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MuslimCONVERT
08-08-2006, 12:28 AM
The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)

1. Abraham (saas) was told by God that a Great Nation would come from him. (Genesis 12:2-3)

2. Sarah, Abraham’s wife doesn’t bear children at first. (Genesis 16:1)

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)

4. Later Sarah has Isaac. (Genesis 21:2)

So far so good. The story here is quite clear. A Prophecy for a great nation was said to come from Abraham. After Sarah seemingly cannot conceive, Hagar becomes Abraham’s second wife and conceives Ishmael. Later Sarah actually does conceive and has Isaac.

Biblical points which hold true to the Islamic perception of Ishmael and the pure lineage of Muhammad (saas):

1. Ishmael was Abraham’s first son. (Genesis 16:4)

2. God said that Hagar’s seed would be multiplied exceedingly. (Genesis 16:10)

3. God said Ishmael was blessed! (Genesis 17:20)

4. Ishmael is clearly called ‘Abraham’s seed’ by God. (Genesis 21:13)

4. God repeats His promise to make Ishmael a great nation FIVE TIMES! (Genesis 15:4) (Genesis 16:10) (Genesis 17:20) (Genesis 21:13) (Genesis 21:18)


From here the Islamic version and the Biblical account part ways. The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac, whereas the bible states the opposite. The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and again, the Bible states the opposite. The Muslim version states that both Isaac and Ishmael were pure blameless children of Abraham, both revered, whereas in the Biblical account, Isaac is revered and Ishmael is seen as a mean-spirited outcast. Let us review the shameful and undoubtedly corrupted view of Ishmael in the Bible:

1. Ishmael is called a ‘wild donkey of a man’: (Genesis 16:12)
2. Ishmael and his descendants are going to be known as troublemakers (Genesis 16:12)
3. Ishmael is considered illegitamite (This is a Christian claim which no Bible verse supports.)
4. Ishmael makes fun of Isaac and teases him: (Genesis 21:9)
5. Ishmael and his mother are cast out from Abrahams’ family (Genesis 21:10)

Now let us lay these preposterous and slanderous claims to rest.

Ishmael a wild donkey of a man?

This is where it becomes evident that the prejudice of the author seeps through. The Christian must remember that the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted, and history attests this, especially that of the Old Testament. God himself attests this in the Old Testament, saying, "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.” (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8) -So it is admitted within the Bible itself, that the Old Testament is corrupted. No independent scholar accepts the preposterous view that the first 5 books of the Bible were written by Moses as evangelicals claim. This indeed would be quite impossible because otherwise Moses refers to himself in the third person and even writes about his own death and the month that follows it.
Therefore, if the Islamic view of the Bible is that it is corrupted (Not wrong, but not always right either) then it is very well possible, from this viewpoint that the entire story of Ishmael and Isaac is skewed, handled malisciously from the pen of some overzealous rabbi who could not ignore fully his own prejudice and wishes, but yet also could not ignore fully the facts of history, being that both Ishmael and Isaac were blessed, revered and of highly esteemed moral character. Starting from this point we can see through the authors slanders and see to the truth, and that is that this particular verse, that is the verse of Ishmael being a ‘wild donkey’ of a man is an overly obvious forgery, and opinion of whoever the mildly racist author of this book is. –And his intent is quite clear. He wants to prove that the lineage of the Jews is pure, and that no non-jew could ever partake in the pure lineage of Abraham. This is undoubtedly the authors intention, because he goes to great lengths to ‘prove’ it. Consider the ‘all-to-convenient’ verbiage of Sarah as interjected by the author: “Wherefore she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this bondwoman and her son: For the son of a bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.’” (21:10).
As to the authors intention to show that the blood and lineage of the Jewish people is untainted, consider the fact that according to the Bible, Abraham and Sarah were brother and Sister! (Genesis 20:12.) This same author is the one who insulted the Prophet Lot by saying he had an incestuous drunken relationship with his two daughters, (Genesis 19:36) And Jacob was married to two sisters at the same time: (Genesis 29:28). The intention is clear, that the author of Genesis is either a pervert obsessed with incest, or he slanders honorable prophets with false stories of Incest in order to show that the blood of Isaac and his descendants (The Jews) is pure. It is for this reason the author feels the need to slander Ishmael and foist on him the false story of being ‘cast out’ of the family of Abraham. –It is also clearly, based on the evidence, a big lie. Ishmael was not a wild donkey of a man, but the author of Genesis sure was!

