Holocaust VS Holy Land

[Lamaggad]

The third oath was that the Jews would stay in there countries and not go back in mass to the Holy Land unless they were being persecuted.

The Holocaust which killed 1/3 of every Jew on this earth is considered persecution if you did not know that. Therefore, the Jews were aloud to go back to the Holy Land.

Now Jews who disagree were mostly not effected by the Holocaust, but it is irelevant if they were effected by it or not. The Jewish people as a whole were persecuted therefore it was okay for them to leave there countries in Europe to go back to there ancestors land.

Since Jews have posted their believes about the Holy Land... then i think it's our right that Jews should understand our rights and believes in this Land too.

I'm really wondering, how come Jews give them selves the right to go back to the holy land bcz of the Holocaust that broke the third oath...?!?!?
What about Muslims who doesn't believe in that oath?!? we shouldn't be forced to have them in our land bcz they believe that they are allowed or what ever?!?!

but let's look at it this way since they came back to Palestine for the second time after Islam and Qur'an...

if Jews believe they are allowed to come back to the Holy Land, Muslims also believe that they are allowed by God to resist and defend their country and Holy Land by all means.

another thing that is good to share too, Jews have completely proved verses in Qur'an that they keep denying...

111:17 . سورة الاسراء
وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوًّا كَبِيرًا

[17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: indeed you would do mischief in the land twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!

And also this verse...

سورة المائدة 32: 120
مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَنْ قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الْأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ

[120:32] Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!.

You can call this thread what ever you like... Discussion, Debate, Information... any thing.
it's up to the member on how they are going to react when reading this.

how ever, who ever would like to discuss, I kindly request that you share your point of view decently without offending Islam or Qur'an.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

In this it is about 2 religon.

JUdaism and Christianity.

Their Propehy are entwined but with different endings.

The Chrisitan Prophecy of rapture and the Judaist Prophecy of Messiah.

Jewish Prophecy say that Jews shall return to the holy land and rebuilt their temple with their messaih,then all the people will elarn the true reliogn and jews will the chosen to rule the world.They will be as masters while the rest are their servants.

For the Chrisitan Prophecy,the Jews must be in Israel for Jesus to appear,BEfore that the anti christ(or to the jew the messiah) will come and will destroy the world ,then Jesus shall reutrn to destroy the anti christ and all jews who do not convert to chrsitiantiy will be murdered.

So you see this is man made prophecy,it was in their scripture but because of their lack of faith they WANT IT TO HAPPEN NOW.

[Joe98]

.....all jews who do not convert to chrsitiantiy will be murdered.

That would be silly. Please quote the paragraph.

[lavikor201]

Jewish Prophecy say that Jews shall return to the holy land and rebuilt their temple with their messaih,then all the people will elarn the true reliogn and jews will the chosen to rule the world.They will be as masters while the rest are their servants.

Thats ridiculous, and it shows how little amount of brain power you have, or just how you are a pathological liar.

When the Jewish Messiah comes, he will rebuild the temple on the temple! But all you people will not care. The Moshiach will prove to all that Judaism is the religion, but he will not ask you to convert.

He will ask you to recongnize the wrong you did to the Jewish people, and recongnize that you must follow the seven laws of noah which any non-jew who follows will go to heaven.

The Jews will not be rulers, the Jews will just finally be able to live in peace in there land, the land of Israel, and all the peoples of the world will come to the Jews to gain more knowledge, and to understand G-d's true message, because they followed a wrong one all these times, but there heart was in the right place because they thought with all there heart what they were doing was what G-d wanted.

Now about all the Quran verses you posted. They are irrelavent to any Jew because the Quran has 0 signifigance to us. If the Quran never was written it would have no effect on Jewish law. If the Torah was not given to us by G-d, Islam wouldn't exist most likley.

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[AvarAllahNoor]

Thats ridiculous, and it shows how little amount of brain power you have, or just how you are a pathological liar.

When the Jewish Messiah comes, he will rebuild the temple on the temple! But all you people will not care. The Moshiach will prove to all that Judaism is the religion, but he will not ask you to convert.

He will ask you to recongnize the wrong you did to the Jewish people, and recongnize that you must follow the seven laws of noah which any non-jew who follows will go to heaven.

The Jews will not be rulers, the Jews will just finally be able to live in peace in there land, the land of Israel, and all the peoples of the world will come to the Jews to gain more knowledge, and to understand G-d's true message, because they followed a wrong one all these times, but there heart was in the right place because they thought with all there heart what they were doing was what G-d wanted.

Now about all the Quran verses you posted. They are irrelavent to any Jew because the Quran has 0 signifigance to us. If the Quran never was written it would have no effect on Jewish law. If the Torah was not given to us by G-d, Islam wouldn't exist most likley.

Sounds good to me. At least Judaism isn't rammed down people's throats!

[Zulkiflim]

Thats ridiculous, and it shows how little amount of brain power you have, or just how you are a pathological liar.

When the Jewish Messiah comes, he will rebuild the temple on the temple! But all you people will not care. The Moshiach will prove to all that Judaism is the religion, but he will not ask you to convert.

He will ask you to recongnize the wrong you did to the Jewish people, and recongnize that you must follow the seven laws of noah which any non-jew who follows will go to heaven.

