The Trinity!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Jesus did not say that God is a trinity. Christianity is a religion of great diversity. Common human being with no spiritual knowledge came up with the concept of their own, which they called trinity. According to the theory, the trinity is composed of the Holy Spirit, The Father and the son.

The belief in trinity is to consider three to be one and one to be three, which is completely illogical. It is a belief that considers father not to be elder than his son, a son to be equal with his father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both. It is a belief to consider a virgin to be a mother of a son, and that very son of hers to be her maker.

Jesus himself made it clear that there is only one God and he is the Father. How can a Holy Spirit be considered different from the Father God. God is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is no other entity but God. So the Father (God) and the Holy Spirit are not two different entities but One, which completely fails the theory of trinity.

In summary the theory of trinity fails completely due to following reasons described in brief above:

1. One cannot be three and three cannot be one. Simple math.
2. Son cannot be equal to the father.
3. Jesus is not God.
4. The Holy Spirit not different from God but is God.

Sikhs believe that God is One and there is no one else like God. According to Sikhism, God is NOT a trinity

[afriend]

1. One cannot be three and three cannot be one. Simple math.
2. Son cannot be equal to the father.
3. Jesus is not God.
4. The Holy Spirit not different from God but is God.

It's really simple........There is not trinity. This is as baseless as the darwin theory, which Darwin himself despised in the end......

[AvarAllahNoor]

It's really simple........There is not trinity. This is as baseless as the darwin theory, which Darwin himself despised in the end......

Tell that to a Christian...

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam ,,

We know it but they do not want to admit it..

1+1+1= 1 ??

And they also say that each of the trinity is equal in knowledge and power to each other,but the bible itself,proves them false.

the bible say that ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE END TIMES.

Neither the son nor the spirit kows about it.

And the son has to ask for power to make miracles.
this has been debated on another thread but they still keep coming back for more

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[afriend]

3=1

I've tried soooo hard to use many mathematical theory to solve this......

[AvarAllahNoor]

3=1

I've tried soooo hard to use many mathematical theory to solve this......

I was having the same debate with these two christians that knocked on my door lastnight. Although they were more for Mary than Jesus! It gets confusing all these different groups these religions have! It was a nice debate though, and very amicable that's what matters!

[Fishman]

It's really simple........There is not trinity. This is as baseless as the darwin theory, which Darwin himself despised in the end......

:sl:
Darwin did not repent for his discovery at all, that's just a popular myth.
:w:

[snakelegs]

i have come to the conclusion that as non-christians, we will never understand this trinity stuff. it is just plain incomprehensible. there is no point in even asking about it.

[Woodrow]

i have come to the conclusion that as non-christians, we will never understand this trinity stuff. it is just plain incomprehensible. there is no point in even asking about it.

In discussing concepts of the trinity. Let us try to do it out love and with respect to our Christian members. Although we disagree with the concept, let us disagree with respect.

The number arguement does not work. 1+1+1=1 that arguement has been used so often that most Christians will accept that as a matter of faith and does not require proof or explanation.

The real burdan is for Christians to give verifiable evidence of the existance of the Trinity. Such as:

Where does the bible teach about the Trinity?

Who were the people that originaly taught the doctrine of the Trinity? What were their qualifications?

When was it first written that Isa(as) is God(swt)?

we can do ourselves justice and save a lot of work if we cease from trying to disprove the Trinity, but ask for proof that it does exist.

Snakelegs comment on the matter makes the most sense I have heard about the trinity.

[dougmusr]

Here's some verses from Isaiah which clearly show a trinity.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them,
They stand up together. 16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

In Isaiah 48:12, the speaker is the eternal "First and Last". In verse 13 He is the creator. In verse 16, He was sent by "the Lord God and His Spirit".

Can you prove that the Quran was revealed to Muhammed by Gabriel without using testimony from those who believe it to be true?

[nimrod]

Explain how 1+1+1+1=4 is wrong when discussing the topic:

Ezekiel 1
The Living Creatures and the Glory of the Lord
1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

2 On the fifth of the month—it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin- 3 the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians. There the hand of the LORD was upon him.

