The Muslim World Today!

[madeenahsh]

Bismillaahir-Rahmaanir-Raheem



InnAl-Hamdu lillaahi Rabbil-'Aalameen as-Salaatu was-Sallam ar-Rasoulullah ar-kareem, amma b’ad…



My dear brothers and sisters



When one looks at what is happening in the world today and how Muslims the world over are being massacred it brings great sadness to the heart, if one part of the Muslim Ummah feels pain then the whole Ummah should feel that pain.



It is not surprising to see Muslims in emotional states; however, such emotions can be dangerous if they are not channelled via the sea of knowledge in light of the Qur’aan and Sunnah as understood by the Sahaabah (radee Allaahu ‘anhum).



I am not saying that one should not feel pain and that one should not feel sadness, but what I am saying is that we should not act on our emotions; rather, we should act only upon knowledge.



Today we see that every group brings their own ideology believing that their methodology with regards to the manner in which to revive the Ummah is that which is correct, or they say that you have your methodology, they have theirs and we have ours and that there is no problem in having all of these different methodologies – However, Allaah says in the Qur’aan:



“…To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear methodology…” (Soorah al-Maa’idah 5:48)



So what has been prescribed for us is not numerous and different methodologies; rather, what has been prescribed for us is one clear way, one clear methodology. To further emphasise the point I will make mention of the hadeeth in which the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) drew a straight line in the sand and said:



“This is the path of Allaah.”



Then he (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) drew lines branching off from its left and its right. Then he (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said:



“These are (other) paths and at the head of each of them is a Shaytaan calling to them.”



He (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) then recited the following ayah in which Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) told the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) to say:



“And verily, this is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become al-Muttaqun (the pious).” (Soorah al-An’am 6:153) (An-Nisaa’ee & Ahmad)



But today the majority of the Muslims believe that the rectification of the Muslim Ummah is open to ijtihad and by this they mean that they can bring their own solutions and seek to rectify the Ummah according to what they believe is correct, but what they believe is based merely on their own personal opinions or the opinions of the group or party that they belong to.



The correction and rectification of the Muslim Ummah is not something which is based on opinions and reasoning, nor is it something which is based on whims and desires, nor is it something which is left to ones intellect, it is not a matter left to ijtihad; rather, the correction and rectification is something that in order to do requires textual proofs, that is textual proofs from the Qur’aan and Sunnah as understood by the Sahaabah (radee Allaahu ‘anhum).



Imaam Maalik said (to paraphrase); the later part of the Ummah will not be fixed except by that which fixed the former part. So our Ummah will not be corrected except by that which fixed the affairs of the Muslim Ummah during the former part, i.e. except by that which fixed the affairs of the Muslims during the time of the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and his companions (radee Allaahu ‘anhum).



So what was it that fixed the affairs during their time?



The Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam):



“When you deal in eena (a type of interest) and you hold onto the tails of cows and you are content with agriculture and you abandon jihad, Allaah will inflict humiliation upon you and will not remove it until you return to your religion.” (As-Saheehah, No. 11)



This hadeeth makes it clear that when we deal in interest, become content with this world whilst chasing after its vanities and abandon jihad Allaah will send a humiliation upon us, and is it not the case that we (the Muslims) are being humiliated?



This humiliation is not something merely imposed on us by the Americans, the British or the Jews as some of the ignorant think, they may be the means but they are certainly not the cause; rather, this humiliation has been inflicted on us because of what our own hands have earned, that is because we have left our religion.



Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) says:



“And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much.” (Soorah ash-Shura 42:30)



And He (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) says:



“Evil has appeared on land and sea because of what the hands of men have earned (by oppression and evil deeds, etc.), that Allaah may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return (by repenting to Allaah, and begging His Pardon).” (Soorah ar-Rum 30:41)



The solution and the means by which the Ummah will be rectified are clear, and that is as the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said:



“…return to your religion.”



Shaykh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albaanee mentioned that returning to the religion is something that requires, as per the expression in the lands of Shaam, for us to “shrug our shoulders”; it is something which requires effort and action.



“…return to your religion”, and by this what is meant is the correct religion, and that is that which the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah (radee Allaahu ‘anhum) were upon from correct belief in Allaah, His Messenger (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and His religion and implementation of that belief and character. It is not that which we find the majority of the Islamic groups, parties and individuals calling to and being upon today.



The Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said:



“It will soon be that the nations invite to you, just as guests are invited to partake of a serving tray.” It was asked: “Is it because we will be few at that time?” He (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) replied: “Rather you will be numerous at that time. But you will be scum, like the scum of the torrent, and Allaah will remove the fear of you from your enemies’ chests and He (Subahana Wa Ta’ala) will fill your hearts with wahn.” The Sahaabah (radee Allaahu ‘anhum) asked: “O Messenger of Allaah! What is wahn?” He (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “The love of the world, and the hatred of death.” (Aboo Daawood)



So the Prophet (sall-Allaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) prophesised in this hadeeth that we would be in the situation that we (the Muslims) now find ourselves in, and we find in the Qur’aan and Sunnah many ayat and ahadeeth that clearly show us the reasons as to why we (the Muslims) are in this situation – However, we find that many of the Muslims wish to blame everyone other than themselves and this stands in staunch contradiction to the textual proofs we find in the Qur’aan and Sunnah.



We see and hear the Muslims blaming this person and that person, this group and that group, this country and that country, the Americans, the British and the Jews. No Muslim denies that those who wage war on Islam and the Muslims, torture our brothers, rape our sisters and kill our children are blameworthy, but are they to blame or should we also share in that blame?



As I have already cited, Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) says:



“And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much.” [Soorah ash-Shura (42):30]



What we witness is Muslims failing to accept that we, as an Ummah, are to blame for our humiliation. It is as if they believe that it is the kuffaar who regulate the affairs of the world, have they forgotten that nothing happens without the permission of Allaah and that it is He who controls everything? The reasons as to why this humiliation is happening to us (the Muslims) have already proceeded in the form of just some of the textual proofs bought fourth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah.



Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta’aala) says in the Qur’aan:



“Allaah has promised to those among you who believe and do righteous actions that He will certainly grant them Khilafah (succession) (to the present rulers) on the earth, as He granted it to those before them; and that He will grant them authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And that He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whosoever disbelieved after this, they are the Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allaah).” (Soorah an-Noor 24:55)



So Allaah has promised us victory, but He has set conditions:



1) that we believe in Allaah (correctly)

2) that we do righteous actions

3) that we worship Him (obedience is worship), and

4) that we do not associate anything in worship with Him, i.e. we do not commit Shirk



Just one look at the Ummah is all that is needed to see how far we (the Muslims) are from fulfilling these conditions, moreover, one look at ourselves is enough to see how much we fall short in fulfilling these conditions.



So what is needed for the revival and what is the methodology for doing so?



I shall finish by quoting the words of Shaykh Muhammad Nasir-ud-Deen al-Albaanee:



“Therefore, the key to a return of the glory of Islam is the implementation of beneficial knowledge and the establishing of righteous and correct actions and this is a very great affair which the Muslims cannot reach, except through the methodology of tasfiyyah (purification and correction) and tarbiyyah (education and cultivation). These being two very great obligations:



By the first of these (i.e. tasfiyyah), the following is intended:



Purifying the Islamic Aqeedah from that which is alien to it, such as shirk, ta’teel (rejection of Allaah’s attributes) ta’weel (twisting the meaning of Allaah’s attributes), refusing authentic ahadeeth, because they are connected to matters of Aqeedah and their like. Purifying the Islamic fiqh from erroneous judgments which are contrary to the Qur’aan and Sunnah, freeing the minds from the fetters of blind following and the darkness of sectarianism and party spirit. Purifying the books of tafseer, fiqh and raqaaq (matters pertaining to the heart) and other than that from ahadeeth, which are weak and fabricated, or the unsupported narrations from the people of the Book, and the reprehensible narrations.



As regards the second obligation (i.e. tarbiyyah), then by it I mean: cultivating the young generation upon this Islam, purified from all that we have mentioned, giving to them a correct Islamic education from the start - without any influence from the disbelieving western education. There is no doubt that bringing these two obligations about requires huge efforts and sincere cooperation between all Muslims, individuals and groups, from all those who are truly concerned with establishing the desired Islamic society, each one working in his own field and specialty.”



O Muslims, “…return to your religion.”



Wallaahu ta’aala ‘aalam!



