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Kidman
08-04-2006, 05:13 PM
The "hiding among civilians" myth

Israel claims it's justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn't trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.

By Mitch Prothero

Jul. 28, 2006 | The bombs came just as night fell, around 7 p.m. The locals knew that the 10-story apartment building had been the office, and possibly the residence, of Sheik Tawouk, the Hezbollah commander for the south, so they had moved their families out at the start of the war. The landlord had refused to rent to Hezbollah when they requested the top floors of the building. No matter, the locals said, the Hezb guys just moved in anyway in the name of the "resistance."

Everyone knew that the building would be hit eventually. Its location in downtown Tyre, which had yet to be hit by Israeli airstrikes, was not going to protect it forever. And "everyone" apparently included Sheik Tawouk, because he wasn't anywhere near it when it was finally hit.

Two guided bombs struck it in a huge flash bang of fire and concrete dust followed by the roar of 10 stories pancaking on top of each other, local residents said. Jihad Husseini, 46, runs the driving school a block away and was sitting in his office when the bombs struck. He said his life was saved because he had drawn the heavy cloth curtains shut on the windows facing the street, preventing him from being hit by a wave of shattered glass. But even so, a chunk of smoldering steel flew through the air, broke through the window and the curtain, and shot past his head and through the wall before coming to rest in his neighbor's home.

But Jihad still refuses to leave.

"Everything is broken, but I can make it better," he says, surrounded by his sons Raed, 20, and Mohammed, 12. "I will not leave. This place is not military, it is not Hezbollah; it was an empty apartment."

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

People throw the phrase "ghost town" around a lot, but Nabatiya, a bombed-out town about 15 miles from the Lebanon-Israel border, deserves it. One expects the spirits of the town's dead, or its refugees, to silently glide out onto its abandoned streets from the ruined buildings that make up much of the town.

Not all of the buildings show bomb damage, but those that don't have metal shutters blown out as if by a terrible wind. And there are no people at all, except for the occasional Hezbollah scout on a motorbike armed only with a two-way radio, keeping an eye on things as Israeli jets and unmanned drones circle overhead.

Overlooking the outskirts of this town, which has a peacetime population of 100,000 or so -- mostly Shiite supporters of Hezbollah and its more secular rival Amal -- is the Ragheh Hareb Hospital, a facility that makes quite clear what side the residents of Nabatiya are on in this conflict.

The hospital's carefully sculpted and trimmed front lawn contains the giant Red Crescent that denotes the Muslim version of the Red Cross. As we approach it, an Israeli missile streaks by, smashing into a school on the opposite hilltop. As we crouch and then run for the shelter of the hospital awning, that giant crescent reassures me until I look at the flagpole. The Lebanese flag and its cedar tree is there -- right next to the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

It's safe to say that Ragheh Hareb Hospital has an association with Hezbollah. And the staff sports the trimmed beards and polite, if somewhat ominous, manner of the group. After young men demand press IDs and do some quick questioning, they allow us to enter.

Dr. Ahmed Tahir recognizes me from a funeral in the nearby village of Dweir. An Israeli bomb dropped on their house killed a Hezbollah cleric and 11 members of his immediate family, mostly children. People in Lebanon are calling it a war crime. Tahir looks exhausted, and our talk is even more tense than the last time.

"Maybe it would be best if the Israelis bombed your car on the road here," he said, with a sharp edge. "If you were killed, maybe the public outcry would be so bad in America that the Jews would be forced to stop these attacks."

When I volunteered that the Bush administration cared little for journalists, let alone ones who reported from Hezbollah territory, he shrugged. "Maybe if it was an American bomb used by the Israelis that killed an American journalist, they would stop this horror," he said.

The handful of people in the town include some from Hezbollah's political wing, as well as volunteers keeping an eye on things while the residents are gone. Off to the side, as we watch the Israelis pummel ridgelines on the outskirts of town, one of the political operatives explains that the fighters never come near the town, reinforcing what other Hezbollah people have told me over the years.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons -- they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed -- but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Perhaps once a year, Hezbollah will hold a military parade in the south, in which its weapons and fighters appear. Media access to these parades is tightly limited and controlled. Unlike the fighters in the half dozen other countries where I have covered insurgencies, Hezbollah fighters do not like to show off for the cameras. In Iraq, with some risk taking, you can meet with and even watch the resistance guys in action. (At least you could during my last time there.) In Afghanistan, you can lunch with Taliban fighters if you're willing to walk a day or so in the mountains. In Gaza and the West Bank, the Fatah or Hamas fighter is almost ubiquitous with his mask, gun and sloganeering to convince the Western journalist of the justice of his cause.

The Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid. In three trips over the last week to the south, where I came near enough to the fighting to hear Israeli artillery, and not just airstrikes, I saw exactly no fighters. Guys with radios with the look of Hezbollah always found me. But no fighters on corners, no invitations to watch them shoot rockets at the Zionist enemy, nothing that can be used to track them.

Even before the war, on many of my trips to the south, the Lebanese army, or the ubiquitous guy on a motorbike with a radio, would halt my trip and send me over to Tyre to get permission from a Hezbollah official before I could proceed, usually with strict limits on where I could go.

Every other journalist I know who has covered Hezbollah has had the same experience. A fellow journalist, a Lebanese who has covered them for two decades, knows only one military guy who will admit it, and he never talks or grants interviews. All he will say is, "I'll be gone for a few months for training. I'll call when I'm back." Presumably his friends and neighbors may suspect something, but no one says anything.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

Earlier in the week, I stood next to a giant crater that had smashed through the highway between Tyre and Sidon -- the only route of escape for most of the people in the far south. Overhead, Israeli fighters and drones circled above the city and its outlying areas and regular blasts of bombs and naval artillery could be heard.

The crater served as a nice place to check up on the refugees, who were forced by the crater to slow down long enough to be asked questions. They barely stopped, their faces wrenched in near panic. The main wave of refugees out of the south had come the previous two days, so these were the hard-luck cases, the people who had been really close to the fighting and who needed two days just to get to Tyre, or who had had to make the tough decision whether to flee or stay put, with neither choice looking good.

The roads in the south are full of the cars of people who chose wrong -- burned-out chassis, broken glass, some cars driven straight into posts or ditches. Other seem to have broken down or run out of gas on the long dirt detours around the blown-out highway and bridge network the Israeli air force had spent days methodically destroying even as it warned people to flee.