4 I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.

19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

22 Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome. 23 Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other, and each had two wings covering its body. 24 When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they stood still, they lowered their wings.

25 Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. 26 Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.





Give me an in-depth answer to the four four-faced creatures and why these four beings shouldn’t be seen as 4 singular examples of 4 parts equaling 1 distinct being, then you will have a soap box from which to preach from.

If you can’t offer a in-depth explanation of that, then how a person is to assume you have any in-depth answers as to God’s personal make up????????

If you can’t explain how the 1+1+1+1=1 doesn’t =1, then how are to explain how 1+1+1=1 doesn't =1?

Thanks
Nimrod

[Woodrow]

If you can’t explain how the 1+1+1+1=1 doesn’t =1, then how are to explain how 1+1+1=1 doesn't =1?

Only problem. It is an impossibility to prove a negative. It is not up to any one to prove something does not equal something. It is up to the person making the comment to prove it does equal what they state.

An extreme example:

disprove this:

1+27+6+84+17=1

Now prove that statement is wrong.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Here's some verses from Isaiah which clearly show a trinity.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them,
They stand up together. 16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

In Isaiah 48:12, the speaker is the eternal "First and Last". In verse 13 He is the creator. In verse 16, He was sent by "the Lord God and His Spirit".

Can you prove that the Quran was revealed to Muhammed by Gabriel without using testimony from those who believe it to be true?

Ok, this i understand, but then why does Jesus speak of God? Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? (it does as i've had bible study classes)

I'm not trying to ridicule your faith just trying to understand!

'That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit' This contradicts the Bible!

[dougmusr]

Ok, this i understand, but then why does Jesus speak of God? Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? (it does as i've had bible study classes)

I'm not trying to ridicule your faith just trying to understand!

'That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit' This contradicts the Bible!

I have to admit that the best I can do is offer conjecture and a few scriptures to back it up. If you meet anyone who claims to understand God, I'd beware.

Dt 4:15 "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure"

I know the earth was formless, I don't know if I would say God is formless, but I believe that the Bible teaches that humans would die instantly if they saw the glory of God the Father, so no one has seen it.

Jn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

So if God wants to deliver a message in person, He must appear in a form that man can endure. Check out this passage from Judges.

Jdg 13:15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD. ' (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar-- the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the LORD had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time."

I think the "Angel of the LORD" was non other than the eternal Christ.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So why does the Angel of the LORD say the sacrifice must be offered to the LORD if this was Christ? Just conjecture you understand, but man has a tendency to make images of God which become idols. I think this was Christ telling Manoah not to elevate His appearance in this encounter into an image.

Concerning Christ's references to God. I can't explain how deity and humanity were combined in Christ when He walked as a man. I can tell you that in order for Christ to become a sacrifice for sin, He had to be fully human. That is, in the Old Testament, a sacrifical lamb had to meet certain criteria, but especially it had to be 100% lamb, not a hybrid or cross.

[Phil12123]

Ok, this i understand, but then why does Jesus speak of God? Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? (it does as i've had bible study classes)

I'm not trying to ridicule your faith just trying to understand!

'That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit' This contradicts the Bible!

Why does Jesus speak of God? Why not? His reference to God is to His Father, not Himself.

Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? Yes, the Bible says God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Does that mean YOU have to be a spirit and not have a body? No.

It also says, God is invisible (Col. 1:15). But that same verse also says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Why? Because though we cannot see something invisible, we can see an image (=something that is seen) of the invisible. So Jesus said, "He that has SEEN ME has SEEN the Father" (John 14:9).

There is nothing contradictory about it. If the Father and Son are of the same essence, substance, or nature (Deity), and the Son takes on a body so He can die for our sins, the Son can refer to the Father as God and can be the image of the Father and there is no contradiction. Why are you having such a hard time with that?

Peace

[Muslim Knight]

Trinity hurts my head...

[AvarAllahNoor]

Why does Jesus speak of God? Why not? His reference to God is to His Father, not Himself.

Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? Yes, the Bible says God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Does that mean YOU have to be a spirit and not have a body? No.

