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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 12:23 AM
How long should the world give Palestine to come to grips with the fact that Israel is no longer theirs to claim?

I know it took Native Americans a while to accept that they'd lost their fight. I'm sure it's true of any overpowered tribe or nation.

The history of the world shows that land and people are continuously being conquered. All countries and races are guilty of conquest.

I'm thinking since we have advanced methods of transportation, communication, and nuclear weapons, less tolerance should be given to those unwilling to accept defeat.
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 12:39 AM
Good question. As a Native American, I know from the history of my people that there came a time when the suffering of the young, the old, the sick, etc became too much to bear. I don't know how much suffering the people in Palestine are willing to take, and no I'm not comparing the plight of the Palestinians to that of Native Americans, but those with any sense of humanity will accept the bitter pill of peace so no others have to die.
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Good question. As a Native American, I know from the history of my people that there came a time when the suffering of the young, the old, the sick, etc became too much to bear. I don't know how much suffering the people in Palestine are willing to take, and no I'm not comparing the plight of the Palestinians to that of Native Americans, but those with any sense of humanity will accept the bitter pill of peace so no others have to die.

I didn't know that you were native american. I find that fascinating. I have several distant grandparents who were Cherokee and Choctaw. So my personal experience has been with grandparents and great grandparents who were 1/2 or 1/4 Native American. You probably have a much closer association with the Native American Heritage.

My point is that the relatives in my life held no animosity toward the USA or white people. Maybe it takes a few generations for the hatred to leave. When comparing Palestine it seems like they've had a sufficient number of generations and time to heal.
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
I didn't know that you were native american. I find that fascinating. I have several distant grandparents who were Cherokee and Choctaw. So my personal experience has been with grandparents and great grandparents who were 1/2 or 1/4 Native American. You probably have a much closer association with the Native American Heritage.

My point is that the relatives in my life held no animosity toward the USA or white people. Maybe it takes a few generations for the hatred to leave. When comparing Palestine it seems like they've had a sufficient number of generations and time to heal.

I can honestly say that in the native community in which I was brought up there was no hatred. Many people were caught up in alcoholism and poverty though.

P.S. my ancestry is fairly mixed. I'm 1/2 Kiowa, 1/4 Caddo, and 1/4 Irish. Proud of them all.
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 04:10 AM
There must be underlying issues that keep Palestinians from accepting defeat. I wonder what they are?
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 04:58 AM
To be quite blunt, it is because the IDF aren't engaging in a "hot war" with the intention of "defeating" the Palestinians. If this was the case there wouldn't be any Palestinians within 100 miles of Israel. Before I'm accused, no I don't think Israel should kill all Palestinians. Thought I would knip that in the bud before it started.
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Lamaggad
07-28-2006, 05:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
How long should the world give Palestine to come to grips with the fact that Israel is no longer theirs to claim?
Excuse me what do you mean that the occupied land in Palestine that they call it israel is not for Palestinian..?! where did you learn that from.

israel is falling down, and the resistance groups over trying to free each land of Palestine... so people can live like Humans over there, not like animals under the zionist occupation.

no body likes to live under occupation, and no body likes to live under violence, you have seen the movie your self now.. the israeli forces whom are kids 16 and 17 years old, have went in to this guy's house, killed his wife for not reason, threaten his kids for no reason, destroyed the house, and they didn't even find one weapon in his house... they are just doing chaos... and you have clearly seen their attitude, and then at the end, they say it's a MISTAKE.

how any one can live in peace beside those terrorists?!?!
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 05:10 AM
[QUOTE=Lamaggad;423164]Excuse me what do you mean that the occupied land in Palestine that they call it israel is not for Palestinian..?! where did you learn that from.

israel is falling down, and the resistance groups over trying to free each land of Palestine... so people can live like Humans over there, not like animals under the zionist occupation.

no body likes to live under occupation, and no body likes to live under violence, you have seen the movie your self now.. the israeli forces whom are kids 16 and 17 years old, have went in to this guy's house, killed his wife for not reason, threaten his kids for no reason, destroyed the house, and they didn't even find one weapon in his house... they are just doing chaos... and you have clearly seen their attitude, and then at the end, they say it's a MISTAKE.