One man, slowing his car around the crater, almost screams, "There is nothing left. This country is not for us." His brief pause immediately draws horns and impatient yells from the people in the cars behind him. They pass the crater but within two minutes a large explosion behind us, north, in the direction of Sidon, rocks us.

As we drive south toward Tyre, we soon pass a new series of scars on the highway: shrapnel, hubcaps and broken glass. A car that had been maybe five minutes ahead of us was hit by an Israeli shell. Three of its passengers were wounded, and it was heading north to the Hammound hospital at Sidon. We turned around because of the attack and followed the car to Sidon. Those unhurt staked out the parking lot of the hospital, looking for the Western journalists they were convinced had called in the strike. Luckily my Iraqi fixer smelled trouble and we got out of there. Probably nothing would have happened -- mostly they were just freaked-out country people who didn't like the coincidence of an Israeli attack and a car full of journalists driving past.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.

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Geronimo
08-04-2006, 05:15 PM
We have posted at least 5 pictures that prove this wrong.
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 05:31 PM
ok, you can post 5 pictures where there are supposedly Hezbollah surrounded by civilians? Please dont post the ones where they are helping the families in the east, that is not hiding...

Also, i can post hundreds of pictures where you will not see one civilian in sight, but what will that do?

You can believe what you want... Hezbollah, the ones trying to protect the Lebanese people from the Israeli attacks are hiding behind them... ya, sounds right no?

Kidman
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 05:41 PM
Kidman.
So where are Hezbollah hiding? :giggling:
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lavikor201
08-04-2006, 05:42 PM
Hezbollah are obviously hididng in areas where there are no civilians then right... WRONG>

Hezbollah = Terrorists who use human shields.
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 05:54 PM
The are hiding in the mountains mainly... and other places :)
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
The are hiding in the mountains mainly... and other places :)
Is that why they are being killed in the cities.
Get real.
Hating Isreal does not justify lying.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
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sonz
08-04-2006, 06:12 PM
lol

its so funny that pro-israelis r whining about small things while israel continues killing civilians.

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

no matter how much u whine, in the end israel has killed almost a 1000 of civilians and hizbullah has avoided many civilian deaths
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Ninth_Scribe
08-04-2006, 06:26 PM
I'm sick of this subject!

Name the one thing all these groups, America, Israel, Al Qaeda, Iraq, Hezbollah, etc, etc, etc, have in common? They all have the blood of innocents on their hands... every one of them! Speaking on behalf of the women of this world, we've taken this sh-t from you MEN since the dawn of time because none of you have a clue how to get along. Get a life, but spare me the useless sentiments about us innocent women with children. We know none of you mean it anyway. Tip the laws this way and that and you ALL find ways to justify it in the end. After all, there are all these 'high value targets' to consider....pfft!

And spare me with the juvenile mentality of who started it. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Who cares!? Look at this mess! Y'all made it... y'all clean it up. For the love of God, I don't care about who hides where... no one (least of all, at our ages), should be hiding... from anyone! No one should be killing civilians, especially women and children, no target should be worth that. Why? Because we end up emulating the very qualities we complain about in others, and yes... it's that obvious!

Every one of these groups condemned Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, but they demonstrated how much they resent him by behaving the exact same way, so they're not better - they're just different.

I want to see something better than this because these accusations just go around in circles. Break the f--king cycle!

Ninth Scribe
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 06:43 PM
Ninth_Scribe
:thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou: :thankyou:

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
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Tania
08-04-2006, 06:58 PM
How can be so sure the israeli army they will not bomb exactly the building where are hiding that 2 soldiers too?That would be the great news of this war: the 2 kidnnaped soldiers unfortunatelly died due to the israeli bomb.
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lavikor201
08-04-2006, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mara
How can be so sure the israeli army they will not bomb exactly the building where are hiding that 2 soldiers too?That would be the great news of this war: the 2 kidnnaped soldiers unfortunatelly died due to the israeli bomb.
Oh yes, the hearing of the death of two souls that G-d put on this earth is great news...

What kind of person are you? Obviously not very decent by the comment you just made.
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Oh yes, the hearing of the death of two souls that G-d put on this earth is great news...

What kind of person are you? Obviously not very decent by the comment you just made.
I was thinking the same thing.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
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Tania
08-04-2006, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Oh yes, the hearing of the death of two souls that G-d put on this earth is great news...

What kind of person are you? Obviously not very decent by the comment you just made.
.I don't want to offend you but think: the israeli army went to recover the two kidnapped soldiers , two life and after me the most precious lifes at this hour from the entire country. And how they try to recover the two soldiers? bombing everything, every place where the supposed fighters are living. Tell me this is the best strategy to find alive your own soldiers? In the same building may be they are kept too.No?

God forbidden, i don't wish anyone to die and i didn't say that with the intention to happen something to them :( but that would prove the fact Israel doesn't care about them either and they want something else.
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Tania
08-04-2006, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I was thinking the same thing.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
I don't hate any people . ok may be anyone can't understand how i think so its better to stop it:X I am sure the two soldiers are in safe place and will be find alive.
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 07:25 PM
Those pictures do not prove anything. I may easily upload similar images from my hard-drive to fabricate a convenient story around them. The idea that a news agency made the claim does not prove the allegation either. Some news agencies are famous for their lies.

In any case, it is well known that Hizbullah fighters are mostly based in the south awaiting the zionist boy scouts. Hizbullah is also known to be a highly secretive group and adopts certain strict policies to avoid its inflitration. Among these policies are that it's fighters do not mingle with civilians during times of war in case they are compromised.

This fact is supported by the recent report of a human rights group in Lebanon that there is no evidence of any Hizbullah fighters among the dead civilians. The zionists themselves have now also admitted lying about Hizbullah fighters being in the Qana area.

The truth is that the Zionists must use this lie in order to justify their controversial and barbaric tactics of waging a war against Lebanese civilians. Without this lie they cannot otherwise justify their atrocities. It's not rocket science really.

Kidman
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mara
.I don't want to offend you but think: the israeli army went to recover the two kidnapped soldiers , two life and after me the most precious lifes at this hour from the entire country. And how they try to recover the two soldiers? bombing everything, every place where the supposed fighters are living. Tell me this is the best strategy to find alive your own soldiers? In the same building may be they are kept too.No?

