Question for Christians...

[MuslimCONVERT]

I wonder if there is an answer to this question...

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

[MuslimCONVERT]

I wonder if there is an answer to this question...

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is mortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

[PrIM3]

what do you think it means.. it means that the Second person in the Trinity the Son of God (the Word of God) became Fully man as well as Him being Fully God.
Now I know that everytime(if this is the right word for me to say) that God has to give up some type of power because of time(sorry I lost my mind... hopefully you know what I mean).

as Scripture says

in Hebrew 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in everyway, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


in 2:17

atonement meaning in order for Christ to turn aside the wrath of God against guilty sinners, he had to become one with them and die as a substitute for them.

[nimrod]

Muslim Convert, I have answered that question several times.

Answer me this:

Could God NOT become a man if he chose to?

If God chose to become a man, would that man not be perfect?

Would that man not be 100% man and 100% God?

If you will answer any of those questions, in any sort of reasonable manner (Not a slam against you, it is just that I have given answers to the folks on this forum that were rejected for no logical reason), I will do my best to engage in a fruitful discourse with you.

Thanks
Nimrod

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[QuranStudy]

That answer is not satisfactory but w/e floats your boat.

Why would God want to be man to begin with?
What did he have to be "born?"
Why was he "crucified?" Couldnt he destroy the Romans if he wished?

Why would any sane man believe a human is the son of God? if I said I was the son of God, would you beieve me. It's true that he made miracles, but so did Moses and Jacob.

I respect your faith, but sometimes it disturbs me when Christians cannot explain the ogic behind their beliefs.

Peace.

[Joe98]

Couldnt he destroy the Romans if he wished?

Couldn't he destroy Nazi Germany if he wished?

[Joe98]

Why would God want to be man to begin with?

Because men feel pain. Supernatural beings do not. Jesus was tortured and crucified. It was very painfull.


If you were a father you would understand that losing a son is also painfull. The Christian belief is that God sent his son to be tortured and crucified.


I understand that even though I don't believe it myself.

Do you understand?

[MuslimCONVERT]

I wonder if there is an answer to this question...

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is mortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

No one has yet to answer this question...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MuslimCONVERT;

In a way mankind is kind of mortal and immortality, we are mortal on Earth and when we die we hope to achieve immortality and an everlasting life with God.

Jesus always was immortal, then he became mortal and died, now he is immortal for ever.

If God can create the universe and life from nothing, this should not be beyond God.

In a way the questions about Christ’s divinity are a way of giving Christians a greater hope of life after death.

In the spirit of striving for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[nimrod]

Muslim Convert, when you use the word mortal, you do understand that mortal refers to the death of the physical but not the spiritual, correct?

Your spirit survives death as well. What exactly, logically speaking, about Jesus being God and having a mortal body and an immortal spirit, are you having trouble with?

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

A very good post Eric, we do have the hope of immortality, for us Christians it is the accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior that turns that hope into reality.

In the Muslim faith, it is Islam that they see as doing the very same thing.

That is why I do not understand Muslim Convert’s line of thinking.

Thanks
Nimrod

[QuranStudy]

Couldn't he destroy Nazi Germany if he wished?

The Nazis werent trying to kill Jesus (aka God).

If you were a father you would understand that losing a son is also painfull. The Christian belief is that God sent his son to be tortured and crucified.

How is that possible? Believing that would debunk the notion that Christianity is monotheistic. Either Jesus is Gid Himself or he is a human being. I tend to believe the latter.

My question to Christians:

If I said I was the son of God, would you believe me?

Even though I am Muslim, I often tend to question the "virgin birth" notion as well.

[Phil12123]

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

I suspect you have been on the forum long enough to have seen these questions asked and answered many, many times. But the answers never seem to get through. I wish I had the links to all the other answers, because one more attempt may be just a futile, but here goes....

First, you have to understand the Trinity---ONE God, Three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). It was the SON who, though equally GOD with the Father and Spirit, took UPON Himself flesh (John 1:1,14). The Father did not take upon HIMSELF flesh; the Spirit did not take upon HIMSELF flesh. ONLY the SON took upon Himself flesh. The FATHER sent the SON to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The WAY the Son was the Savior of the world was by dying for the sins of the world. In order to do that HE had to take upon Himself mortal flesh capable of dying. His FLESH died, not His Deity. He was always GOD (clothed in the mortal, fleshly body), and yet He was also MAN because of that flesh. Phil. 2 explains it this way:

5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The above is the New King James Version. The New American Standard Version renders the Greek this way:

5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus, though wrapped in flesh in order to die for our sins, never ceased to be God (i.e., possessing Deity as to His substance, nature, or essence, which never died and never will die). And in that flesh, He showed total submission and obedience to the Father, as an example and model for us (the opposite of what Adam and Eve did).

So let's review, as we answer your specific questions:

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Jesus was/is God and always will be, whether in the original "form of God" (pure spirit, no flesh), or as He was when He walked this earth before going to the Cross (Deity with mortal flesh), or as He is now (Deity in a glorified, immortal resurrection body).

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

Yes.

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

God in the Person of Jesus Christ became mortal in order to die for our sins.

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

When He cut off His fingernails, He was cutting off little pieces of His flesh, not little pieces of God. His fingernails were not His Deity; they were part of His mortal flesh that was the outer "form of a servant" or "likeness of men" (see Phil 2:7, quoted above).

Peace

[MuslimCONVERT]

The gist of the answers I am getting are, "The spirit part of Jesus was God and the body part was man..." -Is this correct?

[Phil12123]

The gist of the answers I am getting are, "The spirit part of Jesus was God and the body part was man..." -Is this correct?

I suppose. There definitely is a distinction between the material part (the body) and the immaterial part (whether it's called "spirit" or divine nature or deity or whatever), because Jesus said, in Matt. 26:41, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.'' Also, the material part or body began when Mary, a virgin, conceived in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, etc., whereas the immaterial part HAD no beginning; it was/is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus' Deity did not begin at conception; it had no beginning because it was/is eternal.

Peace

[MuslimCONVERT]

I suppose. There definitely is a distinction between the material part (the body) and the immaterial part (whether it's called "spirit" or divine nature or deity or whatever), because Jesus said, in Matt. 26:41, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.'' Also, the material part or body began when Mary, a virgin, conceived in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, etc., whereas the immaterial part HAD no beginning; it was/is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus' Deity did not begin at conception; it had no beginning because it was/is eternal.

Peace

Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.

[Phil12123]

Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.

What "died for our sins" is the only part of Jesus that COULD die, and it was hardly "empty"! It contained His precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:

18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

That was a fulfillment of all the O.T. types and sacrifices.

Leviticus 17:11. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Did you see the movie, The Passion of the Christ? Aside from some of the Catholic additions not found in Scripture, it did give you some idea of the suffering Christ went through in making that sacrifice for our sins. If that were ALL He went through, it would be terribly wrong to say He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice for us. There was another aspect of it that The Passion does not really depict---the agony of the sinless Son of God bearing all the sins of the world, from the first sin of Adam and Eve to the last sin that will ever be committed by mankind down to the end of the age, and being forsaken in that moment by His Father, the Holy God Who has "purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" (Habakkuk 1:13). That is why Christ on the cross quoted David in Psalm 22:1---"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It was because of all those sins that His Father "forsook" Him in that instant, not wanting to look upon sin, OUR sin. BUT, as Isaiah said, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:10-11). All that the Father and the Son went through for YOU is amazing beyond words. What is your response? To fall down on your knees in humble, awestruck amazement? Or to continue in your unbelief and, thus, in your sins, to face Jesus Himself as your Judge? It is your choice.

Peace

[MuslimCONVERT]

What "died for our sins" is the only part of Jesus that COULD die, and it was hardly "empty"! It contained His precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:

18. knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19. but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

That was a fulfillment of all the O.T. types and sacrifices.

Leviticus 17:11. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Did you see the movie, The Passion of the Christ? Aside from some of the Catholic additions not found in Scripture, it did give you some idea of the suffering Christ went through in making that sacrifice for our sins. If that were ALL He went through, it would be terribly wrong to say He didn't make the ultimate sacrifice for us. There was another aspect of it that The Passion does not really depict---the agony of the sinless Son of God bearing all the sins of the world, from the first sin of Adam and Eve to the last sin that will ever be committed by mankind down to the end of the age, and being forsaken in that moment by His Father, the Holy God Who has "purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" (Habakkuk 1:13). That is why Christ on the cross quoted David in Psalm 22:1---"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" It was because of all those sins that His Father "forsook" Him in that instant, not wanting to look upon sin, OUR sin. BUT, as Isaiah said, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:10-11). All that the Father and the Son went through for YOU is amazing beyond words. What is your response? To fall down on your knees in humble, awestruck amazement? Or to continue in your unbelief and, thus, in your sins, to face Jesus Himself as your Judge? It is your choice.

Peace

Thats all fine and good, but if the blood of Jesus (Saas) is the man part (the flesh) -and the soul is the God part... then we are back to step one. If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did.

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace MuslimCONVERT

If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God.

We don’t die for our sins, only our body dies.

I have friends and family, who have no faith and different faiths to me; we need to pray for each other that we might all have eternal life with God.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith tolerance and understanding.

Eric

[nimrod]

Muslim Convert "If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did".

What is death if not the dieing of the physical? (There is a spiritual death, for many, as well, but man is only destined to experience that after the physical death.)

How could God experience death if not bodily? (I know you reject that, but you are asking about the reasoning behind Christian beliefs.)

If all things are held together by God’s will, then if God experienced spiritual death, then all things would become undone if God’s spirit dies.

As to a different part of what you are asking about, Christian teachings say that Adam was not subject to death when he was first created.

I am curious about Islam’s teachings concerning this last part.

Thanks
Nimrod

[DigitalStorm82]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible... but it is mentioned in the Quran.

Jesus said: our God is one Lord. (One God)
Mohammad said: there are no Gods but Allah (Lord/God) (One God)

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

peace be with you,
Hamid

[PrIM3]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible... but it is mentioned in the Quran.

