/* */

PDA

View Full Version : What does this verse mean?



lavikor201
08-17-2006, 11:15 PM
This is in no way a shot at the Quran or anything. Maybe one of the knowledgable posters such as Ansar Al Adr can help me out. Does this verse claim that Jews are idolators?



They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided." Say thou: "Nay the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (Surah 2:135)

Waqaloo koonoo hoodan aw nasaratahtadoo qul bal millata ibraheema haneefan wamakana mina almushrikeena



I don't understand how you can call a Jew an idolator because once a Jew worships an idol or does not accept that there is a G-d. Then he is no longer a Jew in religious terms. Maybe he is a Jew culturaly but not Religiously. And he is not accepted as one.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
therebbe
08-17-2006, 11:40 PM
Interesting verse. Might generate some interesting discussion as well. Are you sure it is the correct verse and not mistranslated. I hate it when the Torah is misquoted or they get many words wrong, so I assume Muslims hate that when people butcher the Quran as well.

Did you get it from a 'Pro-Islam' or at least an unbiased source?
Reply

QuranStudy
08-17-2006, 11:41 PM
And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.
Reply

lavikor201
08-17-2006, 11:46 PM
Did you get it from a 'Pro-Islam' or at least an unbiased source?
www.muslimaccess.com

I assume this is an Islamic source, just look at the website. Quran study has a pretty close version of the verse as well.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Woodrow
08-17-2006, 11:50 PM
I am far from being a Qur'anic scholar. I find that Ayyattt to be quite interesting. I believe if you look at a few of the ayyatts that preced and follow it it may make a little more sense. I colored one part red that I belive is a significant part of understanding what is said. It is very difficult to attempt to explain one or 2 ayyatts, without trying to explain the entire surah. Hopefully Ansar or on of the others that are more knowledgable will give more insight for you.

:133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)." S P C
2:134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case! S P C

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." S P C
2:136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." S P

2:137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
Reply

QuranStudy
08-17-2006, 11:55 PM
I would also like to know the exact meaning behind the verse. Clearly, the Jews are not being referred to as idolaters since Abraham was not an idolater and were are to follow him. But hopefully we can get an better explanation from a brother more knowlegable.

lavikor201, are you reading the entire of Surah Baqarah? It was one of the most difficult surahs for me to get grasp of (I even bought a book devoted to that one Surah! The historical context for the Surah is also important as about 1/3 of it is devoted to the Children of Israel.
Reply

therebbe
08-17-2006, 11:57 PM
2:137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path
So does this mean that according to the Quran if Jews believe in monothiesm than they are in the right path? Even though they have stated that they compare Judaism to idolating? Or does it mean that Jews must follow the Quran itself and accept Mohammad as a prophet (you believe that) to be on the 'right path' according to the Quran.

For example I believe in Monotheism like all Jews do (we were the first practicing monothiests) but I do not accept Mohammad as a messanger of Hashem or the Quran to be the word of Hashem.

So according to this verse in the Quran am I an 'idolator' or 'on the right path'? Either way, thank you for your awnser Woodrow. It is very important to view the verse included with the verses around it.
Reply

lavikor201
08-18-2006, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
I would also like to know the exact meaning behind the verse. Clearly, the Jews are not being referred to as idolaters since Abraham was not an idolater and were are to follow him. But hopefully we can get an better explanation from a brother more knowlegable.

lavikor201, are you reading the entire of Surah Baqarah? It was one of the most difficult surahs for me to get grasp of (I even bought a book devoted to that one Surah! The historical context for the Surah is also important as about 1/3 of it is devoted to the Children of Israel.
I am trying to. It is pretty tough though. :X I decided to read the Quran to educate myself more on Islam as I did when I read the New Testament a while back to educate myself on Christianity.

I find other religions very interesting and I feel I don't have to accept a book as any sort of truth to read it. :)
Reply

QuranStudy
08-18-2006, 12:03 AM
So does this mean that according to the Quran if Jews believe in monothiesm than they are in the right path? Even though they have stated that they compare Judaism to idolating? Or does it mean that Jews must follow the Quran itself and accept Mohammad as a prophet (you believe that) to be on the 'right path' according to the Quran.
Jews can live righteous live and follow their faith and still go to heaven.
Reply

Woodrow
08-18-2006, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
I am trying to. It is pretty tough though. :X I decided to read the Quran to educate myself more on Islam as I did when I read the New Testament a while back to educate myself on Christianity.

I find other religions very interesting and I feel I don't have to accept a book as any sort of truth to read it. :)
Baqarah is the longest surah. It is not really a difficult one but it is lengthy and everything in it must be taken into consideration when even refering to one ayyat.

