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Dahir
07-29-2006, 07:18 AM
Simple Question - what are Western values?

Seems we all have a take on Western values, the West says we should all value their way of life, which I have my entire life. But what is it they want us to value, and is it good?

What are Western values? An illusion. What is the illusion? A play on words.

The West says we should value globalism, but what is globalism? A code word for imperialism.

The West says we should value liberalism, but what do they mean by "liberalism?" A code word for sodomy and cheap liquor.

The West says we should value freedom, but what exactly is "Western Freedom?" It is freedom of sin, yes! Freedom to drink liquor openly, freedom to exploit copulation (porn), freedom to express oneself publicly (dress demonic, be nude, kiss in public - with kids around).

Maybe I'm a bit biased against Western values and maybe I'm "old-school" and I value Eastern stuff, like sentimental values of family and faith, the mind, all the good old stuff we no longer need, want, or value!

What's your take on Western values? If you have your own, more educated idea of Western values, add to my ideas or prove me dead wrong. Any thoughts are welcome, even "publicly espressive" ones. :D
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Keltoi
07-29-2006, 06:35 PM
Western values? I can't answer for all of the West, but if you are talking specifically about American values the thing I think of is personal liberty. Yes, the freedom to sin if that is what you want, but also the freedom to start a business, the freedom to say what I want about my own government, access to educational opportunity, etc, I could go on and on. Many of these values have been adopted across the globe. Some people can't handle a truly free and "liberal" society, because of the decay of "traditional" values. Christians have been facing this traditional decay for a century now. It is a mixed bag. Traditional "American" values that existed for so long only exist in the South now, to any great degree. I don't think American administrations expect countries to become as "liberal" as the U.S., the important aspect is democracy.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-29-2006, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
What are Western values?
They were a nice idea... like ancient Babylon. It was intended to resolve the arguments that were caused by tribal differences in tradition. We decided that "truth' was dependant on individual interpretation so we wouldn't decide among the tribes, who had the 'real' religion. We would simply allow everyone to worship in whatever tradition they chose to follow, leaving the issue of faith up to the people.

You see, the Judeans viewed the Babylonian exile as a punishment from God, but that wasn't true. It was never a punishment. It was a favor. When they lived in Babylon, they didn't cease to be Jews. They weren't deprived of their heritage. They could be who ever they wanted to be... but it was entirely up to them. Somewhere during their stay in Israel, they forgot that and became addicted to a stupid rock - as if that rock had the power to decide who they were. They faught amongst themselves over it, and were cut from it - so they could learn faith, which is carried in one's heart and nowhere else.

America took that ideal to a whole new level. The idea was to create a land that anyone could live in. We have all sorts of people here, from all kinds of different faiths and traditions, but they decide who they are... no one else decides that for them. All of the people here decide and define themselves. That's how this country was started. Many came here to avoid religious persecution elsewhere.

It was a wonderful idea - but it fell apart. Too much freedom is a bad thing. At times, freedom itself can cause conflicts, such as the case with the necrophiles in New Orleans. It's true we should allow others to worship as they see fit, but that doesn't give one group the right to disrespect another. The rituals of the necrophiles require a corpse and those are usually obtained by invading cemeteries and desecrating graves that do not belong to them. In cases like this, how do you rule? You have no choice but to deny them religious freedom because that freedom interferes with the rights of others. So they scream that freedom is fake and it's just an illusion. It's a difficult balancing act, but I did feel at one time, we were on the right track.

Other places brought me sorrow. Places like Jerusalem, where hundreds of thousands have died in wars over a stupid rock! So and so did this on the rock. So and so did that on the rock. It's witchcraft. No one should die because of a... rock! The Jews go nuts over the remains of an old wall there, but it wasn't the rocks that made their Temple - it was their laws that decided how that Temple would be built and yet, they'd throw their laws out the window for a pile of stones and then lecture others on Avodah Zarah. Ha!

