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Silver
07-29-2006, 11:22 AM
Since the year 700 B.C , Lebanon was occupied by various nations :egyptians,greeks,persians,arabs,ottomans,the french,the syrians...and none of them ever managed to fully control the small country.The ottoman sultan was never able to put Lebanon under his control until WW1 and the lebanese encouraged the arabs to revolt which they finally did.
The french were forced out of the country in 1943,the syrians too in 2005 after the assasination of PM Rafik Hariri credited for rebuilding the country.The israelis were also forced out of the country in 2000 by the lebanese resistance (Mostly Hezbollah in the 90's and many other christian/muslim groups before 1990).
This is a country that has a reputation of humiliating its ennemies often stronger than the lebanese...but now the majority here have had enough,we are gonna make it through this war like we always have and the so-called "invincible israeli army" has already suffered a lot of losses,it's not just us...they were surprised by the determination of the lebanese people.But the majority want this to be the final war.This country has suffered so much, more than any other country.And here is what the majority here want:
1-A cease fire.
2-A prisoner exchange
3-An israeli retreat from the Chebaa farms (and a paper form Syria declaring that they are lebanese which the syrians haven't done so far)
4-A UN peace-keeping force on the borders.
5-Hezbollah militants joining the army.
6-A redeployment of the army to defend the borders.
7-A map from Israel indicating the places of the mines containing explosives in southern Lebanon that they left behind in 2000.

And we also wanna sue Israel for destroying the infrastructure and killing 600 civilians (though we know they won't pay).

I'd like to know.What are your opinions on these demands?
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KAding
07-29-2006, 11:27 AM
These demands sound very reasonable.

Do you think either Israel or Hezbollah would agree with them? If not, why not?
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Silver
07-29-2006, 11:40 AM
Hezbollah does agree with those demands because their ministers in the lebanese cabinet voted for these demands which means that they're not against them.
As for Israel,I don't think they will agree on the cease-fire unless it's under their own conditions.They wanna destroy Hezbollah themselves which apparently they can't do.Hezbollah represents from 30 to 40% of the population and they have fork 14 to 17 seats in the parliament,they can't just destroy them...they won't be able to do it.
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HeiGou
07-29-2006, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Lara
Hezbollah does agree with those demands because their ministers in the lebanese cabinet voted for these demands which means that they're not against them.
Well no. It is not beyond any Lebanese politician to vote for something they have no intention of supporting. Perhaps Hezbollah knows these demands will be rejected and so support them because they are painless?

The problems are: 1. prisoner exchanges. Israel should not reward kidnappers as that just encourages more kidnapping. I doubt that Israel holds any Lebanese prisoners who do not deserve it anyway. Those people deserve to remain in jail. 2. Letting Hezbollah join the Army means that the Army will become Hezbollah as it is mainly Shia anyway. I suppose that the Lebanese could live with that and any coup would be 10 to 15 years away anyway. But deploying it to the border means deploying Hezbollah to the border. Which gets no one anywhere.

The solution to this problem is in the hands of the Lebanese. They will have to decide if they want peace with Israel or more war. If they want peace they have to restrain terrorist groups who operate from within Lebanon.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 11:57 AM
Letring hezbollah join the army means that hezbollah will be disarmed,and the army is under the command of Genearl Michel Suleiman ,he decides along with other generals when to start a war and he's a christian.The army is also controlled by the government so no,it won't be the same
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HeiGou
07-29-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Lara
Letring hezbollah join the army means that hezbollah will be disarmed,and the army is under the command of Genearl Michel Suleiman ,he decides along with other generals when to start a war and he's a christian.The army is also controlled by the government so no,it won't be the same
Since when did they disarm people who join the Army? Surely it means that either they will get their own units (i.e. renaming Hezbollah units as the 43rd (or whatever) Regiment of the Lebanese Army) or they will be merged into the larger Lebanese Army into existing units as individuals. Either way the Lebanese Army will become much more pious - the Shah of Iran tried to conscript Mullahs but found they simply preached to the soldiers and in the end the Army became more pious and refused to defend the Shah. Generals think they decide such things but in the real world they only do so if the soldiers agree. Lebanon is going to opt to run the risk of going the same way as the Shah of Iran, but as I said it will take a few years.
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 12:41 PM
Israel is always to blame right? I mean for goodness sakes look at the productivity and growth being developed in israel it's unsurmountable.

Funny thing is, when you look at google earth and see Israel and it's well developed fields and land, and on the other side the lebanese thirld world infrastructure then will you realize the real problem is POVERTY and with that comes hate for the people who have more then you (Israel).
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Silver
07-29-2006, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Israel is always to blame right? I mean for goodness sakes look at the productivity and growth being developed in israel it's unsurmountable.

Funny thing is, when you look at google earth and see Israel and it's well developed fields and land, and on the other side the lebanese thirld world infrastructure then will you realize the real problem is POVERTY and with that comes hate for the people who have more then you (Israel).
First of all,I'd like to tell u that I don't hate the israelis.I even speak to israelis on MSN and i'm lebanese!our countries are at war!
I am against Israel's policy here.
And by the way our infrastructure isn't as bad as you think and 1.6 million tourists were coming here cos it's a beautiful country.There were already 600 000 tourists here in June.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
No the root of the problem is Arabs and the sooner the you realize that the better. Israel has been under constant attack by islamic militant from the day it became a state and that is just not acceptable.

Israel has all the given right to defend it's citizen at whatever cost and it's doing so by making hezbollah an example for the whole arab world.
We'll never agree on that.I have a different point a vue and i won't change it and u won't change yours.But I'd like to know your opinionn about the lebanese demands.
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:01 PM
I agree with the two points you made 4 and 6, the rest isn't going to happen as long as ehud olmert is in power.

The prisoner exchange isn't going to happen because Israel does not deal with terrorists. and the ceasefire is impossible now because we started the job so were going to have to end it.

And as for the Hezbollah after this war hopefully they will be in such a weakened position they will be insignficant.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 01:06 PM
Someone on the internet told me that they haven't heard of it in israel but Hassan Nasrallah has agreed that the government negocitiates ,not Hezbollah.U haven't heard of that?
And form 400 to 600 civilians were killed here and infrastructure even in the north where there aren't really any hezbollah supporters and no militants have been hit.What do u think of that?
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Lara? Your looking for every excuse under the sun to point the blame on Israel. Israel isn't looking to kill civilians but in a war civilians die and that's a bloody fact we can not change.

Israel's goal is simple. We are a economically vibrant, retain the 5th strongest army in the world and have a multicultural landscape.

However Israel has always had one problem and that's security!!! All we want is to live in peace without thinking if were going to die from a katyusha missile or a suicide bomber.

Is that too much to ask for.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 01:14 PM
No it's not,we wanna live in peace just like you do.But the families of the civilians getting killed especially in Palestine will hate Israel even more wether u think the IDF killed them by mistake or not.
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afriend
07-29-2006, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Lara? Your looking for every excuse under the sun to point the blame on Israel. Israel isn't looking to kill civilians but in a war civilians die and that's a bloody fact we can not change.

Israel's goal is simple. We are a economically vibrant, retain the 5th strongest army in the world and have a multicultural landscape.

However Israel has always had one problem and that's security!!! All we want is to live in peace without thinking if were going to die from a katyusha missile or a suicide bomber.

Is that too much to ask for.
Who's your daddy?

Seriously, answer the question.....

You brag about being the 5th strongest army in the world......Who's your daddy? (I know it sounds dumb, but still...It gets to the point!)

You brag about good agriculture etc. Who's land are you sitting in, eh?

If it wasn't for the Americans, and the British in WWII, you'd be nothing, so you have nothing to brag about......You owe everything you have to those two countries, I happen to be living in both of them.........

Those demands are reasonable enough if both parties would have a cease fire for just a small time span....
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Kittygyal
07-29-2006, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
We are confident that we can defeat the Arabs in warfare, history has proven that in every(3 major wars) encounter Israel has had with Arabs it has defeated them and done it very quickly.

However Israel does have a weakness and thats terrorist organizations be it hamas, hezbollah or whatever. When we fight them our winning rate is never good however we will perservere as the best as we possibly can.
so your up for a fight with hamas, hezbollah ?? :rollseyes
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afriend
07-29-2006, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
We are confident that we can defeat the Arabs in warfare, history has proven that in every(3 major wars) encounter Israel has had with Arabs it has defeated them and done it very quickly.

