What is the proof of the Coming of the Mahdi and the Decension of Isa?

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Okay the following is the reason why i don't believe in Prophet Isa's being alive currently only to appear at some time..Also may i add this was not the belief of the early muslims..in Imam Malik's Muwatta there is no reference of Prophet Isa's return nor is there ANY hadeeth abou the Imam Mahdi.

This begs the Question..If such a belief was so important in Islam..then why didnt Imam Malik include it? He was born 100 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed and even his grandfather lived during Prophet Muhammed's time..also Imam Malik was based in the city of Madina. the city that inherited the sunnah of Prophet Muhammed in its purest form.

Also there is no hadeeth about Imam Mahdi in Bukhari or Muslim. There are hadeeths about Imam Mahdi in the other sunni hadeeth books...and the only ones to have brought this belief into the sunni fold are the Shias. Please read this article about the Shiite Imam Mahdi.
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Verse 158 of Chapter 4:.
بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزاً حَكِيما


Translation by M. Asad: Nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise.

Commentary Number 172 by M. Asad to the above verse reads:
Cf. 3:55, where God says to Jesus, "Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee to Me." The verb rafa'ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always, whenever the act of raf' ("elevating") of human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake, as it is evident from 19:57, where the verb rafa'nahu ("We exalted him") is used with regard to the Prophet Idris,


وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ إِدْرِيسَ إِنَّهُ كَانَ صِدِّيقاً نَّبِيّاً
19.56 . And make mention in the Scripture of Idris . Lo! he was a saint , a Prophet ;

وَرَفَعْنَاهُ مَكَاناً عَلِيّاً

19.57 . And We raised him to a lofty station

(See also Muhammad Abduh in Manar III, 316 f., and VI, 20f.) The "nay" (bal) at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between belief of the Jesus that they had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having "exalted him unto Himself."



قَالَ اللَّهُ يَاعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُو
Translation by Yusuf Ali:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myselfand clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme;

Translation by M. Asad:
Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth;



Verse 253 of Chapter 2:

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْض ٍ مِنْهُمْ مَنْ كَلَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَات

Translation by Yusuf Ali:
Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor)...

Translation by M. Asad:
Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others, among them were such as were spoken to by God [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher


Also read this
Islamic View of the Coming/Return of Jesus
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat

[LINK REMOVED]




:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Not true. He will come down as establised by the Quran and the Hadith and the opinions of the Ulema.

THE FIRST REFERENCE: is in Surah Nisaa’, verses (156-159). As for the context of these verses, Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed Jesus son of Mary - the Messenger of Allah. Thereupon Allah, the Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says, "And because of their saying (boasting), ‘We killed Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so." [an-Nisaa’ 4:157]

"But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise." [an-Nisaa’ 4:158]

So, if anyone claims that only the soul was raised, it would be incorrect, as is shown from the two following perspectives.


FIRSTLY, Allah made a mention of this raise in the context of refutation of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ. So, if it were that only the soul was raised, then that would actually mean an acknowledgment of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ - which is to remove his soul!


SECONDLY, if it were true that only his soul was raised, there would remain no distinction for Jesus above the rest. For all Prophets (peace be upon them), and in fact all believing Muslims, have their souls raised to the sky upon their death. So, does there remain anything that distinguishes Jesus, for which Allah makes a special marked mention in the Quran that He raised him?

After establishing this point, another Quranic verse follows in the same context of the ones that preceded. This one clearly bears evidence on another return of the Christ (peace be upon him) to the earth and that he will descend from the sky. The purpose of this is the crucial role he will play upon his return to the earth. Allah, the Exalted, says, "And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them." [an-Nisaa’ 4:159]

The verse presents the message in a future tense, so it is with regards to the events to come after the raising of the Christ. It informs that some of the People of the Book will believe in the Christ. But when will that be? It will be upon his descent, his return and coming onto the earth once again. Imam Tabari, the renowned scholar of the Quranic exegesis (may Allah cover him in mercy), explained this. He said, “The meaning of the verse ‘And there is none of the people of the Scripture but must believe in him’, that is: in Jesus, ‘before his death’, that is: before the death of Jesus. It is explained as follows: that all of them will affirm and acknowledge him when he descends to kill the Antichrist, thereafter, all the religion will give way to only the one, which is the pure upright religion of Islam - the religion of Abraham (may the peace be him)." [See Tafsir at-Tabari 4:356-357].


THE SECOND REFERENCE in the Noble Quran to the imperative nature of the descent of Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, in order to complete the task that must be done on the earth, is found in Surah Zukhruf in the Quran. Allah, the Exalted, says in it, "And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example (i.e. Jesus worshipped like their idols), behold, your people cry aloud (laugh out at the example). And say: Are our gods better or is he (i.e. Jesus)? They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people. He (i.e. Jesus) was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel (i.e. his creation without a father). And if it were Our Will, We would have (destroyed you all, and) made angels to replace you on the earth. And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path." [az-Zukhruf 43:57-61].

In another recitation, it is recited as "And he shall be a mark". It means, a symbol, a portent, a sign of the Hour. [See Fathu-l Qadeer of Shawkaani, (4/562) for references of those who read it so.]

How can Jesus son Mary, be a sign of the Hour (Doomsday)? It cannot be except with his descent being in the last stage and period. His descent would then be a great sign and one of the major portents of the Hour - a sign that announces the closeness of its occurrence. This is how the verse has commonly been explained by the scholars of Tafsir (exegesis of the Quran). Amongst them are Mujahid, Suddee, Qatada, Hasan al-Basri, Dahhaak and Ibn Zayd. It is also the saying of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him). They all have stated this explicitly, that Jesus son of Mary is one of the signs of the Hour in the sense that he will descend and rule the earth and dwell therein for forty years, as is mentioned in the authentic hadith, that will be mentioned shortly. And his descent will be one of the great signs of Allah and one of the supreme portents of the Hour.


THE THIRD REFERENCE TO IT IN THE QURAN The deduction from this text is indeed remarkable. One notes that there is hardly ever a mention of the story of Jesus (in the Quran) except that it is mentioned along with it that, "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood" [Aal `Imraan 3: 46, and al-Maa’ida 5:110]. In this, Allah mentioned two remarkable and rare events, that are also two dazzling signs (proofs) of Allah found in the character of Jesus Christ.


THE FIRST MATTER is that he spoke in the cradle while still an infant. This does not occur except as a miracle from Allah, the Mighty, and the Magnificent. That is why it has never occurred except with three people as has been established in the authentic hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him). [See Saheeh Bukhari (4/201-202)]. So the speaking of Jesus (peace be on him) in the cradle was indeed a sign, and there was a need, and the circumstance called for it as the mother of Jesus came to be held in suspicion due to the birth, `how can a woman give birth without a husband?' They even voiced this explicitly, as reported in the Quran, "Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." [Maryam 19:28]

So, a miracle was required to prove her innocence and to prove that the birth was another such a miracle. Thus the infant spoke in the cradle, an extraordinary, unaccustomed event. But the verse couples this miraculous event, with the mention of another event - of him speaking as a middle-aged adult. But every one speaks at that age. So where is the miracle in that? The Arabic word used in the verse that refers to that stage of his life, is Kuhoola, which is used for a person past the age of forty and up to the age of fifty or sixty years. Is it at all remarkable that one speaks at the age of sixty or even seventy?! So where is the miracle that is alluded to in this section of the verse which mentions that Jesus speaks as a middle aged man?
This shows that just as his speech in the cradle as an infant was a miracle, likewise he will descend and speak to the people as a middle aged man in the last stages of this world, making his descent and speech thereupon, also a miracle. Otherwise, there is no miracle in a sixty or seventy year old communicating by speech!


So the evidence from this section of the verse in the Quran that he will speak to the people as a middle-aged adult is from the following two perspectives.


FIRSTLY, some of the scholars of Islam, amongst them is ibn Musayyab, stated that Jesus son of Mary, was raised to the sky while he was at an age of thirty three years, in the prime of his youth (referred to in Arabic as Shabaab, which is a stage prior to the one mentioned in the Quran, Kuhoola). So he had not yet reached the stage of Kuhoola.


SECONDLY, here comes the aspect of amazement, marvel and the miracle. The aspect, which bears evidence on the point, is that he speaks to the people as a middle-aged man (in Kuhoola) after having been raised, and his being raised is indeed an astonishing event. And he will descend, and his descent is also another astonishing, remarkable event. He will then speak to the people and will live after his descent for forty years. This forty added to the thirty years makes him someone who would have reached the age of Kuhoola, and having spoken at that age. He will then have spoken to the people as he spoke to them in the cradle. This is a clear and unambiguous indication that he (peace be upon him) will certainly complete his role and his part, and will descend towards the last stages and speak to the people as a middle-aged man, just as he spoke miraculously as an infant. Imam Tabari related from Abdurahman ibn Zayd that he said, ‘Jesus did indeed speak to them in the cradle, and he will speak to them when he kills the Antichrist, he will then be a kahl (middle-aged person)." [Tafsir Tabari 3/271]



http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=610

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Now that it is established from the Quran, lets turn to the Hadiths:

Abd Allah ibn 'Amr said, "The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said,
'The Dajjal will appear in my Ummah, and will remain for forty - "I cannot
say whether he meant forty days, forty months or forty years." Then Allah
will send Jesus (alayhe salam), the son of Mary, who will resemble 'Urwah
ibn Mas'ud. He will chase the Dajjal and kill him. Then the people will
live for seven years during which there will be no enmity between any two
persons. Then Allah will send a cold wind from the direction of Syria,
which will take the soul of everyone who has the slightest speck of good
or faith in his heart. Even if one of you were to enter the heart of a
mountain, the wind would reach him there and take his soul.

"Only the most wicked people will be left; they will be as careless as
birds, with the characteristics of beasts, and will have no concern for
right and wrong. Satan will come to them in the form of man and will say,
"Don't you respond?" They will say, "What do you order us to do?" He will
order them to worship idols, and in spite of that they will have
sustenance in abundance, and lead comfortable lives.

"Then the Trumpet will be blown, and everyone will tilt their heads to
hear it. The first one to hear it will be a man busy repairing a trough
for his camels. He and everyone else will be struck down. Then Allah will
send (or send down) rain like dew, and the bodies of the people (ie the
dead) will grow out of it. Then the trumpet will be sounded again, and the
people will get up and look around. Then it will be said, "O people, go to
your Lord and account for yourselves." It will be said, "Bring out the
people of Hell," and it will be asked, "How many are there?" - the answer
will come: "Nine hundred and ninety-nine out of every thousand." On that
day a child will grow old and the shin will be laid bare." (Al-Qalam
68:42) (Muslim)

Abu Hurairah said, "The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said, 'The
son of Mary will come down as a just leader. He will break the cross, and
kill the pigs. Peace will prevail and people will use their swords as
sickles. Every harmful beast will be made harmless; the sky will send down
rain in abundance, and the earth will bring forth its blessings. A child
will play with a fox and not come to any harm; a wolf will graze with
sheep and a lion with cattle, without harming them." (Ahmad)

Abu Hurairah said, "The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said, 'By
Him in Whose hand is my soul, surely the son of Mary will come down among
you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pigs and abolish
the Jizyah. Wealth will be in such abundance that no-one will care about
it, and a single prostration in prayer will be better than the world and
all that is in it." Abu Hurairah said, 'If you wish, recite the Ayah:

"And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him
before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against
them ..." (Al-Nisa 4:159) (Bukhari, Muslim)


Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said,
"The Prophets are like brothers; they have different mothers but their
religion is one. Iam the closest of all the people to Jesus son of Mary,
because there is no other Prophet between him and myself. He will come
again, and when you see him, you will recognise him. He is of medium
height and his colouring is reddish-white. He will be wearing two
garments, and his hair will look wet. He will break the cross, kill the
pigs, abolish the Jizyah and call the people to Islam. During his time,
Allah will end every religion and sect other than Islam, and will destroy
the Dajjal. Then peace and security will prevail on earth, so that lions
will graze with camels, tigers with cattle, and wolves with sheep;
children will be able to play with snakes without coming to any harm.
Jesus will remain for forty years, then die, and the Muslims will pray for
him." (Ahmad)

Ibn Masud reported that the Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said,
"On the night of the Isra (night journey), I met my father Abraham, Moses
and Jesus, and they discussed the Hour. The matter was referred first to
Abraham, then to Moses, and both said, 'I have no knowledge of it. Then it
was referred to Jesus, who said, 'No-one knows about its timing except
Allah; what my Lord told me was that the Dajjal will appear, and when he
sees me he will begin to melt like lead. Allah will destroy him when he
sees me. The Muslims will fight against the Kafirs, and even the trees and
rocks will say, "O Muslim, there is a Kafir hiding beneath me - come and
kill him!" Allah will destroy the Kafirs, and the people will return to
their own lands. Then Gog and Magog will appear from all directions,
eating and drinking everything they find. The people will complain to me,
so I will pray to Allah and He will destroy them, so that the earth will
be filled with their stench. Allah will send rain which will wash their
bodies into the sea. My Lord has told me that when that happens, the Hour
will be very close, like a pregnant woman whose time is due, but her
family do not know exactly when she will deliver'" (Ahma, Ibn Majah)

DESCRIPTION OF THE MESSIAH JESUS SON OF MARY, MESSENGER OF ALLAH

Abu Hurairah said, "The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said, 'On
the night of the Isra' (miraculous journey to Jerusalem) I met Moses - he
was a slim man with wavy hair, and looked like a man from the Shanu'ah
tribe. I also met Jesus - he was of medium height and of a red complexion,
as if he had just come out of the bath'" (Bukhari, Muslim)

The Prophet (sallallahu alayhe wa sallam) said, "Whilst I was asleep, I
saw myself (in a dream) making Tawaf around the Ka'bah. I saw a
brown-skinned man, with straight hair, being supported by two men, and
with water dripping from his head. I said, 'Who is this?' They said, 'The
son of Mary'I turned around and saw a fat, ruddy man, with curly hair, who
was blind in his right eye; his eye looked like a floating grape. I asked,
'Who is this?' They said, 'The Dajjal' The one who most resembles him is
Ibn Qatan." Al-Zuhri explained: Ibn Qatan was a man from Khuzaah who died
during the Jahiliyyah (before the coming of Islam). (Bukhari)


I think that the proofs are too many to reject sister. This was the belief of the Prophet (SAW) himself. There is no reason to reject it because some "scholors" today reject it.

