albee
08-03-2006, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
Idris
Only a fool would say that god can do anything...
Can God make another God?
Can God make another God?
Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?
Last, can God make himself man and be God at the same time?
Answer is NO to all the above because God has his limits in doing Godly thing.
In addition, becoming a God-man is ungodly … I mean want the objective of being a God-man?
Greetings:
The statement should be better read as " God can do anything that He wills to do."
Can God make another God?
As the LORD your God is ONE God, this a completely illogical question that does not warrant asking in the first place.
Can God kick anyone out of His kingdom?
The question would be better asked " Can God get anyone into His Kingdom?"
As for being "kicked" out of Gods Kingdom, the actual problem is getting into the Kingdom in the first place. As every one of us has sinned against God, we have all denied ourselves entry into His Kingdom by making ourselves UNCLEAN. And no UNCLEAN person could exist in the Purity of His Kingdom.
God will not "kick" anyone out who He has determined to be there, and He is SO detemined that we get there, that He gave us His Son as the Way in.
For it is only by God forgiving us for our sin, and making us "CLEAN " that we have any right to that which we have denied ourselves.
God forgives all who beleive that Jesus died for their sin, and CLEANSES them from all uncleaness by "washing" them down with the Blood shed by His Son.
Only when God has so purified a person, are they CLEAN enough to enter Gods Kingdom.
And after doing all these things to guarantee our entry, God will in no wise "kick" out anyone.
Can God make a stone so heavy that he cannot pick it up?
Someone once said that, Yes, God could do that. But by His very own nature He would not do so.
You then stated:
Answer is NO to all the above because God has his limits in doing Godly thing
As none of these things could be considered to be Godly in the first place, then how can the answer be NO?
In addition, becoming a God-man is ungodly … I mean want the objective of being a God-man?[
It is hard to understand how God could become man. But it is better to try and understand why He should do so.
Through reading,and understanding the Bible we begin to realise that God does not want us to try and understand how He could become a man, but why He chose to do so.
We do wrong things in Gods eyes, as did our parents, grand-parents, great grand-parents, all the way back to the first man.
Not everything we do wrong is intentional, we just cant seem to help it. Even the most religious of men are at times proud, jealous, unkind in the things they do and say at times etc. etc. There is something "rotten" about mankind that makes him "ungodly".
Everything in life that has any "rotteness" dies evetually, which is why we all die.
God originally made it very clear to man, that anything he done that was "rotten" or sinful would result in death and final Judgement.
As God Himself is the Judge, and His judgement is absolutely just, He would not be able to "let anyone off". However, He agreed that He would accept the death of an innocent man (innocent in the fact that he had never once disobeyed God) as a payment for the sins of the people.
The problem now was that no such man had ever lived. This is why Jesus came to this earth. Having no human father, and an undefiled (virgin) mother, none of the "rotteness" was inherited. His inheritance was pure, for God was His Father.
Jesus never disobeyed His Father. Most of us have broken this commandment of Gods at least once, and just this one act of diobedience is enough to make us sinners. On the final Judgement, just one thing done wrong makes us guilty before the Sinless One.
Jesus kept every commandment of God that we have been unable to do, and therefore became "the innocent man" paying the price (death) of the sins of other men.
As it is totally impossible for any normal human to live a completely sin free life, then if someone were to do so, that person would have to be more than a "normal human".
God Himself, sent His own Son to live and experience life and all its temptations and hardships,and still keep the Commandments that He had made and therfore not come to Final Judgement.
And He done this to make possible a way for sinners to have the price of their sins paid for before they have to enter the Court of Final Judgement.
No mere man can satisfy the Justice of a Holy God.
Albee
ReplyNothing offensive here at all.... I am going to list the story of a convert who was disenchanted with Christianity for some of the reasons you listed above. You listed the very core of the corruption in Christianity... Jesus didn't finish what he came here to do but shall return to do so....
The Bible Led Me to Islam
Abdul Malik LeBlanc tells how he discovered Islam within the pages of Bible
During my Christian days there were many verses in the Bible that made me question the religion I was following (Christianity). There was one particular verse, 1 Thessalonians 5:17 which says; "pray without ceasing," that lingered heavily in my mind. I often wondered how a person (Christian) was supposed to pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing? Without any biblical or divine guidance, the only way I thought this to be possible was to always do good deeds and keep the remembrance of God on my tongue and in my heart.
However, I found this to be impossible to do as a human being. But when I was introduced to Islam in 1987, and began to read and learn more about this way of life, I found that Islam provided divine guidance both from God (Allah) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by which a person could pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing, if it was the Will of God.
