Iraq Detainee Abuse

[جوري]

Group Says Iraq Detainee Abuse Was Ongoing
By DAVID B. CARUSO
AP
NEW YORK (July 23) - The group Human Rights Watch said in a report released Sunday that U.S. military commanders encouraged abusive interrogations of detainees in Iraq , even after the Abu Ghraib prison scandal called attention to the issue in 2004.


Between 2003 and 2005, prisoners were routinely physically mistreated, deprived of sleep and exposed to extreme temperatures as part of the interrogation process, the report said.


"Soldiers were told that the Geneva Conventions did not apply, and that interrogators could use abusive techniques to get detainees to talk," wrote John Sifton, a senior researcher at Human Rights Watch.


The organization said it based its conclusion on interviews with military personnel and sworn statements in declassified documents.


A Pentagon spokesman, Cmdr. Greg Hicks, said he wasn't aware of the report, but noted the military is reviewing its procedures regarding detainees following a Supreme Court ruling that the Geneva Conventions should apply in the conflict with al-Qaida.


The Bush administration had previously held that certain enemies, including terrorists, were illegal combatants and not protected by those rules.


The conventions prohibit "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment."


Human Rights Watch focused much of its report on a detention facility called Camp Nama at Baghdad International Airport.


One soldier, whose name was withheld from the report, described a suspected insurgent being stripped naked, thrown in the mud, sprayed with water and then exposed to frigid temperatures in an attempt to soften him up for interrogators.


Commanders, the soldier said, seemed confident that their treatment of prisoners was legal.


He described computerized authorization forms that had to be filled out before subjecting detainees to strobe lights, loud music, extreme heat or cold, or intimidation by barking dogs.


The allegations of abuse at the camp were first reported in March by The New York Times.

[M1A1]

And Americans heads were also being hacked off after Abu Ghraib. I can't beleive you're still getting goofy over this 'dead horse'. You equate and even imply that being 'humiliated' and 'deprived of sleep' is on the same level as having your head sawed off. If you want to scream about the Geneva Convention, where does 'head sawing' come in ? v +o( +o( +o(

[جوري]

I suspected Angelman's syndrome from your previous post... inappropriate laughter at the wrong time.....Last I left it when you invade people for no reason you deserve any form of resistance you get....... or what were you hoping for tropical flowers for eradicating towns and salughtering people by the loads??

[Makky]

And Americans heads were also being hacked off after Abu Ghraib. I can't beleive you're still getting goofy over this 'dead horse'. You equate and even imply that being 'humiliated' and 'deprived of sleep' is on the same level as having your head sawed off. If you want to scream about the Geneva Convention, where does 'head sawing' come in ? v +o( +o( +o(

Why we always Mix up issues togehter?

Does this mean that you agree with what is happening in Abu Ghraib ?

How you justify that ?!

the Iraqi people would kiss the americans heads if they returnd back to thier country . But Americans would just start a war and kill innocents For OIL ( thats if they are not coming in a Holly crusade war as mentioned by Bush)

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[جوري]

The Haditha Massacre
They ranged from little babies to adult males and females. I'll never be able to get that out of my head. I can still smell the blood. This left something in my head and heart.
- Observations of Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones after the Haditha Massacre
On November 19, 2005, Marines from Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division based at Camp Pendleton allegedly killed 24 unarmed civilians in Haditha, Iraq, in a three to five hour rampage. One victim was a 76-year-old amputee in a wheelchair holding a Koran. A mother and child bent over as if in prayer were also among the fallen. "I pretended that I was dead when my brother's body fell on me, and he was bleeding like a faucet," said Safa Younis Salim, a 13-year-old girl who survived by faking her death.

Other victims included girls and boys ages 14, 10, 5, 4, 3 and 1. The Washington Post reported, "Most of the shots ... were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor, doctors at Haditha's hospital said."

The executions of 24 unarmed civilians were conducted in apparent retaliation for the death of Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas when a small Marine convoy hit a roadside bomb earlier that day.

A statement issued by a US Marine Corps spokesman the next day claimed: "A US Marine and 15 civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb in Haditha. Immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire. Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another."

A subsequent Marine version of the events said the victims were killed inadvertently in a running gun battle with insurgents.

Both of these stories were false and the Marines knew it. They were blatant attempts to cover up the atrocity, disguised as "collateral damage."

The Marine Corps paid $38,000 in compensation to relatives of the victims, according to a report in the Denver Post. These types of payments are made only to compensate for accidental deaths inflicted by US troops. This was a relatively large amount, indicating the Marines knew something was not right during that operation, according to Mike Coffman, the Colorado state treasurer who served in Iraq recently as a Marine reservist.

Congressman John Murtha, D-Pa., a former Marine, was briefed on the Haditha investigation by Marine Corps Commandant Michael Hagee. Murtha said Sunday, "The reports I have from the highest level: No firing at all. No interaction. No military action at all in this particular incident. It was an explosive device, which killed a Marine. From then on, it was purely shooting people."

The Haditha massacre did not become public until Time Magazine ran a story about it in March of this year. Time had turned over the results of its investigation, including a videotape, to the US military in January. Only then did the military launch an investigation.

