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evangel
08-08-2006, 02:42 AM
I would like to make a couple of suggestions. Those of you who are determined to disprove the Bible could you read it first? Many of the threads that have “new” evidence that the Bible is false would not be written in the realization that they are erroneous at best and malicious lies at their worst. Many of the threads are word for word exactly the same on other posts. See, when you read something for yourself you form thoughts and understanding. This doesn’t happen when you regurgitate some tripe that has been fed to you as fact. The next time you (and you know who I’m talking to) decide to post something you have just read, I dare you to grab the Bible and ask Allah to show you truth.
The other suggestion is about taking verses out of context. Here let me show you:
“He looked at the woman and wanted to shake her…”
This guy sounds pretty angry doesn’t he? Now how about:
“He looked at the woman and wanted to shake her and then he remembered the Heimlich maneuver and was able to save her from choking.”
A little different, huh?
Those of you doing this sort of thing must not care about appearing to be deceitful. Then again if a lie will help keep someone from taking an honest look at something then I guess you’ve accomplished your purpose.
This is not addressed to all in this forum. I appreciate the open atmosphere and my Lord has put it on my heart to enter into relationship with all who will have me. This is for those malicious souls out there who do not want to discuss but wish to cause dissension with lies.

Matthew 5:33-37 "Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’
But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
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Looking4Peace
08-08-2006, 02:50 AM
I was a Catholic and after reading the bible over and over until i was blue in the face it never ever made sense to me

Also why is it that there are so many versions of the bible and it has been changed so much with each new sect of Christianity? There were days i sat in church and the persons bible next to be had different words and verses than mine on the same page etc. Also all the rift between catholics and protestants was a turn off especially when i traveled outside of major cities and they literally treated me like a devil when finding out i was catholic. I feel the religion is too split up and there is no unity within christianity which is maybe why so many people leave the church.

Once i read the Quran reading it in english and spanish and the translations being just about exactly the same is what drew me in. This may be just one reason why I converted.


I am not trying to say it is false i am just saying it has been so altered who knows what truth lies in it anymore?
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lavikor201
08-08-2006, 02:59 AM
Most of the new bibles are the opinions on different translations since some languages have a word that has no representitive in English, so they keep trying to find a good substitute.
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north_malaysian
08-08-2006, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Most of the new bibles are the opinions on different translations since some languages have a word that has no representitive in English, so they keep trying to find a good substitute.
That's why for Jews Torah must be only in Hebrew (am I right?), and for Muslims Koran must be in Arabic.... At least it's kinda 'original'
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Woodrow
08-08-2006, 03:40 AM
I believe evangel brought up a valid point. Many of us, myself included, are rash in making a statement, without showing a mutualy acceptable reason for the statement.

We need to remember, that often our statements are based on the Qur'an. If a person has neither read nor accepts the Qur'an as truth, it will not be seen as proof.

We can not "show" or "prove" , that something is false. We need to show why we believe the Qur'an to be true and then let the other person decide to accept it or disbelieve it. Simple fact, there are differences in the Bible and the Qur'an. In some area's there are great differences. Both can not be true. So it is our duty to show what we believe is true and allow the other person the freedom to decide on their own, if what they believe is true.

The opposite also hold true. We will not accept a Biblical statement as proof, since we do not believe the Bible to be fully true, in it's present form.

Something can only be shown as proof, if both views accept it as being true.
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Woodrow
08-08-2006, 03:49 AM
I just deleted a few posts. Not necessarily because they were erroneous, but because they had the potential to carry this thread off topic and into a personal arguement.
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Zulkiflim
08-08-2006, 03:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I believe evangel brought up a valid point. Many of us, myself included, are rash in making a statement, without showing a mutualy acceptable reason for the statement.

We need to remember, that often our statements are based on the Qur'an. If a person has neither read nor accepts the Qur'an as truth, it will not be seen as proof.

We can not "show" or "prove" , that something is false. We need to show why we believe the Qur'an to be true and then let the other person decide to accept it or disbelieve it. Simple fact, there are differences in the Bible and the Qur'an. In some area's there are great differences. Both can not be true. So it is our duty to show what we believe is true and allow the other person the freedom to decide on their own, if what they believe is true.

The opposite also hold true. We will not accept a Biblical statement as proof, since we do not believe the Bible to be fully true, in it's present form.

Something can only be shown as proof, if both views accept it as being true.
Salaam,

Actually for me i dont use the Quran to talk about the falseness of the Bible itself.The bible is the best testament to its own duplicity.

A trick that many chrisitan like to do when faced with a question to pull out some verse that "answer" the question but when you go to the actual chapter and versea nd read the entire artilce,it speak of different things.

So challenge them on their own book,on its own content and you will either casue them to run away or they will say " you need to beleive then to understand"...lol

But in all the argument/debate we will alwys know Islam is the truth and the Quran the essense of truth.
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evangel
08-08-2006, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
So challenge them on their own book,on its own content and you will either casue them to run away or they will say " you need to beleive then to understand"...lol

Try me, I promise I won't run away but I will pray you believe.


Philippians 1:8
For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ
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ManchesterFolk
08-10-2006, 01:51 AM
No one stepping up to the challenge?
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جوري
08-10-2006, 02:16 AM
Evangel... Muslims already believe in God, his messengers and his five books... No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah nor that his scriptures are null and void...in fact they confirm it all short of the fact that he was the son of God, along with many other passages that are in fact in contradiction to the original bible of Barnabas.... God called David his son as well does that mean he was his actual son? God gave Jesus the Injeel as he Gave the Moses the Torah....he gave the Psalms to David he gave the souhaf to Abraham, he gave the Quran to Mohammed peace be upon all of them [Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
there are quite many similarities the story of Joseph which is one of my favorites is almost identical to the Muslim version.... However there are many things which are none sensical in the bible... I went to catholic school for the greater part of my life, I attended mass along with other students... I had deep conversations with a priest who used to frequent the library and I found him to be a pious man... to me as to most Muslims Christians basically refused the seal of the prophets as the Jews have refused Jesus... and that is too bad because we are not telling you anything different from what Jesus said... if you read the fundamentals away from politics you'll see that to be a Muslim you need to attest to the onness of God, make prayers, fast, give Alms to the poor and make Pilgrimage to the house of God.... I believe Jesus mentioned the same.... How can you tell a false prophet from a true one? well what are they telling you? if they are affirming what was revealed before... and finalizing the way of worship... chances are.... they are not doing it for glory... but in the name of the one God...Muslims don't malign the characters of the prophets nor spit at his books in mockery the way the west deals with prophet Mohammed and the noble Quran peace
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dougmusr
08-10-2006, 03:38 AM
No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah
I thought Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet.

We make no distinction between any of His messengers
What does it mean for Jesus to be a prophet and also the Messiah, and how does calling Jesus the Messiah not make a distinction between Him and other prophets? Were all of them Messiahs?
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جوري
08-10-2006, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I thought Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet.?
WE do believe he was a prophet....


format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
What does it mean for Jesus to be a prophet and also the Messiah, and how does calling Jesus the Messiah not make a distinction between Him and other prophets? Were all of them Messiahs?
what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?
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north_malaysian
08-10-2006, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
WE do believe he was a prophet....