Whether waking up, eating, sleeping, putting on clothes, being in the presence of a woman, looking at a woman, going shopping, going to the bathroom, looking in the mirror, traveling, visiting the sick, sitting in a non-religious meeting, taking a bath, having sexual intercourse with one’s wife, yawning, cutting you nails, sneezing, greeting people, talking, hosting guests at home, walking, exercising, fighting, entering one’s house, praying and many other acts, Islam and the guidance therein of the Quran, and the acts and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), provided ways in which I could observe 1 Thessalonians 5:17. In addition, it allowed me to be at peace with myself and in submission to the one True God - Allah (SWT).
This divine guidance of Islam taught me greatly about my duties, responsibilities and birthright to my Creator (Allah), and more about the religion of Christianity as a Muslim, I [By the Will of Allah (SWT)] felt it necessary to share with you how the Bible led me to Islam.
Christianity
Given the fact that there has never been in the history of the Torah (Old Testament) the religion of God to be named after a Prophet (i.e. Adaminity, Abrahamity, Mosanity, etc.), I hope to explain that Jesus did not preach the religion of Christianity, but a religion that gives all Praise and Worship to The One God.
One of the questions I asked myself as I took an objective (second) look at Christianity was; where did the word Christianity come from and was the word ever mentioned to Jesus? Well, I did not find the word Christianity in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. Specifically, I did not find in the Bible where Jesus called himself a Christian.
The word Christian was first mentioned by a pagan to describe those who followed Jesus. It is mentioned one of three times in the New Testament by a pagan and Jew in Antioch about 43 AD, (Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16) long after Jesus left this earth. To accept the words of pagans as having any value or association with divinity, Jesus or God is contrary to the teachings of all Prophets.
Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and believe in doctrines made by men (Matthew 15:9).
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." This verse, Matthew 15:9, is further supported by these words of the Quran:
"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: "Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower o fall that is hidden and unseen.
Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world)." (Al-Ma’idah 5:116-117)
I found that Biblical verses like John 5:30, John 12:49, John 14:28, Isaiah 42:8 and Acts 2:22 support the above mentioned verses of the Quran.
Before leaving the subject of Christianity, I should mention one small point of observation. If Christians are Christ-like, why are they not greeting each other with the words; Peace be with you (Salamu Alaikum), as Jesus did in Luke 24:36. As you may be aware, the greeting from one Muslim to another Muslim is Assalamu Alaikum; a Christ-like saying.
Various Holy Bibles
It is worth mentioning that the Bible references cited might not be exactly as the Bible you are using. There are MANY Bibles on the market that are used by different Christian sects and all of these sects say that their book, though different, is the word of God. Such Bibles are: The Revised Standard Version 1952 & 1971, New American Standard Bible, The Holy Bible; New International Version, the Living Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic Version and the King James Version. A special note: I have not found in any of these Bibles where the "New Testament" calls itself the "New Testament," and nowhere does the "Old Testament" call itself the "Old? Testament." Also, the word "Bible" is unknown within the pages of the Bible.
In addition to the many different Christian sects and Bibles, I have learned that there are also different men, not Prophets, who founded these sects and are using various interpretations of the Bible and/or man-made doctrines as their creed.
I would like to share with you some thoughts that you may not have read or known about the Bible being the word of God. Briefly, let me mention that on September 8, 1957, the Jehovah’s witnesses in their "Awake" magazine carried this startling headline - 50,000 Errors in the Bible. If you ask a Jehovah’s witness about this headline, it may be said that today most of those errors have been eliminated. How many have been eliminated, 5,000? Even if 50 remain, would one attribute those errors to God?
Let me pose another question: if a "Holy" book contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. Let me share with you some conflicting verses both in the Old and New Testaments:
II Samuel 8:4 (vs)
II Samuel 8:9-10
II Kings 8:26
II Samuel 6:23
Genesis 6:3
John 5:37
John 5:31
I Chronicles 18:4
I Chronicles 18:9-10
II Chronicles 22:2
II Samuel 21:8
Genesis 9:29
John 14:9
John 8:14
Only two contradictions of the New Testament have been mentioned, but others will be referenced when the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Original Sin and Atonement are reviewed.
How could the "inspired words" of God get the genealogy of Jesus incorrect (See Matthew 1:6-16 where it states 26 forefathers up to Prophet David, and Luke 3:23-31 says 41 in number). Or for that matter, give a genealogy to Jesus who had NO father? See II Kings 19:1-37, now read Isaiah 37:1-38. Why is it that the words of these verse are identical? Yet they have been attributed to two different authors, one unknown and the other is Isaiah, who are centuries apart; and yet, the Christians have claimed these books to be inspired by God.
I looked up the word Easter in the Nelson Bible dictionary and learned that the word "Easter" (as mentioned in Acts 12:4) is a mistranslation of "pascha," the ordinary Greek word for "Passover." As, you know Passover is a Jewish celebration not a Christian holiday. I think human hands, all to human, had played havoc with the Bible.
From the brief points mentioned above, and the fact that Biblical scholars themselves have recognized the human nature and human composition of the Bible (Curt Kuhl, The Old Testament: Its Origin and Composition, PP 47, 51, 52), there should exist in the Christian’s mind some acceptance to the fact that maybe every word of the Bible is not God’s word.
