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catmando
07-27-2006, 02:23 PM
This is what happens when amateurs are appointed to professional posts.


Published on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 by the Guardian / UK
At the Heart of the Lebanon Crisis Lie the Lethal Mistakes Of George Bush
Instead of pursuing a Middle East peace deal, the White House's big idea has been to bomb people into democracy
by Jonathan Freedland


It was meant to be over by now. This time last week Israeli military planners were demanding another 72 hours to finish the job: that's all they needed, they promised, to clear southern Lebanon of Hezbollah. Yet the enemy has proved stubborn. Despite two weeks of bombardment, Hezbollah's formidable arsenal remains in place. Yesterday they fired yet more rockets - 60 of them - deep into Israel, reaching the city of Haifa and killing a teenage girl in the Arab village of Maghar.

This persistence is causing the first rumblings of Israeli disquiet. Why are the Katyushas "still coming, and killing?" asks one Israeli columnist. Are the Israel Defence Forces losing their edge, asks another, wondering if "instead of an army that is small but smart, we are catching glimpses of an army that is big, rich, and dumb." The top brass deny they have been surprised by Hezbollah's strength. They expected nothing less, they say - not least because Iran has been supplying the movement with more than $100m worth of arms. Which would explain the serious hardware, including long-range missiles, at Hezbollah's disposal.

So far none of this has eroded the astonishingly high level of Israeli public support for the war. I spoke yesterday to a "refusenik", an Israeli soldier whose principles compelled him to spend a month in jail rather than serve in the West Bank or Gaza. Even he was clear: "We had no choice but to hit back." This is not about defending occupied territory, because Israel is not a genuine occupier in Lebanon. This is, he says, about defending the country from a proxy army of a state, Iran, that is committed to Israel's destruction.

Little has punctured Israelis' sense of self-belief. They see few of the TV pictures we see, showing Lebanese children, bloodstained and weeping; they have victims of their own to concentrate on. As for the rest of the world's condemnation, it doesn't cut much ice. Why should Israelis listen to Vladimir Putin when he tells them their response has been "disproportionate"? Was Russia's pounding of Grozny proportionate? As for complaints from Britain and Europe about the 390 civilians killed in Lebanon, those are a reminder of the more than 3,000 civilians killed in the 2001 onslaught against Afghanistan: how was that proportionate exactly? Kim Howells was right to be appalled by what he saw in Beirut. But he surely would have been just as shocked had he visited the Iraqi city of Falluja after the Americans had turned it to rubble.

Besides, not much of this criticism, including that from Howells, has got through at all. The message projected by most of the Israeli media is that the bit of the world that matters - the US - is behind them. The government certainly echoes that line, and it will have been emboldened by Condoleezza Rice's show of understanding yesterday.

Indeed, for prime minister Ehud Olmert the backing of the US is central to everything this war is about. The Tel Aviv University analyst Dr. Gary Sussman calls it a "war for the legitimacy of unilateralism." This approach, first pursued by Ariel Sharon and now Olmert's defining project, tells Israelis that it is OK to pull out from occupied territory - whether southern Lebanon in 2000 or Gaza in 2005 - because after withdrawal there will be a clear, recognized border, behind which Israel can defend itself more vigorously than ever. That is why, once Hezbollah had captured those two Israeli soldiers, Olmert had to hit back. If he had not, he would have vindicated the critics who brand unilateral withdrawal a glorified retreat, jeopardizing Israel's security. He had to prove that pulling out did not mean running away, that Israel could still defend itself. What's more, because it had moved back to the internationally recognized border, Israel would now enjoy international legitimacy. Washington has obligingly played its role, supplying the support that confirms Olmert's logic.

This message is not aimed solely at the Israeli people. It is also meant to restore the country's "deterrence," telling Hezbollah and the rest of the region that they cannot cross Israel's borders, or seize its personnel, with impunity (no matter how Israel itself behaves). Israel is especially keen to disprove the "cobweb theory," put about by Hezbollah: pull at one Israeli thread, such as its 18-year presence in Lebanon until 2000, and the rest will unravel. The current operation is designed to say that Israel does not do unravelling.

