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wilberhum
08-14-2006, 10:59 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060814...mediaholocaust

TEHRAN (AFP) - An international contest of cartoons on the Holocaust opened in Tehran in response to the publication in Western papers last September of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.
We staged this fair to explore the limits of freedom Westerners believe in," Masoud Shojai, head of the country's "Iran Cartoon" association and the fair organizer, said.
"They can freely write anything they like about our prophet, but if one raises doubts about the Holocaust he is either fined or sent to prison," he added.
"Though we do not deny that fact that Jews were killed in the (second world) war, why should the Palestinians pay for it?" Shojai told the opening ceremony of the month-long fair in Tehran's Palestine Contemporary Art Museum.
I find this quite odd. “Explore the limits of freedom Westerners believe in”, from a place that limits most of the freedoms that Westerners take for granted.
Westerners will be offended at this but will understand that if you want freedom, you have to take the good with the bad, and go on there way. There will not be death threats, the authors will not have to hide and embassies will not be burnt. And life will go on.
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guyabano
08-15-2006, 11:50 AM
I find this part specially interesting:

"They can freely write anything they like about our prophet, but if one raises doubts about the Holocaust he is either fined or sent to prison,"
So where are the holocaust deniers here in the forum?
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Md Mashud
08-15-2006, 11:55 AM
I am
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-15-2006, 12:02 PM
Salaam,

Good for Iran to do this..
It will show the hyprocritical nature of the west.

I sicnerealy hope the muslim nation all will print the pictures,especially in Lebanon and Palestine as well as in German.

I know i will be sending to my friend in Israel...whom are muslim and tell them to paste on shirts and what not..
Reply

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InToTheRain
08-15-2006, 12:12 PM
Respect to Iran for its portrayal of the Holohoax.
Reply

Joe98
08-15-2006, 12:19 PM
Is the purpose to encourage people to embrace Islam?????

Is it working ????
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sameer
08-15-2006, 12:39 PM
i think its senseless to do this
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Muezzin
08-15-2006, 12:41 PM
This is stupid. Why take revenge on Jewish people? They're not the ones who made and published those cartoons in the first place.
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DaNgErOuS MiNdS
08-15-2006, 12:53 PM
I think it's quite childish and is just asking for trouble.
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Muezzin
08-15-2006, 12:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
From the article:

I don't actually think this event is being conducted as an act of revenge against the Jewish people - rather a device for highlighting the apparent double standards entertained by the 'west' when it comes to free speech.
I see. It's still unnecessarily hurtful to those who lost relatives in the Holocaust, just as the Danish cartoons were needlessly offensive to Muslims. It's the wrong approach in my opinion.
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guyabano
08-15-2006, 01:00 PM
It will not have the desired effect anyway. When these pictures will appear in some magazines in the west, some people will have a good shake of their bellies, and that's it. But the only thing which I'm afraid of, most will start to mock again muslims because of this silly action !

..and besides, the Danish Newspaper which released the pictures made apologies in public, no? So why now looking for troubles again?
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sameer
08-15-2006, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
From the article:

I don't actually think this event is being conducted as an act of revenge against the Jewish people - rather a device for highlighting the apparent double standards entertained by the 'west' when it comes to free speech.
Since when do we need the "west" as an example on how to approach/highlight issues? We should take the good an forbid the bad from the west.....after all thats what the best 'example'/role model (saw) taught us - enjoining Haq and forbidding bartil. So should we allow/engage in bartil to prove a point?- I dont think so.
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sameer
08-15-2006, 01:32 PM
^ i never said that u did...i was just using ure post to drive home my point - so i quoted it.
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ManchesterFolk
08-15-2006, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This is stupid. Why take revenge on Jewish people? They're not the ones who made and published those cartoons in the first place.
Great post.


What is the purpose of this? Go make fun of Danish people, this Holocaust cartoon fair is a perfect example of the Anti-Semitism in the Arab World, not Anti-Zionism.
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ManchesterFolk
08-15-2006, 02:01 PM
Wasn't there a famous case in Germany a few years back where a man was sentenced to prison for writing a book postulating the numbers of the holocaust may have been exagerrated?
Holocaust denial is a crime in the places it happend because they realize all the blood they have on there hands. They have admitted to the atrocious crimes they commited, and they will never let people diminish what happend, or try and deny it, because history does repeat itself.
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KAding
08-15-2006, 02:07 PM
Aha, time to go burn down an embassy ;).

Long live America, the land of the free (at least as far as freedom of speech is concerned) where both holocaust denial and rude mohammed cartoons are protected by the constitution. Iran only makes itself ridiculous like this, since everyone knows you can get thrown in jail for anti-regime comments.
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QuranStudy
08-15-2006, 02:08 PM
I really want to join this fair!
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sameer
08-15-2006, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
I really want to join this fair!
why?
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Geronimo
08-15-2006, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curios
Wasn't there a famous case in Germany a few years back where a man was sentenced to prison for writing a book postulating the numbers of the holocaust may have been exagerrated?
In Austria and I don't agree with this law. I think as long as you aren't advocating violence or inciting a riot you should be allowed to make an ass of yourself.
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QuranStudy
08-15-2006, 02:46 PM
why?
Because the Holocaust was awefully exaggerated.
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Geronimo
08-15-2006, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Because the Holocaust was awefully exaggerated.
The Germans are great bookkeepers, even they said it happened. What about all those pictures showing the camps and mass graves?
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QuranStudy
08-15-2006, 03:10 PM
At first, the Germans said 3 million. Now its six million lol.
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afriend
08-15-2006, 03:11 PM
Yeah...And it was all sorted, I don't see the Jews picking up the pieces and moving back to their former places....
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Geronimo
08-15-2006, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
At first, the Germans said 3 million. Now its six million lol.
even if it's 3 million that's not a small number.
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QuranStudy
08-15-2006, 03:13 PM
even if it's 3 million that's not a small number.
That is what I meant by "awefully exaggerated." They simply doubled the statistics.
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Geronimo
08-15-2006, 03:27 PM
Evidence of the existence of the Holocaust was well documented by the heavily bureaucratic German government itself. It was further well documented by the Allied forces who entered Germany and its associated Axis states towards the end of World War II. Among the evidence produced was film and stills of the existence of prisoner camps, as well as the testimony of those freed when the camps were entered.

The Holocaust was a massive undertaking that lasted for years across several countries, with its own command and control infrastructure. Although the Nazis made attempts to destroy the evidence of the Holocaust when they could see that their defeat was imminent, they left many tons of documents relating to the Holocaust. Due to the extremely rapid collapse of the Nazi forces at the end of the war, attempts to destroy evidence in Germany were for the most part unsuccessful.

After their defeat, many tons of documents were recovered, and many thousands of bodies were found not yet completely decomposed, in mass graves near many concentration camps. The physical evidence and the documentary proof included records of train shipments of Jews to the camps, orders for tons of cyanide and other poisons, and the remaining concentration camp structures. Interviews with survivors completed the picture.

As a result of the records produced, all mainstream historians agree that Holocaust denial is contrary to the facts of history.

Deniers consider one of their stronger arguments to be the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. They claim that the 1940 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,319,359, while the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,713,638. In their view this makes it impossible that 6 million Jews died, even given an extremely high birth rate. They therefore claim that either the figures are wrong, or the Holocaust, meaning the deliberate extermination of millions of Jews, cannot have happened.

However, as is typically the case, the evidence given by Holocaust deniers does not stand up to closer scrutiny. In fact, the 1949 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 11,266,600. Moreover, it revises its estimate of the World Jewish population in 1939 upwards, to 16,643,120. Thus, according to the 1949 World Almanac the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million.

In addition, rather than using more accurate census figures and other records, Holocaust deniers rely on a popular compendium whose methodology of assessment is unknown, and whose estimates have varied significantly. For example, the 1982 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 14,318,000, while the 1990 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 18,169,000, and the 1996 World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 13,451,000. Either 3.7 million Jews appeared unnoticed between 1982 and 1990, and then 4.5 million Jews disappeared equally unnoticed between 1990 and 1996, or the World Almanac is not a particularly reliable source for accurate estimates of worldwide Jewish population.

Finally, Holocaust deniers can be very selective when citing sources; other sources give very different figures for the Jewish population before and after the war. For example, the 1932 American Jewish yearbook estimate the total number of Jews in the world at 15,192,218, of whom 9,418,248 resided in Europe. However, the 1947 yearbook states: "Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time. The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946 as the result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews. In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000."

This selectivity means that Holocaust deniers often ignore the documents produced by the Nazis themselves, who used figures of between 9 and 11 million for the Jewish population of Europe, as evidenced in the notes of the Wannsee Conference. In fact, the Nazis methodically recorded the ongoing reduction of the Jewish population, as in the Korherr Report, which gave the status of the Final Solution through December, 1942:

The total number of Jews in the world in 1937 is generally estimated at around 17 million, thereof more than 10 million in Europe... From 1937 to the beginning of 1943 the number of Jews, partially due to the excess mortality of the Jews in Central and Western Europe, partially due to the evacuations especially in the more strongly populated Eastern Territories which are here counted as off-going, should have diminished by an estimated 4 million. It must not be overlooked in this respect that of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied Eastern territories only a part was recorded, whereas deaths in the rest of European Russia and at the front are not included at all.... On the whole European Jewry should since 1933, i.e. in the first decade of National Socialist German power, have lost almost half of its population.
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Zulkiflim
08-15-2006, 11:50 PM
Salaam,

How many of you think that the danes will print this picture?

They did promise to print them out right..

So we shall see if they will mock our Prophets again
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azim
08-16-2006, 12:26 AM
Asalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakhatu.

So where are the holocaust deniers here in the forum?
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I am
If you're going to make such a big claim brother Mashud, then make sure you know what you're talking about and not just trying to be controversial.

Remember the ayah of the Quran: -

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well Acquainted with what you do. (4:135)

It is pretty clear that the holocaust did happen - if you believe otherwise then you must bring clear evidence to support your claim.

Don't simply say it didn't happen because of a vendetta against Israel or the West - this is to 'distort your witness'.

Subhanallah - keep in mind the importance of justice in Islam.

To everyone who said the following :-

I sicnerealy hope the muslim nation all will print the pictures,especially in Lebanon and Palestine as well as in German.

I know i will be sending to my friend in Israel...whom are muslim and tell them to paste on shirts and what not..
I really want to join this fair!
How many of you think that the danes will print this picture?

They did promise to print them out right..

So we shall see if they will mock our Prophets again
Remember this hadith : -

The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The character and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) are so beautiful and important. It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us. To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption - to honour him we should follow his example.

I feel so embaressed, wallahi, that this fair is even linked to our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we should cut our ties from it and distance ourselves, our Prophet (pbuh) and Islam from it.

Asalamu alaykum.
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Joe98
08-16-2006, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us.

To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption ……we should follow his example.

I have always had an interest in history at one point read about the holocaust – and felt sympathy with the Jews.

Then I saw that they treated some of their Arab citizens unfairly and my sympathy was with the Palestinians.

The response of the Palestinians was to become violent. My sympathy swung back to the Jews.

If the Palestinians and for that matter ALL Muslims made peaceful protests the world sympathy would be with them! If only they had followed the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh)
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Hashim_507
08-16-2006, 02:50 AM
This is totally wrong and its unislamic. Whether you believed or not so many lives was lost in the holacaust, not all of them are jews in the holacaust. The people includes muslims,polish, and other europeans. This would not benefit muslims its going to dregraded us. Shame on Iran!!
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Trumble
08-16-2006, 06:31 AM
I just don't see what Iran is trying to achieve.

A great many non-muslims in the West were distressed that the Danish cartoons caused so much offence to muslims, and did not want to see it repeated. Now far fewer will care whether muslims are offended in future or not... they will be, and that will lead to further anger and violence. The contrast is not good - I don't see Jews across the world burning embassies and demanding "death to Iran" because of this "fair".

By making Holocaust denial a national institution the Iranians are just evoking the contempt of the rest of the world, far beyond that of Israel and the US.
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Woodrow
08-16-2006, 06:42 AM
I'm confused. If this was supposed to be a challange to the Danes. how come it is nothing that the average Dane would take as personaly offensive. If it is to gain anti-Israel support, isn't it targeted at the wrong people.

Propaganda or publicity wise, I do not think this plan was well thought out.

Looks like a lot of noise, that will have no results anywhere in the world.
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Link
08-16-2006, 07:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I am
me 2
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azim
08-16-2006, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
A great many non-muslims in the West were distressed that the Danish cartoons caused so much offence to muslims, and did not want to see it repeated. Now far fewer will care whether muslims are offended in future or not... they will be, and that will lead to further anger and violence. The contrast is not good - I don't see Jews across the world burning embassies and demanding "death to Iran" because of this "fair".
Very true. As Muslims we should keep in mind that we had support from many in the West, especially in Britain.