How can you live in peace with people who blow up teenagers in pizza parlors? Let us not do the tit-for-tat since the time of Adam routine either. The reality is that both sides are responsible for the hell they have created.
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Lamaggad
07-28-2006, 05:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
There must be underlying issues that keep Palestinians from accepting defeat. I wonder what they are?
The thing is, israel is the one who isn't accepting the defeat.

Saudi Arabia, UAE and Syria and some other countries doesn't recognise israel as a country, most of the Arab and Muslims nations doesn't recognise the existence of israel and I'm very proud to be one of them.

if you think that by power every one can win, then you are wrong...
israel always kills, always destroy, always fights... they are forcing every one by power to accept which they can't do even if they kept killing the whole world like what they are doing in Lebanon now.

why do you think they are pissed now? bcz the majority don't want them.. the majority don't accept them...

they want to kill evey one who say no out loud infront of their face like what Hezb Allah, Hamas, Syria and Iran is doing.

Subhana Allah, all those four are terrorists and israel is only victim who is looking for peace.

i don't know how you guys are calculating things??!?!
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 05:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
The thing is, israel is the one who isn't accepting the defeat.

Saudi Arabia, UAE and Syria and some other countries doesn't recognise israel as a country, most of the Arab and Muslims nations doesn't recognise the existence of israel and I'm very proud to be one of them.

if you think that by power every one can win, then you are wrong...
israel always kills, always destroy, always fights... they are forcing every one by power to accept which they can't do even if they kept killing the whole world like what they are doing in Lebanon now.

why do you think they are pissed now? bcz the majority don't want them.. the majority don't accept them...

they want to kill evey one who say no out loud infront of their face like what Hezb Allah, Hamas, Syria and Iran is doing.

Subhana Allah, all those four are terrorists and israel is only victim who is looking for peace.

i don't know how you guys are calculating things??!?!
I tend to look at reality. When the Palestinians or Hezbollah engage the IDF, it only leads to a whole bunch of dead Palestinians, or in this case a whole lot of dead Lebanese. Refusing to "give up" may seem romantic and honorable, but the truth is this mentality only leads to more lives lost and disrupted. Israel will not be defeated militarily. Perhaps a tsunami will come and wipe Israel from the map, because that is the only hope for those who continue to pray for its destruction.
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Lamaggad
07-28-2006, 05:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
How can you live in peace with people who blow up teenagers in pizza parlors? Let us not do the tit-for-tat since the time of Adam routine either. The reality is that both sides are responsible for the hell they have created.
when did people in Palestine started to blow them selves?!?
if you don't know i will tell, they started to do that AFTER they have suffered from those zionists... they are looking for revenge for their families and their house that was destroyed... they are looking for revenge for their kids and the massacres that israel have caused PURPOSELY.

israel is forcing Palestinians who is living in their own houses before 1948 to pay unfair taxes, and if they couldn't pay the taxes on time, they are DONE, and their houses is DEMOLISHED IMMEDIATELY...

What kind of life is this? and why israel is doing that?!?

they aren't achieving any thing by that ecxept HATE and VILONCE.
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Keltoi
07-28-2006, 05:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
when did people in Palestine started to blow them selves?!?
if you don't know i will tell, they started to do that AFTER they have suffered from those zionists... they are looking for revenge for their families and their house that was destroyed... they are looking for revenge for their kids and the massacres that israel have caused PURPOSELY.

israel is forcing Palestinians who is living in their own houses before 1948 to pay unfair taxes, and if they couldn't pay the taxes on time, they are DONE, and their houses is DEMOLISHED IMMEDIATELY...