There is a last audience for this war. Olmert wants the Palestinians to see that if Israel withdraws from further territory, as he intends, it will not be a soft touch. On the contrary, as the world has seen, if Israel is so much as scratched it will hit back very hard. The prime minister wants this point seared into the minds of Hamas and Fatah so that they remember it come the day Israel withdraws from parts of the West Bank.

From his own point of view, Olmert had little alternative. If he had accepted the soldiers' kidnapping, and sought their return through diplomacy, most Israeli analysts are agreed that he would have been finished. He would have confirmed his own weakness, a civilian with no military record, and he would have proved the anti-unilateralists right. His own plan, to withdraw from more occupied territory, would be in shreds. As things stand, he should now have the credibility to move forward.

That's as close as we get to a crumb of comfort to be found in the rubble of this last fortnight. Yet it need not have been this way. Had one of the key players in the drama behaved differently, this entire mess could have been avoided.

I'm thinking of the United States. It's fashionable to blame the US for all the world's ills, but in this case the sins, both of omission and commission, of the Bush administration genuinely belong at the heart of the trouble.

Diplomacy has had a difficult task from the start, in part because the US is not seen as an honest broker, but as too closely aligned with Israel. Washington has long been pro-Israel, but under President Clinton and the first President Bush there was an effort to be seen as a plausible mediator. Not under George W. Far from keeping lines of communication open with Hezbollah's two key patrons - Syria and Iran - they have been cast into outer darkness, branded as spokes, or satellites, of the axis of evil. As a result there has been no mechanism to restrain Hezbollah. Now, when the US needs Syria's help, it may be too late. Damascus will extract a high price, no doubt demanding the right to re-enter, in some form, Lebanon. The White House can't grant that - not when it considers Syria's ejection from Lebanon in 2005 one of its few foreign-policy successes.

But the record of failure goes deeper than that. It began in the president's first week, when Bush decided he would not repeat what he perceived as his predecessor's mistake by allowing his presidency to be mired in the fruitless search for Israeli-Palestinian peace. Even though Clinton had got tantalizingly close, Bush decided to drop it. While Henry Kissinger once racked up 24,230 miles in just 34 days of shuttle diplomacy, Bush's envoys have been sparing in their visits to the region.

The result is that the core conflict has been allowed to fester. Had it been solved, or even if there had been a serious effort to solve it, the current crisis would have been unimaginable. Instead, Bush's animating idea has been that the peoples of the Middle East can be bombed into democracy and terrorized into moderation. It has proved one of the great lethal mistakes of his abominable presidency - and the peoples of Israel and Lebanon are paying the price.

Email to: freedland@guardian.co.uk.

© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
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adi8putra
07-27-2006, 02:33 PM
whatever it is, i do believe that this conflicts can only be resolved through negotiations. when are those weirdos in power would realize that hizbullah is but a name. hypothetically, u might killed all of those in hizbullah today only to realize that there will always others who will be more than willing to replace them immediately. when will this viscious cycle stops? violence will only begets violence.....:uhwhat
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Keltoi
07-27-2006, 04:56 PM
If I remember correctly, I believe that President Bush was working quite a bit with Abbas after Arafat died. However, it became pretty clear to everyone involved that Abbas didn't have the power to enforce a peace deal with Israel while Hamas was still engaging in terrorist attacks. Then Hamas was elected, and that pretty much ended any international hope for a peace deal.
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Geronimo
07-27-2006, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
If I remember correctly, I believe that President Bush was working quite a bit with Abbas after Arafat died. However, it became pretty clear to everyone involved that Abbas didn't have the power to enforce a peace deal with Israel while Hamas was still engaging in terrorist attacks. Then Hamas was elected, and that pretty much ended any international hope for a peace deal.
That's how I remember it.
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searchingsoul
07-27-2006, 05:35 PM
And why is the US at fault? Come on people the ME needs to take responsibility for their own problems.
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catmando
07-27-2006, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
And why is the US at fault? Come on people the ME needs to take responsibility for their own problems.
Did you read that article? It told you exactly why the US is at fault. The extremists on both sides would not be in charge if bu$h had not decimated the State Department of its professionals. He was also persuing the PNAC agenda in Iraq.

Without a strong America bringing the parties to negotiations like all the other administrations have done, you get what we see now; on the brink of all-out war there.
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Geronimo
07-27-2006, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by catmando
Did you read that article? It told you exactly why the US is at fault. The extremists on both sides would not be in charge if bu$h had not decimated the State Department of its professionals. He was also persuing the PNAC agenda in Iraq.

