Jesus; the Man or the Myth?

[Les_Nubian]

I've been hearing and seeing lately a lot of drama about weather Jesus actually existed or not. The core argument I suppose would be that there are no historical records of him, and that there are no written journals, (records) or documents from anyone about him, only the Bible. But there is a lot more to the argument than that. These links are just some examples;

http://mwillett.org/atheism/jesusmyth.htm

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/j_myth.htm

Then I found this article from www.thetruthcenter.com :

THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS & THE MYTHICAL CHRIST

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(Prepared by Pastor Ray Hagins, Ph.D.)

Over 90% of people (in the Christianized Western world) believe that “Jesus Christ” was an actual historical figure. For these people, the only point of controversy about “Jesus” is whether or not he was (or is) the Son of God and the Messiah. However, as never before, there is a great deal of controversy about whether or not a person named Jesus Christ ever really existed.

According to publications readily found in Christian bookstores, Jesus Christ DID exist! But, I dare you to go to other books stores!!! You will find volumes of literature that clearly reveals, logically and intelligently, time and again that Jesus Christ is a mythological character along the same lines as the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian or other god-men, who are all presently accepted as myths rather than historical figures. My sincere and exhaustive research has shown me that the Jesus character is based upon much older myths and heroes from all over the world. I have found that this story about “Jesus Christ” was invented in the year 325 A.D. at the Nicean Council and did not exist as real person who was (or is) the “son of God.”

Historically speaking, my research Jewish literature has revealed to me that approximately 100 years B.C.E., there was a person named Jeshua Ben-Pandira, whose who was a “-------” (illegitimate) child. His mother was named Mary. His father, named whose name was Joseph Pandira, lived next door to Mary. One night he came home drunk and encountered Mary and raped her. She conceived and according to so-called Jewish custom would have been put to death, but the man that she was engaged to (Joseph Ben Stada) married her to take away her reproach. Because this child was conceived in such a manner and was therefore seen as a “------- child;” Joseph Ben Stada took his wife, Mary, and her son Jeshua and moved to Egypt where this child received his education.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, literary prevarication was used quite a bit from the first though the 5th and 6th centuries. Eusebius, a so-called “church father” is said to have been “an unbelievable liar who regularly wrote his own fictions about the life and deeds of “the Lord. Jesus.”

Pope Leo X, who was one of the most powerful Popes in the history of the Roman Catholic Church made this curious declaration, “What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!” Yet, many “dissenters” (those who differed in belief and rejected the doctrines of the Established Church in England or Scotland) were viciously refuted or murdered for exposing those religious leaders who were fooling the masses with their fictional teachings.

It is important that we understand that the ONLY literary evidence of the existence of a so-called “Jesus Christ” is in the four gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John) of the New Testament. Any and all other references, ideas, imaginations, movies, etc., are taken from these writings.

Ask yourself why the so-called “Paul,” never discussed an historical background of Jesus, but rather only about a spiritual being who he called “Christ” (who was known to all gnostic sects for hundreds to thousands of years). The few supposed historical references to an actual life of Jesus mentioned in the Pauline Epistles are interpolations and forgeries, as are the Epistles themselves, as they were not written by Paul.

It is also very interesting that the Pauline literature does not refer to Pilate or the Romans, or Caiaphas, or the Sanhedrin, or Herod or Judas, or the holy women, or any person or event in the gospels’ account of the Passion, and never makes any allusion to them.

It is even more interesting that Paul never quotes from Jesus’ purported sermons and speeches, parables and prayers, nor does he mention Jesus’ supernatural birth or any of his alleged wonders and miracles.

THERE IS NO NON-BIBLICAL EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF A JESUS CHRIST!!!

There are no non-biblical references to a historical Jesus by any known historian of the time during and after Jesus’ purported advent. No literate person of his (Jesus’) own time mentioned him in any known writing. The eminent Hellenistic Jewish historian and philosopher Philo (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), who was alive at the purported time of Jesus, makes no mention of him. Nor do any of the some 40 other historians who wrote during the first one to two centuries of the Common Era. Enough of the writings of [these] authors . . . remain to form a library.

In the entire works of the Jewish historian Josephus, which constitute many volumes, there are only two small paragraphs that supposedly refer to Jesus. Although much has been made of these “references,” they have been dismissed by all scholars and even by Christian apologists as forgeries. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof; yet, no proof of any kind for the historicity of Jesus has ever existed.

My research has brought me to the conclusion that THERE WAS NO SINGLE HISTORICAL PERSON UPON WHOM THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION WAS FOUNDED, and that “Jesus Christ” is a compilation of legends, heroes, gods and god-men. Time will not permit us to go into detail about each god or god-man that plagiarists and copyists used to contribute to the formation of the Jewish Jesus character; however, there is plenty of documentation to show that this issue is not a question of “faith” or “belief.”

The fictionalized story of Jesus nearly identically parallels the stories of Horus, Krishna, Buddha, Mithra, Prometheus, and many others ALL of whom predate the Romanized Jesus story by hundreds to thousands of years.

EVERY CULTURE HAD A SAVIOR BUT THE ROMAN EMPIRE!!! HENCE, THE ROMANIZED CHRIST!

The following world saviors and “sons of God,” were crucified or executed and was resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven. AND they predate the so-called “Jesus Christ.”