However Israel does have a weakness and thats terrorist organizations be it hamas, hezbollah or whatever. When we fight them our winning rate is never good however we will perservere as the best as we possibly can.
You make me laugh....the way you brag on about it, thinking it was YOU who did it....But no! Of course not, it was all 110% by the backing of the US.....So you know, they deserve to brag, not you.....And don't even think abut going against that statement, you might anger the Americans, and then they might stop funding your Amry/country......So watch out, make sure you all remain slaves, for the rest of your lives......From Fearow until even today, you always have been, and always will be in the debt of other nations/people......
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:30 PM
Who's your daddy?

Seriously, answer the question.....

You brag about being the 5th strongest army in the world......Who's your daddy? (I know it sounds dumb, but still...It gets to the point!)

You brag about good agriculture etc. Who's land are you sitting in, eh?

If it wasn't for the Americans, and the British in WWII, you'd be nothing, so you have nothing to brag about......You owe everything you have to those two countries, I happen to be living in both of them.........

Those demands are reasonable enough if both parties would have a cease fire for just a small time span....
Excuse me? America only donor 3 billion dollars annually into Israel and thats strictly for artilleries. Besides in America Jewish people dominate it's economy and i think the 3 billion dollars is the least they can do for us considering we have hostile arabs surrounding our borders.

America is a beautiful country, however the amount of funding Jewish people put into political parties over there, we decide who "we" want their president to be.

I mean we allow the American people to vote because you cant take away democracy but democracy has loop holes that can be manipulated very nicely.

See you fund two political parties who have "Pro Israeli" views and get them to be the two leading candidates to battle off for the presidency.

We dont care who wins, we still win because both a pro israel.
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afriend
07-29-2006, 01:34 PM
See? You can't stand on your own two feet, you always require the help of some other powerful nation......You are also very scheeming and very crook like.......interfering with another county's politics, shame on you......

You know what? Go find a home, and some limbs too.....
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
However Israel has always had one problem and that's security!!!
:sl:
I know how you feel. Those Plalestinian olive trees are downright scary. And I'm so sorry that kids armed with vicious, deadly rocks have been pounding your poor defenceless millitary installations for years. And all Israel did to provoke them was take over their land, level their villages and cause large amounts of anti-Arab racism.

If King Zurg of Mars came down and took over most of your country, kicking you out into poverty, wouldn't you want to to form a resistance and fire rockets at him?

Also, I don't like your attitude to Arabs. I don't hate Jews, and most of the people on this forum don't. We just hate Israel as a country. You, Moshe, on the other hand, seem to think that the Arabs are the problem. The most famous Israeli on the board, Lavikor, doesn't harbour such racist views. In fact, the only Jews I've seen who think that the Arabs are the problem are a few Israeli extremists, such as Sharon. The problem, according to most of the Israelis that I've seen expose their views, is Arab terrorism, not the Arabs in general.
:w:
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afriend
07-29-2006, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I know how you feel. Those Plalestinian olive trees are downright scary. And I'm so sorry that kids armed with vicious, deadly rocks have been pounding your poor defenceless millitary installations for years. And all Israel did to provoke them was take over their land, level their villages and cause large amounts of anti-Arab racism.

If King Zurg of Mars came down and took over most of your country, kicking you out into poverty, wouldn't you want to to form a resistance and fire rockets at him?

Also, I don't like your attitude to Arabs. I don't hate Jews, and most of the people on this forum don't. We just hate Israel as a country. You, Moshe, on the other hand, seem to think that the Arabs are the problem. The most famous Israeli on the board, Lavikor, doesn't harbour such racist views. In fact, the only Jews I've seen who think that the Arabs are the problem are a few Israeli extremists, such as Sharon. The problem, according to most of the Israelis that I've seen expose their views, is Arab terrorism, not the Arabs in general.
:w:
All makes just too much sense to me....

I can rep Lavikor a hundred times as he doesn't turn to racism/anti-Arab comments/insults.

Also, he always has a logical point......
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:41 PM
Jewish people are not interfering in other countries politics? We just want to make sure the most powerful man in the world (American President) is Pro Israel!!!.

If we don't have a say in American politics, well we can always take our money and put into israel and lets see how America would cope!!! i can gurantee you their would be a recession.

But thats not going to happen because were allies and share the same views.
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:43 PM
Arabs? I don't hate them. I just simply love my people. if thats a crime then shoot me.
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Jewish people are not interfering in other countries politics? We just want to make sure the most powerful man in the world (American President) is Pro Israel!!!.

If we don't have a say in American politics, well we can always take our money and put into israel and lets see how America would cope!!! i can gurantee you their would be a recession.

But thats not going to happen because were allies and share the same views.
:sl:
What do you think of the Respect party? They share a lot of the same views as Muslims, (including being anti-Israel) and once had a seat in parliament.
:w:
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Silver
07-29-2006, 01:48 PM
Cool down guys!That way you cannot communicate or convince eachother and you know it.
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:49 PM
Chapter 5: 20-21, which says Moses declared, "O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

So the age old arguement of who Israel belongs to is clearly over. Theres no question Judaism/Christianity believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Even Islam's holy book regonize Jewish people as the rightful owners of Israel.

Arabs are rightful owners of mecca and we are not going to dispute that with you, its all yours we dont anything of that place but leave our Israel alone.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 01:52 PM
But what about the palestinians who already lived there when jewish immigration started.Don't they have the right to live there and have a country?
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:53 PM
And don't say "Jewish people broke the covenant with their lord" as an excuse either?

Jewish people have broken their covenant with the lord more than once, and have been exiled from israel, but have always been forgiven and returned back to israel.

The quran doesn't even say anything about exiling jewish people from israel. it just says "do not turn tail otherwise you will be the losers" nothing about EXILE.
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Even Islam's holy book regonize Jewish people as the rightful owners of Israel.
:sl:
The Quran definitely says that Israel once belonged to the Israelites, but most Muslims believe that it hasn't belonged to them since the Jews were evicted by the Romans.

And Muhammad predicted the Muslim conquest of Israel anyway, along with that of Constantinople (even the name of the man who did it), Persia, and India.
:w:
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afriend
07-29-2006, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Chapter 5: 20-21, which says Moses declared, "O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers."

So the age old arguement of who Israel belongs to is clearly over. Theres no question Judaism/Christianity believe Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Even Islam's holy book regonize Jewish people as the rightful owners of Israel.

Arabs are rightful owners of mecca and we are not going to dispute that with you, its all yours we dont anything of that place but leave our Israel alone.
Firstly, you can't just read one ayah of the quraan and put it as it is, secondly, i don't think that it's exactly YOUR'S, it shares religious importance with 3 of the main religions of the world, so stop trying to be such selfish, inconsiderate person...even jews of israel are willing to share their country, it's just people like you who are just......It's best not said I think......
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:55 PM
Lara.Israel is the holy land of the Jews and palestinians have always been living there from the time of Jacob and his brother esau(phillistine) but the governance of the country has and will always remain with the jewish people.
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Moshe
07-29-2006, 01:58 PM
I have many palestinian friends, i love the culture and food and hospitality.
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 01:59 PM
Well Moshe, i think reducing an entire countries infra structure to rubble over the kidnapping over two soldiers is a bit far fetched.[BANANA][/BANANA]
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Silver
07-29-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Lara.Israel is the holy land of the Jews and palestinians have always been living there from the time of Jacob and his brother esau(phillistine) but the governance of the country has and will always remain with the jewish people.
I have chatted with many israelis and evnthough all of them do share your point of vue about Israel's security and hamas and hezbollah but they did say that they do think that the palestinians have the right to have their own independant country.
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:03 PM
No ones denying that jews dont have a right to live in that part of the world. But u should live there as an ethnic minority, amongst the majority muslims. Not as a superpower state despised by everyone. Like this u will never have peace. Furthermore, i dont think the state of Israel is even legal under Jewish Religious law either. Correct me if im wrong but your religion says Israel should not exist as a country until certain big prophecies have occured, right.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by gamsta3
Furthermore, i dont think the state of Israel is even legal under Jewish Religious law either. Correct me if im wrong but your religion says Israel should not exist as a country until certain big prophecies have occured, right.
Really?!
I never knew that!Where'd you get it from?I'd like to know plz.
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Silver
07-29-2006, 02:09 PM
This thread was about the lebanese demands and none of u is discussing that!
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afriend
07-29-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Probably the smartest man i have met here? very good point!!!