Without a strong America bringing the parties to negotiations like all the other administrations have done, you get what we see now; on the brink of all-out war there.
The people voted in these extremists. It is not our job to play babysitter.
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searchingsoul
07-27-2006, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by catmando
Did you read that article? It told you exactly why the US is at fault. The extremists on both sides would not be in charge if bu$h had not decimated the State Department of its professionals. He was also persuing the PNAC agenda in Iraq.

Without a strong America bringing the parties to negotiations like all the other administrations have done, you get what we see now; on the brink of all-out war there.
What I read was that Bush doesn't spend as much time in peace talks with ME countries (and why is this the responsibility of the USA government?). It also mentioned that the USA government is more aligned with Israel. Whether or not a love affair with Israel is a good thing, I still fail to see how such an alliance can be used an excuse for the crisis in the ME.
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wilberhum
07-27-2006, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
And why is the US at fault? Come on people the ME needs to take responsibility for their own problems.
The US is at fault because the US is responsible for every thing that goes wrong. The ME is not responsible for any ot the problems there. There are two reasons for that. 1) Muslims are never responsible for any proble. 2) As above, the US is responsible for every thing that goes wrong.
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searchingsoul
07-27-2006, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The US is at fault because the US is responsible for every thing that goes wrong. The ME is not responsible for any ot the problems there. There are two reasons for that. 1) Muslims are never responsible for any proble. 2) As above, the US is responsible for every thing that goes wrong.
I think I understand now.
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wilberhum
07-27-2006, 10:40 PM
Woops, maybe I’m wrong.
http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm
Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.
If Hezbollah’s policy is to”recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements”, there can be no Diplomacy.

Whether Israel is right or wrong, it seams they have a choice, fight or die.
Do you rationally expect them to choose the latter?
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catmando
07-28-2006, 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Woops, maybe I’m wrong.

If Hezbollah’s policy is to”recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements”, there can be no Diplomacy.

Whether Israel is right or wrong, it seams they have a choice, fight or die.
Do you rationally expect them to choose the latter?
They are fighting and dying now. Their fanaticism will not allow them to do otherwise.

Olmert needed a reason to show his toughness because he was never a soldier. Hezbollah gave it to him.
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by catmando
They are fighting and dying now. Their fanaticism will not allow them to do otherwise.

Olmert needed a reason to show his toughness because he was never a soldier. Hezbollah gave it to him.
Their "fanatacism"...so it is fanatical to respond to an enemy who raids across the border and kills and kidnaps soldiers?
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جوري
07-28-2006, 12:45 AM
yup
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
yup
So anybody who responds to an aggressive action by an enemy is a fanatic...interesting outlook.
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جوري
07-28-2006, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
So anybody who responds to an aggressive action by an enemy is a fanatic...interesting outlook.
what can I say ... it is a double edged sword ...
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
what can I say ... it is a double edged sword ...
On that I can agree.
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 01:26 AM
how is the u.s. to blame?
they refuse to demand a cease fire as lebanon is being systematically destroyed.
they arm israel and early on in the israeli attack on lebanon, it was announced that the u.s. is shipping some kind of more bombs to israel.
as i said elsewhere there are so good guys here.
israel's purpose - to turn the lebanese people against hezbollah is a dismal failure. this invasion has so far increased the support for hezbollah among the lebanese, not decreased it.
both sides made serious mistakes in judgement. the lebanese are paying.
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searcheroftruth
07-28-2006, 01:37 AM
i don't blame the US for backing the jews they own most of americas top businesses
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by searcheroftruth
i don't blame the US for backing the jews they own most of americas top businesses
That sounded like it came from a neo-nazi white supremacist....
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جوري
07-28-2006, 01:46 AM
difficult to distinguish a supremecists from the next.......everyone has a superiority complex.... neo-nazi... neo-Israeli neo-zionist... same mentality different groups of people.......(arynas)/ (god's chosen) we have played this card often enough it has lost all meaning......
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
how is the u.s. to blame?
they refuse to demand a cease fire as lebanon is being systematically destroyed.
they arm israel and early on in the israeli attack on lebanon, it was announced that the u.s. is shipping some kind of more bombs to israel.
as i said elsewhere there are so good guys here.
israel's purpose - to turn the lebanese people against hezbollah is a dismal failure. this invasion has so far increased the support for hezbollah among the lebanese, not decreased it.
both sides made serious mistakes in judgement. the lebanese are paying.
Why is it the place of the US government to demand a cease fire? That would be Western intervention.