1. Adad of Assyria
2. Adonis, Apollo, Heracles (“Hercules”) and Zeus of Greece
3. Alcides of Thebes
4. Attis of Phrygia
5. Baal of Phoenicia
6. Bali of Afghanistan
7. Beddru of Japan
8. Buddha of India
9. Crite of Chaldea
10. Deva Tat of Siam
11. Hesus of the Druids
11. Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character
12. Indra of Tibet/India
13. Jao of Nepal
14. Krishna of India
15. Mikado of the Sintoos
16. Mithra of Persia
17. Odin of the Scandinavians
18. Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
19. Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
20. Salivahana of Bermuda
21. Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas
22. Thor of the Gauls
23. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
24. Wittoba of the Bilingonese
25. Xamolxis of Thrace
26. Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
27. Zoar of the Bonzes

THE MAJOR PLAYERS

Horus of Egypt(ca. 10,000 B.C.E.)


The stories of Jesus and Horus are VERY similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos (“I and my Father are one”). The legends of Horus go back to ca. 10,000 B.C.E.


1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
2. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
3. Horus was baptized by “Anup the Baptizer,” who becomes “John the Baptist.”
4. He had 12 disciples.
5. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
6. He walked on water.
7. Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
8. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
9. He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God’s Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word” etc.
10. He was “the Fisher,” and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish (“Ichthys”).
11. Horus’s personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.”
12. Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One,” thousands of years before the Romanized Christ.


In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original “Madonna and Child.


Krishna of India (ca. 5,000 B.C.E.)


Gerald Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors, and Kersey Graves, who includes the various non-canonical gospels in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses.


1. Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”)
2. His father was a carpenter.
3. His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
4. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
5. He was of royal descent.
6. He was baptized in the River Ganges.
7. He worked miracles and wonders.
8. He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
9. Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
10. “He lived poor and he loved the poor.”
11. He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
12. He died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
13. He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
14. Krishna is called the “Shepherd God” and “Lord of lords,” and was considered “the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word.”
15. He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the “Resurrection” and the “way to the Father.”
16. He was considered the “Beginning, the Middle and the End,” (“Alpha and Omega”), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
17. His disciples bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” meaning “pure essence.”
18. Krishna is to return to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth.


Mithra, Sun-god of Persia (ca. 600 B.C.E.)


1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
3. He had 12 companions or disciples.
4. He performed miracles.
5. He was buried in a tomb.
6. After three days he rose again.
7. His resurrection was celebrated every year.
8. Mithra was called “the Good Shepherd.”
9. He was considered “the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.”
10. He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb. His sacred day was Sunday, “the Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
11. Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
12. His religion had a Eucharist or “Lord’s Supper.”


Buddha (ca. 500 B.C.E)


1. Buddha was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the “Queen of Heaven.” (cf. Jer 44:25).
2. He was of royal descent.
3. He crushed a serpent’s head.
4. He performed miracles and wonders, healed the sick, fed 500 men from a “small basket of cakes,” and walked on water.
5. He abolished idolatry, was a “sower of the word,” and preached “the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness.
6. He taught chastity, temperance, tolerance, compassion, love, and the equality of all.
7. He was transfigured on a mount.
8. Sakya Buddha was crucified in a sin-atonement, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.
9. He ascended to Nirvana or “heaven.”
10. Buddha was considered the “Good Shepherd”, the “Carpenter”, the “Infinite and Everlasting.”
11. He was called the “Savior of the World” and the “Light of the World.”


Prometheus of Greece


1. Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.
2. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
3. He was called the Logos or Word.


The “Son” of God is the “Sun” of God


The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a god-man who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astro-theological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel story is an account of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.


For instance, most of the world’s crucified god-men have their traditional birthday on December 25th (“Christmas”). This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earth-centric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the birthday of the “sun of God” on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:


1. The sun “dies” for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.


NOTE: In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and therefore, the sun would be “born of a Virgin.”


2. The sun is the “Light of the World.”
3. The sun “cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him.”
4. The sun rising in the morning is the “Savior of mankind.” The sun wears a corona, “crown of thorns” or halo.
5. The sun “walks on water.”
6. The sun’s “followers,” “helpers” or “disciples” are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass. The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the “Most High”; thus, “he” begins “his Father’s work” at “age” 12.
7. The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30. It exits each sign of the zodiac at 33°; hence Jesus dies at the age of 33 years old.
8. The sun is hung on a cross or “crucified,” which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.


Contrary to popular belief, the ancient Africans were not an ignorant and superstitious lot who actually believed their deities to be literal characters. Indeed, this slanderous propaganda has been part of the conspiracy of psychopathic racism and cultural supremacy to make the ancient Africans appear as if they were truly the “dark and dumb savages” that was in need of the “light of Jesus.”


The reality is that the ancient Africans were no less advanced in their morals and spiritual practices, and were far more advanced, than the Euro-Gentile Christians in their own supposed morality and ideology, which, in its very attempt at historicity, is in actuality a degradation of the ancient mysteries. Indeed, unlike the “superior” Euro-Gentile-Greco-Roman Christians, the true intelligentsia amongst the ancient Africans were well aware that their gods were astronomical and atmospheric in nature.
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I don't know if Jesus truly existed or not, because I wasn't there...but do you believe absolutely without a doubt that this man is not a myth? Or is? I just want your opinions...