Ishmael and his descendants will ‘be against all men?’

The Bible says of Ishmael: “…his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” (Genesis 16:12)

In recent times this is probably the most oft-repeated verse against Ishmael and the Muslims used by Christians to prove a plethora of points. All one needs to do is point to the news to see that seemingly Ishmael’s seed truly is ‘against all men’ and ‘all men are against him.’ It is, to them, proof positive that the Bible is the word of God.
But there is a problem with this theory, and that is quite simply that only recently could this be applied. It wasn’t until the decline of the Ottomon Empire in the 1700’s that the Islamic world experienced a regression leading to a downward spiral of corruption, hopelessness, and violence.
One need not point out the fact that the oldest and indeed one of the first colleges on earth was founded by Muslims and is still on the earth today (Al-Azhar.) It is evident that whilst Europe was sunk in the dark ages, the civilized Muslims revived the learning of Aristotle and Plato, who otherwise would have been forgotten. There was a time when Baghdad, for example, was called, ‘The greatest city on earth.’ -And this title was given it by European scholars. Was it because the Arabs of Baghdad were mindless killers against all men? Of course not! It was because they were civilized learners who enjoyed a thriving economy! In fact, it was the Muslims who saved the Christians in their lands from the conquests of invaders, and it was the Turkish Muslims who later protected the Jews who fled persecution from Spain. Was it not the Muslim Salahaddin who granted all Christians in Jerusalem amnesty despite that fact that when Muslims were run out of Jerusalem years earlier the Christians boiled Muslim children alive in pots?
So there is well over a thousand years of the Muslim empire (now known as the Golden age of Islam) in which this whimsical sentence in the Bible was utterly false, and any attempt to apply it to Muslims would be deemed laughable by even the Christians! So what is more logical? To say this verse is true, when it has only been true for the past 100 years at best, which represents not even a glimmer in the existence of Islam, or to say that this is the interjection of some ancient Jew who had, as seen above, his own wicked intentions?

Ishmael is considered illegitimite?

This one I really don’t get. The Bible clearly states that Hagar and Abraham were married. (Genesis 16:3) Abraham is also spoken of in highly respected terms in the Bible? How is it that this highly respected Prophet had a child with a woman whom he was married to, and by the logic of some evangelicals this = illigetamite?
Of course not! So how can this be deemed an instance with which to judge Ishmael and say he was therefore excluded from the covenant? Based on what we have seen so far, we need not even address the last two biblical accounts of Ishmael teasing Isaac and whereby being cast out, as this is another obvious forgery by the baised author, whoever he was.

The Bible Had Ishmael and Isaac Confused!

The most common question to be asked by the Christian then is, how can the Muslims believe that Ishmael was to be sacrificed and not Isaac, and that Ishmael got the covenant, when the Bible clearly states otherwise? Well, not to beat a dead horse, but the Muslim view of the Bible is that it is corrupted. So automatically, any story which contradicts Islamic teachings we view with skepticism. As seen already, the author of Genesis, where we find the account of Ishmael and Isaac, is also extremely baised. These facts alone are a red flag to the logical thinkers that just to accept this story as 100% authentic as it is presented in the Bible would be a great error.
With that being said, let us examine the story in the Bible again, and show that the author made some grave errors in his writing which proves that Ishmael and Isaac were confused:

The Bible states that Abraham was 99 years old when Ishmael was circumcised. Ishmael was 13 at the time. (Genesis 17:24-27)

Exactly one year later Isaac is born. (Genesis 21:4-5) So if Abraham was 99 when Ishmael was circumcised a year earlier, that would mean when Isaac is born, he is 100 years old, and Ishmael is 14.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.

