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QuranStudy
08-06-2006, 09:11 PM
I honestly think we are corrupting Islam.

We should NEVER interwine Islam with our political agenda like Iran does.

Here are some points I was thinking for the past few days:

1.) Why are we even fighting with Israel? The Israelis, though not perfect, are generally fair people and I don’t see any gain from fighting them.

2.) I am 100% sure most members of Hezbollah and Al-Quaeda know extremely little about Islam. in Islam, knowledge is holier than a martyr’s blood. Shouldn’t we devote out time actually worshipping and learning about Islam than fighting a futile and unjustified battle?

3.) It’s relatively easy to root for your fellow Muslim brothers when you’re in a Western society not living in the conditions faced by Israel and Palestine.

4.) NEVER, and I mean NEVER, should we use Islam for our political agenda. What we are doing is not only un-Islamic, it is something out Prophet has never done. If we make treaties with our Jewish brethrens, then we are obliged to commit to it.

5.) It was the JEWS, and not out selfish Arab brothers, who actually provided land for Palestinians, though little. From what I remember, Jordan took parts of Palestine as well.

6.) Let’s be honest. One of the reasons for the hostility is because we are blindly following certain groups due to religious affiliation. Our Prophet treated Jews kindly, and yet were are the naïve Muslims propagating suicide bombings and killing people who could care less of our affairs.

7.) This whole Jihad and martyrdom act is stupid. Our religion is not being attacked by Israelis. Why are we making this a religious agenda?? Live and let live. Follow the Quran and quit being hypocrites!!! Because of our associating Islam with our futile and greedy ambitions, we are not corrupting Islam, we are giving this glorious faith a bad name as well.

8.) A wise Muslim would stay out of other people’s business. Probably Palestine has been taken unjustly, but what does that have to do with Islam? Why is Iran involved with all this? I understand that Israel has a long way to go, but unless we become Islamic and civilized, they will always fear. And fear brings out the worst of humanity in such situations.

If you disagree with anything, please post explaining why.

Salaam.
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 09:14 PM
Great post. Religion should be left out of this conflict.
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afriend
08-06-2006, 09:18 PM
:bravo:

I stressed point 2 a few months ago...ended up getting closed :(
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Helena
08-06-2006, 09:22 PM
mashalah great post bro.....

totally agree wid ya....:)
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SalafiFemaleJih
08-06-2006, 09:22 PM
I don't agree with point 2 and I believe Its not good to speak without knowledge.

Its better to look into ourselves. I undertand about hezbollah being shia group, and all that but Al qaeda? ahh now u are going to tell me u are againt Mujahideen.

Only Allah knows their intentions and THEY MIGHT have more knowledge of deen than any1 on here.

-In support of Al qaeda

Wasalmaualaykum wa rahmatullah.
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SalafiFemaleJih
08-06-2006, 09:23 PM
History is ONLY WRITTEN BY THE BLOOD OF SHUHADAH AND WITH THE INK OF SCHOLARS.

'NUff said.

WAsalmaualaykum wa rhamatullah.
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QuranStudy
08-06-2006, 09:30 PM
I don't agree with point 2 and I believe Its not good to speak without knowledge.

Its better to look into ourselves. I undertand about hezbollah being shia group, and all that but Al qaeda? ahh now u are going to tell me u are againt Mujahideen.
There are various rules pertaining to jihad. For instance, ISLAM has to be attacked. As far as I know, Israel has no intention of ending Islam. Also, a Jihadist must take the permission of his parents to even engage in the act, even if the parents are non-Muslim. There are A LOT of rules that mainstream, uneducated Muslims are not aware of. Killing innocent people is a sin, and nobody can deny it.

Only Allah knows their intentions and THEY MIGHT have more knowledge of deen than any1 on here.
Please stop being so closed-minded. Do you see Israelis deliberately bombing mosques and killing Muslims? IRONICALLY, our own Muslim brothers are doing just that!! Al-Quaeda killed their numerous Muslim brother because of sectarian differences, and such a division was forbidden in Islam to begin with.

Quit fooling yourself.
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 09:32 PM
Is breaking up into sects like sunni, shia' against islamic law?
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QuranStudy
08-06-2006, 09:34 PM
Is breaking up into sects like sunni, shia' against islamic law?
Yes, the Quran forbids it.
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SalafiFemaleJih
08-06-2006, 09:35 PM
I'm not going to say a word against Al qaeda.

later,

Salaam
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מדינת ישׂראל
08-06-2006, 09:36 PM
I'm not going to say a word against Al qaeda.
So you agree with the killing of innocent? +o(
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Looking4Peace
08-06-2006, 09:37 PM
I think it is the prophet warned against doing that, I just consider myself muslim when people ask me if im sunni or otherwise i just look at them like they have 3 heads and i think they get my message.
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Dahir
08-06-2006, 10:26 PM
OMG!! Excellent Post!!! BRAVO!!! Best. Post. Yet!