These Marines "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results," a US official told the Los Angeles Times.

"Marines over-reacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said.

Murtha's statement both indicts and exonerates the Marines of the crime of murder.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Premeditation and deliberation - cold-blooded planning - are required for first degree murder. Complete self-defense can be demonstrated by an honest and reasonable belief in the need to defend oneself against death or great bodily injury. The Marines might be able to show that, in the wake of the killing of their buddy Terrazas by an improvised explosive device, they acted in an honest belief that they might be killed in this hostile area. But the belief that unarmed civilians inside their homes posed a deadly threat to the Marines would be unreasonable. An honest but unreasonable belief in the need to defend constitutes imperfect self-defense, which negates the malice required for murder, and reduces murder to manslaughter.

An honest but unreasonable belief in the need to defend constitutes imperfect self-defense, which negates the malice required for murder, and reduces murder to manslaughter.

Many of our troops suffer from post traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD. Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones, a Marine in Kilo Company, did not participate in the Haditha massacre. TJ Terrazas was his best friend. Briones, who was 20 years old at the time, saw Terrazas after he was killed. "He had a giant hole in his chin. His eyes were rolled back up in his skull," Briones said of his buddy.

"A lot of people were mad," Briones said. "Everyone had just a [terrible] feeling about what had happened to TJ."

After the massacre, Briones was ordered to take photographs of the victims and help carry their bodies out of their homes. He is still haunted by what he had to do that day. Briones picked up a young girl who was shot in the head. "I held her out like this," he said, extending his arms, "but her head was bobbing up and down and the insides fell on my legs."

"I used to be one of those Marines who said that post-traumatic stress is a bunch of bull," said Briones, who has gotten into serious trouble since he returned home. "But all this stuff that keeps going through my head is eating me up. I need immediate help."

A key quote from a Marine officer could be used to show premeditation - and thus malice - in support of a possible murder charge against the shooters. An article in yesterday's San Diego Union-Tribune which is reprinted from the New York Times News Service, cites a report by "one Marine officer" that "inspectors suspected at least part of the motive for the killings was to send a message to local residents that they would 'pay a price' for failing to warn the Marines about insurgent activity in the area."

Curiously, that paragraph is missing from the same story in both the print and online editions of yesterday's New York Times. For some reason, the Times had second thoughts about that paragraph, and removed it, after the copy had been sent to other papers over the wire.

Regardless of how those who may ultimately be charged with murder fare in court, a more significant question is whether George W. Bush, **** Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld will be charged with war crimes on a theory of command responsibility.

Willful killing is considered a war crime under the US War Crimes Act. People who commit war crimes can be punished by life in prison, or even the death penalty if the victim dies. Under the doctrine of command responsibility, a commander can be held liable if he knew or should have known his inferiors were committing war crimes and he failed to stop or prevent it.

Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are knowingly prosecuting a war of aggression in Iraq. Under the United Nations Charter, a country cannot invade another country unless it is acting in self-defense or it has permission from the Security Council. Iraq had invaded no country for 11 years before "Operation Iraqi Freedom," and the council never authorized the invasion.

A war that violates the UN Charter is a war of aggression.

Under the Nuremberg Tribunal, aggressive war is the supreme international crime.

Hagee flew from Washington to Iraq last week to brief US forces on the Geneva Conventions, the international laws of armed conflict and the US military's own rules of engagement. He is reportedly telling the troops they should use deadly force "only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful." This creates a strong inference that our leaders had not adequately briefed our troops on how to behave in this war.

This, combined with the evidence that US forces are committing torture based on policies from the highest levels of government, as well as reports of war crimes committed in places such as Fallujah, served to put Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld on notice that Marines would likely commit war crimes in places such as Haditha. Our highest leaders thus should have known this would happen, and they should be prosecuted under the War Crimes Act.

Murtha told ABC there was "no question" the US military tried to "cover up" the Haditha incident, which Murtha called "worse than Abu Ghraib." Murtha's high-level briefings indicated, "There was an investigation right afterward, but then it was stifled," he said.

"Who covered it up, why did they cover it up, why did they wait so long?" Murtha asked on "This Week" on ABC. "We don't know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command."

Murtha said the decision to pay compensation to families of the victims is strong evidence that officers up the chain of command knew what had happened in Haditha. "That doesn't happen at the lowest level. That happens at the highest level before they make a decision to make payments to the families."

Haditha is likely the tip of the iceberg in Bush's illegal war of aggression in Iraq.

"We have a Haditha every day," declared Muhanned Jasim, an Iraqi merchant. "Were [those killed in Haditha] the first ... Iraqis to be killed for no reason?" asked pharmacist Ghasan Jayih. "We're used to being killed. It's normal now to hear 25 Iraqis are killed in one day."

"We have a Fallujah and Karbala every day," Jasim added, referring to the 2004 slaughter by US forces in Fallujah and bombings by resistance fighters in the Shiite city of Karbala.

In Fallujah, US soldiers opened fire on houses, and US helicopters fired on and killed women, old men and young children, according to Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein.

