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جوري
08-13-2006, 05:47 AM
I have been looking for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time for the water clock that marked the hours by dropping bronze balls into a bowl, as mechanical knights — one for each hour — emerged from little doors which shut behind them. The presents were unprecedented in Western Europe and may have influenced Carolingian art. which was given by Harun al-Rashid (Aaron the Upright ) to Charlemagne as a gift along with others.... I have looked and looked and looked and advertised every where... I have become sort of obsessed really I just need to know what it looks like... I bought many islamic art history books in search of the "clock" whereas I enjoy the girth of my library... It doesn't have the item I want to see the most :cry: :cry: :cry:
so please any of you out there well learned in art history or history in general and have an idea to which museum this belongs... or have some sort of diagram or mock drawing I'd be much obliged
:w:
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afriend
08-13-2006, 05:55 AM
lol whoops...looks like u posted twice...If I were mod i'd fix that by now....on ur request:

clockwater 1 -
Do you mean something like this?
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afriend
08-13-2006, 02:05 PM
Come on people....You're all much better at me at finding thngs, let's help out here....
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جوري
08-13-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Iqram
lol whoops...looks like u posted twice...If I were mod i'd fix that by now....on ur request:

clockwater 1 -
Do you mean something like this?
Mashallah how amazing.... I have never seen it... I wanted to know how the knights come out for each hour? just seems like the most sophisitcated thing for 800 something AD...
thanks so much for trying to help me out though =):sister: :sl:
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
08-13-2006, 05:42 PM
ooo datz funky.. i want 1 :D:D

where can i find 1?
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جوري
08-13-2006, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
ooo datz funky.. i want 1 :D:D

where can i find 1?
I'd hate to think this... I bet it was in the Baghdad museum and the Americans came and destroyed or stole it as they demolish everything in there way..... it would be a shame :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
08-13-2006, 05:51 PM
they better not have :rant:
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Ameeratul Layl
08-15-2006, 02:10 PM
Salam,

PurestAmbrosia, why not try and make one. I would. It'd be fun.
Do some research on the net about a 'water clock' and then, try and make one of your own.

It'd be fun and guess what...you'd have your very own water clock. How amazing!

I will help you if you want. But, first, tell me, do you wish to make one yourself?

Wasalam
p.s: It'd be fun!
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
08-18-2006, 10:40 PM
lol, itl b easier juz 2 buy it :giggling:
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جوري
08-18-2006, 11:20 PM
How can i duplicate or buy a piece of history?... I just don't know why there is no photographic record of this clock... =( it is upsetting really... I can't imagine how it would look like to even make a mock diagram? are there any good artists on board who can duplicate it?
thank you
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Kittygyal
08-18-2006, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
How can i duplicate or buy a piece of history?... I just don't know why there is no photographic record of this clock... =( it is upsetting really... I can't imagine how it would look like to even make a mock diagram? are there any good artists on board who can duplicate it?
thank you

salam.
sis i would have drawn it for you as i am an artist but i can't as i am ill :(
sowiee sis. :(:cry:
w.salam
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DaNgErOuS MiNdS
08-18-2006, 11:39 PM
Are there like loads of diffrent water clocks but the one you are on about unique?

Im intrested in seeing it aswell, whats the closest you've got to seeing it?
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azim
08-18-2006, 11:44 PM
Asalamu alaykum.

If you could give us some more info on it, perhaps we can help.

I suggest however going to see an expert in the field.
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جوري
08-18-2006, 11:49 PM
bros Iqram's painting was as close as I got lol... I have seen a chinese one... but legend has it... I am just saying legend has it because it is a good story starter lol... no this is the truth... charlgemane and his court were so taken aback by the clock they thought it was sorcery or witchcraft from how sophisticated it was... I can't visualize nights on horses coming in for each hour and bronze balls... but I have been obsessed with it for ever.... I like art history in general... can get into details of worthless info of carrvagio and corregio... jupiter and Io... it is all nonsensical but it is a hobby I enjoy and when it is Islamic art or science it fascinates me all the more...whenever I give a presentation I always conclude with something a Muslim scholar did... would really love to include harun alrashid but without the example it will all be just hot air =((
anyhow thank you all for your time and sis kittygyal I hope you feel better inshallah
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Kittygyal
08-18-2006, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
bros Iqram's painting was as close as I got lol... I have seen a chinese one... but legend has it... I am just saying legend has it because it is a good story starter lol... no this is the truth... charlgemane and his court were so taken aback by the clock they thought it was sorcery or witchcraft from how sophisticated it was... I can't visualize nights on horses coming in for each hour and bronze balls... but I have been obsessed with it for ever.... I like art history in general... can get into details of worthless info of carrvagio and corregio... jupiter and Io... it is all nonsensical but it is a hobby I enjoy and when it is Islamic art or science it fascinates me all the more...whenever I give a presentation I always conclude with something a Muslim scholar did... would really love to include harun alrashid but without the example it will all be just hot air =((
anyhow thank you all for your time and sis kittygyal I hope you feel better inshallah

salam.
sis inshallah by the will of Allah, just pray for me :cry: also sis i would have drawn it for you but you know my medical conditon i am in :( aso sis have you checked on Google?
w.salam
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جوري
08-19-2006, 12:28 AM
I pray you recover soon inshallah... yup checked on every search engine... lots written of it... but no models
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afriend
08-19-2006, 12:46 AM
Make a water clock