what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?
Al Masih means 'the promised one'
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جوري
08-10-2006, 04:22 AM
No bros... it really means "anointed" I am fluent in Arabic.... to rub with fragrance oil... when we say the word Masikh aldjal... look for the meaning of the word it isn't just "anti-Christ"... his description is in the name itself... Arabic is a mighty powerful language....you can ask a scholar to validate... since Allah always knows best....
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Phil12123
08-10-2006, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Evangel... Muslims already believe in God, his messengers and his five books... No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah nor that his scriptures are null and void...in fact they confirm it all short of the fact that he was the son of God, along with many other passages that are in fact in contradiction to the original bible of Barnabas.... God called David his son as well does that mean he was his actual son? God gave Jesus the Injeel as he Gave the Moses the Torah....he gave the Psalms to David he gave the souhaf to Abraham, he gave the Quran to Mohammed peace be upon all of them [Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.
there are quite many similarities the story of Joseph which is one of my favorites is almost identical to the Muslim version.... However there are many things which are none sensical in the bible... I went to catholic school for the greater part of my life, I attended mass along with other students... I had deep conversations with a priest who used to frequent the library and I found him to be a pious man... to me as to most Muslims Christians basically refused the seal of the prophets as the Jews have refused Jesus... and that is too bad because we are not telling you anything different from what Jesus said... if you read the fundamentals away from politics you'll see that to be a Muslim you need to attest to the onness of God, make prayers, fast, give Alms to the poor and make Pilgrimage to the house of God.... I believe Jesus mentioned the same.... How can you tell a false prophet from a true one? well what are they telling you? if they are affirming what was revealed before... and finalizing the way of worship... chances are.... they are not doing it for glory... but in the name of the one God...Muslims don't malign the characters of the prophets nor spit at his books in mockery the way the west deals with prophet Mohammed and the noble Quran peace
Greetings, Ambrosia. I have highlighted in bold type some things you said that I would like to comment on. I don't want to go off thread and have Woodrow delete my post (lol), though it is hard to say what is ON thread, except the two suggestions evangel has made--read the Bible for yourself and understand what you read by its context.

Christians go by what the Bible says, generally. Sometimes we may add some thoughts of our own, but basically our authority would be the Bible. The problem that often arises in Christian/Muslim dialogues is that Muslims reject the Bible and Christians reject anything in the Quran that teaches something contrary to the Bible. Muslims have been taught that the Bible is unreliable, contradictory, not the Word of God, etc., etc., so although the Bible came first, the Quran, which came hundreds of years later, is accepted as true by Muslims even if it contradicts the Bible. Now it would seem that the burden of showing the earlier scripture is not accurate or true would be on whoever says something later is more accurate or true. I have seen NO proof from any Muslim that what we have today as the Bible is not, largely if not entirely, what the original gospels, epistles, etc. said when they were first written. It all seems like just a convenient way to deny earlier scripture in favor of something later that is different, to say the earlier, as we have it, is not what it originally said.

You mention "the original bible of Barnabas." What is that? Some letter purported to have been written by Barnabas, a contemporary of Paul? Have you read it? Do you accept that as "the original bible" that the Quran does not contradict? Is that what Christians are supposed to hold as their authority, in your opinion?

You mention the psalms given to David, and yet one of the Moderators rejects what David said in Psalms 51 where he confesses his sin (adultery with Bath-sheba, etc.) and asks God to forgive him, because of some "Muslim belief" about the "infallibility of the prophets". So are the Psalms and the book of 2nd Samuel corrupted too??? If we can't go by what we have written there, why have it?

You say God gave Jesus the Injeel and yet we can't even agree on what that included! The Bible would say the Injeel, or Gospel, is that Christ died for our sins and rose again. And yet Muslims reject that because of what their later scriptures say. So how do we have a meaningful dialogue when we have no common ground as to (1) what is true scripture from God, and therefore, (2) what we should believe or reject?

It does you little good to read the Bible for yourself and in context if you reject it as untrue to begin with. If we had ONE scripture we could all agree is really the Word of God and just had differing interpretations, we could at least have some common ground for discussion---this is what it means vs. that is what it means. But the "it" would be the same.

Peace
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جوري
08-10-2006, 04:16 PM
Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best... for starters.... YES... I have read the original bible of Barnbas http://www.understanding-islam.org/r...rticle&raid=26
I have a copy here at home.... MY dad has a doctorate in history ... so before my in depth look at religion I studied history.... I have every religion and ideology book known to man in my library that is not to say I have studied Shintoism in depth but we don't censor books in this house. I believe full-heartedly that travel and reading are the biggest combatants of ignorance and folk tale.... I can answer your Q from a historical perspective and we'd get into Arius, Athanasius And St. Paul or from a religious perspective and it would be a very long discussion if it is to be sincere, without temper flares..... I firmly believe that we are complicated psychological beings ... in order for you to accept something, you'd have to be presented it without any prior bias... I don't know that, that is possible for any of us realistically speaking.... So to answer your question from the Quran I believe I quoted in the previous post, those aren't my words but the word of God, that we Muslims 2:285-------(so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers -------" but also in the Quran it states and in this same sura.... [Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
so, unless you are a historian with a keen discerning eye for events as they happened stripped from politics and religion can you really get an understanding of why the bible or the Torah are what have evolved into what they are today.... I read the Psalms when I was in 9th grade so I couldn't get into any specifics of what is true or what isn't.... I can't claim that I am a scholar.... I am learning on these forums as much as you...In life you should seek knowledge from People of knowledge.... I don't wish to venture into spheres that are NOT in my field of studies..... I hope that helped?
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Phil12123
08-10-2006, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best...
..... I hope that helped?
No, Ambrosia, it didn't really help much. I checked out the link and also read much of the "Gospel of Barnabas" which is clearly "another gospel" as Paul said in Gal. 1:

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Whoever concocted that "Gospel" (certainly not Barnabas, the contemporary of Paul) is, according to the above verses, accursed, or eternally condemned.

If you want something that was more likely written by the real Barnabas, you might check out The Epistle of Barnabas at http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...abas-lake.html. Read Chapter 5, especially.

When you get more time, please go back over my original post and comment on it, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Peace
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جوري
08-10-2006, 09:15 PM
Sorry it didn't help you much.... I have the actual bible here at home and don't need to find it through a website Muslim or Christian....... I am not sure what you'd like me to comment on? or write ... you have the bible now do you need to follow the Jewish scriptures even though Jesus came to abrogate some of what was written in there and set new rules for you? my first impulse is to say NO ... you can refute that if you want but you are not denouncing the old testament you are just not following it ... same thing with Islam ... we have the Quran.... we are not denunciating any of God's messengers nor their books but I don't need to practice my prayers as an example the Christian way with the church choir, while I enjoy the artistic part of it... I like museums... I like stained gl*** windows... I even like the candles... I don't think that is how Jesus prayed ... in fact the man was poor he self professed that the sky was his blanket and the earth was his bed ... to me that is a far cry from the opulence of the church... I think he'd pray the way Muslims do that is my opinion ... the finite details you want to have discussed as in with the Psalms or what have you ... you really need to examine with a more discerning eye with someone who is a scholar... I already stated I'll not go outside my sphere of knowledge ... my way of living isn't contingent on a psalm ... when there is much in the bible that Christians themselves ignore stating that it is are archaic.... I am sorry you don't accept Islam as a message from God ... but I am very satisfied with my choice for religion.
warmest regards
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Fishman
08-10-2006, 09:25 PM
:sl:
The gospel of Barnabas probably isn't the original. It's closer to Muslim beliefs, but it is really contradictory, and denies that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah, contradicting Muslim belief.
:w:
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*Hana*
08-11-2006, 12:03 AM
Peace to you Phil:

I get a tad frustrated with your line of thinking, which seems to be common amongst many Christians.

You insinuate that as reverts or those that leave Christianity we do so because we don't have an understanding of the bible or have never studied it and tried to understand. I, for one, can ***ure you that I have definitely studied the bible and continue to study it to this day. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is because of our understanding we left Christianity? Did you ever think that maybe we are realizing something you are not? Did you ever wonder if you're following blindly instead of logically?

Whether the Gospel of Barnabus is the original Barnabus Gospel leaves much doubt, but either way it doesn't change the fact that there are problems with the biblical text as it is today. That Gospel, authentic or not, won't change that.