God forbidden, i don't wish anyone to die and i didn't say that with the intention to happen something to them :( but that would prove the fact Israel doesn't care about them either and they want something else.
It is good to know that I don't hate any people but,
What do you think Israel should have done?
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is good to know that I don't hate any people but,
What do you think Israel should have done?
Maybe give back the hostages of the lebanese civilians they have...

Kidman
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Maybe give back the hostages of the lebanese civilians they have...

Kidman
Then just wait for the next attack? They traided before and look what happened. When you pay kidnappers you can be sure of one thing, there will be more kidnappings.
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Then just wait for the next attack? They traided before and look what happened. When you pay kidnappers you can be sure of one thing, there will be more kidnappings.
Next Attack? First off, Israel was around 6 km inside Lebanese territory when this took place. Second, Hezbollah rarely attacks, they have always defended their people, Unless they have a justified reason.

They warned Israel for months prior to the events on july 12th... and Israel chose not to listen. There wouldn't be more kidnappings if Israel didn't have what was rightfully theirs.

Kidman
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Tania
08-04-2006, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Then just wait for the next attack? They traided before and look what happened. When you pay kidnappers you can be sure of one thing, there will be more kidnappings.
I thought at something like that:
The israeli government should have informed the lebanese government about the kidnapped soldiers. Like : Lebanese its an independent country with his borders, i respect your sovereignty but you please look after my two soldiers kidnapped by your beloved party members. The lebanese government could contact the party and begin to talk with them or take any measure with them because they are lebanese people.Its a national issue.no? After me at this hour even the integrity of this country its under question.
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HeiGou
08-04-2006, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Maybe give back the hostages of the lebanese civilians they have...
Which hostages does Israel hold? I believe there are precisely two Lebanese citizens in Israeli jails. You mean them?
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 07:55 PM
Israel was around 6 km inside Lebanese territory when this took place
Depends on where you draw the line.
Hezbollah rarely attacks
Which means that they do attack.
they have always defended their people
They defend them by firing amongst there homes
They warned Israel for months prior to the events on july 12th
So it is OK to kidnap as long as you give prior warning?
wouldn't be more kidnappings if Israel didn't have what was rightfully theirs.
You seam to forget what Hezbollah primary objective is.

[MAD]Stop the hate![/MAD]
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 08:03 PM
The Israeli government should have informed the Lebanese government about the kidnapped soldiers.
But the Lebanese government doesn’t have any control over Hezbollah. Hezbollah’s military is stronger than that of the government.

I have total empathy for the Lebanese people and no love for Israel. But I just don’t see what real chooses the Israeli people have. I only see two options. Seven million people pickup and scatter around the world or fight. Obviously they have chosen the later.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
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Tania
08-04-2006, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
But the Lebanese government doesn’t have any control over Hezbollah. Hezbollah’s military is stronger than that of the government.

I have total empathy for the Lebanese people and no love for Israel. But I just don’t see what real chooses the Israeli people have. I only see two options. Seven million people pickup and scatter around the world or fight. Obviously they have chosen the later.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
If the israeli army was beyond the lebanese borders (now i heard this for the very first time) i don't think they were threatened. Why they entered in Lebanon?The tv never mentioned that. I knew only about the borders soldiers being kidnapped.


How don't they have control? Every citizen must obey to the same laws.
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mara
If the israeli army was beyond the lebanese borders (now i heard this for the very first time) i don't think they were threatened. Why they entered in Lebanon?The tv never mentioned that. I knew only about the borders soldiers being kidnapped.


How don't they have control? Every citizen must obey to the same laws.
You just heard it for the first time because it is just the latest in the propganda war. It is real easy. Just draw the border line where it was 6 years ago. So you see, they didn't enter Lebanon. That is why it wasn't on TV. Most new reports try to be honest.

How don't they have control? Lebanon has been trying to get back on its feet for some time. It just isn't strong enouth. The complexaty of that issue is beyond my knowledge.
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou
Which hostages does Israel hold? I believe there are precisely two Lebanese citizens in Israeli jails. You mean them?
Exactly, 2 for 2. Actually, Hezbollah originally wanted to negociate fot the realease of the 8,000 + innocent palestinians they keep in their jails also.

Kidman
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scentsofjannah
08-04-2006, 08:30 PM
WILBERHUM, HEIGOU, GERINIMO, LAVIKOR


Where were they when they got captured? inside Lebanese territories.

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity
http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html


The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. [Hindustan Times 7/12/06] http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut Bahrain News Agency http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory. [fr.news.yahoo 7/12/06] http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/20...tres-tues.html

According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning. [AFP 7/12/06]

The militant group Hezbollah said it captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the border in southern Lebanon on Wednesday. [chinabroadcast 7/12/06] http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/200...191@113428.htm

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel. [news.monstersandcritics.com 7/12/06] http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...ing_so ldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory. [Asia Times 7/15/06] http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

TRANSLATION: Hezbollah has made it clear time and again that it would retaliate by capturing and detaining Israeli soldiers if they entered Lebanon and use them in an exchange of prisoners. Israel has in a deliberate manner sent a commando into Lebanon (Aïta Al Chaab) They came under attack from Hezbollah, who captured two of their soldiers. [voltairenet.org 7/18/06] http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

Only weeks ago, an entire reserve division was drafted in order to train for an operation such as the one the IDF is planning in response to Wednesday morning's Hizbullah attacks on IDF forces along the northern border. [JPost 7/12/06] http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ticle/ShowFull

Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly. [SFGate 7/21/06] http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/169834.php
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Depends on where you draw the line.

They defend them by firing amongst there homes
what other targets do they have??? When Israel is flying overhead and dropping bombs, their only way to retaliate is to shoot their missles into Israel. At least they do it during certain times, which give Israeli's knowledge about when the rockets will come pouring in so they can safely hide in their underground bunkers.

That's why Hezbollah hasn't attacked Tel Aviv yet, they don't have these bunkers for their civilians... But if Israel forces them to, i donno.


So it is OK to kidnap as long as you give prior warning?
Say i kidnapped your sister. You will have by all means every right to come over and kick my ass and get your sister back... But instead you call me and tell me and give me that warning. Be glad that Hezbollah even gave the warning and gave Israel the chance to get away with their crime w/out having to resort to the measures at hand.

You seam to forget what Hezbollah primary objective is.

[MAD]Stop the hate![/MAD]
To Defend Lebanon against Israeli attacks and against an Israeli invasion. That is why they were created, and that is their primary objective. Anything wrong with that?