Is Western intervention acceptable when your getting your butts kicked?
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
how is the u.s. to blame?
they refuse to demand a cease fire as lebanon is being systematically destroyed.
they arm israel and early on in the israeli attack on lebanon, it was announced that the u.s. is shipping some kind of more bombs to israel.
as i said elsewhere there are so good guys here.
israel's purpose - to turn the lebanese people against hezbollah is a dismal failure. this invasion has so far increased the support for hezbollah among the lebanese, not decreased it.
both sides made serious mistakes in judgement. the lebanese are paying.
Ordinarily I believe the U.S. would have demanded a cease-fire. The problem is the act that triggered this conflict, namely Hezbollah killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2 of them. As for the "bunker buster" bombs being sent to Israel, they are designed for exactly this kind of warfare, with tunnels and underground bunkers. Hezbollah is also an enemy of the United States, let us not forget that fact.
It is obvious that civilians are suffering the most, and that Israel has been less than precise with its air campaign, and that Hezbollah has been less than concerned about the people they hide among. I know it makes sense to call for an immediate cease-fire when you take into account the loss of innocent life in this war. The problem is the future. Hezbollah cannot be destroyed entirely, that would be like canceling Star Trek...the body may be gone but a new generation of nerds will never let it die...okay, bad analogy. However, Israel has put itself between a rock and a hard place. If they stop the offensive and return to Israel, then Hezbollah will declare victory and use the "tail between the legs". That isn't going to end the conflict, only ensure that it will start all over again. Only option now is an international peace-keeping force, with no Americans, that will actively disrupt Hezbollah's hold on southern Lebanon. No good answers.
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Why is it the place of the US government to demand a cease fire? That would be Western intervention.

Is Western intervention acceptable when your getting your butts kicked?
u.s. has already intervened by arming israel and refusing to apply pressure.
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by searcheroftruth
i don't blame the US for backing the jews they own most of americas top businesses
[MOUSE]bigot alert![/MOUSE]
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Ordinarily I believe the U.S. would have demanded a cease-fire. The problem is the act that triggered this conflict, namely Hezbollah killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping 2 of them. As for the "bunker buster" bombs being sent to Israel, they are designed for exactly this kind of warfare, with tunnels and underground bunkers. Hezbollah is also an enemy of the United States, let us not forget that fact.
It is obvious that civilians are suffering the most, and that Israel has been less than precise with its air campaign, and that Hezbollah has been less than concerned about the people they hide among. I know it makes sense to call for an immediate cease-fire when you take into account the loss of innocent life in this war. The problem is the future. Hezbollah cannot be destroyed entirely, that would be like canceling Star Trek...the body may be gone but a new generation of nerds will never let it die...okay, bad analogy. However, Israel has put itself between a rock and a hard place. If they stop the offensive and return to Israel, then Hezbollah will declare victory and use the "tail between the legs". That isn't going to end the conflict, only ensure that it will start all over again. Only option now is an international peace-keeping force, with no Americans, that will actively disrupt Hezbollah's hold on southern Lebanon. No good answers.
i disagree - the israelis are being quite precise. they are destroying the country quite systematically.
there are reports that israel is using depleted uranium, cluster bombs and white phosphorous.
as far as the future, this invasion and the u.s. support for it, have boosted sympathy for hezbollah tremendously, as well as increased hatred for the u.s.
i agree completely with your last point! that given, why isn't the u.s. demanding this (immediate cease fire and international peace keeping force)?
yes, there are no good answers or simple right and wrong in this issue.
and it is a very emotional issue for most of us.
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 03:06 AM
I am just not understanding the logic behind this “Their "fanaticism"...so it is fanatical to respond to an enemy who raids across the border and kills and kidnaps soldiers?

Pure Ambrosia responded “yup”.

How does that make sense in anyone’s mind?????