"What we're seeing more of now, and these incidents will increase monthly, is the end result of fuzzy, imprecise national direction combined with situational ethics at the highest levels of this government," said retired Air Force Col. Mike Turner, a former planner at the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Senator John Warner, R-Va., head of the Armed Services Committee, pledged to hold hearings on the Haditha killings at the conclusion of the military investigation. "I'll do exactly what we did with Abu Ghraib," he told ABC News.

Warner's pledge provides little solace to those who seek justice. Congress has yet to hold our leaders to account for the torture by US forces at Abu Ghraib prison. Only a few low-ranking soldiers have been prosecuted. The Bush administration has swept the scandal under the rug.

During the Vietnam War, the US military spoke of winning the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese people. But in 1968, US soldiers massacred about 400 unarmed elderly men, women and children in the small village of My Lai. A cover-up ensued, and it wasn't until Seymour Hersh broke the story that it became public.

"America in the view of many Iraqis has no credibility. We do not believe what they say is correct," said Sheik Sattar al-Aasaaf, a tribal leader in Anbar province, which includes Haditha. "US troops are very well-trained and when they shoot, it isn't random but due to an order to kill Iraqis. People say they are the killers."

Graffiti on one of the Haditha victims' houses reads, "Democracy assassinated the family that was here."

So much for winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

We must pull our troops out of Iraq immediately, and insist that our leaders be held to account for the war crimes committed there.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, President-elect of the National Lawyers Guild, and the US representative to the executive committee of the American Association of Jurists. She writes a weekly column for t r u t h o u t.

[M1A1]

[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;415605]I suspected Angelman's syndrome from your previous post... inappropriate laughter at the wrong time.....[QUOTE]



Where are you finding 'laughter' ? So you condone the sawing off of heads ? Nice. Would it be O.K. if the U.S. hacked off some heads and showed the video on Fox News ?

[جوري]

Why we always Mix up issues togehter?

Does this mean that you agree with what is happening in Abu Ghraib ?

How you justify that ?!

the Iraqi people would kiss the americans heads if they returnd back to thier country . But Americans would just start a war and kill innocents For OIL ( thats if they are not coming in a Holly crusade war as mentioned by Bush)

brother saladin please don't even bother answer back... don't feed the dog and it will die... I am not sure why we even humor people? just in another post a comment by her or him laughing at the suffering of others...... it is a matter that need psychological attention not a counter reply... just ignore it and that which is like it.....

[M1A1]

Why we always Mix up issues togehter?
...

Because the issue is the treatment of prisoners. You can't seriously compare the way the U.S. treated the Abu Ghraib prisoners and the way U.S. prisoners have been treated. Are there any U.S. prisoners being held by the 'insurgents' ? No. Why ? Because they are all dead. Their heads sawed off while they were still alive and their mutilated bodies dumped on the street. How do you compare that to being 'humiliated' and being 'deprived of sleep' ?

[جوري]

so you codone? I am not sure I understand what that means?
but I have a feeling you do as it has depressed your senses sufficiently ..... as for your fox news... well they can dish out what they want.. everyone knows they are repuke con owned and operated..... covering what they wish and faking what they wish

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605120013

[جوري]

Because the issue is the treatment of prisoners. You can't seriously compare the way the U.S. treated the Abu Ghraib prisoners and the way U.S. prisoners have been treated. Are there any U.S. prisoners being held by the 'insurgents' ? No. Why ? Because they are all dead. Their heads sawed off while they were still alive and their mutilated bodies dumped on the street. How do you compare that to being 'humiliated' and being 'deprived of sleep' ?

you are starting to sound like a broken record... I can tell just by the fact that you skipped over the Haditha massacre... carry on

[M1A1]

...just in another post a comment by her or him laughing at the suffering of others...........

Again, Who is laughing, where ? Where are you seeing this ? And don't tell bin saladin what to do. Don't be 'bossy'. He'll do as he pleases. Won't you, saladin ?

[Makky]

Because the issue is the treatment of prisoners. You can't seriously compare the way the U.S. treated the Abu Ghraib prisoners and the way U.S. prisoners have been treated. Are there any U.S. prisoners being held by the 'insurgents' ? No. Why ? Because they are all dead. Their heads sawed off while they were still alive and their mutilated bodies dumped on the street. How do you compare that to being 'humiliated' and being 'deprived of sleep' ?

Go to the root 1st

one question only? and i'm not waiting for your answer?

Is the War on Iraq valid ?

Just keep your soldiers home they will be Okay

this is the opionion of many many Americans that I admire. the majority of the soldiers Families agree with this point.

[جوري]

selective memory loss?
Re: The Shame of Being an American ~ by Paul Craig Roberts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's funny. I am PROUD to be an American.

[M1A1]

you are starting to sound like a broken record... I can tell just by the fact that you skipped over the Haditha massacre... carry on

And you, also my dear. And no I didn't skip Haditha. I think who ever is responsilbe should be tried, and if found guilty, shot. It's all very simple. The same with the rape of the young girl. Catch, try, shoot. Simple. I'm not against punishing crimes. But when the treatment of the Abu Ghraib prisoners gets compared to the treatment of U.S. prisoners, I get P.O.ed. You just can't compare humiliation to head sawing. Impossible.