Kidman
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wilberhum
08-04-2006, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Exactly, 2 for 2. Actually, Hezbollah originally wanted to negociate fot the realease of the 8,000 + innocent palestinians they keep in their jails also.

Kidman
But you said:
Maybe give back the hostages of the lebanese civilians they have...
And surly every one of the 8,000 + palestinians are innocent. Da
The last exchange didn't stop this kidnapping. If they would have exchanged this time, it would not have stoped the next one. Meeting kidnapper's demands will ensure only one thing. There will be another kidnapping.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
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Kidman
08-04-2006, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

And surly every one of the 8,000 + palestinians are innocent. Da
The last exchange didn't stop this kidnapping. If they would have exchanged this time, it would not have stoped the next one.
out of the 8,000.. there are over 400 underage children as well.

Meeting kidnapper's demands will ensure only one thing. There will be another kidnapping.
You know what, i totally agree with you.. then tell Israel to stop kidnapping innocent lebanese civilians, and we wont have a problem :)
You say it as if Hezbollah is the one at fault... when they only respond out of retaliation to Israel.

Kidman
Reply

wilberhum
08-04-2006, 08:51 PM
You say it as if Hezbollah is the one at fault...
Then what do you think I meant when I said:
I have total empathy for the Lebanese people and no love for Israel.
Well let me make it clear, Israel is guilty of many atrocities. The list is long and horrifying. It is almost as long and horrifying as what has been done to them.
My point is what choice they have. When the enemies on both sides have a stated primary objective of destroying them? So I say again:
I only see two options. Seven million people pickup and scatter around the world or fight.
There are no “Good Guys” in this fight.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
Reply

lavikor201
08-04-2006, 08:59 PM
point is what choice they have. When the enemies on both sides have a stated primary objective of destroying them? So I say again:

I only see two options. Seven million people pickup and scatter around the world or fight.
Wilberhum. What an amazing post.

There is a lot of wisdom in those words
Reply

wilberhum
08-04-2006, 10:04 PM
lavikor201
Thanks. I try.

All: (From a man who has “No Dog in this Hunt”)

The problem is if you take 1 step back it time it is easy to see who is at fault. But then if you take 2 steps back, it changes, take 3 steps back and it changes again. So how many steps do you want to go back? Want to go back about 60 years? Then what would that salve today?

We can argue all day about who through the last stone, who through the first stone, who through the most stones, or who through the biggest stone. It all really doesn’t matter. Everyone needs to stop throwing stones.

If that doesn’t happen, my great grand children are going to be reading about this conflict in the “World News” section of the news paper. What we need is for them to only be able to read about this in the History books.

Total justice can never be achieved and 7 million people are not going to pack up and leave. We just need to do the best we can. Everyone needs to leave Israel alone and Israel needs to get out of the occupied terrorizes. But Israel can’t leave the occupied territories if they are going to become bases to terrorize Israel. So everyone needs to leave Israel alone.
It gets kind of circular, doesn’t it?

I’m convinced that Israel should never have been created, but it was. Pakistan should have never been created, but it was.
We don’t get to rewrite history, but we do have to live with it.

So let’s quit trying to right yesterday’s wrongs and create a better future.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
Reply

babybackribs
08-05-2006, 03:42 AM
Way of Life: Undisclosed
U.N.- Hezbollah Are Cowards, To Blame For Civilian Deaths - 1 Week Ago

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...ION=HOME&TEMPL ATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-07-24-18-23-02


Jul 24, 6:23 PM EDT

U.N. Exec Blames Hezbollah for Deaths

By LAUREN FRAYER
Associated Press Writer

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) -- The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

The militant group has built bunkers and tunnels near the Israeli border to shelter weapons and fighters, and its members easily blend in among civilians.

Jan Egeland spoke to reporters at Larnaca airport in Cyprus late Monday after visiting Lebanon to coordinate an international aid effort. On Sunday, he toured the rubble of Beirut's southern suburbs, a once-teeming Shiite district where Hezbollah had its headquarters.

During that visit, he condemned the killing and wounding of civilians by both sides and called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and "a violation of international humanitarian law."


On Monday, he had strong words for Hezbollah, which crossed into Israel, captured two soldiers and killed eight others on July 12, triggering fierce fighting.

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

"We need a cessation of hostilities because this is a war where civilians are paying the price," said Egeland, who was heading to Israel next.

At least 600,000 Lebanese have fled their homes, according to the World Health Organization. One estimate by Lebanon's finance minister putting the number at 750,000, nearly 20 percent of the population.


During his visit to Lebanon earlier Monday, Egeland issued an emergency appeal for $150 million to help Lebanon through the next three months. He told reporters in Beirut the money was needed to pay for food, health care, water and sanitation.

"Approximately 500,000 to 800,000 people have been affected by the conflict, of whom some have become displaced persons or refugees," a U.N. statement said.

The United Nations has contracted 100 trucks to deliver aid coming into Beirut around the country. Egeland said the U.N. hoped to send its first land convoy to Tyre on Wednesday. Similar convoys will be scheduled every second day after that. An international Red Cross convoy was expected in the city Monday.

Egeland said he was asking Israel for safe passage for aid ships to enter the northern port of Tripoli and the southern port of Tyre, which has been heavily bombarded. So far, Israel has loosened its sea blockade of Lebanon only to let ships in Beirut port.

"We're hopeful that in the course of this week, you'll see real progress on the ground. Lebanon has a right to be frustrated," he said.

He said the U.N. was also asking Israel to also guarantee safe passage throughout Lebanon.

Hundreds of thousands of refugees have flowed out of mainly Shiite regions - the south, the Bekaa and the crowded Shiite neighborhood of Beirut - crowding into cities including the southern port of Sidon, the remainder of Beirut and parts of the north and central mountains.

"We are particularly worried about the population in south Lebanon and the (eastern) Bekaa Valley. It's here that they're in the crossfire and from where they're being displaced," Egeland said.

Continued Israeli bombardment makes the aid mission risky.

"Only cessation of hostilities can make it safe for us and our humanitarian colleagues," Egeland said.

© 2006 The Associated Press.
Reply

Tania
08-05-2006, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
lavikor201
I’m convinced that Israel should never have been created, but it was. So let’s quit trying to right yesterday’s wrongs and create a better future.