It also says, God is invisible (Col. 1:15). But that same verse also says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Why? Because though we cannot see something invisible, we can see an image (=something that is seen) of the invisible. So Jesus said, "He that has SEEN ME has SEEN the Father" (John 14:9).

There is nothing contradictory about it. If the Father and Son are of the same essence, substance, or nature (Deity), and the Son takes on a body so He can die for our sins, the Son can refer to the Father as God and can be the image of the Father and there is no contradiction. Why are you having such a hard time with that?

Peace

I'm sorry but this isn't possible, The Bible is straight forward but Christians have disected it to get an interpretaion that contradicts what Jesus has preached. and what the main religions (apart from Hinduism as they believe in many Gods) God is formless and isn't born, so can't die which makes him imortal.

You claim God is a man! It's not possible!

[Tania]

Are three persons with one divine nature :)
"Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them. Everyone who glorifies the Father does so through the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him.99 "
Source

[AvarAllahNoor]

Are three persons with one divine nature :)
"Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them. Everyone who glorifies the Father does so through the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him.99 "
Source

What Scriptural evidence is there for the Trinity? is the word Trinity found in the Bible? :D

The Bible, Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 tells us 'the Lord our God, the Lord is One.'

That means there is only one who is God. He is unique: there's no-one and nothing else like him. And that's the problem! Because he's different from everyone and everything else, we can never look at something and say 'That's exactly what God is like!'

[Tania]

What Scriptural evidence is there for the Trinity? is the word Trinity found in the Bible? :D

The Bible, Deuteronomy chapter 6 verse 4 tells us 'the Lord our God, the Lord is One.'

That means there is only one who is God. He is unique: there's no-one and nothing else like him. And that's the problem! Because he's different from everyone and everything else, we can never look at something and say 'That's exactly what God is like!'

John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. "
explanation: Whom I will send: in ⇒ John 14:16, ⇒ 26 the Paraclete is to be sent by the Father, at the request of Jesus. Here the Spirit comes from both Jesus and the Father in mission; there is no reference here to the eternal procession of the Spirit.

The Trinity is found in Bible but the word was defined at one Council

[Phil12123]

Originally Posted by Phil12123
Why does Jesus speak of God? Why not? His reference to God is to His Father, not Himself.

Does the Bible not believe in a formless God? Yes, the Bible says God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Does that mean YOU have to be a spirit and not have a body? No.

It also says, God is invisible (Col. 1:15). But that same verse also says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Why? Because though we cannot see something invisible, we can see an image (=something that is seen) of the invisible. So Jesus said, "He that has SEEN ME has SEEN the Father" (John 14:9).

There is nothing contradictory about it. If the Father and Son are of the same essence, substance, or nature (Deity), and the Son takes on a body so He can die for our sins, the Son can refer to the Father as God and can be the image of the Father and there is no contradiction. Why are you having such a hard time with that?

I'm sorry but this isn't possible, The Bible is straight forward but Christians have disected it to get an interpretaion that contradicts what Jesus has preached. and what the main religions (apart from Hinduism as they believe in many Gods) God is formless and isn't born, so can't die which makes him imortal.

You claim God is a man! It's not possible!

Are you telling GOD what He can or cannot do? That would make YOU God, if He has to do what YOU think is okay or "possible."

What about it "contradicts what Jesus has preached"???

See, this is what I meant when you asked for verses and I said why do you want verses? will you hear them? will you believe them? You reject whatever is said because in your finite brain it's "not possible".

Peace

[dougmusr]

"When all other means have failed, only then is it righteous to take up the sword."

I'd love to know the implications of the quote you attach to your posts. What is the goal to which you aspire and the conditions under which you would use a sword?

[AvarAllahNoor]

I'd love to know the implications of the quote you attach to your posts. What is the goal to which you aspire and the conditions under which you would use a sword?

Don't worry it's not for a crusade...:p

It's a verse quoted by the Sikh Guru - If you're not sure about Sikhism you shouldn't be afraid to educate yourself. :brother:

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Kirpan

Hope this helps to give a better understanding!