Ansar Al-'Adl
08-06-2006, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by
QuranStudy
Muslims believed that the Torah has been distorted from its original form and that the original Torah is lost?
Jews today claim otherwise.
Who is right? How was the Torah distorted? And what evidence is available that shows that the original Torah is non-existant like the original Bible?
First off, the Torah
is part of the 'Bible'. The Bible of Christians consists of a New Testament and an Old testament. The latter consists of the Torah [Pentateuch], Nevi'im [Prophets], and K'tuvim [Writings].
Secondly, Muslims believe that the revelations sent to the Jews have not been preserved and have been altered/lost.
Thirdly, you can read
this book by Dr. M. M. Al-Azami which contains a detailed analysis of the textual integrity of the scrptures of Christianity, Judaism and Islam; it cites and evaluates the various views and arguments. Therein you will find no shortage of evidence.
Fourthly, there are a great many non-muslim historians and researchers who question the OT's textual integrity. Just as a sample of such views I will quote a very brief excerpt:
William G. Dever, Professor of Near Eastern Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona, presents another view. He states that the Biblical sources were edited in the late Persian (fifth-fourth centuries BCE) and Hellenistic (third-second centuries BCE) eras. And there are others such as Tom Thomson of Copenhagen, his colleague Niels Peter Lemche, Philip Davies of Sheffield, "and a number of other scholars, both American and European, who believe that the Hebrew Bible was not only edited in the Persian/Hellenistic periods but was written then." [fn. H. Shanks, "Is this Man a Bibliucal Archaeologist?", Biblical Archeology Review, July/August 1996, vol. 22, no. 4,p. 35]
The field of biblical criticism is a very detailed field and there are a number of works you can refer to on this.
Replycool_jannah
08-07-2006, 04:42 AM
"And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them
and made hard their hearts. They change words from their places and
have abandoned a good part of the message that was sent to them.
And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of
them. But forgive them and overlook(their misdeed). Verily! Allah
loves the kindly". The Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):13.
"O Messenger!(Mohammad) Do no be grieved by those who vie with
one another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths:
"We believe" but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews: of them are
those who listen eagerly to lies -listener to others who have not come
to you. They change the words from their places; they say: If you are
given this then take it, but if you are not given this then beware! He
whom Allah dooms unto sin, you (by your efforts) will avail him
naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the will of Allah is that
He cleanse not their hearts; for them there is a disgrace in this world,
and in the Hereafter a great torment". The Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):41.
The Jews have, from one generation to another, handed down their
Old Testament, as the faultless words of Moses (pbuh) and the
prophets. The "Old testament" is made up of the "Torah" (Tawrat),
(which is also called "the Pentateuch"), and the "books of the
prophets".
The "Torah" consists of the first five books of the Old Testament.
They are believed by the Jews to have been written by Moses (pbuh).
These five books are: "Genesis", "Exodus", "Leviticus", "Numbers",
and "Deuteronomy". After the Christians decided to incorporate the
Old Testament into their Bible, they began to study these books in
great detail..
For countless ages, the only book of history available to Christians
and Jews was the Old Testament. When someone wanted to know
what happened in the past, they would go back and study the Old
Testament to find the answer. New theories about history literally
lived and died by their conformance to what the Old Testament
taught. Then the discrepancies began to be noticed.
Once mankind began to study the OT in detail, comparing the various
passages which referred to the same topic in order to obtain as much
detail as possible, they began to notice conflicting accounts of many
matters as well as other problems. For instance, in the eleventh
century, it was noticed that the list of Edomite kings in Genesis 36
names kings who lived long after Moses was dead. Then people
began to notice such statements as "to this day" something is true,
which implies that the author was looking back at these matters
through history and has seen that they have endured.
After this, it was noticed that in the beginning verses of the OT
manuscripts, Deuteronomy says: "These are the words that Moses
spoke to the children of Israel across the Jordan...". They noticed
that the words "across the Jordan" refers to people who are on the
opposite side of the Jordan river to the author. But the alleged
author, Moses himself, was never supposed to have been in Israel in
his life.