No law or bill will ever prevent our Prophet (pbuh) from being ridiculed or insulted in the future - only understanding from non-Muslims of our feelings and sensitivities will prevent this happening in the future. A fair insutling those who died in the holocaust is not going to acheive this - infact it will acheive very little.
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azim
08-16-2006, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
If the Palestinians and for that matter ALL Muslims made peaceful protests the world sympathy would be with them! If only they had followed the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh)
I'd just like to mention that many peaceful protests (marches and demonstrations) are held in the Arab world - including Iraq and Palestine. Although sometimes violence is used - I would argue at times this violence is justified and at other times it is uncessary.
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SirZubair
08-16-2006, 11:22 AM
This is ridiculous.

Iran is slowly losing the plot.
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SirZubair
08-16-2006, 11:32 AM
By the way, some of you are hypocrites.

Yes, i said Hypocrites.

i'll say it again, H Y P O C R I T E S.

You cry a river when a newspaper prints something that you find offensive, but you show support for such crap?

Subhan'allah.

Some of you talk big when it comes to 'i love islam...' 'i follow the quran and sunnah...'

Display it once every now and then, it might do you some good.

Aud'billah.

Some of you people make me SICK.
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casimir
08-16-2006, 11:43 AM
I agree fully with your sentiments, Brother Zubair.
I am often disgusted with what my "fellow muslims" post on this forum.
Muhammed pbuh would be highly disappointed.
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SirZubair
08-16-2006, 12:18 PM
What i cannot understand is where some of these people learn their Islam.

Islam has thre essential aspects or levels. They are Islam, Iman and Ihsan.

Islam, In the lexical context, means surrender and submission to the commands of Allah Ta'ala.

Iman (belief) lexically means affirmation and confirmation in the heart.

Ihsan, means goodness, to strive for excellence in achieving piety.


Don't get stuck on one of them, complete all three.

Don't be a muslim by name, be a muslim by character.
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sameer
08-16-2006, 12:39 PM
Prophet Muhammad (saw) retook mecca without blood shed even though they mocked him (the real person), tried to kill/hurt him and his family, not to mention torture the muslims. Didnt the Quarish see his generosity and then came to islam beacuse of it?
So are u guys disappointed that the prophet(saw) didnt kill off or took revenge against these ppl who did more than ridicule him?
I agree that the Prophet (saw) fought wars with ppl on different tribes, I dont thin he fought anywars for anyone calling him names etc. While we all get angry about the cartoons about him, we have to think out if our actions in retaliation would hurt the Ummah in the long run or it would benefit it.
How about channel ure efforts into educatin ppl about why we love/emulate the prophet (saw) instead. Insha ALlah they may take shahada..... - would this trade fair encourage ppl to accept islam? or to understand the type of man the prophet(saw) was?

Sahih Bukhari
Volumn 003, Book 049, Hadith Number 862.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara bin 'Azib : When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the Prophet and his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.

Look at the wisdom of the prophet (saw), in the interest of peace and to gain the objective, he didnt sign as "messenger of Allah".
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aamirsaab
08-16-2006, 12:43 PM
:sl:
The world is full of retards.

I thank Allah I am not a retard. Ameen.
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SirZubair
08-16-2006, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Link
me 2
You are so predictable..

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
The world is full of retards.

I thank Allah I am not a retard. Ameen.
Unfortunetly, alot of them either converting to islam or are born-muslims.. :(
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Ninth_Scribe
08-16-2006, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
An international contest of cartoons on the Holocaust opened in Tehran in response to the publication in Western papers last September of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

I find this quite odd. “Explore the limits of freedom Westerners believe in”, from a place that limits most of the freedoms that Westerners take for granted.
He's such a child! If I have to hear these children shout "Well... he started it" one more time, I'm going to send them all to their rooms!

Ninth Scribe
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SASB
08-16-2006, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This is stupid. Why take revenge on Jewish people? They're not the ones who made and published those cartoons in the first place.
Completely agree!!!
whats done is done, why should we lower our standards and stoop to their level, by making theese cartoons, we have already experienced how horrible it is to have ur religon degraded like that why make someone else go through what we had to.
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QuranStudy
08-16-2006, 04:23 PM
This is stupid. Why take revenge on Jewish people? They're not the ones who made and published those cartoons in the first place.
Because denying the Holocaust in most European countries is such an offence that it is illegal. What can be a better topic of humiliation?
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abdmez
08-16-2006, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
I never said they were doing the right thing, I was just clarifying that this 'attack' is not primally aimed at Jewish people. :rolleyes:
An Holocaust cartoon fest isn't an attack on the Jewish people... :giggling: :uhwhat
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Keltoi
08-16-2006, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Because denying the Holocaust in most European countries is such an offence that it is illegal. What can be a better topic of humiliation?
I find it strange that such an obvious use of free-speech would be punishable by prison time. However, I can also understand why these governments take the issue so seriously. Germany has taken responsibility for Hitler's crimes, and to show how seriously they take this responsibility, they will not allow their citizens to deny such an event took place.
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Keltoi
08-16-2006, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Re-read what I wrote, pay attention when you get to the part in bold <sigh>:

"I never said they were doing the right thing, I was just clarifying that this 'attack' is not primally aimed at Jewish people."
If it isn't aimed at Jewish people, a collection of cartoons about the Holocaust, who exactly is this aimed at?
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Keltoi
08-16-2006, 04:37 PM
I just read post 10. The point remains the same. Why make cartoons about the Holocaust if your intention is to show a double standard in free-speech? In the context of the Danish cartoons and free-speech, this might have some validity, if one doesn't realize that cartoons about the Holocaust serve the same purpose as the Danish cartoons. To cause insult.
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Kidman
08-16-2006, 05:01 PM
Just this last weekend, i got into a confrontations with some Christians. They were basically in downtown Tempe... and preaching Christianity, which i had no problem with, but when i walked by one gave me a lil pamphlet thing, which i had no problem with, except that the pamphlet said "Who Is Allaah" and they had another that said "The Truth About the Koran" and they were passing these out.

Ya, i almost got into a huge fight with them... besides that, should i blame the government for these people who do this, or should i blame the people themselves?

In this article it said that the money that paid the winners didn't come from the Government, i think this was just ignorant people who set it up, just like the people on the street that i saw...

anyways, I didn't read the full story to see, but just thought i'd add my experience where ignorant people would promote other religions to be bad to make theirs look better.

Kidman
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abdmez
08-16-2006, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Just this last weekend, i got into a confrontations with some Christians. They were basically in downtown Tempe... and preaching Christianity, which i had no problem with, but when i walked by one gave me a lil pamphlet thing, which i had no problem with, except that the pamphlet said "Who Is Allaah" and they had another that said "The Truth About the Koran" and they were passing these out.

Ya, i almost got into a huge fight with them... besides that, should i blame the government for these people who do this, or should i blame the people themselves?

In this article it said that the money that paid the winners didn't come from the Government, i think this was just ignorant people who set it up, just like the people on the street that i saw...

anyways, I didn't read the full story to see, but just thought i'd add my experience where ignorant people would promote other religions to be bad to make theirs look better.

Kidman
It was a goverment run newspaper that set it up in Iran.

It was a private Christian organiztion that set it up in Tempe.

Big difference. No comparison.
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Ninth_Scribe
08-16-2006, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
Just this last weekend, i got into a confrontations with some Christians. They were basically in downtown Tempe... and preaching Christianity, which i had no problem with, but when i walked by one gave me a lil pamphlet thing, which i had no problem with, except that the pamphlet said "Who Is Allaah" and they had another that said "The Truth About the Koran" and they were passing these out.

Ya, i almost got into a huge fight with them... besides that, should i blame the government for these people who do this, or should i blame the people themselves?

In this article it said that the money that paid the winners didn't come from the Government, i think this was just ignorant people who set it up, just like the people on the street that i saw...

anyways, I didn't read the full story to see, but just thought i'd add my experience where ignorant people would promote other religions to be bad to make theirs look better.

Kidman
Ordinary people can plead ignorance. Leaders cannot.

I ignore people when I have reason to believe they speak or act out of ignorance. I am not that forgiving with priests, popes, soldiers, military commanders or presidents. I expect alot more from them. Thus far, I am deeply disappointed in them all. They behave like children fighting over the school-yard sandbox. It's disgraceful behavior. Ghetto hoodies have more class.

Ninth Scribe
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-16-2006, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim

Remember this hadith : -

The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The character and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) are so beautiful and important. It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us. To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption - to honour him we should follow his example.

I feel so embaressed, wallahi, that this fair is even linked to our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we should cut our ties from it and distance ourselves, our Prophet (pbuh) and Islam from it.

Asalamu alaykum.
Beautifully said. Mashaa'Allah.

:w:
Reply

therebbe
08-16-2006, 06:11 PM
So then according to that hadith, Iran is in clear violation of Islamic law correct? Yet I keep hearing that Iran is actually closest to Shariah Law. Does Shariah law include following Muhammad's words in Hadith's? Since Iran is in such clear violation?
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cihad
08-16-2006, 07:00 PM
innocent people died

and now you want to draw cartoons



how utterly childish!
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azim
08-16-2006, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
So then according to that hadith, Iran is in clear violation of Islamic law correct?
If it is Iran holding this fair, then yes, they are.

Yet I keep hearing that Iran is actually closest to Shariah Law.
The hadith that was posted IS Shariah Law. Shariah is nothing but the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah.

How close or how far Iran is to these teachings is easy to find, compare their actions to those of Muhammad (pbuh) and what is taught in the Quran.

My opinion - there is no country on the face of this earth atm that is running its country Islamically. I also believe that some Western goverments that have the welfare state are closer to shariah law then Iran and Saudi Arabia. The Welfare State being a concept first introduced by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and then perfected by his followers.

Does Shariah law include following Muhammad's words in Hadith's? Since Iran is in such clear violation?
Yes, the Shariah does include Muhammad (pbuh) words and actions.

Sadly, Islamic countries are not very Islamic these days.
Reply

therebbe
08-16-2006, 08:06 PM
If it is Iran holding this fair, then yes, they are.
Good to know that Iran does not represent Islamic law.

some Western goverments that have the welfare state are closer to shariah law then Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Interesting.


Overall a very good and informative post. Thank you.
Reply

brainiac
08-16-2006, 08:25 PM
How funny would it be if Jews all over the world massed in the streets chanting 'Death to Iran' and began burning down Iranian embassies and businesses ? Sort of like another group of people we know do when they feel slighted.
Reply

Kidman
08-16-2006, 09:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
How funny would it be if Jews all over the world massed in the streets chanting 'Death to Iran' and began burning down Iranian embassies and businesses ? Sort of like another group of people we know do when they feel slighted.
They wouldn't do that... even the Jews in Iran are treated with much respect and like the president. The President never said that the holocaust never happened, he just said it has been overeggagerated.

Kidman
Reply

therebbe
08-16-2006, 09:08 PM
even the Jews in Iran are treated with much respect
The Muslims in Denmark have the freedom to worship and practice Islam. Does that mean they are treated with respect? Of course not.

In Iran the shuls where Jews pray have had hate crimes commited against them, and they have a state news paper making a mockery of an event where millions of there fellow jews died.

There treated with basicaly no respect!
Reply

guyabano
08-16-2006, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
By the way, some of you are hypocrites.

Yes, i said Hypocrites.

i'll say it again, H Y P O C R I T E S.

You cry a river when a newspaper prints something that you find offensive, but you show support for such crap?

Subhan'allah.

Some of you talk big when it comes to 'i love islam...' 'i follow the quran and sunnah...'

Display it once every now and then, it might do you some good.

Aud'billah.

Some of you people make me SICK.

Honestly, I cannot blame them, as many here on the forum seem to be kids (or at least think like kids) or teenies with a distort ideology.
Reply

Curious girl2
08-16-2006, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I am
Then I feel sorry for you, I really do.

My Grandfather was in the army when Auschwitz was liberated. What he saw there haunted him for the rest of his life.

Whilever people deny that great tragedies such as the holocaust happened, the human race will make no progress towards living in peace.

Peace
CG
Reply

S_87
08-16-2006, 10:24 PM
:sl:

two wrongs dont make a right... they are just relighting fire :rolleyes:
Reply

KAding
08-16-2006, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
How funny would it be if Jews all over the world massed in the streets chanting 'Death to Iran' and began burning down Iranian embassies and businesses ? Sort of like another group of people we know do when they feel slighted.
It would of course be perfectly understandable ;). Not that I would condone it of course, but, hey, you reap what you sow!
Reply

brainiac
08-16-2006, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kidman
They wouldn't do that... even the Jews in Iran are treated with much respect and like the president. The President never said that the holocaust never happened, he just said it has been overeggagerated.

Kidman


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...69283105BF.htm

Ahmadinejad: Holocaust a myth
Wednesday 14 December 2005, 15:53 Makka Time, 12:53 GMT
Ahmadinejad has caused outrage in Washington and Jerusalem

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, has again caused international outcry by repeating his view that the Holocaust was a myth.

In a speech broadcast live on state television on Wednesday, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the southern city of Zahedan: "They have fabricated a legend under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves.

"If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream."

Responding to the comments, Israel urged the international community to "open its eyes" to the Iranian regime and its nuclear programme.

