Help in refutation

[sartajc]

I have gone through many anti Islamic websites, but the following question im having trouble answering.

1. The alleged textual variations in the Qur'an. one site showed that some Qur'ans are actually textually varied. i thought that Qur'an was recital so i didn't care, but then i noticed that they were totally different letters making a totally different recital. how do i refute this?

2. The idea that Muhammad (SWT) copied the Qur'an from people like Galen. For example, one allegation showed how the exact greek of what Galen wrote almost perfectly looked like what the Qur'an said about embryo development. How do i refute this?

I'll PM the sources of these allegation to anyone. but if the moderator wants i can post the articles or links to the articles here.

[REPSTER]

:sl:

Nice 1 bro just post the articles:thumbs_up
:w:

[Skillganon]

I have gone through many anti Islamic websites, but the following question im having trouble answering.

1. The alleged textual variations in the Qur'an. one site showed that some Qur'ans are actually textually varied. i thought that Qur'an was recital so i didn't care, but then i noticed that they were totally different letters making a totally different recital. how do i refute this?

For this you might wan't to read this.

A. The Holy Qur'an; Its Historical Authenticity
QUOTE]

[Halima]

I'll PM the sources of these allegation to anyone. but if the moderator wants i can post the articles or links to the articles here.

Personally, you should get in contact with Brother Ansar- as one of our top refuters.

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[Skillganon]

2. The idea that Muhammad (SWT) copied the Qur'an from people like Galen. For example, one allegation showed how the exact greek of what Galen wrote almost perfectly looked like what the Qur'an said about embryo development. How do i refute this?

You Might wan't to read this

Embryology: The Bible Plagiarises Ancient Greek Literature

> Embryology In the Qur'an <

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

1. The alleged textual variations in the Qur'an. one site showed that some Qur'ans are actually textually varied. i thought that Qur'an was recital so i didn't care, but then i noticed that they were totally different letters making a totally different recital. how do i refute this?

The best book on this subject is the following by Dr. M. M. Al-Azami
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
It stands as a decisive refutation of all the erroneous propaganda against the Qur'an's preservation.

As for 'variants', the different Qira'&#226;t (recitations) are not variants, they come authorized from the Prophet pbuh himself and contain the same verses. The following are some audio clips of Surah Mulk in various Qira'&#226;t:

Ahmad Al-Me’serawe - Recitation of Surah Al-Mulk in various Qira'&#226;t:
Qumbul 'an Ibn Katheer Al-Makkee
Ad-Doori 'an Abu Amr Al-Basree
Khalaf 'an Hamzah Al-Kufi
Ibn Dhawkan 'an Ibn Aamir Ash-Shami
Abi Harith 'an Al-Kisaa'ee
Sulayman 'an Abu Ja'far Al-Madanee
Isa 'an Abu Ja'far Al-Madanee
Ishaaq 'an Khalaf

Listen to them for yourself. The rare vowel elongation or pronounciation shift will go unnoticed to anyone but the experienced reciter who has memorized the surah. The recitations are almost identical.

2. The idea that Muhammad (SWT) copied the Qur'an from people like Galen. For example, one allegation showed how the exact greek of what Galen wrote almost perfectly looked like what the Qur'an said about embryo development. How do i refute this?

Refuted in great detail here:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article76.html

:w:

[sartajc]

Salam Ansari and thank you for your help.

[lolwatever]

jazaks ansar cool stuff bro
salams

[Malaikah]

As for 'variants', the different Qira'ât (recitations) are not variants, they come authorized from the Prophet pbuh himself and contain the same verses.

:sl:

huh? what are they? :?