As a side note to this subject, let me mention that some Christians believe that the Bible was dictated to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by a Christian monk, and that is why some of the biblical accounts are in the Quran. After some research, I found that this could not have happened because there were no Arabic Bible in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Muhammad (SAW) lived and preached. Therefore, no Arab, not even Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who was absolutely unlettered and unlearned, would have had the opportunity to examine the written text of the Bible in his own language.
The Gospels
If you read Luke 1:2-3, you will learn, as I did, that Luke (who was not one of the 12 disciples and never met Jesus) said that he himself was not an eyewitness, and the knowledge he gathered was from eyewitnesses, and not as words inspired by God. Incidentally, why does every "Gospel" begin with the introduction According to. Why "according to?" the reason for this is because not a single one of the gospels carries its original author’s autograph! Even the internal evidence of Matthew 9:9 proves that Matthew was not the author of the first Gospel which bears his name:
"And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He (Jesus) saith unto Him (Matthew), follow me (Jesus). And he (Matthew) arose, and followed Him (Jesus)."
Without any stretch of the imagination, one can see that the He’s and the Him’s of the above narration do not refer to Jesus or Matthew as its author, but a third person writing what he saw or heard - a hearsay account and not words inspired by God.
It is worth noting, and well known throughout the religious world, that the choice of the present four "gospels" of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ "the Son of God, only begotten of the father."
Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus. Even today, the whole of the Protestant word, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and other sects and denominations condemn the Roman Catholic version of the Bible because it contains seven "extra" books. The Protestant have bravely expunged seven whole books from their word of God. A few of the outcasts are the Books of Judith, Tobnias, Baruch and Esther.
Concerning Jesus’ teachings of the Gospel (Injeel), the Gospel writers frequently mentioned Jesus preaching the Gospel: Matthew 9:35, Mark 8:35, and Luke 20:1. The word "gospel" is recurrently used in the Bible. However, in the New Testament Greek edition the word Evangeline is used in place of the word gospel, which is translated to mean good news. My question was: what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus, and only of the 27 books are known to be attributed as the Gospel of Jesus. The remaining 23 were supposedly written by Paul. Muslims do believe that Jesus was given God’s "Good News." However, they do not recognized the present four Gospels as the utterances of Jesus.
The earliest Gospel is that of Mark’s which was written about 60-75 AD. Mark was the son of Barnabas’s sister. Matthew was a tax collector, a minor official who did not travel around with Jesus. Luke’s Gospel was written much later, and in fact, drawn from the same sources as Mark’s and Matthew’s. Luke was Paul’s physician, and like Paul, never met Jesus. By the way, did you know that the names Marks and Luke were not included in the 12 appointed disciples of Jesus as mentioned in Matthew 10:2-4?
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; the first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
John’s Gospel is from a different source, and was written in about 100 AD. He (John) should not be confused with John, the disciple, who was beheaded by Agrippa I in the year 44 CE long before this gospel was written. It should be accepted as a reliable account of the life of Jesus, and whether it should be included in the scriptures.
Christians, as I once did, boast about the Gospels according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke and according to John. However, if we think about it, there is not a single Gospel according to Jesus himself. According to the preface of the KJV (King James Version) new open Bible study edition, the word "Gospel" was added (see below) to the original titles, "According to John, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to Mark."
The permission to call "According to" writings the Gospel was not given by Jesus nor by any other divine guidance. These writings; Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, were never originally to be the Gospel. Therefore, Mark 1:1 can not be a true statement that his writing is the gospel of Jesus.
It should be mentioned that Muslims must believe in all Divine scriptures in their original form, their Prophets and making no distinction between them: The Suhuf (Abraham); Torah (Moses); Psalms (David); Gospel - or the Injeel (Jesus); and the Quran (Muhammad). It is clearly stated in the Quran 3:3 that Allah sent down the Torah and the Gospel. However, none of these scriptures remains in its original form now, except the Quran, which was sent for all mankind everywhere and for all times.
In addition to other reasons why the Quran was sent to mankind, as mentioned in 18:4-5 it was sent to warn the Christians of a terrible punishment from God if they cease not in saying: "Allah has begotten a son."
Muslims sincerely believe that everything Jesus (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) preached was from God; the Gospel (Injeel): The "good news" and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. There is no place mentioned in the present four Gospels that Jesus wrote a single word of his Gospel, nor is it mentioned that Jesus instructed anyone to do so. What passes off, as the "Gospels" today are the works of third party human hands. The Quran 2:79 says:
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"
Jesus As the Son of God
Is Jesus the Son of God? Matthew 3:17 could be used by some Christians to support the divine Sonship of Jesus. If Matthew 3:17, "And Lo a voice for heaven, saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," is used to support divine Sonship, then there should be no other verse that contradicts or gives equal divine Sonship to another person or persons in the Old or New Testament. However, many references were found in the Old and New Testaments that mentioned someone other than Jesus as having a divine Sonship to God. See Exodus 4:22:
"Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.