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

As for the Mahdi, the proofs themselves are too many to be rejected:

Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4271

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah. Abdullah ibn Ja'far said: I heard AbulMalih praising Ali ibn Nufayl and describing his good qualities

Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4272

Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The Mahdi will be of my stock, and will have a broad forehead a prominent nose. He will fill the earth will equity and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny, and he will rule for seven years.




Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4269

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If only one day of this world remained. Allah would lengthen that day (according to the version of Za'idah), till He raised up in it a man who belongs to me or to my family whose father's name is the same as my father's, who will fill the earth with equity and justice as it has been filled with oppression and tyranny (according to the version of Fitr). Sufyan's version says: The world will not pass away before the Arabs are ruled by a man of my family whose name will be the same as mine.




Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4270

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If only one day of this time (world) remained, Allah would raise up a man from my family who would fill this earth with justice as it has been filled with oppression.




Dawud :: Book 36 : Hadith 4273

Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Disagreement will occur at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca. Some of the people of Mecca will come to him, bring him out against his will and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. An expeditionary force will then be sent against him from Syria but will be swallowed up in the desert between Mecca and Medina. When the people see that, the eminent saints of Syria and the best people of Iraq will come to him and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam.
Then there will arise a man of Quraysh whose maternal uncles belong to Kalb and send against them an expeditionary force which will be overcome by them, and that is the expedition of Kalb. Disappointed will be the one who does not receive the booty of Kalb. He will divide the property, and will govern the people by the Sunnah of their Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and establish Islam on Earth. He will remain seven years, then die, and the Muslims will pray over him.




'The Mahdi is one of us, from among the people of my household. In one night Allah will inspire him and prepare him to carry out his task successfully.' (Ahmad)


Thawbaan narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'Three men will be killed at the place where your treasure is. Each of them will be the son of a Khalifah and none of them will get hold of the treasure. Then the black banners will come out of the east, and they will slaughter you in a way which has never been seen before.' Then he said something which I do not remember, 'then if you see him, go and give him your allegiance, even if you have to crawl over ice because he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.' (Ibn Majah)


Again the proofs are too many to be questioned.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

Okay the following is the reason why i don't believe in Prophet Isa's being alive currently only to appear at some time..Also may i add this was not the belief of the early muslims..in Imam Malik's Muwatta there is no reference of Prophet Isa's return nor is there ANY hadeeth abou the Imam Mahdi.

Where did Imâm Mâlik say that he was collecting all the Ahâdîth pertaining to Islamic beliefs? He didn't. The Muwatta of Imâm Mâlik is only a small Musannaf collection.

And you're wrong about it not being part of the beliefs of early Muslims. This belief was unanimously transmitted by the early Muslims. I can quote hundreds of early scholars on the authenticity of the belief in the Mahdi. Many scholars wrote entire books on the Mahdi or included special sections on the Mahdi. Abdur-Razza As-San'ani (d. 211H) wrote an entire book on the the Mahdi.

Also there is no hadeeth about Imam Mahdi in Bukhari or Muslim. There are hadeeths about Imam Mahdi in the other sunni hadeeth books

The return of Prophet 'Îsa is mentioned in Sahîh Bukhârî, yet you still don't accept it. Thus, this argument can be discarded as a red-herring.

Secondly, the hadiths of the Mahdi do occur in Bukhari and Muslim, though the specific word 'mahdi' is only mentioned in other versions. Bukhari and Muslim both record the narration of Isa descending and being led in prayer by the Mahdi, as well as the armies arising from Khurasan.

There are over THIRTY distinct authentic hadith on Imam Mehdi and the scholars of hadith have declared belief in him to be Mutawâtir.

and the only ones to have brought this belief into the sunni fold are the Shias. Please read this article about the Shiite Imam Mahdi.

This claim really betrays complete ignorance on this subject. There is no basis for this claim whatsoever. None of these authentic ahadith on the Mahdi contain Shias in their chain of narration.

Verse 158 of Chapter 4:.
بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزاً حَكِيما

[...] Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven.

False.

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

وَرَفَعْنَاهُ مَكَاناً عَلِيّاً

19.57 . And We raised him to a lofty station

This refers to his being taken up to the heaven if you consult the books of Tafsîr. So it actually refutes your claim.


More info in this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...l-burhaan.html

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[adi8putra]

what would i do without u bro ansar? ;D thanks for d mod 4 highlighting something that we r not aware off.... jazakallah

[Samee]

:sl:

All the proofs necessary have been given above to clarify that Isa (alayhis salam) and the Mahdi will reign on earth in the future.

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Okay thank you all for the replies

Brother Ansar Al adl I did notice brother Ahmed posted hadeeth from Abu Dawood regading Imam Mahdi..if there hadeeth in bukhari and Muslim then please do post it.

why should i believe in Imam Mahdi when the Qur'an doesnt mention him? i did raise these questions in sunniforum and the brothers and sisters tried to explain to me and one even told me this ' sister you better believe in him because I've heard some scholars say any Muslim who doesnt is a kaafir'

:w:

[Hussein radi]

yes, if u dont believe in iman mahdi u will be a unbeliever. i Dont know about you, but i definitely believe in him. And i cant wait tell he comes!

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Okay thank you all for the replies

Brother Ansar Al adl I did notice brother Ahmed posted hadeeth from Abu Dawood regading Imam Mahdi..if there hadeeth in bukhari and Muslim then please do post it.

Muslim Book 041, Number 6961:

Abu Nadra reported:" We were in the company of Jabir b. 'Abdulldh that he said it may happen that the people of Iraq may not send their qafiz and dirhams (their measures of food stuff and their money). We said: Who would be respolisible for it? He said: The non_Arabs would prevt them. He again said: There is the possibility that the people of Syria may not send their dinar and mudd. We said: Who would be responsible for it? He said This prevention would be made by the Romans. He (Jabir b. Abdullab) kept quiet for a while and then reported Allah', s Messengdt (may peas be upon him) having said There would be a caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to thd people wiothout counting it. I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-'Ala: Do you mean 'Umarb. 'Abd al-Aziz? They said: No (he would be The Mahdi.).

why should i believe in Imam Mahdi when the Qur'an doesnt mention him? i did raise these questions in sunniforum and the brothers and sisters tried to explain to me and one even told me this ' sister you better believe in him because I've heard some scholars say any Muslim who doesnt is a kaafir'

Why do you pray the way you do since the Quran doesnt mention the way to pray? Why do you give 2.5% for Zakat since the Quran doesnt mention that amount? Why do you do Hajj the way you do since the Quran doesnt mention all the details of Hajj?

The Quran and the Sunnah are complementary. Without taking in account the Sunnah you have no Islam. Allah has said in the Quran to obey the Messenger, therefore, the Sunnah has to be preserved for the later generations.

65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad

) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Brother Ansar Al adl I did notice brother Ahmed posted hadeeth from Abu Dawood regading Imam Mahdi..if there hadeeth in bukhari and Muslim then please do post it.

The hadith says that 'Îsa will descend and will be lead in prayer by the Mahdi. eg.

Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: "The Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: ‘‘Eesaa ibn Maryam will descend, and their leader [the Mahdi] will say, "Come and lead us in prayer," but he will say, "No, one of them should lead them as an honour to this ummah from Allaah."’" The version narrated by Muslim says: "… Then ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (Peace be upon him) will descend and their leader will say, ‘Come and lead us in prayer,’ but he will say, ‘No, some of you are leaders over others as an honour from Allaah to this ummah.’" (Reported by Muslim, 225)

why should i believe in Imam Mahdi when the Qur'an doesnt mention him?

Because the Qur'an commands us to accept the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and one of the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad was that of the coming of Imam Mahdi. The Qur'an includes only the articles of faith, while prophecies are found in the teachings of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh prophecised that his followers would spread past the Byzantine and Persian Empires. That was a prophecy, not an article of faith so it wasn't in the Qur'an but we are still required to believe in it all the same. Some prophecies are only alluded to by the Qur'an, like the conquest of Makkah.

[Takumi]

All aimmah were mortals and were not infallible and make mistakes. (boy, am I going to get so beaten up...)

All aimmah will not be there to defend us from the hell fire.

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Not true. He will come down as establised by the Quran and the Hadith and the opinions of the Ulema.

THE FIRST REFERENCE: is in Surah Nisaa’, verses (156-159). As for the context of these verses, Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed Jesus son of Mary - the Messenger of Allah. Thereupon Allah, the Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says, "And because of their saying (boasting), ‘We killed Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so." [an-Nisaa’ 4:157]

"But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise." [an-Nisaa’ 4:158]

So, if anyone claims that only the soul was raised, it would be incorrect, as is shown from the two following perspectives.


FIRSTLY, Allah made a mention of this raise in the context of refutation of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ. So, if it were that only the soul was raised, then that would actually mean an acknowledgment of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ - which is to remove his soul!

They didnt kill him Allah wouldnt allow that..What is wrong with believing Prophet Isa (A.S) died naturally like all humans in another place?

Allah mentions other Prophets being raised up..not to heaven but raising them to high stations.

[/B] The verse presents the message in a future tense, so it is with regards to the events to come after the raising of the Christ. It informs that some of the People of the Book will believe in the Christ. But when will that be? It will be upon his descent, his return and coming onto the earth once again. Imam Tabari, the renowned scholar of the Quranic exegesis (may Allah cover him in mercy), explained this. He said, “The meaning of the verse ‘And there is none of the people of the Scripture but must believe in him’, that is: in Jesus, ‘before his death’, that is: before the death of Jesus. It is explained as follows: that all of them will affirm and acknowledge him when he descends to kill the Antichrist, thereafter, all the religion will give way to only the one, which is the pure upright religion of Islam - the religion of Abraham (may the peace be him)." [See Tafsir at-Tabari 4:356-357].

وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ
شَهِيداً
There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death , and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
(4:159)


This verse doesnt have 1 set interpretation..Why does this scholar make it seem as if theres a consensus on the interpretation of this verse?..i have the salafi translation and they give two interpretation. One as stated above and the other is below.


A second interpretation again takes “believe in him” as “believe in Jesus” but takes “his death” as “death of one of the people of the book”. That is, none of the people of the book – sometimes taken to refer to Jews, since the Christians already believe in Jesus – dies without first coming to faith in Jesus as the true messenger of God.Ibn ‘Abbas was asked what if someone among the people of the book dies by falling from a wall. He replied that he will believe during the fall. Muhammad bin Sirin, Dahhak and Juwayriah also shared this opinion.

Another interpretation attributed to ‘Ikramah, takes “believe in him” as “believe in Muhammad” and “his death” in the sense of “the death of the people of the book”. This gives the same meaning as the first interpretation except that the faith attained by the people of the book before dying is faith in the Prophet Muhammad.


