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View Full Version : The Christians have left the Flock!



Dahir
08-10-2006, 06:17 PM
This question goes out to Christians, and the few who know a lot about Christianity:

There are two kinds of Christians in the World.

The Orthodox, fully Monotheistic Christians who live the Kosher lifestyle that many Muslims and Orthodox Jews also live.

Note on Prayer ritual: By that, I mean prostration, with the head lowered, in any form; I've seen Jews do this while reciting the Torah and Muslims as well reciting the Quran, and I've also seen Orthodox Christians as well as they recite the Old Testament, but never have I seen modern Christians in ritual (modern meaning Europeanized, like Protestants, Mormons, and Catholics).

And then you have your Modern Christians, who live a very non-Kosher lifestyle; in terms of diet, prayer ritual, and lifestyle.

I've heard the following statements (and I hope scholars can correct me) about Jesus (pbuh):

He Prostrated head to the ground.

He regarded dogs as a cursed animal.

He, along with prayer ritual and belief system, had a kosher diet.

And whenever asked, he would tell would-be followers that he is not the Lord.

I would post some verses from the Bible, but the sources come from Islamic websites and I wouldn't want to offend anyone by misquoting.


The question stands - why have Catholics, Protestants, and other Europeanized Christians fled their Kosher (halal) roots?
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snakelegs
08-10-2006, 06:51 PM
who are these monotheistic christians that keep kosher? i've never heard of them - what do they call themselves?
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Looking4Peace
08-10-2006, 06:55 PM
^^ my grandmother is one, usually Orthodox from middle east, eastern europe etc.
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snakelegs
08-10-2006, 07:01 PM
interesting. i have heard of a very tiny russian sect called molokan (?) that kept most of the kosher dietary laws... so yes, i think you're right - it's an eastern european thing. i had a russian molokan landlord once, who was born and raised in syria.
are there any large sects of christians that keep kosher? does the eastern orthodox church?
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Woodrow
08-10-2006, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
who are these monotheistic christians that keep kosher? i've never heard of them - what do they call themselves?
The largest organised Christian denomination I know of that follows kosher dietary laws are the Seventh Day Adventists, there probably are more.

An interesting trend does seem to be happening tho.

Here is an intersting article I found: I'm posting the article and not the site as I feel the site is anti Islamic. However, this is an interesting deveolpment that the curious may wish to look further into.This was from a Newspaper article, the newspaper is mentioned at the end of the article.

Holy cow! Christians Go Kosher
Author encourages believers to follow the dietary laws set forth in Old Testament


Shortly after Hope Egan was baptized five years ago, she confronted an unsettling contradiction. She could not reconcile a God that had opinions on marriage, money and idolatry but did not care about what she ate.

Authentic Christians should live by the laws of the Old Testament as well as the New, Egan believed, including the prohibitions on pork and shellfish.

Christians, she thought, should honor God by keeping kosher.

"Leviticus 11 plainly forbids us to eat pork, so why did most Bible-believing Christians eat it?" she recalls asking herself. "I couldn't get the Christian theology that explains why we're supposed to ignore it. I could not make sense of the mainstream theology that 95 percent of your average Christians either consciously or unconsciously are comfortable with."

Those culinary convictions have evolved into an unconventional ministry. Each month a half-dozen members of Egan's Lincoln Park church congregate in a kitchen to prepare dishes that incorporate the proper meats and fish, as well as whole-grain and organic ingredients with minimal processing and preservatives, "as close to God's original form as possible."

Now a magazine editor, Egan has also co-authored a book titled "Holy Cow!" in which she makes the case that, while Christians are not obligated to follow laws not found in the New Testament, such as separating milk and meat, they should fulfill their faith in the kitchen by keeping biblically kosher.

"God cares what you eat," said Egan, of Chicago. "He cares because he cares about you. He cares about the wonderful creation that he made for us to eat."