What kind of life is this? and why israel is doing that?!?

they aren't achieving any thing by that ecxept HATE and VILONCE.
:uhwhat Tit-for-tat... and we go round and round. Deja Vu all over again.
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Lamaggad
07-28-2006, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
but the truth is this mentality only leads to more lives lost and disrupted. Israel will not be defeated militarily.
Israel does have the powerfull army, no body have denied that... even Hassan nassr Allah him self never denide that, and he have said it clearly that he doesn't have what israel have in regards of weapons and.

israel is having air war by thier military aircraft, which basically Hezb Allah can't do any thing about it... they are only killing cevilians with it.

as for the Ground war in Maroon Al-Rass and Bent Jbail... till now, hezb Allah is winning, and they have caused lots of damages to israli military and killed more than 24 israli's...

it's been two days till now, and israeli forces are not able to enter bent jbail city... which basically mean that Hezb Allah is strong enough to defeat them in the ground... which is going to piss them off even more bcz they think by there false power they are suppose to win and every one should fear them.
Perhaps a tsunami will come and wipe Israel from the map.
Ameen Ameen Ameen

The end of israel will come, and I'm assuming soon, bcz Arabs and Muslims aren't able to hold them selves any more... one day all of them are going to blow up badly on israel... it will be a night mare for israel... Arabs and Muslims wouldn't care any more about any thing after all what they have been throw.
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searchingsoul
07-28-2006, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
Excuse me what do you mean that the occupied land in Palestine that they call it israel is not for Palestinian..?! where did you learn that from.

It used to belong to them. Now it belongs to Israel. I think they need to accept this fact and move on.

israel is falling down, and the resistance groups over trying to free each land of Palestine... so people can live like Humans over there, not like animals under the zionist occupation.

no body likes to live under occupation, and no body likes to live under violence, you have seen the movie your self now.. the israeli forces whom are kids 16 and 17 years old, have went in to this guy's house, killed his wife for not reason, threaten his kids for no reason, destroyed the house, and they didn't even find one weapon in his house... they are just doing chaos... and you have clearly seen their attitude, and then at the end, they say it's a MISTAKE.

how any one can live in peace beside those terrorists?!?!

Soldiers make mistakes. They crack under pressure. Some enter combat with hatred and others are conditioned to hate during combat. There's not a single army that doesn't make mistakes and commit atrocities. It's human nature.
:) :) :)
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searchingsoul
08-02-2006, 07:33 PM
Why are palestinians still in refugee camps?

Why don't they leave and join other Arab nations?
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ManchesterFolk
08-02-2006, 08:03 PM
How can you live in peace with people who blow up teenagers in pizza parlors? Let us not do the tit-for-tat since the time of Adam routine either. The reality is that both sides are responsible for the hell they have created.
You can't. The first day Israel was created when it had no territories was attacked by the Arab world. The Arab world will never accept Israel no matter how much Israel tries for peace.

Islam has conquered so many lands belonging to pagans and others... why not give back those occupied lands to the peoples you conquered it from?

Oh wait... it has nothing to do about conquered land.

Its the fact that the Arab world cannot accept the Jews having there own land no matter how many Muslim countries there are.The Jews can't have an inch of there own in Arabs eyes.
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kadafi
08-02-2006, 08:09 PM
[quote=Keltoi;423171]
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
The reality is that both sides are responsible for the hell they have created.
The real reality is that Palestinians had to endure a half-century before they resorted to extreme and unlawful measures (i.e. suicide-bombing). In fact, before this suicide-bombing hype, they explictly and formally reconigzed Israel's right to exist in '88 and re-iterated it in '91 and '93. This was all before the first suicide-bombing occured in '94/5. However, it was Israel who boycott ted negotiations and peacetalks to determine the future of the Palestinian people. The blame largely lies on the Israeli government for failing to cooperate with the Palestinians.
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Kidman
08-02-2006, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Why are palestinians still in refugee camps?

Why don't they leave and join other Arab nations?
They would rather die fighting for their land and freedom. kinda sounds like BraveHeart, lol.