The Jews will not be rulers, the Jews will just finally be able to live in peace in there land, the land of Israel, and all the peoples of the world will come to the Jews to gain more knowledge, and to understand G-d's true message, because they followed a wrong one all these times, but there heart was in the right place because they thought with all there heart what they were doing was what G-d wanted.

Now about all the Quran verses you posted. They are irrelavent to any Jew because the Quran has 0 signifigance to us. If the Quran never was written it would have no effect on Jewish law. If the Torah was not given to us by G-d, Islam wouldn't exist most likley.

Salaam,

the answer you have given and you still doubt it..

Let me repost your own words for you..
1) rebuild the temple on the temple..Where? By destroying the dome of the rock.

2) And you all will not care...Really well perhaps other wont care but muslim do.

2) ask you to recongnize the wrong you did to the Jewish people..Sorry what was done to the Jewish people?They lived in germany (well most of them ,and they were killed,then they forced themselves into the Palestine and thousands of people and you say that we have to recognize the what was done to them?

Gee what a wonderful messiah,for Jew trutha nd jew justice..not for trutha nd justice perss.

3) and recongnize that you must follow the seven laws of noah which any non-jew who follows will go to heaven....forcing other to follow the seven laws of noah...and MUST..wow...

4) the jews will then be able to live in peace...well lets see,the Jews invaded a land,killed it inhabitant and then make war to 2 nations then claim that it want peace..But here is the important part..JEW will be able to live in peace..NOT ALL WILL BE ABLE TO LIVE IN PEACE..
Jews will live in peace at the expense of the others,mayhap all palestinian nd lebanese and every other person who will fight the idea of Israel will be killed,but will that stop the hatred towards Israel..No why becasue the jews do not want to live with other in PEACE they want to live in PEACE ALONE.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Of course as i said before,your messiah for the chrsitian is the anti christ,and you will be killed for serving the anti christ and not converting to christianity

[Zulkiflim]

That would be silly. Please quote the paragraph.

Salaam,

Here it is..

[PIE]In the prophecy watching of dispensational premillennialism, Israel, Israelis and Jews in general play a central role in the "end times" drama. Their roles in this narrative means they must either be converted to premillennialist version of Christianity or be led astray by the Antichrist. There is no choice to remain Jewish. The only other option, for those who remain Jewish in this narrative, is to be destroyed by either the Antichrist, or in the end, by the militant avenger, the victorious Jesus Christ himself. A great part of this comes from the Christian fundamentalist belief in Jews as the "deniers" of Jesus as the Messiah, as was mentioned above as something that has long fueled anti-Semitism among Christians. In the Left Behind books, these "deniers" are seen as "incomplete Jews," a notion that is central to the Left Behind novels, making Jews the pivotal players in this fantastical prophetic drama, much to their dismay. For these are "incomplete Jews" waiting to be turned into "believing Jews," meaning converts to this sect of Christianity, if you follow the narrative of the Left Behind books.

A paradoxical aspect of dispensational premillennialism is an overt support for the "State of Israel" by these believers in real life, often called philo-Semitism, as opposed to anti-Semitism. This support lies in their belief that the current state of Israel must expand and take possession of the land that was the Biblical "Land of Israel" which accounts for their massive support of Jewish expansion of settlements, the return of Jews to Israel, and support of far-right messianic Jewish groups that have similar goals based on their own readings of prophecy. This support is also often called Christian Zionism. Far from being for a love or respect for Judaism in its own regard, the end game for premillennialists is the idea that 144,000 Jews in that Biblical expanded State of Israel will convert to Christianity, becoming "believing Jews" and not the "incomplete Jews" they were before. The rest, sadly, will be eliminated in this ideology.[/PIE]


[PIE]For these books, LaHaye provides Jenkins with a detailed outline of prophecy based on the beliefs of dispensational premillennialism, a previously minor Protestant belief system that proposes a "Rapture" of "true believers" to Heaven prior to a seven-year period of tribulation culminating in the return of Jesus Christ and the Battle of Armageddon between the true believers and Satan. These beliefs came into being only 150 years ago when Scottish preacher John Darby formulated the ideas, ideas later disseminated in popular bibles such as the Scofield Reference Bible. They found a home in Protestant fundamentalism in the US and were propagated throughout academic systems, mainly through the Dallas Theological Seminary. The beliefs of dispensational premillennialism are then converted into a fictional narrative set in the present day and hung on the scaffolding of premillennialist prophecy interpretation, mostly based on the interpretation of the Book of Revelations. Besides LaHaye, evangelists such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are among the most well-known believers in these doctrines.[/PIE]


http://www.nthposition.com/justwhatareincomplete.php

And of course more..

[PIE]The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried" (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah’s prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah. [John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, [1962] 1988), p. 108.

Nothing can or will be done by Christians to save Israel’s Jews from this disaster, for all of the Christians will have been removed from this world three and a half years prior to the beginning of this 42-month period of tribulation. (The total period of seven years is interpreted as the fulfillment of the seventieth week of Daniel [Dan. 9:27].)

In order for most of today’s Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement’s support for Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were militarily removed from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians’ imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture.