[MAD]Stop the Hate![/MAD]
Israel didn't learn in this years to live there. And they are going from one mistakes to another. When the Palestine got back some of his land and were held elections the first reaction of israel government was to ask for banning the world help towards them. I heard even the palestinians moneys kept in israeli bank were closed from used.
When they will learn to treat well the neighbours i think they actually will can live there. The better future can't be build on power, arogance and sending the army beyond other countries borders.
Reply

nimrod
08-05-2006, 05:36 AM
Wilberhum "There are no “Good Guys” in this fight".

Stop the Hate!



I agree.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

guyabano
08-05-2006, 07:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
The are hiding in the mountains mainly... and other places :)
While you need thousands of words th give your point of view, I need a few lines:
Hezbollah are terrorits and have to be taken out. And yes, they hide behind civilians. It has no longer to be prooven, it is a fact, pictures have been provided as well as videos few threads ago !

Lebanon need peace as well as Israel, and I'm pretty sure, both sides also want it. BUt as long as Hezbollah is messing up this peace, it will go on !
Reply

HeiGou
08-05-2006, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Exactly, 2 for 2. Actually, Hezbollah originally wanted to negociate fot the realease of the 8,000 + innocent palestinians they keep in their jails also.
What are those two Lebanese men's names? And why are they in prison?

I am sure they would prefer to have 8000 Palestinians released, but what makes you think they are innocent?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
08-05-2006, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Oh yes, the hearing of the death of two souls that G-d put on this earth is great news...
I don't want to rattle you Lavikor, because we went rounds once before already... but there are a hell of alot more than two souls at stake here. And every one of them is precious.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
08-05-2006, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mara
but that would prove the fact Israel doesn't care about them either and they want something else.
They want a new beginning... that's all. They might have had that too, without all this fuss, but they were called a name they took offense to... kafir. It made them feel they had no place in their own family. So here we go again with the damn walls!

To complicate matters even more, one of the Israelites (the real ones) set a curse upon his tribe's land and sealed it with his own blood - something to the effect of: If this land is taken by the spilling of my blood, then my blood shall seal it. In short, anyone who dwells there is cursed so the spilling of blood for the sake of the land will become all they ever know. Well, that's what Azrael tells me.

Sigh....

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
08-05-2006, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I’m convinced that Israel should never have been created, but it was. Pakistan should have never been created, but it was.
We don’t get to rewrite history, but we do have to live with it.

So let’s quit trying to right yesterday’s wrongs and create a better future.
Nice words, but I disagree. I think the collapse of the Council of the Princes and Elders is what led to all this madness. All of the complaints are legitimate... none have ever been heard or resolved by agreement. There is no common ground between them to even make agreements.

I know I have a strange take on the problem, but these 'separate' tribes all belong to one family. Anyone with kids knows how rediculous things can get in a family, all the constant fighting and the endless squabbling... it's exhausting! I had one son I could have sworn was going to be the finish of me!!! Multiply that family to their families, and the generations thereof, and it can be... well, mind-blowing! I had to ask, where are these kids parents? I'm calling them all out of their hiding and then we're going to go over every damn one of these issues until there are none left! Maybe if we get through all of that people will think twice about making accusations again - because defending those accusations can cost you your entire lifetime!

When there was a council, it stood for PEACE - people had a place to bring their various arguments and disputes to, and this is how it worked:

Excerpt from my Book of Records - What Is Peace?:

Peace is holding your breath (very uncomfortable) and biting your tongue (also uncomfortable) until all the facts are in. Accusations can be made without harming Peace, but the person making the accusation has a duty to submit to the ensuing dialogue with their accused until BOTH parties agree completely (this can, and often does, take lifetimes to accomplish).

When either party (Accuser or Accused) breaks off the dialogue, Peace is shattered. More often than not, both parties seek agreement elsewhere, with others who were not involved in the original dispute. When enough Numb3rs are gathered, another argument begins... but the object isn't to engage until both sides are satisfied. The object at this point is destruction of the entire argument by destroying it's source (which can't actually be done).

Basically, to maintain Peace, you have to work for it, which means any conflicts made, have to be resolved, so if (for example) a father and son argue, they should be locked in a room together and not allowed out until one or the other submits. Resolving arguments, as we know, are physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausting! That, I feel, is why people don't resolve them. It's far easier to walk out and slam the door behind you, infect everyone who you come into contact with, and spread the disease like a plague.


The Council of the Princes and Elders was a way to safe-guard the people and allow disputes to be resolved, without humiliation. The issues were addressed in private and given dignity, and they were contained in a working frame, so they didn't spill out onto the streets and involve everyone! The results were then recorded and made official. That was Jerusalem!

The majority of the disputes today should be limited to the scholars, it's their responsibility to resolve the various interpretations of Shariah, but they're not doing that. I've collected quite a number of these disputes myself, but I have no place to bring them to be heard, and the scholars responsible for the opposing views won't agree to Assemble! I want a hearing on the issue of Azrael being called an Angel of Death. Thus far, I have seven parties who agree, two parties who don't and a thousand other parties who would prefer to govern their forum by answering lame questions about what constitutes legal sex.. over and over again! I could take on the scholars of the Taliban, who feel education should not be allowed... and, man, that would be a priviledge! But again, no Council... and no takers on the subject. I suppose, the young souls have an excuse. They don't remember how it was done... old school. But scholars are not young souls. And they're old enough to know better.

I suppose it would seem like a good idea to cut from the past and just start new, but if you do that, you have to be willing to abandon things like tradition which no one wants to do... and it shouldn't have to come down to that.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

I R Paki
08-05-2006, 11:37 PM
Pakistan should have never been created, but it was.
Your 1 person that disagrees with the whole population of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Hahaha...
Reply

wilberhum
08-07-2006, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by I R Paki
Your 1 person that disagrees with the whole population of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Hahaha...
Never met a Hindu that disagreed with me. And I know a lot. I lived/worked in Delhi for a while.
Of course I did not talk to the thousands that died in the mass migrations and violance that souranded it.
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
While you need thousands of words th give your point of view, I need a few lines:
Hezbollah are terrorits and have to be taken out. And yes, they hide behind civilians. It has no longer to be prooven, it is a fact, pictures have been provided as well as videos few threads ago !