Consider when Ishmael is cast out with Hagar into the desert in Genesis 21. What are the descriptions of Ishmael? Pay close attention to the following descriptions:

A. Ishmael is tucked under shrubs (Genesis 21:15)
B. He is called a ‘lad’ (Genesis 21:18, 20)
C. Hagar holds Ishmael in ONE HAND (Genesis 21:18)

Clearly the author is referring to an infant. But Ishmael is 14 at the time, how would he be tucked under shrubs and held in one hand of a weak woman who was dying of thirst? Why is he called a lad? Would this not more aptly apply to the infant Isaac who was only a year old and not to Ishmael who is a teenager?
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lavikor201
08-08-2006, 01:43 AM
Ishmael was certainly blessed, and as G-d said a great nation (in numbers) came from him...

Yet he was not the one who recieved the covenant of G-d.

Isaacs descendants the Jewish people recieved it, and recieved the Torah and were chosen for the honor to obey all of G-d's laws in his holy Torah.

But in essence if Mohammad really did come from Ishmael, Muslims and Jews are pretty much brothers.
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MuslimCONVERT
08-08-2006, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Ishmael was certainly blessed, and as G-d said a great nation (in numbers) came from him...

Yet he was not the one who recieved the covenant of G-d.

Isaacs descendants the Jewish people recieved it, and recieved the Torah and were chosen for the honor to obey all of G-d's laws in his holy Torah.

But in essence if Mohammad really did come from Ishmael, Muslims and Jews are pretty much brothers.
I agree that Muslims and Jews are very close and from the family of Abraham. In a perfect world this fact alone would be enough to reconcile differences.

At any rate, I just posted a thought based off of the Bible verses I quoted that possibly there is evidence in the Bible to assume that Ishmael may have been the actual recepient of the covenant. Hope all is well.
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lavikor201
08-08-2006, 02:57 AM
The Bible specifically states that is untrue, so there isn't much to prove.
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dougmusr
08-08-2006, 03:03 AM
The story of Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar (May the mercy and blessings of Allah be on them all) is found in the Bible, much skewed and corrupted from the pure Islamic version. The reason this is so is because the book of Genesis, undoubtedly written by some Jewish Rabbi of the past would certainly be biased in his understanding of history between the two forefathers. There would be in him, whoever he was, the desire to paint his own ancestry, that is the seed of Isaac, in the brightest of colors, whereby either purposely or inadvertently condemning the rival (I.e. Ishmael) as the negative end of the spectrum. In other words, a Jew most certainly wrote Genesis, so Isaac, the father of the Jews and Abraham’s son, is presented in this blessed light, and Ishmael, the father of the Arabs is whereby presented in somewhat dark euphemisms, and foisted on him is the subtle racism and condescending attitude of the author.
This being said, it is evident that my own assumptions are true, because of the many gaps and inconsistencies which are clues left to us by the True and Almighty God in the Biblical account, which point us in the direction of the truth (I.E. of the Islamic version.)
Thank goodness bias is a uniquely Jewish character flaw and would never occur in an Islamic scholar such as yourself.

3. Sarah whereby allowed Abraham to MARRY Hagar (Genesis 16:3) -This defeats the evangelical claim that Ishmael was illegitamite. Hagar conceives Ishmael. (genesis 16:4)
No one is denying Ishmael is Abrahams seed. He is not however the child of the promise as the following verses attest.

Ge 17:18 And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!"
19 Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.
20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
21 "But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year."
22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.”
Isn't that interesting. The scribe's false pen has included in the scripture his own judgement for all to read so you could quote it later. Talk about a conspiracy to cover up scriptural misdeeds and inaccuracies.

Then comes the story of the sacrifice in the Bible: In Genesis 22, God tells Abraham to take ‘Thine ONLY son Isaac…’ -WHAT? Ishmael is 14 at the time? Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as Abrahams ONLY son? Many Christians will say that this is because God here is making it clear that Isaac is the only heir to the covenant, and that is why God refers to Isaac as ‘The ONLY son..’ but God clearly calls Ishmael the seed of Abraham according to Genesis 21:13, so such conclusions are impossible. The only conclusion is that the author of Genesis had Ishmael and Isaac confused.
By your own scriptural references, you show that Ishmael has been driven out with his mother and no longer lives with Abraham. Your assertion is then that Sarah and Haggar don't recognize each others children, and Haggar took the wrong one, or that it was Sarah and Isaac that left and Abraham stayed with Haggar. In either case, the blessing continues through Jacob, so you must be asserting that Jacob was Ishmael's son.