P.S. You are still 'feeding the dog'

[M1A1]

selective memory loss?
Re: The Shame of Being an American ~ by Paul Craig Roberts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's funny. I am PROUD to be an American.

I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN !!! So what ??

[Makky]

I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN !!! So what ??

So Go Wash your Hand from blood of thousands of innocent people In japan vetnam afghanistan ..... and iraq

[M1A1]

So Go Wash your Hand from blood of thousands of innocent people In japan vetnam afghanistan ..... and iraq

Right back at ya' chief.

[جوري]

I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN !!! So what ??

we were commenting on the "that is funny"
but I guess that was a funny boohoo not a funny haha?

[snakelegs]

And Americans heads were also being hacked off after Abu Ghraib. I can't beleive you're still getting goofy over this 'dead horse'. You equate and even imply that being 'humiliated' and 'deprived of sleep' is on the same level as having your head sawed off. If you want to scream about the Geneva Convention, where does 'head sawing' come in ? v +o( +o( +o(

i don't know why you brought "heads being hacked off" in connection with the tortures at abu ghraib. the head hacker-offers do not hold themselves up as the world saviour, the bringer of freedom and democracy and all that is good.
because of this, the u.s. should be held to a higher standard. i certainly do, regardless of what horrors the head hacker-offers do.

[Woodrow]

I am a little confused as to how the replies are related to the opening topic.

Could some member please write a post as to what issues are debatable in the original topic?

[Makky]

i don't know why you brought "heads being hacked off" in connection with the tortures at abu ghraib. the head hacker-offers do not hold themselves up as the world saviour, the bringer of freedom and democracy and all that is good.
because of this, the u.s. should be held to a higher standard. i certainly do, regardless of what horrors the head hacker-offers do.

^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^

I just want M1A1 read again what you have posted

peace Snakelegs

[Rou]

And Americans heads were also being hacked off after Abu Ghraib. I can't beleive you're still getting goofy over this 'dead horse'. You equate and even imply that being 'humiliated' and 'deprived of sleep' is on the same level as having your head sawed off. If you want to scream about the Geneva Convention, where does 'head sawing' come in ? v +o( +o( +o(

Oh of course your right we should all stop crying over the hundreds and thousands being tortured and raped and killed, the innocent children that suffer unimaginable situations and worry about the western casualties!

say how many were there? a hundred? a thousand?

dont get me wrong any innocent life is sad to lose but to actully sit here and read you saying to leave this "dead horse" as would be...

is just sickening and in response to your sympathetic view of those who suffered in abu ghraib and in iraqi i say stuff what your talking about!

why the hell should we care what your on about!? thousands of our people suffer and you ignore that and call it a "dead horse" and then expect us to care!??

tell you what mate get your head out the sand ok!??

what a joke!? i dont care about those who were beheaded beacuse i think my people are suffering ten fold and i will start worrying about the others once USA,uk and israel have stopped killing MY PEOPLE!!

pathetic!!

[Keltoi]

I don't see anyone suggesting that what has happned to some Iraqi detainees is right, only pointing out the lack of outrage for helpless prisoners who have their heads sawed off by murderers in masks and recording it on video. Of course the U.S. military should be held to a higher standard, but taken into context, with all soldiers knowing what would happen to them if they were taken captive, one should not be surprised that insurgent prisoners aren't treated too well. Not a justification for any of it.

[MRR]

tell you what mate get your head out the sand ok!??

what a joke!? i dont care about those who were beheaded beacuse i think my people are suffering ten fold and i will start worrying about the others once USA,uk and israel have stopped killing MY PEOPLE!!

pathetic!!

Hey, MJF. What abou the Iraqis that were beheaded? Where do they fit into this mess? where were you to speak up then? Who are your people? It seems like your people are responsible for this.

It seems you are only wanting to point the finger at westerners while you continually claim the innocence of your people.

Pathetic.

...

[Rou]

Hey, MJF. What abou the Iraqis that were beheaded? Where do they fit into this mess? where were you to speak up then? Who are your people? It seems like your people are responsible for this.

It seems you are only wanting to point the finger at westerners while you continually claim the innocence of your people.

Pathetic.

...

Lol your well funny mate...

you make me laugh with your strange questions that seem to mean nothing and seem to ask even less...

however i will answer to help you....

My people you know those peeps called muslims!? yep thats them my people...

Iraqis beheaded yes...and what aboutthem again? he werent talking about them you can see that if you bother to read his post!?

he was talking of western beheadings!?

are you just posting for fun!? why dont you try reading the thread first?

And whats a mjf? if ya dont mind me askin..?