You said yourself you follow the bible, GENERALLY, with some of your own thoughts. How is this following the word of God? Why don't you follow the bible as it's written without additions? You see, this is exactly the problem Christian reverts, many of us anyway, have with biblical text. Too many thoughts have been added and the original messages are lost. Imagine the number of people that have done exactly that over the past 2000 years. Scribes/Copyists all adding thoughts in an attempt to either make things more clear or to intentionally alter meaning. All you have to do is look at the different bibles. I'm not referring to translations, I mean actual bibles. One bible with 66 books, one with 73, etc. Keeping in mind, that during various councils these books have changed with some that had once been accepted being rejected and vice versa. It's not only the contradictions or errors found in the text of today, it goes far deeper than that. It is not only important to look at the text, but you must also look at the history. Who wrote what? Who gave authority to whom? What is proven as authentic and what part has its authenticity questioned and why? Which is inspired and which is not? Christian and Biblical scholars know there are textual problems, serious problems, it is not just Muslims that question some of these things.

So, please don't think we revert or leave Christianity on a whim. For many of us it is extremely difficult to face the truth. It took me 3 years to accept it, but I believe with all my heart and soul, Islam is the truth and the Qur'an is the true word of God.

As far as the Injeel in its original form as it was revealed to Jesus, pbuh, you will never find it because if it had ever been committed in written form it has long since been destroyed or lost. But, there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in His lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Not to mention translations of translations of translations. We have plenty of reasons to question the validity of the bible as we see it today.

But, whether you choose to look for yourself or continue to follow without questioning is entirely up to you. Just because many respected Christian and Biblical scholars question these things, doesn't mean they lose their faith either. But, they want to find the truth and I'm sure their hopes are to bring the bible closer to the original words as possible. I truly believe if that were done, you would see very little difference between Christianity and Islam. :)

Ok, just throwing in my 2-cents for what it's worth. lol

Peace to you,
Hana
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dougmusr
08-11-2006, 01:17 AM
what does "messiah" mean to you? Almasee7 3isa ibn maryam "Almasee7" in Arabic means Anointed... as in when you anoint someone with fragrant oil.... how does that deter from his being a prophet? Arabic/Aramaic/ Hebrew are all Semitic languages... and that is what the term means in those languages.... Aramaic being the language Jesus (PBUH) spoke.... I am not sure I understand what it is you are looking for... the meaning of the word?
If Messiah means anointed, I presume that Christ was an anointed prophet and other prophets were unanointed prophets. So how specifically does an anointed prophet differ from an unanointed prophet?

Al Masih means 'the promised one'
If Messiah means the promised one, and this term is reserved for Christ, exactly how did He differ from other prophets which were not promised ones?
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dougmusr
08-11-2006, 01:24 AM
[Pickthal 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
I am under the impression that the Quran was ***embled from manuscripts written by hand and those who wrote it claim it is from Allah. Is the distinction then that it should not be sold for profit?
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جوري
08-11-2006, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
If Messiah means anointed, I presume that Christ was an anointed prophet and other prophets were unanointed prophets. So how specifically does an anointed prophet differ from an unanointed prophet?
What does anointed mean to you? What does it mean for you to be washed in perfume? how does it relate or not relate to prophethood? many prophets/messangers had unique qualities, which they were known for, Joseph as an example was known to interpret dreams... I am sure it is a gift bestowed upon many other prophets or messengers but when we think of dream interpretation we usually think of him, why should we attribute this quality to him when others shared in it? Why is John the Baptist "prophet "yahya" known as the "Baptist" even though others were known for their cleansing rituals as well? I am not sure what you are driving at with the question otherwise.....
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Phil12123
08-11-2006, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Peace to you Phil:

I get a tad frustrated with your line of thinking, which seems to be common amongst many Christians.

You insinuate that as reverts or those that leave Christianity we do so because we don't have an understanding of the bible or have never studied it and tried to understand. I, for one, can ***ure you that I have definitely studied the bible and continue to study it to this day. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is because of our understanding we left Christianity? Did you ever think that maybe we are realizing something you are not? Did you ever wonder if you're following blindly instead of logically?

Whether the Gospel of Barnabus is the original Barnabus Gospel leaves much doubt, but either way it doesn't change the fact that there are problems with the biblical text as it is today. That Gospel, authentic or not, won't change that.

You said yourself you follow the bible, GENERALLY, with some of your own thoughts. How is this following the word of God? Why don't you follow the bible as it's written without additions? You see, this is exactly the problem Christian reverts, many of us anyway, have with biblical text. Too many thoughts have been added and the original messages are lost. Imagine the number of people that have done exactly that over the past 2000 years. Scribes/Copyists all adding thoughts in an attempt to either make things more clear or to intentionally alter meaning. All you have to do is look at the different bibles. I'm not referring to translations, I mean actual bibles. One bible with 66 books, one with 73, etc. Keeping in mind, that during various councils these books have changed with some that had once been accepted being rejected and vice versa. It's not only the contradictions or errors found in the text of today, it goes far deeper than that. It is not only important to look at the text, but you must also look at the history. Who wrote what? Who gave authority to whom? What is proven as authentic and what part has its authenticity questioned and why? Which is inspired and which is not? Christian and Biblical scholars know there are textual problems, serious problems, it is not just Muslims that question some of these things.

So, please don't think we revert or leave Christianity on a whim. For many of us it is extremely difficult to face the truth. It took me 3 years to accept it, but I believe with all my heart and soul, Islam is the truth and the Qur'an is the true word of God.

As far as the Injeel in its original form as it was revealed to Jesus, pbuh, you will never find it because if it had ever been committed in written form it has long since been destroyed or lost. But, there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in His lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Not to mention translations of translations of translations. We have plenty of reasons to question the validity of the bible as we see it today.

But, whether you choose to look for yourself or continue to follow without questioning is entirely up to you. Just because many respected Christian and Biblical scholars question these things, doesn't mean they lose their faith either. But, they want to find the truth and I'm sure their hopes are to bring the bible closer to the original words as possible. I truly believe if that were done, you would see very little difference between Christianity and Islam. :)

Ok, just throwing in my 2-cents for what it's worth. lol

Peace to you,
Hana
Greetings, Hana

Thank you for your thoughts. BTW, I notice that the word "a s s u r e" puts asterisks in for the first three letters ( a s s ), like when I tried to type the word "p a s s a g e" it came up "p***age". Must be some automatic censoring device to block certain words which might be swear words.

When I mentioned the Bible generally with some of my own thoughts, I was talking about what we go by or view as authority. My thoughts would never overrule whatever the Bible says, but in some cases there may be no scripture directly dealing with a subject. In such a case we would be permitted to, perhaps, let our conscience be our guide ("our own thoughts") or pray for the Holy Spirit to lead us or whatever. My thoughts would never be inserted into biblical texts (I'm not a translator/copyist).

You say,there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in [Jesus'] lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Are you ignoring, or at least giving no credit to God for His ability to use imperfect men to record exactly what He wants them to record? Jesus said in John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The writers of the New Testament could write decades after He said things and the Holy Spirit could still give them every single word Jesus spoke that the Spirit wanted to inspire them to write, whether in a gospel, epistle, or whatever. So why does it matter if it was written in 30 A.D. or 60 A.D.?

What you say about leaving Christianity interests me, because if you were once a Christian and then after 3 years you decided Islam is the truth, that raises some questions that I hope you don't mind answering for me. First, I'm wondering what type of Christian you were, denomination-wise. There is such a wide variety of churches, I'm curious which you were part of. Secondly, when you were in that church were you "saved" or "born again" or truly believing that Jesus had died for your sins and rose again? And finally, in your present faith, do you now reject all that, and think your sins will be somehow forgiven apart from the merits of Christ or His atoning work of redemption at Calvary?