Kidman
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Keltoi
08-03-2006, 03:44 AM
[QUOTE=kadafi;431373]
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The real reality is that Palestinians had to endure a half-century before they resorted to extreme and unlawful measures (i.e. suicide-bombing). In fact, before this suicide-bombing hype, they explictly and formally reconigzed Israel's right to exist in '88 and re-iterated it in '91 and '93. This was all before the first suicide-bombing occured in '94/5. However, it was Israel who boycott ted negotiations and peacetalks to determine the future of the Palestinian people. The blame largely lies on the Israeli government for failing to cooperate with the Palestinians.
I have to disagree. Yasser Arafat was offered the best deal the Palestinians were likely to get, not to mention a promising peace-process. The fact that every single item on the Palestinian wish list wasn't granted, one would think if the desire for peace was really there, Arafat would have accepted this proposal and started the real work of improving Palestinian infrastructure and the creation of a viable and responsible state.
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Wahid
08-03-2006, 07:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
There must be underlying issues that keep Palestinians from accepting defeat. I wonder what they are?
In fact their position looks better than ever, with the Mighty super power in a stall mate and losing in Iraq to Iran building up its various weapons. Its a matter of time, when a competent leader takes over Pakistan and Saudi the power will begin to shift in the region
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 07:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Vahid
In fact their position looks better than ever, with the Mighty super power in a stall mate and losing in Iraq to Iran building up its various weapons. Its a matter of time, when a competent leader takes over Pakistan and Saudi the power will begin to shift in the region
One way to look at it. Thanks for sharing.
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Woodrow
08-03-2006, 07:35 AM
Another way of looking at things. Perhaps this will be the last final battle before all people recognise that the time has come when wars can no longer be fought with weapons that kill and destroy. The world has become so small that it is now impossible to cause another person to suffer, without it being obvious that we all will ultimatly suffer. A human can not harm another human without it harming himself and his loved ones also. Yes, we will always have wars to right unjustices, but the weapons of the past are now obsolete. The weapons of the future need to be tools of cooperation rather then destruction. A countries greatest strength now comes with the knowledge that no nation is independant. Each country no matter how small, has other countries dependent upon them for something. The greatest weapon is to learn who is dependent upon you, and use the removal of support as a weapon.

Israel needs to recognise it depends on Palestine to survive and Palestine needs to recognise it is dependent upon Israel. The conquest of either, by the other will result in the lose of both.
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Nablus
08-03-2006, 08:24 AM
How can you live in peace with people who blow up teenagers in pizza parlors? . .
How can u live with people who targeted citizens from their airforces and their tanks and beldozers

so which weopon is effective more th airforces and tanks or blowing up?!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Keltoi
08-03-2006, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Why are palestinians still in refugee camps?

Why don't they leave and join other Arab nations?
Because these other Arab nations don't want them, to be blunt.
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Skillganon
08-03-2006, 03:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lamaggad
The thing is, israel is the one who isn't accepting the defeat.

Saudi Arabia, UAE and Syria and some other countries doesn't recognise israel as a country, most of the Arab and Muslims nations doesn't recognise the existence of israel and I'm very proud to be one of them.

if you think that by power every one can win, then you are wrong...
israel always kills, always destroy, always fights... they are forcing every one by power to accept which they can't do even if they kept killing the whole world like what they are doing in Lebanon now.

why do you think they are pissed now? bcz the majority don't want them.. the majority don't accept them...

they want to kill evey one who say no out loud infront of their face like what Hezb Allah, Hamas, Syria and Iran is doing.

Subhana Allah, all those four are terrorists and israel is only victim who is looking for peace.

i don't know how you guys are calculating things??!?!
They calculate things by what their president say and their party they vote for say. Aswell as the media and the inluence of Israeli Lobby.
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Isma'el
08-03-2006, 03:49 PM
hey was it the jews who crucified jesus PBUH..?
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Dawud_uk
08-03-2006, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
How long should the world give Palestine to come to grips with the fact that Israel is no longer theirs to claim?

I know it took Native Americans a while to accept that they'd lost their fight. I'm sure it's true of any overpowered tribe or nation.