Snake Legs, you are very wrong in your stance on this issue.

Thanks
Nimrod
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Snake Legs, you are very wrong in your stance on this issue.
Thanks
Nimrod
i accept that. i am wrong about a lot of things - (it happens every so often) and i feel much ambiguity on this subject in particular.
i hope you didn't think that because i am critical of the u.s. and israel about this, that that means i think hezbollah is right. i most certainly do not!
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جوري
07-28-2006, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
I am just not understanding the logic behind this “Their "fanaticism"...so it is fanatical to respond to an enemy who raids across the border and kills and kidnaps soldiers?

Pure Ambrosia responded “yup”.

How does that make sense in anyone’s mind?????

Snake Legs, you are very wrong in your stance on this issue.

Thanks
Nimrod
It is simple Israel is suffering from Munchausen syndrome with a little bit of malingering.... to the naked eye seems believable but on closer examination it all becomes clear... want a good view take a few weeks sabbatical and live in a Palestinian refugee camp... and let us know how well you handle it when people come knocking on your door shooting your wife and smashing your property.... I am sure you will be all forgiving like....
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 03:27 AM
Snake Legs, I in no way believe that you are defending Hezbollah, or its actions, I hope I didn’t leave you with that impression.

Thanks
Nimrod
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Snake Legs, I in no way believe that you are defending Hezbollah, or its actions, I hope I didn’t leave you with that impression.

Thanks
Nimrod
Of course she is! "You're either with us, or against us."

I think the same statement would apply to this conflict since Israel is supported by the United States.

Snakelegs, you are against us.:D
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Of course she is! "You're either with us, or against us."

I think the same statement would apply to this conflict since Israel is supported by the United States.

Snakelegs, you are against us.:D
who is "us"? sometimes i am not even sure about this! lol.
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 03:46 AM
Purest Ambrosia, you speak as though everything that has happened, has happened in some sort of vacuum.

Israel has, the same as every other nation, acted and reacted to events concerning them, just the same as Palestine.

Surely you don’t believe Palestine has made no mistakes in any of its actions toward Israel.

Maybe, just maybe, if someone is shooting rockets at your wife and kids, you might do some of the things that have been done to Palestine.

I refuse to enjoin a tit-for-tat debate all the way back to the 1940’s, it is pointless.

It is time that Palestine understood one fact, Israel is not going away.

Find a way to live peacefully or suffer.

Be it right or wrong, Israel isn’t going to cease to be a nation.

Deal with that or suffer for not understanding things as they are.


On a more logical plane, answer me this;

What advantage does Israel gain from a cease fire and status quo?

If you were advising the Israelis on their best course of action, what advise would you give them that would better their position?

If a cease fire would better Israel’s position with Hezbollah, please explain how.

Thanks
Nimrod
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 03:48 AM
Searching Soul, I assume your post was made in jest.

Thanks
Nimrod

No supporter of GWB
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Searching Soul, I assume your post was made in jest.

Thanks
Nimrod

No supporter of GWB
Of course.
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جوري
07-28-2006, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Purest Ambrosia, you speak as though everything that has happened, has happened in some sort of vacuum
Israel has, the same as every other nation, acted and reacted to events concerning them, just the same as Palestine..
ha?

Originally Posted by nimrod
Surely you don’t believe Palestine has made no mistakes in any of its actions toward Israel...
Sure I believe...
Originally Posted by nimrod
Maybe, just maybe, if someone is shooting rockets at your wife and kids, you might do some of the things that have been done to Palestine....
Again I am not sure what that means!!

Originally Posted by nimrod
I refuse to enjoin a tit-for-tat debate all the way back to the 1940’s, it is pointless.
then don't...

Originally Posted by nimrod
It is time that Palestine understood one fact, Israel is not going away..
oh in time there will be a day of reckoning....
Originally Posted by nimrod
Find a way to live peacefully or suffer.
I guess the choice is made then
Originally Posted by nimrod
Be it right or wrong, Israel isn’t going to cease to be a nation.
again I believe that there will be a day of reckoning
Originally Posted by nimrod
Deal with that or suffer for not understanding things as they are.
I don't like simplistic comments from which I am to draw some sort of closure

Originally Posted by nimrod
On a more logical plane, answer me this;

What advantage does Israel gain from a cease fire and status quo?.
they get their two thugs back
Originally Posted by nimrod
If you were advising the Israelis on their best course of action, what advise would you give them that would better their position?]?.
To wander in nations until driven back the promised land by the awaited one not to impose a secular state under the guise of a religious one if that doesn't spell nazism I don't know what does.
Originally Posted by nimrod
[If a cease fire would better Israel’s position with Hezbollah, please explain how.
I don't care what their postition is as far as hezballah... "they want" they should give it is that simple...