What do you think?

[Les_Nubian]

^^For those who are confused, I found this article, and I listed the source to post it. It's not my article or written by me.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Great post,but it remind me of what the Prophet said,that Allah has sent a messenger to all races of men.

And assuredly Prophet Jesus as was sent unto the Jews but like all those fables,he was changed from a prophet to a god by the lying hand of the old church fathers.

[Abdul Fattah]

Historically speaking, my research Jewish literature has revealed to me that approximately 100 years B.C.E., there was a person named Jeshua Ben-Pandira, whose who was a “-------” (illegitimate) child. His mother was named Mary. His father, named whose name was Joseph Pandira, lived next door to Mary. One night he came home drunk and encountered Mary and raped her. She conceived and according to so-called Jewish custom would have been put to death, but the man that she was engaged to (Joseph Ben Stada) married her to take away her reproach. Because this child was conceived in such a manner and was therefore seen as a “------- child;” Joseph Ben Stada took his wife, Mary, and her son Jeshua and moved to Egypt where this child received his education.

Since the jews didn't recognise him as prophet, and therefor didn't believe virgin birth, it's only natural they asumed she was raped, and why not point the finger at the guy who marries her to save her from prosecution. There's nothing odd going on here, this is a normal reaction, it doesn't make the historical figure of Jesus any less certain. In fact it confirms his existance.

THERE IS NO NON-BIBLICAL EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF A JESUS CHRIST!!!

Yes there is, the roman writer Tacitus (writer does not mean he wrote fiction, in those days a lot of writers wrote about events in the world, sort of the ancient journalists) mentions him. Then there's also a jewish writer. It's not much, I admit that. But isn't that normal? I mean he only had a handfull of follewers. Nobody cared enough about them to report about them. Only when they began growing in numbers were they mentioned in history. In the end what you have is people going to a great deal of trouble to refute those few existing source and refute teh existing biblical source only so they could then use that to support the most wildest theorys. It's nuts.

The fictionalized story of Jesus nearly identically parallels the stories of Horus, Krishna, Buddha, Mithra, Prometheus, and many others ALL of whom predate the Romanized Jesus story by hundreds to thousands of years.

Had he really examined it, he would have realised there are no paraless that lead to asume Jesus (pbuh) is a knock of of another myth astagfurallah.

*Lamb of god - dalai lama (deus lama) this religion originated around the year 1400A.D. How can this have been an influence? It’s more likely the other way around wouldn’t you agree? A.c.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_lama
*Thulis ->search turned out blank
*Coite -> search turned out blank
*Thammuz -> Babylonian God, not a son of god no analogy with Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz
*Atys -> not son of a god, son a of a king. Are all princes a reference to Jesus? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atys_father_of_Lydus
*Hesus only link is the similar name, a simple coincidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesus
*Bali is an ancient king who opposed the 5th incarnation of vishnu, no similarity.
*Indra is the chief deity of the Rig-Veda, and the god of weather and war, and Lord of Svargaloka in Hinduism. no parallelism.
*Iao Sabaoth is applied together or seperately as Gnostic archons; the Gnostic Iao is associated with both Abraxas and the seven headed dragon; he is sometimes referred to as the "Father of Lies". There is no simularity
*Mitra has again no simularities , but zoroastrism does carry traces of this deity, and there we see simular aspects like trinity. But there’s no indication Mitra has anything to do with that.
*Sakia -> search turned out blank
*Alceste was a princess in Greek mythology, Alcestis ("might of the home") was known for her love for her husband. Their story was popularised in Euripides's tragedy Alcestis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcestis
*Quexaicote was Mexican God, I didn’t even search this one. The ancient tribes in America didn’t have ships, only small canoes, they were isolated from other continents, and therefore couldn’t have influenced Christianity.
*Prometheus the human who stole the fire from the Gods, again no similarity.
*Wittoba was another incarnation of Vishnu, the avatar named Wittoba or Vithoba ... This incarnation of Vishnu or CRISTNA is called Wittoba or Ballaji
*Quirinus a god in the polytheistic Roman mythology. No similarities.
*Chrisna -> here there actually are some good example of similarities. Probably the reason why they focussed on this one rather then the other examples. However most references are slightly changed and taken out of context to accentuate the similarity, this to hide the fact that it’s a stretch.
*Adonis, Apollo, Heracles (“Hercules”) and Zeus of Greece only simularity was that they were sons of gods, hardly enough simularity, it's only natural that polytheistic religions have sons and fathers that doesn't mean Jesus (pbuh) is likely to be inspired by it. Afterall Jesus (pbuh) was only considered to be son of God many centuries later.
*Thor of the Gauls Thor was the supreme god, not the son, not human no simularitys.
*Odin of the Scandinavians was god of warriors, again no simularities.

I'm getting tire of looking these things up it's to futile, you get the general idea right? It's a complete bogus list.

THE MAJOR PLAYERS

ok getting into details, lets expose the lies finnaly. some of them I know a lot about others I know less about. so it's niot like I opportunistcly left out some arguments because they were actually good arguments, I looked up some, I knew some, but in the end the list is to big for a satureday afternoon.