Now Israel has lost soldiers before, it will soldiers now, and it will lose soldiers in the future. If you think this war is about those two soldiers being abducted then you have another thing coming.

This war is about sending a message to the arab world that israel is no nonsense and the humantarian efforts that American/British use in time of war do not apply to us. Lebanon is just a warning too all other arabs to notice the strength of the israeli army.
I'm not going to express my anger towards this, filthy, sick, horrid statement.

But to kill innocent children and women, and children, just to show your power? Now that is the worst thing I have heard in a long time....

the UK is a stronger country than Israel, just to show it's power, they nuke you and make all of u people deformed? Nice way of showing strength right? I'm sure that will never happen, and I hope it doesn't as that's just ridiculous :(
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afriend
07-29-2006, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
I want to know why is it legal under islam to kill a jew for no reason?
That's not true....And that will never be allowed, even in war, to kill innocent people.....

And back to Lebanon (sorry sister Lara, some points just had to be addressed), their capital is in turmoil, who's going to help re-build?

Israel should be made to pay apparitions as this was useless carnage, they got everything but the target :(
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
I want to know why is it legal under islam to kill a jew for no reason?
:sl:
No its not. I really hate non-Muslims who think they know more about Islam than Muslims, BTW. They usually end up in my hall of shame.
:w:
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:18 PM
Response to Lara
I saw it on some t.v programme about the different jewish sects in Israel. But since Moshe does not know of this then i guess i'm wrong. I' not claiing to be a jewish scholar or anything. But i am positive, if my memory serves me correctly, that there is a big problem amongst the jewish sects regarding the leaglity of their country. To deal with this problem, i think they have been playing with words, by calling it the state of Israel which means its a state but not a state or something really complicated like that. But then again i m not raelly sure?
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:21 PM
Theres a rumour, that Isael started all this on purpose, so that they can increase the oil price, decrease the value of the dollar, and thus help them come closer to their dream of becoming the super power of the world. Beleive it or not but i think they are actually trying to sink America.
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:23 PM
Im morocaan. When Spain forcibly expelled its jewish population, it was in arab muslim maghrib that they found safe refuge.
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Iqram, so what do you want israel to do just sitt back at let the arabs exterminate us.
:sl:
Since when did the Arabs want to exterminate Jews? Get rid of Israel and replace it with a state of New Palestine, yes, but not exterminate the Jews. Even the Iranian President probably doesn't want to do that.

They sure did that to the jews in khaibar in mohamed times... oops i shouldn't know that should i.
The people who were executed were war criminals or something. And this allegation has been refuted hundreds of times anyway.
:w:
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afriend
07-29-2006, 02:25 PM
They did what in khaibar??? You see, there is nothing wrong about knowing things about other religions, atleast learn what is right!

Khaibar-At the end of the war, a jewsih lady invited the prophet [saw] and the companions [ra] to a feast, they accepted and even then, the jews, as always, cunning and sneaky, tried to poison the Prophet [saw], but failed and then martyred another companion [ra].

Also, the reason for this attack was because they had a treaty, and they broke away and transgressed upon the clauses of the treaty, and in those days, if you break a treaty, it means war......

If only you knew that...it would have been ok.....
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:25 PM
Yeah sorry Lara
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Now im not going overly religious now but i just hate it when people say islam is peaceful when i know things like this exists.
:sl:
That attack will probably happen because of the current occupation of Palestine.
:w:
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 02:58 PM
Sometimes i go to jewish religious websites. Why is there always a picture of a rabbi about to blow on a trumpet?
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Imagine if the Mexican-American community in California, whose numbers are greater than the number of Palestinians in the West Bank, decides tomorrow to claim that the United States is occupying their land, because they live there and they want their own Mexican state. Imagine if, when the U.S. government says, "No, you can live here, but you cannot have sovereignty, you cannot have your own state," they start sending suicide bombers, shooters, mortars, etc. into the rest of the country. What do you think would happen?
:sl:
The Mexican-Americans aren't being forced to spend their whole lives in refugee camps.

Imagine that King Zurg of Mars came down from space with his fleet of ultra-high tech space battlecruisers, and took over most of the planet, evicting humans from their homes and levelling their cities. You are forced to live either in squalid refugee camps, or in the rest of the planet, which is impoverished because of it's destroyed infrastucture. No army on Earth can defeat the Martian army, and all the other civilisations in space agree with the Martian's occupation of Earth. How would you feel?
:w:
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:25 PM
Moshe I don't want to get into a long debate with you ... but unless you are an Arabic Jew as in of middle eastern origin you have no rights to Israel.... Jacob is Israel ... can you honestly tell me you have a direct link to him? if you are European and I have met many of what you call ashkenazic Jews , They are descendants of the khazars and have no rights to be in the holy land...This is just to answer the portion of how Israel the holy land belongs to you ... aside from that I don't wish to get into a heated debate over the usual......... nothing
the land of Palestine was "supposedly" promised to the seed of
Abraham. If one researches the Ancient Hebrew laws, the right of decent or
Inheritance is based on the eldest son, no matter whom the mother is. If
this is the case, then the land was promised to Ishamel (for he was the
eldest of Abraham's sons) and the Father of Palestinian Arabs. In addition,
modern day Jews from Russia, Poland and most parts of Eastern Europe have NO
genetic link to the ancient Hebrews - they for the most part are decendents
of Khazars, who converted to Judaism in the 7th century (this has been
documented by Jewish scholars, not Arabs). The modern day Palestinians can
claim a more direct link to the Hebrew tribes than the founders of modern day
"Israel." What the Western Press purposely avoids mentioning is the fact
that at the start of the 20th century, less than 5% of the land of Palestine
was Jewish. The modern State of Israel was built on lands illegally taken and
assimilated from Palestinian Christians and Muslims. Also, the Hebrews only
ruled the land of Palestine for a combined 411 years - the Muslims have ruled
the land for 1,500 years. In addition, the land of Canaan (Palestine) had a
history long before the Jewish tribes immigrated to the area.

NATIONHOOD AND JERUSALEM
1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
The use of the word “nation” is ambiguous unless it is defined. It is confusing and misleading to use a modern notion and apply it to what happened in 1312 BC. This is how Black’s Law Dictionary defines the word "nation":

“a people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.”
According to this definition Israel became a nation once it became an independent kingdom in 1011 BC (King David 1011-971 BC; and King Solomon 971-931 BC). In 931 BC, the kingdom was divided in two: Israel in the north, (capital Samaria) from 931 to 722 BC; and Judah in the south (capital Jerusalem) from 931 to 587 BC.
Samaria fell to Assyria in 722 BC and a large portion of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 209 years.
Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 587 BC and the cream of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 344 year.
The total number of years during which Israel was a "nation", even if we take into consideration the small Kingdom of Judah is 424 years. Outside this period Israel was more of a religion than a nation.
The Pittsburgh Platform of 1885 was issued by a group of reform rabbis. It stated: “we consider ourselves no longer a nation but a religious community" (see full text of Pittsburg Platform ).
Furthermore, a letter dated April 20, 1964, from Assistant Secretary of State Phillips Talbot to Rabbi Elmer Berger stated: the State Department "does not recognize a legal-political relationship based upon religious identification of American citizens ... it should be clear that the Department of State does not regard the Jewish people concept as a concept of international law" (see full text of the letter ).
Israel ceased to be a nation in 587 BC. It became a nation again in AD 1948. According to the definition given in Black’s Law Dictionary Jews who are not Israelis do not belong to the Israeli nation, they belong the Jewish faith like their coreligionists in Israel.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel.
First, there are no Arab refugees in Israel, unless the writer has already annexed the Occupied Territories, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon to Israel.
The problem of the Palestinian refugees, that the writer calls “Arab” refugees to confuse the reader and avoid using the word Palestinian, started from the moment Israel was established in 1948, since some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and their homeland and were not allowed to return. There is even a UN resolution that deal with the Palestinian refugees. It is General Assembly resolution 194 of 11 December 1948. The resolution deals explicitly, among other things, with the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes.
Whether the "Arab" refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967 or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is today a universal aknowledgment that there is a Palestinian people, even Israel acknowledges this fact. To deny it won't solve the problem of Israel.