The word "Son" must not be accepted literally because God addresses many of his chosen servants as son and sons. The Jews have also claimed Ezra to be the Son of God. The New Testament Greek words used for "son" (pias and paida, which mean servant or son in the sense of servant) are translated as son in reference to Jesus and as servant in reference to others in some translations of the Bible.
Further, the term "Father" as used by Jesus corresponds more closely to the term Rabb, i.e. One who nourishes and sustains, so that in Jesus’ doctrine, God is "Father" – Nourisher and Sustainer – of all men. The New Testament also interprets "son of God" to be mystical: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14). This mystical suggestion is further supported with Jesus being called the only begotten Son of God.
In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David:
"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."
Does this mean that God had two sons? Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48). Luke 3:38 says:
"...Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God."
Who is mentioned in Hebrews 7:3 as like unto the Son of God? It is Melchisedec, King of Salem, as mentioned in Hebrews 7:1. He (Melchisedec) is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not preferred to be the Son of God? Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?
I would like to share with you an obvious contradiction between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:16-17. John 3:16 reads:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live.
These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says;
"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."
There is no commandment that says to worship Jesus, but there that tells us to worship God alone.
In Luke 4:41, Jesus refused to be called the Son of God by demons. Do you think that Jesus would rebuke the demons, or anyone else for that matter, for telling the truth? Unquestionably, no! Jesus rebuked the demons because they were saying something false by calling him the Son of God. Also, if the demons knew that Jesus was the Christ, for Jesus to shut them up because they called him the Christ is a contradiction to Jesus’ mission.
In Luke 9:20 & 21, Jesus said unto his disciples:
"But who say ye that I am? Peter answered saying, "The Christ of God, and Jesus straightly charged them and commanded them to tell no man that thing."
Furthermore, verses like John 3:2, John 6:14, John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16 and 24:19 confirm that Jesus accepted the title of teacher, Prophet and called himself the son of man in Matthew 8:20, 12:40, 17:9 & 12, 26:24, Luke 9:26, 22:48, 22:69, and 24:7. The most conclusive verse that says Jesus is the son (servant) of man is Mark 14:26 where Jesus is mentioning the Day of Reckoning. Jesus specifically said we would see the son of man, not the Son of God, sitting in the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says:
"It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam 19:35)
The teachings of Jesus as the Son of God were not preached by Jesus nor accepted by Jesus, but were taught by Paul as supported in Acts 9:20:
"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."
Did Jesus ever claim to be God or say, "Here am I, your God, worship me"? The answer is no. For there is no single, unequivocal statement in the Bible whereby Jesus himself declares, "I am God, therefore worship me." Virtually all of the more than two thousand verses of the epistles of Paul are his own fabrications to include Romans 9:5 that says, depending upon which Bible you read:
"...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God."
Christians should know that Paul himself mentions his own gospel, not Jesus, in his epistle to the Romans when he says in Romans 2:16:
"In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
In face, the Pauline epistle to the Romans serves as the foundation of today’s Christianity. Thus, it is the Christians whose efforts will be wasted in this life as they think they were acquiring good by their works when they attribute partners to God, as stated in Chapter 18:103-106 of the Qur’an:
"Say: Shall we tell you of those who lost most in respect of their deeds? Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" they are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of judgment, give them any weight. That is their reward, Hell; because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
(Al-Kahf 18:103-106)
Indeed, it is so strange and ironic, knowing that none of Paul’s epistle to the Romans, more than 430 verses, were ever formulated by Jesus. Paul should have made direct reference to the pristine teachings of Jesus, if only the former claim for apostleship by divine inspiration was indeed true. Instead, large parts of his epistles’ Biblical quotations (notably those in the Epistle to the Romans) were taken from the Old Testament – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea. His epistles were, indeed a product of tedious efforts, but that does not make Paul far better than any of the other men who authored the Bible, nor does it make him a Prophet.
Other practices that were adopted under Paul included the following: the Roman sun-day as the Christian Sabbath; the traditional birthday of the Sun-god as the birthday of Jesus; the emblem of the sun-god (the cross of light) to be the emblem of Christians; and, the incorporation of all the ceremonies which were performed at the Sun-god’s birthday celebrations.
As I come to a close concerning the position of Christ, I would like to ask my Christian reader bow down and pray earnestly to God and ask Him to invoke His curse on you, your wife, your sons, and your daughters if what you believe about Christ (Christ is God, Son of God or part of a trinity of God) are false. Likewise, I have learned that if you asked a Muslim to earnestly pray to God to invoke His curse on him, his wife, his sons, and his daughters if what he is saying about Christ (Prophet, Messenger of God, A Word from God) are false, the Muslims are firm in their faith knowing that Christ is not God, nor the Son of God and nor part of a trinity of God. This exercise of asking God to invoke His curse on you and your family may sound a bit cruel, but it would prove two points: (1) you would know that you are on the wrong path; and, (2) it would put you on the right path.