The history of the world shows that land and people are continuously being conquered. All countries and races are guilty of conquest.

I'm thinking since we have advanced methods of transportation, communication, and nuclear weapons, less tolerance should be given to those unwilling to accept defeat.

you must realise that the palestinians do not have to fight to win, in fact it would be almost impossible for them to do so, so what are they doing?

they are fighting to keep the israelis from winning, anyone who has played chess or naughts and crosses will know playing for a draw is very easy but playing to win is much harder.

now the palestinians only have to keep the israelis fighting because they know eventually islam will return as a state system and when it does then the liberation of palestine will be one of the first wrongs righted.

even Sheikh Yaseen (may Allah grant him mercy and accept his martyrdom) said he would sign a long term truce on the 67 borders for 10, 20 or 50 years because he knew eventually the lands around palestine would return to the rule of islam not secular kufr law and then the israelis were doomed.

as one palestine put it to a brother i know who has travelled there,
'the crusaders were here for 150 years and you expect us to give up after only 50 years of occupation?'

israel is doomed, it will be destroyed and the longer the jewish conduct continues to be so blood thirsty and destructive the harder it will be for them when that destruction comes.

Daw'ud
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
you must realise that the palestinians do not have to fight to win, in fact it would be almost impossible for them to do so, so what are they doing?

they are fighting to keep the israelis from winning, anyone who has played chess or naughts and crosses will know playing for a draw is very easy but playing to win is much harder.

now the palestinians only have to keep the israelis fighting because they know eventually islam will return as a state system and when it does then the liberation of palestine will be one of the first wrongs righted.

even Sheikh Yaseen (may Allah grant him mercy and accept his martyrdom) said he would sign a long term truce on the 67 borders for 10, 20 or 50 years because he knew eventually the lands around palestine would return to the rule of islam not secular kufr law and then the israelis were doomed.

as one palestine put it to a brother i know who has travelled there,
'the crusaders were here for 150 years and you expect us to give up after only 50 years of occupation?'

israel is doomed, it will be destroyed and the longer the jewish conduct continues to be so blood thirsty and destructive the harder it will be for them when that destruction comes.

Daw'ud
So the Palestinians just need to keep fighting and waiting for allah? I'm sorry, I don't buy that. The rest of the world doesn't buy it either.

I think your religious claim is just as valid as the jewish claim that they are the chosen people. Maybe it's true. No one will know until they die.
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Kidman
08-03-2006, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isma'el
hey was it the jews who crucified jesus PBUH..?
Jesus (PBUH) was never crucified. But in terms of what the Christian belief, yes, he was crucified by the Jews.

Kidman
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Because these other Arab nations don't want them, to be blunt.
Do they not want them because they wish to further their political agenda? Or do they not want them because they consider them inferior?
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Geronimo
08-03-2006, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isma'el
hey was it the jews who crucified jesus PBUH..?
That was a cheap shot because you know muslims don't believe Isa was crucified. As for who crucified him it was the Romans as the Jews didn't have any power at the time.
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Geronimo
08-03-2006, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Do they not want them because they wish to further their political agenda? Or do they not want them because they consider them inferior?
They consider them inferior. In Lebanon they live in ghettos and most places won't give them a job or allow them to build. They were eject from Egypt because they were casing too much trouble same with SA and Jordan. When Iraq took Kuwait the Pals went around robbing and killing and raping. Nobody wants them.
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 05:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
They consider them inferior. In Lebanon they live in ghettos and most places won't give them a job or allow them to build. They were eject from Egypt because they were casing too much trouble same with SA and Jordan. When Iraq took Kuwait the Pals went around robbing and killing and raping. Nobody wants them.
Wow. I'm speechless.
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Annie
08-03-2006, 05:48 PM
:sl:
i have a question for you searching soul, how would you feel if someone occupied and stole your home?
:w:
Annie
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Annie
:sl:
i have a question for you searching soul, how would you feel if someone occupied and stole your home?
:w:
Annie
What do you think? Of course I wouldn't like it. I've never denied that there are atrocities being committed today by Israel toward the Palestinians. I feel that there's too much hatred by both sides to change this presently. I also feel that the Palestinians need to accept defeat and move on with their lives.
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Kidman
08-03-2006, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
What do you think? Of course I wouldn't like it. I've never denied that there are atrocities being committed today by Israel toward the Palestinians. I feel that there's too much hatred by both sides to change this presently. I also feel that the Palestinians need to accept defeat and move on with their lives.
If you accept defeat, and move someplace else, then when the people who defeated you grow they will do the same thing again and again... you know how it goes, they can't let that happen.