Loaded post!

I just wish people wouldn't come down so hard on me for being pro-Israeli, and realize that guerilla groups who use Islam for agenda aren't always right. :heated:
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Skillganon
08-06-2006, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by QuranStudy
There are various rules pertaining to jihad. For instance, ISLAM has to be attacked. As far as I know, Israel has no intention of ending Islam.
Not really. Your statement is not entirely incorrect. You cannot attack a way of life by force. What is being attacked is our fellow muslim, the state founded on bought 3% land" became around 78% fully owned. It has been founded on by a method that goes against Islam itself. Even by their own religion.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Also, a Jihadist must take the permission of his parents to even engage in the act, even if the parents are non-Muslim. There are A LOT of rules that mainstream, uneducated Muslims are not aware of. Killing innocent people is a sin, and nobody can deny it.
They are called muslim who are on Jihad. and nope they don't have to take parents permission but it is preferable to ask in politeness and let them know if it is possible. The loyalty is to Allah (swt) and fighting for the part of the body that is suffering is permissable. They fighting has to be accordance with the Quran and the sunnah importantly and yes you are right people should study the Quran and the sunnah, so they are less likely to stray and do wrong.


Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Please stop being so closed-minded. Do you see Israelis deliberately bombing mosques and killing Muslims? IRONICALLY, our own Muslim brothers are doing just that!! Al-Quaeda killed their numerous Muslim brother because of sectarian differences, and such a division was forbidden in Islam to begin with.
Quit fooling yourself.
Deliberately bombing mosque, are you suggesting they have undeliberately bombed mosque, and you should really be more well acquinted with history.
Can you stop with the al-qaeda rethoric. and can you stop labelling everyone al-qaeda's you should be careful where you get the source, it may not be true, and you shoukd not apply this to every group who are fighting the oppressors, and their allies even if they are muslim. Read the Quran, it should give you a better point of perception.
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
You cannot attack a way of life by force. What is being attacked is our fellow muslim, the state founded on bought 3% land" became around 78% fully owned. It has been founded on by a method that goes against Islam itself. Even by their own religion.
About 20% of Israel are Muslims. I don’t see the Israelis killing them ruthlessly. This is no war on Islam, get over it. Israel may be an illegal state, but making this an issue as personal as religion (which is indeed not the case) is delusional.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
They are called muslim who are on Jihad. and nope they don't have to take parents permission but it is preferable to ask in politeness and let them know if it is possible. The loyalty is to Allah (swt) and fighting for the part of the body that is suffering is permissable. They fighting has to be accordance with the Quran and the sunnah importantly and yes you are right people should study the Quran and the sunnah, so they are less likely to stray and do wrong.
You are the epitome of the type of Muslim I was talking about. Of course you need parent’s permission, even if they’re non-Muslim. Here is a source.

What they are doing is not “jihad” at all. Not only are they killing innocent people, they are also ruining their chance to educate themselves what Islam is really is about.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Deliberately bombing mosque, are you suggesting they have undeliberately bombed mosque, and you should really be more well acquinted with history.
What evidence do you have that Israelis are bombing mosques deliberately? I challenge you to provide me with credible proof.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Can you stop with the al-qaeda rethoric. and can you stop labelling everyone al-qaeda's you should be careful where you get the source, it may not be true, and you shoukd not apply this to every group who are fighting the oppressors, and their allies even if they are muslim. Read the Quran, it should give you a better point of perception.
Where have I labeled everyone belonging to Al-Quaeda? Be careful with the source?? There are pictures and witnesses that unanimously claim that mosques were bombed by fellow Muslims!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/...b.0616iraq.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/st...799231,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13727849/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0121-09.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Thank you Al-Quaeda…for nothing.

Also, I do read Quran, and I am in the process of memorizing. I am not going to stand silent support killers because they are Muslims and use their faith to stir up hate. Sorry, I’m on Allah’s side.
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Skillganon
08-07-2006, 12:47 AM
Assalam Bro.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
About 20% of Israel are Muslims. I don’t see the Israelis killing them ruthlessly. This is no war on Islam, get over it. Israel may be an illegal state, but making this an issue as personal as religion (which is indeed not the case) is delusional.
Why would the Israeli wan't to kill them ruthlessly, it will be a poor tactic.
See you are contradicting yourself, how could you have a physical war against a religion. Of course their is no war on a Islam perse but their is a war against the adherance of that faith, and anyone who adheres to it, they are sometime called fundementalist, sometime incorrectly called Extremist, even terrorist.
Ever person of muslim, even suffering Palestinian is personal. Who has suffered in the hand of Zionism and still are, maybe you can look back and sit comfortably but I can't. going of the topic , You should not forget Darfur, somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and I think Indonesia (earthquake).