[/PIE]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html

Of course if you want there are more DISTURBING links to what some chrisitan beleive.And why the Chrisitan so want Isreal to be.


So as i say Jews and Chrisitans want the same Propehcies but differnt ending.

For the Jews they want to be masters of this world,for the chrsitian they want the jews to be there to die so that they can asecend to heaven.

Deplorable and sick...

[جوري]

Who Wants A Master Race
To Enslave Humanity?
8-6-6



"Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considred as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet, and serve us as our slaves."

Now, who said it?
Was it Hitler?
Was it Stalin?

Menachem Begin
(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

[Zulkiflim]

Who Wants A Master Race
To Enslave Humanity?
8-6-6



"Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considred as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet, and serve us as our slaves."

Now, who said it?
Was it Hitler?
Was it Stalin?

Menachem Begin
(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

Salaam.

May Allah protect the ummah from false pride and ego.

May muslim rise up with Islamic values and never forget the laws of Islam
May muslim win the tribulation while remaining muslim,adept at Islmaic laws and wise in every action.

May Allah make the ummah strong and make us strong and patience .
Increase our faith and increase our tolerance and our mercy.

Allah oh Allah,we will always worship you,and out piety is our only woth to give to you
Oh Allah ,makes the hyprocrites clear and may you cause them to learn.

[מדינת ישׂראל]

well lets see,the Jews invaded a land

The Jews have been living in the Holy Land thousands of years before Islam. History supports the statement which says 'you stole it from us!'

And you all will not care...Really well perhaps other wont care but muslim do.

Once the Moshiach comes, you will care less about the Dome of the Rock.

The truth will be revealed to you, and the Dome of the Rock will not have any importance to Muslims, because they will know G-d's message.

[جوري]

Again... the original Jews of the land aren't the Jews of today.... the minority of you are of middle eastern origin <5%... the rest of the inhabitants became Christians when Jesus came then Muslim.... furtheremore the land of Cannan had a history long before the Jewish tribes moved there.... Israel as we know it today isn't Jacob (PBUH) but an impostor sporting a holy crown, it is a secular, colonial apartheid state.... if I converted to Judaism right now would I be entitled to a piece just by virtue of being a Jew? NO... same would go for Jews who converted in the 7th century.... your laws are null and void where the rest of humanity is concerned.... I thought you wanted to keep this civil?

[Lamaggad]

When the Jewish Messiah comes, he will rebuild the temple on the temple! But all you people will not care. The Moshiach will prove to all that Judaism is the religion, but he will not ask you to convert.

it's exactly the opposite in the Islamic beliefs since Qur'an and Islam state other wise, But any way...
You are basically contradicting your self BADLY... and let me explain why sine I'm only discussing what you have said.

you are saying the Moshiach is coming to prove to all that Judaism is the religion, but he will not ask you to convert.

i will ask you here, why does he have to prove it any way since who isn't Jewish can follow the 7 laws and go to heaven.. there's no point basically in proving your faith..

if we are denying your beliefs that doesn't mean that we can't go to heaven based on the 7 laws.

Specially Muslims already apply those 7 Laws and it's their in there beliefs, so basically no point to know that your religion is false or true, specially it has long 613 laws that is a hustle to some Jews them selves...
so we can basically prevent that hustle and risk, stick to our religion, follow the 7 laws that we already have in Islam.. and viola ---> go to heaven

second... you were saying

He will ask you to recongnize the wrong you did to the Jewish people, and recongnize that you must follow the seven laws of noah which any non-jew who follows will go to heaven.

What is it so special by Jewish people while you have said before that every one is a children of God..? Jewish have done crimes to us too... they should be questioned as well... that isn't fair at all...

you are perfectly proving that Jews are the chosen people who are better than any one else...
at least Islam doesn't differentiate between any Muslim expect of his heart and good deeds.. not being a Jew or a children of israel or Arab... not to mention that Qur'an is in Arabic and Prophet Muhammad is Arab and our prayers are in Arabic not any other language... but still that doesn't mean at all that Muslims Arabs are better than any other Muslim in this world except for his true faith and good deeds.

that is what make Islam better than Judaism and any other religion weather you want to believe it or not...

Extra info. for you: in heaven, Every body will be speaking Arabic over there... so if you are one of the people who will enter havean, then you will be speaking Arabic. :)

I'll reply to the rest of your post soon my friend :)

[Zulkiflim]

The Jews have been living in the Holy Land thousands of years before Islam. History supports the statement which says 'you stole it from us!'



Once the Moshiach comes, you will care less about the Dome of the Rock.

The truth will be revealed to you, and the Dome of the Rock will not have any importance to Muslims, because they will know G-d's message.

Salaam,

Let me ask you,so if a race has been living in that land for thousand of year does that mena they are entittled to that land?

what makes you special?

should Australia return to to the aborigenes?
Should the US return tot he indians?
Should Canada retrun to the yanuks?
Should Singapore return to the Malays?
Should the Kurd have their nation and take over part of turkey?

Also as you have pointed out,before the Jewish nation other people lived in that land ,should you give it up to them??

Also jew have living in harmony with Muslim and chrisitan in the land UNTIL the jews entered and massacred the muslim there.