The Crucifixion and Atonement
A very significant event in the Christian doctrine is the Crucifixion of Jesus. Before talking about the many controversies surrounding the Crucifixion, it should be mentioned that it was a gospel of Paul’s which professed the Crucifixion/Resurrection of Jesus (II Timothy 2:8):
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."
In addition, the gospel of the resurrection in Mark 16:9-20 was already removed from the text by gospel writers in the 1952 edition of the Revised Standard Version and then, for some reasons, restored in the 1971 edition. In many Bibles, if not removed, it is printed in small print or between two brackets and with commentary (See the Revised Standard Version, New American Bible and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures).
The traditional biblical account of Jesus’ Crucifixion is that he was arrested and crucified by the orders and plans of the chief priest and Jewish elders. This account was denied in the 1960’s by the highest Catholic Christian authority, the Pope. He issued a statement in which he said the Jews had nothing to do with Jesus’ Crucifixion.
Did any one of the disciples or the writers of the Gospel see the Crucifixion or the Resurrection? No! In Mark 14:50, it says the disciples forsook Jesus and fled. Even Peter forsook Jesus after the cock crowed three times as Jesus foretold:
(Matthew 26:75) And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
The most likely persons whom may have witnessed this moment in Jesus’ life were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, the mother of Zebedee’s children and other women (Matthew 27:55-56). However, there is no statement or account in the Gospels from those women as to what they saw or heard.
The disciple(s) found the sepulchre where Jesus was laid down, empty, and made the conclusion that he was resurrected because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the alleged Crucifixion. Nobody saw the moment he was resurrected. Jesus himself stated that he did not die on the cross in Luke 24:36-41, as explained in the following paragraphs.
Early Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. She recognized him after a conversation to be Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said (John 20:17):
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."
Now read Luke 24:36-41:
"And as they (disciples) thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why so thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me end see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of boiled fish and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."
Does a spiritual or dead body have a need to eat food? Jesus eating of food was to prove to the disciples that he was not a spirit, but rather, he was still alive and not dead.
Jesus being alive and not dead is further supported in his own prophecy (Matthew 12:40):
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Did Jesus fulfill this miracle? Christians would say "yes," because Jesus died and rose three days later according to Luke 24:36 and Matthew 20:19, to name a few verses. However, in line with the miracle of Jonah and according to the Bible, Jesus only spent one day and two nights in the sepulchre, and not three days and three nights as he prophesied.
Jesus was put in the sepulchre just before sunset on Friday (Good Friday) and was found missing before sunrise on Sunday (Easter). If we were to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the time frame a bit, one may say that Jesus spent three days in the earth, but there is no way and I repeat, no way, that Jesus spent three nights in the earth. We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty.
Consequently, there are some inconsistencies as to whether Jesus fulfilled his own prophecy. Whether he was actually crucified, or if the day (Good Friday) of his alleged Crucifixion is wrong. Another significant point to mention is that Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale. The Christians says, Jesus was dead in the belly of the earth/tomb, and this contradicts Jesus’ own prophecy. Jesus said (Luke 11:30):
"As Jonah was...so shall the Son of man be."
If Jonah was alive, so was Jesus.
One critical event that took place before the alleged Crucifixion was the prayer of Jesus to God for help. Luke 22:42:
"Saying Father if thou be willing, remove this cup (of death) from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done."
Jesus’ prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God according to Luke 22:43 and Hebrews 5:7. Therefore, if all of Jesus’ prayer were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he have died on the cross?
In Matthew 27:46, it states that while Jesus was on the cross, he said:
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?).
If Jesus said these words, it represents a blatant declaration of disbelief according to all theological authorities. This is a great insult as such words could only come from an unbeliever in God. Further, it is incredible that such words should come from a Prophet of God, because God never breaks His promise and His Prophets never complained against His promise, especially when the Prophet’s mission is understood. It could be said that whoever relates that this statement was said by a Prophet (Jesus), is a disbeliever.
Muslims believe, as the Qur’an states, Jesus was not crucified. It was the intention of his enemies to put him to death on the cross, but Allah saved him from their plot. Qur’an 4:157:
"That they (Jews) said boasting, "We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, but they (Jews) killed him not, nor crucified him..."
(An Nisa 4:157)
ReplyPhil12123
08-09-2006, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
AvarAllahNoor
First of all we ALL have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us regardless of religion/caste/gender/sexual orientation etc etc!
What is your authority for that statement? Your opinion? Your scripture? Or what? Please give me a verse or something to back it up.
According to the Bible, the Word of God, God gives His Spirit ONLY to
believers in His Son, those who have been born again by the Spirit, and thus, regenerated by the Spirit.