Lebanon need peace as well as Israel, and I'm pretty sure, both sides also want it. BUt as long as Hezbollah is messing up this peace, it will go on !
Ok.. prove it then with these facts: Why out of all the civilians murdered by Israel, did they not find a single Hezbollah fighter amongst them?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???

hmmm... something to think about. You can make up those pictures anywhere, doesn't prove anything. Hezbollah has been planning this for years, and have underground tunnels that they travel in and know when and where to strike the Israeli forces. May God with be with them,

Kidman
Reply

MRR
08-07-2006, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Ok.. prove it then with these facts: Why out of all the civilians murdered by Israel, did they not find a single Hezbollah fighter amongst them?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???

hmmm... something to think about.
Yes, and only a little thought is needed, no? Not hard to think it through.
What does a hezbollah fighter look like? Do they have a big "H" tatooed to their foreheads? No. They wear civilian clothing. They want to blend in. They are cowards.
Think it through.
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MRR
Yes, and only a little thought is needed, no? Not hard to think it through.
What does a hezbollah fighter look like? Do they have a big "H" tatooed to their foreheads? No. They wear civilian clothing. They want to blend in. They are cowards.
Think it through.
Ok buddy... that's like going to a university, and wanting to kill only the teachers. You don't know who's a teacher or who's not a teacher so you just start killing everyone, even the young kids cause (they might be a teacher in disguise).

You sicken me with the way you view things. It's not that they "want to blend in." What do you want them to do? Come out of their holes, the few 2,000-4,000 of them and just get annaliated?

What i'm trying to prove is that they don't hide among civlians, they are not allowed to do that. So if Israel wants to "rid of them" then they have to come into Lebanon and find them, then kill them. Not bomb every hospital, school, residential area hoping that there was a hezbollah member amongst them.

Hezbollah has been in the planning of this for a long time now... they have their places to hide, they don't need to hide with civlians.

Do you get the point now?? Cowards, sounds like Israel are the only cowards here, if they want Hezbollah then come get them, don't use your bombs from high above to take out innocent civilians. How pathetic.

Kidman
Reply

MRR
08-07-2006, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
You sicken me with the way you view things. Kidman
And you sicken me with the way you view things and defend cowardly terrorists.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
What i'm trying to prove is that they don't hide among civlians, they are not allowed to do that.
Not allowed? By whom? So why do they continue to do so if they are not allowed?

format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Hezbollah has been in the planning of this for a long time now... they have their places to hide, they don't need to hide with civlians.
Yes they do, in residential high rises, private homes, neighborhood streets....

format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Do you get the point now?? Cowards, sounds like Israel are the only cowards here, if they want Hezbollah then come get them, don't use your bombs from high above to take out innocent civilians. How pathetic.

Kidman
Israel uses both air strikes and ground troops. Why would they not use the advantage they have? That would be foolish. Are you trying to say that if Hezbollah had an airforce they wouldn't do the same? Don't be foolish, of course they would. Hezbollah are no doubt cowards. Hiding in areas that they know will maximize civilian casualties to maximize the propaganda war against Israel. Pathetic.
Reply

Link
08-07-2006, 08:51 PM
Israelis are the cowards running away from the battlefield.


Hizbollah are brave warriors, all muslims see this, and inshallah it will inspire the umma to a near victory,
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MRR
And you sicken me with the way you view things and defend cowardly terrorists.
Ok.. you keep calling them that, when most of the world believes they are "Not Terrorists."


Not allowed? By whom? So why do they continue to do so if they are not allowed?
They don't, that's why in all the civilian killings you do not find Hezbollah fighters there. And not allowed by Hezbollah law. They are not allowed to mingle with civilians, unless they are ordered to go help them, in which they are not in fighting and do not take arms.

Yes they do, in residential high rises, private homes, neighborhood streets....
ha, you have no proof, cause there isn't any, just the propaganda any U.S or Israeli News source can give. Maybe the private homes, but away from civilians.

Israel uses both air strikes and ground troops. Why would they not use the advantage they have? That would be foolish. Are you trying to say that if Hezbollah had an airforce they wouldn't do the same? Don't be foolish, of course they would. Hezbollah are no doubt cowards. Hiding in areas that they know will maximize civilian casualties to maximize the propaganda war against Israel. Pathetic.
Ok, that would be fine if they were using their advantage to actually kill Hezbollah, not civilians!!! If Hezbollah had an airforce, they would never be like Israel and aim at Civilians.. they would aim at Israeli militia only. But of course, you believe that they are terrorists and will disagree. Only evidence i can show is the amount of civilians to soldiers that were killed in these battles, and the amount of rockets Hezbollah shot to the amount of killings that happened. Theres your proof, study the numbers.

You know you do not have a strong arguement, and basing your fact off your own judgements... then using words to try to tick me off or something, not working because i know what's really going on.

May Allah give the Hezbollah strength in their struggle against the heartless Israeli's.

Kidman
Reply

babybackribs
08-07-2006, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by babybackribs
Way of Life: Undisclosed
U.N.- Hezbollah Are Cowards, To Blame For Civilian Deaths - 1 Week Ago

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...ION=HOME&TEMPL ATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-07-24-18-23-02


Jul 24, 6:23 PM EDT

U.N. Exec Blames Hezbollah for Deaths

By LAUREN FRAYER
Associated Press Writer

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) -- The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.

The militant group has built bunkers and tunnels near the Israeli border to shelter weapons and fighters, and its members easily blend in among civilians.

Jan Egeland spoke to reporters at Larnaca airport in Cyprus late Monday after visiting Lebanon to coordinate an international aid effort. On Sunday, he toured the rubble of Beirut's southern suburbs, a once-teeming Shiite district where Hezbollah had its headquarters.

During that visit, he condemned the killing and wounding of civilians by both sides and called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and "a violation of international humanitarian law."


On Monday, he had strong words for Hezbollah, which crossed into Israel, captured two soldiers and killed eight others on July 12, triggering fierce fighting.

"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."

"We need a cessation of hostilities because this is a war where civilians are paying the price," said Egeland, who was heading to Israel next.

At least 600,000 Lebanese have fled their homes, according to the World Health Organization. One estimate by Lebanon's finance minister putting the number at 750,000, nearly 20 percent of the population.


During his visit to Lebanon earlier Monday, Egeland issued an emergency appeal for $150 million to help Lebanon through the next three months. He told reporters in Beirut the money was needed to pay for food, health care, water and sanitation.

"Approximately 500,000 to 800,000 people have been affected by the conflict, of whom some have become displaced persons or refugees," a U.N. statement said.