Mark Regev, spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, said: "We hope these extremist comments by the Iranian president will make the international community open its eyes and abandon any illusions about this regime."

"The comments are wholly unacceptable and we condemn them unreservedly"

Douglas Alexander,
UK minister for Europe

The European Union also added its condemnation, with Douglas Alexander, Britain's minister for Europe, saying the comments had no place in international debate.

"The comments are wholly unacceptable and we condemn them unreservedly. They have no place in civilised political debate," said Alexander, whose country currently holds the EU presidency.

Speaking in Strasbourg to the applause of European parliamentarians, he said that "the presidency has been unequivocal in its condemnation of the comments attributed to President Ahmadinejad of Iran".

'Off the map'

The Iranian leader's comments come days after his inflammatory statements that the state of Israel should be moved to Europe.

The president, who said in October that Israel must be "wiped off the map", said last week that if Germany and Austria believed that Jews were massacred during the second world war, a state of Israel should be established on their soil.

He was being interviewed on Al-Alam, an Iranian state satellite channel while in Makka, Saudi Arabia, where he was attending a summit of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference.

The remarks drew criticism from the UN, the UK and Germany, among others.

Ahmadinejad was elected as successor to Mohammed Khatami in June, and has caused concern for some in the West with his hardline rhetoric.

Aljazeera + Agencies



I think we've done this dance before. The guy DID deny the holocaust happened, and he IS a nut-case. And yes, Al Jazeera DID get the translation correct.
Reply

brainiac
08-16-2006, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
It would of course be perfectly understandable ;). Not that I would condone it of course, but, hey, you reap what you sow!


What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.
Reply

azim
08-17-2006, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.
Meaning... I have issues with proverbs and archaic sayings. I think many born to immigrant parents do, I always come across random sayings that mean nothing to me.
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
Meaning... I have issues with proverbs and archaic sayings. I think many born to immigrant parents do, I always come across random sayings that mean nothing to me.
lol, don't worry I feel the same way.
Reply

SirZubair
08-17-2006, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
I think we've done this dance before. The guy DID deny the holocaust happened, and he IS a nut-case. And yes, Al Jazeera DID get the translation correct.
Refer to these posts :

http://www.islamicboard.com/376732-post3.html

And

http://www.islamicboard.com/378915-post9.html

:)
Reply

brainiac
08-17-2006, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim
Meaning... I have issues with proverbs and archaic sayings. I think many born to immigrant parents do, I always come across random sayings that mean nothing to me.


The meaning is if Muslims took to the streets to protest the Muhammed cartoons, why shouldn't the Jews do the same ? They won't, of course, but it would be quite a change of pace.
Reply

S_87
08-17-2006, 10:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
The meaning is if Muslims took to the streets to protest the Muhammed cartoons, why shouldn't the Jews do the same ? They won't, of course, but it would be quite a change of pace.
Hey

if they wanted to thats fine, however insulting a Prophet is different. the jews AND christians SHOULD protest when Moses and Jesus peace be upon them both are insulted, and you know what? id join them in that too....
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 01:24 PM
Salaam,

all that can be said is,let us see what the west will do?

will they print the pictures or wont they?

as they say it is press freedom,then i hope that some press will print out the pictures and we will see the reaction..

If any papers print them that is,if they dont then it is clear some FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IF HIGHER THAN OTHERS.
The danes said they wanted to test the Freedom of expression or to remove the fear of insulting the Prophet.
so now Iran is doign the same,to make a joke out of the holocaust to get people to NOT BE FEARFUL to contradict the obvious unscietific truth of the holocaust.

To make the people to question and doubt the veracity of the holocaust as portrayed by the west.but is it allowed? Or will you be palced in jail??
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 01:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Holocaust denial is a crime in the places it happend because they realize all the blood they have on there hands. They have admitted to the atrocious crimes they commited, and they will never let people diminish what happend, or try and deny it, because history does repeat itself.

Salaam,

Isnt it funny,suposedly it is a crime and they dont want people to forget their wrong doing but then they ask for firgiveness by sending the people to a foregn land and give them arms to murder the residents of that land

wow so in short german and the west have commited 2 massacare...

Are the german and the west in denial of the wrong doing done to the palestinians??

Or are they rpactising selective amnesia?
Or is it becasue,they ahrmed the jews and not arabs so it dont matter?

thus if that is the way the west must massacare arabs by the million then will arabs and muslims get jsutice?
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 01:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
How funny would it be if Jews all over the world massed in the streets chanting 'Death to Iran' and began burning down Iranian embassies and businesses ? Sort of like another group of people we know do when they feel slighted.
Salaam,

do tehy need to when their goverment have that intetion with suport of the US ?

you can read it on any western adn isrealis media how evil the Iranian are...ohh and syria too...
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 01:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
The Muslims in Denmark have the freedom to worship and practice Islam. Does that mean they are treated with respect? Of course not.

In Iran the shuls where Jews pray have had hate crimes commited against them, and they have a state news paper making a mockery of an event where millions of there fellow jews died.

There treated with basicaly no respect!

salaam,

If that is the case why dont they paerform aliyah??
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 01:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
I have always had an interest in history at one point read about the holocaust – and felt sympathy with the Jews.

Then I saw that they treated some of their Arab citizens unfairly and my sympathy was with the Palestinians.

The response of the Palestinians was to become violent. My sympathy swung back to the Jews.

If the Palestinians and for that matter ALL Muslims made peaceful protests the world sympathy would be with them! If only they had followed the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh)

Salaam,

Well trully your word that muslim should just make peaceful protest is trully enlightening.

we should just take placards and say,no to bombs and no to war and so on..Pls do nto bombs us ,do not shoot our chidlren,do not dishonour our relign..

and what has that achieved?

Did they stopped the bombing?
No
did they stop the shooting?
No
Did they stop the insults?
NO

as for the danes,when the peaceful protest erupted,did the danes PM even talked to the muslim ambassodors?
NO
Did he even said conciliatory gestures?
No
Did he do anythign before the sitaution become bad?
No

so it seems that the only message they can get acroos is when they are threatned or ahrmed,till then they will just say it is our way..

so let me sak you,where does peaceful protest help? when the other side stopped listening?
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 01:53 PM
as for the danes,when the peaceful protest erupted,did the danes PM even talked to the muslim ambassodors?
Why should the Danish Goverment have spoken to ambassadors? It was not the Danish goverment that published the cartoon, it was a Danish newspaper.

That is like saying that every Muslim should have apologized for 9/11 because some Muslims did it. Your comments are highly contradicting and outrageous.

If that is the case why dont they paerform aliyah??
In the coutry of Iran it is illegal for jews to perfom Aliyah. If they tried it would be against the law. Believe me after the gross human rights violations in Iran I think they probably should. But I guess they are fearful for being killed.

so now Iran is doign the same,to make a joke out of the holocaust to get people to NOT BE FEARFUL to contradict the obvious unscietific truth of the holocaust.
The 'obvious'?

You speak as if you have fact backing up your statements when you have no such facts whatsoever.

You have propaganda.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azim

To everyone who said the following :-


Remember this hadith : -

The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The character and teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) are so beautiful and important. It's disgusting that we think we can defend our beloved while abandoning all that he taught us. To honour Muhammad (pbuh) we shouldn't insult others, or hurt others, or seek to cause disruption - to honour him we should follow his example.

I feel so embaressed, wallahi, that this fair is even linked to our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we should cut our ties from it and distance ourselves, our Prophet (pbuh) and Islam from it.

Asalamu alaykum.
Salaam,

alhamdulilah that you have read the aprt that makes you happy or what i would sall MODERATES MUSLIM,,who take the view of peace,peace wihout learnign of the war and the laws of war in Islam.


Now let me refrsh you about somthing in Islam..

we are accordied to be civil to those of us but let me ask you this.

when in the time of Jahiliyah,when the arabs worshipped stones and statues,the Prophet muhammad saw called them wrong does and asked them to turn aways from idolatry...

was the action of the prophet wrong?
Was he rude?
was he insolent for calling them to abandon falsehood and idolatry?

For me i would say no,,but for you given that you only know of that verse it would seem if you exist in that time you would surely be ones whom would have stoned the Prophet Muhammad saw.

The Prophet always mainted to do right and made ONE TRUE CALL always and never bend knee to falsehood and intoletance and oppresion.

the Propeht always taught and made clear his views on what is right and what is wrong.

And yet here you are saying that Iran should not correct the wrong idealogy of the western "FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION",that we should not stoop so low.

But is that what we are doign or as the west say by printing the caricatures "to teach muslim abour freedom of expression"..
So arent we then teaching them about their dishonesty and ambiguity?

So the call is simple,freedom of expression,,whose freedom and whose expression..
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Why should the Danish Goverment have spoken to ambassadors? It was not the Danish goverment that published the cartoon, it was a Danish newspaper.

That is like saying that every Muslim should have apologized for 9/11 because some Muslims did it. Your comments are highly contradicting and outrageous.



In the coutry of Iran it is illegal for jews to perfom Aliyah. If they tried it would be against the law. Believe me after the gross human rights violations in Iran I think they probably should. But I guess they are fearful for being killed.


The 'obvious'?

You speak as if you have fact backing up your statements when you have no such facts whatsoever.

You have propaganda.

Salaam

so the danish Pm have no say on the matter?

Nor does he said anythign when asked by 11(is that right) ambassodors from muslim coutnries?
He did not only try to say HIS STANDPOINT but rebuffed a meeting with them..

Did he even listen to the ambassodors? NO
Did he listen to his own danes muslim? No
what did he do,,,,He said nothing and did nothing..

It was ONLY after the news was sentastionalized did he did do something,that it was the papers own fault and not the goveremnt...
And this was his stance all the way,but the fact is HE WAS FORCED TO ACTION ONLY AFTER ..NOt before,,he did not ake a pro active approach to listen to the grievances of his own danes,,albeit muslim,he did not even listen to the AMBASSADORS,people who represent COUTNRIES,,,11 of them.//

As for SEP 11,now take a look at this,dont the US govermetn as a whole and the US citizens as a whole genrealize that since most of the "hijackers" are saudi ,then all saudi are wrong?
Does not the US gov and Isreal bomb civllion JUST EBCASEU THEY ARE THERE?
So genealisation goes both way,but for this case,the AMBASSAODORS WENT TO ASK FOR The COUTNRIES LEADERS OPINION and FEEDBACK...

Unless of course you are saying that the 11 ambassoadors should just ahve talked to a paper directly,,,

And as for aliyah,pray tell,how can it be illegal IF YOU ARE NEVER GOIDN BACK TO IRAN?News has been reported many times that Jews in iran can travel anywhere they like and that Jews are given direct citizenship when they touch on Israel..

so why do they fear Iran? Once they leave it they will never go back..

Of course that is not the case with most Jews who hold dual citenship,most dotn ever relinquish their other citizenship..right...


As for the word "OBVIOUS" truth is simple....how many jews were massacared and to what extent was the torture?
How many jews betrayed their own so that they can be saved?

these are not propaganda but unbased truth,you do not know how many have died...1 million,2 million,,,500 000 thousand?...any number is given...and any number is accepted becasue NO ONE KNOWS..

Unless of course youc an come up with all the supposedly 6 million names of jews who died in the holocasut?and in which camp and their biodata...
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I'm confused. If this was supposed to be a challange to the Danes. how come it is nothing that the average Dane would take as personaly offensive. If it is to gain anti-Israel support, isn't it targeted at the wrong people.

Propaganda or publicity wise, I do not think this plan was well thought out.

Looks like a lot of noise, that will have no results anywhere in the world.
Salaam,

the itnention of the drawing is to mock the western freedom of expression.

Not to any one coutnry,but the danes did use it ie freedom of expressiona nd was supoprted by many of the western countries.

with the same reasoning...

so within the same context is it not right to do this?

Freedom of expression,.,your is important or mine
If you are offedned,,why..should i care?
If i am offedned,should you care?
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 04:04 PM
so the danish Pm have no say on the matter?
No I do not think you understand very clearly. Denmark is a democracy. Listen, unlike many of the countries you support, in Denmark the government does not run around silencing the press and does not restrict freedom of speech. Protest the newspaper company, not the government.

Nor does he said anythign when asked by 11(is that right) ambassodors from muslim coutnries?
He did not only try to say HIS STANDPOINT but rebuffed a meeting with them..
Why should he have to? It was not Denmarks government that published this cartoon.

If some newspaper in Saudi Arabia said made a cartoon about the prophet Moses, who should we blame? The Government of Saudi Arabia who has no ties to the paper, or the newspaper company and the editor who published it?

Try thinking.


As for SEP 11,now take a look at this,dont the US govermetn as a whole and the US citizens as a whole genrealize that since most of the "hijackers" are saudi ,then all saudi are wrong?

Wow! Thank you for making my point!

All the hijackers were Saudi's but that does not mean every person in Saudi Arabia is a hujacker or is evil.

All the cartoon artists were Danes, but that does not mean the goverment or all the peope are like the artists.

In Iran is was a GOVERNMENT controlled newspaper.