And as you say your messiah means nothing to us and mean little more than your torah,a book chaged for a paltry price.
Muslim will always care for the Holy Land,we do nto worship it for the messiah or to build a temply but out of faith.

you worship the wailing wall for a past loast,for a past glroy long lost, and a propehcy that will confimr your faith.

that siad,the more you pray at the wall,all the more it shows that you want power and glory and not piety to god.

[מדינת ישׂראל]

Let me ask you,so if a race has been living in that land for thousand of year does that mena they are entittled to that land?

Thank you for awnsering the question.

By your logic, the Palestinians are obviously not entitled to the land either. Meaning the state of Israel is completly legal, since the Palestinians/Arabs haven't even been living in the Holy Land for 1 thousand years, so they are obviously not entilted to it.

you worship the wailing wall for a past loast,for a past glroy long lost, and a propehcy that will confimr your faith.

We do not 'worship' anything other than G-d. It is a holy site though because it is the closest to our Holy Temple we can get, and it represents one of the Holiest places on earth.

[Zulkiflim]

Thank you for awnsering the question.

By your logic, the Palestinians are obviously not entitled to the land either. Meaning the state of Israel is completly legal, since the Palestinians/Arabs haven't even been living in the Holy Land for 1 thousand years, so they are obviously not entilted to it.



We do not 'worship' anything other than G-d. It is a holy site though because it is the closest to our Holy Temple we can get, and it represents one of the Holiest places on earth.

Salaam,

If going by that logic no people can go anywhere,but what matter is that we live in that land in peace not by force.

Jews have been living in the Holy Land even before Israel,so what was wrong?As Lavikor has said,even before Israel his family have lived there for generations.

Why did there have to be a jewish nation?
were not jews under muslim rule in palestine given the right to worship as they please?
were not chrisitans?

Now let us talk about the wailing wall..

1) Is the wall itself HOLY? NO

2) What made the old temple Holy?
Becasue the presence of the arc of the covenant and thus the Seat of Mercy.

3) before the temple,the tabernalce which is a moving temple,consist of the covenant and was set up everywhere the jews went,so does that make every wall and every stone and every land that the covenant was HOLY?

No.

May i ask you,if a piece of stone from the wall were to be carried by a jew to the US ,will it still be holy?

so ask yourself,why do you pray in remebrance of past glory?or do you pray to god?

are you asking god to give your gifts and power becasue you desire it?or becasue you are entittled to it or you ahd worked for it?

[מדינת ישׂראל]

i will ask you here, why does he have to prove it any way since who isn't Jewish can follow the 7 laws and go to heaven.. there's no point basically in proving your faith..

Of course there is. The New Testament, and the Quran are both false revalations according to Judaism. Therefore, proving our faith will finally make the world clear by showing that there was no other word from G-d than the Torah.

were not jews under muslim rule in palestine given the right to worship as they please?
were not chrisitans?

In many cases there were Arab riots, ect that did not allow freedom of worship in the Holy Land. The Arabs refused to let Jews pray at the Western Wall for example... so was there freedom of religion, in many cases no.

The Hebron massacre refers to the violent destruction of the ancient Jewish community of Hebron by Arab rioters in late August of 1929.

In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem became steadily more violent, and erupted in a series of Arab riots against Jews during a week in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs).

2) What made the old temple Holy?
Becasue the presence of the arc of the covenant and thus the Seat of Mercy.

The Temple was holy because the Mitzvot we could accomplish in it, as well as the Arc which the Moshiach will show us where it is.

3) before the temple,the tabernalce which is a moving temple,consist of the covenant and was set up everywhere the jews went,so does that make every wall and every stone and every land that the covenant was HOLY?

The Tabernacle was just a substitution until the temple could be built.


Here is a little something on the Western Wall, educate youself:

Jews have prayed at the Western Wall for two thousand years, believing that that spot has greater holiness than any other accessible place on Earth, or the fourth holiest overall, after the Holy of Holies, the rest of the Temple area, and the Courtyard, and that God is nearby listening to their prayers. The tradition of placing prayer written on the small piece of paper into a crack in the Wall goes back thousands of years. Included in the thrice daily Jewish prayers are fervent pleas that God return to the Land of Israel, ingather all the Jewish exiles, rebuild the Third Temple, and bring the messianic era with the arrival of Jewish Messiah (Mashiach).

The Western Wall is holy to the Jewish people because this wall is part of a wall that encompasses the Temple Mount along with the southern and eastern sections. This encompassing wall is thought to be the only remnant of the Temple in Jerusalem and the closest site to the "Holy of Holies", the most holy site in Judaism. Of the three wall sections, eastern, southern and western, the western is the traditional site of prayer.

Holy in Islam?
The site is also holy to Muslims, who believe Solomon to be a prophet. Muslims believe that Muhammad made a spiritual journey to Jerusalem in 620 CE on a winged beast named al-Buraq, which is referred to as Isra and Mi'raj. While there, it is believed he tethered the horse to a wall, which some Muslims believe to be the Western wall. Hence the Arabic name for the wall is the al-Buraq Wall. To commemorate the same belief, in 687 AD Muslims built the Dome of the Rock and the nearby Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount, encompassed by the wall.