Jesus said: our God is one Lord. (One God)
Mohammad said: there are no Gods but Allah (Lord/God) (One God)

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

peace be with you,
Hamid

because what type of sacrifice would be sufficient enough to take care of sin? other than God Himself.
I think if you knew Hebrew (not saying you don't) you could understand... I think the answer lies in the original text of the Bible.
God sent His one and only Holy Son to die on the cross for us or He sent His Holy Word to give us a promise that those who believe in Him will be healed from their transgressions.

[DigitalStorm82]

If he is the son... then he isn't God...

God is not created.... So if the ALMIGHTY GOD created a "son" he (son) is definitely not a GOD... because GOD IS FOREVER... always was.. and always will be...

And if you say Jesus was GOD... then why would Jesus say HE who sent me... who is He if jesus himself is God?

Im sorry your answers don't make any sense...

[Phil12123]

Thats all fine and good, but if the blood of Jesus (Saas) is the man part (the flesh) -and the soul is the God part... then we are back to step one. If all that died was the body of Jesus, then all that died for your sins, the "ultimate sacrifice" is a human body. Not God. God didn't die for your sins. A body did.

Before the "Word" was made flesh (John 1:14), He was in the beginning and He was with the Father and He was, as to His nature, substance, or essence, God or Deity (John 1:1). He was in "the form of God" and "equal with God" (Phil. 2:6). As such He was/is eternal, existing from everlasting, from eternity past, and immortal. In order to bear the sins of mankind and die for them, He had to take upon Himself that flesh, which is mortal. It was that flesh that died for our sins, not His Deity. In God's plan, as prefigured in the O.T., it was the shedding of His blood and thereby the death of His body that was the atoning sacrifice for our sins. His Deity did not die for our sins; deity cannot die.

Hebrews 10:
9. then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.'' He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
13. from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

It was His humanity ("this Man") in living a perfect, sinless life in the flesh, that qualified Him to be the perfect sacrifice, and it was the shedding of His blood that cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Peace

[Phil12123]

Jesus himself said “The first of all the commandments is hear, O Israel the Lord our God is on Lord,” (Mark 12:29)

Where did the concept of trinity come from?

Trinity is not even mentioned in the Bible...

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible, but what it means is indeed taught in the Bible. The concept of trinity came from what the Bible teaches about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are called "God" in the Bible, and yet, the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So, the THREE are the ONE God. 3 in 1... tri - unity... trinity.

Jesus also said in John Chapter 5, verse 30.
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

but Him who sent me? How is this in anyway making Jesus God? and God Jesus?

When the Father sent the Son, the Son showed perfect submission and obedience to the Father. All the verses like John 5:30 merely show that. They show His humanity and His submission as the perfect Man to the Father. Those verses do not themselves establish that Jesus was not Deity, or God, in the flesh. Just as your son may be perfectly obedient to you, but that does not make him less human than you. His essence, substance, or nature is MAN, just like YOU. Not animal, or plant, or rock, or whatever, but MAN, just like you. Jesus, the Son of God, is Deity, just like His Father. Jesus just happens to be clothed in a body, one that is presently glorified and immortal, after His original body died for our sins.

Peace

[InToTheRain]

Muslim Convert, when you use the word mortal, you do understand that mortal refers to the death of the physical but not the spiritual, correct?

Your spirit survives death as well. What exactly, logically speaking, about Jesus being God and having a mortal body and an immortal spirit, are you having trouble with?

Thanks
Nimrod

Are you saying that anything that has a mortal body and an immortal spirit is a God?:?

[InToTheRain]

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible

Peace

Indeed it is not mentioned in the Bible which apparently is supposed to have bought the whole concept of trinity into existence! BUT GUESS WHAT! The Noble Qur'an mentions it, just another example of how Allah (SWT) tells us of things to come in the Qu'ran:

4:171 O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion nor speak anything about Allah, but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only a messenger of Allah and His word which He communicated to Mary and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory to have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as having charge of affairs.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

[InToTheRain]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

[Joe98]

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

It that quote, who is "the Son" ???

[InToTheRain]

It that quote, who is "the Son" ???

not 100% sure but I am 99% sure it is Jesus

[albee]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

Greetings;

Christians do beleieve in a Triune God, but logic alone will never prove that this is true. However, it is wise to reason from the Scriptures. Whilst the foundation of the Christian faith is Jesus, and He is only declared by this Name in the New Testament, both Jesus Himself and the writers of the N.T taught that He existed prior to His existence as a human being on this earth.

Jesus used the Old Testament to teach His disciples the truth concerning Himself, and whilst Christians today tend to emphasize the teachings of the N.T, WE CANNOT seperate it from the teachings in the Old Testament.

There are some major anomalies within the OT that only make sense when Jesus is brought into the equation.
Firstly, there is a plain teaching throughout both Old and New Testaments, that no man has seen God at any time and lived.
And yet, the Old Testament on numerous occasions declares that men DID see God. On some of these times, those people who had seen Him, were terrified that they would die, and could not beleive that they were still alive.

The question then arises; if it were impossible for them to see God and remain alive, but they had seen Him and still lived, then who had they actually seen?
Many of these occasions, it is the Angel of the LORD who had appeared to men.
Jacob wrestled with a Man, but then stated "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Genesis 32:30)
It seems as though Jacob knew that God had visited him as a Man.

Again, the Angel of the LORD appeared to Manoah and his wife. To begin with they thought it was a Man of God with the likeness of the Angel of God, but were afraid to ask His name, or where He came from. As soon as they knew that they had been in the prescence of the Angel of the LORD, THEY REALISED that they just seen God, and were afraid. (Judges 13:22 )
Who, then, was this Man that they came to realise was God?

PSALMS:2 declares that the LORD has a begotten Son and that we should serve the LORD with fear and also kiss (worship) the Son in case He get angry and we perish.
Who is this begotten Son of the LORD (JEHOVAH)??

Christians beleive that the Son of Jehovah in Psalms 2 is the Word who became flesh (Jesus)
Christians beleive that the Man, or Angel of the LORD who appeared to men of old, (and whom they decared to be God), was the Word who became flesh (Jesus).

In the book of the Prophet Zechariah ch. 2:10-11 it reads:

...." for behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, says the LORD...Then you will know that the LORD of Hosts has sent Me to you."

This verse is impossible to work out as it stands. For how can Jehovah send Jehovah? There are not 2 Jehovahs, yet it clearly states that it is the LORD who is coming to dwell with His people, and that He is being sent by the LORD.

Truly an enigma ! But the Christians beleive that in these verses, God the Father is sending God the Son.
Therfore, these old prophecies were being fulfilled when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
And this is why Jesus could say things like, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"
And why John could state " we have looked upon..and handled the Word.."

To sum up.
Men in the Old Testament came to the realization that seeing the Angel of the LORD was seeing God Himself.
Christians come to the realization that seeing who Jesus is, is to see Him as LORD and therefore recognize Him as God.


albee

[InToTheRain]

Hi Albee,

Jesus used the Old Testament to teach His disciples the truth concerning Himself, and whilst Christians today tend to emphasize the teachings of the N.T, WE CANNOT seperate it from the teachings in the Old Testament.

Maybe this wouldn't be the case had christians not constantly changed the words of god and contaminated with their own limited intelect. Why is it that christians claim it is the word of God who they agree is more superior in every way to anything in existence yet throw some verses or chapters of the bible and exchange it for their own comments. Why do they do this?

In Islam we have only one book which is the Holy Qur'an, it is the foundation for all our understanding and is 100% word of god.

Jacob wrestled with a Man, but then stated "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Genesis 32:30)
It seems as though Jacob knew that God had visited him as a Man.

Was Jacob preserved? he died didn't he? and if it means we will be preserved spritually (our souls) then is he implying that you have to see God to have your souls preserved? it doesn't make sense.

PSALMS:2 declares that the LORD has a begotten Son and that we should serve the LORD with fear and also kiss (worship) the Son in case He get angry and we perish.
Who is this begotten Son of the LORD (JEHOVAH)??

Your confusing me here, is he the son or God? which one please choose, it can't be both as it defies all reason.

Albee, I have told of one of the reason why trinity is false, and have given you evidence from the Bible, but now you are saying the bible conradicts itself by saying it also says Jesus is God. So the bible as it stands today is only there to confuse the christians with no clear answer is that what you are saying?

Here is another reason why I refuse trinity provided from the Bible itself:

Matthew 27: 46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani! My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you really believe he would call to himself while he was being prosecuted? Of course not, he was calling God. Secondly it also shows that Jesus under the context was Unwilling to go on the cross, are you saying that God is so unmerciful and unjust that he would punish and torture he beloved massenger for the sins of mankind?

Why do you have so much confusion and misinterpretaions in the Bible? one of the reasons I believe is because you are trying to translate it from another language in to english which is a poorly developed language. The english language originated in the 9th century... WAY WAaaaay after Jesus came with his revelations.

This begs the question, what words did they use to describe God. If you look at the old copies of the Bible in Greek form or Hebrew You will find Eli (Allah) bieng described as God. Even in the Torah Allah is refered to as God. This is so that We do not genderise God (as God has no Gender, he is Allah, the Unique, nothing similiar to him, you can compare nothing to him) Because God assumes a male God, Goddess a female god, GOdfather etc. Whereas the word Allah can never be Pluralised as it comes from Root word Ilahi which means The one.

[Phil12123]

The word "Trinity" is not mentioned in the Bible, but what it means is indeed taught in the Bible. The concept of trinity came from what the Bible teaches about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each are called "God" in the Bible, and yet, the Bible also teaches that there is only ONE God. So, the THREE are the ONE God. 3 in 1... tri - unity... trinity.

Indeed it is not mentioned in the Bible which apparently is supposed to have bought the whole concept of trinity into existence! BUT GUESS WHAT! The Noble Qur'an mentions it, just another example of how Allah (SWT) tells us of things to come in the Qu'ran:

4:171 O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion nor speak anything about Allah, but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only a messenger of Allah and His word which He communicated to Mary and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory to have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as having charge of affairs.

5:73 Certainly they disbelieve who say: Allah is the third of the three. And there is no God but One God. And if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement will surely befall such of them as disbelieve.