3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
What is said in No. 1 above is relevant here. I detect a contradiction between what is said in 1 above and what is being said here. How can Israel be considered a nation in 1312 BC (see No. 1 above) when the "Jewish conquest" of the land of Canaan occurred later in 1272 BC?
There can be no nation without “inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth,” according to the definition. The continuous presence in the land, if we accept it for the sake of argument, was a presence of the Jews as individuals not as a nation. Following the first revolt, the Romans destroyed the Temple in AD 70. After the second revolt (AD 132-135), the Jews were either killed or sold into slavery and dispersed in the Roman Empire. Emperor Hadrian built a temple in honor of Jupiter on the site of the Jewish temple and issued a decree that prohibited under penalty of death the presence of the Jews in Jerusalem. The prohibition was lifted after the Muslim Arab conquest.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
In 638, not 635, Jerusalem and Palestine, were conquered by the Muslim Arabs. The Muslim rule lasted from 638 to 1099, from 1187 to 1229 and from 1239 to 1917 which is the year Jerusalem fell to General Allenby. In the interim periods, that is from 1099 to 1187 and from 1229 to 1239 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The total number of years Muslims ruled Jerusalem and Palestine is 1,181 years not 22. The writer was off the mark by just 1,159 years. It should be mentioned that before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War One, there was only one dominion, Muslim dominion. Speaking of Arab dominion is misleading.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
Jerusalem was a Jewish capital for no more than 424 years (see No. 1 above). In fact, Jerusalem was a meaningful capital only when the kingdom established by David was unified, that is from 1011 BC to 931 BC, or 80 years. The fact that Jerusalem was never a capital of any Arab or Muslim entity doesn't make it less of an Arab city. San Antonio has never been the capital of the United States. Does this mean that it is a Mexican city?

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
What does this suppose to mean? What is the conclusion that must be drawn from this statement? How about counting the number of times Jerusalem was mentioned in the New Testament?

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
The answer given in 6 above is relevant here. Again, what about Jesus? In their profession of faith, Christians say at every mass: “for our sake he (Jesus Christ) was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures." These events didn't happen in Paris or New York but in Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
Another incongruous statement. What are we supposed to make of it? The issue is not a religious one, as the author is trying to establish from points 5 to 8 . It is an issue of self-determination of a disenfranchised indigenous people. Also, the writer is presenting the issue as if it is an issue between the Jews and the Muslims ignoring the fact that the Arab Christians in the Middle East outnumber the Jews of Israel and the billion Christians in the world outnumber the 14 million Jews. The fact also is that Christianity has more holy sites in Jerusalem than Judaism and Islam combined. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the holiest place in Christianity, is in Jerusalem. If the issue is a religious one, then the Christians' claim is stronger than that of the Jews or the Muslims.


ARAB AND JEWISH REFUGEES

9. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
Simha Flapan in his book, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, refers to the terrorists methods used by the Haganah, Irgun and LEHI to force the Palestinians out of their homeland. Flapan estimated that “84 percent (of the Palestinians) left in direct response to Israeli actions.” The Irish journalist, Erskine Childers, examined the American and the British radio-monitoring records for all 1948. In his article "The Other Exodus" that appeared in the (London) Spectator of May 12, 1961, he wrote the following: "There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." (see the full text ).

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
The Jews were forced to flee the Arab countries not because of Arab brutality but because of Jewish brutality. Akiva Orr in his book Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises wrote the following: “in 1948 Jews were not expelled from countries like Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya, but induced to leave by Zionist emissaries from Israel who often used dirty tricks like throwing bombs into synagogues to create the impression of anti-Jewish persecution to stampede the Jews to Israel.” Once in Israel, some of the Iraqi Jews have even sued the Israeli government for damages. Also, Wilbur Crane Evenlan, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) wrote in his 1980 book Ropes of Sand: America's Failure in the Middle East:

"In attempts to portray the Iraqis as ani-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. ... Although the Iraqi police later provided our embassy with evidence to show that the synagogue and library bombings as well as the anti-Jewish and anti-American leaflet campaings had been the work of an underground Zionist organization, most of the world believed reports that Arab terrorism had motivated the flight of the Iraqi Jews whom the Zionists had "rescued" really just in order to increase Israel's Jewish population." (pp. 48-49)
For a first-hand account by an eyewitness, read Naeim Giladi's testimony in The Link of April-May 1998, published by the Americans for Middle East Understanding, Inc. Read The Jews of Iraq .
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
Again the Palestinian refugees, (not Arab refugees) who left Israel in 1948 did not leave Palestine voluntarily but were driven out by the Jewish terrorist organizations (see 9 above). On the other hand, the Jewish “refugees” left voluntarily or induced to leave from their Arab homelands (see No. 10 above).

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
Should we show our appreciation to the writer for his concern about the Palestinian refugees who were “INTENTIONALY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands?” The writer is lamenting the fact that the Palestinians are “the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples’ lands.” Well, their land is Palestine. I am all for their return to their land. The writer wants the Palestinian refugees to be absorbed in the Arab lands. This is exactly how criminals think. They want to remove any trace of the crime they have committed; then they can delude themselves that they have a clear conscience.


THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
If the writer knew how to count he would have found out that there are 20 Arab states not 8. Whether there are 20 or 70 Arab states, Palestinians are entitled to live in their homeland. As far as the "five wars" intitiated by the Arabs: The first war was the 1948 war and was triggered by the establishment of Israel. The 1956 war was started by Israel with the help of France and Great Britain. The 1967 war was started by Israel. The 1973 war was launched by Egypt and Syria to liberate their occupied territories, not more. The 1982 war against Lebanon was started by Israel.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.
The PLO Charter has been amended and all clauses calling for Israel’s destruction were cancelled. On April 24, 1996, the Palestine National Council voted 504 to 54 to cancel those clauses. Contrary to what is stated, Israel has NOT given the Palestinians most of the West Bank. The West Bank was divided into three zones: Area A fully controlled by the Palestinian Authority consists of 12%; Area B jointly controlled by Israel (security control) and the Palestinian Authority (civilian control) consists of 26.8%; and Area C totally controlled by Israel consists of 61.2%. Who then controls most of the West Bank? (see map )

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
Under Jordanian rule Israel, the Jewish state, was officially at war with Jordan. Under the Israeli rule, Muslim and Christian Palestinians from the occupied territories are today denied access to places of worship. Those Muslims and Christians who have access to places of worship are Israeli citizens. Desecration of holy sites is done by fanatics. There is no shortage of them among Muslims, Christians and Jews.


THE U.N. RECORD ON ISRAEL AND THE ARABS

16. Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 97 times.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 429 times.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
Why is it that Israel did not complain to the U.N.?

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
The U.N. is not a super government. Member states must take the initiative to complain or ask for a Security Council meeting to take up their complaints.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
See answer given in No. 19.



These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?
These are indeed incredible times. We should tell our grandchildren the truth.

For those of you who were kind and interested enough to read, the preceding, let me add two more items:

a) Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL
For Israel to be a member of the Security Council it has to belong to one of the five following groups: Asian states, African states, Latin American and the Caribbean states, Eastern European states, and Western Europe and other states. If no one group wants to accept Israel as a member then there must be something wrong with Israel.
BTW this latter portion was written by a middle eastern christian not a Muslim
Reply

gamsta3
07-29-2006, 03:26 PM
Even if Israel does have a strong army, it is still a small country and it is surrounded by arab state after arab state after arab state. I mean even with the help of the u.k and u.s.a, how realistic is it for such a small fragile country to really survive that long into the future. I mean i have never seen israel attacked in such a way in all my life. Considering there are only 2 or 3 major cities in Israel, it really wouldnt take very long to destroy Israel, even with a poorly equiped small rag a tag army. I mean, just look at the havoc a small guerilla army like hezbollah has done to you, never mind if countries like egypt and syria and iran were to really come into it. Do u really think such a small and fragile strip of land could seriously withstand a serious war against a serious army. U must be out of ur mind. I mean hezbollah has singlehandedly already set fire to almost half of your country. What will your future policy be, nuke any country that throws a half decent assualt on the 2 or 3 cities and the surrounding small settlements u have?
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Listen, if you need to cut and paste rhetoric then save it.
And if you need to repeat non historically based rhetoric then also save it ... that is actually a reply to the BS flooding the net ... can't make up history and can't make up religious books to suit your end.... It doesn't work out that way...... by the way if Israel is a fortress at all and a bed of democracy it is because of my tax dollar ... If Palestine is in shambles and in rots it is because my tax dollar isn't going to them due to Israeli imposed sanctions....... now back to topic
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HeiGou
07-29-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
They did what in khaibar??? You see, there is nothing wrong about knowing things about other religions, atleast learn what is right!