This theory however is heavily disputed. For example, in the "Encyclopedia of Islam," there is no mention of the Western Wall in relation to Al-Burak. In the entry under Hara al Sharif, the wall is called the "Wailing Wall" without any reference to it's being sacred to Islam. Official guidebooks issued by the Waqf as recently as 1990 say nothing about the Western Wall being significant to Islam.

[Lamaggad]

The Jews will not be rulers, the Jews will just finally be able to live in peace in there land, the land of Israel, and all the peoples of the world will come to the Jews to gain more knowledge, and to understand G-d's true message, because they followed a wrong one all these times, but there heart was in the right place because they thought with all there heart what they were doing was what G-d wanted.

that's very true, Jews won't be rulers and will not.. the only reason they are ruling now, is bcz of Money and Power, not bcz they have right in the Muslims Lands. Unlike Muslims who is ruling bcz of the fact of that strong faith they have "Islam", not bcz they have money or weapons or power... We are right-holders.


Learning knowledge from Jews?!!??!
After Qur'an there is no knowledge above the knowledge that God have gave to ALL Muslim nations not just ARABS in the Qur'an...
you are sooo wrong if that's what you think that people will learn from Jews ONLY... days will keep going by till the day you'll learn that about Qur'an your self... and I really hope that that day will come soon.

Now about all the Quran verses you posted. They are irrelavent to any Jew because the Quran has 0 signifigance to us. If the Quran never was written it would have no effect on Jewish law. If the Torah was not given to us by G-d, Islam wouldn't exist most likley.

Verses I have posted proofs facts that is going on right now... i'm not asking you to believe it... but weather you believe it or not... it's true and it did happen. and you can't deny that it didn't.

Your beliefs of Torah and Holy Land isn't irrelevant to any Muslim too bcz Torah have lost it's original revelation.. for that... we aren't suppose to accept israel existence as a state in a Muslim land bcz of some false beliefs...

If Torah wasn't fabricated, and you and all Jews were following real Torah that has the exact words of God, Life would be much more peaceful than the suffer that Lebanese and Palestinian are living under israel who is treating Arabs like animals.

[מדינת ישׂראל]

Ah Lammagad, believe whatever your little heart desires. Your screaming like a little child.

Hopefully the Moshiach will come soon, and hopefully you will throw away your pride when G-d's message is revealed.

[Lamaggad]

Ah Lammagad, believe whatever your little heart desires. Your screaming like a little child.

Hopefully the Moshiach will come soon, and hopefully you will throw away your pride when G-d's message is revealed.

Ah מדינת ישׂראל, you're the one who's acting like a baby, you aren't able to prove me wrong...
you'll be very surprised when the Moshiach will come...

i think you should keep your non-sense comments to your self.

[מדינת ישׂראל]

Ah מדינת ישׂראל, you're the one who's acting like a baby, you aren't able to prove me wrong...
you'll be very surprised when the Moshiach will come...

i think you should keep your non-sense comments to your self.

Keep talking. It is quite funny.

Tell us more about how I will be 'suprised' when the Moshiach comes.

:giggling:

[Zulkiflim]

Of course there is. The New Testament, and the Quran are both false revalations according to Judaism. Therefore, proving our faith will finally make the world clear by showing that there was no other word from G-d than the Torah.

[PIE]Salaam,

Actually the Quran the unchaged book,say clearly that both your book are changed to suit your needs.[/PIE]



In many cases there were Arab riots, ect that did not allow freedom of worship in the Holy Land. The Arabs refused to let Jews pray at the Western Wall for example... so was there freedom of religion, in many cases no.

The Hebron massacre refers to the violent destruction of the ancient Jewish community of Hebron by Arab rioters in late August of 1929.

In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem became steadily more violent, and erupted in a series of Arab riots against Jews during a week in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs).

[PIE]So as you say in "many cases" no,but why dont you post the link for the entire "accusation"..It would be itnersting to read form your point of view,of course there are always two sides of the same story.
[/PIE]


The Temple was holy because the Mitzvot we could accomplish in it, as well as the Arc which the Moshiach will show us where it is.

[PIE]As i said,i agree that the templ is holy DUE to the Arc,but why do you now pray to the wall? a piece of stone?
As i said before,you pray to the wall not for closeness to god but as a linkt o a ONCE glorious path that was destroyed TWICE.
and will be destroyed again.[/PIE]



The Tabernacle was just a substitution until the temple could be built.

[PIE]That dont answer the question,is the area around where the tabernacle is situated be considered HOLY?
Is every rock grain and stone where the tabernacle is set up be considered holy after the tabernacle is no longer there?

what is the difference between the tabernacle and the temple?
One fixed the other not...
So what is the commonality between the two?

the arc of the covenant or the seat of mercy.

If the elder jews noted down the location of where the tabernacle were erected,would you pray at the stones and sand?



[/PIE]


Here is a little something on the Western Wall, educate youself:

Jews have prayed at the Western Wall for two thousand years, believing that that spot has greater holiness than any other accessible place on Earth, or the fourth holiest overall, after the Holy of Holies, the rest of the Temple area, and the Courtyard, and that God is nearby listening to their prayers. The tradition of placing prayer written on the small piece of paper into a crack in the Wall goes back thousands of years. Included in the thrice daily Jewish prayers are fervent pleas that God return to the Land of Israel, ingather all the Jewish exiles, rebuild the Third Temple, and bring the messianic era with the arrival of Jewish Messiah (Mashiach).