John 7:
38. "
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.''
39. But this He spoke concerning
the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 14:
16. "And I will pray the
Father, and He
will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells
with you and will be
in you.
Under the Old Covenant, the Spirit of God came and went, usually resting UPON someone for special service or empowerment, but not abiding IN anyone permanently. For example, when the 70 elders were selected to assist Moses in judging the people, we read God saying, in
Numbers 11:
17. "Then I will come down and talk with you there.
I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone.
24. So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord, and he gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tabernacle.
25. Then
the Lord came down in the cloud, and spoke to him,
and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.
But the Spirit was also taken away from people, like King Saul when he disobeyed God. And when David sinned with Bath-sheba, he prayed to God for forgiveness, saying, as recorded in
Ps. 51:1-11,
1. Have mercy upon me, O God, According to Your lovingkindness; According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, And cleanse me from my sin.
3. For
I acknowledge my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me.
4.
Against You, You only, have I sinned, And done this evil in Your sight That You may be found just when You speak, And blameless when You judge.
5. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
6. Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8. Make me to hear joy and gladness, That the bones which You have broken may rejoice.
9.
Hide Your face from my sins, And blot out all my iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11. Do not cast me away from Your presence, And
do not take Your Holy Spirit from me."
Really, only verse 11 was needed to make my point here, but the rest is for the benefit of anyone who thinks David did not sin because of some unscriptural doctrine about the infallibility of the prophets.
Under the New Covenant, the Spirit is IN believers to abide there forever (John 14:16-17, quoted above).
Finally, Paul, writing to
believers, says in
Romans 8:
8. So then, those who are
in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But
you are not in the flesh but
in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10. And
if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But
if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
The above (read the whole context of Romans 8) contrasts those who are "in the flesh" i.e., having not the Spirit, and those "in the Spirit" i.e., having the Spirit dwelling in them.
In view of the foregoing, there is NO basis whatsoever for you to make the unscriptural statement that you made above. So, let's strike that from the record and try again.
Peace
ReplyPhil12123
08-11-2006, 12:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by
AvarAllahNoor
The result of human errors and the misinterpretation of the Bible leads many Christians to believe that Jesus is God. The first verse of John is very misleading in explaining the word of God. “In the beginning was the Word; The Word was in God's presence, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). An objective reading of this verse raises the question: If the “Word” was in “God's presence”, how could it be God? When something is in your presence, it has to be, by definition, separate from you. The logical understanding of these lines is that the “Word” originates from God, or represents God. In addition, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen his glory: the glory of an only son coming from the Father filled with enduring love” (John 1:14). This verse makes a clear distinction between the Word and the Father. In no way does it argue for the divinity of Jesus. The Word comes from God, and thus reflects the glory of the Creator. This understanding is confirmed by the fact that throughout the Gospels, Jesus emphasizes that he did not speak on his own, that God told him what to say. This clearly indicates that Jesus delivered the Word of God, not that he was God. Here is an illustration, “whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me" (John 12:44-50). In John 8:40, Jesus describes himself as "a man who has told you the truth which I have heard from God”. Thus again we see that Jesus delivered the Word of God.
"
Human errors and the misinterpretation of the Bible" leading Christians to believe Jesus is God?
No, it is just reading the clear words of Scripture and believing them. Let's read it again:
John 1:
1.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2.
He was in the beginning with God.
3.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John [the Baptist].
7. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.
10.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And
the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
The subject of those verses is THE WORD. V. 14 tells us WHO this WORD is. The only one it could be referring to ("the only begotten of the Father") is Christ, pre-incarnate and incarnate. As the pre-incarnate Word of God, He was in the beginning and He was WITH God and He WAS GOD (v. 1). He created all things and nothing was created without Him (v. 2, 10).
Let me copy and paste here part of a prior post:
The Greek word for "God" used in the second clause of the verse (“and the Word was with God”) is the definite form ho theos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the third clause (“and the Word was God”), the definite article "ho" (=the) is missing, so the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form theos, which means ‘'God". There are rules of Greek grammar that explain that. Let me see if I can articulate them.
First, in the Greek language, there is no indefinite article, like "a". For a sentence to be translated with an "a" the translator may look for the definite article "the" or "ho" and if none is there, he might render it, for example, "boy" or "a boy" depending on the context; he would not render it "the boy".
Secondly, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word order in the original Greek is literally, "and God was the Word" But the subject of the entire verse is "the Word" not God. So to make it clear that "the Word" is the subject, there can be no "the" before "God" or it would be uncertain what the subject of the clause is and what the predicate nominative is. That is, it would be literally, "and the God was the Word." In that case God and Word would be interchangeable and we would not know which is the subject and which is the predicate nominative. The definite article "the" is left out before "God" not so a translator would render it "a God" or "a god" but so that we know "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative.