[lolwatever]

^^ different styles of recitation... umm go to islamway.com u can listen to different styles i think.. there's warsh, hafs and others..

an example is when Umar heard a companion reading a verse very dfiferently to what he heard, and Umar told the companion off and the companion said that he heard the prophet read it that way, and the prophet affirmed and said 'The Quran has come in seven recital forms'

the recitations hav their variants in wording too for example, i think its warsh where you read 'maaaliki yawmideen' as 'maliki yawmideen' (maaaliki = owner), (maliki = king).

salams

[`Abd al-Azeez]

:sl:

The first question, I believe is referring to the 7 ahruf or styles in which the Quran was revealed, these two ahadith answer the first allegation:

‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏يحيى بن يحيى ‏ ‏قال قرأت على ‏ ‏مالك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عروة بن الزبير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن بن عبد القاري ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏يقولا ‏
‏سمعت ‏ ‏هشام بن حكيم بن حزام ‏ ‏يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏على غير ما أقرؤها وكان رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أقرأنيها فكدت أن ‏ ‏أعجل عليه ‏ ‏ثم أمهلته حتى انصرف ثم ‏ ‏لببته ‏ ‏بردائه فجئت به رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقلت يا رسول الله إني سمعت هذا يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏على غير ما أقرأتنيها فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أرسله اقرأ فقرأ القراءة التي سمعته يقرأ فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏هكذا أنزلت ثم قال لي اقرأ فقرأت فقال ‏ ‏هكذا أنزلت إن هذا القرآن أنزل على سبعة ‏ ‏أحرف ‏ ‏فاقرءوا ما تيسر منه ‏
‏و حدثني ‏ ‏حرملة بن يحيى ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن وهب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏عروة بن الزبير ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏المسور بن مخرمة ‏ ‏وعبد الرحمن بن عبد القاري ‏ ‏أخبراه أنهما سمعا ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏يقولا ‏ ‏سمعت ‏ ‏هشام بن حكيم ‏ ‏يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏في حياة رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وساق الحديث بمثله وزاد فكدت ‏ ‏أساوره ‏ ‏في الصلاة فتصبرت حتى سلم ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ‏وعبد بن حميد ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏كرواية ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏بإسناده ‏

'Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting surah Al-Furqan in a style different from that in which I used to recite it, and in which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had taught me to recite it. I was about to dispute with him (on this style) but I delayed till he had finished that (the recitation). Then I caught hold of his cloak and brought him to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I heard this man reciting surah Al-Furqan in a style different from the one in which you taught me to recite. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) told (me) to leave him alone and asked him to recite. He then recited in the style in which I heard him recite it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said: Thus was it sent down. He then told me to recite and I recited it, and he said: Thus was it sent down. The Qur'an was sent down in seven dialects. So recite what seems easy therefrom.

~ http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=436]

And:

‏ ‏و حدثني ‏ ‏حرملة بن يحيى ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن وهب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏حدثه ‏
‏أن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏أقرأني ‏ ‏جبريل ‏ ‏عليه السلام ‏ ‏على حرف فراجعته فلم أزل أستزيده فيزيدني حتى انتهى إلى سبعة أحرف ‏
‏قال ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏بلغني أن تلك السبعة الأحرف إنما هي في الأمر الذي يكون واحدا لا يختلف في حلال ولا حرام ‏ ‏و حدثناه ‏ ‏عبد بن حميد ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏بهذا الإسناد ‏

Ibn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel taught me to recite in one style. I replied to him and kept asking him to give more (styles), till he reached seven modes (of recitation).

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...ang=eng&ID=437

[sartajc]

:sl:

The first question, I believe is referring to the 7 ahruf or styles in which the Quran was revealed, these two ahadith answer the first allegation:

‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏يحيى بن يحيى ‏ ‏قال قرأت على ‏ ‏مالك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عروة بن الزبير ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عبد الرحمن بن عبد القاري ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏يقولا ‏
‏سمعت ‏ ‏هشام بن حكيم بن حزام ‏ ‏يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏على غير ما أقرؤها وكان رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أقرأنيها فكدت أن ‏ ‏أعجل عليه ‏ ‏ثم أمهلته حتى انصرف ثم ‏ ‏لببته ‏ ‏بردائه فجئت به رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فقلت يا رسول الله إني سمعت هذا يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏على غير ما أقرأتنيها فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏أرسله اقرأ فقرأ القراءة التي سمعته يقرأ فقال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏هكذا أنزلت ثم قال لي اقرأ فقرأت فقال ‏ ‏هكذا أنزلت إن هذا القرآن أنزل على سبعة ‏ ‏أحرف ‏ ‏فاقرءوا ما تيسر منه ‏
‏و حدثني ‏ ‏حرملة بن يحيى ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن وهب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏عروة بن الزبير ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏المسور بن مخرمة ‏ ‏وعبد الرحمن بن عبد القاري ‏ ‏أخبراه أنهما سمعا ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏يقولا ‏ ‏سمعت ‏ ‏هشام بن حكيم ‏ ‏يقرأ سورة ‏ ‏الفرقان ‏ ‏في حياة رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏وساق الحديث بمثله وزاد فكدت ‏ ‏أساوره ‏ ‏في الصلاة فتصبرت حتى سلم ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إسحق بن إبراهيم ‏ ‏وعبد بن حميد ‏ ‏قالا أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏كرواية ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏بإسناده ‏

'Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting surah Al-Furqan in a style different from that in which I used to recite it, and in which Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had taught me to recite it. I was about to dispute with him (on this style) but I delayed till he had finished that (the recitation). Then I caught hold of his cloak and brought him to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I heard this man reciting surah Al-Furqan in a style different from the one in which you taught me to recite. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) told (me) to leave him alone and asked him to recite. He then recited in the style in which I heard him recite it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said: Thus was it sent down. He then told me to recite and I recited it, and he said: Thus was it sent down. The Qur'an was sent down in seven dialects. So recite what seems easy therefrom.

~ http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=436]

And:

‏ ‏و حدثني ‏ ‏حرملة بن يحيى ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏ابن وهب ‏ ‏أخبرني ‏ ‏يونس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏عبيد الله بن عبد الله بن عتبة ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏حدثه ‏
‏أن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏أقرأني ‏ ‏جبريل ‏ ‏عليه السلام ‏ ‏على حرف فراجعته فلم أزل أستزيده فيزيدني حتى انتهى إلى سبعة أحرف ‏
‏قال ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏بلغني أن تلك السبعة الأحرف إنما هي في الأمر الذي يكون واحدا لا يختلف في حلال ولا حرام ‏ ‏و حدثناه ‏ ‏عبد بن حميد ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏عبد الرزاق ‏ ‏أخبرنا ‏ ‏معمر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏بهذا الإسناد ‏

Ibn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Gabriel taught me to recite in one style. I replied to him and kept asking him to give more (styles), till he reached seven modes (of recitation).

im kinda confused. then how come people say that the Qur'an is unchanged?

[`Abd al-Azeez]

im kinda confused. then how come people say that the Qur'an is unchanged?

It is unchanged, it was revealed in 7 different dialects to prophet Muhammad (saw). Its basically the difference between modern English and Old English.

[sartajc]

It is unchanged, it was revealed in 7 different dialects to prophet Muhammad (saw). Its basically the difference between modern English and Old English.

But if isn't there a difference between Old English and New English? or do you mean that it is like "my nameth is bob" and "my name is bob" where the word is the same exact thing but said differently?

[Skillganon]

im kinda confused. then how come people say that the Qur'an is unchanged?

The words are the same. It is the rythem, beat, flair and slight pronounciation of certain words, that may differ when reciting the Quran.

i.e. Look at what brother AnsarAli posted

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said: Thus was it sent down. He then told me to recite and I recited it, and he said: Thus was it sent down. The Qur'an was sent down in seven dialects. So recite what seems easy therefrom.

Bro

Skill

[sartajc]

oh ok i get it. its like the difference between brotha and brother...right?

[`Abd al-Azeez]

oh ok i get it. its like the difference between brotha and brother...right?

Basically, watch how Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (r) explaines it [first question]:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=ahmed+deedat

[~Stranger~]

Muhammad (SWT)

i thought you say SWT for Allah... it stands for Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, right?

[`Abd al-Azeez]

:D

i thought you say SWT for Allah... it stands for Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, right?

Yeah you do, I think brother sartajc is confused :D

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

yeaa.. i used to think the same..im like isnt that for Allah..? lolz

[vpb]

:sl:

as far as I know there are 10 qira'ats, but very few people today know all of them, usually only the 7 ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[.:Umniyah:.]

:sl:

as far as I know there are 10 qira'ats, but very few people today know all of them, usually only the 7 ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you know all 10 of them? If you do can you share?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


From bro Ansar Al-'Adl:

Assalamu Alykum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuhu,

Here is some useful information which I wanted to share.