Also if Prophet Isa (A.S) is alive currrently in heaven..where is he? with whom? and doesnt Zakah and Salah obligatory for him if He is alive?

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكاً أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيّاً

And has made me blessed wheresoever I may be , and has enjoined upon me prayer and alms giving so long as I remain alive [Qur'an:19-31]



إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ

( And remember ) when Allah said : O Jesus! Lo! I am causing you to die and raising you unto Me , and am cleansing youof those who disbelieve (3:55)

Why do people have a problem with this translation? Again there is no consensus on this as evidenced below.

وروى علي بن أبي طلحة عن ابن عباس متوفيك أي مميتك

Ali Bin Abi Talhah has reported that Ibn Abbas said: Mutawaffika connotes Mumayyituka (I am going to give you death)


وَمَا مُحَمَّدٌ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ أَفَإِن مَّاتَ أَوْ قُتِلَ انقَلَبْتُمْ
عَلَى أَعْقَابِكُمْ وَمَن يَنقَلِبْ عَلَىَ عَقِبَيْهِ فَلَن يَضُرَّ اللّهَ شَيْئاً وَسَيَجْزِي اللّهُ
الشَّاكِرِينَ

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; messengers have already passed away before him … (3:144)

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ
كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

5.75 . The Messiah , son of Mary , was no other than a messenger , messengers ( the like of whom ) had passed away before him . And his mother was a saintly woman . And they both used to eat ( earthly ) food . See how we make the revelations clear for them , and see how they are turned away!


So the message in the Qur'an is very clear.Prophet Isa was like all other Prophets.

[scentsofjannah]

[/INDENT]
Why do you pray the way you do since the Quran doesnt mention the way to pray? Why do you give 2.5% for Zakat since the Quran doesnt mention that amount? Why do you do Hajj the way you do since the Quran doesnt mention all the details of Hajj?

The Quran and the Sunnah are complementary. Without taking in account the Sunnah you have no Islam. Allah has said in the Quran to obey the Messenger, therefore, the Sunnah has to be preserved for the later generations.

65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad

) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

:w:

Alhamdullilah I am not a hadeeth rejector..i just think its wrong to believe in beliefs not found in the Qur'an this includes music being haraam, stoning to death the adulterers etc.

Dr. Ahmad Shafaat isnt also one but he is for the reviving of hadeeth criticism...and to be honest with you theres a lack of this in our Ummah..everyone just thinks the hadeeths are all perfect when they are clearly not.

[Takumi]

who is this Dr Ahmad Shafaat? What are his credentials? thanks.

[scentsofjannah]

He is a scholar. I can't say more..you can google his name.

[Takumi]

he has phd in math. scholar in math?

[scentsofjannah]

Conclusive proof that Jesus (a.s) died a natural death is furnished by the verse Q5:117. Allah is said to remonstrate with Jesus (a.s) and enquires if he taught his followers: "Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah" (Q5:116)? Jesus (a.s) is made to say: "I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die (i.e. after my death) Thou hast been the Watcher over them and Thou art witness over all things" (Q5:117). The following facts are revealed by this verse: (i) As long as Jesus (a.s) was alive, he kept a careful watch on those who followed him; (ii) but he did not know how they behaved after his death; (iii) the followers of Jesus (a.s) have gone astray.

Accordingly, as long as Jesus (a.s) lived, his teachings were uncorrupted. The doctrine of his Divinity was introduced after his death or he could not plead ignorance. This verse (Q5:117) conclusively proves that Jesus (a.s) will not return, for if he returns to this earth, this verse is rendered void. He should have said that he had corrected his people on a second coming. He does not say so. A report in Sahih Bukhari supplements the proof provided by the verse Q5:117. It is narrated that on the Day of Resurrection, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.w) would be shown some men from among his ummah being dragged towards hell. The Holy Prophet is reported to have said that he will plead: "I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die (i.e. after my death), Thou hast been the Watcher over them and Thou art witness over all thing." (Al-Bukhari Kitab-ul Tafseer). Note the words: they are identical to those of verse Q5:117. Since the words are the same, the same meaning must also be assigned to them. Double standards cannot be accepted.

[scentsofjannah]

yes, if u dont believe in iman mahdi u will be a unbeliever. i Dont know about you, but i definitely believe in him. And i cant wait tell he comes!

why would i be an unbeliever?

I believe in God

in His final Prophet.

in the Qur'an.

and in many Hadeeths that don't establish anything new (bid'a) or contradict the Qur'an.

so why would i be an unbeliever? you are putting me in that same category like the kuffar? the disbelieving athiests and disbelieving People of the book? who don't give a toss about the Holy Qur'an? shame on you.

[Mawaddah]

Amazing, I never knew that there were muslims who actually claimed other than which is clearly stated in the Qur'an and Hadeeth about Isa ibn Maryam.
Oh well, we learn something new all the time isn't it :)
Brothers Ansar al-Adl and Ahmad have refuted your claims very well, I suggest you pay more attention to that....

By the way, who is this 'scholar' you are talking about?

[Chuck]

Salam sister,

because I've heard some scholars say any Muslim who doesnt is a kaafir'

Now that is going too far. Anyhow, if you don't want to believe in mahdi and Isa (p) it is not a bigee. Return of Jesus (p) will be a very big event, and most muslims, christians, and jews will come to believe in him when this will take place.

But sufficient is the verse "And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path."

The verse speaks in future tense; I don't think any doubt can remain after this.

Also if Prophet Isa (A.S) is alive currrently in heaven..where is he? with whom? and doesnt Zakah and Salah obligatory for him if He is alive?

I don't see the relevance of these questions, we are not responsible for his salah and zakah, but it is relevant for us that we don't go against him like the jews of his time, when he returns.

So the message in the Qur'an is very clear.Prophet Isa was like all other Prophets.

Yes, to show that is just another prophet, but it doesn't mean his miracles and circumstances won't be different. As far as I know, no other prophet spoke in the cradle.

[snakelegs]

interesting thread. i think it's good when people question, rather than just blindly follow something.
some muslims sure like to takfir.

[scentsofjannah]

Salam sister,

Now that is going too far. Anyhow, if you don't want to believe in mahdi and Isa (p) it is not a bigee. Return of Jesus (p) will be a very big event, and most muslims, christians, and jews will come to believe in him when this will take place.

But sufficient is the verse "And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path."

The verse speaks in future tense; I don't think any doubt can remain after this.

Actually brother that is one of several interpretations of this verse.

In opinions attributed to Ibn ‘Abbas, Mujahid, ‘Ikramah, Qatadah, Suddi, Dahhak, Abu al-‘Aliah and Abu Malik this is understood to refer to Jesus’ return before the Hour as its sign: he is a means for the knowledge for the Hour in the sense that upon his return people will know that the Hour is surely coming. To support this interpretation some have read ‘alam (sign) instead of ‘ilm (knowledge). A related shi‘ah interpretation, also held by some sunnis under shi‘ah influence is that the verse refers to the coming of al-Mahdi, who may or may not be identified with Jesus.

Hasan Basari and Sa‘id bin Jubayr take hu (which could mean “he” or “it”) to refer to the Qur`an. That is: the Qur`an is the source of knowledge for the Hour.


See the most cited verse to validate this belief..is not clear..as people in the past have differed on its interpretation. In my eyes it cannot be presented as definitive proof.


As to Imam Mahdi..im almost certain its a belief taken from Twelver Shias. Iraq at the time was the place for this fake hadeeth business..hadeeths were fabricated in favour of Ali , in favour of Muawiya etc, even some ignorant sufis fabricated hadeeths to make people more religious..for them the end justified the means.

[Takumi]

So, if people differed on its interpretation, what's the problem again?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

What is wrong with believing Prophet Isa (A.S) died naturally like all humans in another place?

Because it is false. The Prophet Muhamamd pbuh told us that 'Isa will return. There is no valid reason for you to reject the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Allah mentions other Prophets being raised up..not to heaven but raising them to high stations.

If you consult the tafsir you will see that Idris was 'raised up' to heaven as well, where his soul was taken by the angel of death.

This verse doesnt have 1 set interpretation..Why does this scholar make it seem as if theres a consensus on the interpretation of this verse?..i have the salafi translation and they give two interpretation. One as stated above and the other is below.

Irrespective of how you interpret an individual verse there is a unanimous consensus amongst the Muslim scholars concerning the descent of 'Isa as it is established in so many authentic mutawâti ahâtîth. There is no basis for someone to deny it.

Also the reports concerning the interpretation of the verse you quoted are not all of strong authenticity. It is amazing that you reject the MOST AUTHENTIC narrations which unanimously affirm the descent of Isa, but then you substantiate your claim by quoting narrations of arguable authenticity concerning the opinions of the sahaba!!

Also if Prophet Isa (A.S) is alive currrently in heaven..where is he? with whom? and doesnt Zakah and Salah obligatory for him if He is alive?

He is alive but is no longer in the life of Ad-Dunya, which is what the verse is referring to. He is alive and with Allah. This is confirmed in the most authentic ahadith.

Why do people have a problem with this translation? Again there is no consensus on this as evidenced below.

I already showed you what the correct meaning is but you ignored the answer:

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

وروى علي بن أبي طلحة عن ابن عباس متوفيك أي مميتك

Ali Bin Abi Talhah has reported that Ibn Abbas said: Mutawaffika connotes Mumayyituka (I am going to give you death)

You ignore the most authentic chains of narration but substantiate your argument with the weakest! Can there be any worse fallacy? There are numerous AUTHENTIC ahadith reported ON THE AUTHORITY OF IBN ABBAS concerning the descent of Jesus, so will you deny these in favor of fabricated quotations?

I also find it repugnant that you just PLAGIARISE this material from different sources and paste it as though it is your own. You copied the above from Tariq Hashimi's Renaissance article.

So the message in the Qur'an is very clear.Prophet Isa was like all other Prophets.

In that he is a mortal and is not divine. Neither of which negates his second coming which is established beyond a shadow of a doubt in hundreds of authentic ahadith. You don't have a single valid reason to deny it.

Dr. Ahmad Shafaat isnt also one but he is for the reviving of hadeeth criticism

Ahmad Shafaat has absolutely no qualifications in the sciences of ahadith. He is not 'reviving' them; we already had great hadith scholars of this century like Shaykh Ahmad Shakir, Shaykh Al-Albani, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abbad, and so on. It is high time that we go to the scholars for knowledge and not the unqualified ignoramus, just as we go to the Medical Physicians for treatment and not some guy at a corner stand.

Conclusive proof that Jesus (a.s) died a natural death is furnished by the verse Q5:117. Allah is said to remonstrate with Jesus (a.s) and enquires if he taught his followers: "Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah" (Q5:116)? Jesus (a.s) is made to say: "I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die (i.e. after my death) Thou hast been the Watcher over them and Thou art witness over all things" (Q5:117). The following facts are revealed by this verse: (i) As long as Jesus (a.s) was alive, he kept a careful watch on those who followed him; (ii) but he did not know how they behaved after his death; (iii) the followers of Jesus (a.s) have gone astray.

The classic fallacy known as petitio principii. M. A. Malek - who you have plagiarised from as opposed to articulating your own arguments, which is a direct violation of our forum rules - has assumed what he has yet to prove. He translated tawaffa as 'die' and has extrapolated from the verse accordingly to prove...that Jesus died. The verse gives no support to the notion that he never came to know of their deviation after him, he merely affirms that it was Allah swt who saw how they took his pristine creed and corrupted it.

As to Imam Mahdi..im almost certain its a belief taken from Twelver Shias. Iraq at the time was the place for this fake hadeeth business..hadeeths were fabricated in favour of Ali , in favour of Muawiya etc, even some ignorant sufis fabricated hadeeths to make people more religious..for them the end justified the means.

I already showed this claim has absolutely no academic value or scholarly basis. As Shaykh Yasir Qadhi points out in his in-depth analysis on this topic, it betrays the utter paucity of the claimant's knowledge of hadith sciences. There are absolutely no shias in the chain of narration for the authentic ahadith. Fabricated ahadith do exist, and many were fabricated with devious intent, but the fabricated ahadith have been seperated from the authentically transmitted ahadith through a rigorous procedure. If you are ignorant of that procedure then how can you possibly hope to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of? Educate yourself first, please.

why would i be an unbeliever?

I believe in God

in His final Prophet.

No your belief in the prophet is incomplete because you reject the authentically transmitted teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh with absolutely no reason to do so. As for why these concepts do not come in the Qur'an, I already answered that but you ignored my response. They are prophecies not articles of faith. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh prophecized many things, big and small, they don't all appear in the Qur'an because the Qur'an is for individual guidance.