It was in Overeaters Anonymous where Egan first found a way to conquer what she now calls her idolatry of food. There she summoned the strength to make healthy dietary choices and for the first time in her life encountered God.

"For a long time that was sort of my focus, learning to submit my life to God, my food choices to God, to change the way I thought about food," Egan said.

As part of her spiritual quest, Egan, who had been a nonobservant Jew, delved into her Jewish roots with an Orthodox community that lived its faith each day from sunrise to sundown rather than talking about it at church. The experience left a lasting impression.

In 2000 she was baptized. Today she calls herself a Jewish believer in Jesus--a controversial concept among most Jews--and attends the evangelical Park Community Church.

When Egan lunched with a friend who also calls herself a Messianic Jew and follows a kosher diet, all of her quests converged. She had finally found the way by which faith could inform her food choices.

"Because of my history with food, I had an underlying yearning for where is God in my food," Egan said. "I was lacking information where I usually get it--through the church."

According to the Old Testament, which lays out God's covenant with the Jews, mammals to be eaten must have split hooves and chew their cud. Fish must have fins and scales. The rules on birds and insects are not as defined, although vultures and buzzards are prohibited, while grasshoppers, locusts and crickets are acceptable.

Christians believe that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. Most Christians who are aware of the Old Testament laws that Jesus preached and practiced believe they are guidelines instead of laws. They believe other laws were either revoked or voided by omission from the New Testament.

In Acts 10 of the New Testament, God commands Peter in a dream to partake of clean and unclean animals: "What God has cleansed, nolonger consider unholy."

Egan interprets Peter's vision as a metaphor for people, not food, and therefore views the dietary laws as still binding. In her view, they are not justified again in the New Testament because they are simply non-negotiable.

Her philosophy on following Old Testament rules has challenged members of Park Community Church to examine their diets from a biblical perspective.

"Meeting Hope, seeing where science and the Bible collide, was very compelling to me," said Amy Cataldo, a co-founder of the church's Creator's Cooking Club. "It was the science part that was compelling enough to look back on my Bible and reconsider."

A small number of Messianic Jews and evangelical Christians have embraced the Christian kosher movement in an effort to restore the practices of early Christianity, said Rev. Daniel Lancaster, a pastor with First Fruits of Zion, the Christian ministry that published Egan's book.

First Fruits of Zion also advocates that Christians observe the Sabbath on Saturday and celebrate Easter in the context of Passover. The New Testament records that Jesus came to Jerusalem for Judaism's spring holiday and that the Last Supper of Jesus and his disciples was a Passover seder.

"It's ironic to us that Easter is traditionally celebrated with ham and hot cross buns whereas the festival is supposed to be celebrated with unleavened bread and bitter herbs," said Lancaster, who also contributed to Egan's book.

On a recent Sunday, Rev. Jackson Crum, pastor at Park Community in Lincoln Park, brandished a copy of Egan's book and told the congregation that he was rethinking his own path.

"If I truly seek to be obedient, if I truly seek all that God desires to give me, am I willing to make choices that will bring a fullness and abundance in my life?" Crum explained later. "God is not the cosmic killjoy. Instead what he says is here is what it means to have a rich, full and abundant relationship with him."

For Egan, obeying the laws is a way to honor God. After all, the laws were created by God out of love for her.

"He's the one who designed my body and he's the one who designed all these ingredients that are really intelligent," she said. "It's just so obvious. He's the wisdom behind all those things."

By Manya A. Brachear
Chicago Tribune staff reporter
Published July 8, 2005
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Dahir
08-10-2006, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Crystal4Peace
^^ my grandmother is one, usually Orthodox from middle east, eastern europe etc.
My point exactly. Orthodox Christians and they're usually far Eastern in culture so they're closer rooted to the Old Testament.
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Dahir
08-10-2006, 07:47 PM
including the prohibitions on pork and shellfish.
Shellfish is Haram?

Shrimp, Lobster, Clams, Scallops are Haram?