[Rou]

I don't see anyone suggesting that what has happned to some Iraqi detainees is right, only pointing out the lack of outrage for helpless prisoners who have their heads sawed off by murderers in masks and recording it on video. Of course the U.S. military should be held to a higher standard, but taken into context, with all soldiers knowing what would happen to them if they were taken captive, one should not be surprised that insurgent prisoners aren't treated too well. Not a justification for any of it.

thats nice to know strange however as people who are raped are civilians if you go and check those who were abused at abu ghraib were also civilians one of them being a mayor of one of the towns...

so again state your point here as your sticking up for people who torture innocents and based on what!?? that there american!? what a joke!?

if muslims torture people i say they are what they are and that is evil..

if they kill innocents i say what they are evil murderers i dont stick up for people based on there religon or race or country seems i cant say the same for many who stick up for the US army....

morals beyond country and race mate...

stick up for those who are right not just beacuse there american...

same here i applaud those american soilders who turned in those soilders who have commited crimes and taken these pictures...

[MRR]

It's too bad that any possible innocent detainees would go through any type of interrogation, or be detained at all. But as for the others, how else should the information be extracted? Tickle torture? Spank them with a feather? No dessert with a meal?
Prisons should not be like 5-star hotels. They should be like, well, prisons. If you are a terrorist, prepare to be terrorised.

[جوري]

It's too bad that any possible innocent detainees would go through any type of interrogation, or be detained at all. But as for the others, how else should the information be extracted? Tickle torture? Spank them with a feather? No dessert with a meal?
Prisons should not be like 5-star hotels. They should be like, well, prisons. If you are a terrorist, prepare to be terrorised.

Question is what are they interrogating them for... Do you really believe the Americans are there to end "terrorism"? I want an honest opinion on that one....after that many yrs have they found what they were looking for? up to and including WMD?

[Rou]

It's too bad that any possible innocent detainees would go through any type of interrogation, or be detained at all. But as for the others, how else should the information be extracted? Tickle torture? Spank them with a feather? No dessert with a meal?
Prisons should not be like 5-star hotels. They should be like, well, prisons. If you are a terrorist, prepare to be terrorised.

yes yes your so right my gosh it all makes sense now..oh hold up what about the fact that out of 800 people in guntanamo where people are tortured beyond belif only 12 or less have een found guilty for the last what 3-4 years now!!!

and what about the fact that those in abu ghraib were civilians and not insurgents!?

oh but all that dont matter they are muslim and americans have arrested them it must be all right in the end hey!?

whatever..no morals...

[MRR]

yes yes your so right my gosh it all makes sense now..oh hold up what about the fact that out of 800 people in guntanamo where people are tortured beyond belif only 12 or less have een found guilty for the last what 3-4 years now!!!

and what about the fact that those in abu ghraib were civilians and not insurgents!?

oh but all that dont matter they are muslim and americans have arrested them it must be all right in the end hey!?

whatever..no morals...

Well the ignorant child that likes to argue has found me again. I think you must like me.
If you are going to make a claim that they are all civilians you need to back it with proof. Once again you post a reply that has nothing to do with what was said. Pathetic. So, anyway, how do you suggest they extract information from the terrorists?

PS LOL! You want to lecture me on morals!? You with your racist view who does not care about anyone that is hurt or killed by muslims?

[Rou]

Well the ignorant child that likes to argue has found me again. I think you must like me.
If you are going to make a claim that they are all civilians you need to back it with proof. Once again you post a reply that has nothing to do with what was said. Pathetic. So, anyway, how do you suggest they extract information from the terrorists?

PS LOL! You want to lecture me on morals!? You with your racist view who does not care about anyone that is hurt or killed by muslims?

Yes ok ?

anyhow as i said go and read the reports on abu ghraib and you will see they are civilians as reported by many western media..

and as for your racist comment!? i have never stated that anyone killed by muslims deserved it...again just beacuse you have said it in your head does not make it reality...i beleive quite the opposite only evil doers deserve such torture and death the innocent of any race have no part in this war...

i dont want this thread shut down due to you lacking the abilty to debate and instead throwing childish personal comments that dont do much or mean much on line...

so how about you try and debate instead of arguing!???

as i stated you can check the media it states clearly they were civilians and a mayor of one of the towns in iraq who was set free after the torture as he was innocent...

[MRR]

and as for your racist comment!? i have never stated that anyone killed by muslims deserved it...

You have changed what I said, again. I did not say you said they deserved it, I said that you don't care about people killed by muslims, you have a callous attitude towards them. You only care about muslims that are killed.

as i stated you can check the media it states clearly they were civilians and a mayor of one of the towns in iraq who was set free after the torture as he was innocent...

Why don't you provide some links, it is your claim. A few civilians in the mix and they should all be let go? That's just silly.

Why don't you answer the question, since it is related to the thread? Here it is again. How would you suggest extracting information from the terrorists? Since we know being 'nice' is not a very good interrogation tactic.

[Keltoi]

I'm sure many people in Abu Ghraib weren't a threat, and I know that many have been "tortured", although I think people have used that label to describe things that aren't torture in most people's minds. That being said, there was obviously a problem in that prison. However, I don't believe it was an isolated incident involving Private John Smith from Rhode Island. The pictures released from Abu Ghraib show obvious military intelligence officers and a few CIA officers. I don't know how far up the chain of command the orders for this style of interrogation were given, but it was the common soldier, who in my opinion were only following orders, that took the fall. I could be wrong, perhaps it was only prison guards who engaged in this behavior, but I have my doubts.