In America, when people follow a religion it's because that religion actually matters to them. They feel it and it comes from inside them. Here, I can talk to God if I want, and people can think I'm crazy, but so long as I'm not causing harm to others, they can't do a thing to stop me. I can learn whatever language I choose to, follow what ever tradition moves me, and write what ever I wish. In my corner of the world 911 was just a question Osama bin Laden once asked. He wanted me to answer it. That question was: How does it feel? It was a fair question, and it's my country's fault it had to be asked the way it was... so many had asked us before but we didn't listen. The words I write are mine and no one, here, can take that right away. Bush can try, but I'll just tell him what he told Zarqawi: Bring it on!

The western ideal was working... it's just not being upheld very well these days. Our governments are allowing us freedom while denying other countries that same right. None of us working class realised that was happening. We were being distracted by a disgusting array of problems on the home front. Things that hurt us like the cost of housing going through the roof, the fact that companies can deny us health-care or the fact that even though we paid, all of our lives, towards our retirement, the money will be gone before we reach retirement age. I realize now that these things were meant to distract us. An evil government has taken power and seeks to destroy what this country once stood for.

Western Values used to mean... for the people.

Ninth Scribe
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Ex_
07-29-2006, 06:50 PM
I think America is greatest country in the world, just imagine if japan or china was in Americas shoes right now, i think the world would be a very different place and probably for the worse.

America is powerful but promoter of peace and democracy and never uses it's powers unless for the good of mankind.

I love you George Bush, and keep up the good job
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Ex_
07-29-2006, 06:56 PM
America the land of the brave and home of free.

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Keltoi
07-29-2006, 06:59 PM
[S]Remember the Alamo[/S]
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mujahedeen2087
07-29-2006, 07:06 PM
western values used to be about God king and country. also family values. very similar to islamic values. however now its become perverted.
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Keltoi
07-29-2006, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mujahedeen2087
western values used to be about God king and country. also family values. very similar to islamic values. however now its become perverted.
Maybe "Western" values, but American values are about God and country, the king or queen could jump off a cliff...:)
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mujahedeen2087
07-29-2006, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Maybe "Western" values, but American values are about God and country, the king or queen could jump off a cliff...:)
yeah i said they used to be that way back in old europe and in the begining of america before the revolution.
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KAding
07-29-2006, 07:19 PM
I would say "Western values" are a mix between Christian values and liberalism. Christian values are still valued, but at the same time the idea is not to allow the state to outlaw those actions that are not harmful to others. Individual freedom is essential. If someone wants to work in the porn industry, and someone else wants to watch it than that really isn't the business of the state. The same goes for adultry. Western values don't say 'adultry is good', but they do say that it is not the for the state to intervene in the personal lives of two consenting adults. This level of freedom leads to excesses, but also creates a vibrant and diverse society, with many different social groups with different approaches in the pursuit to happiness. For example, one can become a nun, a materialist, or embrace Eastern spirituality, it is up to the individual to decide.

In reality I don't believe that Western and Islamic values are very different. How to enforce them is different though IMHO.

It appears to me that Muslims want a very strong state, one that enforces the religious laws. The government taking the place of God, a sub-God if you will, that does the judging while people are still in this life.
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Keltoi
07-29-2006, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I would say "Western values" are a mix between Christian values and liberalism. Christian values are still valued, but at the same time the idea is not to allow the state to outlaw those actions that are not harmful to others. Individual freedom is essential. If someone wants to work in the porn industry, and someone else wants to watch it than that really isn't the business of the state. The same goes for adultry. Western values don't say 'adultry is good', but they do say that it is not the for the state to intervene in the personal lives of two consenting adults. This level of freedom leads to excesses, but also creates a vibrant and diverse society, with many different social groups with different approaches in the pursuit to happiness. For example, one can become a nun, a materialist, or embrace Eastern spirituality, it is up to the individual to decide.

In reality I don't believe that Western and Islamic values are very different. How to enforce them is different though IMHO.

It appears to me that Muslims want a very strong state, one that enforces the religious laws. The government taking the place of God, a sub-God if you will, that does the judging while people are still in this life.
I agree with these statements. It is a mixed bag of good and bad, but a person's faith and the way they live their life is still up to them.
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Link
07-29-2006, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It appears to me that Muslims want a very strong state, one that enforces the religious laws.
Even secular people have laws. For example, you steal, their is a punishment. You kill, their is a punishment. Not alot of people in the world believe in anarchy. So almost everyone agrees on the neccessity of law and order. The differences in Islam, is that laws come from God, not some people, and the punishments and enforcements are from God. We trust his judgement and not the judgement of ignorant people.