Khaibar-At the end of the war, a jewsih lady invited the prophet [saw] and the companions [ra] to a feast, they accepted and even then, the jews, as always, cunning and sneaky, tried to poison the Prophet [saw], but failed and then martyred another companion [ra].
So you're claiming it is not fair to say, for instance, all Muslims are terrorists based on the fact that pretty much all terrorists are Muslims, but it is fair to say that all Jews are cunning and sneaky because 1400 years ago a single Jewish woman allegedly tried to poison Muhammed?

Also, the reason for this attack was because they had a treaty, and they broke away and transgressed upon the clauses of the treaty, and in those days, if you break a treaty, it means war......

If only you knew that...it would have been ok.....
So it is fair to drive the entire Jewish population out if one of them breaks a treaty in some way - and what did they do to break it by the way? Why isn't it fair to drive out the entire Muslim population out of Palestine, or indeed Lebanon, if they refuse to sign or obey a Treaty? For that matter why can't Britain and Spain expell their Muslim populations on the grounds that some of them have broken their treaty?

After all, fair's fair.

So far you have been a reasonable poster. Do you really mean all the things you are now saying?
Reply

HeiGou
07-29-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by gamsta3
Well Moshe, i think reducing an entire countries infra structure to rubble over the kidnapping over two soldiers is a bit far fetched.
What do you think would be reasonable? The Arabs went to war with Rome because the Romans kept one single Muslima prisoner. Was that justified? They invaded India because some pirates captured a small number of Muslims and the King could not do anything to return them. Was that justified?
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
gamsta, another pusher of rhetoric let me teach you something about history!!!

Israel and Arabs have battled three major wars and all of those major wars none of them lasted more then a week(it shows how incompetent the arabs are in fighting).

Secondly, I do agree Israel has always had problems with defeating terrorists because their cowards who won't come and show their faces and fight but who hide in civilian terrorities launching katyusha rockets.

If Israel really wanted my friend, it could conquer the middle east in 72 hours.
No need for name calling just because you can't handle the truth and that true terrorism started by your haganah, irgun and stern gang......
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 03:40 PM
Hey Moshe
I agree with u 100%. I a really being objective here though. Cant u see it just will not work in the long run? Just taking into account the sheer laws of physics, it just will not work no matter how any a bombs u stack, its like me filling my back garden with all the latest gear and then declaring it seperate from the rest of britain and then raising a star of david flag over my house. I mean, if i was in israel and if i was israeli, i still just would not be able to see it working to long into the future. My desire was not to humiliate. Personally, i think that what we r witnessing in haifa, is the beginning of the end for Israel. Its just comon sense.
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Israel was done no favours by the UN either, it was given the biggest waste dump of the middle east. I mean nothing was growing!!!! yet we took care of the land and nurtured it back too health and you palestinians want it back. NO WAY HOSE
Glad 6 billion a year are going to good use while one in four children sleeps hungry right here in NY .... Israel will have its day...
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:44 PM
Israel has refused all UN resolution, and still violates all human rights and the dignity of Palestinians to live in their own land. Resolution 181 and 194 for starters .........
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gamsta3
07-29-2006, 03:47 PM
Im not trying to claim to have the monopoly over the truth. I just think that maybe rome, india and all that was a very long time ago. In this day and age with the cameras of the world looking at u, i just think u need more of a reason to obliterate a neighbouring country.
Yes the muslim turks caused mass genocide to the christian armenians.
Yes the christian germans caused mass genocide to the europen jews.
So whats the solution to all this in the 21st century. Shall i kill u and your entire family in front of cnn then the qoute these two incidents as justification.
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جوري
07-29-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
PurestAmbrosia. Palestine is a region. do you think before israel Bought the land of Palestine that palestinians called themselves "Palestinians" no they didn't they called themselves "arab" because PALESTINE never existed.
I know you are not much into history so I won't post a link to what Palestine was from the Bronze age until now.... again any Arabic person living in the area Muslim, Christian or Jew can claim a more direct link to (Jacob) who was Israel for all intensive purposes more than the masses that have migrated there ... given that less than 5% of modern Jews are in fact of middle eastern origin, I hazard say... Israel ..... the original Israel isn't you unless you are in fact a middle easterner...... and again ... if land of canaan was promised to Abraham then it should go to his first born no matter who the mother was ... his first born was Ishmael father of modern day Muslims ... forget about this and that ... in the bible... Abraham asks for a land to bury his wife Sarah ... if he owned the place why did he make a purchase? why not just bury her? He was making a point!! ... in your own religious mind do you believe Israel to be a secular state or a religious state?
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adi8putra
07-29-2006, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Israel is always to blame right? I mean for goodness sakes look at the productivity and growth being developed in israel it's unsurmountable.

Funny thing is, when you look at google earth and see Israel and it's well developed fields and land, and on the other side the lebanese thirld world infrastructure then will you realize the real problem is POVERTY and with that comes hate for the people who have more then you (Israel).
for god's sake, not all of us are blaming israel for involving in this war. we acknowledged that hizbollah is WRONG in starting this war. we also acknowledged that israel has the right to defend itself and we also acknowledge the fact that israel has the right not to negotiate with hizbollah on the terms and conditions of ending this war. BUT, we also acknowledge that all of these DOES NOT give israel the liberty of using disproportionate force in punishing the lebanese people as a whole as in some kind of collective punishment. israel enemy is hizbollah, NOT the average lebanese people (including christians and others faith), NOT the lebanese infrastructure and certainly NOT the lebanese relief helpers (ambulance drivers etc)........:rollseyes

the real problem is NOT poverty, but rather the prejudice views of both the lebanese and the israeli's alike.......:uhwhat
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adi8putra
07-29-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
No the root of the problem is Arabs and the sooner the you realize that the better. Israel has been under constant attack by islamic militant from the day it became a state and that is just not acceptable.

Israel has all the given right to defend it's citizen at whatever cost and it's doing so by making hezbollah an example for the whole arab world.
[S]that's racist dude![/S]

certainly u cant blame it all on the arabs, do u? that will also be anti-`semite's brethren'....:giggling:
(the arabs is the brethren of the jews, dont they?)
Reply

جوري
07-29-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by adi8putra
for god's sake, not all of us are blaming israel for involving in this war. we acknowledged that hizbollah is WRONG in starting this war. we also acknowledged that israel has the right to defend itself and we also acknowledge the fact that israel has the right not to negotiate with hizbollah on the terms and conditions of ending this war. BUT, we also acknowledge that all of these DOES NOT give israel the liberty of using disproportionate force in punishing the lebanese people as a whole as in some kind of collective punishment. israel enemy is hizbollah, NOT the average lebanese people (including christians and others faith), NOT the lebanese infrastructure and certainly NOT the lebanese relief helpers (ambulance drivers etc)........:rollseyes

the real problem is NOT poverty, but rather the prejudice views of both the lebanese and the israeli's alike.......:uhwhat
please don't speak for all of US acknowledging that Hezballah is wrong ... until they free the prisoners held illegally in their prisons some for over 28 yrs without due cause ... hand over the map for the mines in Lebanon which continues to kill children. the Brutality used against Palestinians for no particular reason as was reported in their own Haretz and as seen in the video which I know is a drop in an ocean of brutality can we come and state yes how awful they should have kidnapped those two innocent soldiers which by the way many believe were trotting Lebanese territory... So you want to acknowledge wrong speak for self not on our behalf
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afriend
07-29-2006, 04:14 PM
You know what? Stop going off topic, there are tons of this type of topic in this forum, go dispute there, this thread has a specific purpose, please stick to the topic, jazakallah.
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afriend
07-29-2006, 04:24 PM
You know....Patriotism doesn't get you anywhere.....Only causes disunity later on.....
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HeiGou
07-29-2006, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
You know....Patriotism doesn't get you anywhere.....Only causes disunity later on.....
Europe is a haven of peace and transquility. The Muslim world is not. You think patriotism might have something to do with it?
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جوري
07-29-2006, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Are you being serious adi8putra? tell me of a war in any time of history when civilians weren't killed?