Horus of Egypt(ca. 10,000 B.C.E.)
The stories of Jesus and Horus are VERY similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ. Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos (“I and my Father are one”). The legends of Horus go back to ca. 10,000 B.C.E.

Horus was not "one" with his father. they were to clearly seperete enteties, the writer here abuses the confusion with the old egyptian believes and the newer ones. As the faith evolved they adapted a lot of myths, and so charesteristics of deitys kind of assimelated one another eventually resulting in a very complex line of heritage.

1. Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

No similarity in birth date
Jesus was not born on 25 dec. The actual birthday is unknown as far as I know. When Catholics concurred northern Europe; in order to convert the Celtics they would have to give up there holiday “Yule” which was a festivity to celebrate the shortest day of the year (latest dawn and earliest dusk). So the Catholics cooked up a birthday celebration of Jesus (p.b.u.h.) to compensate. The similarities between the Celtic belief and the Egyptian was not because one influenced the other, but rather because they both based their religion on the course of the sun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
No similarity between the star Sirius and the star in the bible showing Jesus (pbuh) birth
Sirius was a deity in the Egyptian mythology called sopdeth in the older mythology which later on assimilated with Isis, Horus’ mother. also, whether or not there was actually a star pronouncing Jesus (pbuh) birth, or wheter this was added afterwards is debated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopdet
No similarities between three kings, and three deities visiting after birth
There weren’t 3 deitys but only 2. Isis herself (his mother) was the third one.

2. He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
3. Horus was baptized by “Anup the Baptizer,” who becomes “John the Baptist.”

No similarities between baptism in the Eridanus/Jordan river
Horus wasn’t even baptised since it was not a custom. Eridanus is not even a river. It’s a constellation wich according to Greek mythology symbolises a river. Anubis was not a baptiser but a different Deity. He is also a son of Osiris, but the two deitys never met. Horus replaced Annubis as the myth evolved. Actually the erason Horus was considered son of Osiris was because he was he replaced Annubis in the mythology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anubis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

4. He had 12 disciples.

No this is a lie, look it up, no such thing.

5. He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.

He was a mythological God he was said to perform miracles around the clock, du-uh. It's not hard to find among those stories a single one that is simular to the miracles of prophet jesus (pbuh).

6. He walked on water.

No he didn't.

7. Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

No he wasn't, he had a fight with an antagonistic Deity on the mountain, he won, but lost an eye in teh battle. So he was slightly disfigured, not transfigured.

8. He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.

He was a deity he was immortal, such a thing never happened acording to their mythology.

9. He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God’s Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word” etc.

He didn't have those titles.

11. Horus’s personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.”

So he was the son of his father, well I'm the son of my father to, am I a knock of of horus to then?

12. Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One,” thousands of years before the Romanized Christ.

No he wasn't called that he was called horus, amon ra , ra, but never krst. where do these people get this stuff :)

In fact, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original “Madonna and Child.

I didn't know they had cameras back then. There's a drawing of a mother holding a child. That's the most natural thing in the world, a mother carriying her child.

Then there's the freemasons. As Christianity came to Egypt, a small sect was created that had both Christian and ancient Egyptian concepts combined. This sect was first allowed in Christianity but in the dark ages when Christianity started with it’s crusade the sect was labelled heretic and was persecuted. The sect had to flee underground, it is the beginning of the freemasons. But from this underground position they didn't just sit and tell each other stories. They seized power by placing members in certain positions throughout history. These many influential people throughout history that were a member of this sect placed references to this sect in honour of it. The dollar bill, the obelisk in Washington, the pyramid in front of the Louvre in France, the obelisk a couple meters away from it. All referring to their ancient Egyptian heritage. Now I think that since the bible has been altered so much, and since the freemasons mixed Catholicism with the ancient Egyptian culture that it is more likely for the fake similarities to have been added afterwards into the factual stories about prophet Jesus (pbuh); rather then one story being a knock off of the other altogether.

More detail about simularity with horus:
http://www.islamicboard.com/370168-post14.html

Krishna of India

I don't know anything about the history of khrisna. And quite franklly I don't feel like looking it up. I suspect that the simularities are again a big stretch.
As for most of the arguments mentioned, they don't seem that strong. Maybe someone with a more profound knowledge on khrisna could answer here.

Mithra, Sun-god of Persia (ca. 600 B.C.E.)

moving on..

1. Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.

But Christ wasn't, as i explained earlyer the 25 as birthday was introducced a lot later, this goes to proof how well built these arguments are.

2. He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

Well du-uh, he was worshiped.

3. He had 12 companions or disciples.

Really? what were their names? Were it companions or where it disciples or were they both?

4. He performed miracles.

Again, du-uh, he was their god.

5. He was buried in a tomb.

Who would have thought, they had.... graves, how outragous.
As for the rest of the argument; I'm to tired of looking up lies.

Buddha (ca. 500 B.C.E)

ok next stop tibet....
most of these arguments don't seem to show parelelism with christ how odd :)
And even then some of them are false. I'm not gonna run by them one by one again, look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Prometheus of Greece

I call this: adding another name to the list in desperation.

1. Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.

No according to mythology Prometheus was a normal man like you and me, who supposebly went up to the heavens and stole "fire" from the Gods to bring it down to mankind.

2. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.

No, he was punished for this, but not by crucifiction. If I remember correctly he was chained to a rock, and a gaint bird came to pick out his liver every day, and at night the Gods had him grow a new liver.