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
You are the epitome of the type of Muslim I was talking about. Of course you need parent’s permission, even if they’re non-Muslim. Here is a source..
Yes, but if it means disobeying the Quran or the sunnah you don't have to obey them if they say no! If it is required for you to fight and you where able too than it is totally permissable, but if ones mother is not well than you don't have too!

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
What they are doing is not “jihad” at all. Not only are they killing innocent people, they are also ruining their chance to educate themselves what Islam is really is about.
I am sure they know what is Islam about, but it is how well they can follow.
I agree they should ovoid civilian death (what Islam prohibits).
They should defend themselve.
You should note Israel took millitary(aerial) action first bombing civilian, infractstructure e.t.c Hezbollah responded.
With not so precise missiles, he responded witht he means he has, maybe the american should send apache helicaptors to hezbollah like they been doing for Israel for years that terrorised people of palestine.
Maybe they should of been given precision missiles by U.S.
Note: If you really wan't to complain, than complain to U.S-U.K who does not wan't to call for immediate ceasefire.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
What evidence do you have that Israelis are bombing mosques deliberately? I challenge you to provide me with credible proof.
I never said they have. You used the word deliberately. Anyway, if you know how the state of Israel has been founded on it won't be suprising if they have and never been reported in the western media. I am not so worried about a mosque, mosque can be built again, but I am worried about the ummah, falling into passivity. Our deen is not passive (not a cabbage) but one that upholds rigth and forbids wrong. If your fellow brother is been opressed and are being opressed than we have a right to act.


Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Where have I labeled everyone belonging to Al-Quaeda? Be careful with the source?? There are pictures and witnesses that unanimously claim that mosques were bombed by fellow Muslims!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/...b.0616iraq.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/st...799231,00.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13727849/

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0121-09.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Thank you Al-Quaeda…for nothing.

Also, I do read Quran, and I am in the process of memorizing. I am not going to stand silent support killers because they are Muslims and use their faith to stir up hate. Sorry, I’m on Allah’s side.
Let me tell you, to take the safe stand, Their are muslim who take the support of the opressors over their fellow muslim. You should be wary of them. They sell their deen for profit, they wan't a law over than Islam. Does the Quran give any light on the above statement.

Make sure you not only mermorize it but understand it (this is the key) than apply it, this suppose to be a guide for the rest of your life.

I can pm you a better articles in worldy affairs than those. He's an intellectual, a person with knowledge. Who atleast is quite honest. If you wan't to read his material let me know.

P.S I am on Allah(swt) side.
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alcurad
08-07-2006, 12:58 AM
]salaam to all

brother quranstudy , first of all the israelies are attacking both lebanon & palestine ,killing and injuring hundreds of innocent civillans including women and children , hezbollah is merely responding to thar aggression.and by the way, hezbollah includes shias,sunnis,and even christians and all of them are fighting the israelies .
now let me ask you: if we were blindly supporting certain groups due to a religious agenda then what are the christians there fighting for ?
the answer is quite simple : thier country is being invaded and destroyed by the israelies and they are protecting it.religion plays a part in this but the main cause is self defence aswell as political . every country has a right to defend itself.
you are probably only watching western so called mainstream media - though i might be wrong- so i figure you have quite a distorted image of what is happenning right now. the iranians supplied - past tense- hezbollah with arms and funded it some time ago , they prbably still fund it, but isnt the US giving israel billions of dollars on an annual basis , aswell as supply them with advanced weapons & military tech?
the US has Vetoed every resolution passsed in the UN that has any whiff of benifit for the palestinians . now if the Us can get its nose in all affairs regarding the palestinian crisis why cant iran do the same?
also u talked about naïve Muslims propagating suicide bombings , well ,have you heard/seen anything about a suicide bombing occuring anywhere even nearthe area of the conflict?
any form of suicide is clearly prohibited in islam, but no suicide bombing has happend in palestine/lebanon during this recent conflict so why are u bringing the issue up??:?
please take time to read and know all the sides of the story aswell as educate urself more about the conflict and its roots before posting.