:w:

[afriend]

Because it is false. The Prophet Muhamamd pbuh told us that 'Isa will return. There is no valid reason for you to reject the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh

Hence the extra grave dug next to RasoolAllah[SAW]...And he ordered this before his death...and it happened for a reason...How could it be false if this is the case?

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:
Because it is false. The Prophet Muhamamd pbuh told us that 'Isa will return. There is no valid reason for you to reject the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
If you consult the tafsir you will see that Idris was 'raised up' to heaven as well, where his soul was taken by the angel of death.
Irrespective of how you interpret an individual verse there is a unanimous consensus amongst the Muslim scholars concerning the descent of 'Isa as it is established in so many authentic mutawâti ahâtîth. There is no basis for someone to deny it.

Also the reports concerning the interpretation of the verse you quoted are not all of strong authenticity. It is amazing that you reject the MOST AUTHENTIC narrations which unanimously affirm the descent of Isa, but then you substantiate your claim by quoting narrations of arguable authenticity concerning the opinions of the sahaba!!

He is alive but is no longer in the life of Ad-Dunya, which is what the verse is referring to. He is alive and with Allah. This is confirmed in the most authentic ahadith.

I already showed you what the correct meaning is but you ignored the answer:

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

You ignore the most authentic chains of narration but substantiate your argument with the weakest! Can there be any worse fallacy? There are numerous AUTHENTIC ahadith reported ON THE AUTHORITY OF IBN ABBAS concerning the descent of Jesus, so will you deny these in favor of fabricated quotations?

I also find it repugnant that you just PLAGIARISE this material from different sources and paste it as though it is your own. You copied the above from Tariq Hashimi's Renaissance article.

In that he is a mortal and is not divine. Neither of which negates his second coming which is established beyond a shadow of a doubt in hundreds of authentic ahadith. You don't have a single valid reason to deny it.
Ahmad Shafaat has absolutely no qualifications in the sciences of ahadith. He is not 'reviving' them; we already had great hadith scholars of this century like Shaykh Ahmad Shakir, Shaykh Al-Albani, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abbad, and so on. It is high time that we go to the scholars for knowledge and not the unqualified ignoramus, just as we go to the Medical Physicians for treatment and not some guy at a corner stand.
The classic fallacy known as petitio principii. M. A. Malek - who you have plagiarised from as opposed to articulating your own arguments, which is a direct violation of our forum rules - has assumed what he has yet to prove. He translated tawaffa as 'die' and has extrapolated from the verse accordingly to prove...that Jesus died. The verse gives no support to the notion that he never came to know of their deviation after him, he merely affirms that it was Allah swt who saw how they took his pristine creed and corrupted it.
I already showed this claim has absolutely no academic value or scholarly basis. As Shaykh Yasir Qadhi points out in his in-depth analysis on this topic, it betrays the utter paucity of the claimant's knowledge of hadith sciences. There are absolutely no shias in the chain of narration for the authentic ahadith. Fabricated ahadith do exist, and many were fabricated with devious intent, but the fabricated ahadith have been seperated from the authentically transmitted ahadith through a rigorous procedure. If you are ignorant of that procedure then how can you possibly hope to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of? Educate yourself first, please.
No your belief in the prophet is incomplete because you reject the authentically transmitted teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh with absolutely no reason to do so. As for why these concepts do not come in the Qur'an, I already answered that but you ignored my response. They are prophecies not articles of faith. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh prophecized many things, big and small, they don't all appear in the Qur'an because the Qur'an is for individual guidance.

:w:

i was going to post M.A malek's entire article but much of his argument..ie Prophet Isa (A.S) ordered to pray and pay zakah till hes alive is also discussed in his article..

I have never taken credit for it..and I'm sure if i posted the entire article you would have deleted it just like my other threads and posts.

About Ibn Abbas saying mumeetuka means 'cause you to die' the arabic and the translation was taken from the renaissance site (i dont have an arabic keyboard)

i think this is really irrational of you to say my belief in Prophet Muhammed is incomplete. I don't think it is..just to let you know many of the salaf have said such things like Prophet Isa (A.S) is dead including Prophet Muhammed (saw) himself and this is recorded in Bukhari...When i find the hadeeths ill post it Inshallah.

Also may i add NO not all fabricated ahadeeths have been identified..there are fabricated hadeeths in bukhari, and other hadeeth books after all such people are humans..and humans err...No matter how hard people try to make the hdeeth books authentic they will not succeed to make it 100% authentic.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

i was going to post M.A malek's entire article but much of his argument..ie Prophet Isa (A.S) ordered to pray and pay zakah till hes alive is also discussed in his article..

You are not going to copy-paste from other sources, especially inauthentic material. You will have to articulate the arguments yourself.

About Ibn Abbas saying mumeetuka means 'cause you to die' the arabic and the translation was taken from the renaissance site (i dont have an arabic keyboard)

Yes, and I have shown why it is fallacious to substantiate your argument with quotes of dubious authenticity while rejecting 100s of quotes of unanimously accepted authenticity.

i think this is really irrational of you to say my belief in Prophet Muhammed is incomplete. I don't think it is..

Whether you think so or not will not change reality. If you deny the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, your belief in him is incomplete. So far you have yet to provide even a single reason to reject the hadith on the descent of 'Isa pbuh.

just to let you know many of the salaf have said such things like Prophet Isa (A.S) is dead including Prophet Muhammed (saw) himself and this is recorded in Bukhari...When i find the hadeeths ill post it Inshallah.

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Also may i add NO not all fabricated ahadeeths have been identified..there are fabricated hadeeths in bukhari

There is not a single fabricated hadith in Sahih Bukhari. The Muhaditheen are unanimous about this, irrespective of whether an ignoramus without any education in Usool Al-Hadith thinks otherwise.

and other hadeeth books after all such people are humans..and humans err...No matter how hard people try to make the hdeeth books authentic they will not succeed to make it 100% authentic.

The hadith classifcation is bot based on the efforts of one scholar only. Their efforts were based on the efforts of thousands of scholars before them and were confirmed by millions after them. It is inconceivable that they would all agree on an error so blatant as classifying a fabricated hadith as Saheeh, as you claim!

Moreover, your argument is a red-herring as well since Allah swt preserved and transmitted the Qur'an through human beings as well. The bottom line is that error only occurs if Allah wills it.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Sorry for the late reply i have been very busy moving and stuff.

I'm not looking for any fight..the former Sheikh of Al Azhar Shaykh Mahmood Shaltut even questioned this belief..Mohammed Abduh, Muhammed Al Ghazali , even Shaykh Ahmad Deedat etc..these are just some of the comtemporary scholars and there are other classical scholars who have also said that Prophet Isa (A.S) died..InshaAllah ill be posting all the relevant information..

Also about the hadeeth..im saw hadeeths in Bukhari were the Prophet spoke of Prophet Isa as if he had died...again i will post it once i settle down and stuff so inshaAllah bear with me.



:w:

[E'jaazi]

But you still did not answer the Brother's question! Why do you make Salah the way you do, when it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
I wrote.

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Clearly you have't posted any hadith whatsoever in your last post, you only repeated the same erroneous claim! So far you've only failed the challenge. Let's try again - please do not begin your next post with anything other than the hadith. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

again i will post it once i settle down and stuff so inshaAllah bear with me.

So far you haven't answered any of my points, arguments or challenges, so I'll be waiting, inshaa'Allah.
:w:

[Musalmaan]

:sl:

Read this article, insha'ALlah, it helps to remove your doubts about the basic belief of a muslim, and also becareful that you are not visiting qadiyaani site because it is their belief that he will not return.

THE DESCENSION OF HADHRAT ISAA BIN MARYAM (ALAIHI SALAAM)

The third sign from amongst the major signs that will occur close to Qiyaamah will be the descending of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) from the heavens, and his killing of the accursed dajjaal. This is Haqq and truth, as stated in the Qur'aan Majeed, the authentic Ahaadith and consensus of the Ummat. It is Fardh and necessary to accept and believe in this.

The one-eyed dajjaal will have already emerged by then and Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) will be preparing for Salaat in the Jaame Masjid in Damascus, when suddenly, Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will descend from the heavens on the eastern minaarat of this Masjid upon the shoulders of two angels. After the completion of the Salaat, he, together with.Imaam Mahdi, will head off towards dajjaal. The breath of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will be such that the kuffaar will not be able to withstand it. They will die as soon as it reaches them. As soon as dajjaal will set his eye on Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam), he will (literally) disintegrate, just as salt does when it comes in contact with water. Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will pursue dajjaal and he will corner him at a place called "Baabe Lud", and he will kill dajjaal with his spear. The blood will be shown to the Muslims. Thereafter, the Muslim army will fight the army of dajaal, which will consist of jews. There will be a war where the earth will be cleansed of the jews, just as it was rendered unclean by their existence. The jews, who laid claim that they had killed Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will then witness with their own eyes that the person who they had claimed to have killed, was actually stationed in the heavens and that he had returned to kill them. One of the wisdoms behind the ascension of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) into the skies was to save him from the mischief and plots of the jews. He is kept in the heavens for a specified period, where after he will return and complete his life as a normal human being. He is after a Bani Aadam (human being) and all humans must necessarily complete their lives in the normal way and then be buried in the ground. As Allaah Ta'ala says: "From it (earth) We have created you (human), and into it will We return you, and therefrom will We once again resurrect you". It is for this reason that Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will be made to return to the earth and he will live for a certain period, where after he will pass away and be buried close to Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam).

Another wisdom behind the ascension of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) was that the jews had accused him of being a sorcerer and magician and they falsified him, whilst they readily followed the accursed dajjaal. And since the jews had always held the Muslims and Christians in contempt, they will deem this (coming of dajjaal) as an ideal opportunity to get revenge of the Muslims. At this time, Allaah Ta'ala will send Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam), who will slay the leader of the jews (dajjaal), and they will get to see that the very person they had always claimed to have killed, is the one who will be killing them. It will also be made clear at this time that the, Maseeh of guidance (Hadhrat Isaa Bin Maryam -alaihi salaam), who it was Fardh to follow (at the time), they belied him and the Maseeh of deviation (dajjal) whom it was Fardh to belie, they actually followed.

HADHRAT ISAA'S (ALAIHI SALAAM) FOLLOWING THE SHARIAH OF MUHAMMAD (SALLALLAAHU ALAIHI WASALLAM) AFTER HIS DECENSION

Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will follow the Shariah of Nabi Muhammad (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) after he descends from the heavens, because the Shariah of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) was limited until the time of his ascension. With the coming of Nabi Muhammad (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam), all other Shariahs were abrogated and it was necessary for all man and jinn to follow this Shariah. Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) was the seal of all Nabis and his Shariah abrogated all previous ones. His was the last and perfection of all the previous ones. At that time, the actions of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will conform to the Qur' aan and Sunnah. After his ascension, Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will still be a Nabi, because no Nabi ever loses this status of his. But, he will be sent as a Nabi that follows the existing Shariah, and not as a Nabi that will bring his own new Shariah. After his descension he will not follow the Injeel, but he will follow the Qur'aan and Sunnah and he will judge also according to this.

HOW WILL HADHRAT ISAA (ALAIHI SALAAM) HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SHARIAH OF NABI MUHAMMAD (SALLALLAAHU ALAIHl WASALLAM)?

Some Ulama are of the opinion that Allaah Ta'ala will grant Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) the knowledge of the Shariah of Nabi Muhammad (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) prior to his descension, or that after his coming down, he will be given Wahi (Divine Revelation) regarding the Shariah, or he will learn it after studying the Qur' aan and Sunnat, or he will acquire it spiritually. For more details on this subject refer to this humble writer's Kitaab called "Al-Qowlul Muhkam Fi Nuzooli Isaa Ibni Maryam".

HADHRAT ISAA (ALAIHI SALAAM) AND IMAAM MAHDI (ALAIHI SALAAM) ARE TWO DIFFERENT PERSONS

From the Ahaadith Shareef regarding the appearance of Hadhrat Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) and the descension of Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam), it is as clear as daylight that these are two different personalities. Since the time of the Sahaabah, Taabi'een and upto the present time, there has been no one who has averred that Hadhrat Imaam Mahdi and Hadhrat Isaa (alaihima salaam) are one and the same person.

The reason for this is:

a) Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) is a Nabi and a Rasul, and Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) will be the last Khalifah of this Ummat and he will not be a Nabi.

b). Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) was born to his mother, Hadhrat Maryam (alaiha salaam) without a father, and he was born about 600 years prior to Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasalam). Hadhrat Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) will be born in dose proximity to Qiyaamah in Madinah Munawarah and his father's name will be Abdullaah and his mother's Amina.

c) Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) is from the Bani Israeel and Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) will be from the progeny of Hadhrat Faatimah (radhiAllaahu anha).