3. He was called the Logos or Word.

No he was caleld prometheus the bringer of Fire, not the Word. He didn't have anything really interesting to say why would they call him word.


The “Son” of God is the “Sun” of God

The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a god-man who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astro-theological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel story is an account of a mythological formula revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, most of the world’s crucified god-men have their traditional birthday on December 25th (“Christmas”). This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earth-centric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the birthday of the “sun of God” on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:

I already explained 25dec right :)

NOTE: In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and therefore, the sun would be “born of a Virgin.”

Woaw what a contradiction, first they claim that the winter solitice was considered the beginning, and now suddenly they began in summer a month after mid-summernight. And what were those areas where this was believed? as far as i know the constelation is only caleld Virgo by egyptian civilisation.

2. The sun is the “Light of the World.”

So????

3. The sun “cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him.”

and this is supposed to resemble biblical scripture? just because it's writen in same style :p

4. The sun rising in the morning is the “Savior of mankind.” The sun wears a corona, “crown of thorns” or halo.

LOL corona and crown of thorns are two very seperate things.

5. The sun “walks on water.”

No it doesn't you see it's reflection, it doesn't walk on it. DO they really think people were stupid back then.

6. The sun’s “followers,” “helpers” or “disciples” are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass. The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the “Most High”; thus, “he” begins “his Father’s work” at “age” 12.

The sun doesn't follow the constelations, the constellations are visebla at night, the sun at day. and the path of the sun is difrent frolm the path of the zodiac. This is absurd.

7. The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30. It exits each sign of the zodiac at 33°; hence Jesus dies at the age of 33 years old.

This is belony. The sun will eneter it on a difrent angle depending on your position on earth. And again the constelations are not visible when the sun is out.

8. The sun is hung on a cross or “crucified,” which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

Equinox isn't a cross. and the date of it depends on your position on the earth (how much to the norh or south you are at). It isn't necesairly at easter. and tehre's no link with resurection, as teh resurection would be the day after mid-winternight.

More about this at :http://www.islamicboard.com/359351-post22.html

I don't know if Jesus truly existed or not, because I wasn't there...but do you believe absolutely without a doubt that this man is not a myth? Or is? I just want your opinions...

What do you think?

You see sister this is all a big hype built on lies ,and due to the failure of christianity people were waiting for something like this to come along in order to "excuse" them out of their religion. You shouldn't look to far into it.

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[MinAhlilHadeeth]

As Muslims we know that he (AS) is spoken of in the Qurán and Sunnah. That is enough proof for us.

:wasalamex

[Les_Nubian]

WOW steve, thank you for that very detailed response! You're a great debator, I must say! :P

I really don't have an opinion, as I don't know enough about this stuff, and all of the details, but well done :D .

[Joe98]

......that Allah has sent a messenger to all races of men.

No, he only seent one to one small obscure place.

If I were God I would have sent messengers to a number of different places. Then when communication improved people would have marvelled that the message was EXACTLY the same in all places!

But He did not. So maybe there is no God.

[Abdul Fattah]

There were thousands of messengers. There wasn't a nation that has not recieved messages. As for your demand, it's unfair. For god to make religion obvious (to make it a no-brainer) would go in against the whole idea of testing mankind.

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace Les_Nubian;

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died to forgive us our sins and rose again on the third day.

Is there proof and I would have to say no, not in the sense that Joe would like. But somehow the message of Jesus is believable to some, and it inspires us and gives us hope.

In the spirit of searching in hope

Eric

[Joe98]

There were thousands of messengers.

Please name those that came afer the Prophet (pbuh)

[Phil12123]

As Muslims we know that he (AS) is spoken of in the Qurán and Sunnah. That is enough proof for us.

I agree. This thread was started with a long, long article by written by some "Pastor" with a PhD degree spouting terrible things that neither Christian nor Muslim would agree with, as far as Jesus not existing, etc. WHY would anyone start such a thread? And why would the moderators permit it. It is VERY "demeaning and offensive" to me as a Christian and does not really promote Islam, just attacks Christianity. I had my avatar removed because it originally said "Jesus is Lord!" and some Muslim said it was "demeaning and offensive". And yet a Muslim can post that long article and it is just fine. Again, it does NOT promote Islam. And it certainly does not foster peace and understanding between Muslims and Christians. So what gives?

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I agree. This thread was started with a long, long article by written by some "Pastor" with a PhD degree spouting terrible things that neither Christian nor Muslim would agree with, as far as Jesus not existing, etc. WHY would anyone start such a thread? And why would the moderators permit it. It is VERY "demeaning and offensive" to me as a Christian and does not really promote Islam, just attacks Christianity. I had my avatar removed because it originally said "Jesus is Lord!" and some Muslim said it was "demeaning and offensive". And yet a Muslim can post that long article and it is just fine. Again, it does NOT promote Islam. And it certainly does not foster peace and understanding between Muslims and Christians. So what gives?

If you do not believe in Jesus (AS) then you are not Muslim. To believe in all the prophets is one of the 6 pillars of beleif. So this has nothing to do with promoting Islam. We're on the same side here.:)

-Peace

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Please name those that came afer the Prophet (pbuh)

Do you mean Prophet Muhammad (SAW)? If so, then none. Because he (SAW) was the seal of the prophets, the last of the prophets and messengers.