As long as we're on the story of the sacrifice of Isaac, what a beautiful picture of the crucifixion of Christ as a future sacrifice for man's sin.


Ge 22:13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.


Note that the sacrifice was a substitute for Isaac, was bound, and wore a crown of thorns in the form of a thicket.
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north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
if Mohammad really did come from Ishmael, Muslims and Jews are pretty much brothers.
That's why I'm saying that no matter how much Muslims hate the Jews that should be reminded that:

1) Muhammad has a 'Hebrew' ancestry.

2) Muhammad had a Jewess (ethnically, not religiously) wife.

3) A Jew converted the Copts to Islam and among 10 people promised by God to enter paradise.

4) A Jew initiated the most famous sunni institution 'Al Azhar University'.

5) A Rabbi joined Uhud war and died as a martyr:

Among the martyrs was a Jewish Rabbi. When the Prophet asked about how this rabbi came to battle, he was informed that he had joined the battle early to fight the idolaters, and asked his people that the Prophet should be the only heir of his property. Then he went to the battle and was killed. Later on, it is reported that a large protion of alms which were distributed in Al-Madinah came from the rich palm groves that "Prophet inherited from this Jewish martyr". The Prophet used to call this martyr "The Best of the Jews".

Source: http://islamic-council.org/lib/first.../CHAPTER3.html
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Zulkiflim
08-08-2006, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
That's why I'm saying that no matter how much Muslims hate the Jews that should be reminded that:

1) Muhammad has a 'Hebrew' ancestry.

2) Muhammad had a Jewess (ethnically, not religiously) wife.

3) A Jew converted the Copts to Islam and among 10 people promised by God to enter paradise.

4) A Jew initiated the most famous sunni institution 'Al Azhar University'.

5) A Rabbi joined Uhud war and died as a martyr:

Among the martyrs was a Jewish Rabbi. When the Prophet asked about how this rabbi came to battle, he was informed that he had joined the battle early to fight the idolaters, and asked his people that the Prophet should be the only heir of his property. Then he went to the battle and was killed. Later on, it is reported that a large protion of alms which were distributed in Al-Madinah came from the rich palm groves that "Prophet inherited from this Jewish martyr". The Prophet used to call this martyr "The Best of the Jews".

Source: http://islamic-council.org/lib/first.../CHAPTER3.html
Salaam,

That is history and the now is the now.

As you poited out in those 5 points,when has the muslim ummah massacared the Jews just for being themselves?In fact the Jews had their golden era under muslim rule.

They were cared and protected but is this how they repay the kindness?

The land of Palestine was inhabited by Muslim Judaist and Chrisitan,all lived in peace under muslim rule UNTIL the JEws invaded and force both muslim and chrisitna to be deprived of their own land.

So the past is the past,remeberance can only help if both sides rememeber,but now you wnat muslim to remember while Jews forget.

It is like this,a jewsih man hold a gun to your head and you wnat to fight back but some other muslim come and say "no we should not fight back" cause we treated them nice so long ago..

My reply to this is simple,is hti how they repay kindness?
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north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 03:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

That is history and the now is the now.

As you poited out in those 5 points,when has the muslim ummah massacared the Jews just for being themselves?In fact the Jews had their golden era under muslim rule.

They were cared and protected but is this how they repay the kindness?

The land of Palestine was inhabited by Muslim Judaist and Chrisitan,all lived in peace under muslim rule UNTIL the JEws invaded and force both muslim and chrisitna to be deprived of their own land.

So the past is the past,remeberance can only help if both sides rememeber,but now you wnat muslim to remember while Jews forget.

It is like this,a jewsih man hold a gun to your head and you wnat to fight back but some other muslim come and say "no we should not fight back" cause we treated them nice so long ago..

My reply to this is simple,is hti how they repay kindness?
I'm talking about the Muslims living outside Israel, Lebanon, palestine..... which No Jews held guns to our head
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lavikor201
08-08-2006, 04:08 AM
They were cared and protected but is this how they repay the kindness?
You might want to do more reaserch. If you think the Jews were treated amazingly under Islam all the time your kidding yourself.

It depended on the ruler. Not the religion.
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north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
You might want to do more reaserch. If you think the Jews were treated amazingly under Islam all the time your kidding yourself.