AN OBJECTION AND ITS ANSWER

It is reported in a Hadith: "There will be no Mahdi except Isaa Bin Maryam". From this Hadith it appears that Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi sala-am) and Imaam Mahdi are one and the same person.

ANSWER

The answer to this is that this Hadith is weak and not authentic, as reported by Haafiz Ibn Hajar in "Fathul Baari" on page 358, vol.6.

Secondly, this Hadith is in opposition to the numerous Ahaadith where it is as dear as daylight that Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) and Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam) are two different people. Compared to authentic Ahaadith, weak and rejected Ahaadith are not considered.

Thirdly, if we consider even for a little while that this Hadith is true, then the answer will be that during the time of Hadhrat Isaa's (alaihi salaam) descension, there will be none who will be better equipped to be a guide than he. Although he will be following the Shariah of Nabi Muhammad (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam), he will still be a Nabi, and it is obvious that no normal person is better equipped to guide people than a Nabi. Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam), will be a Khalifah and Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam), a Nabi, whilst we know that all Nabis are sinless, hence he will be better equipped than Imaam Mahdi (alaihi salaam).

It is mentioned in a Hadith: "There is no (stronger) youth, than Ali". This Hadith does not mean that Hadhrat Ali (radhiAllaahu anhu) was the ONLY youth in the world at that time. In the same way, the above mentioned Hadith will not mean that Hadhrat Isaa (alaihi salaam) will be the ONLY one to guide people.

[scentsofjannah]

But you still did not answer the Brother's question! Why do you make Salah the way you do, when it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran?

I answered it..i don't deny the importance of hadeeth..but its not independant..for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an yet many muslims speak of it as if its haraam just like gambling and pork and alcohol and these people always say its haraam because of this or that hadeeth..same with stoning to death of adulterers, killing of apostates, Prophet Isa coming back, Imam Mahdi all these are not to be found in the Qur'an etc etc.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

[scentsofjannah]

its not a Qadiyani belief only brother..many more muslims are rejecting this belief...if i were to agree with brother Ansar that 'tawaffa' means what many scholars say it is then where are the verses that speak of Prophet Isa coming back?? I've shown from my previous replies how the one verse people use as the 'definetive' proof isnt even agreed upon! by the scholars themselves! so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..

:sl:

What gives you the right, and the "scholor" Dr. Ahmad Shafaat, who has not even a slight knowledge of Hadith to say what the Hadiths should or should not say? Your are putting your opinions in what the Hadiths should or should not say. You have no right to do so. The scholors, for the past 1400 years have established hadiths and some people come today who believe that all that work was worthless are not only displaying their ignorance, they are showing that they want the Hadiths and the Islamic Sources to be in accordance with their desires. You and they are walking down a very dangerous road.

Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an yet many muslims speak of it as if its haraam just like gambling and pork and alcohol and these people always say its haraam because of this or that hadeeth..same with stoning to death of adulterers, killing of apostates, Prophet Isa coming back, Imam Mahdi all these are not to be found in the Qur'an etc etc.

Forbiddence of Music has already been established in the Quran and furthermore in the Hadiths.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

You are rejecting Hadiths, by taking what you feel you want to take and rejecting those that do not go with your desires. You have yet to provide us ONE hadith in Bukhari where the Messenger of Allah said that Isa a.s. is dead.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

The scholors, for the past 1400 years have established hadiths and some people come today who believe that all that work was worthless are not only displaying their ignorance, they are showing that they want the Hadiths and the Islamic Sources to be in accordance with their desires. You and they are walking down a very dangerous road.

:w:
Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask?? is this the 'dangerous road' you're talking about? I'm baffled!!

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

Forbiddence of Music has already been established in the Quran and furthermore in the Hadiths.

It is not mentioned in the Qur'an..show me a single verse where Allah says Guitars and other string instruments are haraam? there have been some people who have interpretated one verse of the Qur'an to mean music..the verse doesnt talk about musical instruments ..it talks about the the vain idle talks..that can be in many music t.v programmes, and even you can pick up your telephone handset and you can be guilty of 'vain idle talk' .

You are rejecting Hadiths, by taking what you feel you want to take and rejecting those that do not go with your desires. You have yet to provide us ONE hadith in Bukhari where the Messenger of Allah said that Isa a.s. is dead.

:w:

Again the word ' YOUR DESIRES' is striking..i want the hadeeths to be in accordance with the Qur'an..the two should not conflict if the Qur'an says the adulterers and fornicators should be lashed 100 times then thats it..and the Prophet would never go against the Qur'an...lastly but not least i only desire what Allah desires for us...i believe in submitting to His Will totally since he is the All Merciful who knows whats good for us.


I don't want a debate..lets not turn this into one..i just wanted to discuss and have a mature dialogue about this but it seems some people thing this is a debate and a competition..I'm going to discuss the sayings of the ulema of the past regarding Isa being dead inshaAllah in my next reply and I'll also give the hadeeths in Bukhari..im just busy and replying to you from my friends house..but I'll be back InshAllah you all take care

:w:

[Kidman]

This is a wonderful dialog, don't take it out of hand or start name-calling, provide both proofs in a good manner. Even though I don't agree with ScentsofJannah... she is entitled to her opinion, and hopefully with dialogging we will all come to the correct and most knowledge-based conclusion.

Here are some Proofs on Imam Mahdi's return:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

References:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

References:

Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271 (narrated by Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)
Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086
al-Nisa'i and al-Bayhaqi, and others as quoted in:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; at that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (AS) will say: Here! Take!"

Reference:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #5083



The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

References:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,
The History Tabari
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251


In Sahih Muslim, in the Chapter of al-Fitan, there are some interesting traditions on what will happen in the last days of the world. I would like to quote two of them here:

Abu Nadra reported: We were with the company of Jabir Ibn Abdillah... Jabir Ibn Abdillah kept quite for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: "There would be a Caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it." I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-Ala: Do you mean Umar Ibn Abd al-Aziz? They said: NO, (he would be Imam Mahdi).

References:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6961
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2234, Tradition #67

[ NOTE: What are inside the parentheses in the above tradition are NOT my comments. They are the words of the translator of Sahih Muslim (Abdul Hamid Siddiqui).]

Similarly, we read in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Sa'id and Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: "There would be in the last (phase) of the time a Caliph who would distribute wealth but would not count."

References:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6964
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2235, Tradition #69

More???

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Muhammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:

"al-Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his appearance within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredictable and is very sudden)."

References:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, p269
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p250

Ibn Hajar wrote that:

Muqatil Ibn Sulayman and those who followed him among the (Sunni) commentators of Quran said that the verse: "And he shall be a Sign for (the coming of) the Hour" (Quran 43:61) was revealed about al-Mahdi.

Reference:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p247

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (RA) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Reference:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p251
Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57
Musnad, by Abu Ya'ala which provides another version of the tradition with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies: "You have more right to it, and verily Allah has honored some of you over others in this Ummah."
Sahih Ibn Habban, whose tradition reads: "their leader al-Mahdi" and the rest of tradition is the same.

In Sahih al-Bukhari, it is narrated that:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Marry (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"
Sunni reference:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v4, Tradition #658

Shaikh Ahmad Muhammad Shakir (d. 1377/1958), one of the greatest contemporary scholar of Hadith and Tafsir, whose major work was his commentary on Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (for a biography of Ahmad Shakir, see al-Aalam, v1, p253; Mu'jam al-Mu'allifeen, v13, p368) wrote in his commentary: "Belief in al-Mahdi is not particular to the Shia because it is from the narration of many companions of the Prophet in such way that NO one can cast doubt the truth (of this belief)." After this, he proceeds to a strong refutation of Ibn Khaldoon's weakening the traditions regarding al-Mahdi. (see Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal with commentary of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, Pub. by Dar al-Ma'arif, Egypt, v5, pp 196-198, v14, p288).

Al-Sayid Sabiq, the Mufti for the "Muslim Brotherhood," in his book, "al- 'Aqa'id al-Islamiyyah," that: "The idea about the Mahdi is indeed valid, and is one of the Islamic tenets that one must believe in." Mr. Sabiq also narrated a variety of traditions relating to the appearance of al-Mahdi (AS) in the above book.

The recent Fatwa in this issue was given in Mecca by "The Muslim World League" (Rabitatul 'Alamil Islami) on Oct. 11, 1976 (23 Shawwal 1396). This Fatwa states that more than twenty companions narrated traditions concerning al-Mahdi, and gives a list of those scholars of Hadith who have transmitted these narrations, and those who have written books on al-Mahdi. The Fatwa states:

"The memorizers (Huffadh) and scholars of Hadith have verified that there are authentic (Sahih) and acceptable (Hasan) reports among the traditions related to al-Mahdi. The majority of these traditions are related through numerous authorities (Mutawatir). There is no doubt that the status of those reports are Sahih and Mutawatir. (They have also verified) that the belief in Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is one of the beliefs of Ahlussunnah wal Jama'a. Only those ignorant of the Sunnah and innovators in doctrine deny it.
For the transcription and reproduction of this Fatwa, see, among others, the Introduction of al-Ganji al-Shafi'i, in the book named "al-Bayan," Beirut, 1399/1979, pp 76-79 and in Appendix.


As far as we have been able to discover, at least 35 prominent Sunni scholars have written 46 of books EXCLUSIVELY about Imam al-Mahdi (AS), the leader of our time. Here are some of the name of some of these books:

(1) "Kitab al-Mahdi," by Abu Dawud.
(2) "Alamat al-Mahdi," by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti.
(3) "al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar," by Ibn Hajar.
(4) "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman," by Allamah Abu Abdillah Ibn Muhammad Yusuf al-Ganji al-Shafi'i.
(5) "Iqd al-Durar fi Akbar al-Imam al-Muntadhar," by Shaikh Jamaluddin Yusuf al-Damishqi.
(6) "Mahdi Aale Rasool," by Ali Ibn Sultan Muhammad al-Harawi al-Hanafi.
(7) "Manaqib al-Mahdi," by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani.
(8) "Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman," by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi.
(9) "Arba'in Hadith fi al-Mahdi," by Abdul Ala al-Hamadani.
(10) "Akhbar al-Mahdi," by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym.



Thanks, hopefully the info i provided helped with this dialog,

Kidman

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:w:
Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask?? is this the 'dangerous road' you're talking about? I'm baffled!!

:sl:

In accordance to the Quran? Are you too naive to see that it is according to the Quran? It is NOT contradicting to the Quran, therefore the opposite HAS to be true. It is in accordance with the Quran.

You are not able to see that. Your desires want the hadiths to be such and such, in accordance with such and such. They already are. But you doubt them, that is why you are coming up with these arguements and you have no basis to prove your point. You have yet to provide one hadeeth from Bukhari. Please do what brother Ansar said and start your next post with your hadith that will back up your claim, or please dont bother to post.

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

They are not superhuman, nor perfect. But the fact that there have been thousands and thousands of scholors who have said that the decension of Isa a.s is true and part of the Aqidah of a muslim makes it undeniable.

We dont need hadith criticism. We have the hadiths, those who think they are above following them because they find something in there that they dont understand, fail to comprehend so it becomes

a) Make it fit their desires.
b) This has to be false.

It is not mentioned in the Qur'an..show me a single verse where Allah says Guitars and other string instruments are haraam? there have been some people who have interpretated one verse of the Qur'an to mean music..the verse doesnt talk about musical instruments ..it talks about the the vain idle talks..that can be in many music t.v programmes, and even you can pick up your telephone handset and you can be guilty of 'vain idle talk' .

There are actaully three verses that indicate the prohibition of it. The Sahaba, the Tabieen and the 4 Imams, and many many other scholors are unanimous on the forbiddence of it. Please stick to the proper discussion.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...an-sunnah.html

When will the time come when the Muslims will take what the Scholors have agreed upon for hundred of years and accept instead of trying to find ways around the rulings?

Again the word ' YOUR DESIRES' is striking..i want the hadeeths to be in accordance with the Qur'an..the two should not conflict if the Qur'an says the adulterers and fornicators should be lashed 100 times then thats it..and the Prophet would never go against the Qur'an...lastly but not least i only desire what Allah desires for us...i believe in submitting to His Will totally since he is the All Merciful who knows whats good for us.