The Western Wall is holy to the Jewish people because this wall is part of a wall that encompasses the Temple Mount along with the southern and eastern sections. This encompassing wall is thought to be the only remnant of the Temple in Jerusalem and the closest site to the "Holy of Holies", the most holy site in Judaism. Of the three wall sections, eastern, southern and western, the western is the traditional site of prayer.

Holy in Islam?
The site is also holy to Muslims, who believe Solomon to be a prophet. Muslims believe that Muhammad made a spiritual journey to Jerusalem in 620 CE on a winged beast named al-Buraq, which is referred to as Isra and Mi'raj. While there, it is believed he tethered the horse to a wall, which some Muslims believe to be the Western wall. Hence the Arabic name for the wall is the al-Buraq Wall. To commemorate the same belief, in 687 AD Muslims built the Dome of the Rock and the nearby Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount, encompassed by the wall.

This theory however is heavily disputed. For example, in the "Encyclopedia of Islam," there is no mention of the Western Wall in relation to Al-Burak. In the entry under Hara al Sharif, the wall is called the "Wailing Wall" without any reference to it's being sacred to Islam. Official guidebooks issued by the Waqf as recently as 1990 say nothing about the Western Wall being significant to Islam

[PIE]Good read but again it seems you read it but dont udnerstand it or maybe you want to perceive the wall a THING to be holy..

Now key word, that are in red
Why dotn you re read it agian...thanks..

[/PIE]

[lavikor201]

According to Judaism's religious texts, when the legions of Titus destroyed the Temple, only a part of an outer court-yard "western wall" remained standing. Jewish texts teach that Titus left it as a bitter reminder to the Jews that Rome had vanquished Judea. The Jews, however, attributed it to a promise made by G-d that some part of the holy Temple would be left standing as a sign of G-d's unbroken bond with the Jewish people in spite of the catastrophes which had befallen them.

[Zulkiflim]

According to Judaism's religious texts, when the legions of Titus destroyed the Temple, only a part of an outer court-yard "western wall" remained standing. Jewish texts teach that Titus left it as a bitter reminder to the Jews that Rome had vanquished Judea. The Jews, however, attributed it to a promise made by G-d that some part of the holy Temple would be left standing as a sign of G-d's unbroken bond with the Jewish people in spite of the catastrophes which had befallen them.

Salaam,

Yes that is correct the temple was destroyed and the wall remain as a testament to titus might and the jewish loss.

But may i ask,do you know why titus attacked the jews?

Also,as again Jews "attributed" it with a sign fro a continuity form god..
So it is just a feel good story.

As i have maintained,no where does the torah say that the sotnes of the temple are holy,only what is inside and that is the Arc of the Covenant.

Your desire to worship this wall show that you are not worshipping god but for the idea that your glorious path will return.

As always from a people who want a power and greatness,it will never be enough and god will alwyas be aservant to their deisres.
And when that god does not give,they fall out of faith.

i would ask you to remember the time when the jews were taken out of egypt with Allah blessing and after witnessing so many miracles they still after just af ew day worshipped a calf...a golden calf...

So be careful of those who desires miracles to confrim faith,for their want will never be enough..

So continue to worship the wall,a wall.....sad.......

[lavikor201]

Your desire to worship this wall show that you are not worshipping god but for the idea that your glorious path will return.

Your very laughable. You don't have even a conception of what your talking about. You say we 'worship' the wall.

The Wall is a symbol that G-d is still with the Jews, and that G-d will never let the Arab world destroy the Jews.

Your to blind to see it.

i would ask you to remember the time when the jews were taken out of egypt with Allah blessing and after witnessing so many miracles they still after just af ew day worshipped a calf...a golden calf...

Those were the tribe of the Hebrews, not the Jews. Most of the Hebrews never became Jews, and never went to the Holy Land.

The Jews were the ones who recieved the Torah from G-d. All the Hebrews did not.

Huge difference. You don;t have a grasp on what you speak about.


Islam and Christianity will always try and convert and try and become powerful, but the Jewish people do not need to strive to be powerful. We will always be here on earth no matter who tries to destroy us, because of our covanent with G-d, that many religions try to destroy.

[Lamaggad]

Islam and Christianity will always try and convert and try and become powerful, but the Jewish people do not need to strive to be powerful. We will always be here on earth no matter who tries to destroy us, because of our covanent with G-d, that many religions try to destroy.

Dude... no body is trying to destroy you, just back away from the Muslims lands and stop killing our people...
you're religion is in our Qur'an, which mean YES Judaism EXIST...

israel's power is nothing but piece of weapons, Army and money... that's all what Jews care about to be powerful, israel doesn't need people to believe in them so they can be powerful, israel need weapons and wars so they can threaten people to accept their false existence in a Muslim country.

we are powerful bcz of what we believ in "Islam", you guys are powerful bcz of some high tech weapons, Bulldozers, and Money..

Islam well never fall, but any body can loose money, bulldozers can be destroyed like what Hezb Allah is doing, weapons same thing can be destroyed...

israel is nothing but a false state

[lavikor201]

In 1948, do you know the weapons the Jews had? The Israeli Army did not have much in '48, yet they defeated the whole Arab worlds attack on them.