Does not the US gov and Isreal bomb civllion JUST EBCASEU THEY ARE THERE?
The US and Israeli governments do not bomb civilians because they are there. Does Hamas suicide bomb in civilian areas because the civilians are there though? Please awnser that.

And as for aliyah,pray tell,how can it be illegal IF YOU ARE NEVER GOIDN BACK TO IRAN?News has been reported many times that Jews in iran can travel anywhere they like and that Jews are given direct citizenship when they touch on Israel..
:giggling:

Why just lie about something?

Jews have passport restrictions in Iran that make it so you have to go through a 1 year interview process before you leave the country if your Jewish. How about reading there laws before speaking!!!! :uhwhat

Iranian citizens are also not aloud to travel to Israel! If a Jew wanted to go to Israel from Iran, he would have to sneak out of the country and somehow get there with a restricted passport. If they are caught they are executed. Please go read Iranian law before you start posting about this again. Your lack of knwoledge on this subject is apparent. :thankyou:

Of course that is not the case with most Jews who hold dual citenship,most dotn ever relinquish their other citizenship..right...
It is against the law in Iran for a Jew to hold dual citizenship.

these are not propaganda but unbased truth,you do not know how many have died...1 million,2 million,,,500 000 thousand?...any number is given...and any number is accepted becasue NO ONE KNOWS..
Actually. There is evidence. And anyone who looks at this evidence knows. The Germans kept very good records of EVERYONE they killed and why they killed them. Its sad when one has such a hatred for a people that they go at all lengths to try and discredit them, when in fact they make themselves look so ignorant.

Here is how you should look at.

Everytime you try and revision the numbers of the Holocaust off the top of your head to any sane person it is like you try to prove to us that cows in reality fly around and have wings that are invisible.

There is so much proof that the Holocaust occured and 6 million Jews died that it is utterly ridiculous that anyone would try and deny it. the only people who really deny it are supports of Hitler and Socialists who are apologists for the Nazi's in general.

When you revision the numbers your downplaying the amount of Muslims who might have died in it as well.

Your case is very sad.

Go read. :giggling:

I cannot take this טמבל :thankyou:
Reply

Geronimo
08-17-2006, 04:58 PM
Like other religious minorities in Iran, Jews suffer from officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. They may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.

The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support Zionism and the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press. Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.

The legal system also discriminates against religious minorities who receive lower awards than Muslims in injury and death lawsuits and incur heavier punishments. In 2002, the law was passed that made the amount of "blood money" (diyeh) paid by a perpetrator for killing or wounding a Christian, Jew, or Zoroastrian man the same as it would be for killing or wounding a Muslim.


Former president Khatami visits a Tehran Jewish center.With some exceptions, there is little restriction of or interference with the Jewish religious practice; however, education of Jewish children has become more difficult in recent years. The Iranian government reportedly allows Hebrew instruction, recognizing that it is necessary for Jewish religious practice. However, it strongly discourages the distribution of Hebrew texts, in practice making it difficult to teach the language. Moreover, the Iranian government has required that several Jewish schools remain open on Saturdays, the Jewish Sabbath, in conformity with the schedule of other schools in the school system. Since working or attending school on the Sabbath violates Jewish law, this requirement has made it impossible for observant Jews both to attend school and adhere to a fundamental tenet of their religion.

Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens. With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jewish persons to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Iranian government is concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time.

In 2000, 10 of 13 Jews arrested in 1999 were convicted on charges of illegal contact with Israel, conspiracy to form an illegal organization, and recruiting agents. Along with 2 Muslim defendants, the 10 Jews received prison sentences ranging from 4 to 13 years. An appeals court subsequently overturned the convictions for forming an illegal organization and recruiting agents, but it upheld the convictions for illegal contacts with Israel with reduced sentences. One of the 10 was released in February 2001 and another in January 2002, both upon completion of their prison terms. Three additional prisoners were released before the end of their sentences in October 2002. In April 2003, it was announced that the last five were to be released. It is not clear if the eight who were released before the completion of their sentences were fully pardoned or were released provisionally. Even though anti-Semitic acts are rare in Iran, the trial led to the rising of tensions against the Jewish community. During and shortly after the trial, Jewish businesses in Tehran and Shiraz were targets of vandalism and boycotts, and Jewish persons reportedly have suffered personal harassment and intimidation.

Contacts with Jews outside Iran
Jews in Iran are not allowed to communicate with Jewish groups outside of Iran unless the group is opposed to the existence of Israel, such as Neturei Karta. Limited cultural contacts are also allowed, such as the March 2006 Jewish folk dance festival in Russia, in which a female team from Iran participated.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Like other religious minorities in Iran, Jews suffer from officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. They may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.

The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support Zionism and the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press. Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.

The legal system also discriminates against religious minorities who receive lower awards than Muslims in injury and death lawsuits and incur heavier punishments. In 2002, the law was passed that made the amount of "blood money" (diyeh) paid by a perpetrator for killing or wounding a Christian, Jew, or Zoroastrian man the same as it would be for killing or wounding a Muslim.


Former president Khatami visits a Tehran Jewish center.With some exceptions, there is little restriction of or interference with the Jewish religious practice; however, education of Jewish children has become more difficult in recent years. The Iranian government reportedly allows Hebrew instruction, recognizing that it is necessary for Jewish religious practice. However, it strongly discourages the distribution of Hebrew texts, in practice making it difficult to teach the language. Moreover, the Iranian government has required that several Jewish schools remain open on Saturdays, the Jewish Sabbath, in conformity with the schedule of other schools in the school system. Since working or attending school on the Sabbath violates Jewish law, this requirement has made it impossible for observant Jews both to attend school and adhere to a fundamental tenet of their religion.

Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens. With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jewish persons to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Iranian government is concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time.

In 2000, 10 of 13 Jews arrested in 1999 were convicted on charges of illegal contact with Israel, conspiracy to form an illegal organization, and recruiting agents. Along with 2 Muslim defendants, the 10 Jews received prison sentences ranging from 4 to 13 years. An appeals court subsequently overturned the convictions for forming an illegal organization and recruiting agents, but it upheld the convictions for illegal contacts with Israel with reduced sentences. One of the 10 was released in February 2001 and another in January 2002, both upon completion of their prison terms. Three additional prisoners were released before the end of their sentences in October 2002. In April 2003, it was announced that the last five were to be released. It is not clear if the eight who were released before the completion of their sentences were fully pardoned or were released provisionally. Even though anti-Semitic acts are rare in Iran, the trial led to the rising of tensions against the Jewish community. During and shortly after the trial, Jewish businesses in Tehran and Shiraz were targets of vandalism and boycotts, and Jewish persons reportedly have suffered personal harassment and intimidation.

Contacts with Jews outside Iran
Jews in Iran are not allowed to communicate with Jewish groups outside of Iran unless the group is opposed to the existence of Israel, such as Neturei Karta. Limited cultural contacts are also allowed, such as the March 2006 Jewish folk dance festival in Russia, in which a female team from Iran participated.
Salaam,

all this begs the question,if the jews are not "happy" then why dont they just leave?

If the jews are allowed instant citizenship in Isreal once they step on the land why dotn they go there?

can Iran monitor each and every jews who leaves Iran?

your article speak much about the harm but speak not about the action by the jews.the more it seems that the jews either tolerate the abuse or your artcile is a basic forgery or a lie.

so which is it?

If Iran is so anti judaic,then why dont the jews leave iran?
Unless you are saying Iran is forcing the jews to stay in Iran?
Reply

Geronimo
08-17-2006, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

all this begs the question,if the jews are not "happy" then why dont they just leave?

If the jews are allowed instant citizenship in Isreal once they step on the land why dotn they go there?

can Iran monitor each and every jews who leaves Iran?

your article speak much about the harm but speak not about the action by the jews.the more it seems that the jews either tolerate the abuse or your artcile is a basic forgery or a lie.

so which is it?

If Iran is so anti judaic,then why dont the jews leave iran?
Unless you are saying Iran is forcing the jews to stay in Iran?
Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens. With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jewish persons to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Iranian government is concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time

So essentially they make it virtually impossible to leave. So now you know and knowing is half the battle GI JOE!
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
No I do not think you understand very clearly. Denmark is a democracy. Listen, unlike many of the countries you support, in Denmark the government does not run around silencing the press and does not restrict freedom of speech. Protest the newspaper company, not the government.

[PIE]Salaam,

Umm,so denamrk is a democracy,so why does it practise self censorship?no article on the holocasut or caricatures of other religon?
as for you,may i ask,when the 2 isrealis sodleirs were taken hostage,why kill all lebanese when they are not at fault why the mass killing?
[/PIE]

Why should he have to? It was not Denmarks government that published this cartoon.

If some newspaper in Saudi Arabia said made a cartoon about the prophet Moses, who should we blame? The Government of Saudi Arabia who has no ties to the paper, or the newspaper company and the editor who published it?

Try thinking.

[PIE]Ohh my,the sauid govermetn make a picture of a propeht,do you understand that is idolatry and haram?we wont do it,but the danes did knowing it is taboo..so what do you say??
the denamrk goverment did not print the caricature but when approached by his own people and by 11 ambassodors he rejected both council?
Why?
dont the people matter?

[/PIE]





Wow! Thank you for making my point!

All the hijackers were Saudi's but that does not mean every person in Saudi Arabia is a hujacker or is evil.

All the cartoon artists were Danes, but that does not mean the goverment or all the peope are like the artists.


[PIE]yopur point?? was? i think you should read my word again.
[/PIE]


In Iran is was a GOVERNMENT controlled newspaper.

[PIE]Of course it is supported by the Iranian goverment and they answer for it unlike some goverment that say yes it is their citizens and their people and they cant do anything or make any comment to actually alleviate the situation.[/PIE]




The US and Israeli governments do not bomb civilians because they are there. Does Hamas suicide bomb in civilian areas because the civilians are there though? Please awnser that.

[PIE]gee i guess the iraq war and the afghan was has by passed you huh.But wait,have you ehard of the rect lebanese war?
where Isreal bombed civillian with WMD ,illegal WMD and then send leaflets to tell them to elave then bomb bridges and raod and then shoot at anyone trying to elave?

hyprocrisy,or are you practising selective amnesia?
[/PIE]



:giggling:

Why just lie about something?

Jews have passport restrictions in Iran that make it so you have to go through a 1 year interview process before you leave the country if your Jewish. How about reading there laws before speaking!!!! :uhwhat

Iranian citizens are also not aloud to travel to Israel! If a Jew wanted to go to Israel from Iran, he would have to sneak out of the country and somehow get there with a restricted passport. If they are caught they are executed. Please go read Iranian law before you start posting about this again. Your lack of knwoledge on this subject is apparent. :thankyou:



It is against the law in Iran for a Jew to hold dual citizenship.

[PIE]again you mock yourself and know it not,you say that jews are barred from travelling for one year,but ehy are allwoed to travel..so why dont elave iran for good?
if you claim israel as a holy land for jews the promised land,why arent the iranian jews leaving for your "promised land"?

they need not ever retrun to Iran do they?
isnt Israel a coutnry for jews by jews with all thing jews better for jews..unless god forbid you are actually admitting that Iran is better than israel?

[/PIE]



Actually. There is evidence. And anyone who looks at this evidence knows. The Germans kept very good records of EVERYONE they killed and why they killed them. Its sad when one has such a hatred for a people that they go at all lengths to try and discredit them, when in fact they make themselves look so ignorant.

Here is how you should look at.

Everytime you try and revision the numbers of the Holocaust off the top of your head to any sane person it is like you try to prove to us that cows in reality fly around and have wings that are invisible.

There is so much proof that the Holocaust occured and 6 million Jews died that it is utterly ridiculous that anyone would try and deny it. the only people who really deny it are supports of Hitler and Socialists who are apologists for the Nazi's in general.

When you revision the numbers your downplaying the amount of Muslims who might have died in it as well.

[PIE]Word dont make the truth and you say the geramn have wel documented record when it is also clear by historians that the german did not keep record of their prisoners,not good record anyway,why keep them if they are to be killed..as they say then..
So why dont you post us a link with all the detail and i can provide you toehr data to show how much of the jews are killed.

[/PIE]

Your case is very sad.

Go read. :giggling:

I cannot take this טמבל :thankyou:
read my reply in PIE..
Reply

Geronimo
08-17-2006, 06:16 PM
Ohh my,the sauid govermetn make a picture of a propeht,do you understand that is idolatry and haram?we wont do it,but the danes did knowing it is taboo..so what do you say??
the denamrk goverment did not print the caricature but when approached by his own people and by 11 ambassodors he rejected both council?
Why?
dont the people matter?
And yet the very same Iman that brought those cartoons to the Islamic world attention admitted that he added 3 of those pictures. That they were never printed. Where is your condemnation of him?
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Jewish citizens are permitted to obtain passports and to travel outside the country, but they often are denied the multiple-exit permits normally issued to other citizens. With the exception of certain business travelers, the authorities require Jewish persons to obtain clearance and pay additional fees before each trip abroad. The Iranian government is concerned about the emigration of Jewish citizens and permission generally is not granted for all members of a Jewish family to travel outside the country at the same time

So essentially they make it virtually impossible to leave. So now you know and knowing is half the battle GI JOE!
Salaam

so let us make it into point form yes..