It depended on the ruler. Not the religion.
Agreed...
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-08-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I'm talking about the Muslims living outside Israel, Lebanon, palestine..... which No Jews held guns to our head

Salaam,

even if that is where you are pointed at the reply is still the same.

Now the Jews are saying that they are the victima nd ask for muslim not to aid our borthers and sister in defence of their very being and htier deisres to return to their land.

We muslim should and must stand as one not out of hate but out of JUSTICE.

We should aid our brothers and sister to fight Israel for their own right and their own lives.

As always the muslim should rule Palestine and Israel and we will rule Inshallah with Islamic laws.Both other reliogn will be respected AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN.,...


So speak not about history but speak of what is right to be done now...
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Zulkiflim
08-08-2006, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
You might want to do more reaserch. If you think the Jews were treated amazingly under Islam all the time your kidding yourself.

It depended on the ruler. Not the religion.
Salaam,

As always show all that is,and if you speak of the time of the Prophet muhammad saw when the tribe of Isrealis were rid off,then that case is much discussed here..

I am sure that moderators will post the link for you to learn.
Reply

MuslimCONVERT
08-12-2006, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
The Bible specifically states that is untrue, so there isn't much to prove.
Perhaps then you can address some of the claims in the post.

Peace.
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doodlebug
10-23-2006, 06:45 PM
If Isaac was the one cast out into the desert than the whole Hajj thing is meaningless though right.......since we're celebrating how the spring of water gushed forth saving Hagar and the leader of Islam?
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- Qatada -
10-23-2006, 07:00 PM
When was Hajj enjoined? When did Hajj begin?




Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)”

[al-Hajj 22:27]



Ibn Katheer says in his commentary on this verse (3/221):


This means: Proclaim (O Ibraaheem) the Hajj to the people, calling them to come on pilgrimage to this House which We have commanded you to build. It was mentioned that he said,


“O Lord, how can I proclaim it to the people when my voice does not reach them?” He said, “Call and We will convey it.” So he stood in his maqaam (station) – or it was said, on the rock, or on al-Safa, or on Abu Qubays (a mountain) – and said: “O people, your Lord has taken a House, so come to it on pilgrimage.” And it was said that the mountains lowered themselves so that his voice could reach all parts of the earth and those who were still in the wombs or in men’s loins also heard, and everything that heard him, cities, nomad encampments and trees, and everyone whom Allaah has decreed should perform Hajj until the Day of Resurrection responded, (saying) Labbayk Allaahumma labbayk (Here I am, O Allaah, here I am. This is the summary of what was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas, Mujaahid, ‘Ikrimah, Sa’eed ibn Jubayr and others among the salaf. And Allaah knows best.



Al-Qurtubi said in his Tafseer (2/4/92): Hajj was known to the Arabs. When Islam came, they were told about something they already knew and what was enjoined upon them was something they were familiar with…” See also Ahkaam al-Qur’aan by Ibn al-‘Arabi, 1/286.




2 – Tawaaf around the House




Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and We commanded Ibraaheem (Abraham) and Ismaa’eel (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (I‘tikâf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer)”

[al-Baqarah 2:125]



This verse indicates that tawaaf around the Ka’bah was known at the time of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him).




3 – Raml


Raml means walking quickly with short steps. This is Sunnah for men but not for women during the tawaaf of arrival (tawaaf al-qudoom), which is the first tawaaf performed when one arrives in Makkah.

How did raml begin?



Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (2/469-470, 1602) and Muslim also narrated (2/991-992, 1262) that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came with his companions and the mushrikoon (polytheists) said, “There have come to you people who have been weakened by the fever of Yathrib. So the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded them to walk quickly (raml) in the first three circuits… According to another report, he said, “Walk quickly so that the mushrikeen will see that you are strong.”