salaam
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Skillganon
08-07-2006, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by alcurad
]salaam to all

brother quranstudy , first of all the israelies are attacking both lebanon & palestine ,killing and injuring hundreds of innocent civillans including women and children , hezbollah is merely responding to thar aggression.and by the way, hezbollah includes shias,sunnis,and even christians and all of them are fighting the israelies .
now let me ask you: if we were blindly supporting certain groups due to a religious agenda then what are the christians there fighting for ?
the answer is quite simple : thier country is being invaded and destroyed by the israelies and they are protecting it.religion plays a part in this but the main cause is self defence aswell as political . every country has a right to defend itself.
you are probably only watching western so called mainstream media - though i might be wrong- so i figure you have quite a distorted image of what is happenning right now. the iranians supplied - past tense- hezbollah with arms and funded it some time ago , they prbably still fund it, but isnt the US giving israel billions of dollars on an annual basis , aswell as supply them with advanced weapons & military tech?
the US has Vetoed every resolution passsed in the UN that has any whiff of benifit for the palestinians . now if the Us can get its nose in all affairs regarding the palestinian crisis why cant iran do the same?
also u talked about naïve Muslims propagating suicide bombings , well ,have you heard/seen anything about a suicide bombing occuring anywhere even nearthe area of the conflict?
any form of suicide is clearly prohibited in islam, but no suicide bombing has happend in palestine/lebanon during this recent conflict so why are u bringing the issue up??:?
please take time to read and know all the sides of the story aswell as educate urself more about the conflict and its roots before posting.

salaam
Jazak Khair, Brother QuranStudy was speaking from his heart and rightly so he was condeming lost of innocent lives, he may not be aware of current situation or history, hence his stance. He is doing a wonderful Job memorising the Quran, and that will serve him well for the rest of his life. We need more brothers like him.

Salaam.
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Islam perse but their is a war against the adherance of that faith, and anyone who adheres to it, they are sometime called fundementalist, sometime incorrectly called Extremist, even terrorist.
And whose fault is that? When you see Islamic leaders calling for Israel to be wiped out, when mullahs use the Quran to justify hostility, when a Muslim commits suicide bombings in buses and cafes, what would you expect?.

We are the ones that are allowing them to make labels because of our un-Islamic practices.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Ever person of muslim, even suffering Palestinian is personal. Who has suffered in the hand of Zionism and still are, maybe you can look back and sit comfortably but I can't. going of the topic , You should not forget Darfur, somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and I think Indonesia (earthquake).
Most of the blame goes to the Arab leaders. If Palestinians are so personal, why are the Israelis sheltering them, and not their fellow Muslim “brothers?” From what I recall, Jordan took some parts of Palestine as well. Muslims are not helping the Palestinians, they are making things even worse. The Arab leader are just using Islam to achieve their political agenda.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Yes, but if it means disobeying the Quran or the sunnah you don't have to obey them if they say no! If it is required for you to fight and you where able too than it is totally permissable, but if ones mother is not well than you don't have too!
Permission from the parents is mandatory! Parents are much valued in Islam, and there are guidelines to performing Jihad, which are not followed at all by the “jihadists.” It’s plain murder. The real Jihad was during the Crusades and Saladin’s time. Today’s jihad is terrorism.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
I am sure they know what is Islam about, but it is how well they can follow.
I agree they should ovoid civilian death (what Islam prohibits).
They should defend themselve.
……yet they commit suicide bombs in public areas. (ex. 9/11).

Originally Posted by Skillganon
You should note Israel took millitary(aerial) action first bombing civilian, infractstructure e.t.c Hezbollah responded.
With not so precise missiles, he responded witht he means he has, maybe the american should send apache helicaptors to hezbollah like they been doing for Israel for years that terrorised people of palestine.
I have previously stated that I am no sympathizer for Israel. But my point is that twisting the teachings of Islam to justify sinful acts is inexcusable. Islam has no place in the affairs of Hezbollah or Al-Quaeda. A Muslim would mind his business, or would commit to peace treaties with Israel.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Maybe they should of been given precision missiles by U.S.
Note: If you really wan't to complain, than complain to U.S-U.K who does not wan't to call for immediate ceasefire.
My problem is using Islam as a tool to fight and commit terrorism. And the whole thing was started by Hezbollah, so don’t forget that. The Israeli massacres are inexcusable, but we need to take our share of the blame.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
If your fellow brother is been opressed and are being opressed than we have a right to act.
My fellow Muslim brothers are being oppressed in Muslim countries. Muslims in Israel and America are MUCH better off. Then again, being from “London,” you wouldn’t quite understand while enjoying freedom and equality.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Their are muslim who take the support of the opressors over their fellow muslim. You should be wary of them. They sell their deen for profit, they wan't a law over than Islam. Does the Quran give any light on the above statement.
1.) Explain to me how Israel and America/Britain is oppressive.
2.) Compare the situation in Israel to those of its neighbors.
3.) Quit it with your baseless theories. Prove me they are traitors.
4.) Muslims in Israel are quite content
5.) For more information, consult out brother abdmez in this forum, straight from Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by Skillganon
Make sure you not only mermorize it but understand it (this is the key) than apply it, this suppose to be a guide for the rest of your life.
I do not need any advice from you pertaining to the Quran. I do understand. I am not blinded with hate. Maybe you should practice what you preach.
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Do we need to compare how the Muslims in Saudi Arabia treat Jews vs. how the Jews in Israel treat Muslims?