It was also noticed that Moses speaks in detail in Deuteronomy 34:5-
10 about how he died and where he was buried. Moses also calls
himself the most humble man on earth in Numbers 12:3 (would the
most humble man on earth call himself the most humble man on
earth?). In Deuteronomy 34:10 we read "And there arose not a
prophet since in Israel like unto Moses". This also implies that the
author was looking back at Moses through history a long time after
Moses's death. Now the flood gates were opened and countless other
discrepancies began to show up.
In the beginning, it was claimed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch
(Five "books of Moses") and anyone contesting this fact would be
severely punished or worse. However, when these matters started to
become well known, it became necessary to find explanations. For
example, the first explanation presented for the verses referring to the
death of Moses was that Moses (pbuh) had written his books, but that
later prophets, as well as "inspired" scribes (who could also be
considered prophets), had later on added on a couple of lines here and
there. In this manner the text remained 100% the "inspiration" of
God. This explanation, however, did not stand up to scrutiny because
the style and literary characteristics of the verses are the same
throughout. For instance, the verses which describe the death and
burial of Moses exhibit the same literary characteristics as the verses
before and after them. Thus, they must have been written by the same
person.
cool_jannah
08-07-2006, 04:47 AM
The Doublets!
The trend became to explain any and all discrepancies
through abstractism and elaborate interpretations, or through the
introduction of additional narrative details that did not appear in the
biblical text. Around this time, a startling new discovery was made.
It was noticed that the stories in the five books of Moses were made
up of doublets. A doublet is a case of one story being told twice.
Even in the English translation of the Bible, the doublets are
noticeable. These doublets have been masterfully intertwined so that
they become one narrative.
For example, there are doublets of the creation of the world, the
covenant between God and Abraham, the naming of Isaac, Abraham's
claim that his wife Sarah was his sister, the story of Jacob's journey to
Mesopotamia, Jacob's revelation at Beth-El,.......and on and on. In
many cases these doublets actually contradict one another. The
apologists once again jumped up with an explanation in hand. They
claimed that the doublets were complementary and not contradictive.
It was claimed that they came to teach us a lesson by their "apparent"
contradiction. However, this claim did not hold water for long. The
reason is that not long after, it was discovered that when the doublets
were separated into two separate accounts, each account was almost
always consistent about the name of the deity that it used. One would
always refer to God as Yahweh/Jehovah. This document was called
"J". The other always referred to Him as Elohim(God). It was called
"E". There were various other literary characteristics which were
then found to be common to one group or the other. It became
obvious that someone had taken two separate accounts of the ministry
of Moses (pbuh), cut them up, and then woven them together quite
masterfully so that their actions would not be discovered until
countless centuries later.
Once this startling discovery was made, the Old Testament was once
again placed under the scrutiny of scholars and it was discovered that
the Pentateuch was not made up of two major source documents but
FOUR. It was discovered that some stories were not only doublets,
but triplets. Additional literary characteristics were identified for
these documents. The third source was called P (for Priestly), and the
fourth D (for Deuteronomy). In the end it was concluded that the
first four "books of Moses" were the result of the merging of three
separate accounts which were called J, E, and P, and the book of
Deuteronomy was found to be a separate account which was called
D. The person (or persons) who collected and intertwined these
sources was called "The Redactor". Let us have a look at an example
of these doublets from Genesis 6:5 to 8:22. The Jehovah(J) text is in
regular type, THE PRIESTLY(P) IN CAPITALS:
Genesis 6:
-------------
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in
the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was
only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have
created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the
creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have
made them.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Genesis 6:9 THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH:
NOAH WAS A JUST MAN AND PERFECT IN HIS
GENERATIONS, AND NOAH WALKED WITH GOD.
Genesis 6:10 AND NOAH BEGAT THREE SONS, SHEM, HAM,
AND JAPHETH.
Genesis 6:11 THE EARTH ALSO WAS CORRUPT BEFORE
GOD, AND THE EARTH WAS FILLED WITH VIOLENCE.