Peace
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I am under the impression that the Quran was ***embled from manuscripts written by hand and those who wrote it claim it is from Allah. Is the distinction then that it should not be sold for profit?
I challenge you then to find someone who is fluent in Arabic to come up with similar text or as you say manuscript to that of the Quran if you wanted to stand by the claim you just made....
Reply

snakelegs
08-11-2006, 01:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
No bros... it really means "anointed" I am fluent in Arabic.... to rub with fragrance oil... when we say the word Masikh aldjal... look for the meaning of the word it isn't just "anti-Christ"... his description is in the name itself... Arabic is a mighty powerful language....you can ask a scholar to validate... since Allah always knows best....
this is exactly the meaning of the word "moshiakh" in hebrew, which is also a very powerful language. i hope someday to study arabic. i think aramaic a lot closer to hebrew.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 01:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
this is exactly the meaning of the word "moshiakh" in hebrew, which is also a very powerful language. i hope someday to study arabic. i think aramaic a lot closer to hebrew.
those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
here is a sample page of what you'd be getting
Click on a linked word below to hear it spoken.
this is the word how much is the fair in every tongue
Afrikaans Hoeveel kos 'n kaartjie?
Albanian Sa kushton bileta? Sa është çmimi i biletës?
Amharic Sint new wagaw?
Arabic Bikam al ogra'a?
Armenian Vorkan eh djampou dzaghkeh
Asturian ¿Cuántu ye la tarifa?
Azerbaijani - Bilet neçædir?
Basque Zenbat balio du bidaiak?
Bengali Vara koto hobe?
Bosnian Koliko je karta?
Breton Pegement eo ar bilhed ?
Bulgarian Kolko struva/e taksata/bileta?
Cantonese che fai gei doh chin?
Catalan Quina és la tarifa?
Chipewyan Eh jauhn heys-al hah ehglah reen ltee ah
Cornish Pygemmys yw an tokyn?
Creole Ki onpil pri-la?
Croatian Posxto je karta?
Czech Kolik stojí cesta?
Dagaare A lOOrelibiri e la awola ?
Danish Hvor meget koster en billet
Dutch Wat kost een kaartje?
English How much is the fare?
Esperanto Kiom kostas la veturo?
Estonian Kui palju on sõiduraha?
Eurish Quante vehatu?
Farsi Bi'lit Chand Ast?
Finnish Kuinka paljon kyyti maksaa?
French Quel est le prix du billet?
Frisian Wat kostet in kaartsje?
Galician Canto custa o bilhete? - ¿Canto custa o billete?
Georgian ??
German Wieviel kostet die Fahrkarte?
Greek Po'so ka'ni to isiti'rio
Gujarati bhaaDuN keTluN ?
Hawaiian Ehia `ai`é `au iá`oe?
Hebrew Kama ole kartis hanesi'a?
Hindi kiraya kitanaa hai
Holooe Aì láp goä-chë chîn?
Hungarian Mennyibe kerül a jegy?
Icelandic Hvað kostar farið: mikið? Hve hátt er fargjaldið?
Ido Quante kustas la veturo?
Indonesian Berapa biayanya?
Interlingua Quanto costa le p***age?
Irish Cad é an táille?
Italian Quanto costa il biglietto?
Japanese Unchin wa ikura desu ka.
Korean Yo-ku-mun Ol-ma-im-ni-ka
Latin Quantum vectura est? Quanti tessera constat?
Latvian Cik maksa-?
Lithuanian Kiek kainuoja bilietas?
Luganda Tikiti ey'amagenda gokka ya mmeka?
Malaysian Berapakah tambangnya?
Mandarin che- fèi duo shaov?
Marshallese Jete wonen uwe?
Mazahua ??
Norwegian Hvor mye koster billetten?
Occitan Quant còsta d'anar a ... ?
Polish Ile kosztuje przejazd?
Portuguese Quanto é que custa o bilhete?
Brazilian Portuguese Quanto é a p***agem?
Quechua ??
Romanian Cât costã biletul?
Russian Skolko stoit bilet?
Serbian Posxto je karta?
Sesotho Tekete ke bokae?
Sinhala Ga-na. Keeya.dha.?
Slovak Kol^ko stojí cesta?
Slovenian Koliko stane prevoz?
Spanish ¿Cuánto cuesta el boleto (billete)?
Swahili Nauli ni kiasi gani?
Swedish Hur mycket kostar biljetten?
Tagalog Magkano ba ang pamasahe?
Thai ka-douy-sarn-tao-rai?
Tswana Go duelwa bo kae go ya kwa...?
Turkish ücret ne kadar
Ukrainian skilky koshtuye kvytok?
Vietnamese Giá vé là bao nhiêu
Welsh Faint yw'r pris?
Wolof p*** bi nyaata la?
Xhosa Yimalini ukuya e
Yiddish vifl kost di rayze?
Zulu kumalini ukuya e...?
Reply

Woodrow
08-11-2006, 01:36 AM
Phil, using your words:

Jesus said in John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The writers of the New Testament could write decades after He said things and the Holy Spirit could still give them every single word Jesus spoke that the Spirit wanted to inspire them to write, whether in a gospel, epistle, or whatever. So why does it matter if it was written in 30 A.D. or 60 A.D.?
Would that not also make this true:

Or if it had been corrupted/misttranslated/lost to be restored in the early 7th Century
Reply

snakelegs
08-11-2006, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Dear Phil ... I don't have much time this morning to go over your requests point by point.... but will do my best... for starters.... YES... I have read the original bible of Barnbas http://www.understanding-islam.org/r...rticle&raid=26
I have a copy here at home.... MY dad has a doctorate in history ... so before my in depth look at religion I studied history.... I have every religion and ideology book known to man in my library that is not to say I have studied Shintoism in depth but we don't censor books in this house. I believe full-heartedly that travel and reading are the biggest combatants of ignorance and folk tale....
i agree with you about travel and reading (if you don't have $, it has to be reading lol) wow! you were fortunate to come from such a family! very rare.
Reply

snakelegs
08-11-2006, 01:43 AM
[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;445757]those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
thanks for the link. i've been trying to teach myself urdu for the last 3 years. (it goes very slowly). urdu isn't on that list, which seems to be common even tho there are plenty of urdu speakers. i like the fact that it has a lot of arabic and farsi words. but indo-european languages are so much harder then the semitic ones. bbc urdu comes in handy.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree with you about travel and reading (if you don't have $, it has to be reading lol) wow! you were fortunate to come from such a family! very rare.
Thank you....... All the Muslim families that I know of come from similar background or even much better... I really think you can travel on a budget (student universe).... and yes under the most stringent of circumstances a library card will do.....;)
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 01:48 AM
[QUOTE=snakelegs;445762]
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
those languages are all very similar ... you can do what I do and get a word per day through this website in the language of your choice or languages of your choice to build vocabulary
http://travlang.com/
thanks for the link. i've been trying to teach myself urdu for the last 3 years. (it goes very slowly). urdu isn't on that list, which seems to be common even tho there are plenty of urdu speakers. i like the fact that it has a lot of arabic and farsi words. but indo-european languages are so much harder then the semitic ones. bbc urdu comes in handy.
Good luck with that.... I didn't know urdu wasn't on the list =( I usually just look at three or four and have them sound it out...
Reply

snakelegs
08-11-2006, 01:53 AM
[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;445767]
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
Good luck with that.... I didn't know urdu wasn't on the list =( I usually just look at three or four and have them sound it out...
i just remembered http://urduword.com/
i completely forgot about that site.
i have an awful time with the grammar.
either i was smarter when i was younger, or i wasn't as smart as i thought i was lol.
Reply

snakelegs
08-11-2006, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Thank you....... All the Muslim families that I know of come from similar background or even much better... I really think you can travel on a budget (student universe).... and yes under the most stringent of circumstances a library card will do.....;)
i read somewhere that christians find muslims notoriously difficult to convert. that could be why.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 02:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i read somewhere that christians find muslims notoriously difficult to convert. that could be why.
Could be? I just think that many Christians treat Islam as a monolithic religion and would rather disprove it wrong by hanging on allegorical verses than actually studying it.... Which I think is the most honest method for a debate.......
هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ {7}
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
Reply

dougmusr
08-11-2006, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Phil, using your words:



Would that not also make this true:

Or if it had been corrupted/misttranslated/lost to be restored in the early 7th Century
Actually it wouldn't because the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. The only reference I can think of in the Quran to the Holy Spirit referred to Christ, not to Muhammed, and besides, Muhammed's revelation came from Gabriel.
Reply

Woodrow
08-11-2006, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
Actually it wouldn't because the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. The only reference I can think of in the Quran to the Holy Spirit referred to Christ, not to Muhammed, and besides, Muhammed's revelation came from Gabriel.
And if the Trinity does not exist, wouldn't that not make Gabriel the most logical Holy Spirit?
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dougmusr
08-11-2006, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
And if the Trinity does not exist, wouldn't that not make Gabriel the most logical Holy Spirit?
I would suspect not, unless you can show me in the Quran where it explicitly states Gabriel and the Holy Spirit were one and the same, or indicates Muhammed was strengthened by the Holy Spirit as was Christ.
Reply

dougmusr
08-11-2006, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
What does anointed mean to you? What does it mean for you to be washed in perfume? how does it relate or not relate to prophethood? many prophets/messangers had unique qualities, which they were known for, Joseph as an example was known to interpret dreams... I am sure it is a gift bestowed upon many other prophets or messengers but when we think of dream interpretation we usually think of him, why should we attribute this quality to him when others shared in it? Why is John the Baptist "prophet "yahya" known as the "Baptist" even though others were known for their cleansing rituals as well? I am not sure what you are driving at with the question otherwise.....
No one here... well, Muslims at least is telling you that Jesus wasn't the messiah
The reason why I ask is that the above post indicates that Jesus was "The Messiah". It seems that if there is only one , the meaning of Messiah is of utmost importance. Are you saying that Jesus was "The Messiah" because He was annointed with perfume and that was enough to retain the title?
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
The reason why I ask is that the above post indicates that Jesus was "The Messiah". It seems that if there is only one , the meaning of Messiah is of utmost importance. Are you saying that Jesus was "The Messiah" because He was annointed with perfume and that was enough to retain the title?
Jesus was the messiah...The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to m***age", "to anoint". Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated Grecian form, "Christ" seems unique: befitting of Jesus only ...Christos means "Anointed", and anointed means appointed in its religious connotation. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger. Every prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. Not only were prophets and priests and kings anointed (Christos-ed), but horns, and cherubs and lamp-posts also.

"I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar ..." (Genesis 31:13)

"If the priest that is anointed do sin ..." (Leviticus 4:3)

"And Moses... anointed the tabernacle and all things that was therein..." (Leviticus 8:100)

"..the Lord shall...exalt the horn of his anointed" (I Samuel 2:10)

"Thus saith the Lord to his anointed to Cyrus..." (Isaiah 45:1)

"Thou art the anointed cherub..." (Ezekiel 28:14)

In the original Hebrew, he was made a Messiah. you can read it all here if it intrigues you so...
http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html John (yahya) was the Baptist... Abraham Khalil Ullah, (Friend of God) prophet Mohammed Khatam Alrusul, the Seal of the Messengers... to each messanger a divine message to his people... Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to all man kind....Hope that answers your query??
Reply

Woodrow
08-11-2006, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I would suspect not, unless you can show me in the Quran where it explicitly states Gabriel and the Holy Spirit were one and the same, or indicates Muhammed was strengthened by the Holy Spirit as was Christ.
I can not explicity state that Gabriel and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.

I can only verify from the Qur'an:

252. These are the Signs of Allah: we rehearse them to thee in truth: verily Thou art one of the messengers. S P
2:253. Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. S P C

2:254. O ye who believe! Spend out of (the bounties) We have provided for you, before the Day comes when no bargaining (Will avail), nor friendship nor intercession. Those who reject Faith they are the wrong-doers. S P C
2:255. Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they comp*** aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

We know that Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I personaly can not offer proof as to what or who the Holy Spirit is. However He/it also came to Muhammad:

97: 1. We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power: S P C
97: 2. And what will explain to thee what the night of power is? S P
97: 3. The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. S P C
97: 4. Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand: S P C

97: 5. Peace!...This until the rise of morn! S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
Reply

dougmusr
08-11-2006, 05:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Jesus was the messiah...The word "Christ" is derived from the Hebrew word Messiah, Arabic Maseeh. Root word masaha, meaning "to rub", "to m***age", "to anoint". Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translated Grecian form, "Christ" seems unique: befitting of Jesus only ...Christos means "Anointed", and anointed means appointed in its religious connotation. Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him, was appointed (anointed) at his baptism by John the Baptist, as God's Messenger. Every prophet of God is so anointed or appointed. The Holy Bible is replete with the "anointed" ones. In the original Hebrew, he was made a Messiah. you can read it all here if it intrigues you so...
http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html John (yahya) was the Baptist... Abraham Khalil Ullah, (Friend of God) prophet Mohammed Khatam Alrusul, the Seal of the Messengers... to each messanger a divine message to his people... Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to all man kind....Hope that answers your query??
I read through the link. In general it minimizes the term Messiah to the point of meaninglessness. Then I got to this part.

Since this miracle, wine has flowed like water in Christendom. Many reason that what was good for the Master is good enough for them. Jesus was no "kill-joy" they say. Didn't he make good potent wine, that even those "well drunk", those whose senses had been dulled could make out the difference ? "That the best was kept for the last.". This was no pure grape juice. It was the same wine that, according to the Christian Bible, enabled the daughters of Lot to seduce their father (Genesis 19:32-33).It was the same wine which the Christian is advised to eschew in Ephesians 5:18 - "And be not drunk with wine..."

It is that innocent (?) 1% potency that eventually leads millions down into the gutter. America has 10 million drunkards in the midst of 70 million "born-again" Christians! The Americans call their drunkards "Problem Drinkers". In South Africa, they are called "Alcoholics"; drunkard is too strong a word for people to stomach.
This is no more fair than for me to say that all Muslims are terrorists, and if I posted a link to a site containing such an accusation it would surely be deleted, yet a Muslim can feel free to post virtually any anti-Christian propoganda he or she desires without fear. I don't drink alcohol and don't ***ociate with those that do outside of work.
Reply

جوري
08-11-2006, 05:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I read through the link. In general it minimizes the term Messiah to the point of meaninglessness. ..
What were you hoping for? he quoted your bible... explained where the words came from and what they mean....if you have a better explanation or he grossly misquoted those chapters then you should alert him at your earliest convenience. you should be familiar with your own scriptures???



format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
Then I got to this part, This is no more fair than for me to say that all Muslims are terrorists, and if I posted a link to a site containing such an accusation it would surely be deleted, yet a Muslim can feel free to post virtually any anti-Christian propoganda he or she desires without fear. I don't drink alcohol and don't ***ociate with those that do outside of work.
I don't see anywhere in there the author stating All Americans are drunkards... I believe 10 million is a small number from the 300 million that inhabit the U.S correct? I can also state with ***ertion that 22 percent of America lives in poverty and it is increasing every year.... What is it about statistical data that so offends you? You won't give anything a chance and you are certainly entitled to your beliefs..... Dr.Ahmed deedat is a respected scholar and he does his home work his beginning statement he praises the man who accommodated him with "Bill" as he is popularly addressed, without any formalities, on all his programs, by all his panelists, is extremely charming and stupendous in his humility. He is a picture of what the Holy Quran portrays of a good Christian:

"...And nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say: 'We are Christians': because among these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world. And they are not arrogant." (The Holy Quran 5:82) I think it is audacious of you to p*** accusations without even reading.... and I know you didn't read ... because if you did you'd not dare write such comments
I think you just want to hang on to any word and super analyze it...what is Christ what is anointed what is the messiah? I am not sure of the purpose of your debates? I don't know what you are driving at? and I am not really sure what you are trying to prove? As if you are to derive some epiphany from close examination of words.... If something is so bothersome to you then change it ... if you cannot change it then change how you feel about it......There is a million website with anti-Islamic sentiment that you can join if you wished and partake in the hatred uncensored.... There is nothing in this man's website that states anything remotely close to propaganda or hatred toward Christ Or Christians... in fact the converse is true to the naked eye as I have just quoted above from the same website.... I'd love to see just one website by a Christian scholar doctor or not saying anything remotely civilized of Muslims....When you try to speak against something so much you actually drive people toward it ... it is Murphy's law ... unless they are a herd who just want to echo popular sentiment....If you can't deal with any of this then don't probe ... you are bound to read something you are not going to like or see something that is in concert with your beliefs...
and with that ......have a good evening
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-11-2006, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Try me, I promise I won't run away but I will pray you believe.