Sorry, BUT GUESS WHAT! The Quran doesn't mention the word "Trinity" either, unless you have other verses that do. The two verses you give do NOT mention the word "Trinity". True, the Quran teaches against the biblical teaching of the Trinity, which merely shows that that biblical teaching existed at the time of Muhammad and that he misunderstood it as much as all the Muslims on this board do today. I mean no disrespect by saying that, but it is true. The verse 4:171 says, "Allah is only one God." The Trinity does NOT teach that Allah is THREE Gods, so Muhammad obviously misunderstood it. Christianity has NEVER taught THREE GODS. How many times must we Christians keep saying that? The Mormons may believe that but true Christians have NEVER said that.

Again, verse 5:73 says, "And there is no God but One God." TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. All Christians believe that and have ALWAYS believed that. That quranic verse could just as well be a verse taken right out of Isaiah, like these:

Isaiah 44:
6. "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.
7. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them.
8. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.' ''

And all those verses merely show what Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL agree on---that there is only ONE God! And that is the "unity" part of the "tri + unity = trinity" equation. The question comes in the "tri" part, i.e., the nature of the THREE---God (the Father), Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible in different places calls each of them "God", hence trinity. The Quran calls only the first one "God" and teaches that Jesus is just a prophet, messenger, man, etc., not God. The Quran does mention the "holy spirit" but apparently that entity is just part of God and not a separate entity to make at least 2 if not 3.

Peace

[Phil12123]

The whole trinity concept does not have any reasoble ground, here is proof provided by the BIBLE that it does not exist.

Mark 13.32: "But of that day or that hour no man knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Now christians say that God is three things yet 1? explain please! 1+1+1 = 1?

Many christians have given me explanations such as saying "for example, I am a father, a son and a husband, therefore I am three things yet I am one, you see?"

BUT when I reply with
"but Mark 13:32 says that Jesus doesn't know what god knows therefore proving they are not the same, If you are a husband, a son and a father,then obviusly if, in this case, the son was told the secret then the father and husband would also know because they are the same person. But Jesus says he doesnt know what GOD knows."

So Mark 13:32 proves trinity is false.

Not really. All it proves is that when Jesus walked the earth in His humbled state, after He had "emptied Himself" (Phil 2:7, NASB), He did not know the day or hour when His Father would send Him back at His Second Coming, because that was a matter that His Father retained as His exclusive perogative and He, Jesus, submitted totally to the Father, even in that matter. It may be a self-imposed limitation, just as the Bible says of God, "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Hebrews 10:17). Can God forget our sins? If He wants to, and He is still God.

Or it may be similar to the different roles that husbands and wives have, where one has authority over the other in a certain area, not because the first is any more human than the other, but just because that is the way God has ordained it and so one yields to the other in accordance with that. Similarly, the Son yields to the Father in the matter of when the Father will send the Son back, etc., but that does not prove they don't both have the same essence, substance, or nature---Deity---any more than the husband and wife don't have the same essence, substance, or nature---human.

Peace

[i_m_tipu]

I fell annoying day by day to see people giving reference of bible

Many of the word of every version has some opposite word in the other version

It’s so confusing so mixed.

I fell very sorry for the follower of bible.

Now a day follower of the bible starting to believe only that word of bible
Which makes some of their(some releigious leaders/allahu alim) thought stand firm.

does not it says
they creating their own bible

[DigitalStorm82]

Respect others if you want them to respect you.

[InToTheRain]

Not really. All it proves is that when Jesus walked the earth in His humbled state, after He had "emptied Himself" (Phil 2:7, NASB).

I am confused by what you in all honesty. You say Jesus "Emtied himself"? what does that mean?
You say His father would send him back, therefore he is the son now which means he is not a God (because God is his father), am I correct? Which is Jesus, the Begotten Son of god, or God? he can't be both as it defies all rational explanation in trying to establish a relationship.

Why is it that jesus never says once in any of the Bibles "worship me" or "I am God"? Or do you think God plays games with us, hides the truth and puts in a form such that its hard to understand what he means.

If the christians truly believed the Bible is the word of God, why do they have so many version proliferated by Human words, what gives a human the right to change Gods words and challenge his supreme Intellect and understanding?

Or it may be similar to the different roles that husbands and wives have, where one has authority over the other in a certain area, not because the first is any more human than the other, but just because that is the way God has ordained it and so one yields to the other in accordance with that. Similarly, the Son yields to the Father in the matter of when the Father will send the Son back, etc., but that does not prove they don't both have the same essence, substance, or nature---Deity---any more than the husband and wife don't have the same essence, substance, or nature---human.

Peace

:? If you are saying the relationship between God and Jesus is similiar to that of two completely diffrent individuals (Husband and wife) then yes I agree, they are completely diffrent from one another. God can't be compared with anything, he is unique.

[InToTheRain]

[QUOTE=Phil12123;438571]Sorry, BUT GUESS WHAT! The Quran doesn't mention the word "Trinity" either, unless you have other verses that do. The two verses you give do NOT mention the word "Trinity". True, the Quran teaches against the biblical teaching of the Trinity, which merely shows that that biblical teaching existed at the time of Muhammad and that he misunderstood it as much as all the Muslims on this board do today. I mean no disrespect by saying that, but it is true. The verse 4:171 says, "Allah is only one God." The Trinity does NOT teach that Allah is THREE Gods, so Muhammad obviously misunderstood it. Christianity has NEVER taught THREE GODS. How many times must we Christians keep saying that? The Mormons may believe that but true Christians have NEVER said that.

Again, verse 5:73 says, "And there is no God but One God." TRUE, TRUE, TRUE. All Christians believe that and have ALWAYS believed that. That quranic verse could just as well be a verse taken right out of Isaiah, like these:

Isaiah 44:
6. "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God.
7. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them.

Thanks for the brining my attention to some beautiful verses in the Bible :brother:
Indeed there no God but Allah (SWT) and this verse proves there is only one God, not some one who conjures up a mental picture, he is not comparable to anything.

Jesus Never claimed to be God, and mentioned several times that he is a providing instructions as means to prepare yourself for your final destination to God, Here are some verse from the Bible to reflect upon:

"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."
Matthew.7:21

Peace.

[Joe98]

Indeed there no God but Allah and this verse proves there is only one God...

If there were a god his name would be "Mars". :)

[albee]

Greetings to you

Maybe this wouldn't be the case had christians not constantly changed the words of god and contaminated with their own limited intelect. Why is it that christians claim it is the word of God who they agree is more superior in every way to anything in existence yet throw some verses or chapters of the bible and exchange it for their own comments. Why do they do this?

It is true that Christians, as well as all mankind of any faith,have their own limited intelect. God wants us to understand what He teaches in His Word (the Bible), but without the God-given ability to reason, and comment on Scripture we would not understand the teaching.
A very simple example of what I mean is as follows.

In Isaiah 55:12, it is written "...the mountains and the hills shall break forth into singing before you, and all the trees of the fields shall clap their hands"

God never wanted us to take this literally, for to do so we would have to beleive that trees have hands. Therefore, God expects us to use our own reasoning and comments to understand the truth that He is saying, and by doing so, we understand this verse to mean "a coming time of such peace and joy, that the whole of creation exists in harmony together. A literal time of Paradise on earth" (my words).
I do not consider myself to be some great Bible scholar, but neither do I beleive that by using my own comments, I have "contaminated" Gods Truth with my "limited intelect"
This is a very basic example of why we use Bible verses, but put them into our own words at times. It does not take away the Truth, but opens up Truths teachings.

Was Jacob preserved? he died didn't he? and if it means we will be preserved spritually (our souls) then is he implying that you have to see God to have your souls preserved? it doesn't make sense.

Yes, Jacobs life was preserved at that time. Also, yes,the time came when Jacob was to die. My original point was that Jacob had seen a Man, who was the Angel of the LORD, and Jacob knew that he had actually seen God.
But, we also beleive that through his faith in God, Jacobs soul was preserved, although his physical body returned to the dust.

Your confusing me here, is he the son or God? which one please choose, it can't be both as it defies all reason.

I do understand your comment that it defies all reason. Again, to try and piut it simply.

My father is fully human.As a child I lived under his authority and In a sense I could say that my father is a greater man than myself. But in my humanity I am as FULLY HUMAN as my father.

We beleive that God is a Father, and He has a Son. By using the above reasoning (although poor), the Son of the Father is as FULLY GOD as His Father is.
I am as fully human as my father.We are both Human. Jesus is as fully God as His Father. They are BOTH God, but they are NOT two Gods

Albee, I have told of one of the reason why trinity is false, and have given you evidence from the Bible, but now you are saying the bible conradicts itself by saying it also says Jesus is God. So the bible as it stands today is only there to confuse the christians with no clear answer is that what you are saying?

I once disbelived the Trinity doctrine. And as no man could prove it to me then, I can not prove it to you now. I also used to think that the Bible contradicted itself. I no longer think that. I used to think that the Bible was confusing, and that Christians had no clear answers.
Now, I realise that I was happy to think that the Bible contradicted itself, for that gave me some justification for my unbeleif in Christ.
I now realise that it was myself who was confused with no clear answers. My own pride and arrogance. My own inner resentment of being told i needed Gods forgiveness. My own mockery of Jesus Christ, each time I abused His name.
All these things kept me in darkness, and it was only as I gradually accepted that I was wrong that the Truth of Scripture started to become clear (or maybe it was the other way round).
The Trinity concept is still a mystery to me, but I have still come to beleive it, as the Truth in the Bible has been made clearer to me. It is something that we Christians beleive to be true, but it remains beyond our human comprehension.

Here is another reason why I refuse trinity provided from the Bible itself:

Matthew 27: 46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani! My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Do you really believe he would call to himself while he was being prosecuted? Of course not, he was calling God. Secondly it also shows that Jesus under the context was Unwilling to go on the cross, are you saying that God is so unmerciful and unjust that he would punish and torture he beloved massenger for the sins of mankind?