Ofcourse he would not. But are you knowledgeable of all the hadiths on an issue out there from all the books compiled? Do you know all the hadiths pertaining to that matter? But tell me, are you knowledgeable enough to know the when, the where, and the how of what the Prophet :arabic5: said? Are you a scholor of hadith that has studied for years about this science? I very much doubt it. And Ahmad Shafat is not one either. Has has no knowledge in the science of Hadith. It is not his place to 'revive hadith criticism".

It is time you take what the scholors of the past have said and accept it. Perhaps you should read about them, and then youll understand that what they said was not of their own desires.

I don't want a debate..lets not turn this into one..i just wanted to discuss and have a mature dialogue about this but it seems some people thing this is a debate and a competition..I'm going to discuss the sayings of the ulema of the past regarding Isa being dead inshaAllah in my next reply and I'll also give the hadeeths in Bukhari..im just busy and replying to you from my friends house..but I'll be back InshAllah you all take care

:w:

Please do not start your next post without those quotes and the Hadiths. Its funny how someone today 1400 years later finds a a Hadith in Bukhari about Isa a.s being dead when the scholors for the past 1000 years have not. Perhaps they might have over looked it.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

here are the ahadeeth and Qur'anic verses

It is reported by Ibn Abbas that the Prophet Muhammed said in a sermon.'O people! You will be gathered to your Lord (on the day of Judgment) ... and some people from my Umma will be taken and dragged towards hell. I shall say: ‘O Lord, but these are my people’. It will be replied: ‘You do not know what they did after you’. Then I shall say as did that righteous servant of God (i.e., Jesus) say: ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when You did cause me to die You was the Watcher over them’ ..." ( Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, under Surah Ma’idah)

Please look closely at what Prophet Isa (Jesus) pbuh said in the Qur'an

"And when God will say: ‘O Jesus, did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides God?’ He will reply: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. Surely You are the great Knower of the unseen.
I only said unto them only that which You commanded me , ( saying ) : Worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them , and when You caused me to die You was the Watcher over them . You are Witness over all things (Surah Al Maidah 116-117)

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..so how can you say this ayah to the exclusion of the others means something else? God is the author of confusion?

Ibn Abbas said: mutawaffi-ka means ‘I will cause you to die (mumeetuka) ’.

(Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, on verse 5:110).


"Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Tafeseer Ibn Kathir Surah Al Imran, 81)

Imam Bukhari reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said May the curse of God be upon the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship."

"Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said that, in his illness in which he died, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: ‘Every year Jibreel (peace be upon him)used to repeat the Holy Quran with me once, but this year he has done it twice. He has informed me that there is no prophet but he lives half as long as the one who preceded him. And he has told me that Jesus lived a hundred and twenty years, and I see that I am about to leave this world at sixty’."

(Hujjaj al-Kiramah, p. 428; Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 160, from Hazrat Fatima; and Mawahib al-Ladinya, vol. 1, p. 42)

"There is no one alive today but will be dead before a hundred years have passed over it." (Muslim, Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 7, p. 170)

Also we know the hadeeths about Prophet Muhammed seeing the past Prophets pbut in his night journey(mi'raaj) and this includes Prophet Isa...the dead and living live in the same place?!!

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (16:20-21)

The verse above is very important..its a fact many Christians worship Jesus ..ie Prophet Isa pbuh this verse is clear that all the humans worshipped as gods are dead and possess no knowledge of the unseen.This verse doesnt talk about idols fashioned by peoples hands.

Countless hadeeths of Prophet Muhammed pbuh and one explicit verse from the Qur'an inform us that there will be NO PROPHET after the death of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..so why exactly are we expecting another 'final prophet' to show up after 2000 years? a prophet that will come to 'kill all the pigs' in other words cruelly make them extinct and 'break the crosses'?..what ever happened to showing kindness to animals?

Prophet Isa pbuh also says that as long as hes alive hes been commanded by Allah to pray and help the poor..how is Prophet Isa pbuh perforiming these obligatory duties in heaven?

These are some of the questions we need to ask ourselves.

[scentsofjannah]

to brother Kidman..i don't believe in the coming back of Prophet Isa pbuh nor do i await any 'saviour' called Imam Al Mahdi simply because there is no mention about this in the Qur'an or the earliest hadeeth collections..

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

I answered it..i don't deny the importance of hadeeth..but its not independant..for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..

First of all, who are you to declare what the hadith (and by implication the Prophet Muhammad pbuh) should speak about and what he shouldn't speak about? Allah swt says:
4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
By necessity, if people refer EVERY SINGLE DISPUTE of theirs to the Prophet saws, then it means that the vast majority of these disputes are not discussed in the Qur'an, but in the ahâdîth where the Prophet's ruling on them is found. Consequently, the vast majority of such rulings would be additional to the material found in the Qur'an.

Secondly, I already answered about which issues the hadith detail that are not in the Qur'an. They detail practices and prophecies, NOT pillars of faith upon which the message of Islam and its theology is built. All this is found in the Qur'an.

Thirdly, Muslims all around the word celebrate the two Eids. It is common knowledge that these are the celebrations of Islam. Please show me where in the Qur'an the Eid celebrations are mentioned.

Fourthly, if you suggest that the hadith can be relied upon in some cases and not others, then how can you object to someone who interprets the Qur'an in a different manner and says that 'Salah' refers to any form of meditation and therefore Muslims do not need to perform the five daily prayers. How can you object to someone who says that the mention of the day of judgement is metaphorical as well as the prophets and books? Such a person would be disbelieving in the indisuputable fundamentals of Islam. And yet your whimsical pick-and-choose approach to hadith negates any objection on your part to such ideas. Don't you realize that extremists follow the exact same idea of yours, to pick some hadith and not others, and therefore bring harm to others?

however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an...

...According to your interpretation!! The problem is, how will you argue with someone who says that the five daily prayers are not mentioned in the Qur'an and that salah just means 'meditate'? You continue to reject the understanding of the Qur'an by the Ahâdîth and Âthâr and instead substitute it with your personal interpretation. The fallacy in such a methodology should be patently obvious when considering the extreme, far-fetched interpretations anyone can draw from the Qur'an if they are given license to interpret it as they desire.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

Why don't YOU respond to my posts instead of continually evading the arguments, repeating your baseless assumptions, erroneous beliefs and self-refuting propositions? You only have repeated here what was already refuted and conveniently ignored the refutation, which betrays a lack of sincerity in one's commitment to the truth.

if i were to agree with brother Ansar that 'tawaffa' means what many scholars say it is then where are the verses that speak of Prophet Isa coming back??

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!

I've shown from my previous replies how the one verse people use as the 'definetive' proof isnt even agreed upon! by the scholars themselves!

Actually, you've only spewed various wild claims, but when they are challenged you quickly shift ground, ignore, and repeat the same fallacious conclusions.

so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

Haven't read much of the Qur'an?
40:78 And indeed We have sent Messengers before you [O Muhammad], of some of them we have related to you their story; and of some We have NOT related to you their story.

The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets like Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl - all of whom are mentioned BY NAME. And yet, their story is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. I challenge you to provide me with their COMPLETE story from the Qur'an and without reference to Ahadith. If you cannot, you have refuted your OWN argument!!

Secondly, what about Prophet Muhammad saws?!? He is the GREATEST prophet and messenger, and yet a coherent and complete understanding of his life can only be obtained with reference to extra-qur'anic sources.

Thirdly, the reason why the full story of Prophet 'Isa pbuh's return is not mentioned (and I already have said this though you neglected my response) is because it is also a prophecy. It is part of the prophecies of Muhammad pbuh regarding the end times, in fact one of the Ashrât al-Kubrâ (major signs). The Qur'an is a book of guidance and thus contains the core elements of the Islamic message. Prophecies and practices are provided or elaborated in the Ahâdîth.

Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask??

Yes because the statement reeks of fallacies. When you say you want the ahâdîth to be in total accordance with the Qur'an, BY DEFAULT you are speaking about the Qur'an as YOU [mis]understand and [mis]interpret it. You simply have not shown a single conflict between the ahâdîth and the Qur'an in this entire thread yet you continue to spout this baseless and fallacious notion. We call this fallacy argumentum ad nauseum.

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.

I'm ignoring your diversionary tactics on music and adultery, btw.

here are the ahadeeth and Qur'anic verses

I previously wrote:

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Let's see if you answered the challenge.

It is reported by Ibn Abbas that the Prophet Muhammed said in a sermon.'O people! You will be gathered to your Lord (on the day of Judgment) ... and some people from my Umma will be taken and dragged towards hell. I shall say: ‘O Lord, but these are my people’. It will be replied: ‘You do not know what they did after you’. Then I shall say as did that righteous servant of God (i.e., Jesus) say: ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when You did cause me to die You was the Watcher over them’ ..." ( Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, under Surah Ma’idah)

Fails to meet the challenge. This hadith talks about the Day of Judgement. Obviously Prophet Jesus pbuh is going to return and then pass away - you said that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh has said that Jesus has DIED.

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..

WRONG. I can give you a verse straight from the Qur'an that says otherwise:
“Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, AND THOSE THAT DIE NOT DURING THEIR SLEEP; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Stop repeating blatantly false claims like this. Do I really have to RE-PASTE this article in the thread a FOURTH time?!

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

"Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Tafeseer Ibn Kathir Surah Al Imran, 81)

pThat's the point! Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a FOLLOWER of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He will not come as a Prophet, and this will be demonstrated by the fact that he will pray behind Imam Mahdi.

Imam Bukhari reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said May the curse of God be upon the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship."

The Christians believe in more Prophets than Jesus pbuh.

"Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said that, in his illness in which he died, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: ‘Every year Jibreel (peace be upon him)used to repeat the Holy Quran with me once, but this year he has done it twice. He has informed me that there is no prophet but he lives half as long as the one who preceded him. And he has told me that Jesus lived a hundred and twenty years, and I see that I am about to leave this world at sixty’."

(Hujjaj al-Kiramah, p. 428; Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 160, from Hazrat Fatima; and Mawahib al-Ladinya, vol. 1, p. 42)

Again the fallacy that I already pointed out earlier in this thread. You ignore the hundreds of authentic narrations and then bring me the weakest and most dubious ones for your arguments! Kanz al-ummal has thousands of ahadith without any chain of narration. The authentic ahadith all say that Prophet Jesus pbuh will return.

Clearly the Ahmadiyyah site you plagiarised from needs to seriously re-think its material.

"There is no one alive today but will be dead before a hundred years have passed over it." (Muslim, Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 7, p. 170)

This is actually proof against Khidr living but not against Prophet Jesus pbuh because he is not living on this earth. He is with Allah swt.

Also we know the hadeeths about Prophet Muhammed seeing the past Prophets pbut in his night journey(mi'raaj) and this includes Prophet Isa...the dead and living live in the same place?!!

Absolutely.

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (16:20-21)

The verse above is very important..its a fact many Christians worship Jesus ..ie Prophet Isa pbuh this verse is clear that all the humans worshipped as gods are dead and possess no knowledge of the unseen.This verse doesnt talk about idols fashioned by peoples hands.

The Qur'an also says that the mushrikeen will go to hell alongside those whom they worshipped besides Allah swt (Qur'an 21:98). If you want to strip verses of their context and apply them absolutely then you are also forced to claim that Prophet 'Isa pbuh is destined for hell (Na'ûdhubillah!).

Countless hadeeths of Prophet Muhammed pbuh and one explicit verse from the Qur'an inform us that there will be NO PROPHET after the death of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..so why exactly are we expecting another 'final prophet' to show up after 2000 years?

He is not a final Prophet, he is penultimate in prophethood and Muhammad pbuh is the final Prophet. Prophet Jesus will return as a follower of Muhammad pbuh; the position of Prophethood is one that is granted and does not necessarily continue throughout one's entire life. If that were the case then why did Muhammad saws become a prophet at the age of 40?

a prophet that will come to 'kill all the pigs' in other words cruelly make them extinct and 'break the crosses'?..what ever happened to showing kindness to animals?

Muslims are also commanded to sacrifice animals in many occasions. Does that mean we are all cruel? Every day you eat animals that were killed before they arrived on your plate. This is frankly the meekest and most inane of your 'arguments'!

Prophet Isa pbuh also says that as long as hes alive hes been commanded by Allah to pray and help the poor..how is Prophet Isa pbuh perforiming these obligatory duties in heaven?

These duties he was commanded for were on earth; and he will continue to do this during his life on earth. Obviously if we take this absolutely as you intend then he should have been earning paying money to the poor while he was in the womb and cradle since he was alive then as well!