[MRR]

I'm sure many people in Abu Ghraib weren't a threat, and I know that many have been "tortured", although I think people have used that label to describe things that aren't torture in most people's minds. That being said, there was obviously a problem in that prison. However, I don't believe it was an isolated incident involving Private John Smith from Rhode Island. The pictures released from Abu Ghraib show obvious military intelligence officers and a few CIA officers. I don't know how far up the chain of command the orders for this style of interrogation were given, but it was the common soldier, who in my opinion were only following orders, that took the fall. I could be wrong, perhaps it was only prison guards who engaged in this behavior, but I have my doubts.

I agree with your entire post. In this thread we have 'claims' being made that most of the detainees were innocent. We also seem to have a general idea circulating that prisons should be like day camp. Like I said before, if you are a terrorists, prepare to be terrorised. The information cannot be extracted by beating them with feathers.

[Rou]

You have changed what I said, again. I did not say you said they deserved it, I said that you don't care about people killed by muslims, you have a callous attitude towards them. You only care about muslims that are killed.


Why don't you provide some links, it is your claim. A few civilians in the mix and they should all be let go? That's just silly.

Why don't you answer the question, since it is related to the thread? Here it is again. How would you suggest extracting information from the terrorists? Since we know being 'nice' is not a very good interrogation tactic.

LOL your not listening are you..they were all civilkians...

and your saying i should provide proof for general knowledge? im not the one who does not beleive my friend why dont you go and look before you talk..and you will clearly see that they were civilians..

and as for dealing with terroprists bring real justice and there wont be a need for terrorisem..

and again i will explain so that you can understand clearly..

i have stated no where that i dont care about those who have died by muslim hands as those who have died in things like 9/11 deserved none of it as they were innocents..

---

[Keltoi]

LOL your not listening are you..they were all civilkians...

and your saying i should provide proof for general knowledge? im not the one who does not beleive my friend why dont you go and look before you talk..and you will clearly see that they were civilians..

and as for dealing with terroprists bring real justice and there wont be a need for terrorisem..

and again i will explain so that you can understand clearly..

i have stated no where that i dont care about those who have died by muslim hands as those who have died in things like 9/11 deserved none of it as they were innocents..

what i explained to you my little ignorant friend was that the uncaring attitude and racist view you have will only mirror at you that why should we muslims care for those who have been beheaded when your showing no emotion to the thousands dead!

but once again your messed up little mind has changed this to a view of hate that suits you and people like you!?

I don't think it is helpful to suggest all the detainees in Abu Ghraib were innocent, no more than it is to suggest all the detainees deserved to be there. There were plenty of really bad customers in Abu Ghraib. That being said...you say they were all "civilians"...what are you saying? That none of the prisoners were part of the Iraqi army?

[Rou]

I don't think it is helpful to suggest all the detainees in Abu Ghraib were innocent, no more than it is to suggest all the detainees deserved to be there. There were plenty of really bad customers in Abu Ghraib. That being said...you say they were all "civilians"...what are you saying? That none of the prisoners were part of the Iraqi army?

I~s aid they wre civilians i did not say they wre innocent...

if i stated every last one was innocent that would be diffrent it would be absurd to say they were all innocents..majority were innocent and majority were civilians.

[MRR]

heheh little arms lol as i said this aint real life so keep taunting as long as your safe and sound behind your monitor your fine the day you stepped up to a real man mate serious you would learn your lesson...

i bet your around 16-18 kids always beleive themselves to be brave at this point trust me child the day you get in to a real fight you wont be asking for them...

now are you going to continue trying to pick a fight that will never go anywhere unless you had the guts to step up in to real life that im sure you dont...

whos trying to play the innocent!? im trying to defuse your ignorance but you just seem to want to fight..lol children..

did you go and check indeed they were civilians and? wheres your answer toyou misguided thoughts!?

people like you will never learn just keep thinking your right lol and then calling other racist on false pretenses have you looked in the mirror latley!??

Clowns are funny. Do you deny that you have been picking fights with people and then running to the mods? Pathetic troublemaker. As soon as someone stands up to you, you suddenly are the "stick to the thread" guy.

Shut your piehole with the insults to every person that holds a different opinion than you.
Why would I check your worthless claim? If you want to makea point, back it up. Otherwise shut up.

calling other racist on false pretenses

It was you that said that you didn't care about nonmuslims that were killed by muslims.

[MRR]

It's too bad that any possible innocent detainees would go through any type of interrogation, or be detained at all. But as for the others, how else should the information be extracted? Tickle torture? Spank them with a feather? No dessert with a meal?
Prisons should not be like 5-star hotels. They should be like, well, prisons. If you are a terrorist, prepare to be terrorised.

So, to add to my earlier point. It is interesting that many people that call for the punishment of criminals and fighting oppression, also oppose treating prisoners as prisoners. How are you supposed to treat criminals? What is just punishment? How do you get information? You can't just ask nicely.