4 – The water of Zamzam and saa’i between al-Safa and al-Marwah.
[the story of Hajar and Isma'eel (when he was a baby)]


Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (6/396-397, 3364) that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

Ibraaheem brought Haajar and her son Ismaa’eel when she was still breastfeeding him, to a place near the Ka’bah under a tree on the spot of Zamzam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Makkah, nor was there any water. So he left them there and left with them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ismaa’eel’s mother followed him saying, “O Ibraaheem! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look at her. Then she asked him, “Has Allaah commanded you to do this?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not forsake us,” and went back while Abraham proceeded onwards. When he reached al-Thaniyah where they could not see him, he turned to face the Ka’bah, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayer:



“O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) in order, O our Lord, that they may perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah). So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allaah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks”

[Ibraaheem 14:37]


Ismaa’eel’s mother went on breastfeeding Ismaa’eel and drinking from the water (she had). When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ismaa’eel) tossing in agony. She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of al-Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from al-Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached al-Marwa where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between al-Safa and al-Marwa) seven times.


Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “This is the (origin of) the people’s saa’i (walking) between them between them (i.e. al-Safa and al-Marwa).” When she reached al-Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she said to herself “Shh!” and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, “O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?” Then she saw an angel at the place of Zamzam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), until water appeared. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it.


Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “May Allah have mercy on the mother of Ismaa’eel! Had she let Zamzam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zamzam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth.” And he said: “The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people’…”

Ibn al-Jawzi said in his book Mutheer al-‘Azm al-Saakin (2/47): “This hadeeth explains the reason why it is called Zamzam, because when the water flowed, Haajar tried to control it (zammat-ha). The linguist Ibn Faaris said: Zamzam comes from the words zamamtu al-naaqah (I reined in the camel).



The questioner could also refer to Question no. 3748 for a brief look at the history of al-Masjid al-Haraam.


And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...history%20hajj
Reply

doodlebug
10-23-2006, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
When was Hajj enjoined? When did Hajj begin?



4 – The water of Zamzam and saa’i between al-Safa and al-Marwah.
[the story of Hajar and Isma'eel (when he was a baby)]


Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh (6/396-397, 3364) that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said:

Ibraaheem brought Haajar and her son Ismaa’eel when she was still breastfeeding him, to a place near the Ka’bah under a tree on the spot of Zamzam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Makkah, nor was there any water. So he left them there and left with them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ismaa’eel’s mother followed him saying, “O Ibraaheem! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?” She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look at her. Then she asked him, “Has Allaah commanded you to do this?” He said, “Yes.” She said, “Then He will not forsake us,” and went back while Abraham proceeded onwards. When he reached al-Thaniyah where they could not see him, he turned to face the Ka’bah, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayer:



“O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) in order, O our Lord, that they may perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah). So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allaah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks”

[Ibraaheem 14:37]


Ismaa’eel’s mother went on breastfeeding Ismaa’eel and drinking from the water (she had). When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ismaa’eel) tossing in agony. She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of al-Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from al-Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached al-Marwa where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between al-Safa and al-Marwa) seven times.


Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “This is the (origin of) the people’s saa’i (walking) between them between them (i.e. al-Safa and al-Marwa).” When she reached al-Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she said to herself “Shh!” and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, “O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?” Then she saw an angel at the place of Zamzam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), until water appeared. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it.


Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “May Allah have mercy on the mother of Ismaa’eel! Had she let Zamzam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zamzam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth.” And he said: “The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people’…”

Ibn al-Jawzi said in his book Mutheer al-‘Azm al-Saakin (2/47): “This hadeeth explains the reason why it is called Zamzam, because when the water flowed, Haajar tried to control it (zammat-ha). The linguist Ibn Faaris said: Zamzam comes from the words zamamtu al-naaqah (I reined in the camel).



The questioner could also refer to Question no. 3748 for a brief look at the history of al-Masjid al-Haraam.


And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...history%20hajj

This is the point of my question....the OP is suggesting that it was Isaac, not Ishmael who was put out to the desert, but that goes against what we believe.....
Reply

glo
10-23-2006, 09:28 PM
It's a little silly to have a discussion on this issue - since Muslims believe the Bible has been tampered with, and Christians believe it hasn't.

So I will just give the appropriate Bible verses to the question in hand, to demonstrate the Biblical view:
(Strangely I was posting on this very same topic in another forum only earlier today)

Biblically the convenant was given to Isaac, without any doubt, although Ishmael also recieved God's blessing (Note that Abraham asked for God's blesing on Ishmael, not expecting to father another son):
Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him. (Genesis 17: 17-22)
As far as this description of Ishmael is concerned, I can see how it may not seem very flattering to Muslims. :rollseyes
But - given that I believe it to be God's word, and not a human expression of prejudice - I find that description has a certain warmth. And given the situation Muslims have been finding themselves in over the centuries, and indeed are finding themselves in nowadays, I find those words almost prophetic:
The angel of the LORD also said to her [Hagar]:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.