[Zulkiflim]

Your very laughable. You don't have even a conception of what your talking about. You say we 'worship' the wall.

The Wall is a symbol that G-d is still with the Jews, and that G-d will never let the Arab world destroy the Jews.

Your to blind to see it.



Those were the tribe of the Hebrews, not the Jews. Most of the Hebrews never became Jews, and never went to the Holy Land.

The Jews were the ones who recieved the Torah from G-d. All the Hebrews did not.

Huge difference. You don;t have a grasp on what you speak about.


Islam and Christianity will always try and convert and try and become powerful, but the Jewish people do not need to strive to be powerful. We will always be here on earth no matter who tries to destroy us, because of our covanent with G-d, that many religions try to destroy.

Salaam,

Again tell me do you put word into your god mouth or is it what you desire?

You think the wall symblises continuity,...

you think that the wall is a symbol that god is with the jew.

In all that is "YOU THINK",,YOU THINK<YOU THINK

May i ask,what else do you think your your god should do to please you?

And if god suddenly tell you that you are wrong and punish you,would you still say that is your god?



And as for the worship of the golden calf,i think you need to understand the reson for the story..

Men of what ever race or what ever reliogn,,,such as yourself,require things to beleive in,,and when they cannot believe in the unseen they worship a calf,,a golden calf..

And in your case,becasue of your lack of faith you need to beleive that god is with you becasue of the wall..

You need to beleive in the wall to believe in god.
you need to beleive in the wall.to think that god is with you

[lavikor201]

Your unbelievably baby like rant that has no fact and no reason was pretty amusing.

First where did I say 'I think' once in the post you quoted.

Second, The Wall is one of the holiest sites in Judaism you obviously don't have the capacity to understand why, accept it, mock, I could not care less. Your opinion is meaningless to me because of your ignorance.

[جوري]

what does this have to do with the price of beans?

everything for someone with a thiamine deficiency :D

[Lamaggad]

come on you cant be serious. lots of muslims want to destroy Israel.:D

Majority of Muslims wants to kick those zionists out from the Muslim country specially bcz this state is racist and came with a hate ideology...

if they came in bcz the Holocaust broke the 3rd oath in their Torah...
well we Muslims are going to defend our land bcz that's whats written in our Qur'an.. as simple as that.

they are the one who attacked us, they are the one who destroyed Lebanon and Gaza, they are the baby and women killers.

[ManchesterFolk]

bcz this state is racist and came with a hate ideology

How are they rascist.

There are White, Middle Eastern, Black, and Asian Jews in Israel so how exactly are they judging people on race?

[جوري]

"Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considred as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet, and serve us as our slaves."

who said it?


Menachem Begin
(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)
that is how they are racists for starters....

[ManchesterFolk]

Now Click here to see that myth completly debunked for what it is... a false quote put into a mans mouth by Jew haters.

False Quotes made up to attack Jews

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=21



Save yourself the embarassment and just edit your post of that filthy lie.

I will edit mine then.

[جوري]

Hi newbie welcome to the forum... Thanks for posting your various drivel on the site.... we will take it into consideration and change the wrong of our ways...BTW , stop projecting, stop the name calling, ... try not to get emotionally involved with a post.... you want to crusade join the American army... exercise less cognitive conservatism and all will be well in the world by tomorrow

[ManchesterFolk]

Are you interested to find where the quote really originated from?

The Chinese Swastika Newsletter made this quote up.

Great source.

[جوري]

ok thanks for that.... I don't really care where it came from... I am not a Jew hater... to me they are people of the book... I, however, despise the colonial, settler, apartheid state of Israel... along with many others, Jews included by the way... why don't you relax... my opinion and yours won't challenge nor change the world... it will still be exactly the same tomorrow... maybe a few more dead on the Palestinian or Lebanese side... but don't worry yourself they are all small change for the mighty Israel.... we are digressing.... this is a comparative religion forum... you can take your grievances in world affairs forum... a place where I have lost all interest in posting, you can show the rest the wrong of their ways there....cheers

[Zulkiflim]

Your unbelievably baby like rant that has no fact and no reason was pretty amusing.

First where did I say 'I think' once in the post you quoted.

Second, The Wall is one of the holiest sites in Judaism you obviously don't have the capacity to understand why, accept it, mock, I could not care less. Your opinion is meaningless to me because of your ignorance.

Salaam ...

Again i say to you,,,and you dont want to admit it..

WHY IS THE WALL HOLY..
And you asnwered as did Lavikor...
It is a link to a glorious past twice destroyed..

A link to a glorious past..

And i guess you cant asnwer my quesiton if not you wont be doing "baby ranting" accusation.

Let me put it to you in point form.

1) Is the Tabernacle HOLY?
2) Did the tabernacle move about?
5) What made the Tabernacle Holy,was it the alnd it was erected at or the Covenant?
3) Did Jews claim that where ever the tabernacle was erected,that palce is holy?
4) Did the Jews then pray to stones and sand that once was the place of the taberancle?
5) Was the past 2 temple hOLY?
6) What made the temple holy?The land or the Covenant?
7) Were the wall of the Temple Holy?
8) Were the chairs in the temply Holy?
9) Were the plants in the temple holy?