[Abdul Fattah]

Please name those that came afer the Prophet (pbuh)

As Umm_Shaheed already explained, muhammed (pbuh) was the last. We do not know the names of al the prophets thousands of prophets we know their number from a hadeeth, but we only know the names of those who are mentioned in the Qur'an:

Adam
Idris (Enoch)
Nuh (Noah)
Hud (Eber)
Saleh (Shelah)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Lut (Lot)
Ismail (Ishmael)
Ishaq (Isaac)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Ayub (Job)
Shoaib (Jethro)
Musa (Moses)
Harun (Aaron)
Dhul-Kifl (possibly Ezekiel)
Dawood (David)
Sulayman (Solomon)
Ilyas (Elijah)
Al-Yasa (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Zakariya (Zacharias)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad
Peace and blessings be upon all of them

Hope I didn't miss one out :)

[Les_Nubian]

I agree. This thread was started with a long, long article by written by some "Pastor" with a PhD degree spouting terrible things that neither Christian nor Muslim would agree with, as far as Jesus not existing, etc. WHY would anyone start such a thread? And why would the moderators permit it. It is VERY "demeaning and offensive" to me as a Christian and does not really promote Islam, just attacks Christianity. I had my avatar removed because it originally said "Jesus is Lord!" and some Muslim said it was "demeaning and offensive". And yet a Muslim can post that long article and it is just fine. Again, it does NOT promote Islam. And it certainly does not foster peace and understanding between Muslims and Christians. So what gives?

The posting of this article is to promote THINKING. Not just blindly following something that there is no (as far as some are concerned) real proof for. Honestly, we all have that inner skeptic--about anything--and you can't deny it.

There is nothing wrong with a little bit of discussion/debate about an issue such as this. Again, I'm not 100% sure if Jesus did or did not exist, and I'm not going to sit here and lie to you, and act as if I am.

If you are so offended, why can't you just not participate in this discussion? I'm sure that there are many threads on this forum (as with any discussion in the world) to which some are offended. Are we going to delete all of them now? Just because they don't agree with YOUR personal opinion?

Is that not the very point of this forum? The comparative religion section? I meen sheesh, why get so sensitive on this subject? I didn't imply that Jesus doesn't exist...I just encouraged some healthy curiosity and debate on the matter.

Is that so wrong?

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace Les_Nubian;

The posting of this article is to promote THINKING. Not just blindly following something that there is no (as far as some are concerned) real proof for.

Some things we just have to accept on trust without total proof.

People believe in a God, but there is no real proof.
People believe in life after death but there is no real proof.

In the spirit of striving for a greater faith

Eric

[Les_Nubian]

Greetings in peace Les_Nubian;


Some things we just have to accept on trust without total proof.

People believe in a God, but there is no real proof.
People believe in life after death but there is no real proof.

In the spirit of striving for a greater faith

Eric

Sure people believe in God without physical "proof", because God is not a physical being. But this is a MAN we're talking about here. A supposed living, breathing, walking the earth, MAN. I'm just saying, that great historical figures like this usually have some sort of records, like at least people writing about the person, and their life story, etcetera...but I'm guessing the article argues that the bible only states what Jesus supposedly did and said in past-tense, and that there is no real "proof" or "evidence" of him existing.

Again, I'm realy not on either side, I just wanted to see your opinions on the matter. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone...I didn't think anyone here would be so sensitive to the matter, but I guess that's why God just made us all so different. The world would be boring otherwise. :)

[Abdul Fattah]

Eric and phill

Some things we don't know, and thus have to take on faith, regardless of what religion we have. But this is not one of those things. This is a so-called research in history, but if you read my reply you'd see that it's all a big hype based on lies and twisting of words. Had the topicnever been started, but the person try to close her mind to it, it would have sticked around in the background, and from the second there's rough times, and faith becomes hard, shaytan would be there helping you to remember. Now by posting it, we've been able to discuss it, and I've been able to answer some of the arguments. Perhaps even convinced her this is all lies. SO you see it was a very good thing that she posted it. When you have a question, you ask it. there's no shame in asking questions. In fact it's a virtue and sign of strong faith to look for answers in order to strenghthen the faith.

[Eric H]

Greetings Les_Nubian and Steve;

I am not offended by anything that has been said, beliefs will always be challenged in many different ways, I am sure you have had your own faith challenged many times.

The Prophet pbuh, commanded armies and influenced history so his names should also be in the history books. Jesus had a much lower background in life, he was a carpenter and he was crucified like a criminal, he rose again from the dead and a number of people witnessed this. Their collective stories have been gathered together and form part of the Bible.

There is a saying that the victors write the history books. The Jews crucified Christ so they would probably want to suppress anything to do with him. He was only a carpenter after all and his teachings challenged the ways of the Pharisees who preached the Jewish Faith.
The Romans had condemned him and handed him over to the Jews for crucifixion, why should they want to acknowledge his existence?

Yet we say there is no proof in history books, but I wonder if you have ever considered one very minor point.

The Roman Empire controlled much of the known world at the time of Christ, and it also controlled the Roman Calendar. Yet a few centuries later the Romans scrapped their hold on the calendar, and re wrote it set on the life of Christ. We are now in the year 2006 after Christ.