[Keltoi]

That is why I'm slightly uncomfortable with the contention that people are being "tortured" by the U.S. military. If we go by the word of some of the most outspoken 'human rights" groups, not fluffing the prisoners pillow before he sleeps at night is torture. By the standards set by these same groups, every prison in the U.S. is torturing inmates. I think we need to be realist here about what torture actually is. Most people hear that the U.S. is "torturing" prisoners and automatically see dark rooms with men electrocuting, stabbing, cutting, breaking bones, beating, etc. Of course the truth is something quite different. No denying that bad things happened in Abu Ghraib, and while not necessarily torture, was meant to humiliate people. I'm speaking mainly about the people who say prisoners are being "tortured" at Gitmo and elsewhere. The International Red Cross has had access to Gitmo and could come to no such conslusion. Most of this is hyperbole and myth, tied in with conspiracy theories and political dissent.

[Muhammad]

Greetings and :sl: ,

I must say that these arguments are quite frequent in this section, and it is often the same members too. Unfortunately we cannot read all the threads in their entirety, especially since they tend to drag on quite a lot, therefore investigating who started which argument and who is to blame becomes very difficult and time consuming. Members have helped by reporting posts and these are not limited to those involved in the thread.

It has to be said that such argumentative behaviour and insults do not have a place on this forum. Many times a reasonable topic degrades into poor dialogue that leads to the closure of that thread. Please try to remain respectful and calm in your posts, despite the difficulty of this in this section. If a member posts something offensive, you should report their post so that the problem is dealt with at the beginning, rather than responding alternately until a fight has broken out.

If members do not improve on this issue, then we must give warning points to try and prevent these things from re-occurring. I hope you will all take note of this request and help to create a friendly environment with respectful dialogue, thank you :).

Peace.

[MRR]

The fact that prisoners are civilians is completely irrelevent. Most are civilians throughout the prisons in the world. They are still criminals. When these people were captured in Iraq, I am sure a few were caught up in misunderstandings, sweeps, etc. But the vaste majority were caught actually criminals.

[MRR]

Personally, when I think of some of the crimes that people are locked up for, I see torture as too good for them. The punishment is never enough for murder, etc.

[جوري]

Personally, when I think of some of the crimes that people are locked up for, I see torture as too good for them. The punishment is never enough for murder, etc.

was it you that thought an eye for eye was barbaric? if not I apologize but this discussion went on in another forum and the poster thought punishment befitting the crime as per God's shari'a was archaic and uncivilized.... Let it be note it a non-muslim thinks torture is too good for some.....

[MRR]

was it you that thought an eye for eye was barbaric? if not I apologize but this discussion went on in another forum and the poster thought punishment befitting the crime as per God's shari'a was archaic and uncivilized.... Let it be note it a non-muslim thinks torture is too good for some.....

No, not me. I am all for criminals suffering more than the victim. Unfortunatly, that isn't possible in cases like murder. The vitims are the entire family, and how do you measure the suffering?
Anyway, no, not me. An eye for an eye is a good thing.

[Rou]

was it you that thought an eye for eye was barbaric? if not I apologize but this discussion went on in another forum and the poster thought punishment befitting the crime as per God's shari'a was archaic and uncivilized.... Let it be note it a non-muslim thinks torture is too good for some.....

Sister why bother those who are lost are nothing in this world let them carry on with there evil ways,how evil can they get thats what allah wants to see how heartless can they get..

they will never listen to sense they are lost and like to stay lost...evil doers will get what they deserve in the end...

[جوري]

No, not me. I am all for criminals suffering more than the victim. Unfortunatly, that isn't possible in cases like murder. The vitims are the entire family, and how do you measure the suffering?
Anyway, no, not me. An eye for an eye is a good thing.

Thank you... also let it also be noted that if the victim wishes to forgive... that too is allowed as per God's sharia'a....

[جوري]

Sister why bother those who are lost are nothing in this world let them carry on with there evil ways,how evil can they get thats what allah wants to see how heartless can they get..

they will never listen to sense they are lost and like to stay lost...evil doers will get what they deserve in the end...

I am hoping through dialogue there can be an understanding ... sometimes it works ... most of the time it doesn't ... under both conditions opinions of others aren't very earth shattering or mind changing.... pretty much like world diplomatic relations... lol

[MRR]

I am hoping through dialogue there can be an understanding ... sometimes it works ... most of the time it doesn't ... under both conditions opinions of others aren't very earth shattering or mind changing.... pretty much like world diplomatic relations... lol

Ambrosia,
thank you for your rational discussion. You will notice that you and I have little difficulty being civil to each other. I will admit that has more to do with your demeanor than mine. My point in mentioning this is that when dealing with rational, civil people, I too will be rational and civil. WHen I deal with an obnoxious fool, then unfortunatly, it rubs off on me. And recently, I've been dealing with a real ignorant, obnoxious, fool.