This tells u hwo to make one....If u make one, plz send us a picture :)
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جوري
08-19-2006, 12:49 AM
Thank you....this is wonderful......
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afriend
08-19-2006, 12:51 AM
Also...If you need a PDF version...

PDF water clock
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 03:18 AM
Source for this story:

http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerb...dle-xxxix.html

XXXIX. Charlemagne, Emperor.

After the wars in Saxony, in Lombardy, and in Spain were ended, Charlemagne went over into what is now called Austria, to fight the A´vars, from whom he also won much territory and spoil. Then, as he had become master of nearly all the land that had once formed the Western Empire, it was thought only right that he, too, should bear the title of Emperor.

When he went to Rome, therefore, in 800, he received his name of Charles the Great, and on Christmas Day appeared in church clad in imperial purple. While he was kneeling before the altar, the Pope took the imperial crown, and placing it upon Charlemagne’s head, hailed him sixty-eighth Emperor of Rome.

Thus the Western Roman Empire, which had died out 324 years before (in 476), sprang to life again under Charlemagne; but from this time on it is generally known as the Holy Roman Empire. During that visit, Charlemagne also confirmed the grant of land that had been made to the Church by his father.

The last years of Charlemagne’s reign were far more peaceful than the first; still, he foresaw that there would be trouble as soon as he died. According to one story, while he was gazing out at sea, he once suddenly beheld some ships of the Northmen - bold pirates who, sailing along the European coasts of the Atlantic Ocean, often landed, stole all they could lay hands upon, and then sailed away leaving nothing but ruins behind them. Tears coursed down his aged cheeks, and when his followers asked the cause of his grief, he sadly answered, “Do you know, my faithful liegemen, why I weep? I do not fear that these men can hurt us, but it affronts me to think that while I live they have dared to insult my coasts, and I foresee with grief what evil they will do to my descendants and to their subjects!” You will soon see that Charlemagne had good cause to weep over the misfortunes which were to come, and that his descendants did suffer greatly at the hands of these Northmen.

Charlemagne was married five or six times. He had fourteen children whom he loved dearly, but some of them died before he did. While his sons were often called away to fight or attend to business, his daughters generally accompanied him wherever he went. It was even said that he was too fond of them to allow them to marry, for he feared their husbands might want to live away from court, and thus separate him from them. If you would like to know the story of the courtship and marriage of one of these daughters, you can read it in Longfellow’s charming poem, “Emma and Eginhard” (ay´gin-hart), in the Tales of a Wayside Inn, where you will also find other interesting things about this great monarch.

Charlemagne was so great, so rich, so brave, and so powerful, that his fame spread far beyond Europe, even into Asia. The Caliph of Bagh´dad, as a token of respect, sent him ambassadors bringing wonderful presents. Many of these eastern gifts were great curiosities to the French and Germans of that day, who make particular mention of a monkey, an elephant, an organ, and a mechanical clock; but all agree that most precious of all the gifts were the keys of the Holy Sep´ul-cher at Jerusalem. This gift was so precious because the Holy Sepulcher was the tomb of Jesus our Lord, which had a lovely church built all around it, but which had fallen into the hands of the Saracens.

Charlemagne was tall and strong, had blue eyes, curly hair and beard, and handsome features. While he could occasionally dazzle people by the splendor of his imperial robes, he generally dressed like a soldier, carrying his great sword, named Joyeuse (zhoy-yuse´), which was so very heavy that few warriors could handle it at all.

Charlemagne never believed in doctoring. When he fell ill of fever, he refused to eat, and died at the end of a week, in January, 814, at the age of seventy-two, having made all his last arrangements with great care and calmness.