The United Nations has contracted 100 trucks to deliver aid coming into Beirut around the country. Egeland said the U.N. hoped to send its first land convoy to Tyre on Wednesday. Similar convoys will be scheduled every second day after that. An international Red Cross convoy was expected in the city Monday.

Egeland said he was asking Israel for safe passage for aid ships to enter the northern port of Tripoli and the southern port of Tyre, which has been heavily bombarded. So far, Israel has loosened its sea blockade of Lebanon only to let ships in Beirut port.

"We're hopeful that in the course of this week, you'll see real progress on the ground. Lebanon has a right to be frustrated," he said.

He said the U.N. was also asking Israel to also guarantee safe passage throughout Lebanon.

Hundreds of thousands of refugees have flowed out of mainly Shiite regions - the south, the Bekaa and the crowded Shiite neighborhood of Beirut - crowding into cities including the southern port of Sidon, the remainder of Beirut and parts of the north and central mountains.

"We are particularly worried about the population in south Lebanon and the (eastern) Bekaa Valley. It's here that they're in the crossfire and from where they're being displaced," Egeland said.

Continued Israeli bombardment makes the aid mission risky.

"Only cessation of hostilities can make it safe for us and our humanitarian colleagues," Egeland said.

© 2006 The Associated Press.



Seems Jan thinks Hezbollah are cowards, too. Any questions ?
Reply

MRR
08-07-2006, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
ha, you have no proof

You know you do not have a strong arguement, and basing your fact off your own judgements.
This is really no different from your own arguements. I admit I have offered nothing as proof, but then, neither have you.


format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
then using words to try to tick me off or something, not working because i know what's really going on.
Oh-oh. You know about the mass conspiracy and hidden agenda to first tick off internet kids in a forum, and then move to world domination and the abolishment of all organized religions in the world today!? Damn!? How did you find out?! Did I slip up somewhere?
Reply

babybackribs
08-07-2006, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by babybackribs
Seems Jan thinks Hezbollah are cowards, too. Any questions ?



Enough proof for me !
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by babybackribs
Enough proof for me !
I'm glad you are ignorant enough to be proved by such little evidence. So, was "Jan" there when Israeli's blew up the U.N headquaters??? When they targetted them for 6 hours with bombs, while the U.N was on the phone with them telling them to please let them go? Where 6 U.N members were killed by the Israeli attacks??????

Lol... "enough proof for me" haha, Actually, you can find more articles like that also... doesn't prove anything, unless your ignorant... Why don't you go to Lebanon and find out for yourself, go to the residential areas, and out of the million people you do find, let me know how many of them were Hezbollah soldiers. Fact is, that you will not find them.

Kidman
Reply

Kidman
08-07-2006, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MRR
This is really no different from your own arguements. I admit I have offered nothing as proof, but then, neither have you.
I agree... I can show you articles of people saying that there were no Hezbollah among all the civilian area's that were destroyed, and you can show me articles of Israel saying that they have killed 300 Hezbollah fighters among the 900 + civilians they killed. So, we can keep arguing, and you keep calling Hezbollah cowards, and I keep calling the Israeli cowards, and it wont go farther then that. Lets see what develops in the coming days instead of bickering pointless back and forth.

Oh-oh. You know about the mass conspiracy and hidden agenda to first tick off internet kids in a forum, and then move to world domination and the abolishment of all organized religions in the world today!? Damn!? How did you find out?! Did I slip up somewhere?
haha... good one.

Kidman
Reply

babybackribs
08-08-2006, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
I'm glad you are ignorant enough to be proved by such little evidence. So, was "Jan" there when Israeli's blew up the U.N headquaters??? When they targetted them for 6 hours with bombs, while the U.N was on the phone with them telling them to please let them go? Where 6 U.N members were killed by the Israeli attacks??????

Lol... "enough proof for me" haha, Actually, you can find more articles like that also... doesn't prove anything, unless your ignorant... Why don't you go to Lebanon and find out for yourself, go to the residential areas, and out of the million people you do find, let me know how many of them were Hezbollah soldiers. Fact is, that you will not find them.

Kidman


The fact that Israel shelled a U.N. post has nothing to do with the U.N. saying Hezbollah are cowards, which they are, for hiding amongst civilians. Try to keep up, genius. And I don't need to go to any hole like Lebanon, for any reason. I can afford to go to nicer places.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
08-08-2006, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Link
Israelis are the cowards running away from the battlefield.

Hizbollah are brave warriors, all muslims see this, and inshallah it will inspire the umma to a near victory,
Some times I worry because of what I see happening.

The Mujahedeen in Iraq fight on their own, backed only in secret... but nothing up-front to demonstrate they are loved and provided for.

Hezbollah are fighting on their own, backed only in secret... but nothing up-front to show they are loved and provided for.

Why is this? Why are these fighters being left to battle on their own? I mean, don't get me wrong. I was touched by the news that the Arab League banded together to contest the portions of the draft resolution that they felt left Lebanon vulnerable, but they're not really there where Labanon needs them. Not one Arab country offered to send troops to support Hezbollah or Lebanon. Why?

Israel could snap it's fingers and presto - a flock of countries will offer to send in "peace-keeping" troops to help the situation.

This is just one of the many things I question. The Muslims are losing countries and land one after the other... because one Muslim country doesn't actually care about what happens to another Muslim country (except in secret). The U.S. (and allies) are splitting the armies up and luring them into different battles so they spend all their weapons caches before any unified front can be established. By the time Al Shami realizes these aren't different wars and they have to unite, there won't be enough fighters or weapons left to do the job.

In short, bravery and stupidity are not a good mix. Doesn't anyone there play chess?

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Kidman
08-08-2006, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by babybackribs
The fact that Israel shelled a U.N. post has nothing to do with the U.N. saying Hezbollah are cowards, which they are, for hiding amongst civilians. Try to keep up, genius.

Ya, i bet she wasn't there when the real cowards were bombing the place... just like you have never been there or heard about what's going on first hand from a person that was there. When interviewing "those" U.N members that were actually there during this attack, you can say that they wouldn't agree with lil Jan over there. So ok... you found one U.N person to say that she thinks Hezbollah are cowards, and because of that "it is proven that Hezbollah are officially cowards" ...lol... thats the most ignorant thing anyone has ever posted on this whole forumn.

When Bush said there are WMD's in Iraq, and Saddam is affiliated with Osama Bin Laden, did you say "oh, Bush said it, so that's enough proof for me"?? lol...