[Rou]

I am hoping through dialogue there can be an understanding ... sometimes it works ... most of the time it doesn't ... under both conditions opinions of others aren't very earth shattering or mind changing.... pretty much like world diplomatic relations... lol

Let the ignorant be sister... i have tried many times but look today when israel kills UN officals still nothing is done even while warned 10 times they still crried on...

and look at those in denial they continue blindly down the same path still protecting israel!?

unfortunatly i think muslims should wake up there will beno justice at the hands of mad men we must stop the evil from hurting our people...

and those who deny are on there path i feel sorry for themi dont wish harm on them they have enough problems without that...i just thank allah he has given me the sense to see better they day by day prove to me that our path is clearly without question the true path...

[جوري]

Let the ignorant be sister... i have tried many times but look today when israel kills UN officals still nothing is done even while warned 10 times they still crried on...

and look at those in denial they continue blindly down the same path still protecting israel!?

unfortunatly i think muslims should wake up there will beno justice at the hands of mad men we must stop the evil from hurting our people...

and those who deny are on there path i feel sorry for themi dont wish harm on them they have enough problems without that...i just thank allah he has given me the sense to see better they day by day prove to me that our path is clearly without question the true path...

jazaka Allah khyr.... my advise to you as a sister is to try not to get too emotionally involved with any post.... read this please...A man came to the Prophet one day and said, "Advise me". The Prophet said, "Don't become angry. Don't become angry. Don't become angry... when one of you gets angry while he is standing up, he should sit down. Then anger will leave him, and if not then he should lie down" .So let us follow this beautiful advice of the Prophet and remember that anger is from satan. If someone angers you or swears at you then don't harm yourself by doing the same, but respond in a better way as Allah says in the Qur'an "Repel evil with what is better. Then he who was your worst enemy will become your best friend." (Qur'an 41:33)

[جوري]

Ambrosia,
thank you for your rational discussion. You will notice that you and I have little difficulty being civil to each other. I will admit that has more to do with your demeanor than mine. My point in mentioning this is that when dealing with rational, civil people, I too will be rational and civil. WHen I deal with an obnoxious fool, then unfortunatly, it rubs off on me. And recently, I've been dealing with a real ignorant, obnoxious, fool.

I agree we should all have a rational discussion... it was ordained to us by God...Unfortunately tempers flare here and on blogs in general and I can't explain it ... when a person stands too much on the left the other has to stand too much on the right it is almost a law of thermodynamics I can't tell? Or maybe it is a psychological phenomenon that such posts bring out patriotism or religious zeal ... it is the usage of some words ... it is inflammatory from both sides... I can only combat it by reaching out for the fundamentals from the quran..

For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48

Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13

[Muezzin]

We're straying into a slanging match. Let's all stay on-topic, please.

[جوري]

I think you both should just agree to disagree amicably right here right now TODAY.......... No one on this forum is immune from temper flares.... God knows I advise against anger yet feel the urge to pummel one or two people daily..... let's just move beyond that from this moment onward...

[MRR]

No, not me. I am all for criminals suffering more than the victim. Unfortunatly, that isn't possible in cases like murder. The vitims are the entire family, and how do you measure the suffering?
Anyway, no, not me. An eye for an eye is a good thing.

Thank you... also let it also be noted that if the victim wishes to forgive... that too is allowed as per God's sharia'a....

How about capital punishment? How do you feel about that? After a prisoner that has murdered someone has served any useful purpose (ie. extracted information, etc), do you see any purpose in keeping them alive?

[جوري]

How about capital punishment? How do you feel about that? After a prisoner that has murdered someone has served any useful purpose (ie. extracted information, etc), do you see any purpose in keeping them alive?

You know that is a good question... I really don't know ... firstly it is a hypothetical and I'd like to know what surrounds a case before I pass judgment secular or religious ... and secondly I am not well versed in the doctrine as it pertains to a judicial system ... to be honest all my learning in geared toward science not the law and certainly not Islamic law which is a very broad topic... So I couldn't give you an answer that would be consciously correct... I do know that it aims toward the victim more.…and I'll give you two examples and any Muslims bros. or sister that know a the proper hadith is welcome to jump in here and help out....
Once Omar Ibn Ilkhtab may Allah be pleased with him was walking ... and he had quite a presence about him ... so he came into a place "all of a sudden" that a particular pregnant lady was shocked by him that she miscarried and blamed him for her miscarriage .. it seemed like a ridiclous claim that he had caused her miscarriage but the judge ruled in her favor... Against Omar Ibn ilkhtab in the way of unintentional murder... I don't know if that corresponds to second degree murder?... so that is one example
And another time when someone stole the sword of Ali Ibn Abi talib, but Ali couldn't prove it was his in the court and so it was ruled in favor of the robber.....So even though there would be swift punishment for such an offense the man got away scotch free... his conscious actually led him ro return the stolen goods... which in and of itself is another rarity.. I don't know if these examples help you at all by shedding some light on how things might pan out.....but there really is a very complex judicial system that was set and I can't simply pass guesses on how it is implemented....

[searchingsoul]

I don't think that prison abuse and decapitation compare. Abuse it done in secret. Decapitations are done boastfully and proudly.