So in all that i am sure you will come to the conclusion that what made the temple HOLY was not the site nor the land nor the buiding..

It is the Covenant,ie the Seat of Mercy.

And here you are worshipping and following a "tradition" of palcing paper into the wailing wall as a prayer.

I wodner when the temple was destroyed did the Jews protect the temple or the covenant?

I guess if you were around back then surely you would have protected the wall,instead of what GOD has deemed Holy,which is the arc of the covenant.

So like the past people who worshipped the golden calf,you now agfain becasue of lack of miracle worship a wall....for miracles.

And no Prophet teaches Idolatry and here you are worshipping a wall...

[ManchesterFolk]

In the Old Testament is says to build the Temple where God showed them. And that was the Temple mount. Therefore the only place Jews can complete the ritual laws prescribed to the Temple is on the Temple Mount.

You obviously cannot get that through your head.

[Lamaggad]

Salaam ...
WHY IS THE WALL HOLY..
And no Prophet teaches Idolatry and here you are worshipping a wall...

Zulkiflim, calm down man :):)... he think that the wall if Holy and he worship a wall.. that's his choice as this is his faith weather he can prove it or not...

that's not the biggest issue on earth as you know... our main problem is that Palestine is being ruled by racists who doesn't respect any kind of life in Gaza and west bank...

we want to end the check points, end occupation, end demolishing homes, end killing kids and women... That's what we have to prove to Jews since they don't see our point of view in their media.

we don't want to argue about a wall.

Lavikor have Muslims friends although he think Islam isn't right and completely false..
He is even keeping them in his house to avoid Hezb Allah's rockets ... which is a nice thing from him... and we should thank him for doing that instead of debating about a wall.

[Wild Bill]

I'm really wondering, how come Jews give them selves the right to go back to the holy land bcz of the Holocaust that broke the third oath...?!?!?
What about Muslims who doesn't believe in that oath?!? we shouldn't be forced to have them in our land bcz they believe that they are allowed or what ever?!?!

The 'our land' part is where you go wrong. Once you realize that the land does not belong to you, then the rest is easy to understand.

[Zulkiflim]

In the Old Testament is says to build the Temple where God showed them. And that was the Temple mount. Therefore the only place Jews can complete the ritual laws prescribed to the Temple is on the Temple Mount.

You obviously cannot get that through your head.

Salaam,

and actually you obviously did not read the previous post about that exact quesiton that i addresed to Lavikor which he cant asnwer.

But i agree that just becasue he cant answer dont mean there are now exact verses that say the temple is to be built THERE..

Hope you can go to earlier posting and read abut Duet that Lavikor gave to us.No where does it say to erect a temple ,when infact god has already told the wandering jews then to build the taberancle with the ARC of the COVENANT>

I do not know your reliogn for it seems you do not wish to disclose but i would ask you,if the Holy Grail Existed,is the stand it is placed on HOLY? wiht or wihout the Grail?

[Zulkiflim]

The 'our land' part is where you go wrong. Once you realize that the land does not belong to you, then the rest is easy to understand.

Salaam,

The land belongs to all people who have been living there in peace in worship of their respective god.

Muslim,Judaist and chrisitan have lived there in peace till the Isreali invasion.

So i would say,the land is made up of who people it,and the people are fighting back.

Inshallah,as the birth rate continues more and more muslim are converted and Inshallah,Israel will be a land for muslim by muslim and protected by muslim for all religon.
as it has always been.

[מדינת ישׂראל]

Muslim,Judaist and chrisitan have lived there in peace till the Isreali invasion.

Oh really?

And what religion is Judaist.

And your claim that we worship the wall is about as legitamite as a claim i cold make that all muslims worship that box in mecca.

[Lamaggad]

my point exactly. they want to destroy israel. im not interested in the specifics because i already know them. theres no need to act like the muslim world doesnt want to destroy israel. this is the main point

well israel have destroyed Palestine, destroyed our Mosques and turned them to bars to hurt Muslims feeling, they have divided Palestine in to the west bank and Gaza, Plus racist CHECK POINTS... how any one can live like that?!?!

our Capital City Jerusalem is occupied, they are digging under our Holy Mosque "Al-Aqssa".. it's almost falling down bcz they want to build Suleiman Bone... They don't have respect to Muslims who believe that this is Prophet Muhammad place where he used to pray and set with his companions.

That is why Majority hate israel, and Majority stands by Palestinians rights, Majority wants israel to disappear, Majority doesn't accept their false existence.

israel is a terrorist state... and terrorism MUST be destroyed

[wilberhum]

That is why Majority hate israel, and Majority stands by Palestinians rights, Majority wants israel to disappear, Majority doesn't accept their false existence.

Which Majority? The majority of Muslims? The Majority of the world?

[Lamaggad]

Which Majority? The majority of Muslims? The Majority of the world?

The majority of Arabs (Muslims and Christians) Majority of Muslims all around the world and that includes all nationalities.
maybe you can call that majority of the world.

[lavikor201]

Did you take a scientific poll or do you just randomly pull BS like that?

[north_malaysian]

I hope moderators would close this thread... it's not a forum...it's hatred .... from both sides.