I didn't know that.
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Looking4Peace
08-10-2006, 08:40 PM
I think they are haram to Jews, but never heard of it for Muslims, they can eat any fish other than scavenger types i think, and yes there are scavenger fish.
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Woodrow
08-10-2006, 08:48 PM
shellfish do cause a little confusion. Even among the Jews as to what is a shellfish, general opinion is that since shrimp lobster and other crustacians do have fins and scales, therefore they are not shell fish.. This question was raised here a few weeks back. The general concensus was that anything from the sea was halal, for Muslims. A few exceptions but more suggested to not be eaten although not haraam.
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snakelegs
08-10-2006, 11:27 PM
thanks for the article, woodrow. i'm pretty sure that seventh day adventists are vegetarian - i've bought some of their products - they're pretty good too.
i'm pretty sure that lobster and shrimp are not kosher. muslims don't separate meat and dairy, do they?
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Woodrow
08-10-2006, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks for the article, woodrow. i'm pretty sure that seventh day adventists are vegetarian - i've bought some of their products - they're pretty good too.
i'm pretty sure that lobster and shrimp are not kosher. muslims don't separate meat and dairy, do they?
I do not know of any Muslim restrictions on seperating meat and dairy. However, my son-in-laws family does. But, that is a cultural thing with them. They were taught that eating dairy and milk together will make you sick, not that it is haraam.

I only personaly know very few Jews. they eat shrimp and lobster. They tell me that shrimp and lobster are not shell fish as they have fins and scales. In my opinion calling the tail a fin and divisions in the shell scales is a bit stretching it. Yet, I can agree with them as I can not think of what else to call them.
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Looking4Peace
08-10-2006, 11:49 PM
^^ mad cow lol i swear i stopped eating that stuff years before i was even Muslim, i would buy either organic free range, kosher or halal meats just because i stopped trusting what the usda said after i started talking to people who investigate what goes on in factory slaughter houses and watched some live footage.
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Dahir
08-10-2006, 11:50 PM
This is panning out to be a very productive thread.

I've learned more than my bargain. Thanks a bunch!



:thumbs_up
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Looking4Peace
08-10-2006, 11:51 PM
But to get back to topic as a kid i would always wonder why my grandmother shopped at this kosher shop even though she was Christian later on i realized its because of her Orthodox upbringing over in Russia that she was very strict in her diet along with other things.
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Looking4Peace
08-10-2006, 11:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
is it the reason the orthodox priests dont shave?

i dont know exactly but they are a hairy bunch
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Dahir
08-10-2006, 11:59 PM
The Christian "flocking" is a bit deeper.

The diet is a bit bizarre by my stretch.

However, its also the ditching of many Old Testament habits that adds to this.

Lack of Prostration, lack of regard for the Old Testament in general.

The belief that God isn't a completely Monotheistic entity; but a "Trinity."

I wish the Christian posters were here to clear things up.

Any educated, Christian-source articles you have are a PLUS, so post them too!

Oh, and the Liberalization process that the Bible went through (reformation) that even the Torah went through; hence many Muslims disregard the two holy scriptures many a times.

The Liberalization also triggers the alcohol debate.

:peace:
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snakelegs
08-11-2006, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
what do they sell?
all kinds of canned foods (vegetarian only). there is something called "tasty bits" you fry them. there are a lot of seventh day adventists not far from where i live. they also have a big medical school and hospital. don't know anything about their religion tho.
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snakelegs
08-11-2006, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Crystal4Peace
^^^^ lol soydogs, those things are gross, ever try em lol?
yeah, they are yuk!
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Dahir
08-11-2006, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HusamLah
thats because oscar meyer has a way with b o l o n g n a....oh wait we're talking hot dogs
Here's what we call Thread Evolution:

Topics develop, and turn tides; from Christianity to Hot Dogs, oh what a world.

Anyhow, LIST SOME AUTHENTIC CHRISTIAN SOURCES!
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