Philippians 1:8
For God is my witness, how I yearn for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus.
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ
Salaam,

Sure why not another may give it a try..

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...me-answer.html
Reply

*Hana*
08-11-2006, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Greetings, Hana

Thank you for your thoughts. BTW, I notice that the word "a s s u r e" puts asterisks in for the first three letters ( a s s ), like when I tried to type the word "p a s s a g e" it came up "p***age". Must be some automatic censoring device to block certain words which might be swear words.

When I mentioned the Bible generally with some of my own thoughts, I was talking about what we go by or view as authority. My thoughts would never overrule whatever the Bible says, but in some cases there may be no scripture directly dealing with a subject. In such a case we would be permitted to, perhaps, let our conscience be our guide ("our own thoughts") or pray for the Holy Spirit to lead us or whatever. My thoughts would never be inserted into biblical texts (I'm not a translator/copyist).

You say,there is no evidence that anything was written or preserved in [Jesus'] lifetime. It is only through unauthenticated oral reporting that words have been attributed to Jesus, pbuh, in the bible. Are you ignoring, or at least giving no credit to God for His ability to use imperfect men to record exactly what He wants them to record? Jesus said in John 14:26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." The writers of the New Testament could write decades after He said things and the Holy Spirit could still give them every single word Jesus spoke that the Spirit wanted to inspire them to write, whether in a gospel, epistle, or whatever. So why does it matter if it was written in 30 A.D. or 60 A.D.?

What you say about leaving Christianity interests me, because if you were once a Christian and then after 3 years you decided Islam is the truth, that raises some questions that I hope you don't mind answering for me. First, I'm wondering what type of Christian you were, denomination-wise. There is such a wide variety of churches, I'm curious which you were part of. Secondly, when you were in that church were you "saved" or "born again" or truly believing that Jesus had died for your sins and rose again? And finally, in your present faith, do you now reject all that, and think your sins will be somehow forgiven apart from the merits of Christ or His atoning work of redemption at Calvary?

Peace
Peace to You, Phil:

I'm running real short on time right now as I have company arriving for the weekend any moment. But, I will address your post in far more detail within the next couple of days, inshallah.

Very briefly, it is obvious by what you quoted that God knew His word would not be preserved from the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh, or it would not have been necessary to send another....which is what Jesus, pbuh, said would happen. We believe the comforter referred to was Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, who was sent to all mankind to reveal God's word and as God promised, it was preserved.

Secondly, the Bible is not only the inspired word of God. Paul tells you in many places the words he is saying are not inspired but his own. (Normally I would include the chapter and verse here, but I don't have time. I promise I will provide them later if you don't already know them.) It is agreed by almost all Christian and Biblical scholars that marginal notes made by translators and copiests did eventually make their way into the main body of biblical text, and it is also well known that both Jews and Christians were guilty of altering text to best suit them....these things are not disputed by most. What is disputed is exactly what words, verses, etc. Some are more obvious than others. (Again, I will provide examples later).

Ok, moving quickly regarding my reversion to Islam. I was not a Christian for only 3 years. I was a Christian my entire life until 2 years ago when I reverted. (I won't tell you exactly how long I was Christian :p ) I was a Catholic, (and please don't say Catholics aren't Christians, because I can refute that easily and it's a copout, quite frankly.) I was a very devout Christian and believed with every ounce of my being Jesus, pbuh, died for my sins. I know the bible very well and have for a very long time. The problem is that when I asked Priests, Nuns, Minister, Elders, etc. to explain statements and/or contradictions I was told to "Just have faith" or "You don't have enough faith" That too is a copout, particularly when God said He was not the author of confusion.

For 3 years I studied Islam and argued until I was blue in the face that Muslims were wrong and were headed for the fires of Hell. At some point I stopped arguing and decided to listen and use logic. I didn't only study the text in the bible, but the history....(same for the Qur'an). By the blessings of Allah, swt, I was lead to Islam.

No, I do not believe anyone died to allow me to sin and be forgiven, absolutely not. I believe we are all accountable for what we do and we will answer for them (good and bad) on the day of Judgement. I also believe that when I sin and turn to Allah, swt, in all sincerety for forgiveness, I will be forgiven. He loves to forgive and the love He has for us far outweighs His anger. Just as Jesus, pbuh, taught...the father is not responsible for the sins of his son nor is his son responsible for the sins of his father. Meaning, no one can be blamed for another's sin, therefore, no original sin. Jesus, pbuh, never taught original sin, blood atonement or a triunion. He did say, in the bible, the way to salvation is to follow the commandments, which He said He never came to change.

Ok, the house is a mess and I have to do some power tidying!! :p

Hope to continue this conversation later. :)

Take care and peace to you,
Hana
Reply

evangel
08-12-2006, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have read the original bible of Barnbas

It's a fraud, forgery, bunko, bull. It's not worth the paper it was written on.

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/faq/gospel-barnabas.txt

Try again, and be careful who you slander.
slander n
1. saying of something false and damaging

Romans 1:30
slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
Reply

جوري
08-12-2006, 02:17 AM
OK....whatever tickles your fancy....
Reply

evangel
08-12-2006, 03:07 AM
"For the skeptic, no amount of proof will be enough, and for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary."

This applies for actual proof.



Acts 17:11-12 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.
Reply

جوري
08-12-2006, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
"For the skeptic, no amount of proof will be enough, and for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary."

This applies for actual proof.



Acts 17:11-12 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni’ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.
I am sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say?
when making an argument any argument 1st you must question what is it you hope to gain out of it? and that should actually be the code on which all tenets are based....
2-you must understand in depth what you are saying and without a reasonable doubt... not replacing questions with a "matter of faith"
3-you must understand your counterpart' point of view fully
4-you must be able to integrate and engage logically both views
5-If you aren't/weren't convinced of what you read, chances are you will not be and the same can be safely concluded of the person whom you are engaging..........
peace
Reply

evangel
08-12-2006, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say?
when making an argument any argument 1st you must question what is it you hope to gain out of it? and that should actually be the code on which all tenets are based....
2-you must understand in depth what you are saying and without a reasonable doubt... not replacing questions with a "matter of faith"
3-you must understand your counterpart' point of view fully
4-you must be able to integrate and engage logically both views
5-If you aren't/weren't convinced of what you read, chances are you will not be and the same can be safely concluded of the person whom you are engaging..........
peace
You offer a forgery as proof but in the verse I quoted Paul praises the Bereans for not just accepting what he said but searching scriptures to approve of what he says.
Reply

جوري
08-12-2006, 03:36 AM
oh I see... you convinced me.........
Reply

evangel
08-12-2006, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
oh I see... you convinced me.........

It's between you and the Lord what you accept, truth or a lie. I can neither save or condemn. I can only be obedient and preach the good news. The only thing I bring is Jesus crucified.
Reply

جوري
08-12-2006, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
It's between you and the Lord what you accept, truth or a lie. I can neither save or condemn. I can only be obedient and preach the good news. The only thing I bring is Jesus crucified.
I almost feel bad for you when you write such statements.... the truth is right in front of you... and you incessantly ignore it in favor of Greek like mythology.... is that your God on the cross in every church? the one that comes in every color? how are you different from the Pagans? what is the difference between Jesus and Hercules the son of Zeus through a mortal woman? My God man... what is wrong with you?... put all scriptures aside and think a little logically it is as if you have you have lost all reason...... You don't bring Jesus on the cross he is innocent from what you have made him evolve into.......
Reply

- Qatada -
08-12-2006, 01:04 PM
Hi evangel.