THE AHRUF
First there is the issue nof Ahruf (dialects/modes). The Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf, as is proved in many mutawaatir ahadith. This was because different tribes pronounced and spelled words differently. The forms matched the dialects of following seven tribes:

1.Quraysh
2.Hudhayl
3.Thaq&#238;f
4.Haw&#226;zin
5.Kin&#226;nah
6.Tam&#238;m
7.Yemen

The revelation of the Qur'an in seven different ahruf made its recitation and memorization much easier for the various tribes. At the same time the Qur'an challenged them to produce a surah like it in their own dialect so that they would not complain about the incomprehensibility.

Regarding whether or not these ahruf have been preserved, there are three opinions, the strongest being that of Ibn Taymiyyah, Ash-Shatibee, Ar-Raazi, Ibn Katheer and Ibn Al-Jazaree and many others. They say that when Uthman rd was compiling the Qur'an, he had Zaib ibn Thabit record it without the vowelation and consonants to accomodate the different Ahruf. At some points where the ahruf differed greatly, they recorded it according to the Quraysh dialect. There are 4 benefits which show the Wisdom of Allah revealing the Qur'an in seven ahruf:

1. To facilitate the memorization of the Qur'an. The arabs did not all speak arabic in the same way. The ahruf eased the memorization and was significant in the preservation of the Qur'an.

2. To prove the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. For despite all the differences, the meaning of the Ahruf did not contradict one another, but rather were complimentary.

3. To prove the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad saws, for despite the fact that he was illiterate, the revelation of the Qur'an occured in different tribal dialects and different words, all of which consisted of the most fluent and eloquent speech of his time.

4. To honour the ummah of the Prophet Muhammad saws and show its superiority over all other nations.

THE QIRA'AT
Qira'at refers to the various manners of reciting the Qur'an. Each qiraa'a has its OWN rules of tajweed. In Murattal, it is not necessary to emphasize every vowel in clarity as it is in Mujawwad. Each qira'at is named after the Qari who was famous in reciting in that manner.
There are many different Qira'at, but Ibn Mujahid wrote a book on the seven most prominent. He did this on purpose to match the seven ahruf, but some people don't know that there are more than 7 qira'at. In fact, there are ten authentic Qira'at. For a qira'at to be authentic there are very detailed rules which we could discuss later if any wishes.
Here are the ten Qira'at with their famous Qaris:

1. Naafi' Al-Madanee. (Madinah)
Imam Malik recited in this manner. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal often recited in this manner.
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Qaloon and Warsh.

2. Ibn Katheer al-Makee. (Makkah)
Imam Shafi recited in this manner.
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Al-Buzzee and Qumbul.

3.Abu Amr al-Basri (Basra)
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Ad-Doori and As-Soosee.

4. Ibn Aamir ash-Shami (Syria)
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Hishaam and Ibn Thakwan.

5. Asim al-Kufi (Koofah)
Imaam Abu Hanifa recited in this manner. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal often recited in this manner.
The 2 Qaris who prserved this recitation are Shuba and Hafs

6. Hamzah Al-Kufi (Koofah)
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Khalaf (who also has his own Qira'at #10) and Khallaad.

7. Al-Kisaa'ee
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Al-Layth and ad-Doori

8. Abu Ja'far Al-Madanee (Madinah)
The two Qaris who preserved this recitation are Isa and Sulayman.

9. Yaqub ibn Al-Basri (Basra)
Imam Bukhari recited in this manner.
The 2 Qaris who preserved this recitation are Ruways and Rooh.

10. Khalaf (same one who preserved Hamzah's recitation, but this is his own method of reciation)
The 2 Qaris who preserved this reciation are Ishaq and Idris.

Today 95% of the world recites Hafs an Asim, 3% Warsh an Naafi, .7% Qaloon an-Naafi, .3% Ad-Doori an Abu Amr and 1% Ibn 'Aamir.

Please let me know if anyone found this informative.
:w:

(same one as before).


http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...aat-ahruf.html


You should also check this insha Allaah:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...raat/hafs.html

[Umar001]

Trust me the Qir'at are amazing, i will post a vide on youtube insha'Allah of surah najm it sounds so cool.