Jesus was calling upon His Father. This has to be true, because Jesus always refferred to His Father as being God. But by making this claim, and using the illustration that I have previously used, Jesus, the Son of God was as fully God as His Father is. Do not be mistaken that we beleive this was one God calling upon another God. It was the Son calling upon His Father. And Jesus Himself claimed that He and the Father were ONE. And that the Father dwelt in the Son, and the Son dwelt in the Father.
The work done on the Cross was a Sacred Work The Son was fulfilling the Fathers will. It was the Son who gave His life as a ransom for many. Because He had come from Heaven and taken the form of a man, it was in the context of being a Man, that Jesus stuggled to accept that He was going to be tortured and crucified. But as the Son of the Father, He was also intent upon doing His Fathers will.
The fact that Jesus cried out " Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!" goes beyond our understanding, for in this Sacred Moment in history, in a way we do not grasp, the Father withdrew His Prescence from His Son. For the only time in Eternity the Son was completely alone,and facing the jaws of death.
Is there any wonder He called out these words with a loud voice? This was His experience of complete and utter solitude and desertion. This is why our Bible teaches that God understands every human experience, and that Jesus has been tempted in every possible way that anyone of us can be tempted.

In answer to the part highlighted in red:

Nowhere does the Bible teach that God punished His Messenger.What it does teach is that it was men who claimed to beleive in the Almighty, but did not beleive that Jesus was who He said He was that called for Him to be punished and crucified.
I wonder if you or I (who did not once beleive that Jesus is the Christ) would have also called for His crucifixion had we been living in those days?
For the Bible gives a bigger picture. It is a disturbing one, for it shows that every one of us is and was partly responsible for the death of Jesus.
The men that had held Jesus captive, blinfolded Him, started hitting Him aroound the face, and then taunted Him by asking " if you are the Christ, then prophecy and tell us which one of us has smote (hit) you."

Jesus did not answer them. But He didnt have to, because many years previuos isaiah had already prophecied that "He was wounded for our transgressions and He was bruised for our iniquities"
We were the reason Jesus was beaten and put to death, not just those who carried out the actual act.

Please do not put words into my mouth, by inferring that I suggest God is unmerciful and unjust.
It is because God is pure in His justice, that on the Day of Judgement His Justice will sentence all men. He has declared His hatred for sin. He has decalred that all sinners will be punished . As we have all sinned, Christian and Muslim alike, we will all come under Divine Justice. There is no escape (or is there?) The only JUST JUDGE will not let some off at the expense of others (for that would be unjust). We can do nothing in this life to "earn" any rights to be let off.
But it is because God is All- Merciful that He has implemented a Way for us to escape His Divine Justice. His own Son died for our sins, and if we beleive this and ask Gods forgiveness He will IMMEDIATELY forgive us. Because He is Just, He will not judge us for the things that His Son has already given His life for.
This is what people cannot grasp. That because God is so merciful, and loves us so much, He gave His Son to die for our sins, so that He would NOT have to Judge us. Our sins have already been dealt with because Jesus gave up His life and shed His own Blood.
This is Gods way of letting us escape from the Judgement that lies ahead.





Albee

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

as always a chritian and a muslim perception of how to view words in the Bible and the quran is differnt.

Muslims take it literally and we have an explanation for why when and howe every verse came to be.

But from albee reply it is clear that albee chooses to explain it in a differnt way that suit albee.

Albee is not special nor unique,as the bible that has been chaged so many times so has the itnerpretations.

in the Past ,crusaders and marauding murderer who burn women at the stake,behead mena dn womena and murder people for their heresy is the CHRISITAN Thing to do.
but in the current explanation of chrisitanity,it is all about love.
and albee say that men take time to interpret god word to its original meaning,for we are given god intellect...
but then agian,it can be said that they intepret it to suit their desire.

so ask yourself,a Holy Book that does not chage or one that changes with the times?

[InToTheRain]

Hi Albee,

Greetings to you
This is a very basic example of why we use Bible verses, but put them into our own words at times. It does not take away the Truth, but opens up Truths teachings.

Not only have man changed Gods wording for their own, but they have added new passages/verses making the whole BIble contradict it self. It is now full of lies and can't stand to the truth/facts doscovered to date as said by your Biblical theoligans and many others.

I can prove this if you want, just let me know if you do but there are plenty of sources on the internet for regarding this.

Yes, Jacobs life was preserved at that time. Also, yes,the time came when Jacob was to die. My original point was that Jacob had seen a Man, who was the Angel of the LORD, and Jacob knew that he had actually seen God.
But, we also beleive that through his faith in God, Jacobs soul was preserved, although his physical body returned to the dust.

But Albee, I thought everyones soul is Preserved? In Islam everyones soul is preserved, thats why there is eternal Heaven or hell. We dont have to see God to have our souls preserved so why say this? WHy would Jacob say Because he saw God his soul will be preserved when we know that everyones soul is preserved?

My father is fully human.As a child I lived under his authority and In a sense I could say that my father is a greater man than myself. But in my humanity I am as FULLY HUMAN as my father.

I know what you are trying to say, But it is still two completely diffrent individuals. In your anlogy if you live Under some one you admit there is some one else other then you which means there are 2 not 1.

We beleive that God is a Father, and He has a Son. By using the above reasoning (although poor), the Son of the Father is as FULLY GOD as His Father is.
I am as fully human as my father.We are both Human. Jesus is as fully God as His Father. They are BOTH God, but they are NOT two Gods

When you say they are both Gods you automatically say there are two biengs, therefore it irrational to say that Jesus and God are 1.

In answer to the part highlighted in red:

Nowhere does the Bible teach that God punished His Messenger.What it does teach is that it was men who claimed to beleive in the Almighty, but did not beleive that Jesus was who He said He was that called for Him to be punished and crucified.

This is what people cannot grasp. That because God is so merciful, and loves us so much, He gave His Son to die for our sins, so that He would NOT have to Judge us. Our sins have already been dealt with because Jesus gave up His life and shed His own Blood.
This is Gods way of letting us escape from the Judgement that lies ahead.
Albee

Im confused about the letter in Bold, Did God punish Jesus by giving his son to die or not? Why did God allow Jesus to be crucified by those man so that the sins of those man who dare to crucify him are forgiven? And if our sin is already dealt with as you say does that mean all will go to heaven regardless of what they do? Doesn't that mean we can do as we wish? If we will not be Judged doesn't that mean there is no accountability for our actions?

To allow one to think he will not be held accountable for his actions, and if one has firm belief in this, it can have dangerous consequences and I dont see how this is Justice.


I would like your sincere answers to these questions:

If Jesus is considered son of god why don't you consider Adam as his son? Adam was a greater miracle, a woman wasn't necessary to bear and ween him. Also since Jesus was son of Mary, doesn't that mean Mary is a Goddess, or wife of a God? and that God is a Man? so shoudn't you worship Mary also?

I would like to say no muslim is a muslim unless he loves Jesus and he is one of the greatest Prophets, I would like your opinion on what you agree and disagree with what Islam says about Jesus on the link provided below:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~asmaaza...t_in_islam.htm

and would like you to answer sincerely What is it about Islam you disagree with?

An example of our beloved Jesus in the Quran:

Qur'an 5:116-120 Surah Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)
And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men 'worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them anything except what Thou didst command me to say to wit 'Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them they are Thy servants: if Thou dost forgive them Thou art the Exalted the Wise.
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens with rivers flowing beneath their eternal home: Allah well-pleased with them and they with Allah: that is the great Salvation (the fulfillment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and it is He who hath power over all things.

[AvarAllahNoor]

If there were a god his name would be "Mars". :)

They renamed it 'Believe' over the world cup season didnt they? OMG!!

'Bows down' :giggling:

[dougmusr]

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

In the above verse, God asks Christ if He claimed He and Mary should be worshipped as Gods. The verse says "AND" not "OR", so if either or both of them are not Gods, then the verse has to be answered with a no, even if one of them is God. So this verse can not be used as to refute Christs diety. And even so, Christ never taught, as the verse agrees, that one should worship Christ in derogation of Allah. If Christ is God, then worshipping Him does not derrogate God.

The Quran is full of verses which make errant claims about Christians. This is one such verse. If you can find any authoritative Christian source that maintains Mary is God, please provide a link or reference to it. If you can't, then perhaps the Quran is in error, and if one part is in error, all is suspect.

[جوري]

I don't see how the Quran is Wrong or erroneous?....... I went to catholic school and I have seen people pray to "Mary mother of God"..... so what does that mean?
"Oh holy Mary dear mother of God Please pray for us sinners Now and at the hour of our death And ..." why do you need Mary to pray for you?
Why do you need to do it through Christ or a priest? Why do you exalt people to saint like status? Who wrote the principles on those things ... anyhow I don't want to assume you are catholic... I believe the reformation came about to change some of that ......I don't to this day understand why one would go to a priest who might or might not be a pious man to be absolved from sin? ... or pray to any other than God directly, praying (to) or (through) anyone other than God directly is taking someone else to partner with him… It is clear to the naked eye.... unless you offer a valid religious reasoning that states otherwise... I believe neither Mary nor Jesus (PBUT) have asked for.....

[searchingsoul]

The Quran is full of verses which make errant claims about Christians. This is one such verse. If you can find any authoritative Christian source that maintains Mary is God, please provide a link or reference to it. If you can't, then perhaps the Quran is in error, and if one part is in error, all is suspect.

Dougmusr makes a good point. I think that the entire Quran is in error but when descrepancies such as this are brought to my attention, it makes me (from a Christian perspective) believe that the Quran isn't infalliable.

I can understand why muslims believe Christianity is invalid due to the verses being translated differently , or even changed throughout history. I think it's equally important for muslims to understand why Christians have a hard time believing the Quran valid since it doesn't always depict Christianity correctly.

[جوري]

How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...

[Jayda]

Well if this is true, then there is no ultimate sacrifice. If the soul part lived forever, and is immortal, but the man part is mortal and died, then ultimately what "Died for your sins" is an empty human body.

Hola MC,

I do not know very much about this but I will still try to answer... I do not think the Bible tells us much about the nature of Jesus... like how he can be divine and still human and everything... it just tells us that he is these things. So... maybe you are asking for a logical answer to something that logic doesn't apply to?

Like the New Testament says that Jesus is the Son of God, and is One with him... and it also says that he died and was dead and then resurrected... so I think maybe you just have to believe it... and if you don't then it won't make any sense?

Like what your signature says...

[Jayda]

How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...

I read the koran... I do not think it really depicts Christianity correctly... or consistently. I don't really have examples off the top of my head but that was one of the things I left with after I read it... but that is okay because I don't think that was really the point of it anyway...