Originally Posted by nimrod
Thanks
Nimrod
you are quite welcome
pureamb
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 04:34 AM
Pure Ambrosia “I don't care what their [Israel’s] position is as far as Hezbollah...”.

That is what I don't understand.

My, posts to you, are worded/written to trigger your giving some sort of consideration toward what is happening in the real world.

Surely Israel’s position/stance toward Hezbollah is of some importance?

Why don’t you care?

Thanks
Nimrod
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جوري
07-28-2006, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Pure Ambrosia “I don't care what their [Israel’s] position is as far as Hezbollah...”.

That is what I don't understand.

My, posts to you, are worded/written to trigger your giving some sort of consideration toward what is happening in the real world.

Surely Israel’s position/stance toward Hezbollah is of some importance?

Why don’t you care?

Thanks
Nimrod
if IDF has a total blatant disregard to human life....as we have seen ONLY a small excerpt while the rest is swept under the rug... Any sympathy for Israel can only be met with apathy on my behalf and many others....surely the mind has formed and expression and we have a long laundry list of disdain to lean back on ... the same way we are yearly reminded of the holocaust yet with nothing but insolence deny the state of Palestine also on the same Oscars... forgive that I am not very pro-Israel .... glad to see that you are so forgiving though would love to know how you fare if you were lost amidst a tribe of cannibals and how "accepting' of defeat...
you tend to be polite in your responses and I don't wish to lose my manners around you ... this is the general view through muslim/arab eyes... Israel is the offender ........
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Snake Legs, I in no way believe that you are defending Hezbollah, or its actions, I hope I didn’t leave you with that impression.

Thanks
Nimrod
ok. thanks for the clarification.
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snakelegs
07-28-2006, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Purest Ambrosia, you speak as though everything that has happened, has happened in some sort of vacuum.

Israel has, the same as every other nation, acted and reacted to events concerning them, just the same as Palestine.

Surely you don’t believe Palestine has made no mistakes in any of its actions toward Israel.

Thanks
Nimrod
this wasn't addressed to me but i just wanted to point out that it isn't the palestinians who are paying the price - it is the lebanese people, muslims, christians, sunnis, shi'as. - the entire country.
israel's reaction is, if anything, helping the palestinians. it has certainly won a lot of new fans for hezbollah.
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adi8putra
07-28-2006, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
this wasn't addressed to me but i just wanted to point out that it isn't the palestinians who are paying the price - it is the lebanese people, muslims, christians, sunnis, shi'as. - the entire country.
israel's reaction is, if anything, helping the palestinians. it has certainly won a lot of new fans for hezbollah.
..... & on that, i certailny agreed!
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nimrod
07-28-2006, 01:51 PM
Purest Ambrosia, I think I must have left you with the wrong impression.

You said “... forgive that I am not very pro-Israel ....”

I can understand that entirely, I condemn no one for having an anti Israel position/stance.

The point I was trying to make is that, regardless of anyone’s stance on Israel, we ought to only support things that better the situation for all parties involved.

Israel is not going to give all the Palestine lands back, that is a fact.
Hamas and Hezbollah are not in a position to change that fact.
I dare say that the whole Middle East is not in a position to change that fact.

If there is to be a long-term betterment of the Palestine peoples, then there must be found some way to live in peace.

As long as there are people striking out at Israel, Israel will continue to strike back.

If the fighters hide among the general populace then there will all ways be non-combatants killed.

Be it right or wrong, that is the way it is.

So no, I wouldn’t expect you to be pro-Israel, nor do I condemn you for being anti-Israel.

I am not anti-Palestine, nor am I anti-Lebanon, nor am I anti-Middle East, nor am I anti-Islam/Muslim.

What I am anti toward are the actions by all parties that do nothing towards a long term peace and a bettering of all the people there.