In the spirit of searching together in faith

Eric

[Joe98]

There wasn't a nation that has not recieved messages.

Please name those messengers that were sent to:

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

and we can go from there.

[Les_Nubian]

Eric and phill

Some things we don't know, and thus have to take on faith, regardless of what religion we have. But this is not one of those things. This is a so-called research in history, but if you read my reply you'd see that it's all a big hype based on lies and twisting of words. Had the topicnever been started, but the person try to close her mind to it, it would have sticked around in the background, and from the second there's rough times, and faith becomes hard, shaytan would be there helping you to remember. Now by posting it, we've been able to discuss it, and I've been able to answer some of the arguments. Perhaps even convinced her this is all lies. SO you see it was a very good thing that she posted it. When you have a question, you ask it. there's no shame in asking questions. In fact it's a virtue and sign of strong faith to look for answers in order to strenghthen the faith.

Exactly Steve, you are very right.

That's why these type of discussions when in doubt are very important. You can't just let it sit in the back of your mind, and have doubts about it all the time...you have to get it out there, and get other people's points of view.

Thanks again, brother (Steve). :sister:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Please name those messengers that were sent to:

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

and we can go from there.

Greetings,
There were at least 124 000 Prophets of whom 315 were Messengers, as related in the Musnad of Imâm Ahmad. The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet), it does not list all 124 000 names, only the 25 listed earlier in this thread.

Regards

[Joe98]

The Qur'an tells us that every nation recieved a warner (i.e. a Prophet),

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

[Woodrow]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Let us take a look at the places you just mentioned.

Tasmania
Argentina
Japan
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

Four of them have only been inhabited, in recent times, in terms of the existence of civilization. They were probably founded by wayfarars from established civilizations.

Tasmania
Argentina
Papua New Guinea
The South island of New Zealand

We state that prophets have been sent to all people and all nations. However, that dosen't necessary mean the people are still living in the same locality their ancestors were living at the time a prophet was sent to them. All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

I set Japan aside , as Japan has probably been inhabited much longer and may even date back prior to Egypt. It seems possible that a prophet was sent to them. we do know that the teachings of Shintoism and Buddhism do carry at least a part of what is revealed through the prophets, so it does seem that at one time a prophet did speak to the Japanese.



Now getting back to a question that several members here raised. That is about the value of this thread. True the title does go against both Muslim and Christian beliefs. Yet, I can not think of any title that would be more accurate. Reading through the replies, I see that the topic has brought forth some very legitimate replies. The subject may be controversial, but the replies show a good deal of uniformity and agreement that Jesus(as) did historicaly exist.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Sure people believe in God without physical "proof", because God is not a physical being. But this is a MAN we're talking about here. A supposed living, breathing, walking the earth, MAN. I'm just saying, that great historical figures like this usually have some sort of records, like at least people writing about the person, and their life story, etcetera...but I'm guessing the article argues that the bible only states what Jesus supposedly did and said in past-tense, and that there is no real "proof" or "evidence" of him existing.

Again, I'm realy not on either side, I just wanted to see your opinions on the matter. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone...I didn't think anyone here would be so sensitive to the matter, but I guess that's why God just made us all so different. The world would be boring otherwise. :)

Well sis I already told you that belief in the prophets is one of the 6 pillars of faith. You have to believe in all the prophets as a Muslim. Part of being a believer is having yaqeen, certainty in Islam.:)

:wasalamex

[Joe98]

All evidence indicates that the indigneous people of those 4 countries came from prior locations.

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

[Abdul Fattah]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

Do you mean because those places were unreachable? Well what if a prophet was born in such a region then :)

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

Does it matter?

[Joe98]

Does it matter?

Yes. According to a post above the Koran said that every land received a prophet.

1. Thats not possible

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

[Abdul Fattah]

1. Thats not possible

Why is that impossible?

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

Difrent reasons:
1. Not all nations have writen history, so not all stories were writen down.
2. Not all prophets were recognised, most didn't have large numbers of folowers.
3. Some might have survived history, but aren't recognised as islamic prophets today. there are some historical people of whom it has been suggested that they were in fact prophets, but it's very hard to establish that. And since Islam is already considered to be complete as guidance, there's no good reason to accept them as prophet, we leave the possibility open, but we don't change our ways based on it.
4. All nations recieved a message through a warner, but not all warners were prophets. Right now, we are explaining some parts of our faith to you, so we could be considered warners conveying you the message, but that doesn't make us prophets, far from it :)

[Woodrow]

Yes, 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 years ago.

Tell us again when the messages were sent?

The time is irrelevent. One billion years is insignificant in terms of eternity.

Good point. A refutation I often get from people when I talk about the Qur'an is that the ideas were stolen from the ancient books of the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc.

My counter arguement is that is because they all had contact with a prophet at some point in their history. Even when speaking of the Native American religions and the worship of Manitou or the religions of the aborigianal Australians. You will find stories similar to some of the writtings in the Qur'an. Which makes since as they had they same source, even if much of the words were lost.

In every ancient religion I have ever studies there is a strong resmbalance in at least some of their stories, that indicate some contact with somebody who had contact with a prophet in the past.

[Joe98]

Even when speaking of the Native American religions....or the religions of the aborigianal Australians.

You will find stories similar to some of the writtings in the Qur'an.