And I don't need to go to any hole like Lebanon, for any reason. I can afford to go to nicer places.
Good for you, but don't talk until you have been there yourself or really know what's going on.

Kidman
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
08-08-2006, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Ok.. prove it then with these facts: Why out of all the civilians murdered by Israel, did they not find a single Hezbollah fighter amongst them?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???

Kidman
An excellent point, but Hezbollah have interfered in my work to restore the northern kingdom of Israel to Palestine. So has Hamas. It seems a shame since we were both working for the interest of the Palestinian people, only my choice of weapon wouldn't have shed any blood... just brain cells.

Ninth Scribe
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guyabano
08-08-2006, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
ok, you can post 5 pictures where there are supposedly Hezbollah surrounded by civilians? Please dont post the ones where they are helping the families in the east, that is not hiding...

Also, i can post hundreds of pictures where you will not see one civilian in sight, but what will that do?

You can believe what you want... Hezbollah, the ones trying to protect the Lebanese people from the Israeli attacks are hiding behind them... ya, sounds right no?

Kidman
Ok, so please post some here of these pictures ! I want to see !
Many pictures have been posted to proove, Hezbollah use cilivians as shields, but I didn't see ONLY ONE single picture, where Hezbollah doesn't do it !
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babybackribs
08-08-2006, 08:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Ya, i bet she wasn't there when the real cowards were bombing the place... just like you have never been there or heard about what's going on first hand from a person that was there. When interviewing "those" U.N members that were actually there during this attack, you can say that they wouldn't agree with lil Jan over there. So ok... you found one U.N person to say that she thinks Hezbollah are cowards, and because of that "it is proven that Hezbollah are officially cowards" ...lol... thats the most ignorant thing anyone has ever posted on this whole forumn.

When Bush said there are WMD's in Iraq, and Saddam is affiliated with Osama Bin Laden, did you say "oh, Bush said it, so that's enough proof for me"?? lol...



Good for you, but don't talk until you have been there yourself or really know what's going on.

Kidman


First, Jan is a guy. And yes, he was there when he issued that statement. And that 'one person' is the U.N. Chief of Humanitarian Aid. Hardly someone who doesn't know what's going on. Also, W.M.D.'s WERE found. G.W.B. was RIGHT !!! 500 rounds on sarin gas ARE W.M.D.'s. And I'm not too sure you know what you're talking about, out there in Arizona.
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Kidman
08-08-2006, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Ok, so please post some here of these pictures ! I want to see !
Many pictures have been posted to proove, Hezbollah use cilivians as shields, but I didn't see ONLY ONE single picture, where Hezbollah doesn't do it !







Then there's these videos... watch the parts when they are fighting, see if you see innocent people around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1e3zWQmM08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpCWfq_1AO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4oJHnxbPsI

...And there's tons more, just go to www.youtube.com and type in Hezbollah. Then watch the videos, go ahead and watch every single one. I guarantee when you see them actually fighting, not just firing randomly cause they do that during parades and stuff, but when they are actually fighting, see if their are any women or children or innocent people there.

Kidman
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babybackribs
08-08-2006, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
they are still fighting ...


...from behind womens skirts.
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Looking4Peace
08-08-2006, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by babybackribs
...from behind womens skirts.


lol yea right
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babybackribs
08-08-2006, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Crystal4Peace
lol yea right


They do. From behind old ladies and kids.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-08-2006, 10:04 PM
no one knows anything about hezbullah, whos seen them, whos met them? NOONE, lavikor, wilberhum, geronimo etc why dont you go meet hizbullah before believing in a few pictures.

Its funny how some people act so innocent/intelligent then dont realise that wars are run by lies !
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wilberhum
08-08-2006, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mazed
no one knows anything about hezbullah, whos seen them, whos met them? NOONE, lavikor, wilberhum, geronimo etc why dont you go meet hizbullah before believing in a few pictures.

Its funny how some people act so innocent/intelligent then dont realise that wars are run by lies !
You suffer from "self Imposed Ignorance". I didn't see the moon landings either.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-08-2006, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
You suffer from "self Imposed Ignorance". I didn't see the moon landings either.
And many have documented that the moon landings were also fake but i dont know the truth of it.

Ignorance, no no you see mr.arrogant ignorance would be acting like i know that which is clearly wrong and me being stubborn to accept the truth HOWEVER i actually claimed that I DONT KNOW and NEITHER DO ANY OF US therefore we should stop MOCKING and JEERING as it just seems stupid and disgusting !

i'll quote myself again:

no one knows anything about hezbullah, whos seen them, whos met them? NOONE, lavikor, wilberhum, geronimo etc why dont you go meet hizbullah before believing in a few pictures. !
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Looking4Peace
08-08-2006, 10:11 PM
its funny babybackribs, you act like you been there, unless you have please shut up, i know someone who was caught in that mess and she couldnt say anything bad about anyone but the IDF who were bombing them, go there since you seem to be so opinionated!
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wilberhum
08-08-2006, 10:15 PM
And many have documented that the moon landings were also fake but i dont know the truth of it.
That explains a lot. Your lack of knowledge because you weren't there must be staggering.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-08-2006, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
That explains a lot. Your lack of knowledge because you weren't there must be staggering.
no if every document was in favour of it being a fact that indeed there was a moon landing then sure, i accept it. But a lot of people have said otherwise, sure it could be rumours, infact i dont kno why on earth anyone would make up a moon landing so i lean more towards it happened.
but i always say, its not a certainty... because it just isnt :)
call me a skeptic if u want :rollseyes
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wilberhum
08-08-2006, 10:21 PM
If you can't spot a Conspiracy theory then you need to seak help.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-08-2006, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If you can't spot a Conspiracy theory then you need to seak help.
*sigh* like i sed it seems more lke that the moon landing was real therefore i lean more towards that. sheesh man, you need to stop acting so stuck up and all knowing :rollseyes
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Kidman
08-08-2006, 10:22 PM
Ok, this is getting dumb... just back and forth bickering. Time for it to be closed, just some people want to believe what they say and don't want to look to the truth of the matter...

Like i said, you can look at the few pictures you have, or look at the ones i provided, or the many videos on youtube or whatever. But, you will never find on like this:



Kidman
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babybackribs
08-08-2006, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Crystal4Peace
...babybackribs... please shut up,...


No, why don't you shut up, girl. And who is 'Kidman' to say this thread should be closed. Who died and left him Mullah ? Maybe we like to bicker. If you don't like it, go away.
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