Subahanaka Allaahuma wa bihamdika ashadu a laa illa illah anta astagfirouka wa at-tabu ilaik.



Was-salaamu ‘alaikum



Your brother



Zakariya Aboo Uthmaan

[catmando]

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

[جوري]

We have been through worst 200 years of killing on the hands of the crusades ... not just a 5 year holocaust ... and lots of trimming on the side here and there since..... and continuing.....
Also you can pursue knowledge wherever... thought that was part of the "freedom" and "tolerance" that the west boasts about..... If your tolerance and "freedom" applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. ..

[Fishman]

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

:sl:
Actually there are loads of Islamic schools in the West, and courses for people who can't go to these schools.
:w:

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[Keltoi]

We have been through worst 200 years of killing on the hands of the crusades ... not just a 5 year holocaust ... and lots of trimming on the side here and there since..... and continuing.....
Also you can pursue knowledge wherever... thought that was part of the "freedom" and "tolerance" that the west boasts about..... If your tolerance and "freedom" applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. ..

No point bringing the Crusades into this. Pope Urban is dead, as well as all the Popes who called for death to the "infidel." If a Crusade existed today, the nations of Europe would be slaughtering Jews and reclaiming the Holy Land for Christendom. There is no Crusade, only politics and national self-interest.

[جوري]

No point bringing the Crusades into this. Pope Urban is dead, as well as all the Popes who called for death to the "infidel." If a Crusade existed today, the nations of Europe would be slaughtering Jews and reclaiming the Holy Land for Christendom. There is no Crusade, only politics and national self-interest.

I have no reservations on not brining it into this ... but you did pose the questions of what we have or haven't been through... You can't pose a questions and then be all abrasive when you don't like the reply given...

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No point bringing the Crusades into this. Pope Urban is dead, as well as all the Popes who called for death to the "infidel." If a Crusade existed today, the nations of Europe would be slaughtering Jews and reclaiming the Holy Land for Christendom. There is no Crusade, only politics and national self-interest.

Then i can say theres no point in bringing up the Holocaust!!! Hitler is dead too!

[Keltoi]

I have no reservations on not brining it into this ... but you did pose the questions of what we have or haven't been through... You can't pose a questions and then be all abrasive when you don't like the reply given...

I don't remember posing a question. As for being not liking the reply, it has nothing to do with being abrasive, the topic of the Crusades has no relevance to modern political and military events.

[Brother_Mujahid]

Yaddayaddayadda.

may i suggest you go see a local psychiatrist.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Why not? Its still killing against people of a different faith just like everything else.

[Keltoi]

Then i can say theres no point in bringing up the Holocaust!!! Hitler is dead too!

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Plz read wat i jus said buddy.

[جوري]

I don't remember posing a question. As for being not liking the reply, it has nothing to do with being abrasive, the topic of the Crusades has no relevance to modern political and military events.

The holocaust has no relevance today either ... it is over ... it shaped all our collective world....movie rights, memorabilia...no shortage of the cash pile from the offenders not to mention someone else's land for comp.... If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

[Ghazi]

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

Typical, can I ask what's the point off-topic you got an issue liked discussed start a thread.

[Keltoi]

Plz read wat i jus said buddy.

I did read it. Fail to see your point. Unless you assume that there is a concerted effort to kill Muslims because of their religion, which I don't believe is the case.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

:sl:
Actually there are loads of Islamic schools in the West, and courses for people who can't go to these schools.
:w:

Roger that...plz do us a favor catmando and dont embarass urself.

[Fishman]

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

:sl:
If the views of certain American (or Israeli) politicians ever become mainstream, then the Muslims probably would suffer a holocaust. A few months ago I would have said Islam was the most hated and misunderstood major religion in the world. I think recently it's been replaced by Judaism, thanks to all the stuff happening in the Middle East, and the fact that Western countries have started to realise that they were badly misunderstanding Muslims.
:w:

[Keltoi]

The holocaust has no relevance today either ... it is over ... it shaped all our collective world....movie rights, memorabilia...no shortage of the cash pile from the offenders not to mention someone else's land for comp.... If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

I don't think of the Holocaust much when I consider the modern state of Israel. They are victims no longer. The only connection to the Holocaust I think of when contemplating Israel and its actions is a desire to never allow Jews to become victims again, which seems to make Israel quite aggressive and possibly too aggressive when protecting its self-interest.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I did read it. Fail to see your point. Unless you assume that there is a concerted effort to kill Muslims because of their religion, which I don't believe is the case.