Once again a series of post devoid of any substance and completely failing to substantiate the wild claims made earlier. If you do not answer the challenge in your next post ( and this request is being repeated several time) then moderators are instructed to delete your posts as you are openly rejecting dialogue, copy-pasting previously debunked material and defying requests to adhere to forum guidelines.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Thanks for your reply brother Ansar inshaAllah i'll reply on Tuesday in detail.

just one question till then When Prophet Isa returns as you believe..He'll still be called a Prophet..so don't you see that as contradicting the verse that says there will be no Prophet after Prophet Muhammed? saw

Also may i add some of those quotes are taken from news letters sent to me and others i found on other forums where they raised the same questions..i must say after reading those articles and discovering that the Ahmadis are not the only ones who believe Prophet Isa is dead it has got me thinking..this belief that hes going to come down defies logic...anyways i only wanted a discussion about this i don't want a fight..I'll be back on Tuesday inshAllah s some of what you have said isnt clear to me.

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Why don't YOU respond to my posts instead of continually evading the arguments, repeating your baseless assumptions, erroneous beliefs and self-refuting propositions? You only have repeated here what was already refuted and conveniently ignored the refutation, which betrays a lack of sincerity in one's commitment to the truth.


Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
Actually, you've only spewed various wild claims, but when they are challenged you quickly shift ground, ignore, and repeat the same fallacious conclusions.

Haven't read much of the Qur'an?
40:78 And indeed We have sent Messengers before you [O Muhammad], of some of them we have related to you their story; and of some We have NOT related to you their story.

The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets like Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl - all of whom are mentioned BY NAME. And yet, their story is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. I challenge you to provide me with their COMPLETE story from the Qur'an and without reference to Ahadith. If you cannot, you have refuted your OWN argument!!

If their story isnt mentioned at all it probably isnt important or binding to do so..thats why Allah only spoke of 25 or so Prophets out of the countless ones that have been sent from time to time to guide humanity...its just important for me to know that they were 1) sent by God 2) that they were righteous pious men..in the end its their message that matters above all else..any other detail that isnt fancy found in the hadeeths is welcome though one has to be cautious those hadeeths havent been borrowed from christian or jewish sources.Also Alhamdullilah ive read much of the Qur'an..thats how i noticed the absense of the widely held belief that Prophet Isa is going to return.

Secondly, what about Prophet Muhammad saws?!? He is the GREATEST prophet and messenger, and yet a coherent and complete understanding of his life can only be obtained with reference to extra-qur'anic sources.

Thank God for the hadeeths..one cannot deny their importance as a guide to the life of the early muslims starting with Prophet Muhammed himself...its not only of historical importance but also is a source of wisdom and inspiration.

Thirdly, the reason why the full story of Prophet 'Isa pbuh's return is not mentioned (and I already have said this though you neglected my response) is because it is also a prophecy. It is part of the prophecies of Muhammad pbuh regarding the end times, in fact one of the Ashrât al-Kubrâ (major signs). The Qur'an is a book of guidance and thus contains the core elements of the Islamic message. Prophecies and practices are provided or elaborated in the Ahâdîth.

the full story isnt mentioned? brother there is no mentionof his return at all in the Qur'an!! not half not quarter nothing..zilch nada nada..go back to my previous posts pls.

you have said im not a complete Muslim before..now you're saying the hadeeths deal with prophecies not pillars of faith..so can one deduce now that..believing this story or not..is not a matter of faith?? and since i dont believe it..how do i possess less faith than you in Islam?..precisely how are my 'pillars of faith' compromised by not believing those prophecies?

Yes because the statement reeks of fallacies. When you say you want the ahâdîth to be in total accordance with the Qur'an, BY DEFAULT you are speaking about the Qur'an as YOU [mis]understand and [mis]interpret it. You simply have not shown a single conflict between the ahâdîth and the Qur'an in this entire thread yet you continue to spout this baseless and fallacious notion. We call this fallacy argumentum ad nauseum.
Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.

I'm ignoring your diversionary tactics on music and adultery, btw.

Oh its not a diversion..its interlinked.. considering the fact that they have one thing in common....Isa's return, the prohibition of music that is as clear and explicit as the prohibition of drinking alcohol, gambling or eating pork , the punishment for adultery by stoning is MISSING from the Qur'an..the in the case adultery is clearly contradictory.

Also may i add that many people are being hindered from embracing Islam because of all these stuff that seem totally illogical.

Many scholars past and present , modern and classicalhave held the opinion that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died

Like the famous Egyptian reformer Muhammad Abduh..in his tafseer al Manar he said this "Tawaffa here means causing to die, as in the obvious and comprehensible significance."

The late Mufti of Al Azhar Shaykh Mahmood Shaltut said regarding this matter

"There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."

(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)


"The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."

Classical Scholars like Imam Malik founder of the earliest school of thought in Islam "While most people believe that Prophet Isa did not die, Imam Malik said that he died."

(Majma al-Bahar, vol. i, p. 286)

Imam Ibn hazm
"Prophet Isa, peace be upon him, was neither killed nor crucified, but Allah caused him to die and then raised him. The Almighty has said: ‘They did not kill him or crucify him’; and ‘I will cause thee to die and exalt thee’; and ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die Thou wert the Watcher over them’ and ‘Allah takes souls (yatawaffa) at the time of death’. Thus there are two kinds of wafat: sleep and death. Jesus in his words ‘When Thou didst cause me to die (falamma tawaffaita-ni)’ was not referring to sleep, but it is correct that by wafat he meant death."

(Mahalli fil-Fiqh, p. 23)


I think we should stop deluding ourselves that only Ahmadis hold this belief..was the Shaykh of Al Azhar an Ahmadi?? Imam Malik? was Muhammad Abduh an Ahmadi?? is there faith lacking brother Ansar? how come i never heard common people or leraned scholars accuse them of heresy before?

I previously wrote:
Let's see if you answered the challenge.


Fails to meet the challenge. This hadith talks about the Day of Judgement. Obviously Prophet Jesus pbuh is going to return and then pass away - you said that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh has said that Jesus has DIED.

Didnt you say in the case of Jesus the word tawaffa used in its various forms means that he ceased to exist on earth and that it DOESNT MEAN DEATH?..how come the Prophet used it to mean DEATH then? unless thats what the verse also means??

Also refer to the above quotes

WRONG. I can give you a verse straight from the Qur'an that says otherwise:
“Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, AND THOSE THAT DIE NOT DURING THEIR SLEEP; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Yes and sleep is called the 'small death' even by many scholars because our souls are held in Allah's hands..how can you be alive if you have no soul? Allah took Prophet Isa's soul..not his BODY. Also refer to the above quotes

Stop repeating blatantly false claims like this. Do I really have to RE-PASTE this article in the thread a FOURTH time?!

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

Translation of Muhammed Asad the famous jewish journalist who embraced Islam and who also wrote the famous book 'The Road to Mecca'

Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth;

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor)...(Surah 2 verse 253)

and this is his commentary on the subject of 'raising ' (rafa'aa)

The verb rafa'ahu (lit., "he raised him" or "elevated him") has always, whenever the act of raf' ("elevating") of human being is attributed to God, the meaning of "honouring" or "exalting". Nowhere in the Qur’an is there any warrant for the popular belief that God has "taken up" Jesus bodily, in his lifetime, into heaven. The expression "God exalted him unto Himself" in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus to the realm of God's special grace - a blessing in which all prophets partake

That's the point! Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a FOLLOWER of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He will not come as a Prophet, and this will be demonstrated by the fact that he will pray behind Imam Mahdi.

He is not a final Prophet, he is penultimate in prophethood and Muhammad pbuh is the final Prophet. Prophet Jesus will return as a follower of Muhammad pbuh; the position of Prophethood is one that is granted and does not necessarily continue throughout one's entire life. If that were the case then why did Muhammad saws become a prophet at the age of 40?

When Prophet Isa returns..hesgoing to return as a normal ordinary man? Allah is going to strip him of his title?? People will just call him Isa ibn Maryam??..It is clearly evident that this contradicts the verse..please don't beat around the bush.

Muslims are also commanded to sacrifice animals in many occasions. Does that mean we are all cruel? Every day you eat animals that were killed before they arrived on your plate. This is frankly the meekest and most inane of your 'arguments'!

I'm fully aware that they are sacrificed through out the length and breadth of this world..however its for our consumption ..thats not cruelty.but according to the hadeeths Prophet Isa peace be upon him is going to kill all the pigs just for the sake of killing....no benefit nothing..and its suppsedly going to be on such a massive scale.
..isnt there a hadeeth that says we are not to kill animals if we're not to benefit from them?


Lastly but not least i leave you all with this..please reflect on it..it will take time no doubt..and it could be scary..disbelieving in something you thought was an undeniable fact..May Allah help you in you journeys to seek the truth ameen.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; messengers before him had indeed passed away." (5:75)
"And Muhammad is only a messenger — messengers have already passed away before him. If, then, he dies or is killed, will you turn back upon your heels?" (3:143)

The first verse explicitly states that all prophets before Prophet Isa had died.Muslims whatever their sect are united on this.The second verse..same words are used to state that ALL PROPHETS before Prophet Muhammed s.a.w died...and we know that no Prophet arose between Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammed peace be upon them...Whenever the words qat khalat in the past tense (passed away) is used on the Qur'an about ANY HUMAN it means physical death

"Such has been the way of Allah with those who have passed away (khalat) before." (33:38)

"…before which other nations have passed away (qad khalat)." (13:30)

"…among nations that have passed away (qad khalat) before them." (46:18)

"Those are a people that have passed away (qad khalat)." (2:134)

there is only two options for Prophets..as stated by Allah in the latter part of the second verse..to be killed or to die naturally..there is no third option of occultation ..freezing in time for 2000 years..

All human 'gods' of the past according to the Qur'an are dead

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (Surah 16:20-21)
And we know from the Qur'an and fromjust observing christians they they do infact worship Prophet Isa peace be upon him

"Certainly they disbelieve who say: ‘Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary’." (Surah 5:72)

Brother please refer to the ayat you mentioned in Surah Al Anbiya verse 98..in CONTEXT..Allah is addressing who specifically?? which mushrikeen? those who take pious righteous men as objects of worship or those who make idols and worship them? Why would Allah punish pious men along with their misguided followers? does that make sense to you?! please read the whole chapter from start to finish Allah is addressing the Quraysh!! the very Quraysh who worshipped more than 360+ gods!


Brother Ansar and brother Ahmed..why do you quote scholars who put by verses like this
“And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

and present them as definite proofs?? you both are salafis and i have a salafi translation of the Qur'aan..by Hilali and Muhsin Khan..

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allâh and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

Why does the scholar not mention that there is no CONSENSUS (ijmaa) on the interpretation of this verse by the scholars?? why is he presenting this as the proof? this is dishonesty in my opinion..

the interpretation that is most correct in my opinion is the interpretation of the scholars who said it means a Jew or a Christians death..yipee I'm not weird anymore!! I'm not alone!! :happy:

"So Peace is on me the day I was born the day that I die and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)(Surah 19 verse 33)

Ameen Peace be upon you our beloved Prophet !!

:w: you all take care and sorry for the late reply i couldnt be botheredto drag myself to the public library...in the end we'll agree to disagree..and sorry if i have unintentionally offended any of you..do forgive me

fiamaanAllah ..May Allah accept your prayers and your fasts ameen.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

If their story isnt mentioned at all it probably isnt important or binding to do so..

Then why is their name mentioned? This clearly refutes your argument. There are many Prophets whose stories are found in the Ahâdîth. Your response here is self-refuting; you complained:

so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

The answer - as you've now subtly admited - is YES! The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl but doesn't inform us of their story - those details are found in the Ahâdîth. The Qur'an does not delve into the details when they do not constitute an integral part of the moral theme being imparted in that passage. The details regarding the second coming of Jesus constitute prophecy and not a component of the Qur'anic guidance, hence it is found along with other prophecies in the Ahâdîth.

thats how i noticed the absense of the widely held belief that Prophet Isa is going to return.

Did you also notice the absence of the widely held practice of 'Îd Al-Fitr? I suppose you are not going to celebrate 'Îd, then.

And the belief that Prophet Îsa is going to return is NOT absent from the Qur'an, you just choose to reinterpret those passages in a way that conflicts with the prophetic narrations. As I said before (in the part of my post that you ignored), you are guilty of circular reasoning, petitio principii:

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
(from my last post)

Thank God for the hadeeths..one cannot deny their importance as a guide to the life of the early muslims starting with Prophet Muhammed himself...its not only of historical importance but also is a source of wisdom and inspiration.

Actually it is of religious importance since we are commanded to follow the way of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and a coherent and complete understanding of his life is only possible with reference to the Ahâdîth.

brother there is no mentionof his return at all in the Qur'an!! not half not quarter nothing..zilch nada nada..go back to my previous posts pls.