Also the judges must judge with full knowledge - and do so according to revelation - not their whims. The Messenger (saw) judged by means God makes him see, judge with justice according to what God revealed, as shia I believe this continued to his successors, and the scholars should judge according to the way adopted by the Messenger (pbuh) and his successors (as).

No one has the right according to Islam, to judge according to his own opinion and judgement, and no laws pertaining to society can be formulated from other then revelation.

We all follow law and order and judgements. The diffrence between us and the west, is that we believe in God's laws, order, and judgemetns, and not some opinions of some people.
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nennar
07-29-2006, 07:45 PM
salaam!

"I think America is greatest country in the world, just imagine if japan or china was in Americas shoes right now, i think the world would be a very different place and probably for the worse.

America is powerful but promoter of peace and democracy and never uses it's powers unless for the good of mankind.

I love you George Bush, and keep up the good job"?????????????????????????:grumbling

so whta have they been promoting???? peace???? democracy????? ohh they did a good job in vietnam! they did a good job in south america!!!! it doesent matter where they go.... they destroy everything....... but´yeahhh we love ya bush
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mujahedeen2087
07-29-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nennar
salaam!

"I think America is greatest country in the world, just imagine if japan or china was in Americas shoes right now, i think the world would be a very different place and probably for the worse.

America is powerful but promoter of peace and democracy and never uses it's powers unless for the good of mankind.

I love you George Bush, and keep up the good job"?????????????????????????:grumbling

so whta have they been promoting???? peace???? democracy????? ohh they did a good job in vietnam! they did a good job in south america!!!! it doesent matter where they go.... they destroy everything....... but´yeahhh we love ya bush
yes america is the strongest nation on earth right now. one of the most advanced. and a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$
but america is not the most moral.
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mujahedeen2087
07-29-2006, 07:51 PM
oh and also im glad the "ex_muslim" was kicked out. i think he was here to only start trouble.
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nennar
07-29-2006, 07:55 PM
yes i think he was to! i am not saying that everything in america is bad!!!! denmark to is not a country of true values.....
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mujahedeen2087
07-29-2006, 08:01 PM
america is the only nation i would want to live in at this time. i know it is corrupted but other nations dont look to great either. i would rather live in the true islamic state.
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nennar
07-29-2006, 08:02 PM
yes me to! but where is this country?
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Link
07-29-2006, 08:13 PM
I believe iran is closest to the ideal Islamic state - but i believe a full true Islamic state can be only be implented by an infallible which I believe is Imam Mahdi (as).

They (reference to Iranian People) managed to bring that system (Monarchy) to its knees and create a government of the people which was based on Islamic tenets and spiritual principles. Its (reference to the government) actions are relatively Islamic. Our spirit is Islamic. I cannot say that our actions are totally Islamic. They are relatively Islamic and, God willing, they will have to become more and more Islamic every day. They brought such a state to power.

Ayatollah Khamenei (ha)
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nennar
07-29-2006, 08:14 PM
i think you are right! sadly
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
07-29-2006, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ex_Muslim
I think America is greatest country in the world, just imagine if japan or china was in Americas shoes right now, i think the world would be a very different place and probably for the worse.

America is powerful but promoter of peace and democracy and never uses it's powers unless for the good of mankind.

I love you George Bush, and keep up the good job
only pathetic ppl wud think that..
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Joe98
07-29-2006, 11:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
It is freedom of sin, yes!
According to religious people, God gave people free will.

The reason we have laws is because people have free will.

If there was no free will no laws would be required.

Maybe there is no God?
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Dahir
07-30-2006, 12:56 AM
According to religious people, God gave people free will.

The reason we have laws is because people have free will
.

If there was no free will no laws would be required.

Maybe there is no God?
Totally correct (in Bold). I just think we should promote decency a bit more. DECENCY! We turned decency into something that should be shunned and reminiscent of oppression. Modesty is also something that should be promoted, all in all, promote CLASS, we need CLASS in the West! CLASS!
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guyabano
07-30-2006, 09:38 AM
@Dahir : Nice Picture you have there !