How would you know that? Are you the all knowing?

[Keltoi]

How would you know that? Are you the all knowing?

Is this comment directed towards me? If so, clarify what you are speaking about.

*All knowing? No, only my belief, which I stated. If you believe there is a concerted effort to kill Muslims because of their religion I would like to read your justification for such a belief.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont feel the need to repeat myself like a broken record. Go back to my post and see what comment of urs i quoted.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

[adi8putra]

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

Hahaha, u r rite there! The Holocaust is still a relevant topic! Hmm, why dont we asked the German who started all of these Holocaust to grant the state of Israel anywhere within their own current boundary? Or perhaps to the most staunch protector of Israel, the US? When does the logics of `someone burns ur house, and to get even (or in some instances, in order to survive) u burn someone else's house' have any relevance here? Furthermore, the Zionist claims that the current state of Israel is rightly bestowed to them by God since time immemorable? Where does this argument has any validity now as in ur reference to the crusades? Please be partial in ur judgement....:rollseyes

[Fishman]

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

:sl:
And I go to Islamic classes on mondays!
:w:

[Trumble]

If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

[جوري]

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

Sure it is relevant ... if you scroll through previous threads you'll see a post on the affairs of Muslims killing each other ... and how since the days of the messenger (PBUH) it was deeply devastating and frowned upon and we are told it would lead to eternal damnation in the hereafter...Ignorance breeds hatred and unfortunately not every Muslim out there is either observant or a scholar ... we would be deluding ourselves if we thought we were all of same class or same intellectual capabilities ...Same socioeconomic condition ... it is incumbent upon all of us to change what we can. through charity, teaching or whatever means. ... Any society muslim or not needs to work on that ... there are no utopias on earth.. you are welcome to name me one as I am in desperate need of a vacation... I digress.....However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own ... you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

[Trumble]

However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur.

you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

Actually, I can honestly tell you that there are none, because as far as I am aware my living blood relatives (with whom I have ever had any contact, anyway) number precisely two - my parents. I guess I argue with Mrs Trumble and scold baby Trumble on occasion, but its hardly what I'd call a "feud"!

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel.

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

[scentsofjannah]

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering..we do recognise also that others suffered..we donot make any attempts to present ourselves as the most tragic case or as the 'sole' sufferers of injustice..like some people do.

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

Madrassa for your information means School..it can mean a secular one teaching worldly subjects or one teaching purely reliigous sciences...and they do exist in western countries..here in the UK its estimated that about 200,000 children attend Islamic lessons in their local mosques daily.

[Fishman]

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering.

:sl:
Don't forget what happened in China and Ethiopia.
:w:

[scentsofjannah]

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

how do you even dare to judge it as hypocricy when all you watch is SKY AND BBC etc?? if you want to see what the muslims are doing..turn on Arab Channels, the Islam Channel..they had many live charity appeals for many muslim countries..go to Muslim Internet sites like Islamonline.net and they did talk and report about this crisis ..see the work of the Muslim Relief Organisations there like Islamic Relief, Muslim Hands, Little Kindness -Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens charity and he also went there too along with his wife ..you have no right to call it hypocrisy..neglect..yes by the oil rich arab presidents..who even dont even care about the suffering and starving in their own backyard let alone care about other needy muslims from far away countries.

btw you remind me of many other nonmuslims who always ask me why havent the muslims condemned 911 or 77 in tired of all these questions..so i just tell them ..where were you when the mainstream news covered the muslim response the vigils the demos..the peace rallies?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

Inshallah.
This life is but chattels of deception.
The onli thing that will matter is the hereafter.

[جوري]

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur..

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it... It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel."!

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

Muslims killing Muslims it is true but, Muslims are also saving non-msulims, where there was indeed a political conflict and without the help of westerners .... I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? .... There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews,”

“I know people in America think Muslims are terrorists, but for Rwandans they were our freedom fighters during the genocide,” said Jean Pierre Sagahutu, 37, a Tutsi who converted to Islam from Catholicism after his father and nine other members of his family were slaughtered, the paper reported.

