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Helena
08-02-2006, 08:07 PM
:sl:

am totally confused, i've been hearing this word frequently in da news and programmes.....can someone tell me the meaning inshalah...

is it a particular group..anything to do with religion.....

the words such as, zion, zionism and zionist.....wot does it all mean?

:w:
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Zionazi_Dissent
08-02-2006, 08:12 PM
They are Jews in Nazi form.
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Helena
08-02-2006, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Zionazi_Dissent
They are Jews in Nazi form.
erm.....so ur saying they are jews in nazi form...how cum?
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snakelegs
08-03-2006, 04:03 AM
zionism is a political movement. basically it holds that there needs to be a jewish state, and fully supports israel. not all jews are zionists, by any means.
this movement took advantage of the fact that the land of zion has always been central in the religion.
many non-jews (esp. christians) also agree with the above and are very pro-israel because of their religious prophecy.
very broadly speaking, if you support israel's right to exist, you are a zionist.
ooops lavikor answered while i was posting. he would know more than me.
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lavikor201
08-03-2006, 04:04 AM
Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century.
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sameer
08-03-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
zionism is a political movement. basically it holds that there needs to be a jewish state, and fully supports israel. not all jews are zionists, by any means.
this movement took advantage of the fact that the land of zion has always been central in the religion.
many non-jews (esp. christians) also agree with the above and are very pro-israel because of their religious prophecy.
very broadly speaking, if you support israel's right to exist, you are a zionist.
ooops lavikor answered while i was posting. he would know more than me.
To add to the above, u may be wondering y all jews dont support Zionism and the establishment of a jewish state. This is beacuse their religious text teaches that a state of Israel should only be formed upon the coming of their messiah. And since their Messiah hasnt arrived (to my knowledge) then there shouldnt be a place called israel. So some jews hold fast to their teachings, while others ......well....i guess they have a different understanding of their teachings or they donnot care for it.
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Helena
08-03-2006, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
To add to the above, u may be wondering y all jews dont support Zionism and the establishment of a jewish state. This is beacuse their religious text teaches that a state of Israel should only be formed upon the coming of their messiah. And since their Messiah hasnt arrived (to my knowledge) then there shouldnt be a place called israel. So some jews hold fast to their teachings, while others ......well....i guess they have a different understanding of their teachings or they donnot care for it.
whose exactly there messiah??? who are they wating for?
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sameer
08-03-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by HAJI_HELENA
whose exactly there messiah??? who are they wating for?
Some Christians believe the jewish messiah to be the Antichrist and so does muslims except we call him dahjal.
He will return and rebuild the temple of david which ruins lies under Masjid al Aqsa.

Orinigally the jews thought Muhammad (saw) to be their messiah when he arrived in Medina and they followed him. He used to face Jerusalem to pray at that time, and the jews were really convinced about him. But then the revelation from Allah came to face Mecca to pray and the jews disregarded him after. They then conspired with the quraish to ambush the muslims and destroy them, but Allah warn the prophet(saw) and thus those jews were banished from Medina. So til this day their ultimate goal is to destroy Islam and by extension Muhammad.
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Dahir
08-03-2006, 05:37 PM
Zionism= Kill people and take their lands.
And that's all you need to know.

-A message brought to you by Al-Jazeera with the cooperation of Mel Gibson! :D

Seriously though, I personally view it to be ethnocentric and not exactly Nazism, but a form of Apartheid, just watered down.

Most Orthodox Jews and Christians are opposed to Zionism, its just a few that are, and the few have the most power in the world; Evangelical Christians, and they comprise almost entirely the Republican Party; the world's most powerful political party.

The few Jewish people I have met are against it, except one and his a militant-type; very pro-Sharon and Netanyahu and was more a Nationalist than religious type.
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sameer
08-03-2006, 05:47 PM
heres a jews description of their messiah
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/fa...-criteria.html
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Helena
08-03-2006, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
heres a jews description of their messiah
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/fa...-criteria.html

shukran for the site....am jus looking at....
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strider
08-03-2006, 05:53 PM
Assalamu alaikum

Just to add, Zionism and Judaism are two different things. It is alright to be anti-zionist(oppose a political movement) while it is not okey to be anti-semetic.

Ma'assalama
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Helena
08-03-2006, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by strider
Assalamu alaikum

Just to add, Zionism and Judaism are two different things. It is alright to be anti-zionist(oppose a political movement) while it is not okey to be anti-semetic.

Ma'assalama

that i was thinking too....zionism and judiasm are two diff things...and most judaism followers dnt accept zionism...

how cum?
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strider
08-03-2006, 05:57 PM
Assalamu alaikum

Originally Posted by HAJI_HELENA
that i was thinking too....zionism and judiasm are two diff things...and most judaism followers dnt accept zionism...

how cum?
http://jewsagainstzionism.com/
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 06:04 PM
To add to the above, u may be wondering y all jews dont support Zionism and the establishment of a jewish state. This is beacuse their religious text teaches that a state of Israel should only be formed upon the coming of their messiah. And since their Messiah hasnt arrived (to my knowledge) then there shouldnt be a place called israel. So some jews hold fast to their teachings, while others ......well....i guess they have a different understanding of their teachings or they donnot care for it.