We do not pray to Mary... and we do not pray to Saints, we ask for intercession with Saints and Mary because they were great and pious people and if we do not feel worthy to talk to God we ask those more worthy to talk to him on our behalf... but we do not worship them we do not believe they have any authority over things like God does.

So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...

Gracias

[searchingsoul]

How does the Quran not depict Christianity correctly?
No one has yet addressed why people pray to Mary or Jesus or where in the bible it states to pray through or to Mary or Jesus?... why would Christians pray to someone other than God and call it monotheism? how should Non Christians interpret that? It is good to be able to write your opinion but it is also good to be able to stand by it with some proof...

I was referring to the quote and comment from dougmusr. Christians do not believe that they worship Jesus or Mary. This is an islamic belief.

I'm not the best one to answer your questions because I'm not catholic.

[جوري]

I read the koran... I do not think it really depicts Christianity correctly... or consistently. I don't really have examples off the top of my head but that was one of the things I left with after I read it... but that is okay because I don't think that was really the point of it anyway...

We do not pray to Mary... and we do not pray to Saints, we ask for intercession with Saints and Mary because they were great and pious people and if we do not feel worthy to talk to God we ask those more worthy to talk to him on our behalf... but we do not worship them we do not believe they have any authority over things like God does.

So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...

Gracias

interesting... was that a request from any saint or (Jesus/ Mary) for you to do? if you don't feel worthy you need to pray through us so we may intercede on your behalf? I think you should refresh your Quranic skills if you are going to bring it to the table as a valid point of discussion, otherwise it is subjective view and ultimately inconsequential, installed in a sentence for a clear psychological purpose of soliciting reaction ....

[searchingsoul]

So I would say to answer your question how should non Christians interpret this, that non Christians should not think that we think Mary or the Saints are equal to God, we don't worship them, and our prayers are for God... but we ask that Saints or Mary deliver them on our behalf because sometimes we do not feel worthy to ask God directly...

Gracias

Thanks for this explanation Jayda. This sounds very humbling.

[Jayda]

interesting... was that a request from any saint or (Jesus/ Mary) for you to do? if you don't feel worthy you need to pray through us so we may intercede on your behalf? I think you should refresh your Quranic skills if you are going to bring it to the table as a valid point of discussion, otherwise it is subjective view and ultimately inconsequential, installed in a sentence for a clear psychological purpose of soliciting reaction ....

I'm sorry I offended you... I was just relating what I thought... Maybe this was a bad idea

[جوري]

I was referring to the quote and comment from dougmusr. Christians do not believe that they worship Jesus or Mary. This is an islamic belief.

I'm not the best one to answer your questions because I'm not catholic.

Some Christian prayer and actions can only be interpreted as worshipping other than God especially when neither party (Jesus/Mary) had asked directly to be a source of intercession or an absolving medium between wo/Man and his/her God... That is the Islamic perspective... everyone is free to worship as they please no one is persecuting anyone for what they think is a wrong form of prayer.... but that is how it is plainly seen to the naked eye....

[جوري]

I'm sorry I offended you... I was just relating what I thought... Maybe this was a bad idea

No it wasn't and you didn't offend me... but I think if we are to have a "comparitive religion" dialogue... that we should bring what we think is in error to the table and discuss it as to ward off myth and enhance understanding... I was going to leave you +ve feedback actually for a good effort at explaining the Christian perspective....

[searchingsoul]

Some Christian prayer and actions can only be interpreted as worshipping other than God especially when neither party (Jesus/Mary) had asked directly to be a source of intercession or an absolving medium between wo/Man and his/her God... That is the Islamic perspective... everyone is free to worship as they please no one is persecuting anyone for what they think is a wrong form of paryer.... but that is how it is plainly seen to the naked eye....

Why do muslims choose to believe that christians worship Jesus and/or Mary even when christians explicitly state that they do not?

Do muslims think that christians are lying about their form of worship?

[Jayda]

Okay... well sorry... I think maybe I'll just stay away from this area until I know a little bit more... I get very uncomfortable about these kinds of discussions anyway...

[جوري]

Okay... well sorry... I think maybe I'll just stay away from this area until I know a little bit more... I get very uncomfortable about these kinds of discussions anyway...

No .. please don't be uncomfy... I did in fact leave you +ve feedback... I hope that will interest you in participating more:?

[جوري]

Why do muslims choose to believe that christians worship Jesus and/or Mary even when christians explicitly state that they do not?

Do muslims think that christians are lying about their form of worship?

we are not sure how else to intrpret God taking a son....anthropmorphism is strictly frowned upon... it makes God maybe more easy to understand... maybe more human like.... to us that is idolatry.... other than that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet from God and we make no distinctions between his messaners... nor do we mock or ridicule him... which is actually quite common amongst Christians as a way to attack Islam...
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256

Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84

For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48

Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13

[searchingsoul]

we are not sure how else to intrpret God taking a son....anthropmorphism is strictly frowned upon... it makes God maybe more easy to understand... maybe more human like.... to us that is idolatry.... other than that Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet from God and we make no distinctions between his messaners... nor do we mock or ridicule him... which is actually quite common amongst Christians as a way to attack Islam...
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256

Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84

For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48

Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13

By refusing to acknowlege the christian claim that they do not worship Jesus or Mary, muslims are using their interpretation of christianity to form their beliefs about christians/christianity. Muslims are of course free to interpret christianity in any manner they see fit. Personally, when a muslim makes these claims, failing to recognize the christian stance, I don't find their information credible.

For example, when christians base their beliefs concerning Islam without regard to muslim interpretation of Islam, I find them to lack credibility as well. There are numerous Islamic beliefs, as stated by some christians, which I've found to be untrue. Examples would include the topics of virgins for martyrs, wife beating, islamic divorce, female covering, etc. When these topics are presented by christians (with only a christian understanding) they seem horrific. But whenever a christian reads about these topics, open to the islamic interpretation, the topics don't seem oppressive or all that radical.

[جوري]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

[searchingsoul]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

They do believe that he is the son of God. This enters the subject of trinity, which should be understood from a Christian perspective (since it's a Christian belief).

I understand that muslims don't have to accept the trinity for themselves. But if they wish to understand christianity, they need to understand the trinity from a christian perspective. Don't muslims want Islam to be understood from a muslim perspective?

[جوري]

Frankly ... personally I couldn't care less what people believe or don't of Islam or any theological topic....it is inconsequential....... It doesn't affect my life in any way ... there will always be people who will dislike you for your origin, your religion, your gender or whatever.... it is good to exercise some emotional intelligence unless you are a politician and this is your livelihood? in which case it would be prudent to develop some thick skin and firmly believe in what you are taking about ... if it is outside your sphere of knowledge then I think the noble thing to do is to admit so and not engage in a sensitive topic ... other than that I am not sure what is so enigmatic and can only be understood by a "Christian" perspective as Jesus being the "Son of God" doesn't appear as deep the as the mysteries of the hippocampus...... when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

[searchingsoul]

Frankly ... personally I couldn't care less what people believe or don't of Islam or any theological topic....it is inconsequential....... It doesn't affect my life in any way ... there will always be people who will dislike you for your origin, your religion, your gender or whatever.... it is good to exercise some emotional intelligence unless you are a politician and this is your livelihood? in which case it would be prudent to develop some thick skin and firmly believe in what you are taking about ... if it is outside your sphere of knowledge then I think the noble thing to do is to admit so and not engage in a sensitive topic ... other than that I am not sure what is so enigmatic and can only be understood by a "Christian" perspective as Jesus being the "Son of God" doesn't appear as deep the as the mysteries of the hippocampus...... when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

I completely disagree. Failure to understand other religions comes with consequences, which could include war, discrimination, etc. I find this to be of significant importance, especially since we have global economies.

There will always be people who dislike us out of ignorance, and unwilliingness to understand people different than themselves. A world with less hate and more tolerance would be a much better place, according to many.

Are you saying that the lack of understanding people have about Islam doesn't personally affect you? If this is the case, I'm very glad for you. I hear many Muslims cite examples of discrimination due to lack of Islamic understanding. Even if you are not affected, don't you want other Muslims to face less discrimination?

[جوري]

I completely disagree. Failure to understand other religions comes with consequences, which could include war, discrimination, etc. I find this to be of significant importance, especially since we have global economies.

There will always be people who dislike us out of ignorance, and unwilliingness to understand people different than themselves. A world with less hate and more tolerance would be a much better place, according to many.

Are you saying that the lack of understanding people have about Islam doesn't personally affect you? If this is the case, I'm very glad for you. I hear many Muslims cite examples of discrimination due to lack of Islamic understanding. Even if you are not affected, don't you want other Muslims to face less discrimination?

I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have...I don't disagree that we should have open dialogue, hence we are here typing this... if it can't be done in a civilized manner citing legitimate sources then there is no point... there is no point in saying I read the Quran and it is wrong unless you wish to discuss it point by point, and call upon scholars and people of understanding to help with your dialogue... I don't enjoy wrangling and the "God is bigger than Allah bit" as I see repeatedly websites popping faster than you can microwave popcorn.... yes! it is a waste of my time... people need political and hate sites... it is a choice which I can't hope to combat in my one woman crusade... my closest and best of friend is Christian... I try to abridge the Gap... I accept that there are things that I simply can't change... the belief in Jesus as the son of God is one of them... I don't see why I should really? it hasn't affected my relationships otherwise... although with my friend I am always interested in probing to open the door, an invitation to Islam... because I do care not because I wish to ridicule Christian beliefs.
Do I want other Muslims to face less discrimination? you bet! I'd like to stop hunger and end disease, illegal occupations, homelessness, insensible death from violent gang and street crimes... but I can't... It is wonderful to write your thoughts down and share but one would be deluding oneself if one thought it is going to cause a dramatic change in the world... It is more of a psychological fulfillment in the least... a way to sincere learning at most... but of the most we can't always hope for though we try....
peace and glad to see you back on board.......

[searchingsoul]

[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;457224]I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have
QUOTE]
Your failure to acknowledge that fact that Christians state that they do not worship Jesus and Mary appears to be failure to understand other religions.

Do you want non-muslims to understand Islam from the Islamic viewpoint or the non-muslim viewpoint?