“I wanted to hide in a church, but that was the worst place to go. Instead, a Muslim family took me. They saved my life.”
these aren't my words you can check the washington post archives.. washington post from my previous reading of it is one most strident with anti-Islamic articles yet
The Post quoted Habimana, the chief mufti in Rwanda saying: “Islam fits into the fabric of our society. It helps those who are in poverty. It preaches against behaviors that create AIDS. It offers education in the Koran and Arabic when there is not a lot of education being offered. I think people can relate to Islam. They are converting as a sign of appreciation to the Muslim community who sheltered them during the genocide.”

[catmando]

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

I brought the Holocaust up for a reason. To show that Muslims haven't really suffered like some others have. Muslims don't fit the profile of being victims nearly as well as others do.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

We dont intend to say that to anyone however u may take it. It is true not only Muslims have suffered, but whether it be little or not.. they have always suffered from the start. Same with others as well. Why would we deny it. Its hardly possible.

[Trumble]

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it...

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find

The conflict concerns the rebel forces of Darfur which the Sudan government has labeled as insurgents and the government-controlled Janjaweed.

There has been a series of military dictatorships since 1958, and following independence in 1956, the Sudanese government acquired a strong Arab character. The First Sudanese Civil War, between the Muslim government and the mostly non-Muslim population of the southern Sudan, began in 1955 and ended with the 1972 Addis Ababa Accords. In 1983, the Second Sudanese Civil War ensued when the president declared Sharia law in the south. Peace conferences in 2005 ended the 21-year civil war and produced an agreement under which state revenues — oil money in particular — would be shared between the government and the southern rebel groups.

In early 2003, two local rebel groups — the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) — accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs in favor of Arabs. The SLM is generally associated with the Fur and Masalit, while the JEM is associated with the Zaghawa of the northern half of Darfur.

There is also an eastern front in Sudan. The Eastern Front was set up in 2004 as an alliance between two eastern tribal rebel groups, the Rashaida tribe's Free Lions and the Beja Congress. They were later joined by the Darfuri Justice and Equality Movement (JEM).

Hassan al-Turabi was put in jail in March 2004 in connection with an alleged coup plot linked with JEM, [8] [9] but denies supporting JEM. [10] However, al-Turabi blames the government for "aggravating the situation." The government dropped charges on December 3, 2004...

It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?

I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? ....

It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.

There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews

Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

[جوري]

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find






No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?




Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?



It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.



Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

Yup sorry about dafur I confused it with a town in Iraq.. my bad....
Rwanda was ignored but there were those who helped I hazard say the same people who appear to be the focus as the conflict in most situtions... Now with that behinde us.... I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

[Trumble]

I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

[جوري]

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Thank you.... I appreciate your well wishes... I am shivering and it is the height of summer...:exhausted

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oo0o sounds bad..feel better :)

[Keltoi]

Thank you.... I appreciate your well wishes... I am shivering and it is the height of summer...:exhausted

Summer colds and flu are the worst of the bunch, and in my case usually lead to strep throat and being invalid for three weeks. Good luck.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

My back is like out...>.< i woke up in pain and then a lil while later i kinda froze...couldnt move..! gettin better now..ok i know this is def off topic :p

[جوري]

Thank you both I think..... lol
suffering humanizes the soul you know.......=)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

lol..see how it peaceful it made us to each other>.< oyeee
neways back to topic???? pffff

[Keltoi]

Back on topic, what do you think of a NATO peace-keeping force in Lebanon to separate Israel and Hezbollah, with the intention of pushing Hezbollah out of missile range of Israeli cities? This seems to be the most likely outcome from this conflict.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If theyre gunna do that they should separate both instead of one. Equal it out. If they expect peace then they have to stop both. well i think, dunno.

[Keltoi]

If theyre gunna do that they should separate both instead of one. Equal it out. If they expect peace then they have to stop both. well i think, dunno.

Well, that would stop both. Israel would leave Lebanon and an international peace-keeping force would act as a buffer between Hezbollah and Israeli territory.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I mean, regardless of whos right or wrong, if u only stop one it wont work out too well. But the onli thing their focusing on is stopping Hezbollah. I doubt it would work. I doubt either side would stop. Israel wants the attacks to go on for a few more weeks.