Genesis 6:12 AND GOD LOOKED UPON THE EARTH, AND,
BEHOLD, IT WAS CORRUPT; FOR ALL FLESH HAD
CORRUPTED HIS WAY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:13 AND GOD SAID UNTO NOAH, THE END OF ALL
FLESH IS COME BEFORE ME; FOR THE EARTH IS FILLED
WITH VIOLENCE THROUGH THEM; AND, BEHOLD, I WILL
DESTROY THEM WITH THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:14 MAKE THEE AN ARK OF GOPHER WOOD;
ROOMS SHALT THOU MAKE IN THE ARK, AND SHALT
PITCH IT WITHIN AND WITHOUT WITH PITCH.
Genesis 6:15 AND THIS IS THE FASHION WHICH THOU
SHALT MAKE IT OF: THE LENGTH OF THE ARK SHALL BE
THREE HUNDRED CUBITS, THE BREADTH OF IT FIFTY
CUBITS, AND THE HEIGHT OF IT THIRTY CUBITS.
Genesis 6:16 A WINDOW SHALT THOU MAKE TO THE ARK,
AND IN A CUBIT SHALT THOU FINISH IT ABOVE; AND THE
DOOR OF THE ARK SHALT THOU SET IN THE SIDE
THEREOF; WITH LOWER, SECOND, AND THIRD STORIES
SHALT THOU MAKE IT.
Genesis 6:17 AND, BEHOLD, I, EVEN I, DO BRING A FLOOD
OF WATERS UPON THE EARTH, TO DESTROY ALL FLESH,
WHEREIN IS THE BREATH OF LIFE, FROM UNDER HEAVEN;
AND EVERY THING THAT IS IN THE EARTH SHALL DIE.
Genesis 6:18 BUT WITH THEE WILL I ESTABLISH MY
COVENANT; AND THOU SHALT COME INTO THE ARK,
THOU, AND THY SONS, AND THY WIFE, AND THY SONS'
WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 6:19 AND OF EVERY LIVING THING OF ALL FLESH,
TWO OF EVERY SORT SHALT THOU BRING INTO THE ARK,
TO KEEP THEM ALIVE WITH THEE; THEY SHALL BE MALE
AND FEMALE.
Genesis 6:20 OF FOWLS AFTER THEIR KIND, AND OF
CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, OF EVERY CREEPING THING
OF THE EARTH AFTER HIS KIND, TWO OF EVERY SORT
SHALL COME UNTO THEE, TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.
Genesis 6:21 AND TAKE THOU UNTO THEE OF ALL FOOD
THAT IS EATEN, AND THOU SHALT GATHER IT TO THEE;
AND IT SHALL BE FOR FOOD FOR THEE, AND FOR THEM.
Genesis 6:22 THUS DID NOAH; ACCORDING TO ALL THAT
GOD COMMANDED HIM, SO DID HE.
Genesis 7:
-------------
Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy
house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this
generation.
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens,
the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the
male and his female.
Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the
female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the
earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I
have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord
commanded him.
Genesis 7:6 AND NOAH WAS SIX HUNDRED YEARS OLD
WHEN THE FLOOD OF WATERS WAS UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his
sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Genesis 7:8 OF CLEAN BEASTS, AND OF BEASTS THAT ARE
NOT CLEAN, AND OF FOWLS, AND OF EVERY THING THAT
CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH,
Genesis 7:9 THERE WENT IN TWO AND TWO UNTO NOAH
INTO THE ARK, THE MALE AND THE FEMALE, AS GOD
HAD COMMANDED NOAH.
Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of
the flood were upon the earth.
Genesis 7:11 IN THE SIX HUNDREDTH YEAR OF NOAH'S
LIFE, IN THE SECOND MONTH, THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF
THE MONTH, THE SAME DAY WERE ALL THE FOUNTAINS
OF THE GREAT DEEP BROKEN UP, AND THE WINDOWS OF
HEAVEN WERE OPENED.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty
nights.