There are no such stories. But I am glad you agree with my original point. Which was the message given to the prophet muhammad (pbuh) was not given to any other person.

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places. And many places it has not yeat reached.

Maybe there is no god?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

That can't be true because no prophet got to any of the places I listed.

How do you know? They have their religious traditions which may be the remnants of the message of a Prophet centuries earlier.

[Woodrow]

There are no such stories. But I am glad you agree with my original point. Which was the message given to the prophet muhammad (pbuh) was not given to any other person.

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places. And many places it has not yeat reached.

Maybe there is no god?

Therefore God is flawed because it has taken 1,400 ywears for the emssage to reach remote places.

The message was revealed countless times before Muhammad(saw). It was rejected and misunderstood by us stubborn humans, no matter how many times it was sent. Muhammad(saw) is the fianal attempt by Allah(swt) to get the message through our thick heads.

I believe, you will agree that many people are not accepting it.

[Abdul-Raouf]

Man

[Joe98]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.

…is the final attempt by Allah(swt) to get the message through our thick heads.

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

This is the god you worship?????

[Woodrow]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.



So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

This is the god you worship?????

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!

And in 17716 a small group of people set down the rules for an ideal democracy. We should all marvel at the wisdom of those words and see that they are applicable to all men. But, we don't. In less then 300 years we have altered and changed even what we wanted for our own country. So, your statement seems very true. We humans have the knack to alter things until we render them meaningless.

But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.

I guess if you consider the entire known world to be a hand full of people you are correct. Keep in mind, even with yourself as an acknowledged non-believer, you are aware the Qur'an exists and you know you have the ability to read it any time you choose.

And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.

What could he possible owe us, that we would be entitled to even one attempt? Isn't it about time that we finaly got the message that this is it. Take it or leave it? Not bad luck for humanity, just bad choices. If you catch a man robbing you, how many times will you try to tell him stealing is wrong, before you stop telling him and call the police?

This is the god you worship?????[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I am pleased with the knowledge.

[Mohsin]

2. If each group of people around the world received a prophet how come there are no stories from anywhere on the earth except the Middle East?

There are the hindu scriptures, Zorastian scriptures, and the Buddhist scriptures. All of these books contain evidence that these books were one time several thousands of years ago original wordsa of God, and Budda Zorastian etc were prophets. They even prophecise bthe coming of prophet Muhammed in these scriptures. So it is more than likely God sent prophets to these places thousands of years ago, just tehres no human proof for it

[Abdul Fattah]

My original comment was that (according to you) god gave a message to the prophet 1,400 years ago.

To which I say he didn’t give the same message to anybody else at that time. You say he gave messages to various people over the last few thousands of years thereby agreeing with my comment.

The problem is that 1,400 years ago communication as poor. Everywhere was remote from everywhere else. Even London was remote at that time.

Yes it was. So? that still doesn't make messagers impossible does it.

So, 1,400 years god should have given his message to a hand full of people around the world. And then today we could marvel that the messages are all the same! And believe!
But he did not. We are all thick yet he gave it to one person only.
And as it’s his final attempt, bad luck for humanity.
This is the god you worship?????

I already answered that one :)
The messages was conveyed in such a way that it isn't obvious. In the end life is a test and the point is for you to believe in this message. If it were passed on in a way that it was obvious to the whole of mankind then that would defeat the purpose of this test-life all toghether.

[lolwatever]

yeh mashalah i agree... and it's globalisation in its innocent and pure sense... not the sort we see today where 3rd world countries are used as rubbish bins of the developed countries.

[iraqi]

there is enough evidence for the existance of jesus

[Woodrow]

there is enough evidence for the existance of jesus

Agreed, historicaly and in the scriptures of BOTH Muslims and Christians.

[lolwatever]

^^ even the jews agree he was around, otherwise they wouldn't be swearing at him and attacking his mum...

[Joe98]

Does anyone else think it's cool that globalisation happened when the last message was for all of man?

Ahem. Globalisation took another 1,400 years.

If it were up to religion, there would be no globalisation but the good news is common sense prevailed!

[lolwatever]

Ahem. Globalisation took another 1,400 years.

If it were up to religion, there would be no globalisation but the good news is common sense prevailed!

Ahem, yes but a globalastion of another sort.. one where the 3rd world countries are enslaved to the richer countries, free trade as long as its fair to the rich countries, but super tariffs on 3rd world countries..

By the time the Islamic empire expanded from east to west, i don't recall any tariffs being imposed between Muslim countries, it was one big economy... i don'ts ee one big economy today... :?

[evangel]

I agree. This thread was started with a long, long article by written by some "Pastor" with a PhD degree spouting terrible things that neither Christian nor Muslim would agree with, as far as Jesus not existing, etc. WHY would anyone start such a thread? And why would the moderators permit it. It is VERY "demeaning and offensive" to me as a Christian and does not really promote Islam, just attacks Christianity. I had my avatar removed because it originally said "Jesus is Lord!" and some Muslim said it was "demeaning and offensive". And yet a Muslim can post that long article and it is just fine. Again, it does NOT promote Islam. And it certainly does not foster peace and understanding between Muslims and Christians. So what gives?

Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

We are speaking of Jesus aren't we? We should look forward to anything that brings our Saviour to the forefront.