So, if "the Word" is the subject and "God" is the predicate nominative, what does the clause mean when it says, "and the Word was God"? The use of the definite article and "God" in the second clause, "and the Word was
with [the] God" shows the distinction of persons, one
WITH the other---two persons, the Word (Jesus before the incarnation) and the Father.
But in the third clause, "the Word was God," the word "God" is a descriptive noun telling us not
WHO the Word is, but
WHAT the Word is. He is GOD or DEITY, as to His essence, substance or nature. He is not the Father,
with whom He is, but He is the same as the Father in terms of His essence, substance or nature. He is fully God or Deity, as the Father is, but He is not the Father. He is a separate personage, equal to the Father in His essence, substance or nature. But since that essence, substance, or nature is the SAME for both the Father and the Word, there are not TWO Gods, but ONE.
Consequently, John 1:1, can accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word
was God.”
Now, it is true that when the Word was made flesh, Jesus humbly submitted Himself totally to the Father's will---
said what the Father wanted Him to say,
did what the Father wanted Him to do, and
died when the Father wanted Him to die:
Phil 2:
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who,
being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be
equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that
every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Peace
ReplySkillganon
08-12-2006, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
Phil12123
"Human errors and the misinterpretation of the Bible" leading Christians to believe Jesus is God? No, it is just reading the clear words of Scripture and believing them. Let's read it again:
John 1:
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John [the Baptist].
7. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light which gives light to every man who comes into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
EDIT
......
Interesting, one must assess the possible meaning of the word "Logos", and History of the above statement that appears in the biginning of John 1.
Before st John adopted it has been used by the greek and the jews to convey certain religiouse teaching.
"It reappears in the writings of the Stoics, and it is especially by them that this theory is developed. God, according to them, "did not make the world as an artisan does his work, but it is by wholly penetrating all matter that He is the demiurge of the universe" (Galen, "De qual. incorp." in "Fr. Stoic.", ed. von Arnim, II, 6); He penetrates the world "as honey does the honeycomb" (Tertullian, "Adv. Hermogenem", 44), this God so intimately mingled with the world is fire or ignited air; inasmuch as He is the principle controlling the universe, He is called Logos; and inasmuch as He IS the germ from which all else develops, He is called the seminal Logos (logos spermatikos). This Logos is at the same time a force and a law, an irresistible force which bears along the entire world and all creatures to a common end, an inevitable and holy law from which nothing can withdraw itself, and which every reasonable man should follow willingly (Cleanthus, "Hymn to Zeus" in "Fr. Stoic." I, 527-cf. 537). Conformably to their exegetical habits, the Stoics made of the different gods personifications of the Logos, e. g. of Zeus and above all of Hermes." [1]
Also to note the Logos is not conceived of as nature or immanent necessity, but as an intermediary agent by which the transcendent God governs the world. This conception appears in Plutarch, especially in his "Isis and Osiris"; from an early date in the first century of the Christian era, it influenced profoundly the Jewish philosopher Philo. [1]
Philo
Philo had speculated as to the Logos; but their works are known only through the rare fragments which Christian authors and Philo himself have preserved. Philo alone is fully known to us, his writings are as extensive as those of Plato or Cicero, and throw light on every aspect of his doctrine; from him we can best learn the theory of the Logos, as developed by Alexandrian Judaism. The character of his teaching is as manifold as its sources:
sometimes, influenced by Jewish tradition, Philo represents the Logos as the creative Word of God ("De Sacrific. Ab. et Cain"; cf. "De Somniis", I 182; "De Opif. Mundi", 13);
at other times he describes it as the revealer of God, symbolized in Scripture by the angel of Jahveh ("De Somniis", I, 228-39, "De Cherub.", 3; "De Fuga", 5; "Quis rer. divin. haeres sit", 201-205).
Oftener again he accepts the language of Hellenic speculation; the Logos is then, after a Platonistic concept, the sum total of ideas and the intelligible world ("De Opif. Mundi", 24, 25; "Leg. Alleg.", I, 19; III, 96),
or, agreeably to the Stoic theory, the power that upholds the world, the bond that assures its cohesion, the law that determines its development ("De Fuga", 110; "De Plantat. Noe," 8-10; "Quis rer. divin. haeres sit", 188, 217; "Quod Deus sit immut.", 176; "De Opif. Mundi", 143).
Throughout so many diverse concepts may be recognized a fundamental doctrine: the Logos is an intermediary between God and the world; through it God created the world and governs it; through it also men know God and pray to Him ("De Cherub.", 125; "Quis rerum divin. haeres sit", 205-06.) In three passages the Logos is called God ("Leg. Alleg.", III, 207; "De Somniis", I, 229; "In Gen.", II, 62, cited by Eusebius, "Praep. Ev.", VII, 13); but, as Philo himself explains in one of these texts (De Somniis), it is an improper appellation and wrongly employed, and he uses it only because he is led into it by the Sacred Text which he comments upon. Moreover, Philo does not regard the Logos as a person; it is an idea, a power, and, though occasionally identified with the angels of the Bible, this is by symbolic personification.