Refer to this thread to see how Muhammad (peace be upon him) is prophecised in the bible.


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...sed-bible.html


Peace.
Reply

*Hana*
08-12-2006, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
What is wrong with me is that I can see a wolf in the fold.


Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?
So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit.
A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Thus you will know them by their fruits.
Should you decide to continue slandering our Prophet, pbuh, you might want to back up your comments with proof. How about you quote the test of Prophecy found in the bible and let's see how that holds up. And, compare what you quoted along with the test and see how it mirrors Paul.

Here's a suggestion so you don't make a complete fool of yourself....stay away from Islam bashing sites. It is typical behavior when one can't back what they say to begin bashing and slandering. You are on an Islamic Forum and you resort to making unfounded, slanderous comments about our Prophet. Is this how you follow the teachings of Jesus, pbuh? Is this the Good News message you are trying to spread? "By their fruits you will know them." Interesting that you should talk like you are and quote that particular verse.

Hana
Reply

- Qatada -
08-12-2006, 02:54 PM
Refer to this thread evangel:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...phet-pbuh.html


If you keep attacking islam, then we'll have to start issuing warnings. So ask in a proper fashion.

If you don't understand something - why not just ask, instead of saying insulting comments.
Reply

evangel
08-12-2006, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Refer to this thread evangel:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...phet-pbuh.html


If you keep attacking islam, then we'll have to start issuing warnings. So ask in a proper fashion.

If you don't understand something - why not just ask, instead of saying insulting comments.
I am asking questions, and more politely than I have seen questions asked of the Bible, trinity and the crucifixtion. I ask "How can this be", about acknowledged corroborated history. So is questioning islam an attack?
Reply

جوري
08-12-2006, 04:28 PM
evangel... I thought you were sincere in pursuit of learning... apparently NOT... YOU SHOULD INDEED BE WARE OF FALSE PROPHETS Paul/Saul for starters.... now since you are so well learned you might explain this pedophilia in the bible to me and its views of women while at it, if you are to make a valid argument
thanks
Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10:
The sections of this article are:
1- Pedophilia and killing of "suckling infants" in the Bible!
2- Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex and marriage in both the Talmud and the Bible.
3- Age consent in our world today only 100 years ago to girls as young as 10.









1- Pedophilia and killing "suckling infants" in the Bible!

Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls were also ordered to be raped by Moses.



This section is divided into 2 sub-sections:

1- Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands!

2- The pedophilic verses against 3-year old girls.





1- Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.


A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!


I find it to be absolutely ridiculous that the bible feeds us all kinds of lies and contradictions about "love your enemy", and yet, we see mass slaughter of suckling infants and innocent boys, girls, unarmed men, women (old and young), and innocent domestic farm animals by the tens of thousands! It is clear that the inconsistent man-altered, man-corrupted and morally corrupt bible is nothing but a false book, and can not be a Divine and Perfect Holy Book!

I challenge any Jew or Christian to produce ONE, JUST ONE Noble Verse from the Muslims' Noble Quran that condones killing of innocent children, women or even hostile enemy men who drop their weapons before Muslims (surrender).

See the Rights of Prisoners of War in Islam.


Further more, Allah Almighty Said in the Noble Quran:

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

Yet, we see mass slaughters and even rape of 3-year old girls as seen in the verses below in the man-altered, man-fabricated and man-corrupted bible.

Based on this Noble Verse, I can safely conclude, as a Muslim, that the slaughtering stories of innocent people in the corrupted bible were nothing but man-made lies and laws that were put in the Mouth of Allah Almighty:

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-78)"



2- The Pedophilic Verses against 3-year old girls:

The pedophilic Biblical verses are Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40. Below, you will see DETAILED HISTORY on these SPECIFIC verses from the Jewish Talmud explaining the pedophilia that took place against the 3-year old slave girls under the direct command of Moses.

While Christians are not obligated to follow the laws of the Talmud in their social lives, but the historical FACTS that exist in the Talmud about the Biblical verses Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40 below, and how the "BIBLE FOLLOWERS" during those days were mostly pedophiles who literally forced sex on 3-year old girls after Moses' supposed 'Divine' order is clear indication that the Bible condones pedophilia.



Christians are not the only "Bible Followers". Jews are too!


You also need to keep in mind that Christians are not the only "Bible followers". Jews are too, and what ever they did counts for and against the Bible.

So while the pedophilic mentioned verses don't exactly specify the 3 years old minimum age limit, but they most certainly don't condemn it, and according to the Talmud's detailed elaborations on the verses, as shown below, and what actually took place during their events, the verses actually allowed it, AS MOSES HIMSELF ALLOWED IT!


Moses' Commands for pedophilia against 3-year old slave girls do count against the Bible!

As shown in the quotes below:
"....The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."

"....According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."

"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."


The detailed quotes, elaborations and bibliography are in the next section below.





2- Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible:



The Quotes and Proofs for Pedophilia Please pay attention to the bolded and underlined parts below:
The following was taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...l/judaism.html regarding Numbers 31:17-18 in the Bible:

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."


Children

Sometimes one has to read a passage twice to believe what has been written in the Sacred Books of Judaism: what has been decreed the way to a holy life by the "sages of blessed memory... whose words are the natural sounds of Judaism" [131]:



Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4].
Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]

R. Nahman bar Isaac said. "They made the decree that a gentile child should be deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15], so that an Israelite child should not hang around with him and commit pederasty [as he does]."
For said R. Zira, "I had much anguish with R. Assi, and R. Assi with R. Yohanan, and R. Yohanan with R. Yannai, and R. Yannai with R. Nathan b. Amram, and R. Nathan b. Amram with Rabbi [on this matter]: 'From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]'? And he said to me, 'On the day on which he is born.' But when I came to R. Hiyya, he said to me, 'From the age of nine years and one day.' And when I came and laid the matter before Rabbi, he said to me, 'Discard my reply and adopt that of R. Hiyya, who declared, "From what age is a gentile child deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [described at Lev.15]? From the age of nine years and one day."'
[37A] Since he is then suitable for having sexual relations, he also is deemed unclean with the flux uncleanness [of Lev.15]."
Said Rabina, "Therefore a gentile girl who is three years and one day old, since she is then suitable to have sexual relations, also imparts uncleanness of the flux variety."
That is self-evident!
Abodah Zarah 36B-37A [133]



The basis for these rulings is the following Mishnaic passage of Tractate Niddah (filth):



A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."
And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And they are liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer. If she was married to a priest, she eats heave offering. If one of those who are unfit for marriage has intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If one of all those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her did so, they are put to death on her account. But she is free of responsibility.
If she is younger than that age, intercourse with her is like putting a finger in the eye.
(Mishnah Niddah 5:4) [134]



Thus, one "of the many important issues worked out in the Mishnah concerns proper conduct with women," [135] and the "entire society of Judaism – that is, the community formed by the Torah – found in the Talmud those modes of thought and inquiry, those media of order and value, that guided the formation of public affairs and private life as well." [136]

While it is reassuring to see there was at least some limit as to what the sages would declare holy and moral, this ruling had severe implications on the interpretation of other topics as well. The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of Moses to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children:



"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known a man by sleeping with him.(Num 31:17).
[This] refers to her who has slept with a man as well as her who is suitable for intercourse, even when she has not slept with a man...
But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. From here R. Shimon b. Yohai used to say: a Proselyte girl who became a proselyte in the age of less than three years and one day, is rendered fit to marry into the priesthood." [137]



According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, Moses therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bibliography:

[131] Ibid., vol.XXI.A-D, Tractate Bava Mesia, Atlanta: Scholars Press 1990, p.ix-x.