At his request, he was buried in the vault of the cathedral of Aix-la-Chapelle. His body was embalmed, clad in imperial purple, seated on a throne, and placed in a tomb all paved with gold coins. With a crown on his head, scepter in his hand, sword by his side, and an open Bible on his knees, the great Emperor sat in state, and the vault was closed. Charlemagne had prescribed all this in his will, and had besides given strict orders that his tomb should never be opened, under penalty of his curse. But one of the German emperors, wishing to secure the regalia (crown, scepter, and other royal or imperial ornaments), had the tomb opened in 997. The body of Charlemagne was then found just as it had been left. The ornaments and gold were removed, the corpse laid in a tomb, and the throne brought up into the gallery of the cathedral, where it can still be seen. But, strange to relate, the emperor who braved Charlemagne’s curse was never lucky again. As for the regalia, it was taken in time to Vi-en´na, where it is still exhibited in the imperial treasury.

The hero of countless interesting French and German legends, Charlemagne, the most picturesque and powerful monarch in Europe for several centuries, was greatly regretted when he died. We are told that a monk of his time wrote: “No one can tell the mourning and sorrow that his death caused everywhere; even pagans wept for him as for the father of the world!”

View a larger picture of the cover


View a two-page spread
(in pdf format)




Browse the table of contents


Read the preface


Read chapter LXXXVII:
Richard and the Saracens


Read chapter CXXXVII:
Joan to the Rescue


Order The Story
of the Middle Ages


Return to The Story
of the Middle Ages

Apparantly all that is known about the clock was handed down by word of mouth. If it still exists it seems it may be in the Museum in Vienna
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 03:48 AM
Reading this description of the clock it sounds very much like the famous "Apostles" Clock in the Square by the Mozart Museum. I'll check it out.

Of the respect entertained for him by foreign nations an interesting
proof is afforded in the embassy sent to him by the Caliph of the
Arabians, the celebrated Haroun al Raschid, a prince in character
and conduct not unlike to Charlemagne. The ambassadors brought with
them, besides other rich presents, a clock, the first that was seen in
Europe, which excited universal admiration. It had the form of a
twelve-sided edifice with twelve doors. These doors formed niches,
in each of which was a little statue representing one of the hours. At
the striking of the hour the doors, one for each stroke, were seen
to open, and from the doors to issue as many of the little statues,
which, following one another, marched gravely round the tower. The
motion of the clock was caused by water, and the striking was effected
by balls of brass equal to the number of the hours, which fell upon
a cymbal of the same metal, the number falling being determined by the
discharge of the water, which, as it sunk in the vessel, allowed their
escape.
it sounds very much like the famous "Apostles" Clock in the Square by the Mozart Museum. I'll check it out.
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جوري
08-19-2006, 03:50 AM
Thank you....
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 04:05 AM
The clock shown in this link is the clock in the Bell tower in Prague. I would suspect the lower mechanism with 12 figures is patterned after Charlemagnes clock.

I doubt very much that the original clock still exists but it seems the clock may have influenced clock makers in the Vienna Prague area and I'll bet at least a few will operate like Charlemagnes did.

http://www.pbase.com/mambocha/image/23442766
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 04:45 AM
This link will take you to a page about Al-Jazari the 6th century Arabic Engineer who invented the principles for the pumps and floats that operated those neat water powered mechanical clocks. Some neat diagrams of some he built and how they worked.

Combine this page with the lower portion of the Prague clock and you will have a good idea as to what Charlemagnes clock looked like and how it operated.

Thanks for starting this thread. Now I discovered Al-Jazari he surpasses Da Vinci. Talk about a genius being ahead of his time. Truly fantastic Mashallah

OOOOps almost for got the link:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics...?ArticleID=188
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جوري
08-19-2006, 04:58 AM
Thank you for all that work you have done.... I always got the same four websites and people I requested help from gave up the search as it proved futile... the upside is I got many amazing books about Islamic art, and inventions, and now I got to learn so much from all of you
[MOUSE]bro woodrow a special thank you[/MOUSE]
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 05:03 AM
Jazakallahu Khairan, it is you who deserves the thanks. Because of your question I learned much about Al-Jazari and that means I gained much more then you did. I am pleased to knopw that you at least gained a littlr progress in your quest.
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جوري
08-19-2006, 05:21 AM
please don't be so modest.... I was hurt once to know that at some point knowledge will die with people of knowledge and wanted to learn all I can about Islam... even though I was born Muslim... I'd say I have become especially interested in the religion from all facets around 6 years ago...So strange that one day you recite the quran in class because it is your homework and one day just by chance you realize this is from God.... I think bros and sisters who convert/revert are much better than some of Us who are born Muslim... somehow I have taken it all for granted.... Anyhow Thank you again... and hope we continue to learn lots from each other... inshallah ... I wish I knew how to add smilies in the quick reply? or when giving feedback? lol
=)
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sameena
08-19-2006, 09:48 AM
its intersting
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Kittygyal
08-19-2006, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I pray you recover soon inshallah... yup checked on every search engine... lots written of it... but no models
salam.
inshallah sis, but you have got alot of information so far it's very intresting.
w.salam
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