Am I going to have to keep repeating myself??

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!
(from my last post)

you have said im not a complete Muslim before..now you're saying the hadeeths deal with prophecies not pillars of faith..so can one deduce now that..believing this story or not..is not a matter of faith??

Wrong. To have true Îmân one must believe in everything the Prophet Muhammad pbuh brought, including legislation, practices, prophecies and that which relates to fundamentals/pillars of faith. The fundamentals are that which constitue the Islamic message of belief and salvation. The prophecies detail one of those fundamentals, namely the day of Judgement.

and since i dont believe it..how do i possess less faith than you in Islam?

Your acceptance of Islam is incomplete because you choose to reject the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and anyone who rejects any of the teachings of the Prophet pbuh has not completed their faith in him as God's messenger. Despite the length of this thread you still have not provided even a SINGLE excuse for rejecting the prophecies of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, not a SINGLE one!

Oh its not a diversion..its interlinked.. considering the fact that they have one thing in common

You've shot yourself in the foot by mentioning practices, laws and prohibitions that aren't in the Qur'an. The ENTIRE religion consists of innumerable practices, laws and prohibitions that aren't mentioned in the Qur'an. I suppose we won't be wishing you a happy 'Îd!

....Isa's return, the prohibition of music that is as clear and explicit as the prohibition of drinking alcohol, gambling or eating pork , the punishment for adultery by stoning is MISSING from the Qur'an..the in the case adultery is clearly contradictory.

Red-herring.

Also may i add that many people are being hindered from embracing Islam because of all these stuff that seem totally illogical.

Rubbish. I challenge you to provide even a single logical contradiction in "all these stuff". You have an excellent track record of failing challenges and providing unsubstantiated claims.

Many scholars past and present , modern and classicalhave held the opinion that Prophet Isa (peace be upon him) died

All the people you mention are either contemporaries with no scholastic standing in the religion, or they are people to whom deviant ideas have been wrongly ascribed. Imâm Mâlik NEVER denied the ascension of Prophet Îsa, in fact he discusses in great detail rulings pertaining to his return!!

Didnt you say in the case of Jesus the word tawaffa used in its various forms means that he ceased to exist on earth and that it DOESNT MEAN DEATH?..how come the Prophet used it to mean DEATH then? unless thats what the verse also means??

No, that's what the word also means (cf. Qur'an 39:42). Note also your claim here has been shown to be a baseless lie. You claimed that the Prophet SAID Jesus died. The Prophet saws didn't say anything about Jesus! He only quoted the ayat containing the words of Jesus.

Yes and sleep is called the 'small death' even by many scholars because our souls are held in Allah's hands

It doesn't matter whether sleep is nicknamed 'small death'; by agreeing with me you have conceded to the fact that the following claim you made was a baseless LIE:

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..

The above assertion is that the verb is used exclusively to mean DEATH in the Qur'an and Ahadith whereas the reality - as you have now admitted - is the opposite!! The verb is used for both SLEEP AND DEATH in ayat 39:42. Hopefully you will maintain some integrity and admit that you were wrong in saying tawaffa was used exclusively for death.

..how can you be alive if you have no soul?

Allah swt takes the soul during sleep and yet we dont say that every sleeping person is dead!

The soul is taken by Allah swt during sleep but its relationship with the body has not been severed.

Translation of Muhammed Asad the famous jewish journalist who embraced Islam and who also wrote the famous book 'The Road to Mecca'

So you ignore all the linguistic analysis I have provided you in Shaykh Khâlid's article, with evidences from the Qur'an and Ahadith, and instead you fallaciously appeal to a contemporary translator and journalist with no formal Islamic education!

and this is his commentary on the subject of 'raising ' (rafa'aa)

Which was already answered by Shaykh Khâlid:

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

When Prophet Isa returns..hesgoing to return as a normal ordinary man? Allah is going to strip him of his title??

I noticed you conveniently ignored my question about the Muhammad pbuh attaining prophethood at 40!
Prophet Jesus pbuh's status with God remains the same. He has the status of a Nabi because he served as a Nabi during part of his lifetime. It is not necessary for one to serve as a Nabi for their entire life to attain this status; in fact the vast majority of the prophets of God were NOT prophets during their entire lifetime. Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a leader. This means that he still has the same lofty status of prophethood with Allah swt but he will not function as a prophet during the specific time following his second coming.

It is clearly evident that this contradicts the verse

Your position is self-refuting. If you choose to reinterpret the quranic verse on Jesus's return in a way that conflicts with the ahadith then you have no argument against someone who reinterprets the verse on 'seal of the prophets', in a way that conflcits with the hadith. In fact, the Qadianis reinterpret both!

I'm fully aware that they are sacrificed through out the length and breadth of this world..however its for our consumption ..thats not cruelty.but according to the hadeeths Prophet Isa peace be upon him is going to kill all the pigs just for the sake of killing....

He is not going to kill pigs for the sake of killing, he is going to kill by the decree of Allah swt.

and its suppsedly going to be on such a massive scale.

It matters how the animals are killed, not how many. If they are killed in a cruel fashion that would be objectionable.

The first verse explicitly states that all prophets before Prophet Isa had died.

No, it says that messengers have passed away before him, it doesn't say all messengers.

Brother please refer to the ayat you mentioned in Surah Al Anbiya verse 98..in CONTEXT..Allah is addressing who specifically?? which mushrikeen?

This is what you REFUSE to do when you quote 16:20-21. Context shows that it is not Christians being discussed here, this surah was revealed in Makkah and it is the Makkan idolaters being discussed here. You may not realize that the 'idols' the makkans worshipped were of human origin:
http://www.islamicboard.com/57660-post14.html
I discussed Al-Lat, Uzza and Manat in the above post.

those who take pious righteous men as objects of worship or those who make idols and worship them? Why would Allah punish pious men along with their misguided followers? does that make sense to you?!

So it seems you had no idea what 'Na'ûdhubillah' meant when I said:

The Qur'an also says that the mushrikeen will go to hell alongside those whom they worshipped besides Allah swt (Qur'an 21:98). If you want to strip verses of their context and apply them absolutely then you are also forced to claim that Prophet 'Isa pbuh is destined for hell (Na'ûdhubillah!)

Why does the scholar not mention that there is no CONSENSUS (ijmaa) on the interpretation of this verse by the scholars?? why is he presenting this as the proof? this is dishonesty in my opinion..

The primary meaning is that given. Other meanings do not hold the same weight when all evidence is examined; from Ma'âriful-Qur'ân:

Reproduced below is a report from Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah [r]:

The Holy Prophet [s] said: The son of Maryam shall definitely reappear as a just ruler. He will kill the Anti-Christ and the swine. He will break the Croos and worship shall be made for Allah alone, the one Lord of all the worlds. Then, Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah said: Read if you wish, the verse of the Qur'an
إِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِه (159) which mentions that not one person from out of the People of the Book will remain without having believed in Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ before his death. Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah then said with stress 'Before the death of 'Îsâ [a]' and he repeated it three times. (Qurtubî)

This Tafsîr (explanation) of the verse under reference stands proved from a highly venerated Companion such as Sayyidnâ Abû Hurairah [r] on the added strength of sound chain of narrators. This report establishes that this verse is related to the coming of Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ [a] close to the Qiyâmah (Doomsday).

As based on this tafsîr, this verse is a conclusive evidence that the death of Sayyidnâ 'Îsâ [a] has not yet come to pass. (Shafy, Ma'âriful-Qur'ân, vol. 2., p. 626)

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

taking the latter part of your post concerning the verse ..why then do scholars DIFFER on it?? you're confusing me brother..the Qur'an i have is a salafi translation and it CLEARLY says the verse has TWO INTERPREATIONS..in other words its not AGREED UPON No consensus ijmaa nothing!..why do you IGNORE this?? i said this like three or four times each time you dodge it and continue to present this verse as the proof and then you want me to believe the verse refers to Prophet Isa's return?

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

taking the latter part of your post concerning the verse ..why then do scholars DIFFER on it?? you're confusing me brother..the Qur'an i have is a salafi translation and it CLEARLY says the verse has TWO INTERPREATIONS..in other words its not AGREED UPON No consensus ijmaa nothing!..why do you IGNORE this?? i said this like three or four times each time you dodge it and continue to present this verse as the proof and then you want me to believe the verse refers to Prophet Isa's return?

:w:

:sl:
First of all the interpretations are NOT conflicting. The primary meaning is that mawtihî refers to Jesus pbuh as established by all the narrations from the sahâba and tabi'în. This is the meaning that has been agreed upon by all the commentators and is mentioned in the Khan-Hilali translation as well before providing the secondary meaning. The secondary meaning does NOT conflict with the primary meaning, hence it can also be accepted. So the Jews at the time of Prophet Jesus pbuh would repent at the time of their death and believe in him but like Pharoah it would be useless for them. This does not contradict the primary meaning given that they will all believe in Jesus before the death of Jesus pbuh.

Secondly, the Khan-Hilali translation is an explanatory translation, NOT a commentary. It briefly mentions one or two interpretations without going into detail about the evidences or what different scholars say and what they have concluded on to be the strongest meaning. Hence, it is foolish to take this brief reference to different opinions in the translation as evidence against consensus.

Thirdly, the Khan-Hilal translation is not free of errors either. For example, verse 68:49 on Prophet Yunus is translated by them as follows:
Had not a Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been [left in the stomach of the fish, but We forgave him], so he was cast off on the naked shore, while he was to be blamed

The parenthetic interpretation provided here is not found in any of the exegetic sources. The fatwâ committee of Shaykh Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî comments:

The inserted text in brackets in the Khan/Hilali translation is not from the Qur'an. It is not a translation. It is inserted commentary. This is one of the major shortcomings of the Khan/Hilali translation.

Though Khan/Hilali do not site their source for this insertion of theirs, it is possible that their insertion is based on a misunderstanding of Ibn Jurayj's interpretation of the verse. [Ibn Jurayj had a very peculiar interpretation of this verse]


[...]The opinion of the majority of commentators - and not that of Ibn Jurayj - is the most likely one and the one that is apparent from the Arabic language.
Also, it is quite obvious that the Khan/Hilali insertion accords neither with the straightforward interpretation of the verse nor with Ibn Jurayj's peculiar view, since according to Ibn Jurayj, there is no shore being referred to in the verse, but instead the gathering of the Hereafter.

More info here. So here the Khan/Hilali translation provides an interpretation that has not been provided by any commentators, let alone having strength on its own! This isn't the only example - the Khan-Hilali has some good points for sure, but it also has some glaring weaknesses that extend beyond just language and format.

For these reasons, you arguments above are utterly baseless.
:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

10: 39. Rather they deny what they cannot understand and when the explanation of it comes to them. Such is the denial of those who preceded them and look at the outcome of the deniers of the truth.

Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaari stated in his Sharhus-Sunnah “If you hear a man who discredits the traditions and does not accept them or he denies something of the information from the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then doubt his Islam for he is a man of the vilest thought and speech. He is in fact discrediting the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and his Sahaabah.” He also stated “Any one of the people of the qiblah is not expelled from the fold of Islam until he has rejected a verse of the Book of Allah the Mighty and Sublime or has rejected something from the traditions of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), or prays to other than Allah or slaughters for other than Allah. If so, it is your duty to expel him from the fold of Islam.”

He further stated “Whosoever rejects a single verse from Allah's Book has rejected the Book in its entirety, and whosoever rejects ahadeeth of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) has certainly rejected the entirety of the traditions and is by that a disbeliever in Allah the Most Great.”


http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...l-burhaan.html

:w:

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

Alhamdullilah i donot reject any verse of the Noble Qur'an :)..and if I'm a nonbeliever accoridng to you..then that means you consider Shaykh Mahmud Shaltut ( Al Azhar Islamic University) Muhammed Asad (Road to Mecca) , Muhammed Ghazali etc etc are nonbelievers....i don't remember there being any fatwas against them when they made those comments or even now from any scholar..? and now all of a sudden there is a fatwa from an err ...internet forumer..ajeeb!

:w:

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Just wanted to say that some scholars (real scholars) e.g Ibn Khaldun, considered that there was no such thing as the Mahdi.

This opinion is discussed (and refuted) in this lecture by Sh Tawfique Chowdhury. He mentions why we can't deny the mahdi in the following lecture
Countdown to the Mahdi (from about 10 minutes in he talks about it):
http://www.alkauthar.org/audiolinks.asp

The main argument against this opinion is that the hadith have reached the level of muttawatir.