Genesis 7:13 IN THE SELFSAME DAY ENTERED NOAH, AND
SHEM, AND HAM, AND JAPHETH, THE SONS OF NOAH, AND
NOAH'S WIFE, AND THE THREE WIVES OF HIS SONS WITH
THEM, INTO THE ARK;
Genesis 7:14 THEY, AND EVERY BEAST AFTER HIS KIND,
AND ALL THE CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, AND EVERY
CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH
AFTER HIS KIND, AND EVERY FOWL AFTER HIS KIND,
EVERY BIRD OF EVERY SORT.
Genesis 7:15 AND THEY WENT IN UNTO NOAH INTO THE
ARK, TWO AND TWO OF ALL FLESH, WHEREIN IS THE
BREATH OF LIFE.
Genesis 7:16 AND THEY THAT WENT IN, WENT IN MALE
AND FEMALE OF ALL FLESH, AS GOD HAD COMMANDED
HIM: and the Lord shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the
waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the
earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly
upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth;
and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were
covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the
mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 AND ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON
THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF
BEAST, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH
UPON THE EARTH, AND EVERY MAN:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that
was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was
upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping
things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the
earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in
the ark.
Genesis 7:24 AND THE WATERS PREVAILED UPON THE
EARTH AN HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS.
Genesis 8:
-------------
Genesis 8:1 AND GOD REMEMBERED NOAH, AND EVERY
LIVING THING, AND ALL THE CATTLE THAT WAS WITH
HIM IN THE ARK: AND GOD MADE A WIND TO PASS OVER
THE EARTH, AND THE WATERS ASSWAGED;
Genesis 8:2 THE FOUNTAINS ALSO OF THE DEEP AND THE
WINDOWS OF HEAVEN WERE STOPPED, and the rain from
heaven was restrained;
Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually:
AND AFTER THE END OF THE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS
THE WATERS WERE ABATED.
Genesis 8:4 AND THE ARK RESTED IN THE SEVENTH
MONTH, ON THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH,
UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ARARAT.
Genesis 8:5 AND THE WATERS DECREASED CONTINUALLY
UNTIL THE TENTH MONTH: IN THE TENTH MONTH, ON
THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, WERE THE TOPS OF THE
MOUNTAINS SEEN.
Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah
opened the window of the ark which he had made:
Genesis 8:7 AND HE SENT FORTH A RAVEN, WHICH WENT
FORTH TO AND FRO, UNTIL THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters
were abated from off the face of the ground;
Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and
she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of
the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled
her in unto him into the ark.
Genesis 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent
forth the dove out of the ark;
Genesis 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in
her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters
were abated from off the earth.
Genesis 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the
dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
Genesis 8:13 AND IT CAME TO PASS IN THE SIX
HUNDREDTH AND FIRST YEAR, IN THE FIRST MONTH, THE
FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH: and Noah removed the covering of the
ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Genesis 8:14 AND IN THE SECOND MONTH, ON THE SEVEN
AND TWENTIETH DAY OF THE MONTH, WAS THE EARTH
DRIED.
Genesis 8:15 AND GOD SPAKE UNTO NOAH, SAYING,
Genesis 8:16 GO FORTH OF THE ARK, THOU, AND THY WIFE,
AND THY SONS, AND THY SONS' WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 8:17 BRING FORTH WITH THEE EVERY LIVING
THING THAT IS WITH THEE, OF ALL FLESH, BOTH OF
FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING
THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH; THAT THEY MAY
BREED ABUNDANTLY IN THE EARTH, AND BE FRUITFUL,
AND MULTIPLY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:18 AND NOAH WENT FORTH, AND HIS SONS, AND
HIS WIFE, AND HIS SONS' WIVES WITH HIM:
Genesis 8:19 EVERY BEAST, EVERY CREEPING THING, AND
EVERY FOWL, AND WHATSOEVER CREEPETH UPON THE
EARTH, AFTER THEIR KINDS, WENT FORTH OUT OF THE
ARK.
Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of
every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings
on the altar.
Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said
in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I
again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and
cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not
cease
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