[132] Ibid., vol.XXIII.B, Tractate Sanhedrin 1984, 150. See also vol.XIX.A, Tractate Qiddushin 10a-b, 1992, 33. "Menstruating" here of course refers to the ritual "flux uncleanness" described in Lev.15.

[133] Ibid., vol.XXV.A, Tractate Abodah Zarah, 1991, 168. Emphasis original.

[134] J. Neusner, The Talmud of Babylonia. A complete outline, Part IV. The Division of Holy Things. B. Number 37. 1995, 704.

[135] Neusner 1993, 41.

[136] Neusner 1995, 7.

[137] Kuhn 1959, §157, 652f. My translation. In general, proselytes are not allowed to marry into the priesthood.

[138] Ibid., §157, footnote 86, 653.




The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Numbers 31:17-18 "Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

In the Torah (In the Book of Numbers in the Bible), after the conquest of Midian and Moab, and the great venereal plague, Moses (peace be on him) ordered that all the women "who have known a man" be killed but that "all the young girls, who have not known a man by lying with him" be kept alive for the Israelites.

Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'

Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.

Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "



Is the GOD of Israel a pedophile? Quick side Note:
Numbers 31:35-40 "[From the captives of war] 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.......of which the tribute for the LORD was 32 [among them were virgin girls]."

Even though GOD Almighty's share of the 32 virgin girls is metaphoric, meaning that He didn't come down and have sex with them, but if any wants to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile or womanizer for marrying (not forcing into sex) a young girl and marrying multiple women throughout his life, then he should not only call his Biblical Prophets as such, but also the GOD of Israel Himself!




Anyway continuing with the above Talmudic quotes, today, the Jewish law for marriage, sets the age of consent for females at 11. (Consent is only one way of marriage) I do not know if modern Jewish law still allows (in theory) betrothal by intercourse as it was practiced in ancient times.

Thirty years ago, the renowned sexologist R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwardes said in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression (_The Cradle of Erotica_, Julian Press, New York:1962) said, "Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty."

I emailed a friend of mine, a former Jew who speaks Hebrew, and he further gave me more information regarding the Jewish view to marriage:

"I have just called up a seriously orthodox friend, a dealer in manuscripts with whom I do business, and a good fellow, to double check my response, and we are in perfect agreement. He runs a strictly orthodox and observant home and life, dresses in black, etc...I checked with him about it, as my own copy of the Code of Jewish Law is the shortened version, known as the "Kitzur Shulchan Aruch". The full book is the "Shulchan Aruch", which means "The Well-Set Table" (The Jews have a talent for clever book-titles).


This is the reference of brother Johnny Bravo's Talmudic quotes.





A girl must be 12 years old for marriage, but a 3-year old may be betrothed with the father's approval. As for the permissibility of marriage to a minor (katanah) by coition...*Fuggedaboudit!!* as they say in the Mafia. My friend assures me that *humanitarian treatment* is the final authority. If a man did that, that is, had intercourse with a minor for purposes of marriage,it would be considered a crime, even if the father approved. A girl that young would be considered unable to make a momentous decision like that. And even if she were older than 12, if it were done by force, as if she were a Moabite captive, they would be made to divorce once the circumstances were known.

Furthermore, and very importantly, the Jews are *required* to observe the "deen hammalchut"...the laws of the country in which they reside, before applying their own halacha, or laws. So the short answer is, yes, marriage by coition is considered legal, but not with a katanah, and never by force. Betrothal to a katanah is OK, but the bride must reach puberty before actual marriage and consummation. Also, according to my own exceedingly imperfect knowledge, nowhere in the Talmud is betrothal to a minor by intercourse *recommended*. If all this were permissible in the days of the Mishna, well, those days are gone."





3- Age consent in our world today only 100 years ago to girls as young as 10:

The following was sent to me by brother Johnny Bravo; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Assalam Alaiqum Brother Osama.

I thought you might find the following information of some use pertaining to the marriage of Hazrat Ayesha (RAA) with Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). I took this info from the soc.religion.islam newsgroup and it is written by various knowledgeable Muslims informing that the age of consent in the USA was 10 hardly 100 years ago and 11 in the UK, Talmud allowing 3 year olds to get married! etc. :-

"(And there is evidence that Ayesha was substantially older. That some of our ancient scholars preferred the younger age shows, in fact, that they did not consider marriage at that age to be reprehensible, otherwise they would have preferred the evidence for a later marriage and consummation.)

At the time the marriage was arranged, Muhammad had not left Makka; he was not the leader of a powerful community; indeed, his life was in danger. I raise this point because it is asserted, sometimes, that, essentially, he could have whatever he wanted. Rather, if this marriage had been an outrage to the community, it would have been *very* harmful to his cause."

Above comments by Abdulrahman Lomax.

The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)

The Prophet's contemporaries (both enemies and friends) clearly accepted the Prophet's marriage to `Aisha without any problem. We see the evidence for this by the lack of criticism against the marriage until modern times. However, a change in culture caused the change in our times today.

A 40-year-old man having sex with a 14-year-old woman may be a "pedophile" in the USA today, but not in China today (where the age of consent is 14), nor in the USA last century. Biology is a much better standard by which to determine these things in my view, not the arbitrariness of human culture.


***** In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too. (Source: http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)

As for the reasons why we age of consent just seems to get higher and higher, Essentially, we need more education just to survive in today's society, and this takes much more time. This additional education we need to function in today's society seems to me to be the main cause of the increase in the age of consent in many 20th century societies. The Common Law age of consent was 10. The French penal code raised the age from 11 to 13 only a century ago. In England, it was only in 1929 (70 years ago) that the ancient Christian minimum age for the marriage of females, which was 12, was abandoned. The early rock and roll singer Jerry Lee Lewis was considerably older than his 13 cousin whom he married in all legality in Arkansas. Since then, the age there has been raised to 16. That marriage lasted for about 15 years and there was never any other "scandal" associated with Jerry Lee Lewis. The story is quite different, however, for his cousin Jimmy Swaggart (the well-known and disgraced tele-evangelist) who married a woman his own age but later publicly confessed that he was an adulterer and a *****monger.

In the seventh century, 3 year old girls were burned to death or tortured in Europe for copulating with demons, witches and sorcerers. Strong sexual passions were attributed to the youngest children. Even Jean Bodin, one of the greatest legal authorities of his time, said that the appropriate age of consent for a female was 6. (I do not mean to suggest that 3 year olds did in fact have sexual relations with demons. It is however interesting to see that at that time it was publicly believed that child-adult relations were the fault of seductive children who sought out mature men rather than today's popular belief that it is instead pedophiliac adults who prey on innocent, unsuspecting children.)

In the US (an example of a prominent western country, since the west had the greatest effect on the world in the last couple of centuries.) They considered a seven year old female competent on making decisions regarding sex, though it was raised later on (in 1886, after attempts to raise the age of consent, Delaware was the only state to retain the common law age of seven, while twenty five states set the minimum age at a mere ten.) In older times, children were not perceived in the same sense that we perceive them, but the perception was changed gradually, which is due to a great extent to industrialization, and of course sigmund freud and others came along with their theories and supported these changes in social thinking (the word adolescent itself was introduced as recently as 1904.)
And now views of women.. Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
""....and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss" Ecclesiasticus 22:3 (From the New Jerusalem Bible. It's a Roman Catholics Bible).Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:11-14
"Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. IN THE SAME WAY, the husband's body does not belong to him alone BUT ALSO TO HIS WIFE. Do not deprive each other except by MUTUAL consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 1 Corinthians 7:1-5
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days." Leviticus 12:2-5 (exists in all Bibles).
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-12-2006, 04:39 PM
It is a pity that some Christians can not respond to the theological arguments or scriptural analysis of Muslims except with lies and slander against the persona of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. These lies were refuted in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...phet-pbuh.html

The false allegation of pedophilia has been debunked in the following places:
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html


:threadclo
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