I guess, comparings between east and west can not been made. At least not in our century. Maybe someday, when Captain Picard is there :D
While West lives after democratic rules, freedom to do and to express what they like, in east, they still tend more to live after religious values. But there could be eternal discussions, which system would be better. This is also what happened few centuries ago in western world. So hold on, East, maybe in 2 centuries, you will reach the same standard than West
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Ninth_Scribe
07-30-2006, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mujahedeen2087
western values used to be about God king and country. also family values. very similar to islamic values. however now its become perverted.
Sad, but very true. It is up to those faithful, you all know who you are, to remind America, in the many ways you can... we're meant to serve the people. We are not meant to harm, rob or rape them.

Ninth Scribe
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KAding
07-30-2006, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
Totally correct (in Bold). I just think we should promote decency a bit more. DECENCY! We turned decency into something that should be shunned and reminiscent of oppression. Modesty is also something that should be promoted, all in all, promote CLASS, we need CLASS in the West! CLASS!
In honesty, I don't really see that much more 'class' in non-Western countries. But nevertheless, I agree with you, we must promote decency. But I don't agree with letting the state enforce it.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-30-2006, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mujahedeen2087
america is the only nation i would want to live in at this time. i know it is corrupted but other nations dont look to great either. i would rather live in the true islamic state.
When Abu Musab named the two conditions that had to be met before he would lay down his arms (this was one of his famous rants), the second condition was that Sharia be installed upon the whole of the Earth. I replied, using the issue of Jill Carroll as an example: The question I ask about Sharia is this. You say you can't harm a woman unless she is proven to be a spy conspiring against Muslims. Another group who call themselves Mujahideen, say they will execute Jill Carroll based on Sharia. Has Jill Carroll been proven to be a spy, conspiring against Muslims? Do YOU agree with this decision? If there is no AGREEMENT concerning Sharia, you have bigger problems to deal with and the sword has a lousy track record for solving these types of problems... {edit}

This is only one of many examples meant to demonstrate how the rule of Law (in any country) can become twisted. Perhaps by some, not intentionally, but no country, no religion and no court is immune to the problem.

Ninth Scribe
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Curious girl2
07-30-2006, 08:27 PM
To some people yes. But *the west* as you put it, is made up of many people with many different values. You really cant generalise about this because what is acceptable to one westerner is completely unacceptable to another.

Yes there is an underclass as such whose values have become perverted to most decent minded people. But not all westerners are like that, and its not exclusive to the west either. All societies have one, even the most God-fearing, strictly religious society (of any religion) will have one, though often it is covered up and not reported about.

Curious



format_quote Originally Posted by mujahedeen2087
western values used to be about God king and country. also family values. very similar to islamic values. however now its become perverted.
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Curious girl2
07-30-2006, 08:29 PM
How delusional of you.

Curious


format_quote Originally Posted by Ex_
I think America is greatest country in the world, just imagine if japan or china was in Americas shoes right now, i think the world would be a very different place and probably for the worse.

America is powerful but promoter of peace and democracy and never uses it's powers unless for the good of mankind.

I love you George Bush, and keep up the good job
Reply

barb
07-31-2006, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Link
Even secular people have laws. For example, you steal, their is a punishment. You kill, their is a punishment. Not alot of people in the world believe in anarchy. So almost everyone agrees on the neccessity of law and order. The differences in Islam, is that laws come from God, not some people, and the punishments and enforcements are from God. We trust his judgement and not the judgement of ignorant people.

Also the judges must judge with full knowledge - and do so according to revelation - not their whims. The Messenger (saw) judged by means God makes him see, judge with justice according to what God revealed, as shia I believe this continued to his successors, and the scholars should judge according to the way adopted by the Messenger (pbuh) and his successors (as).

No one has the right according to Islam, to judge according to his own opinion and judgement, and no laws pertaining to society can be formulated from other then revelation.



We all follow law and order and judgements. The diffrence between us and the west, is that we believe in God's laws, order, and judgemetns, and not some opinions of some people.