I see you people take your freedoms and benefits living in Western nations for granted.
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Islamicboy
08-07-2006, 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by Dahir
OMG!! Excellent Post!!! BRAVO!!! Best. Post. Yet!

Loaded post!

I just wish people wouldn't come down so hard on me for being pro-Israeli, and realize that guerilla groups who use Islam for agenda aren't always right. :heated:
When you say you are pro israeli does that mean you agree with them bombing power supply, cutting off water, and taking away aid. Then bombing the country?
Fighting Israel is a must all the top scholars have agreed to it. majority of the people use the fact many civilians die in israel when hezbullaah or some other group attack. Thats a lie there are no civilians in israel all of them are either soldiers or just on reserve. Dahir i read your post on another thread. You are not pro israeli you just hate arabs.... The hate has made you pro israel because israel kills arabs.
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
The hate has made you pro israel because israel kills arabs.
And Arabs dont kill Israelis?
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Islamicboy
08-07-2006, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Do we need to compare how the Muslims in Saudi Arabia treat Jews vs. how the Jews in Israel treat Muslims?

I see you people take your freedoms and benefits living in Western nations for granted.
Saudi arabia does not treat jews bad prove it to me from atleast one article i lived in saudi arabia. My dad lived in saudi arabia 22 years he said non muslims and muslims alike were treated the same on there background. if you are non arab you get treated bad its not about religion over there.
Israeli muslims dont have air warning systems for bombs coming or bomb shelters. Also Jewish settlers often throw rocks, rip the hijab off from muslim women and curse them... Often police will be just standing watching them do it...
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Islamicboy
08-07-2006, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by QuranStudy
And Arabs dont kill Israelis?
Read my post clearly first i was talking about the fact why he support israel not why he supports arabs...
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 01:38 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Saudi arabia does not treat jews bad prove it to me from atleast one article i lived in saudi arabia. My dad lived in saudi arabia 22 years he said non muslims and muslims alike were treated the same on there background. if you are non arab you get treated bad its not about religion over there.
The government is intolerant of religious diversity. Restrictions on religious freedom apply to Saudis and foreigners alike, and any demonstration of religious affiliation or sentiment is forbidden except for Muslims who follow the austere Wahhabi interpretation of the Hanbali school of Sunni Islam, a doctrine promulgated in the mid-18th century. The kingdom's Shi'a Muslim minority suffers particularly acute discrimination in matters relating to their religion and culture. This in turn has perpetuated discrimination in other areas such as public-sector employment, education, and lack of access to positions in the judiciary, the security forces, and the military officers corps. Wahhabi clerics have historically viewed certain Shi'a religious rituals as polytheistic and thus heretical, and Shi'a public religious practice is tightly restricted, particularly the mourning celebration of Ashura. The state restricts the private construction of Shi'a mosques and traditional religious community centers (husayniyyat). Shi'a religious seminaries are not permitted, and Shi'a religious scholars have been arrested, tried secretly, and sentenced to long prison terms.
In April 2000, Ismaili Shi'a clashed with Saudi security forces in the southwestern province of Najran. According to some reports, the violence was precipitated by the arrest of an Ismaili cleric from Yemen whom authorities alleged was practicing "sorcery," while other accounts said protesters took to the streets after religious police raided an Ismaili mosque, confiscated its books, and closed the facility. Scores of Ismailis were reportedly arrested in the aftermath of the disturbances and some continue to be detained. In a statement publicized in the international media on December 9, 2001, Ismaili elders from Najran called on the Saudi government to release ninety-three imprisoned Ismailis, including seventeen who they said faced the death penalty ``for opposing the condition of degradation, repression and humiliation that is practiced against them and their tribesmen by Saudi authorities because of their faith.''
Public worship by non-Muslims is banned in the kingdom and places of worship other than mosques are not permitted. The government maintains that non-Muslims are free to worship privately but authorities have arrested participants in private religious services deemed too large. Foreigners suspected of proselytizing Muslims have also been arrested, sentenced to prison terms, and deported.
http://hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/saudi/

Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Israeli muslims dont have air warning systems for bombs coming or bomb shelters. Also Jewish settlers often throw rocks, rip the hijab off from muslim women and curse them... Often police will be just standing watching them do it...
Please provide proof.
Here is something that proves otherwise.

Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Read my post clearly first i was talking about the fact why he support israel not why he supports arabs...
Arabs kill Israelis (innocent) and then use the Quran to back it up. That is sick.
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Dahir
08-07-2006, 01:40 AM
When you say you are pro israeli does that mean you agree with them bombing power supply, cutting off water, and taking away aid. Then bombing the country?
Fighting Israel is a must all the top scholars have agreed to it. majority of the people use the fact many civilians die in israel when hezbullaah or some other group attack. Thats a lie there are no civilians in israel all of them are either soldiers or just on reserve. Dahir i read your post on another thread. You are not pro israeli you just hate arabs.... The hate has made you pro israel because israel kills arabs.
You are trying to use religion to change my political views.

Look, I am pro-Israeli because I've known a few Lebanese and Palestinians in my life, and ALL were pro-Israeli and fealt oppressed by Hamas.

There is even a poster on this forum, Abdmez, who lives in Israel, who is a Palestinian, who loves Israel and appreciates how the state takes care of him and his children's education. He is pro-Israeli.

If REAL Palestinians love Israel, I support them. I don't support what I hear on the news; Hamas, I support Palestinians I've had real contact with.
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QuranStudy
08-07-2006, 01:45 AM
What has Hamas ever accomplished?
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Islamicboy
08-07-2006, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Dahir
You are trying to use religion to change my political views.

Look, I am pro-Israeli because I've known a few Lebanese and Palestinians in my life, and ALL were pro-Israeli and fealt oppressed by Hamas.

There is even a poster on this forum, Abdmez, who lives in Israel, who is a Palestinian, who loves Israel and appreciates how the state takes care of him and his children's education. He is pro-Israeli.

If REAL Palestinians love Israel, I support them. I don't support what I hear on the news; Hamas, I support Palestinians I've had real contact with.
You are talking about few what about the millions of palestinians and lebonesse that still live there? Ofcourse 2 or 3 yeah i can understand if they feel that way towards israel. I can tell you about few experience i had i know couple of people who hate israel and they came from palestian. I know a jew who hates israel too.. He feels israel is unjust can you explain why might a person who lived in israel might feel that way...

Israel conflict is islamic issue not just arab issue..
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Islamicboy
08-07-2006, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by QuranStudy
What has Hamas ever accomplished?
I agree hamas should engage into more peaceful means but there is so much hamas can do. I mean if hamas doesnt do anything israel bombs them ofcourse they have to retaliate back. When they do news media plays it as hamas started the whole thing...
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Skillganon
08-07-2006, 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by QuranStudy
And whose fault is that? When you see Islamic leaders calling for Israel to be wiped out, when mullahs use the Quran to justify hostility, when a Muslim commits suicide bombings in buses and cafes, what would you expect?.
I agree the Israeli state should be dismantle (not the people), what right has a thief? No rights.
When A muslim commits a sucide bombing against people who did no harm is not right e.g. London. No justification but drawing conclusion and saying it is fault of muslims in general than your quite incorrect nor of their potrayal, nor drawing in conclusion that I advocate that is not nice.
One other thing, the london bombing was wrong, but it was the result of western foreign policy, unless you think they did it for the fun of it.
Allah(swt) will be the Judge upon them.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
We are the ones that are allowing them to make labels because of our un-Islamic practices.
I agree. But it is not allways the way they tell it.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Most of the blame goes to the Arab leaders. If Palestinians are so personal, why are the Israelis sheltering them, and not their fellow Muslim “brothers?” From what I recall, Jordan took some parts of Palestine as well. Muslims are not helping the Palestinians, they are making things even worse. The Arab leader are just using Islam to achieve their political agenda.
Israel is sheltering the palestinian people?
I agree that the some of the arab leaders should do more about it.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Permission from the parents is mandatory! Parents are much valued in Islam, and there are guidelines to performing Jihad, which are not followed at all by the “jihadists.” It’s plain murder. The real Jihad was during the Crusades and Saladin’s time. Today’s jihad is terrorism.
Generalizing terrorism with All Jihad is a fallacy, even in the age of today.


Originally Posted by QuranStudy
I have previously stated that I am no sympathizer for Israel. But my point is that twisting the teachings of Islam to justify sinful acts is inexcusable. Islam has no place in the affairs of Hezbollah or Al-Quaeda. A Muslim would mind his business, or would commit to peace treaties with Israel.
So you already Judged HEzbollah as terrorist?
A muslim will mind the business of his fellow brother also.

Peace treatise with Israel. Do you know what are proposed on those peace treatise. It is not just a piece paper that say Peace Please.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
My problem is using Islam as a tool to fight and commit terrorism. And the whole thing was started by Hezbollah, so don’t forget that. The Israeli massacres are inexcusable, but we need to take our share of the blame.
If you reffering to taking millitary Hostage it is permissable, HEzbollah asked for prisoner exchange. Totally reasonable and permissable. Israel refused, and wan't uncondition release, what about the unconditional release of prisoners from Israel. Also to note diplomatic means was not even considered not even by the 2 western goverment, Israel took millitary action, (guess the result) Hezbollah responded (Guess the result). Immediate Ceasefire was not even called by the U.S-Uk when everyone called for it.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
My fellow Muslim brothers are being oppressed in Muslim countries. Muslims in Israel and America are MUCH better off. Then again, being from “London,” you wouldn’t quite understand while enjoying freedom and equality.
Who does not know they are being opressed in muslim countries?
Give a true free election. You will see the result.
I know about those so called arab leaders and this we can agree on.
but making thus a conclusion and say therefore muslim are better of leaving under Israel or America is not logical.