If somebody came and took my house, and i knew they were stronger i would still camp out right in front of my property, with signs and everything, and they can throw rocks at me or humiliate me to try to make me leave, but i will stand my ground until i get what is rightfully my house.

Kidman
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman

If somebody came and took my house, and i knew they were stronger i would still camp out right in front of my property, with signs and everything, and they can throw rocks at me or humiliate me to try to make me leave, but i will stand my ground until i get what is rightfully my house.

Kidman
That's okay if I would be the only one affected. If I was affecting the stability and future of my children, I'd take other actions.
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Keltoi
08-03-2006, 06:00 PM
The Palestinians need to worry about forming their own state alongside Israel. Holding on to some fantasy of destroying Israel leads to a dead end road.
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Kidman
08-03-2006, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
That's okay if I would be the only one affected. If I was affecting the stability and future of my children, I'd take other actions.
and teach your children to give the bully what he wants? I would rather have my children watch me die fighting for my freedom.

The Palestinians need to worry about forming their own state alongside Israel. Holding on to some fantasy of destroying Israel leads to a dead end road.
That is what they are trying to do. They have their own state, but Israel is still in control and wont let the Palestinians control it themselves.

Kidman
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Palestinians need to worry about forming their own state alongside Israel. Holding on to some fantasy of destroying Israel leads to a dead end road.
The Palestinians ultimately accept the two-state solution and have recognized on several occassions. It is Israel who has failed to recognize the peacetalks and negotiations. The Camp David talks is a prime example where Israel has broken off negotiations while they were a brick away of agreeing on a fruitful solution.
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Keltoi
08-03-2006, 06:06 PM
[QUOTE][and teach your children to give the bully what he wants? I would rather have my children watch me die fighting for my freedom.
/QUOTE]

So says the person in Arizona.
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Keltoi
08-03-2006, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kadafi
The Palestinians ultimately accept the two-state solution and have recognized on several occassions. It is Israel who has failed to recognize the peacetalks and negotiations. The Camp David talks is a prime example where Israel has broken off negotiations while they were a brick away of agreeing on a fruitful solution.
Yasser Arafat sabotaged the Camp David accords when he changed his demands to include the right of return, which to Israel is a non-starter. Which Arafat knew very well.
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searchingsoul
08-03-2006, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
and teach your children to give the bully what he wants? I would rather have my children watch me die fighting for my freedom.

Kidman
Maybe it would teach the kids that human life is more important than pride.
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kadafi
08-03-2006, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Yasser Arafat sabotaged the Camp David accords when he changed his demands to include the right of return, which to Israel is a non-starter. Which Arafat knew very well.
Greetings

That is not true and is in fact an old-recycled myth by Israeli apologists.

It has been debunked by Ali Abunimah and Hussein Ibish based on New York Times and Los Anngeles Times:

5. Israel's generosity

"Arafat spurned Barak's generous offer at Camp David and broke off negotiations with Israel."

One of the most powerful myths propagated in the US media today is that at the Camp David summit in July 2000, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak made an amazingly generous offer to the Palestinians that Yasir Arafat wantonly spurned, broke off negotiations and then launched a violent uprising against Israel. No element of this, the most cherished of media myths is true. In fact, Barak's offer was anything but generous. It was Israel that broke off the negotiations, and the committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell found no evidence to back the Israeli claim that the Palestinian Authority had planned or launched the Intifada.
This myth was given life in large part by President Clinton who immediately after the Camp David summit broke his promise to Arafat that no side would be blamed for failure, and went on Israeli television declaring that while Barak made bold compromises for peace, Arafat has missed yet another opportunity. Let's go through the evidence bit by bit.
Barak's "generous" offer

What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."
The proposal would have meant:
  • no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
  • no control of its external borders,
  • limited control of its own water resources, and
  • no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.