I hope you understand.

What is going on over there is not a lack of diplomacy on the part of the USA.

I dare say it is a direct result of people supporting the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

nimrod
07-28-2006, 02:07 PM
Snake Legs “it has certainly won a lot of new fans for Hezbollah”.

I am sure that among certain segments of the world’s population, what you said is true, but on the whole it is not.

I say that holds true for the Middle East as well.
I have seen Middle Eastern leaders condemning the civilian deaths that happen to be non-Israeli, but I have not seen many public statements supporting Hezbollah’s shelling of Israel.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Geronimo
07-28-2006, 02:26 PM
She just want every Jew in Israel destroyed. It's ok Ambrosia to say it. Don't hide behind this Israel is occupying all our land bs. If that was true there would be riots in Syria, Jordan, and Eygpt considering they all occupied Palestine at sometime and some of them still do. There was no Jihad against these contries and they were far from nice to Pals considering every state the Pals were in the country considered them scum.
Reply

HeiGou
07-28-2006, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
It is simple Israel is suffering from Munchausen syndrome with a little bit of malingering.... to the naked eye seems believable but on closer examination it all becomes clear... want a good view take a few weeks sabbatical and live in a Palestinian refugee camp... and let us know how well you handle it when people come knocking on your door shooting your wife and smashing your property.... I am sure you will be all forgiving like....
I think you are missing the point. No one denies (or at least very few people deny) that the Palestinians have suffered an injustice. No one denies that they have been dispossessed. A few in America do not care but even they are a minority. The question is what is to be done? Which leads to the conclusion that what is being done is counter-productive. The Palestinians have a wealth of political and military options in front of them. They habitually choose the most violent and hence the most counter-productive of them all. They chose to side with Saddam Hussien. They chose suicide bombing. They chose to side with Osama Bin Laden, or at least were not quick enough to distance themselves from him. They even elected Hamas. If Israel was weak these choices would be productive to some degree. Israel is not weak. I suggest they need to choose again because the biggest card Israel has is the one that says no peace is possible because the Palestinians support terrorism. It is indeniable.
Reply

جوري
07-28-2006, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
She just want every Jew in Israel destroyed. It's ok Ambrosia to say it. Don't hide behind this Israel is occupying all our land bs. If that was true there would be riots in Syria, Jordan, and Eygpt considering they all occupied Palestine at sometime and some of them still do. There was no Jihad against these contries and they were far from nice to Pals considering every state the Pals were in the country considered them scum.
I think considering your sources and lack of insight as we have all seen yesterday ... you have no credibility ......none whatsoever. You are in no position to make a psychological or political judgment ... in fact it is almost gratifying that you sit home all day and vegetate in front of the computer posting various none sense... At some point my vacation will be over and you'll still be here having no influence on the people on whom you daily mock....
Any Muslim country under the rule of the Muslim empire is considered a Provence.... Israel however will have its day ....
Reply

جوري
07-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Purest Ambrosia, I think I must have left you with the wrong impression.

You said “... forgive that I am not very pro-Israel ....”

I can understand that entirely, I condemn no one for having an anti Israel position/stance.

The point I was trying to make is that, regardless of anyone’s stance on Israel, we ought to only support things that better the situation for all parties involved.

Israel is not going to give all the Palestine lands back, that is a fact.
Hamas and Hezbollah are not in a position to change that fact.
I dare say that the whole Middle East is not in a position to change that fact.

If there is to be a long-term betterment of the Palestine peoples, then there must be found some way to live in peace.

As long as there are people striking out at Israel, Israel will continue to strike back.

If the fighters hide among the general populace then there will all ways be non-combatants killed.

Be it right or wrong, that is the way it is.

So no, I wouldn’t expect you to be pro-Israel, nor do I condemn you for being anti-Israel.

I am not anti-Palestine, nor am I anti-Lebanon, nor am I anti-Middle East, nor am I anti-Islam/Muslim.

What I am anti toward are the actions by all parties that do nothing towards a long term peace and a bettering of all the people there.

I hope you understand.

What is going on over there is not a lack of diplomacy on the part of the USA.