I can say muslim are better of living in certain Arab state than in bangladesh.



Originally Posted by QuranStudy
1.) Explain to me how Israel and America/Britain is oppressive.
2.) Compare the situation in Israel to those of its neighbors.
3.) Quit it with your baseless theories. Prove me they are traitors.
4.) Muslims in Israel are quite content
5.) For more information, consult out brother abdmez in this forum, straight from Jerusalem.
Hold on, I will provide you with articles information to read.

http://www.chomsky.info/ (Recommended)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ (Recommended)
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...estine_reports
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...l_reports_list

Explore those sites, for starters.

Originally Posted by QuranStudy
I do not need any advice from you pertaining to the Quran. I do understand. I am not blinded with hate. Maybe you should practice what you preach.
Are you accusing me of being blinded with hate?
It is not nice to make statement like that.

Peace.
Reply

ManchesterFolk
08-07-2006, 02:56 AM
Hold on, I will provide you with articles information to read.
Those are biased sites.

There are completly biased sites on both sides of the fence.
Reply

Skillganon
08-07-2006, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Those are biased sites.

There are completly biased sites on both sides of the fence.
Asslam Macherster Folk.

You Mean These sites:

http://www.chomsky.info/ (Recommended)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ (Recommended)
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...tin e_reports
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...l_reports_list

Ok. I will check them out by thoroughly reading them.

I am off to bed now, goodnight!
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 03:12 AM
How about reading these since you like to post anti-israel sites:

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1...day_backgd.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_indepen..._jews_what.php
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_current_settlements.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php
http://www.masada2000.org/pal-refugees.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ne_zionism.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ef_history.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...nists_land.php
Reply

Link
08-07-2006, 03:25 AM
You don't have anything to do with the Quran, the Quran doesn't seperate politics from religion and spirituality just as Dawood (as) did not see distinction between the two.

Members of hizbollah know more about Islam then you, they know the real Islam as shown by the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (as), not this apologetic submitting to oppressors and oppression and just pray at home Islam you are trying to protray as the real Islam.

Our Prophet (pbuh) was very politcal, the Quran has more verses to do with social and political aspects of man then spritituality.

The revolution in Iran was a victory for the umma, believing in rulership of other then what God revealed is haram. Seperating state from religion in Islam is haram. Accepting king fahad as legitimate leader is kufr and believe in taghootic reign.

Is you knows barely about Islam, nothing about justice and the political mission of Quran, nothing about God's will regarding oppressed and oppressors, an who are you to criticize people like Khomeini (qas), Khamanei (ha) and Nasrallah (ha) and say they know barely anything about Islam.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-07-2006, 03:38 AM
Salaam,

Why i hate Israel,for their survival they murdered hundred of thousand of Palestinians,muslima nd christians.

They moved them from the land and after that palc them in areas where they are oppresed daily so that they can live their way of LIFE

As for truces with Israel tell me,do your ead much about peace treaty where the Isrealis still bomb palestine as they say "becasue they will murder anyone who get in their way"?

So a treaty should be honoured but when they break it with the murder of palestinian but still say that they keep it is just HYPROCRITE.

And Muslim are ISLAM,,,that is why the UMMAH is one,in the past under the Khalifah,we moved as one and attacked or defend as one.

The Isrealis invaded Palestine and Lebanon ,that is an aggresive act and should be responded to by the entire muslim ummah.
But as always the hyprocrites exist in the propeht time and even now.

They say we are destroying Islam ,but they hyprocrites are the one who say why should the ummah interfere.

As Allah say,these people say they do what they do for peace but they are the mischeif maker.

May Allah curse these hyprocrites and their coven.
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 03:43 AM
It would be a great argument, if just about everything in your post wasn't completly false, or distorted information.
Reply

Skillganon
08-07-2006, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
It would be a great argument, if just about everything in your post wasn't completly false, or distorted information.
Very Rich coming from somone who has posted sites that has more or less re-written history in one form or another.

-----------------
&
You Mean These sites:

http://www.chomsky.info/ (Recommended)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ (Recommended)
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...tin e_reports
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...l_reports_list

Ok. I will check them out by thoroughly reading them.

Sorry I did not find the word "anti-israel" in it.

I will check again by reading another article.