1) Permitted to obtain passport
2) denied multiple exit permits except for business traveller
3) Jews are to obtain additional clearance and pay extra
4) GENERALLY jewish family are not allowed to travel,but they are sometimes allwoed to.


so given it in point form yeah,,,does it really make it very IMPOSSIBLE?
you can get a passport,pay extra for clearance,and you cna "generally " bring you family out.

so the point is that the jews of iran are ALLOWED to leave,,,but they dont wish to enter Israel..

WHY?

Once they come to israel they are CITIZENS where they are free not mocked by as you say extremist and so on..
so pray tell,why wont they leave?
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
And yet the very same Iman that brought those cartoons to the Islamic world attention admitted that he added 3 of those pictures. That they were never printed. Where is your condemnation of him?

salaam,

wow a fib,the Imam did not MAKE the pcitures and the pictures are additional from OTHER DRAWERS..

A difference,unless you are saying that the pictures are drawn by the Imam himself...

what condemnation,he is showing trully what the brother/sister there face with an onsluaght of such deragatory pictures.
Reply

Geronimo
08-17-2006, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam

so let us make it into point form yes..

1) Permitted to obtain passport
2) denied multiple exit permits except for business traveller
3) Jews are to obtain additional clearance and pay extra
4) GENERALLY jewish family are not allowed to travel,but they are sometimes allwoed to.


so given it in point form yeah,,,does it really make it very IMPOSSIBLE?
you can get a passport,pay extra for clearance,and you cna "generally " bring you family out.

so the point is that the jews of iran are ALLOWED to leave,,,but they dont wish to enter Israel..

WHY?

Once they come to israel they are CITIZENS where they are free not mocked by as you say extremist and so on..
so pray tell,why wont they leave?
They can leave but can't take their family with them. Think about it. Would you flee a country and leave your wife and kids behind knowing if you don't return all kind of horrible things can possibly be done to them because you can be considered a traitor and an enemy?
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 07:23 PM
Umm,so denamrk is a democracy,so why does it practise self censorship?no article on the holocasut or caricatures of other religon?
Actually they make pictures of many religions, and you ARE aloud to deny the Holocaust there, so that basicaly ruins your whole argument. To bad. Wrong again.

as for you,may i ask,when the 2 isrealis sodleirs were taken hostage,why kill all lebanese when they are not at fault why the mass killing?
When did I ever say Israel wasn't wrong. Israel was wrong for killing civilians and I condemn them for doing so as well. How about you condemn Muslims around the world in violent protests where people died.

Ohh my,the sauid govermetn make a picture of a propeht,do you understand that is idolatry and haram?we wont do it,but the danes did knowing it is taboo..so what do you say??
So instead of making cartoons about a prophet you get back at the Danes by making fun of a genoicide/mass murder of Jews? That makes sense! Where did that idea come from? The mental house?!? Who was the braniac who thought of that idea?

yopur point?? was? i think you should read my word again.
Read your 'word' again??? I'm still trying to decipher what your trying to say with that A+ grammar your throwing at me. :rollseyes

Of course it is supported by the Iranian goverment and they answer for it unlike some goverment that say yes it is their citizens and their people and they cant do anything or make any comment to actually alleviate the situation.
How is Iran awnsering for it again? Half the people on this forum are condoning it!

so why dont elave iran for good?
if you claim israel as a holy land for jews the promised land,why arent the iranian jews leaving for your "promised land"?
Alright. I will take it slow because you are obviously having a difficult time processing this...
  • Jews in Iran are not allowed to travel to Israel
  • Jews in Iran must go through in interview process for 1 year so the gov of Iran knows exactly where they will be.
  • Jews in Iran are often not allowed to travel after that 1 year.
  • Over 100,000 Jews have already fled Iran by foot and by sneaking out to go to Israel, and many were caught and have died by torture for just trying to leave the country!
isnt Israel a coutnry for jews by jews with all thing jews better for jews..unless god forbid you are actually admitting that Iran is better than israel?
Would you try to sneak out of Iran and leave your family behind knowing they might be killed if you refuse to come back, and knowing you will be killed if they catch you? There doing it to protect there loved ones, yet the situation is so bad Jews are still trying to get out every day!

Word dont make the truth and you say the geramn have wel documented record when it is also clear by historians that the german did not keep record of their prisoners
You are not serious are you?

The Germans documented all of there prisoners! Historians claim that the Germans might have kept the most oraginzed records ever kept! They kept papers, pictures, video everything! Your basicaly lieing right to everyones face. How patheticaly embarassing. How about stating facts if you actually want to make a point in this discussion.

So why dont you post us a link with all the detail and i can provide you toehr data to show how much of the jews are killed.
One moment...

Read all of it. If you have the courage to. The don't respond with any less. There are over thousands of web sites that have taken every argument of Holocaust deniers and proved it wrong with PROOF so do not come here and copy paster anything expecting not to get utterly embarassed.


Nazi Documents:

documentary evidence from the past.
Documents on the beginnings of the gassing program:


October 25, 1941: "Gassing Devices". Letter from Wetzel to Lohse, recommending that the head of the euthanasia program should build "gassing devices" to eliminate the Jews.
March 26, 1942: "Special Vans...or Other Remedies". Letter from Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute, stating that "special vans" are needed at the Mauthausen concentration camp. Until they arrive, bottled poison gas must be used.
April 11, 1942: "Delousing Van". Letter to Himmler's staff describing how a "delousing van" -

quote marks in the original - will be used to clear out a camp of Jewish women and children. June 5, 1942: "97,000 have been processed". Letter to Rauff, describing in detail how the "special vans" in the East have murdered 97,000 people.

Documents on the Auschwitz death camp:


August 21, 1942: "Bathing Installations for Special Action". Describes two ovens installed in Auschwitz gassing bunkers.
August 26, 1942: "Material for Special Treatment". Permission to send a truck to pick up Zyklon-B.
September 1-5, 1942: Diary of Johann Paul Kremer. Dr. Kremer witnessed gassings in Auschwitz and wrote about them in his diary.
September 8, 1942: "Cremation capacity of 2,650 a day is not enough". A note to file by Topf engineer Karl Pr&#252;fer.


January 29, 1943: "Cremation with Simultaneous Special Treatment". It was important to conduct gassing and cremation at the same time.
January 29, 1943: "Vergasungskeller". The gas chamber room's purpose is revealed ("gassing cellar").
March 31, 1943: Krema II Inventory. Mentions the devices by which the Zyklon-B was poured into the gas chamber.


June 24, 1943: Krema III Inventory. Lists the fourteen (fake) showerheads and "one gas-tight door" installed in the gas chamber.
May 24, 1944: "Unconditional Secrecy". An SS man is sworn to secrecy "to carry out the Jewish evacuation." June/July 1944: "Revealing a State Secret". A woman is executed for having revealed Auschwitz's secrets.

Documents on the Operation Reinhard extermination camps:

July 18, 1942: "the obligation to maintain secrecy continues even after I have left the Service" A secrecy undertaking of Operation Reinhard participants.

Other Documents:


Cremation at Gusen: A Timesheet. Shows the cremation of 94 corpses in less than 20 hours on November 7, 1941.


Leuchter Consent Agreement. Holocaust Denier Fred Leuchter admits he is not an engineer and nevertheless represented himself as such.


.
Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers by Jean-Claude Pressac. By permission of the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation. The seminal and still timely book on the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

IMT Volume I (370 pages). The Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, Volume I. Covering October 18 to November 13, 1945. The text has been faithfully reproduced page-by-page. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

IMT Volume II (500 pages). Covering November 14 to November 30, 1945. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

IMT Volume III (600 pages). Covering December 1 to December 14, 1945. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.
IMT Volume IV (570 pages). Covering December 17, 1945 to January 8, 1946. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

The Jaeger Report (9 pages), Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Karl Jaeger, commander of one of the "Einsatzkommandos" (EK 3), it provides a very detailed account of the murderous rampage of this "special squad" in Nazi-occupied USSR, and proudly documents 137,346 murders.

The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide by Dr. Robert Jay Lifton. "An agonizing account of what doctors can do when they are transformed by their culture. To read of the medical experiments at Auschwitz - 'They took us because they didn’t have rabbits' - will make it harder for us physicians ever again to be corrupted." Howard M. Spiro, M.D. Professor of Medicine, Yale Medical School.

img026?raw1 -



The Stroop Report (125 pages), Major General J&#252;rgen Stroop, 1943. The thorough Nazi record proudly documenting the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. See also Stroop on Treblinka. Thanks to J&#252;rgen Langowski. See introduction for notes on the English translation.</I>

Blaus&#228;ure zur Sch&#228;dlingsbek&#228;mpfung (70 pages), Gerhard Peters, 1933. "Prussic Acid in Pest Control." An important work for understanding the characteristics of Zyklon-B. Text transcription and translation are not yet available. Thanks to Daniel Keren.

Die Einsatzf&#228;higkeit der Blaus&#228;ure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen (5 pages), Gerhard Peters and W. Rasch, 1941. "The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures." Addresses behavior of Zyklon-B at low temperatures.



Nochmals: Die Einsatzf&#228;higkeit der Blaus&#228;ure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen (3 pages), R. Irmscher, 1942. "Once More: The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures." Further German research addressing the behavior of Zyklon-B at low temperatures.


Holocaust Denial
We have a special page devoted to an examination of Holocaust denial and deniers.
Among other things, we offer a quick questions and answers page on revisionism and Holocaust deniers.
David Irving is a Holocaust denier residing in the UK who recently lost a lawsuit to Deborah Lipstadt. We now have an index organizing material about David Irving. We also offer a pamphlet for those seeking a printed concise introduction to David Irving and his lies, entitled Who is David Irving?


Not for the faint hearted! Only click on these pics if you have the courage!!!!!!


http://www.holocaust-history.org/hun...pg/12-1142.jpg

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Auschw02.jpg

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocau...thomeimage.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ordhausen_camp.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rsawghetto.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-Einsatz1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...t-gas-hair.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ovnopogrom.jpg





Reply

Keltoi
08-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the info therebbe.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
They can leave but can't take their family with them. Think about it. Would you flee a country and leave your wife and kids behind knowing if you don't return all kind of horrible things can possibly be done to them because you can be considered a traitor and an enemy?

Salaam,

wow,just now in your earlier post you say they generally CANT...but that mean sometimes can..

So now it is supposition?

you ask me to try and think about it,about what will happen to the rest of the jewish family ...

Is that what you wish to think of or what is really going on?

face it lah,from your own point you accept that jews are able to move around albeit payign extra and families are able to go off from Iran,,but they always do return to iran.

And i hope you can read this about the lone jewish minister in iran,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1807160,00.html

why not write to this Jew minister and ask him if jews are not allowed to travel with their families?
Instead of asking any of us to "think"...
Reply

Keltoi
08-17-2006, 09:05 PM
Here is another link on this topic

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 09:09 PM
Like other religious minorities in Iran, Jews suffer from officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. They may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.[26]

The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support Zionism and the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[26] Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press.[27] Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.[26]

The legal system also discriminates against religious minorities who receive lower awards than Muslims in injury and death lawsuits and incur heavier punishments. In 2002, the law was passed that made the amount of "blood money" (diyeh) paid by a perpetrator for killing or wounding a Christian, Jew, or Zoroastrian man the same as it would be for killing or wounding a Muslim.[26]

Sources

^ Report, Reuters, February 16 2000, cited from Bah&#225;'&#237; Library Online.

^ U.S. Department of State. International Religious Freedom Report 2004: Iran. Retrieved on 2006-05-14.

^ Murphy, Brian. "Iran's Jews caught again in no man's land", Associated Press, 2006-07-31. Retrieved on 2006-07-31.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Actually they make pictures of many religions, and you ARE aloud to deny the Holocaust there, so that basicaly ruins your whole argument. To bad. Wrong again.

[PIE]Really are they so lets see if they will print out the Holocaust pictures as well as the other coutnries that practise self censorship.
Can then we can talk further.[/PIE]



When did I ever say Israel wasn't wrong. Israel was wrong for killing civilians and I condemn them for doing so as well. How about you condemn Muslims around the world in violent protests where people died.



[PIE]so caught you in al lie huh,or to wake you up form your "amnesiac state" ,but i am happy that you have admitted TO YOURSELF,that the IDF targeted civillian willingly.[/PIE]



So instead of making cartoons about a prophet you get back at the Danes by making fun of a genoicide/mass murder of Jews? That makes sense! Where did that idea come from? The mental house?!? Who was the braniac who thought of that idea?

[PIE]LOL,well iit does make sense as many coutnries in europe make it a law to NOT DENY the HOLCOUST and the rest practise self censorship.

So it is simple as Ahmednijad has said simply,it is too see if the west will break their self inflicted censorship and to rpactise FULLF REEDOMW IHOUT CARING FOR OTEHRS..