None

Purestambrosia, Ishmael was never promised any land he was son of a handmaiden and the implications your making are grossly miscalculated.

Ashkenazi? Sephardic? whatever you want to term jews is your problem. Israel is promised to JEWISH PEOPLE not HEBREW people you racist bigot
What in hell are you talking about? Ishmael was the eldest son ... it doesn't matter who the mother is ... that is according to your own Hebrew scholars or do you write texts as you see fit and improvise along the way? either way all these messengers from God Originally came from that region, a middle eastern region they traveled along the paths from Yemen to Iraq ... Again no genetic link between the current colonial settler apartheid state of Israel and those biblical characters. You don't have to check a book of history just read any science books that speaks of lysosomal storage diseases that affect only Ashkenazic Jews... Jews of European origins or are they too bigots and racists? you keep ignoring that simple fact ... you don't want to acknowledge it ... that is fine ... you want to defy even your own religions by establishing a secular state which supposedly you were promised before awaiting prophecies to unfold again your call ... it doesn't matter to me either way not does it influence what I believe ....... and have you a bigger vocab than racist bigot? Is this a joke? go down a Propanaolol
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afriend
07-29-2006, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Europe is a haven of peace and transquility. The Muslim world is not. You think patriotism might have something to do with it?
I've adopted the American thinking speeds....Please ellaborate ;D

if it's what I'm thinking it is, then:

That's what I'm trying to get accross....Patriotism causes disunity.....
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adi8putra
07-29-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
This war is about sending a message to the arab world that israel is no nonsense and the humantarian efforts that American/British use in time of war do not apply to us. Lebanon is just a warning too all other arabs to notice the strength of the israeli army.
wowoww.... now the smartest things that i've ever heard from u. first u brag about israel having the 5th mightiest armies on earth. than u complained that this mightiest army have got problem with those tiny whiny hamas & hezbollah fighters.... for god's sake, u r a jew and dont ever forget on the lesson to be learned from david verses goliath stories originating from ur own jewish history....:giggling:

.... & talking about the strength about the israeli army, i'm truly impressed. after 18 days of fighting, u still cant defeat a tiny whiny adversary. that's truly impressing....:rollseyes
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afriend
07-29-2006, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by adi8putra
wowoww.... now the smartest things that i've ever heard from u. first u brag about israel having the 5th mightiest armies on earth. than u complained that this mightiest army have got problem with those tiny whiny hamas & hezbollah fighters.... for god's sake, u r a jew and dont ever forget on the lesson to be learned from david verses goliath stories originating from ur own jewish history....:giggling:

.... & talking about the strength about the israeli army, i'm truly impressed. after 18 days of fighting, u still cant defeat a tiny whiny adversary. that's truly impressing....:rollseyes
Yeah.....

Israel's checklist:

Children=Check
Houses=Check
School=Check
More children=Check





Hizbullah=urm...
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 04:34 PM
:sl:
If Israel is always so good and never mistreats people, then what is this?
:w:
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adi8putra
07-29-2006, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Occupation? What occupation Israel is regonized as an indepent sovereign nation by the UN. There is no occupation rhetoric
living in denial wont help ur cause either...:rollseyes
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[I:GM] Forum
07-29-2006, 04:40 PM
subhanAllah
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afriend
07-29-2006, 04:40 PM
I couldn't bear to read all of it.....I'm not going to pass any judgements about Israelis as a whole, but all I'm saying is, the army is ruthless.....And it's supposed to get backed by the USA, they should have soe sort of code of conduct....But israel's code of conduct is:\

Kill at any chance :)
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جوري
07-29-2006, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
ezekiel 2517

You arabs want to kill us go ahead because GOD WITH HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE
God's chosen are ones who prostrate themselves to him ... ones who don't transgress against others ... ones in whose hearts there is piety and goodness.... not ones who wish to eradicate of people so that God would have no choice but to accept them..... if you were god's chosen bring you proof ... where is your messenger to lead you to the promised land?
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جوري
07-29-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
That is a prophesy from YAHWEH to all the children of israel, that our enemies will always be the eventual loser. and the prophecy is coming true ISRAEL HAS NEVER LOST A WAR TO ARABS AND THEY HAVE HAD 3 MAJOR WARS
OK ... you are just being a kid ... and humanity hasn't ceased to exist yet....... God/yahweh/elohim/Allah/ Doesn't like injustice or those who do evil on earth... So until this book is finished.... And you get your might truly from Yahweh not the united states of America, its mighty weapons and mighty dollar can we see without a doubt that you were chosen above all.... I can't engage this any more ... it is touching upon really preposterous.....
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 04:56 PM
:sl:
Oi, Moshie! I have posted a document written by the BBC that says that many Israeli leaders should be executed for war crimes. They abducted and tortured a boy who was as old as me, and kept him for forteen years. If you have any reason why the perpatrators of this monstrosity don't all deserve to be shot (although I think shooting them wouldn't do justice to this horrific crime), speak now.

Unless you think it's right to take away the childhood of an innocent Lebanese boy, in which case I hate you absolutely and utterly.
:w:
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Then why do you hate Jewish people for? Arabs have jewish people from day one the day Abraham chose isaac before ishmael and threw ishmael and hagar into the desert and unfortunately to our dismay, ishmael survived
:sl:
I don't hate Jewish people, but now that I read that BBC interview I most certainly hate Israel. Now, will you respond to that BBC article or I will assume that you love torturing children.
:w:
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HeiGou
07-29-2006, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
all I'm saying is, the army is ruthless.....And it's supposed to get backed by the USA, they should have soe sort of code of conduct....But israel's code of conduct is:\

Kill at any chance :)
Israel has dropped about 10,000 tonnes of bombs on Lebanon. That's about the same as the Americans dropped on Hiroshima. That killed 60,000 people. The Israelis have killed about 800. Hezbollah has fired about 50 tonnes of explosives at Israel. They have killed about 20 civilians. You can see that by any rational comparison Israel is extremely careful not to kill civilians - far more so than Hezbollah for instance. They are not killing at any chance.
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Fishman
07-29-2006, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Fisherman as much as i dislike arab "children are always going to be children and their sanctity be preserved at all cost" i mean seriously their can't be any rational human being who thinks killing a child is going to further your cause its ludicrous.

But the BBC is a left wing anti israel establishment who's reporting has been at times doubtful.
:sl:
What do you mean by
as much as i dislike arab "children are always going to be children and their sanctity be preserved at all cost"
?

The BBC is run by the British government. if you think Britain is leftist and Anti-Israel, then why does Tony Blair support Israel? And BBC is one of the best of the major news companies, much better than the propaganda-spouting Israeli (or sometimes Arab) newspapers.
:w:
Reply

afriend
07-29-2006, 05:08 PM
800 civilians....That's not a joke of a number....

Hizbullah are failing in their primary cuase, but atleast they are not unleashing the full power that they have upon the civilians of Israel, 20:800 is a huge difference......
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adi8putra
07-29-2006, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
please don't speak for all of US acknowledging that Hezballah is wrong ... until they free the prisoners held illegally in their prisons some for over 28 yrs without due cause ... hand over the map for the mines in Lebanon which continues to kill children. the Brutality used against Palestinians for no particular reason as was reported in their own Haretz and as seen in the video which I know is a drop in an ocean of brutality can we come and state yes how awful they should have kidnapped those two innocent soldiers which by the way many believe were trotting Lebanese territory... So you want to acknowledge wrong speak for self not on our behalf
first of all, read my lips! i'm saying "not all of us " & nowhere does i denotes as "all of us". so, chilled out will ya? nevertheless, i still would like to make it a point that i'm among one of those who DOES NOT agreed with hizbollah action that lead to this crisis! u may have urs, and so does mine. atleast we could agree on that, can we? :rollseyes

on the palestinian issues, i tend to agree with urs....:hiding:
Reply

aamirsaab
07-29-2006, 05:12 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Moshe
The bbc has proven without a shadow of a doubt it's pure incompetence and unreliability when it comes to reporting.