In addition, the Barak plan would have :


  • included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
  • codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
  • meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
  • required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a "Greater Israel", rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.
See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality at http://electronicIntifada.net/coveragetrends/generous.html.
John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that
"it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty."
[Source: "The Impossible Partition," New York Times, January 11, 2001]
The reality was far from the wild claims routinely made on the editorial pages of American papers that Barak had offered the Palestinians, 95, 97 or even 100% of the occupied West Bank. Barak himself wrote in a New York Times Op-ed on 24 May 2001 that his vision was for
"a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley."
[Source: "Building a Wall Against Terror," New York Times, 24 May 2001].
In other words, if Barak intended to keep 15 percent of "Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), he could not have offered the Palestinians more than 85 percent.
No one can seriously talk about Israel being willing to end its settlement policy if 80 percent of its settlers would have remained in place.
Robert Malley who was Clinton's special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs, participated in the Camp David negotiations. In an important article entitled "Fictions About the Failure At Camp David " published in the New York Times on July 8, 2001, Malley added his own, insider's challenge to the Camp David myth. Not only did he agree that Barak's offer was far from ideal, but made the additional point that Arafat had made far more concessions than anyone gave him credit for. Malley wrote:
"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."
Malley rightly concluded that, "If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality."
The negotiations continued

While it is true that the July 2000 Camp David summit ended without agreement, the negotiations did not end. They restarted and continued until Barak broke them off in January 2001. Since then Israel has refused to enter political negotiations with the Palestinians.
On 19 December 2000, six months after Camp David, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators returned to Washington and continued with negotiations. These negotiations were based on a set of proposals by President Clinton which went beyond Barak's offer of July 2000, but still fell short of minimum Palestinian expecations. Nevertheless, the Palestinians went on with the talks.
By some accounts these were proving fruitful. The Los Angeles Times reported on 22 December 2000, that:
"Amid signs that the two sides appear to be edging toward some sort of compromise on the emotional issue of Jerusalem, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked through the start of the Jewish Hanukkah holiday Thursday expressing a rare shared optimism."
[Source: Los Angeles Times, December 22, 2000. "Hopeful mood fuels talks on Mideast peace; Negotiations: Israelis, Palestinians work through Jewish holiday as signs surface of a compromise."]
In January 2001, the talks moved to Taba, Egypt, where they reportedly continued to make progress. They broke off at the end of January, and were due to resume but Barak canceled a planned meeting with Arafat. Shortly thereafter, Barak lost the election to Ariel Sharon, and the talks have never resumed.
The New York Times reported on January 28, 2001:
"Senior Israeli and Palestinian officials concluded nearly a week of stop-and-start negotiations in Taba, Egypt, tonight by saying jointly that they have "never been closer to reaching" a final peace accord but lacked sufficient time to conclude one before the Israeli elections on Feb. 6..... At a joint news conference in Taba, Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami of Israel called the two-way talks, from which the Americans were conspicuously absent, "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations in this phase of the peace process." He said the two sides hoped to pick up where they left off after the elections -- although his boss, Mr. Barak, is expected to lose."
Source: New York Times, January 28, 2001, "Mideast Talks End With Gain But No Accord."
So how is it then that all these commentators and Israeli officials continue to deny that talks which the Israeli foreign minister at the time called "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations," never took place? How is it that so many continue to claim that it was the Palestinians who walked away from the bargaining table when it was Israel that stopped the talks and refuses to resume them?
Regards
Reply

Kidman
08-03-2006, 09:09 PM
So says the person in Arizona.
Ya, so what? I was born and raised in Cali... and now live in AZ... what's your point?