[S]Do I want other Muslims to face less discrimination? you bet! I'd like to stop hunger and end disease, illegal occupations, homelessness, insensible death from violent gang and street crimes... but I can't... It is wonderful to write your thoughts down and share but one would be deluding oneself if one thought it is going to cause a dramatic change in the world... It is more of a psychological fulfillment in the least... a way to sincere learning at most... but of the most we can't always hope for though we try....[/S]

I don't think that anyone is capable of "changing the world" by themself. I do think that many of today's problems can be gradually changed by education and a concentrated effort to learn about other people. I don't see how such education would be classified as "psychological fulfillment". I see it as being a means to become less egocentric, not the opposite.

[جوري]

hmmmmmmmn... I know lots of catholics who have told me they worship jesus their lord... so it is your word against theirs... I do acknowledge that there are different sects in christianity as there are in Islam... I don't think you are qualifed by virtue of being christian to speak for all christians???.... Again do I want Christians to understand Islam from an Islamic perspective... absolutely... but if they don't or won't it doesn't matter... should it?by the way the red color doesn't stand out more for me... it makes my eyes water... sort of like yelling at someone who doesn't speak English...

[Skillganon]

[QUOTE=searchingsoul;457248]

I don't see how I fail to understand other religions? please point out to me where I have
QUOTE]
Your failure to acknowledge that fact that Christians state that they do not worship Jesus and Mary appears to be failure to understand other religions.

Do you want non-muslims to understand Islam from the Islamic viewpoint or the non-muslim viewpoint?

Why not try to understand christianity from what the bible say.

Why not understand Islam from what their scripture say.

Otherwise someone might tell you something that may be contrary to what the scripture say.

I read the bible to understand it. Ponder on it, and seek christian opinion on it, and see if it is true according to the whole scriptures, if I find something contrary to what they say than it is matter for them to wonder.

[therebbe]

I read the bible to understand it. Ponder on it, and seek christian opinion on it

There are many different opinions and commentaries on single verses. What you should seek out is the view point of the religion on that verse, not just th verse itself.

[searchingsoul]

hmmmmmmmn... I know lots of catholics who have told me they worship jesus their lord... so it is your word against theirs... I do acknowledge that there are different sects in christianity as there are in Islam... I don't think you are qualifed by virtue of being christian to speak for all christians???.... Again do I want Christians to understand Islam from an Islamic perspective... absolutely... but if they don't or won't it doesn't matter... should it?by the way the red color doesn't stand out more for me... it makes my eyes water... sort of like yelling at someone who doesn't speak English...

Don't take the red personally PurestAmbrosia. I simply used it to separate your quote from my response, when I failed to capture the quote correctly.:)

I don't claim to represent all Christians. Yes, I believe you when you say that some Catholics may state that they worship Jesus, but this is through the concept of the trinity. I'm not asking you to accept the trinity, just to acknowledge that it exists in Christianity (if you wish to be afforded the same mutual respect from Christians).

This is the quote presented by Dougmusr:

[MOUSE]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [/MOUSE]
Clearly, it is suggesting that Christians worship Jesus AND Mary. We can leave the Jesus worshipping alone. Let's concentrate on the fact that it suggests that Mary is worshipped. I doubt that you will find a Christian that will agree that Mary is worshiped. In this case, I think it is fair to say that Christians unanimously will disagree on how they are being portrayed in the Quran. What do you think?

[جوري]

[MOUSE]And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [/MOUSE]
Clearly, it is suggesting that Christians worship Jesus AND Mary. We can leave the Jesus worshipping alone. Let's concentrate on the fact that it suggests that Mary is worshipped. I doubt that you will find a Christian that will agree that Mary is worshiped. In this case, I think it is fair to say that Christians unanimously will disagree on how they are being portrayed in the Quran. What do you think?

let's take my leb friend Cl****, who is a lebanese Maronite.... when C's mother died he started praying through her... that constitutes associating partners unto God... you may say that he isn't worshipping her per se but to pray to someone which was the term he used, can only be interpreted this way, that is what God says in His own words... if you don't pray to him directly you are associating partners unto him... you can do it through Jesus, Mary or my friend's mother whose name was Dorya.... we are told it is is clearly "shirk" associating partners unto God. Taking refuge in someone other than God.... wishing someone else would intercede other than God directly... elevating someone to God like status.....Do I hate any of my friends? absolutely not... I might feel that it is the wrong way to pray... it isn't in concert with my beliefs, I feel sad and think they have strayed from the teachings of Jesus... but that doesn't mean that I don't believe that trinity or sainthood doesn't "exist" my friends exist and so do their beliefs... I can only invite them to Islam if they show interest... I don't impose my beliefs on them but I strongly oppose that as a way to pray, I strongly oppose praying through Mary mother of God or Jesus our lord.... because neither is true to me... I understand it is true to some 2 billion Christians give or take but it isn't the truth to some 1.5 billion Muslims.... Anymore than the Muslims who go in the wrong direction around the Kaaba and think they are making pilgrimage... you might think what is the harm in that? My answer would be I honestly don't know... it isn't the way we are told to make pilgrimage, we are to follow the path that God assigned not the one of People's whims because they felt they can interpret something differently... I don't believe that Jesus nor Mary Peace be Upon them said... please pray through me, I'll intercede for you.... "O Lord Jesus Christ, Who showest forth Thy omnipotence most manifestly when Thou sparest and give compassion" that to me isn't prayer to God but to Jesus and this right here should really seal the deal with what some think of Mary "Hail Mary Most Holy, Beloved Daughter of God the Father" "Hail Mary Most Holy, Most Faithful Spouse of the Holy Ghost" "Hail Mary Most Holy, Temple and Sacrarium of the Most Holy Trinity. " Daughter of God the Father,
Hail Mary! Mother of God the Son,
Hail Mary! Spouse of God the Holy Ghost,
Hail Mary! Temple of the Most Blessed Trinity,
Hail Mary! Celestial Rose of the ineffable love of God
she is a daughter of God and a mother of God and a wife to the holy ghost? what does that make her?now come again and tell me how the Quran is wrong when the above quotes are a clear indication of otherwise?
thank you

[searchingsoul]

[/B]now come again and tell me how the Quran is wrong when the above quotes are a clear indication of otherwise?
thank you

The specific Quranic verse mentioned will be considered inaccurate by Christians, since they do not feel that associated partners with God is actually praying to God.

But I do believe I'm starting to understand why Muslims feel that Christians do worship Jesus and Mary. :) Thanks for your explanation.

I believe you stated that you personally don't care how non-muslims view Islam, so this will be directed toward those on this forum who do care.

1. Do you understand why it would be difficult for Christians to find the Quran valid, since they do not view themselves as worshipping Jesus and/or Mary? They will feel that Christianity isn't portrayed correctly within the Quran, so it must be an invalid book?

[dougmusr]

when we ask for clarification on why Christians think he is indeed the son of God we are looking for biblical sources not the "faith" matter... it isn't a good substitute ... if it can't be argued from the good book then at this moment we are all interpreting from our own subjective view or the subjective views of our elders who were none the wiser? What would be the point in that?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The above verses are from the Bible, which I assume you are referring to as the good book. This verse explicitly indicates that a son will be born. This son is so unique that He will be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father", and He will assume the throne of David. There are several possibilities. You can deny the verse exists in the original manuscripts, you can say the people calling this son "Eternal Father, Mighty God" are blaspheming and this is a reference to the antichrist, or you can accept it.

[Skillganon]

There are many different opinions and commentaries on single verses. What you should seek out is the view point of the religion on that verse, not just th verse itself.

Sometime it is better to concentrate on the whole paragraph or chapter than just the single verse, as it sometime clarifies what it mean's.

THe reason to seek out their opinion of the religion, is out of respect and to see what they say hold any truth. Does it make sense, and or by taking other verses or statement into account does it make sense.

Sometime people do lot of acrobatic to make sense out of certain verse to themselve so it does not oppose their dogmatic belief when something is found contrary to what they been told.

[جوري]

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The above verses are from the Bible, which I assume you are referring to as the good book. This verse explicitly indicates that a son will be born. This son is so unique that He will be called "Mighty God, Eternal Father", and He will assume the throne of David. There are several possibilities. You can deny the verse exists in the original manuscripts, you can say the people calling this son "Eternal Father, Mighty God" are blaspheming and this is a reference to the antichrist, or you can accept it.

yes that is what I was referring to as the good book from which these passages also come
In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David:

"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."

Does this mean that God had two sons? Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48). Luke 3:38 says:

"...Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God."

Who is mentioned in Hebrews 7:3 as like unto the Son of God? It is Melchisedec, King of Salem, as mentioned in Hebrews 7:1. He (Melchisedec) is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not preferred to be the Son of God? Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

[searchingsoul]

I've been told repeatedly that in order to understand Islam, I have to study the opinions of Islamic scholars. I accept this suggestion. I think the same is true with Christianity (or any other religion). In order for us to understand a religion, we need to examine the opinions of the religious scholars for that religion.

This of course doesn't mean that we don't have free will to interepret as wish. Of course I know that to be true for Protestant Christians, but not other faiths.

[Skillganon]

Tru, that's why it is also prudent to ask where does it say that in your scripture. Also check if their opinion conflict with what the rest of the scripture say. This take time and study.

[dougmusr]

Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

[Skillganon]

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

LOL. :D

Try Human. "Son of Man" (Mannkind) Human being.

[جوري]

Actually, since you are asking my thoughts, Christ according to the Quran and the Bible had an earthly mother. What does the Quran say about His genetic roots? Was He part Mary?

Are you a part of your mother? ... I am not sure what you are asking otherwise? about morulas gastrulas and zygotes? your mother gave a single cell, as did your dad... and the rest was up to God!

[dougmusr]

Christ claimed to be God's Son and Lord here.

Mt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '? 45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

He made it clear in this parable that God sent prophets with the message, and finally His Son.

Mt 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 "Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 "And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 "Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 "Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

[dougmusr]

Are you a part of your mother? ... I am not sure what you are asking otherwise? about morulas gastrulas and zygotes? your mother gave a single cell, as did your dad... and the rest was up to God!

So who did Christs male genetics come from?