I dare say it is a direct result of people supporting the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Thanks
Nimrod
Israel isn't going anywhere neither is Hamas or hezballah... end of story
Reply

Geronimo
07-28-2006, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I think considering your sources and lack of insight as we have all seen yesterday ... you have no credibility ......none whatsoever. You are in no position to make a psychological or political judgment ... in fact it is almost gratifying that you sit home all day and vegetate in front of the computer posting various none sense... At some point my vacation will be over and you'll still be here having no influence on the people on whom you daily mock....
Any Muslim country under the rule of the Muslim empire is considered a Provence.... Israel however will have its day ....
I know you are but what am I?
Reply

Geronimo
07-28-2006, 04:07 PM
By the way I'm not at home I'm at work. I got it like that:D
Reply

جوري
07-28-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
I know you are but what am I?
if you don't know by name you are experiencing a serious crisis.. resolve it in your own private time.....
Reply

Geronimo
07-28-2006, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
if you don't know by name you are experiencing a serious crisis.. resolve it in your own private time.....
You've never seen Pee Wee's playhouse? Man are you deprived.
Reply

جوري
07-28-2006, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Geronimo
You've never seen Pee Wee's playhouse? Man are you deprived.
looool... you'd be one to know of deprivation....
Reply

nimrod
07-29-2006, 04:11 AM
Purest Ambrosia, “Israel isn't going anywhere neither is Hamas or Hezbollah... end of story”, that isn’t the end of the story.

The end of the story is in how they deal with each other and how those dealings affects the rest of the world.

I hope you come to understand that.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

جوري
07-29-2006, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Purest Ambrosia, “Israel isn't going anywhere neither is Hamas or Hezbollah... end of story”, that isn’t the end of the story.

The end of the story is in how they deal with each other and how those dealings affects the rest of the world.

I hope you come to understand that.

Thanks
Nimrod
One deals with the other in the way of killing and pillaging.... I have come to understand that, yes..... let's not be super heroes on this forum ... A question one must always ask before getting too involved with any post and have it drag on for pages is what do we hope to gain from this dialogue? ..... peace to the world, good will toward man? Fine let the world have peace.....nothing would give me greater pleasure... .....But you know honestly people are still being killed while others claim it is self defense.....and while you and I sit and write.. life isn't as simple as a post ... it is complex there are many variables ... the more variables you add the more difficult the formula ..... now I hope you can understand that!
thanks to you as well
PureAmb
Reply

snakelegs
07-29-2006, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by nimrod
Snake Legs “it has certainly won a lot of new fans for Hezbollah”.

I am sure that among certain segments of the world’s population, what you said is true, but on the whole it is not.

I say that holds true for the Middle East as well.
I have seen Middle Eastern leaders condemning the civilian deaths that happen to be non-Israeli, but I have not seen many public statements supporting Hezbollah’s shelling of Israel.

Thanks
Nimrod
my take on this is that the middle eastern leaders are condemning hezbollah, not because the disagree with their tactics. they are frightened and alarmed about this shift in power in the region. (re: sunni-shi'a.).
but the people, unlike their leaders do not share this concern and israel's actions haved cancelled out the differences between sunni shi'a and they are more supportive of hezbollah with each bomb israel drops, each child killed, each life destroyed, and the destruction of lebanon. this has the potential to actually unite sunni and shi'a - probably for the first time ever.
so the leaders and the people are really on 2 different planets.
Reply

KAding
07-29-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
my take on this is that the middle eastern leaders are condemning hezbollah, not because the disagree with their tactics. they are frightened and alarmed about this shift in power in the region. (re: sunni-shi'a.).
but the people, unlike their leaders do not share this concern and israel's actions haved cancelled out the differences between sunni shi'a and they are more supportive of hezbollah with each bomb israel drops, each child killed, each life destroyed, and the destruction of lebanon. this has the potential to actually unite sunni and shi'a - probably for the first time ever.
so the leaders and the people are really on 2 different planets.
I agree. For some this whole conflict is truely a blessing. They see it as a way to finally unite the Ummah. There seems little chance of this happening otherwise, a true conflict that mobilizes the masses is what is needed.
Reply

snakelegs
07-29-2006, 12:57 PM
hmmmmm. the plot thickens. just came across this article:

Arab governments now warming to Hezbollah

http://www.thestate.com/mld/mercuryn...d/15143186.htm
Reply

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