" We all follow law and order and judgements, the difference between us and (Them), is that we believe in God's laws, order and judgements, and not some opinions of some people".................[/I][/B]

:cry: :cry: :cry: ......you see, the very bad, hard problem is that the above statement could have been written, and is also believed in the very heart of hearts of faithful Christians and Jews.
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gamsta3
07-31-2006, 03:22 PM
democracy means the demons have gone crazy. Thats what i this sheikh said in one of his lectues. I just thought it was really funny.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-31-2006, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by gamsta3
democracy means the demons have gone crazy. Thats what i this sheikh said in one of his lectues. I just thought it was really funny.
Yes, well the learned sheikh has a valid point from his perspective of democracy - it is insane to point a gun at someone's head and say: Vote... or we'll kill you! What adds to this insanity is the humiliation... the people who make these demands aren't even your own. They're foreigners who have no understanding of your traditions and no respect for your people. They just want someone they can do business with, so the choices you're offered to vote on aren't even your own!

Now, as I understand it, Maliki is being told what to say and what not to say and a Muslim king upheld a U.S. request to deny a burial and for that, I doomed him to spend his eternity with that which is already buried in Jordanian soil that he feels is so damn pure it should not be 'stained'... because that's only fair. Maybe now that Israel and the U.S. are showing off their true colors he might come to understand why he shouldn't have been courting disaster?

America used to be the land of the free... the working class, who are the backbone of this country were honored with good, hard-working lives. That's what we were promised. Now, we're being treated like slaves and I for one and not going to just sit back and allow that to happen... and neither should the Muslims in their own lands.

This is something we all share in common!

Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
07-31-2006, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, well the learned sheikh has a valid point from his perspective of democracy - it is insane to point a gun at someone's head and say: Vote... or we'll kill you! What adds to this insanity is the humiliation... the people who make these demands aren't even your own people. They're foreigners who have no understanding of your traditions and no respect for your people. They just want someone they can do business with, so the choices you're offered to vote on aren't even your own!

Now, as I understand it, Maliki is being told what to say and what not to say and a Muslim king upheld a U.S. request to deny a burial and for that, I doomed him to spend his eternity with that which is already buried in Jordanian soil that he feels is so damn pure it should not be 'stained'... because that's only fair. Maybe now that Israel and the U.S. are showing off their true colors he might come to understand why he shouldn't have been courting disaster?

America used to be the land of the free... the working class, who are the backbone of this country were honored with good, hard-working lives. That's what we were promised. Now, we're being treated like slaves and I for one and not going to just sit back and allow that to happen... and neither should the Muslims in their own lands.

This is something we all share in common!

Ninth Scribe
As for Maliki, if the U.S. controlled his voice like a puppet, he wouldn't have denounced Israel. Maliki is concerned for his own political future, and voicing support for Israel would be the end of his career in Iraq.
The working class in America has been damaged by the growth of mega corporations and outsourcing, of that there can be no doubt. This situation didn't happen overnight, and a country in the first stages of democracy and development does not have to make the same mistakes as the U.S. in that regard. Just because you vote doesn't mean you must adopt the same political and economic system as the U.S., and I think that reality has been accepted within the U.S. government.
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Ninth_Scribe
07-31-2006, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
As for Maliki, if the U.S. controlled his voice like a puppet, he wouldn't have denounced Israel. Maliki is concerned for his own political future, and voicing support for Israel would be the end of his career in Iraq.
The working class in America has been damaged by the growth of mega corporations and outsourcing, of that there can be no doubt. This situation didn't happen overnight, and a country in the first stages of democracy and development does not have to make the same mistakes as the U.S. in that regard. Just because you vote doesn't mean you must adopt the same political and economic system as the U.S., and I think that reality has been accepted within the U.S. government.
I mistrust Maliki only because of his penchant for political posturing. I was actually pleased when he stood up and told the U.S. he liked Iran and would not allow the U.S. to attack it from Iraq. I'll have faith in him if he stands by that decree. Likewise, I'll lift my curse on the King of Jordan if he decides to obey the law and allow a family to bury their dead. I'm not an unreasonable person and I'm willing to accept the fact that we (Americans) allowed the U.S. government to degrade... but we trusted them to handle politics while we handled the mechanics of life (all the vocations it takes combined to build a community)... and now we're all in the soup for that. So, I'm not as trusting these days.

Ninth Scribe
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