[جوري]

So who did Christs male genetics come from?

surely you have heard of Asexual reproduction? as an option.... but we are told in order for something to happen all God has to say is be and it shall be!... anything else would really be bordering upon sacrilegious so I'd choose the question wisely!

[ACC]

That answer is not satisfactory but w/e floats your boat.

Why would God want to be man to begin with?
What did he have to be "born?"
Why was he "crucified?" Couldnt he destroy the Romans if he wished?

Why would any sane man believe a human is the son of God? if I said I was the son of God, would you beieve me. It's true that he made miracles, but so did Moses and Jacob.

I respect your faith, but sometimes it disturbs me when Christians cannot explain the ogic behind their beliefs.

Peace.

Part of the problem is that it isnt logical to you because you choose not to accept it as truth. Islam is not the truth to me, so our logic will be different.

[dougmusr]

surely you have heard of Asexual reproduction? as an option.... but we are told in order for something to happen all God has to say is be and it shall be!... anything else would really be bordering upon sacrilegious so I'd choose the question wisely!

So if Christ had an earthly mother, was miraculously conceived, was called the Messiah, was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, was taken up by God, and is going to return to judge mankind according to the Quran, how can it claim that it makes no distinction between the prophets?

[جوري]

So if Christ had an earthly mother, was miraculously conceived, was called the Messiah, was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, was taken up by God, and is going to return to judge mankind according to the Quran, how can it claim that it makes no distinction between the prophets?

I am not sure I understand the question? this is falling along the lines of the other thread when the poster wanted to know what anointed meant... when offered an explanation he didn't like it... there had to be something deep and mystical.... What distinction are you looking for exactly? that is what it states in the Quran [Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
God favors no one except by degree of piety........ many of his messangers preformed miracles... why would we come and make a distinction?

[searchingsoul]

If Christ is believed to have no earthly father, is he considered to be fully human?

[جوري]

If Christ is believed to have no earthly father, is he considered to be fully human?

Yes Human, but a human who is chosen to deliver God's message....

[dougmusr]

I am not sure I understand the question? this is falling along the lines of the other thread when the poster wanted to know what anointed meant... when offered an explanation he didn't like it... there had to be something deep and mystical.... What distinction are you looking for exactly? that is what it states in the Quran [Yusufali 2:285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
God favors no one except by degree of piety........ many of his messangers preformed miracles... why would we come and make a distinction?

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

[Woodrow]

you mean to tell me that Christians DON'T believe in Jesus as the son of God and is part divine?? that is news to me... thanks for clarfying that....

Believe it or not there are a number of non-trinitarian Christian denominations.
who do not believe I'sa(a.s.) was the son of God (swt) The best known ones are:

Jehovah Witnesses

Mormans

Adventist (largest group being seventh day adventists)

Unitarian (not all Unitarian denominations)

Surprisingly most of them are further from Islam then the Trinitarian Christians are.

[جوري]

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

I don't understand this quote of yours "then it has made a very clear distinction between them"... when I have just quoted you a verse from the Quran stating there is no difference or distinction between them......?
Jesus had unique qualities it is true... some are not even known to you or maybe they are but not of christian scriptures unless you can point me to otherwise... but clearly Prophet Jesus (PBUH) spoke at birth... it was one of his miracles....فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا {27}
[Pickthal 19:27] Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا {28}
[Pickthal 19:28] O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا {29}
[Pickthal 19:29] Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا {30}
[Pickthal 19:30] He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا {31}
[Pickthal 19:31] And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا {32}
[Pickthal 19:32] And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا {33}
[Pickthal 19:33] Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

ذَلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ {34}
[Pickthal 19:34] Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ سُبْحَانَهُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ {35}
[Pickthal 19:35] It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ {36}
[Pickthal 19:36] And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.........
clearly if God wanted to hide something about Jesus being special he wouldn't have given us a whole chapter about his life.... There are chapters of others... like Jonas, Hud, Joseph,Abraham, Mary, Luqman just to name a few... other than that I am not sure I understand your question:?

[Woodrow]

The other thread was closed before I could respond, as I was the one asking the question about the meaning of the Messiah. The way I see it, if the Quran indicates Christ was unique among prophets in all of these ways, then it has made a very clear distinction between them.

Each Prophet(Peace be upon all of them) was unique in his own way. Each had special gifts, that the average person does not have. There is no distinction about the equality of them. Each was a man and each was a messenger from God(swt). Muhammad (PBUH) is only different in the sense that he is the last and no others will come after him. His message is dentical to the message given to all the others. But, his message is the only true copy of what was sent before him.

[dougmusr]

I would consider these cults, not Christians. To know more about each, research the founder of the sect, particularly Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Here's some information on Unitarian and Jehova's Witnesses taken from their web sites.

Jehova's Witnesses beliefs from watchtower.org.

Bible is God's Word and is truth
Bible is more reliable than tradition
God's name is Jehovah
Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him
Christ was first of God's creations
Christ died on a stake, not a cross
Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans
Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient
Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person
Christ's presence is in spirit
We are now in the 'time of the end'
Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace
Kingdom will bring ideal living conditions to earth
Earth will never be destroyed or depopulated
God will eliminate present system of things in the battle at Har-Magedon
Wicked will be eternally destroyed
People God approves will receive everlasting life
There is only one road to life
Human death is due to Adam's sin
The human soul ceases to exist at death
Hell is mankind's common grave
Hope for dead is resurrection
Adamic death will cease
Only a little flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ
The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God
New covenant is made with spiritual Israel
Christ's congregation is built upon himself
Prayers are to be directed only to Jehovah through Christ
Images should not be used in worship
Spiritism must be shunned
Satan is invisible ruler of world
A Christian ought to have no part in interfaith movements
A Christian should keep separate from world
Obey human laws that do not conflict with God's laws
Taking blood into body through mouth or veins violates God's laws
Bible's laws on morals must be obeyed
Sabbath observance was given only to Israel and ended with Mosaic Law
A clergy class and special titles are improper
Man did not evolve but was created
Christ set example that must be followed in serving God
Baptism by complete immersion symbolizes dedication
Christians gladly give public testimony to Scriptural truth

Unitarians from americanunitarian.com

A Brief Statement on Universalism
Dean Fisher
Revised March, 19, 2001

"As one of the founders of the AUC, I personally believe in salvation as a state of mind, the salve that makes us spiritually whole, and that we strive to achieve that salvation here on earth for ourselves and for others. I do not know if there is salvation in the after life, and I do not believe that I can truly know if it exists, it is a mystery that I can only ponder. Therefore, since I can not say that all members of the human race have achieved salvation by becoming spiritually whole during their lifetime, and I can not say that all will achieve salvation in the after life, I personally do not believe in a literal universal salvation. But that is only how I know God. Others within the AUC will know God in other ways, and many of them will believe in universal salvation. There is room for that in the AUC, room to hold our myriad of views on salvation, and opportunity to share our views on salvation with each other.

One further thought that I have on salvation is this - it isn't important whether or not I believe that salvation exists, what is important is that I live my life as though it does."

Their beliefs:

1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal ****ation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.

[Burninglight]

I wonder if there is an answer to this question...

When you say (as John Chapter 1 says according to some Christians) that God became a man... what do you mean?

Do you mean that God was God, but then He became a man and now He's not God anymore...

Or do you mean God became a man, but He was still God?

If the second explanation is true, then what does that mean? The reason I ask is because God and man are two seperate things... For example God is immortal. No one can kill God. But man is immortal. Thats why he's a man. So if God became man, which was He? Mortal or immortal?

Really I am not trying to be tongue in cheek. Im just trying to discover what you mean when you say God became a man. Does that mean that God became man so He wasn't God anymore, or does that mean that god became a man and was still God and so when He cut off His fingernails He was cutting off little pieces of God? Because neither option makes sense or even seems to be possible... so is there a third option I'm not thinking about?

Looking forward to your answers...

I believe that God is Spirit like the Bible states. I believe He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. Angels are Messengers that are holy, and they are spirits, but they are no the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was what was made man. The Word of Gvod existed as long as God in the pre incarnate stage. The word of God is not a creation. that is why the Bible states all things were made by Christ through Christ and for Christ. Jesus is the Word that God spoke all thing into existence. He said be and there it was and is. Why the one true God has made His Holiness and His Word distinct persons I don't know, but we believe the Lord our God is one. I hope this helps

[Ramadhan]

Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was what was made man. The Word of Gvod existed as long as God in the pre incarnate stage. The word of God is not a creation.

The word of God may not be a creation, but surely anyone who is not insane would know that Jesus (pbuh) was created.
Unless you believe that created = uncreated.

[Burninglight]

I suspect you have been on the forum long enough to have seen these questions asked and answered many, many times. But the answers never seem to get through. I wish I had the links to all the other answers, because one more attempt may be just a futile, but here goes....

Very good answer and point.

First, you have to understand the Trinity---ONE God, Three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). It was the SON who, though equally GOD with the Father and Spirit, took UPON Himself flesh (John 1:1,14). The Father did not take upon HIMSELF flesh; the Spirit did not take upon HIMSELF flesh. ONLY the SON took upon Himself flesh. The FATHER sent the SON to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The WAY the Son was the Savior of the world was by dying for the sins of the world. In order to do that HE had to take upon Himself mortal flesh capable of dying. His FLESH died, not His Deity. He was always GOD (clothed in the mortal, fleshly body), and yet He was also MAN because of that flesh. Phil. 2 explains it this way:

5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now that is the Gospel

Jesus, though wrapped in flesh in order to die for our sins, never ceased to be God (i.e., possessing Deity as to His substance, nature, or essence, which never died and never will die). And in that flesh, He showed total submission and obedience to the Father, as an example and model for us (the opposite of what Adam and Eve did).

That is why Jesus is referred to as the last Adam and not the second; otherwise, some other prophet might try to claim something over Jesus who according to the bible is not just a prophet messenger so much as He is the message!

When He cut off His fingernails, He was cutting off little pieces of His flesh, not little pieces of God. His fingernails were not His Deity; they were part of His mortal flesh that was the outer "form of a servant" or "likeness of men" (see Phil 2:7, quoted above).

Amen to that, PBUY bro. That is the Christian response I agree with.