You may wan't to read the whole article, to see the different doctrinal anology of the Word Logos.
Full Link:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm Replyevangel
08-20-2006, 01:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
i_m_tipu
Why Jesus did never told anyone to Worship him.
Matthew 3:16-17
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "
This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."
Pronounced as the Son of God
Matthew 9:2
And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son;
your sins are forgiven."
Who but God can forgive sins?
Matthew 9:28
When he entered the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to him, "
Yes, Lord."
Many times refered to as Lord
Matthew 10:18
and you will be dragged before governors and kings
for my sake, to bear testimony before them and the Gentiles.
For His sake or in His name
Matthew 10:38-39
and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not
worthy of me.
He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life
for my sake will find it
To be worthy as in worthy of the Lord
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to
whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
He alone came from heaven and upon His final return He will bring His flock
Matthew 12:7-8
And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.
For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath."
Quite the claim for just a man
Matthew 14:33
And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
His disciples recognize who He is. Eleven of the twelve apostles died as martyrs. Men do not die so readily for a fallicy.
Matthew 15:27-28
She said, "
Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their
masters’ table."
[28]: Then Jesus answered her, "
O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly
Great was her faith in the master (God)
Matthew 16:15-16
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter replied, "
You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Again His disciples recognize who He is
Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock
I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
His church and who but God can give the keys of the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the
Son of man coming in his kingdom."
His angels,
His kingdom
Matthew 17:5
He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said,
"This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Stated for a second time
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered
in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
In the name of Jesus, in the name of God
Matthew 20:21
And he said to her, "What do you want?" She said to him, "Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left,
in your kingdom."
His kingdom
Matthew 20:28
even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to
give his life as a ransom for many."
The big "Why?"
Matthew 21:13
He said to them, "It is written, ‘
My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you make it a den of robbers."
The house of worship was
His house
Matthew 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;
then will appear the sign of the
Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the
Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;
and
he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
His return with
His angels. Do you have any angels? Me either.
Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, "
Truly this was the Son of God!"
Even a Roman sees Him for who He is
Replyi_m_tipu
08-21-2006, 12:48 PM
Thanks for ur reply
You answering the post# 69
Read the entire post. There are some logics with questions. It can’t not be called good explanation if you just give the answer with a single thought.
This thread makes me interested.
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
He alone came from heaven and upon His final return He will bring His flock
what's ur point.
Where did the soul coming from
I don't know yet what Christian believe
We (Muslim) believe every Soul was/is/will come from heaven. (I believe it’s more logical than any)
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Even a Roman sees Him for who He is.
Roman used to say Lord to almost every superior personal.
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
"And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven ."
concern of the transition
Every prophet done that. not exactly the same word you saying
Problem is no prophet is God But Jesus is God.
How come, there is only a single time a prophet becomes a God.
Hard to find any difference between jesus and other prophets.
But Jesus is God and the other prophet is not God.
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Pronounced as the Son of God
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
The house of worship was His house
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Many times referred to as Lord
that period of time to still now
Mighty person or superior leader or powerful or respectful person called as
"My Load" (such as Chief judge called as "My Lord" {May God forbid})
It’s a tradition of the people calling impressive/whatever person a “My Lord”
This “My Lord” do never makes a man God.
Look it Very important…….
I have also lot of verses that refer jesus is not God at all.
When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
(Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) “But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. “
That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be.
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19).
Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) “
But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. “
That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful.
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18).
"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37)
He also said in
John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."
Now it is good enough to makes a man saying”oh im lost”
You can probe according to some translations that jesus is some how close to be called God for the miracles he had.
But you must know that every prophet had miracles.
It is not the debate that on that time follow jesus word is equal to follow Gods word.
Bcoz following any Prophet's word equal to follow Gods word. (if the real word exits)
Prophets are guided by God. And following Prophet is indeed following God.
Jesus really never say “he is God” also never directly say “worship me”.
It’s a understanding of some priests that
Some believe jesus and the God are same
being. Now lot of Christian proves it wrong.
Some believe in trinity 1+1+1=1 :-\
You must understand reforming the religion can not be happen. Bcoz reform mean religion had error that also mean God gave error massage.
but reform in understanding can be happan(only those thing what prophet did not explained/not recorded).
Reality is God never gave error massage. It’s a man who make the massage error in order to stronger their (some priest) thought or nothing else.
But I can show you the voice of God.
[This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.]
Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.
That is how God gave u order to worship him.
Chapter 5, Verses 116-117
“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit `Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.”
so true…..
Never did jesus say worship him and his mother.
Simply Bcoz he has no right to say it.
the explanation u gave do not probe jesus say "Worship me".
this "Worship me" cannot be a indirect order. if it comming from God.
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