If I find it I will check back with you Guyz. I am sure my effort won't go unwasted.
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 03:35 PM
I likes these sites better:

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1...day_backgd.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_indepen..._jews_what.php
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_current_settlements.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php
http://www.masada2000.org/pal-refugees.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ne_zionism.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ef_history.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...nists_land.php

lol.
Reply

Skillganon
08-07-2006, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
I likes these sites better:

lol.
LOL

I read these sites, wheter I like it or not.

http://www.chomsky.info/ (Recommended)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ (Recommended)
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...tin e_reports
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...l_reports_list

Anyway, dude how do you pronounce your name. I don't read Hebrew, I know it is very close to arabic & aramaic.
Reply

מדינת ישׂראל
08-07-2006, 04:13 PM
LOL. Its a very big secret.

hahaha. :-)



http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1...day_backgd.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_indepen..._jews_what.php
http://www.masada2000.org/geography.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_current_settlements.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php
http://www.masada2000.org/pal-refugees.html
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ne_zionism.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...ef_history.php
http://palestinefacts.org/pf_early_p...nists_land.php
Reply

Skillganon
08-07-2006, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by מדינת ישׂראל
LOL. Its a very big secret.

hahaha. :-)

php[/url]
Is their a site where I can get a Dictionary by any chance? ::cry:


http://www.chomsky.info/ (Recommended)
http://www.zmag.org/Chomsky/ (Recommended)
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...tin e_reports
http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...l_reports_list
Reply

Dawud_uk
08-07-2006, 04:53 PM
I honestly think we are corrupting Islam.

We should NEVER interwine Islam with our political agenda like Iran does.

Here are some points I was thinking for the past few days:

1.) Why are we even fighting with Israel? The Israelis, though not perfect, are generally fair people and I don’t see any gain from fighting them.
the message of islam includes a political message, yes iran mixes it up with its own nationalistic ambitions but still islam is political and includes a whole different state system, to deny shariah is part of islam is kufr.

2.) I am 100% sure most members of Hezbollah and Al-Quaeda know extremely little about Islam. in Islam, knowledge is holier than a martyr’s blood. Shouldn’t we devote out time actually worshipping and learning about Islam than fighting a futile and unjustified battle?
wrong, read their statements, you might disagree with the way they use the evidence but it is clear they know a great deal more about islam than you and more and spend much of their time away from the battlefields studying it.

3.) It’s relatively easy to root for your fellow Muslim brothers when you’re in a Western society not living in the conditions faced by Israel and Palestine.
agreed, so why arent u?
Allah has made it easy for you but yet you still make it hard for yourself.

4.) NEVER, and I mean NEVER, should we use Islam for our political agenda. What we are doing is not only un-Islamic, it is something out Prophet has never done. If we make treaties with our Jewish brethrens, then we are obliged to commit to it.
they have broken their treaties with us again and again.
also how can you have a treaty with someone who is killing your own brothers and sisters? wake up, we are one brotherhood in islam.

5.) It was the JEWS, and not out selfish Arab brothers, who actually provided land for Palestinians, though little. From what I remember, Jordan took parts of Palestine as well.
The arab nationalists will answer for their own crimes, the zionist jews for theirs. and the land was palestinian in the first place, if someone steals your house but kindly gives you back your garden shed would you thank him or still want to kill him?

6.) Let’s be honest. One of the reasons for the hostility is because we are blindly following certain groups due to religious affiliation. Our Prophet treated Jews kindly, and yet were are the naïve Muslims propagating suicide bombings and killing people who could care less of our affairs.
yes and when they betraid him he (saws) had them all killed and expelled, there is a lesson from the sunnah here also for us.

7.) This whole Jihad and martyrdom act is stupid. Our religion is not being attacked by Israelis. Why are we making this a religious agenda?? Live and let live. Follow the Quran and quit being hypocrites!!! Because of our associating Islam with our futile and greedy ambitions, we are not corrupting Islam, we are giving this glorious faith a bad name as well.
Denying Jihad is part of islam means denying islam in its entirity, you cannot pick and choose which bits you follow.

8.) A wise Muslim would stay out of other people’s business. Probably Palestine has been taken unjustly, but what does that have to do with Islam? Why is Iran involved with all this? I understand that Israel has a long way to go, but unless we become Islamic and civilized, they will always fear. And fear brings out the worst of humanity in such situations

If you disagree with anything, please post explaining why.

Salaam
because we are one brotherhood, we have allowed ourselves to be divided up and become nationalistic, the muslims in palestine, iraq, afghanistan and chechnya are as much my brothers as the ones who live down the road and go to my local mosque.

if i turned my back on them and didnt feel their pain then my imaan is lacking, why are YOU not hurting for your brothers and sisters?

wa alaykumus salaam,
Daw'ud
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