Whenever it pleases to do so the itchy Palestinian trigger finger couldn't resist lobbing almost fifty mortars and rockets into Israel and the BBC doesn't report stuff like that, yet if Israel sends in a tank to the strip to disarm these criminal thugs the BBC report a SHAME campaign.

So the BBC has absolutely no credibility whatsoever as far as im concerned.
It's funny you know, I hear the exact same thing from the opposite side all the time.

OT: Personally, I think until either side has had their demands fulfilled - or is satiated sufficiently with the result given, a ceasefire is made (for all participants). This should prevent the deathtoll from continuing. So instead of having minimal casualities, how bout none at all, eh?
Reply

Fishman
07-29-2006, 05:13 PM
:sl:
Israel has dropped about 10,000 tonnes of bombs on Lebanon. That's about the same as the Americans dropped on Hiroshima. That killed 60,000 people. The Israelis have killed about 800. Hezbollah has fired about 50 tonnes of explosives at Israel. They have killed about 20 civilians. You can see that by any rational comparison Israel is extremely careful not to kill civilians - far more so than Hezbollah for instance. They are not killing at any chance.
:sl:
The number of non-civilians killed in Lebanon is tiny. What has Israel been using those explosives on? People's homes probably.

And this is not a diversion from that article I posted. I urge anyone who can stand hearing about such horrific crimes to read it. I have not recieved a ledgible answer to it yet. and if you want a non-BBC opinion, here's wikipedia. And this article has images to prove it.
:w:
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afriend
07-29-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
The bbc has proven without a shadow of a doubt it's pure incompetence and unreliability when it comes to reporting.

Whenever it pleases to do so the itchy Palestinian trigger finger couldn't resist lobbing almost fifty mortars and rockets into Israel and the BBC doesn't report stuff like that, yet if Israel sends in a tank to the strip to disarm these criminal thugs the BBC report a SHAME campaign.

So the BBC has absolutely no credibility whatsoever as far as im concerned.
Hahahahahahaha!!!

So much BullS**T I have never heard in my life......LOOOOLLL!!!!!!!!!!

ROFL!!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey buddy...ur making a jackass of yourself HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!

Western media supporting Palestine??? ;D

Let me enlarge that for you!!!!

WESTERN MEDIA GOING AGAINST ISRAEL???

ROFLLLL!!!!!!!!!
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aamirsaab
07-29-2006, 05:17 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Moshe
Israel has been defending itself from a terrorist war imposed on it by organizations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah. International law explicitly gives Israel the right to conduct military operations against military targets in these circumstances.As regrettable as it is to lose children in war the blame should be totally directed to the criminal thugs who start these problems HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS,Islamic Jihad and their likes.
Again, the blame game; the justification for anything.

As for terrorist wars, quit whilst you're ahead.
Reply

جوري
07-29-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Then why do you hate Jewish people for? Arabs have jewish people from day one the day Abraham chose isaac before ishmael and threw ishmael and hagar into the desert and unfortunately to our dismay, ishmael survived
I don't hate Jewish people ... to Muslims they are People of the book... I detest Israel however as it has nothing to do with the original tribes and in fact is a terrorist state that accuses its host of just that.... Abraham loved both his sons ... and contrary to your hand written scripts... it was Ishmael who was chosen for sacrifice ... if you don't believe that then why does it say in the bible take your ONLY son ... if it were Isaac then surely he had two at the time for Isaac came after Ishmael.... and from that horrible desert you speak is the first house of God Mecca..,. and "Maqam" Abraham by the Kaaba... for all worshippers to prostrate themselves to God/ the one God ... also the well of water zamzam which allowed many tribes to live there after it was an arid land..... it became arable ... any more conflicts you want resolved?
Reply

Fishman
07-29-2006, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
I dont where you get your figures from pal but i can gurantee you 800 lebo's haven't been killed the official figure is more around the mark of and 350-380 and 200 of those are hezbollah thugs. so if you ask me i think Israel is doing a fine job of finding hezbollah and eliminating their presence.

Lets not forget that hezbollah has launched 90 katyusha rocket missiles into israel so far. This isn't a one sided thing as you all may seem to think. 55 israelis have already been killed in this too. and 10,000 tonnes of bomb you are absolutely lying through your teeth. bombs were targeted to roads, ports, airports because of it's strategic importance.

If you shut the ports, airports, and roads down then hezbollah can't get any help from anywhere.
:sl:
I dunno where your getting your info from either, only thirty-two Millitants died on the Hizbollah side. source.
:w:
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جوري
07-29-2006, 05:26 PM
Yet you get your help from Duluth, Miami and Seattle... ahahahaha... what hypocrites ... same hypocrites that want to impose U.N resolutions on Hezballah yet themselves are in defiance of fifty of them....... it is a waste to even sit here and argue with you ... my God ... go into the bosom of your Zionist apartheid state ...
Reply

adi8putra
07-29-2006, 05:33 PM
Moshe,
just one advise, stop having prejudice view on almost everything.
if u think that the jews is the choosen people by god above all else, u r no better than the nazi's and their aryan myth!
if u think that it's better of israel to exterminating all people who they r suspicious with, then u r no better than the gestapos in the holocaust.
if u r always suspicious about the arabs people as a whole, than u r no better than people who are afraid of their own shadows... for the rest of ur life.

be sensible here, will ya?

get to the roots to the problem. maybe ur arguments about the palestinian statehood is valid, but, it does not gives u the rights to treat them as a pariah, an outcast for the rest of their life. yes, they will always be some "terrorists" who will always launch rockets into israel, but, it does not give u the rights to punish the whole people just bcoz u dont know who ur enemies are? treat others with kindness, just as u expected urself to be treated. its that simple. by resorting to violence, through excessive use of force, u'll always be successful in creating more enemies. the best part is, u never knew who they are. u might have the mightiest armies in the world, but u'll remain paranoia for the rest of ur life.

stop being prejudice...
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scentsofjannah
07-29-2006, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Lara
Since the year 700 B.C , Lebanon was occupied by various nations :egyptians,greeks,persians,arabs,ottomans,the french,the syrians...and none of them ever managed to fully control the small country.The ottoman sultan was never able to put Lebanon under his control until WW1 and the lebanese encouraged the arabs to revolt which they finally did.
The french were forced out of the country in 1943,the syrians too in 2005 after the assasination of PM Rafik Hariri credited for rebuilding the country.The israelis were also forced out of the country in 2000 by the lebanese resistance (Mostly Hezbollah in the 90's and many other christian/muslim groups before 1990).
This is a country that has a reputation of humiliating its ennemies often stronger than the lebanese...but now the majority here have had enough,we are gonna make it through this war like we always have and the so-called "invincible israeli army" has already suffered a lot of losses,it's not just us...they were surprised by the determination of the lebanese people.But the majority want this to be the final war.This country has suffered so much, more than any other country.And here is what the majority here want:
1-A cease fire.
2-A prisoner exchange
3-An israeli retreat from the Chebaa farms (and a paper form Syria declaring that they are lebanese which the syrians haven't done so far)
4-A UN peace-keeping force on the borders.
5-Hezbollah militants joining the army.
6-A redeployment of the army to defend the borders.
7-A map from Israel indicating the places of the mines containing explosives in southern Lebanon that they left behind in 2000.

And we also wanna sue Israel for destroying the infrastructure and killing 600 civilians (though we know they won't pay).

I'd like to know.What are your opinions on these demands?
fantastico!..dont care what the warmongers here say..let them not intimidate you...God protect you and all the other innocents ameen
Reply

afriend
07-29-2006, 05:40 PM
Alhamdulillah he is gone.....No normal Jew/Israeli would be as arrogant/ignorant as him...Just look at Lavikor as an example for Israelis/Jews

Anyways....Let's cut the off topic posts now ok?
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Ayesha Rana
07-29-2006, 05:42 PM
I think these demands are perfectly reasonable though why they would be accepted when those 'warmongers' (lol!) are such terrorists to have attacked Lebanon in the first place is past me. Of course they may still have a trace of human nature left in them.
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Muezzin
07-29-2006, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
Anyways....Let's cut the off topic posts now ok?
Yes, let's.