He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him
,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers." (Genesis 16: 7-12)
Peace
Reply

lavikor201
10-23-2006, 09:39 PM
The Tanakh says that he will be great in numbers which he is, but that doesn't mean his nation is right. Just means they were to be "great in numbers". Another prophecy completed by the Tanakh.
Reply

Andaraawus
10-24-2006, 12:24 AM
Isaac, the father of the Jews
Yitshaq was not the father of the Jews but the granfather of the whole of the twelve tribes. Jews only repersent one tribe from the "ben Yisraa'el" and that is "ben yahuwd." i.e "tribe of Judah"
Reply

Andaraawus
10-24-2006, 12:29 AM
The Muslim holds that it was in fact Ishmael who had the covenant and not Isaac,
Anybody who was circumcised in Abrahams (Avraham) house was under the covenant. Ismael (Yismael) was part of that covenant but we will find that Ihsaq was two. The kingdom of G-d had to shift from one people to another eventually as Jesus predicted according to the New Testament.
Reply

Andaraawus
10-24-2006, 12:33 AM
The Muslim holds that it was Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and not Isaac,

there were great Sahabaa that opined that the son of sacrifice was Ihsaq. The Qur'aan is not does not state which son was to be sacrificed - and i am not sure if there is a hadith on this. I most certainly would like to see one and collect as much information on this part. When ever i have researched this issue i have seemed to hit dead ends.
Reply

Andaraawus
10-24-2006, 12:43 AM
Muslim Covert that was an excellent post, i did enjoy reading it. dont mind m pointing one or two things out though ..wasalams
Reply

lavikor201
10-24-2006, 02:59 AM
Anybody who was circumcised in Abrahams (Avraham) house was under the covenant. Ismael (Yismael) was part of that covenant but we will find that Ihsaq was two.
Please tell me where in the Tanakh it says that everyone circumsicised at that period of time was under the covanent. Remnember the period of Abraham is before Halakha.
Reply

Andaraawus
10-24-2006, 03:18 AM
How many covenants were they ?
Reply

- Qatada -
10-24-2006, 01:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
This is the point of my question....the OP is suggesting that it was Isaac, not Ishmael who was put out to the desert, but that goes against what we believe.....

:salamext:


Refer to this thread sister:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ishmael+gentle



Especially these posts:

http://www.islamicboard.com/8336-post11.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/10079-post14.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/12447-post24.html


http://www.islamicboard.com/13173-post28.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/13181-post30.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...h-bible-3.html



It's a previous discussion brother Ansar had with some jewish member's in the forum. He discussed how it was Isma'eel (Ishmael) who could only be the one who could be sacrificed at that time.



Peace.
Reply

lavikor201
10-24-2006, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Andaraawus
How many covenants were they ?

You did not give me an awnser. Show me proof that Ishamael was condiered part of the covanent just because he was circumscised.
Reply

doodlebug
10-24-2006, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Refer to this thread sister:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ishmael+gentle



Especially these posts:

http://www.islamicboard.com/8336-post11.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/10079-post14.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/12447-post24.html


http://www.islamicboard.com/13173-post28.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/13181-post30.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...h-bible-3.html



It's a previous discussion brother Ansar had with some jewish member's in the forum. He discussed how it was Isma'eel (Ishmael) who could only be the one who could be sacrificed at that time.



Peace.
So is he right?:?
Reply

lavikor201
10-24-2006, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
So is he right?:?
I have already spotted a few errors. many of the proofs relied upon written by authors have tainted or false information, and a general mkisunderstanding of the structure of the Tanakh.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-24-2006, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
I have already spotted a few errors. many of the proofs relied upon written by authors have tainted or false information, and a general mkisunderstanding of the structure of the Tanakh.

Do you want to discuss that with bro Ansar then? :) I'm sure he would be happy to discuss the errors with you.



Peace.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-25-2006, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
So is he right?:?

Yup, insha'Allaah.


:salamext:
Reply

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