As they posted the pictures KNWOING THE AFFECT,so should they NOW NOT FOLLOW THE SAME PRICNCIPLE?
Or is some people allowed to be slandered and other not.

the Holocasut is the worst that the Jews suffered under the EU or german,and it is remembered by amny there as a balck mark,and thus the self imposed censorship.

So now it is their time to embrace democarcy and embrace Iranian freedom...
we have never started this but we will end it and teach to you the cost of freedom wihtout ethics.

[/PIE]



Read your 'word' again??? I'm still trying to decipher what your trying to say with that A+ grammar your throwing at me. :rollseyes

[PIE]And not "understanding my grammar" yet you are still able to reply...wow...either my english is bad or you A level is really underlevel...[/PIE]



How is Iran awnsering for it again? Half the people on this forum are condoning it!

[PIE]How is the Iran goverment answering for it,simple they make it to your face,they say clearly what they eman instead of hiding behind the sacrcastic and offensive attitude of "FREE SPPECH AND DEMOCRACY".
they say clearly what this is about to test the west freedom of free speech.
while the danes and the eu and otehr western coutnries cover and shielf behing their socalled "civilisation" to slander and harm toehr willfully wihout thought and recourse.

[/PIE]



Alright. I will take it slow because you are obviously having a difficult time processing this...
  • Jews in Iran are not allowed to travel to Israel
  • Jews in Iran must go through in interview process for 1 year so the gov of Iran knows exactly where they will be.
  • Jews in Iran are often not allowed to travel after that 1 year.
  • Over 100,000 Jews have already fled Iran by foot and by sneaking out to go to Israel, and many were caught and have died by torture for just trying to leave the country!


Would you try to sneak out of Iran and leave your family behind knowing they might be killed if you refuse to come back, and knowing you will be killed if they catch you? There doing it to protect there loved ones, yet the situation is so bad Jews are still trying to get out every day!


[PIE]Wow,,i am not serious,,really,,well those are what the other poster said and take it up with him,
Jews are able to travel and with their families but they WONT GO TO ISRAEL..

And you suspect that it is becasue of Iranian action and murder of Jews?
Pray tell is this your hallucination speaking or your desire to make the iranian appear evil in your eyes?

At the end of the day it is simple,why dont you write a jewish letter to the lone Jewish Minister in iran?
why dont you ask his opinion ,but his view as according to the website,is becasue he loves Iran and it is his homeland.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1807160,00.html

But ofcourse dont take my word for it,why dont you send a mail to this Jewish leader in Iran unless of coruse you dont beleive he is a jew for loving iran...\

[/PIE]


You are not serious are you?

The Germans documented all of there prisoners! Historians claim that the Germans might have kept the most oraginzed records ever kept! They kept papers, pictures, video everything! Your basicaly lieing right to everyones face. How patheticaly embarassing. How about stating facts if you actually want to make a point in this discussion.



One moment...

Read all of it. If you have the courage to. The don't respond with any less. There are over thousands of web sites that have taken every argument of Holocaust deniers and proved it wrong with PROOF so do not come here and copy paster anything expecting not to get utterly embarassed.


Nazi Documents:

documentary evidence from the past.
Documents on the beginnings of the gassing program:


October 25, 1941: "Gassing Devices". Letter from Wetzel to Lohse, recommending that the head of the euthanasia program should build "gassing devices" to eliminate the Jews.
March 26, 1942: "Special Vans...or Other Remedies". Letter from Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute, stating that "special vans" are needed at the Mauthausen concentration camp. Until they arrive, bottled poison gas must be used.
April 11, 1942: "Delousing Van". Letter to Himmler's staff describing how a "delousing van" -

quote marks in the original - will be used to clear out a camp of Jewish women and children. June 5, 1942: "97,000 have been processed". Letter to Rauff, describing in detail how the "special vans" in the East have murdered 97,000 people.

Documents on the Auschwitz death camp:


August 21, 1942: "Bathing Installations for Special Action". Describes two ovens installed in Auschwitz gassing bunkers.
August 26, 1942: "Material for Special Treatment". Permission to send a truck to pick up Zyklon-B.
September 1-5, 1942: Diary of Johann Paul Kremer. Dr. Kremer witnessed gassings in Auschwitz and wrote about them in his diary.
September 8, 1942: "Cremation capacity of 2,650 a day is not enough". A note to file by Topf engineer Karl Prüfer.


January 29, 1943: "Cremation with Simultaneous Special Treatment". It was important to conduct gassing and cremation at the same time.
January 29, 1943: "Vergasungskeller". The gas chamber room's purpose is revealed ("gassing cellar").
March 31, 1943: Krema II Inventory. Mentions the devices by which the Zyklon-B was poured into the gas chamber.


June 24, 1943: Krema III Inventory. Lists the fourteen (fake) showerheads and "one gas-tight door" installed in the gas chamber.
May 24, 1944: "Unconditional Secrecy". An SS man is sworn to secrecy "to carry out the Jewish evacuation." June/July 1944: "Revealing a State Secret". A woman is executed for having revealed Auschwitz's secrets.

Documents on the Operation Reinhard extermination camps:

July 18, 1942: "the obligation to maintain secrecy continues even after I have left the Service" A secrecy undertaking of Operation Reinhard participants.

Other Documents:


Cremation at Gusen: A Timesheet. Shows the cremation of 94 corpses in less than 20 hours on November 7, 1941.


Leuchter Consent Agreement. Holocaust Denier Fred Leuchter admits he is not an engineer and nevertheless represented himself as such.


.
Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers by Jean-Claude Pressac. By permission of the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation. The seminal and still timely book on the gas chambers at Auschwitz.

IMT Volume I (370 pages). The Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, Volume I. Covering October 18 to November 13, 1945. The text has been faithfully reproduced page-by-page. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

IMT Volume II (500 pages). Covering November 14 to November 30, 1945. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

IMT Volume III (600 pages). Covering December 1 to December 14, 1945. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.
IMT Volume IV (570 pages). Covering December 17, 1945 to January 8, 1946. Thanks to Patrick Groff and Harry Mazal.

The Jaeger Report (9 pages), Written by SS-Standartenfuehrer (Colonel) Karl Jaeger, commander of one of the "Einsatzkommandos" (EK 3), it provides a very detailed account of the murderous rampage of this "special squad" in Nazi-occupied USSR, and proudly documents 137,346 murders.

The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide by Dr. Robert Jay Lifton. "An agonizing account of what doctors can do when they are transformed by their culture. To read of the medical experiments at Auschwitz - 'They took us because they didn’t have rabbits' - will make it harder for us physicians ever again to be corrupted." Howard M. Spiro, M.D. Professor of Medicine, Yale Medical School.

img026 1?raw1 -



The Stroop Report (125 pages), Major General Jürgen Stroop, 1943. The thorough Nazi record proudly documenting the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. See also Stroop on Treblinka. Thanks to Jürgen Langowski. See introduction for notes on the English translation.</I>

Blausäure zur Schädlingsbekämpfung (70 pages), Gerhard Peters, 1933. "Prussic Acid in Pest Control." An important work for understanding the characteristics of Zyklon-B. Text transcription and translation are not yet available. Thanks to Daniel Keren.

Die Einsatzfähigkeit der Blausäure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen (5 pages), Gerhard Peters and W. Rasch, 1941. "The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures." Addresses behavior of Zyklon-B at low temperatures.



Nochmals: Die Einsatzfähigkeit der Blausäure-Durchgasung bei tiefen Temperaturen (3 pages), R. Irmscher, 1942. "Once More: The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures." Further German research addressing the behavior of Zyklon-B at low temperatures.


Holocaust Denial
We have a special page devoted to an examination of Holocaust denial and deniers.
Among other things, we offer a quick questions and answers page on revisionism and Holocaust deniers.
David Irving is a Holocaust denier residing in the UK who recently lost a lawsuit to Deborah Lipstadt. We now have an index organizing material about David Irving. We also offer a pamphlet for those seeking a printed concise introduction to David Irving and his lies, entitled Who is David Irving?


Not for the faint hearted! Only click on these pics if you have the courage!!!!!!


http://www.holocaust-history.org/hun...pg/12-1142.jpg

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/Auschw02.jpg

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG1.jpg

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocau...thomeimage.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ordhausen_camp.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rsawghetto.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-Einsatz1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H...t-gas-hair.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ovnopogrom.jpg







tahnk for links and i will study them thoroughly ,but can i say the same for you,instead of trying to manipulate people to think thatt he iranian are blcoking the jews from iran from leaving why don't you send a mail to the Jewish minister...
read my reply in PIE
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Like other religious minorities in Iran, Jews suffer from officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. They may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.[26]

The anti-Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support Zionism and the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[26] Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press.[27] Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.[26]

The legal system also discriminates against religious minorities who receive lower awards than Muslims in injury and death lawsuits and incur heavier punishments. In 2002, the law was passed that made the amount of "blood money" (diyeh) paid by a perpetrator for killing or wounding a Christian, Jew, or Zoroastrian man the same as it would be for killing or wounding a Muslim.[26]

Sources

^ Report, Reuters, February 16 2000, cited from Bahá'í Library Online.

^ U.S. Department of State. International Religious Freedom Report 2004: Iran. Retrieved on 2006-05-14.

^ Murphy, Brian. "Iran's Jews caught again in no man's land", Associated Press, 2006-07-31. Retrieved on 2006-07-31.
salaam,

Oh my discrimination and so much..then it must be true that the Irnaian are actually killing any jews who go isreal....NOT..

so agian dont post cut and past what you wish to beleive...and forcing other to beleive.

I asked you to ask the jews in iran,,,especially the Jewsih minister in iran...

that is if you think he is jewish despite the fact that he say he lvoes his homeland..

PS,Can you tell me,do you ahve dual citizenship? If you do why not give up your other coutnry and be a full fledged Isrealis?

I guess it is nice to have something to fall back on when soemthing goes wrong huh..

How many jewish minister have dual citizenship..
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-17-2006, 09:29 PM
Salaam,


the pictures trully are old,care for some new colour pictures?

why dont you take alook ate lebanon and Palestine?

trully if you are that old perhaps it will bring back fond memories of how you or yours were trotured and so on,,,but you can be assured now that you are doign it to others...
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 09:36 PM
the pictures trully are old,care for some new colour pictures?
I'm sorry that pictures from 1939-1945 seem old to you. Being that you are probably not much older than 20, you would not understand.

How about reading the documents that were scanned and I provided you with!

If you do not know German ask a member to translate it. I gave probably 20 out of the MILLIONS of documents proving the Holocaust not only existed... but 6 Million Jews died during it. Another 6 Million died who were not Jewish to!

If you want to all the facts go ahead. I couldn't care. I just get terribly saddened when someone talks out of there butt and denies what happend because of there hatred for a certain people.

You could hold yourself to a higher note.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-17-2006, 10:26 PM
First off this isnt exactly what we should be doing. If u do what the west did, it wont make u any different from them. This is definitely not helping our image.
Reply

Woodrow
08-17-2006, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
First off this isnt exactly what we should be doing. If u do what the west did, it wont make u any different from them. This is definitely not helping our image.
Agreed, at best it will simply be shrugged off by much of the world. It is not going to generate any major turmoil in much of the world. I would suspect that many newspapers, especialy the tabloids will publich pictures from the fair.

However, it may bring home a very significant point that many mid-easterners do not see. That is in the western world the Jews are faced with the same prejudice the Muslims face. Many Westerners do not see any differences between Jews and Muslims. You will see both indiscriminatly attacked by the same hate groups. Many, many westerners see Jews and Muslims as being 2 seperate tribes of Arabs. The Muslims and Jews do face many common enemies.

When I was growing up, I remember seeing very many anti-Jewish cartoons here in the USA. It was not until after the civil rights movement of the 1960s that Jews gained some acceptance among many Americans. Until recently Muslims kept a very low profile in the USA and many Americans were unaware that any Muslims even lived here. It was not uncommon for mosques to be mistaken for synagogues.

Even to this day we still have a number of US hate groups that are equaly against, Non-Whites, Muslims, Jews and in some areas against Irish Catholics also. The hate is spread equaly, with no distinction between Muslim or Jew.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-18-2006, 12:02 AM
This world is a prison for a mu'min(believer) and paradise for the kafir(non-believer). Let people laugh at you now, for it is better than the sneers of satan on the Day of Judgement.
Reply

Keltoi
08-18-2006, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Agreed, at best it will simply be shrugged off by much of the world. It is not going to generate any major turmoil in much of the world. I would suspect that many newspapers, especialy the tabloids will publich pictures from the fair.

However, it may bring home a very significant point that many mid-easterners do not see. That is in the western world the Jews are faced with the same prejudice the Muslims face. Many Westerners do not see any differences between Jews and Muslims. You will see both indiscriminatly attacked by the same hate groups. Many, many westerners see Jews and Muslims as being 2 seperate tribes of Arabs. The Muslims and Jews do face many common enemies.

When I was growing up, I remember seeing very many anti-Jewish cartoons here in the USA. It was not until after the civil rights movement of the 1960s that Jews gained some acceptance among many Americans. Until recently Muslims kept a very low profile in the USA and many Americans were unaware that any Muslims even lived here. It was not uncommon for mosques to be mistaken for synagogues.