I would do the same thing and fight by america's side if anyone came here and tried to take this land from me...

Kidman
Reply

Kidman
08-03-2006, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Maybe it would teach the kids that human life is more important than pride.
have you not seen my signature, scroll down on it...
Reply

Keltoi
08-03-2006, 09:20 PM
http://www.mafhoum.com/press/53P2.htm

A link from an article that describes the Camp David negotiations and President Clinton's feeling that Arafat sabotaged the negotations because of the so-called "right of return". If you want to label all media outlets except "electronicintifada" as false, then there isn't much point in disussing the issue. If you have read Clinton's personal memoirs, you will remember his feelings on the matter. Perhaps everyone is lying and an "apologist" for Israel, but Bill Clinton staked alot of his political reputation on the mid-east peace deal, and never forgave Arafat for what happened.
Reply

kadafi
08-03-2006, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
http://www.mafhoum.com/press/53P2.htm

A link from an article that describes the Camp David negotiations and President Clinton's feeling that Arafat sabotaged the negotations because of the so-called "right of return". If you want to label all media outlets except "electronicintifada" as false, then there isn't much point in disussing the issue. If you have read Clinton's personal memoirs, you will remember his feelings on the matter. Perhaps everyone is lying and an "apologist" for Israel, but Bill Clinton staked alot of his political reputation on the mid-east peace deal, and never forgave Arafat for what happened.
Keltoi

I still that you have completely disregarded refutation to this myth and went on searching for some 'alternate view'.

Clinton has popularised this myth while he promised prior to the peace talks that no side would be blamed for the failure of the talks.

Robert Marley (Clinton's assistant in the Middle East Affairs) comments:

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises."
Further, the negotiations continued. Refer to my previous post about the NewYork/LosAngeles times comments.


Ewen MacAskill from Guardian UK writes:

Israel's view that Arafat missed a chance for peace under Barak is dangerously deluded
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...473066,00.html
More sources:

Barak shares blame for Camp David failure, says Clinton aide
http://www.mideastjournal.com/campdavid2000fisk.html

Regards
Reply

lavikor201
08-03-2006, 09:42 PM
What makes your sources so much more credible than his sources...

Both parties were equaly responsible. Your sources don't exactly have unbiased reputations either.
Reply

afriend
08-03-2006, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Why are palestinians still in refugee camps?

Why don't they leave and join other Arab nations?
It's not easy to leave your homeland....especially when it's such a blessed land :(
Reply

kadafi
08-03-2006, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
What makes your sources so much more credible than his sources...

Both parties were equaly responsible. Your sources don't exactly have unbiased reputations either.
His article is merely a news article from years ago that merely states the views of Clinton. It is not an analysis.

Clinton's views have been refuted in several 'myths and realities' analysis of the Camp David.

Guardian UK provides an excellent coverage about this view and New York times were also baffled by Clinton's view for blaming Arafat.

Regards
Reply

Dawud_uk
08-04-2006, 07:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
So the Palestinians just need to keep fighting and waiting for allah? I'm sorry, I don't buy that. The rest of the world doesn't buy it either.

I think your religious claim is just as valid as the jewish claim that they are the chosen people. Maybe it's true. No one will know until they die.
Allah does not change the position of a people until they change themselves, when the muslims return to the deen and return to jihad then the muslim lands will be liberated.

we are patient because we have trust in Allah and in his promise, we know when we are true to the deen of islam we will be helped more and more by Allah.

mock if you want, but our trust in Allah is total.

Daw'ud
Reply

searchingsoul
08-04-2006, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Allah does not change the position of a people until they change themselves, when the muslims return to the deen and return to jihad then the muslim lands will be liberated.

we are patient because we have trust in Allah and in his promise, we know when we are true to the deen of islam we will be helped more and more by Allah.

mock if you want, but our trust in Allah is total.

Daw'ud
I admire your trust in allah as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. And no, I wasn't mocking your faith or religion. If I offended you, I apologize.
Reply

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