Back to the topic please.
Reply

scentsofjannah
07-29-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well no. It is not beyond any Lebanese politician to vote for something they have no intention of supporting. Perhaps Hezbollah knows these demands will be rejected and so support them because they are painless?

The problems are: 1. prisoner exchanges. Israel should not reward kidnappers as that just encourages more kidnapping. I doubt that Israel holds any Lebanese prisoners who do not deserve it anyway. Those people deserve to remain in jail. 2. Letting Hezbollah join the Army means that the Army will become Hezbollah as it is mainly Shia anyway. I suppose that the Lebanese could live with that and any coup would be 10 to 15 years away anyway. But deploying it to the border means deploying Hezbollah to the border. Which gets no one anywhere.

The solution to this problem is in the hands of the Lebanese. They will have to decide if they want peace with Israel or more war. If they want peace they have to restrain terrorist groups who operate from within Lebanon.
you're extremely heartless Heigou!! here we have a Lebanese citizen telling us what the majority of her people and her legitimate Government want (one can say theres a clear consensus if you watch the lebanese tv channels or speak to lebanese people in the west and elsewhere) and you come in and have the nerve to totally rubbish her and her peoples demands? btw its no different than what the UN and France and Russia and almost every other nation save Britain and the US called for..

Sister Lara doesnt give a rats behind about your views or suggestions..she and her suffering people have huge support from the international community..All praise to Almighty God.
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scentsofjannah
07-29-2006, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Moshe
Then why do you hate Jewish people for? Arabs have jewish people from day one the day Abraham chose isaac before ishmael and threw ishmael and hagar into the desert and unfortunately to our dismay, ishmael survived

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy gawwwwwwwd!!

i want to cry a river..are you serious???????????

plz tell me you're not..

tell me you have a heart.

:cry:
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Ex_
07-29-2006, 06:37 PM
Moshe has a point, think about it? what does every war raging in the world have in common?

Muslims
Reply

Fishman
07-29-2006, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ex_Muslim
Moshe has a point, think about it? what does every war raging in the world have in common?

Muslims
:sl:
They also have Westerners involved too, usually as the people who started the whole problem during the 1800s. Without colonialjism, there would be no wars in the Muslim world. And the conflicts in Ireland and Korea have zilch to do with Muslims.
:w:
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KAding
07-29-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
They also have Westerners involved too, usually as the people who started the whole problem during the 1800s. Without colonialjism, there would be no wars in the Muslim world. And the conflicts in Ireland and Korea have zilch to do with Muslims.
:w:
While I absolutely agree that not all major wars have something to do with Muslims, I am somewhat puzzeled by this claim that there 'would be no wars in the Muslim world' without colonialism. Surely there was plenty of war in the Muslim world before European colonialism, both between Muslims and between Muslims and non-Muslims? I mean, as an example, didn't the Ottomans fight both the Mameluks and the Safavid Empire. Or think of the wars between the different Turkish tribes. Or between the Mughal Empire and the Indian sultanates.
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HeiGou
07-30-2006, 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
you're extremely heartless Heigou!! here we have a Lebanese citizen telling us what the majority of her people and her legitimate Government want (one can say theres a clear consensus if you watch the lebanese tv channels or speak to lebanese people in the west and elsewhere) and you come in and have the nerve to totally rubbish her and her peoples demands? btw its no different than what the UN and France and Russia and almost every other nation save Britain and the US called for..
How is what I said heartless? No doubt the majority of Lebanese want a lot of things - to win the World Cup and become millionaires for instance. That is not the question. The question is what can the Lebanese do given their circumstances and there is an obvious problem with putting Hezbollah into Lebanese Army uniforms and letting them patrol the Israeli border. What is wrong with pointing that out?

I did not, you should have noticed, totally rubbish her people's demands much less her. There is a lot of good sense in those demand and I feel sorry for her and respect her for saying what she thinks. But there are still problems with those demands.

Sister Lara doesnt give a rats behind about your views or suggestions..she and her suffering people have huge support from the international community..All praise to Almighty God.
No doubt. Not enough support in the international community to make Israel stop I notice.
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HeiGou
07-30-2006, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
They also have Westerners involved too, usually as the people who started the whole problem during the 1800s. Without colonialjism, there would be no wars in the Muslim world. And the conflicts in Ireland and Korea have zilch to do with Muslims.
So you are denying there were any wars in the Islamic world before European colonialism? Boy I have seen some efforts at blaming the West, but this one takes the cake. Colonialism came late to most of the Middle East. It stopped fairly soon after. It was mainly in a very mild form. It was over 50 years ago. Stop blaming us for their problems.

I agree that the conflicts in Ireland and Korea have little to do with Islam or Muslims, but it is very noticeable that most of the world's conflicts take place in countries with large numbers of Muslims. Indeed if the world did not have any Marxists or any Muslim radicals, it would essentially have no terrorism as they are the only two groups out there killing civilians in large numbers today. The exceptions (the LRA in Uganda for instance) are tiny.
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Fishman
07-30-2006, 10:34 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
So you are denying there were any wars in the Islamic world before European colonialism? Boy I have seen some efforts at blaming the West, but this one takes the cake. Colonialism came late to most of the Middle East. It stopped fairly soon after. It was mainly in a very mild form. It was over 50 years ago. Stop blaming us for their problems.

I agree that the conflicts in Ireland and Korea have little to do with Islam or Muslims, but it is very noticeable that most of the world's conflicts take place in countries with large numbers of Muslims. Indeed if the world did not have any Marxists or any Muslim radicals, it would essentially have no terrorism as they are the only two groups out there killing civilians in large numbers today. The exceptions (the LRA in Uganda for instance) are tiny.
:sl:
I'm not denying that there have been no wars in the Islamic world. But if Muslim countries had not been carved up between Britain and France, then there would be considerably less violence.

And a short period of colonialism is enough to break up once-united countries. Once a country is broke into two, two very different governments can get into place. These two opposing governments will then start fighting with each other. And then the millitias start, and terrorist attacks begin to occur to the opposite side. And when the West tries to intervene, it usually angers the local population, and terrorists begin to attack the west too. This incites more attacks by the west, which in turn causes terrorist attacks. It goes on and on until somebody gives up.
:w:
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Silver
07-30-2006, 10:52 AM
Well after the kana attacks PM Seniora said that there would be no ngociations until a cease-fire is established and he has the support of all the lebanese people now,not just the majority.
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HeiGou
07-30-2006, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
I'm not denying that there have been no wars in the Islamic world. But if Muslim countries had not been carved up between Britain and France, then there would be considerably less violence.
Why do you think that? Are you saying there was less violence before European colonialism - because I think you would have a great deal of trouble supporting that view. One thing European colonialism did lead to everywhere was massive growth in Muslim populations. Presumably one reason was the suppression of inter-tribal violence which acted a fairly effective limit on population. Look at Indonesia where there weren't even any tribes.

Originally Posted by Fishman
And a short period of colonialism is enough to break up once-united countries. Once a country is broke into two, two very different governments can get into place. These two opposing governments will then start fighting with each other. And then the millitias start, and terrorist attacks begin to occur to the opposite side. And when the West tries to intervene, it usually angers the local population, and terrorists begin to attack the west too. This incites more attacks by the west, which in turn causes terrorist attacks. It goes on and on until somebody gives up.
It is true that it can happen like this, but it does not mean it has to. India was created by the British and has remained united ever since apart from the demands of the Muslims for independence. In most places Europe did not break countries in two, but united them. Moreover if the locals want to unite there is nothing stopping them - Yemen has. They only do not do so because they do not want to do so. I don't think you can blame the West for that. None of these factors seem to apply outside the Muslim world. It so happens that terrorism seems to be a tactic common in the Muslim world, but not elsewhere - apart from a lot of Marxists. Why do you think that is? It is also old within the region. Nasir incited terror against the British in the Canal Zone for instance.

Others have got over colonialism. I would suggest the Muslim world has too, it just likes to blame me for their problems.
Reply

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