Even to this day we still have a number of US hate groups that are equaly against, Non-Whites, Muslims, Jews and in some areas against Irish Catholics also. The hate is spread equaly, with no distinction between Muslim or Jew.
I realize that these hate groups exist, but I think you might be overstating or at least generalizing too much on this particular issue. Yes there are racist groups and people who view Jews and Arabs with hate goggles, but I don't think this is a widespread or general belief of the Western public.
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I realize that these hate groups exist, but I think you might be overstating or at least generalizing too much on this particular issue. Yes there are racist groups and people who view Jews and Arabs with hate goggles, but I don't think this is a widespread or general belief of the Western public.
It use to be completly hate for the Jews for a long time while Muslims were not even known to exist in the west. Then the Jews began to settle into society, and western society became more accepting towards the Jews and for the first time noticed Islam.

Yet, just about every hate group that hates Muslims, hates Jews as well, the other way around also except in a few cases.
Reply

Keltoi
08-18-2006, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
It use to be completly hate for the Jews for a long time while Muslims were not even known to exist in the west. Then the Jews began to settle into society, and western society became more accepting towards the Jews and for the first time noticed Islam.

Yet, just about every hate group that hates Muslims, hates Jews as well, the other way around also except in a few cases.
I realize the history of hate groups and the Jewish experience in Western society, I'm not denying the racism and bigotry they have faced. However, I reject the idea that racism against Jews and Muslims is a widespread phenomenon, at least in the US. I can't speak for Europe.
Reply

Woodrow
08-18-2006, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I realize that these hate groups exist, but I think you might be overstating or at least generalizing too much on this particular issue. Yes there are racist groups and people who view Jews and Arabs with hate goggles, but I don't think this is a widespread or general belief of the Western public.
I'm reflecting just what I have seen and it probably is a generalization to apply the views of one person very far. I have to admit that would be my own bias. I apologise for generalising.
Reply

Keltoi
08-18-2006, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I'm reflecting just what I have seen and it probably is a generalization to apply the views of one person very far. I have to admit that would be my own bias. I apologise for generalising.
I realize it can seem that way. As a Native American I've faced bigotry as well, but overall I've found the American people have progressed by leaps in bounds in their acceptance of different peoples and cultures. There is always going to be that element of hate and bigotry in any society.

Liberals tell me that I should feel insulted every time I watch a Washington Redskins football game, but somehow I don't feel the outrage. Maybe there is something wrong with me...
Reply

wilberhum
08-23-2006, 09:43 PM
Holocaust cartoon fair
Ten days and no violence.
No death threats, no embassies burnt, no riots, and no one dead.

In fact it is kind of a “Non Event”.

I guess the West is passing “The Test” .
Reply

Woodrow
08-24-2006, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Holocaust cartoon fair
Ten days and no violence.
No death threats, no embassies burnt, no riots, and no one dead.

In fact it is kind of a “Non Event”.

I guess the West is passing “The Test” .

I've contmplated this post for 2 hours, in an attmpt to come up with some type of valid response.

I can't this post is an excellent summation.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Holocaust cartoon fair
Ten days and no violence.
No death threats, no embassies burnt, no riots, and no one dead.

In fact it is kind of a “Non Event”.

I guess the West is passing “The Test” .

Salaam,

Did they post the pictures ?
If yes can you show the links here,,CNN,BBC and other major papers.

Especially the danes.

The Iranin focus is to show the hyprocrisy of the western freedom,,it is for them and not for others..

So pls post the links thanks...

And i would think all the more worse for westerner if they actually protest when it is all about common man.
Reply

Keltoi
08-26-2006, 01:07 AM
A Holocaust "cartoon" fair is all about the common man?...
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
A Holocaust "cartoon" fair is all about the common man?...
Salaam,

yes they are but commoan man..unless you worship and pray to them as deities.

Can you post the link if you have them....
Reply

Trumble
08-26-2006, 07:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Did they post the pictures ?
If yes can you show the links here,,CNN,BBC and other major papers.

Especially the danes.
Neither CNN, BBC, or any of the major American or British TV channels or newspapers published the Danish cartoons, either.

The Danes I wouldn't know about.
Reply

Woodrow
08-26-2006, 08:02 AM
So far it does not appear that any body has published any of the pictures. I searched through quite a few papers around the world and I could only find one small article about it in Al-Jazeera, without pictures, of the cartoons. I have not found any other reverences.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-28-2006, 04:36 AM
Salaam,

Yes mee too,,in Singapore no coutntry has posted the pictures just an article that it has opened.

Hyprocrisy,western freedom not freedom perse...
Reply

Keltoi
08-28-2006, 10:56 PM
If any Western publication found the Iranian display worthwhile enough to print examples of the cartoons involved they would have. That is one more element of the free press. They don't have to print pictures if they choose not to. I see nothing worthwhile in a display like this, and I was quite happy not to see them.
Reply

Woodrow
08-28-2006, 11:01 PM
I have not found them in any of the Islamic Newspapers either. Apparently us Muslims have no use for them either. That may be a good sign.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-29-2006, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If any Western publication found the Iranian display worthwhile enough to print examples of the cartoons involved they would have. That is one more element of the free press. They don't have to print pictures if they choose not to. I see nothing worthwhile in a display like this, and I was quite happy not to see them.

Salaam,

Going by that logic,do you eat the same food evryday,,,not wanting or daring to try new things?

How cna one say one need not like one does not know?

And free press mena that they print what ever is news worthy,,and caricatures of the holocasut is not NEWS WORTHY?

Like i say,in one stroke western democracy and western freedom of speech is destroyed..

It is western freedoma nd western freedom of speech that the west wish to impose..

I guess it is liken to Bush command that no pictures of dead US soldiers can be taken...what is not seen cannot be true huh...LOL

:? :uuh:
Reply

therebbe
08-29-2006, 03:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Yes mee too,,in Singapore no coutntry has posted the pictures just an article that it has opened.

Hyprocrisy,western freedom not freedom perse...
I don't quite understand your point other than your trying to justify the mass murder of Jews in Europe to be run as a cartoon... :uhwhat
Reply

Woodrow
08-29-2006, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Going by that logic,do you eat the same food evryday,,,not wanting or daring to try new things?

How cna one say one need not like one does not know?

And free press mena that they print what ever is news worthy,,and caricatures of the holocasut is not NEWS WORTHY?

Like i say,in one stroke western democracy and western freedom of speech is destroyed..

It is western freedoma nd western freedom of speech that the west wish to impose..

I guess it is liken to Bush command that no pictures of dead US soldiers can be taken...what is not seen cannot be true huh...LOL

:? :uuh:

Apparantly none of the worlds newpapers have found them worth printing I can not even find them in any of the Iranian newspapers or any paper Western or Islamic.
Reply

Dahir
08-29-2006, 03:55 AM
I can understand reviewing the Holocaust, but cartoons are pushing the envelope. This "fair" is immature and disrespectful. Don't support it.
Reply

Woodrow
08-29-2006, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
I can understand reviewing the Holocaust, but cartoons are pushing the envelope. This "fair" is immature and disrespectful. Don't support it.
Right now it seems most of the world is doing just that. It is being totaly ignored by both the Islamic and the Western World. Even Iran seems to be ignoring it. Maybe the world is more mature than it leads me to believe at times.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-30-2006, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
I don't quite understand your point other than your trying to justify the mass murder of Jews in Europe to be run as a cartoon... :uhwhat

Salaam,

Exactly we muslim dont understand it too,,but since the west keep on maintiang the mantra of freedom of speech,,,,then should it be restricted?

Or should freedom of speech be controlled by ethics and morality?

For the wst when they posted those ill pictures of a Prophet,,,,even tho it is not their Prophet,,,does that make it right for them to be allowd to publicize it??

It can aslo be said that since Iran is not apart nor inflcited any atrocites of the Holocasut,are they not allowed to portray the incident as they wish??

The muslim stance is clear,respect us and we will respect you.

Disrespect us and our reliogn ,why cant we do the smae to you,in the name of free speech?

So in short HYPROCRISY...
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-30-2006, 06:07 AM
Salaam,

as i said before,Iran has tested and not propogate it,it has sent a challenge to teh west based on FREE SPEECH..

And they have rejected it...what does it say about Free SPeech?
theirs not our...

And in by doing so,the westrn world realsie and perhaps learn the meaning of the word RESPECT..
Reply

therebbe
08-30-2006, 02:27 PM
Exactly we muslim dont understand it too,,but since the west keep on maintiang the mantra of freedom of speech,,,,then should it be restricted?
Oh no. I do not believe it should be restricted. Let Iran do it! It proves they are anti-jewish though. Let Denmark publish Mohammad. It proves they are Anti-Muslim though!
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-30-2006, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Oh no. I do not believe it should be restricted. Let Iran do it! It proves they are anti-jewish though. Let Denmark publish Mohammad. It proves they are Anti-Muslim though!

Salaam,

Exactly..simple isn't it.

the danes will not publish the pictures even tho they siad they will..or their editor said it..

So why wont they post it?

And anti jewish,finally you ahve learned that arabs too are semitic ..LOLOL

We already know the danes and the EU or every other western coutnry that posted those pictures hated Islam..

And we have proven their HATRED to their face.
Under the cover of free speech they cowered to print the caricatures of the Prophet..
Under the cover of free speech they spoke about freedom and democracy.

where is it now?

Their Freedom of Speech or rahter their HATE....
Reply

therebbe
08-30-2006, 06:24 PM
Exactly. Thank you.

Case closed. The Danes who printed the pictures do not like Muslims.

Irans gov does not like Jews. Case closed.
Reply

Woodrow
08-30-2006, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Exactly. Thank you.

Case closed. The Danes who printed the pictures do not like Muslims.

Irans gov does not like Jews. Case closed.
That is very true. As far as papers and magazines go, Have to remember that in much of the Western world the Government has absolutly no say as to what is published. Publishing is a privatly owned business. A publisher goes through the expense of printing a magazine newspaper or whatever in the hopes advertisers or sales will result in a profit. The only reason the Holocost cartoons are not being published is because every publishing company knows they would loose money publishing them. A publisher will only print what will generate profit for his company.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-31-2006, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Exactly. Thank you.

Case closed. The Danes who printed the pictures do not like Muslims.

Irans gov does not like Jews. Case closed.

Salaam,

as i said,the west hates Islam and their actions are very clear in this case.

and Iran does not hate Jews ,if they did the jews in iran would have left iran long ago or be persecuted and what not.

Ahmednijad has said Israel should be wiped out,not jews..

Isreal is a land an ideal,not a real thing,it can be destroyed as it has been 2 times and will be too in the future.
Reply

Keltoi
08-31-2006, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

as i said,the west hates Islam and their actions are very clear in this case.

and Iran does not hate Jews ,if they did the jews in iran would have left iran long ago or be persecuted and what not.

Ahmednijad has said Israel should be wiped out,not jews..

Isreal is a land an ideal,not a real thing,it can be destroyed as it has been 2 times and will be too in the future.
Using your own logic, if the West "hated" Islam, why are there so many Muslims in the Western world?
Reply

QuranStudy
08-31-2006, 05:18 PM
Using your own logic, if the West "hated" Islam, why are there so many Muslims in the Western world?
Why are so many Muslims discriminated in the Western world? Logic applies here as well.
Reply

lavikor201
08-31-2006, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Why are so many Muslims discriminated in the Western world? Logic applies here as well.
Why are so many non-Muslims discriminated in Muslim land?
Reply

QuranStudy
08-31-2006, 07:02 PM
Why are so many non-Muslims discriminated in Muslim land?
Why are so many Muslims discriminated in Israel?
Reply

abdmez
08-31-2006, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Why are so many Muslims discriminated in Israel?
But they aren't. Muslims hold positions in Israel's congress, can have any job they want, can buy any type of real estate. While in Iran Jews cannot hold certian jobs, have any type of affiliation with the Government and will be jailed if they speak out in support of Israel... Yet in Israel, an Arab can say he wants Israel destroyed and the people defending him from a mob with angry people will be ISRAELI SOLDIERS!....

Get the facts right.
Reply

QuranStudy
08-31-2006, 07:10 PM
But they aren't. Muslims hold positions in Israel's congress, can have any job they want, can buy any type of real estate. While in Iran Jews cannot hold certian jobs, have any type of affiliation with the Government and will be jailed if they speak out in support of Israel... Yet in Israel, an Arab can say he wants Israel destroyed and the people defending him from a mob with angry people will be ISRAELI SOLDIERS!....
LOL, that last person I would ask for facts from is you. Werent you the one who said the Torah wasnt part of the Bible? I also remember you saying untrue statements on Iran which I have soundly refuted. So no, I do not consider what you say trustworthy.

As far as rights in Israel are concerned, this can speak for itself:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/isrlpa12224.htm
Reply

abdmez
08-31-2006, 07:15 PM
Werent you the one who said the Torah wasnt part of the Bible?
Please find me that post. Thats completly untrue.