[Burninglight]

The word of God may not be a creation, but surely anyone who is not insane would know that Jesus (pbuh) was created.
Unless you believe that created = uncreated.

Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation. I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well. That is the most I have ever agreed with a Muslim on one post and thread.
PBUY :)

[Ramadhan]

Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation.

You believe that Word of God is Jesus (pbuh). We don't believe that.

I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well.

Do you tend to agree or do you agree with me?

Can a christian please give straight answer just once?

[Burninglight]

Originally Posted by Burninglight
Well, we agree that the Word of God is not a creation.
You believe that Word of God is Jesus (pbuh). We don't believe that.


Originally Posted by Burninglight
I would tend to agree with you also that the flesh and blood of Jesus was come about the way all flesh except His was an Immaculate Conception as we probably agree on that as well.
Do you tend to agree or do you agree with me?

Can a christian please give straight answer just once?

Many Muslims agree that Jesus is the Word of God but they don't believe He is the word made flesh, but you are telling me that you don't believe he is the word of God or do you? Please give me a straight answer from a Muslim's perspective.

I agree that Jesus' flesh and blood is like any other man, but I disagree that you say He is not the word of God made flesh and dwelled with us. The Word of God is not a creation; God's word is God! For God can do nothing without His word. Without His word, nothing would exist. "All things are held together by the word of His power." We believe Jesus is the word God used to speak all things into existence and holds all things together with. Jesus is not dead. He lives and He is coming back to judge the living and the dead!

[Ramadhan]

Many Muslims agree that Jesus is the Word of God

Another false statement about Islam.
You keep on LYING.

You claim that you are "true biblical christian"

Does bible command you to keep lying?

[Burninglight]

No one has yet to answer this question...

It has been answered. The Bible states that God is Spirit. He is Holy; therefore, He is the Holy Spirit. The Quran never mentions the Holy Spirit as the third person in the trinity but alludes to the trinity consisting of the father, mother and son, because of Allah's question to Jesus something to the effect "did you say take you and your mother as two gods besides myself?" (there's what appears to be Allah's understanding of the trinity) Allah did say, "say not three." All three were mentioned just in that one question to Isa.

So don't feel bad about not understanding the trinity; there is no indiction it was understood in the Quran. Christains believe there is one God. We believe Jesus is God's word made flesh. That is why Christians refer to Jesus as God incarnated. "God exaltes His word above all His name" as written in Scripture. After all, God cannot be greater than His word.

If any wants to know more than this, I prefer it continue to be a mystery like it has always been, but your question has been answered; you haven't accepted it. We believe God is one just like Jesus, Abraham & Moses did , but Jesus gave us a peek into how deep God actually is. His love and essence passes our understanding. We are not commanded to explain God's nature. How can infinite beings explain an infinite God? That is why all questions and comments in response to such a topic appear convoluted.

[syed1]

So after going on a few chirstain forums and speaking about life after death and what happens etc, the general notion seems to be that NO chirstain is AT ALL concerned about what will happen- they are 100% sure they are going to achieve paradise- NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO ON THIS EARTH

WHAT A JOKE!

Seriously, how naive can they be? they know that in this life there is no such thing as a free lunch yet they expect a free lunch in the hereafter ? Come on!

they say that no matter how good we do it does not matter since Jesus died for our sins and we are good to go...

so I ask them, if Jesus has already shed his blood for you, what is your motive to do good deeds and forbid evil? EXACTLY, there is NONE what so ever..
why would you be laboring away doing good deeds when you have already been guaranteed paradise?
You might as well go about fornicating, fullfilling lustful desires, jerking of to images of lecherous woman, indulged in the aromas of alcholals and have swollen tummies full of swine while murdering a infant children with a dagger?

What is stopping you I ask? NOTHING, absolutely nothing... no amount of sin can forbid you from paradise since Jesus died for them already....

what a joke. seriously..do you not think or reflect about this at all?

[Burninglight]

Another false statement about Islam.
You keep on LYING.

You claim that you are "true biblical christian"

Does bible command you to keep lying?

Listen you are not the only Muslim that I correspond with. I am not a liar. Many Muslims tell me that they believe Jesus is he word of God, but they don't believe he is the word made flesh. They believe he was the word of God for his time as Moses was for his and so on. Calling someone a liar is rude to say the least. You are not being civil.

It is strange that you are a moderator^o)
BTW, show me were I claimed to be a "true Biblical Christian." I never claimed that with my own lips. It is something you precieved on your own, and I simply accept that discription of yours in sounds prophetic! It is like you police everything I say to get me into an "I got situation" that doesn't make for good dialogue especially for one who is a moderator on the forum. If you PM about it, I would PM this to you but you publically called me a liar. I might be mistaken but I would never intentionally liar about Islam because I happen to have a profound respect for that religion and Muhammad its prophet in spite of what you say!

[Hamza Asadullah]

Many Muslims tell me that they believe Jesus is he word of God, but they don't believe he is the word made flesh. They believe he was the word of God for his time as Moses was for his and so on.

You allege that Catholics have deviated and have infiltrated paganism into their faith but is this not what your denomination have also done? The paganistic concept of the trinity (which is NOT mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible) and the worship of a man God were the practise of Pagans for thousands of years. On top of that Paul himself was a pagan who infiltrated paganistic concepts into Christianity thus going against the very teachings of Christ and the Bible which is to worship ONE God.

[Burninglight]

You allege that Catholics have deviated and have infiltrated paganism into their faith but is this not what your denomination have also done? The paganistic concept of the trinity (which is NOT mentioned ANYWHERE in the Bible) and the worship of a man God were the practise of Pagans for thousands of years. On top of that Paul himself was a pagan who infiltrated paganistic concepts into Christianity thus going against the very teachings of Christ and the Bible which is to worship ONE God.

I have never promoted the term "trinity" and you are not using the term "infiltrate" correctly in your sentence

[Hamza Asadullah]

I have never promoted the term "trinity" and you are not using the term "infiltrate" correctly in your sentence

You never seem to actually respond directly to any questions posed to you. You just seem to pick out a sentence and make a pointless comment about it. What is the use of having a discussion with you if you are going to keep doing that?

[Burninglight]

You never seem to actually respond directly to any questions posed to you. You just seem to pick out a sentence and make a pointless comment about it. What is the use of having a discussion with you if you are going to keep doing that?

My comment was not pointless and why should I share my heart when many critcize me for it. I am playing it safe for now. I don't feel the Lord is leading to say any more. Just ignore me if my comments are pointless to you and I'll stop responding. I don't know what else to say. Everyone can blast me and what I believe, but I can't say anything without being called a liar and without sincerity; do you look at what one moderator says about me?
:omg:

[Hamza Asadullah]

My comment was not pointless and why should I share my heart when many critcize me for it. I am playing it safe for now. I don't feel the Lord is leading to say any more. Just ignore me if my comments are pointless to you and I'll stop responding. I don't know what else to say. Everyone can blast me and what I believe, but I can't say anything without being called a liar and without sincerity; do you look at what one moderator says about me?
:omg:

Only God knows what is in ones heart but what i am commenting on is your actions. When a person responds to you and puts the effort in to make a thorough post then you do not seem to respond to the whole post, but in a subtle way you disregard the majority of it and pick out a sentence from the whole post and make a pointless statement about it.

It is fine if a person does this here and there but you seem to keep doing it. That is what i have been observing from you. I dont mean to offend you but i do find it quite insincere.

[Burninglight]

Only God knows what is in ones heart but what i am commenting on is your actions. When a person responds to you and puts the effort in to make a thorough post then you do not seem to respond to the whole post, but in a subtle way you disregard the majority of it and pick out a sentence from the whole post and make a pointless statement about it.

It is fine if a person does this here and there but you seem to keep doing it. That is what i have been observing from you. I dont mean to offend you but i do find it quite insincere.

Not all Muslims seem to believe that God knows what is in ones heart, by what I am accused of; so apparently some are taking on the job of Allah when judging my comments. You should have been able to just subsitute opinion or comment for heart to understand the point I was trying to make in response to you. Instead of addressing the reason I gave for posting the way I do, you bring up an irrevelant comment about how God only knows what is in the heart. We all know that and it goes without saying. WADR, you are doing what you accurse me of. I have 254 posts on the forum. Find a few post that show me being insincere or evasive for the purpose of deception so I can see an example of what you're referring to.

[Burninglight]

good night to this thread

[Hamza Asadullah]

Not all Muslims seem to believe that God knows what is in ones heart, by what I am accused of; so apparently some a taking on the job of Allah when judging my comments. You should have been able to just subsitute opinion or comment for heart to understand the point I was trying to make in response to you. Instead of addressing the reason I gave for posting the way I do, you bring up an irrevelant comment about how God only knows what is in the heart. We all know that and it goes without saying. WADR, you are doing what you accurse me of. I have 254 posts on the forum. Find a few post that show me being insincere or evasive for the purpose of deception so I can see an example of what you're referring to.

What i meant by insincere is that when you are debating and discussing with a person then surely you should answer all of their points rather than just pick up a statement and make an irrelevant comment about it. My point is that it is fine if a person did that once or twice but you seem to keep doing it and that is why i decided to take it up with you directly. If you want a proper discussion with people then at least acknowledge what they have written "wholly" rather than just selectively. Thank you for understanding and i apologise to you if i caused you any offence.

[Burninglight]

What i meant by insincere is that when you are debating and discussing with a person then surely you should answer all of their points rather than just pick up a statement and make an irrelevant comment about it. My point is that it is fine if a person did that once or twice but you seem to keep doing it and that is why i decided to take it up with you directly. If you want a proper discussion with people then at least acknowledge what they have written "wholly" rather than just selectively. Thank you for understanding and i apologise to you if i caused you any offence.

Actually, I consider you to be civil. You have to realize that I am being addressed sometimes by several people at one time. I simply cannot keep up with the dialogue as much as I want. Another thing is people are sensitive, and I have to be careful what I say, because I don't want to offend anyone myself. I feel that I have already, and I am always on the edge here. I realize this is a Muslim forum, and I am the odd ball on it!

Now, with that being said, tell me what particular question wasn't answered by me, and I'll go through the pains to do that for you in deference to your wishes. Maybe I should change my name to "The Offensive One"
Peace