Wrong. if I had a buzzer I would use it right now.

HERE is the explanation:

The belief that Israel should not exist is according to the three oaths.

Here they are:

One that Israel would not "go up like a wall" [conquer Eretz
Yisrael by massive force]
2. One that G-d made Israel swear that they would not rebel agains
the nations of the world [would obey the governments in the exile]
3. And one that G-d made the non-Jews swear not to oppress Israel
"too much" [translation of phrase yoter midai]

1. That the Jews not conquer Israel by massive force.
2. That Jews obey the nations they live in run by non-jewish goverments.
3. God then swore that the Jews in non-jewish countries would not opress/persecute the Jews. And if they did, then the oaths were off and the jews could have a state again.

Do you think oath 3 was violated during the Holocaust? Yes of course it was. Therefore the other 2 oaths were broken because the third was as by rules and therefore 3 years after the Holocaust israel was miraculously created.

Some Jews believe the oath was not broken. Many of these Jews lived in areas where the Holocaust did not effect them, so they were not persecuted, but the Jewish people overall were. 6 million died.
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sameer
08-03-2006, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Wrong. if I had a buzzer I would use it right now.

HERE is the explanation:

The belief that Israel should not exist is according to the three oaths.

Here they are:

One that Israel would not "go up like a wall" [conquer Eretz
Yisrael by massive force]
2. One that G-d made Israel swear that they would not rebel agains
the nations of the world [would obey the governments in the exile]
3. And one that G-d made the non-Jews swear not to oppress Israel
"too much" [translation of phrase yoter midai]

1. That the Jews not conquer Israel by massive force.
2. That Jews obey the nations they live in run by non-jewish goverments.
3. God then swore that the Jews in non-jewish countries would not opress/persecute the Jews. And if they did, then the oaths were off and the jews could have a state again.

Do you think oath 3 was violated during the Holocaust? Yes of course it was. Therefore the other 2 oaths were broken because the third was as by rules and therefore 3 years after the Holocaust israel was miraculously created.

Some Jews believe the oath was not broken. Many of these Jews lived in areas where the Holocaust did not effect them, so they were not persecuted, but the Jewish people overall were. 6 million died.

Are u a jew?

Anyhow....moving on this is from a jewsih website.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/whatis.cfm

What is Zionism?
One of our most oft-asked questions is "what is Zionism?"

Theodor Herzl
Theodor Herzl

Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

The purpose of this website is to explain why traditional Jews do not support Zionism (the return to the land called "Israel") and why the Zionist idealogy is totally contrary to traditional Jewish law and beliefs and the teachings of the Holy Torah.
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snakelegs
08-03-2006, 06:33 PM
i will leave this messiah business for lavikor, who will certainly know much more than i do.
but, in the meantime.....
there are many jews who support israel's right to exist and so they are zionists but that doesn't automatically mean that they support the policies of the state of israel. many are highly critical - including many israelis.
the anti zionists (for religious) are only a fringe of orthodox jews. most orthodox jews support zionism. when israel is attacked, jews (like any other family) tend to forget their differences.
if you have questions for lavikor, he has a thread in comparative religions section.
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sameer
08-03-2006, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i will leave this messiah business for lavikor, who will certainly know much more than i do.
but, in the meantime.....
there are many jews who support israel's right to exist and so they are zionists but that doesn't automatically mean that they support the policies of the state of israel. many are highly critical - including many israelis.
the anti zionists (for religious) are only a fringe of orthodox jews. most orthodox jews support zionism. when israel is attacked, jews (like any other family) tend to forget their differences.
if you have questions for lavikor, he has a thread in comparative religions section.
Just beacuse the real jews are fewer in number than the zionists...does that make their views with regards to their religious teachings worng? When the prophets came to a ppl and only a few believed them whilst the majority didint...did that make them wrong?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/je...t_zionism.html
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ManchesterFolk
08-03-2006, 07:11 PM
Are u a jew?
No.

I just took a course of in depth comparitive religion.

I educated myself before I spoke about religion to others.

Just beacuse the real jews are fewer in number than the zionists...does that make their views with regards to their religious teachings worng?
Just because Al-Queda supporters and people who rejoiced 9/11 are a huge minority in the Muslims world does that make them wrong?

The views of this small fringe are wrong.

because the Holocaust is a direct violation of the 3rd oath.

Because the third oath did not effect them is irrelevant.
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sameer
08-03-2006, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
No.

I just took a course of in depth comparitive religion.

I educated myself before I spoke about religion to others.



Just because Al-Queda supporters and people who rejoiced 9/11 are a huge minority in the Muslims world does that make them wrong?

The views of this small fringe are wrong.

because the Holocaust is a direct violation of the 3rd oath.

Because the third oath did not effect them is irrelevant.
where did these oaths come from? are they from the torah?
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snakelegs
08-03-2006, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by sameer
Just beacuse the real jews are fewer in number than the zionists...does that make their views with regards to their religious teachings worng? When the prophets came to a ppl and only a few believed them whilst the majority didint...did that make them wrong?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/je...t_zionism.html
i can not say who is right and who is wrong. that's god's department.
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