I also remember you saying untrue statements on Iran which I have soundly refuted.
Oh? Show me...


I am a Muslim who lives in the Holy Land. Where do you live? Anywhere close to the action? Stop listening to these radicals who care less about the Palestinians and only care about death of Jews.

Did any of the Muslim world care about a palestinian state before 1967? No! You just let Egypt and Jordan have it.
Reply

abdmez
08-31-2006, 07:19 PM
I'd love to know if you and your family live in the crossfire, or are you just sitting back and watching everything on TV?
Reply

QuranStudy
08-31-2006, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Oh? Show me...
Here

format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
I'd love to know if you and your family live in the crossfire, or are you just sitting back and watching everything on TV?
I read stories from real Muslims in Israel. Such as this one. I also trust credible sources such as HRW.
Reply

lavikor201
08-31-2006, 09:14 PM
I read stories from real Muslims in Israel. Such as this one. I also trust credible sources such as HRW.
Real Muslims in Israel? What is the criterea to be a 'real muslim' these days for you? Hate Jews and Israel?

And I specifically remember people calling HRW a fraud ect when they make any judgement on the Palestinians. Yet, when they are harsh on Israel, it is a 'reliable source'....
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-31-2006, 10:01 PM
You guys r weird...everyone is discriminated everywhere. Non muslims that are discriminated in Muslim countries shouldnt be. Theyre supposed to be protected and thats what the Sharia(Islamic Law) says. The Sharia guarantees them that protection. At least when it was followed correctly, they weren't.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-01-2006, 04:35 AM
Real Muslims in Israel? What is the criterea to be a 'real muslim' these days for you? Hate Jews and Israel?
No, those who turn to Allah in times of discrimination (like in Israel).

And I specifically remember people calling HRW a fraud ect when they make any judgement on the Palestinians. Yet, when they are harsh on Israel, it is a 'reliable source'....
So, anything that defames Israel by telling the truth is a "fraud." Thank you, but I dont buy it.
Reply

Mohsin
09-01-2006, 05:48 AM
I can't believe some muslims are defending what Iran are doing. What kind of islamic message does this portray? Are people going to be brought closer to the deen? Two wrongs don't make a right. Remember as muslims we should enjoin the good, and forbid the evil


I suppose if it does show one thing it shows there is a limit to "Freedom of expression". Everyone in the west always harps on about the fact there is freedom of expression wheras we know that is not so true. I mean we can't just go up to somebody and start insulting them and start saying "Due to freedom of expression I think you look like a pig". Insha'allah people will now realise the islamic value on freedom of expression. As a khateeb once said during jummah khutba "In islam, you have freedom of expression but that doesn't mean you have the freedom to insult other people"
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Using your own logic, if the West "hated" Islam, why are there so many Muslims in the Western world?
Salaam,

It is clear and pls dont put hate in "" ,it is is real hate and not ambiguos.
the west is fearful and hates Islam.

There are many muslim in the western world either due to immigration or due to the western coutnries low birth rate or converts.

does that make them or give the right for the western coutnries to hate Islam?

Or why do they hate Islam?

As i have said,this pictures made by Iran to test the west is clear,it show their hateful stance and show their hate of Islam clearly,and in their cowardice they shield themsevles behind "free speech"
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mohsin
I can't believe some muslims are defending what Iran are doing. What kind of islamic message does this portray? Are people going to be brought closer to the deen? Two wrongs don't make a right. Remember as muslims we should enjoin the good, and forbid the evil


I suppose if it does show one thing it shows there is a limit to "Freedom of expression". Everyone in the west always harps on about the fact there is freedom of expression wheras we know that is not so true. I mean we can't just go up to somebody and start insulting them and start saying "Due to freedom of expression I think you look like a pig". Insha'allah people will now realise the islamic value on freedom of expression. As a khateeb once said during jummah khutba "In islam, you have freedom of expression but that doesn't mean you have the freedom to insult other people"
Salaam,

In this fact there is nothing wrong,Iran is teaching the west of FREE SPEECH as they see it.

they say free speech cnanot be constrained nor ruled,everyone can say anything,and they ahve showned it by violating the command sof our reliogna dn blashemy on our beloved Prophet based on FREE SPEECH.

Is it right? Clearly no,but what do they say or what reason do they use agian and again?

FREE SPEECH.

and thius with this Iran show a point and teaches the west...about respect and values.

that no one free speech is trulyl free wihout harming other religona dn sensitivities.
Reply

Mohsin
09-01-2006, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

In this fact there is nothing wrong,Iran is teaching the west of FREE SPEECH as they see it.

they say free speech cnanot be constrained nor ruled,everyone can say anything,and they ahve showned it by violating the command sof our reliogna dn blashemy on our beloved Prophet based on FREE SPEECH.

Is it right? Clearly no,but what do they say or what reason do they use agian and again?

FREE SPEECH.

and thius with this Iran show a point and teaches the west...about respect and values.

that no one free speech is trulyl free wihout harming other religona dn sensitivities.

I know what you're saying, they are out to prove a point, but i still don't feel two wrongs make a right. I think by the end of the cartoon saga most Brits realised how there isn't reallt a freedom of expression, there are always limits and regulations and things that should never be said
Reply

lavikor201
09-01-2006, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

It is clear and pls dont put hate in "" ,it is is real hate and not ambiguos.
the west is fearful and hates Islam.

There are many muslim in the western world either due to immigration or due to the western coutnries low birth rate or converts.

does that make them or give the right for the western coutnries to hate Islam?

Or why do they hate Islam?

As i have said,this pictures made by Iran to test the west is clear,it show their hateful stance and show their hate of Islam clearly,and in their cowardice they shield themsevles behind "free speech"
Does the Quran give you the right to hate western lifestyle?
Reply

QuranStudy
09-01-2006, 06:58 PM
Does the Quran give you the right to hate western lifestyle?
Define "Western lifestyle" please.
Reply

wilberhum
09-01-2006, 07:01 PM
the west is fearful and hates Islam.
Does the West fear and hate Islam, or Muslims that want to kill us.
I think it is the latter.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Does the Quran give you the right to hate western lifestyle?

Salaam,

what an inane question..

First off,the quran does not have western lifestle and secondly,pls dont follow the warmogners path of WHY DO TEHY AHTE US,,BEcasue of democracy..

Laughable..

I do not hate any lifestyle but for this case Iran has shown clearly to all westerna dn western supporter of they hyprocrisy of their excuses.

Freedom of Speech.

hyprocrisy
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Does the West fear and hate Islam, or Muslims that want to kill us.
I think it is the latter.
Salaa,

Becasue of western fear they prejudged and attacked muslim nation or empowerd third parties to abuse musoim.

and when they are faced with the repurcussion they ask themselves,,WHY DO THEY HATE US?

Again the western nation do not wish to see their fingers are casuing the problem,,they just want to blame and be the victims while theya re the aggresors..
Reply

lavikor201
09-01-2006, 07:12 PM
Again the western nation do not wish to see their fingers are casuing the problem,,they just want to blame and be the victims while theya re the aggresors..
Who was the first agressor who started a war between the west and islam? I have a date that may suprise you of who began the agression.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Democracy. Alcohol... ect. In Somalia they will lash you for Alcohol. What if your a non-Muslim Somalia? Same punishment. That is unacceptance of western lifestyle.

Salaam,

so western lifestyle mean democracy? Define democracy and wheter west do practise democracy?

And is dringking alchohol a bastion of democracy?
In the US rape occur every 3 minutes,,is that also a sign of democracy?
Or maybe incest and alternative lifestyle?

well i suppose in Israel beign of alternative lifestyle is OK?
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Who was the first agressor who started a war between the west and islam? I have a date that may suprise you of who began the agression.

Salaam,

why dont you post it and then we will know how far your memory stretch or if you rpactise selective amnesia..
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-01-2006, 07:17 PM
Salaam,

since lavikor and wilberhum trulyl want to defend western freedom of speech why dont you both take up Iran challenge?

Iran challenge is that the west only practise free speech when it pleases them..
so why not disprove it,you dislike the picture,but depite that print the pictures and spread it around..

show your democracy and your freedom of speech..

Or wont you..
Reply

lavikor201
09-01-2006, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

so western lifestyle mean democracy? Define democracy and wheter west do practise democracy?

And is dringking alchohol a bastion of democracy?
In the US rape occur every 3 minutes,,is that also a sign of democracy?
Or maybe incest and alternative lifestyle?

well i suppose in Israel beign of alternative lifestyle is OK?
The right to a fair trial is democracy after these things are found. Not just cutting the guys head off.

Iran challenge is that the west only practise free speech when it pleases them..
so why not disprove it,you dislike the picture,but depite that print the pictures and spread it around..
If you support Irans free speach then you support Denmarks as well. Do you support Denmark? if not then supporting Iran proves that your a bigot.
Reply

wilberhum
09-01-2006, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

since lavikor and wilberhum trulyl want to defend western freedom of speech why dont you both take up Iran challenge?

Iran challenge is that the west only practise free speech when it pleases them..
so why not disprove it,you dislike the picture,but depite that print the pictures and spread it around..

show your democracy and your freedom of speech..

Or wont you..
Western Democracy is like Islamic Countries in that they are not pure at what there named for.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-01-2006, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Democracy. Alcohol... ect. In Somalia they will lash you for Alcohol. What if your a non-Muslim Somalia? Same punishment. That is unacceptance of western lifestyle.
Islam supports democracy. Caliphs were selected democratically. I do, however, vehemently oppose legalizing alcohol. Alcohol is the bane of society. People who drink alcohol are not only harming themselves, but are also adversely affecting society. Those who drink deserve to be lashed. That's how you maintain order.

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
You need a life.
Apparently you also need an education. Do you know what an Agnostic is?
Or is it a case that you don’t read.
Agnostics are as immoral as atheists. Vile creatures ;)

format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Who was the first agressor who started a war between the west and islam? I have a date that may suprise you of who began the agression.
Israel?? The Pope?? I believe its the former.

format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
The right to a fair trial is democracy after these things are found. Not just cutting the guys head off.
In that case, Israel is far from being a democracy!

format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
If you support Irans free speach then you support Denmarks as well. Do you support Denmark? if not then supporting Iran proves that your a bigot.
I support restriction of freedom so that order is maintained. This includes insulting other religions.
Reply

i_m_tipu
09-01-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
If you support Irans free speach then you support Denmarks as well. Do you support Denmark? if not then supporting Iran proves that your a bigot.
i don't think any muslim or non muslim not supporting the free speech of true speech.

debate on this issue: is it true or lie
if lie than it cannot be supported by any mean especially on sensitive issue.

Holocaust cartoon fair and denmark’s so called free speech on the prophet Muhammad cannot be compared. These r almost appositive things.

even thou i believe any sensitive thing should be encouraged.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-01-2006, 09:26 PM
The biggest similarity is that theyre both harmful. Just because one is quicker in hurting u doesnt make one better than the other.
Reply

Muslim-Gyal
09-01-2006, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Agreed here.
Yeah exactly!!
Reply

Muezzin
09-01-2006, 09:33 PM
I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I've noticed that certain members are coming close to personally insulting each other, and have started talking about subjects that do not pertain to the topic at hand. Therefore, I have deleted those posts and ask that members refrain from going off-topic, and show common courtesy to one another while posting.
Reply

Jayda
09-01-2006, 09:42 PM
why would any country want to contribute something like this to the world...
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-02-2006, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
The right to a fair trial is democracy after these things are found. Not just cutting the guys head off.



If you support Irans free speach then you support Denmarks as well. Do you support Denmark? if not then supporting Iran proves that your a bigot.

salaam,,

A fair trial,wow,,trulyl is that all a democracy stand for?

and when you say cutting of heads,do you also abhor the western murder by lethal injection or gassing?
Beheading iby islamic law is fast and painless,how about lethal injection and gassing,,ahve you ever witnesses?
And do you know of how many people have been given JUSTICE due to skin colour in the US?

Katrina is the ebst expale, see a balck family and white family both searching for food,,the white family is eking out a living,,the black are thieves..


And i do not support western idea of free speech,which abuse those whom they hate.

No ethic no morality nor any decency.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-02-2006, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Western Democracy is like Islamic Countries in that they are not pure at what there named for.

Salaam,

so thank for showing your hyprocrisy,for not supporting free speech.

and for actually thinking that western democracy is not all that it is cracked out to be.

And finally,can you tell me of one Islamic coutnry that follow shariah as it is meant?

sauid,most here will not say yes..

any more..
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-02-2006, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
The biggest similarity is that theyre both harmful. Just because one is quicker in hurting u doesnt make one better than the other.

Salaam,

Yes agreed,it is ahrmful but again it is the itent of the Iranin to show the duplicity of the western mantra of FREE SPEECH.

As i said before,with this definitive stroke,,,the west is taught RESPECT.
Reply

Muezzin
09-02-2006, 05:15 PM
I honestly think this thread has outlived its usefulness. The cartoons opened to little attention, and this thread itself is rapidly detereorating. Therefore, I have decided to close this thread.
Reply

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