Like all things, it is impossible to form a solid understanding, unless all references within the writing are understood. I would not attempt to say that I fully understand Surah 2. I do have my own opinions, but I feel it is much better a person seek the advice of a scholar and also read with their own eyes.
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 12:58 AM
Baqarah is the longest surah.
I could tell when he mentioned the it was the '135 verse' of the second chapter. :)
Reply

جوري
08-18-2006, 01:05 AM
I believe that some Jews are considered idolaters... did not some Jews take a golden calf for a God at some point? correct me if I am wrong but there are tons of Jewish sects as there are in Christianity and Islam.... you said before you don't believe in Ezra as a son of God, yet I read and heard otherwise from other Jews... I used to think they were all the same, but my lab partner in under grad who looked Hasidic didn't believe in the current secular state of Israel, yet I have met others who ridiculed him and mocked him and didn't think he was a "true" Jew.... so who knows?... I think it is safe to assume that even in Islam there are some sects which border upon idolatry, the minute you stray from the fundamentals? My take... and I am not a scholar
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 01:16 AM
did not some Jews take a golden calf for a God at some point?
No. They were the Hebrew people at this point and this was before we recieved the Torah. After we recieved the Torah, G-d's word, then we became a religion and all those who worshiped the calf were not part of this or they beged for forgiveness and were forgivin by Moshe.

correct me if I am wrong but there are tons of Jewish sects as there are in Christianity and Islam....
Not really. There are the Misnagdim and the Chassidic. In the Misnagdim there are 3 different types of outlooks on the Torah (Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox movements.) In the Chassidic world they all go by the same concept but each group has a leader who they say has the most wisdom when it comes to commentaries on the Torah ect...

you said before you don't believe in Ezra as a son of God, yet I read and heard otherwise from other Jews...
According to Jewish law, if you accepted Ezra as the 'Son of G-d' your not really Jewish religious wise. Your an idolator.

I used to think they were all the same, but my lab partner in under grad who looked Hasidic didn't believe in the current secular state of Israel,
Many Chassidic believe that the State of Israel should be run by Jewish law and not Moral and Western Law. The more 'Liberal' and 'Secular' Jews say no because Israel has more than 1 religion and we should not force our law on them. It is a big debate.

My take... and I am not a scholar
It is an interesting take, and you make some valid points and reasonings in your post. I'd give you reps but I am not allowed to for 24 hours. :cry:
Reply

جوري
08-18-2006, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
No. They were the Hebrew people at this point and this was before we recieved the Torah. After we recieved the Torah, G-d's word, then we became a religion and all those who worshiped the calf were not part of this or they beged for forgiveness and were forgivin by Moshe.
This 2nd chapter is actually entitled "the calf"... that is what Albaqra means....
Twice I believe the calf is mentioned in this chapter...
once about the this story......
The Story of Israelites and the Cow - The Pious Man and His Son



Moses (pbuh) stayed among his people calling them to Allah. It seems their souls were uneasy in a way that the observant eye could not mistake. Their obstinacy and chattering about what has become known as "The Story of the Cow" was unwarranted. This topic did not need so many negotiations between Moses and the people, nor did it need all their bias.
It was said that among the children of Israel there lived a pious man. He was poor but very careful about how he earned the living; it had to be honestly earned. Everything that he did was done for the sake of Allah, never for selfish gain. On his deathbed his last words were: "O Allah, I place my wife, my little son, and my only possession, a calf, in Your care." Strangely, he asked his wife to lead the calf to the forest and leave it there. He did this because he did not trust the children of Israel, for they were a selfish and greedy folk.

After a few years when the boy had grown up, his mother told him: "Your father has left you a calf in the trust of Allah. It must have grown into a cow by now." The son was surprised. He did not know of any calf all these years and asked his mother where it was. She replied: "Be like your father and say: 'I trust in Allah,' then go look for it."

With a rope in his hand, he went to the forest and prostrated himself before Allah: "O Allah, Lord of Abraham and Jacob and Job, return to me my father's trust. " As he raised his head, he saw a cow coming towards him. It stopped submissively beside him. He tied the rope around its neck and led it to his house. The cow would not allow anyone else come near it except the young man.

The youth was as pious as his father. He earned his living by cutting wood. Whatever he earned he divided into three equal portions; one he gave to his mother, one he used for his needs, and the last he gave as charity. His nights, too, were divided into three parts; during the early part of the night he helped his mother, the middle part he devoted to the worship of Allah, and during the last part he rested.

The People Ask Questions About a Cow


About this a wealthy man died, leaving behind an only son, who inherited his father's wealth. His cousins envied his good fortune, and secretly killed him so that they could inherit it.

The dead boy's other relatives came to the Prophet Moses (pbuh) and asked his help in tracing the boy's murderer. Moses instructed them to slaughter a cow, remove its tongue and place it on the corpse. This would reveal the murderer, he told them. They accused Moses of joking. He replied: "Allah forbid that I be foolish!" They questioned him about the type of cow they should slaughter, and he said: "This cow is neither young nor mature, but in between the two conditions, so do as you have been commanded."

Instead of following his direction, they asked him more questions. "What color must it be?"

He replied: "Verily, it is yellow in color."

They still were not satisfied with his answer and asked for more details. Moses replied: "It is an unyoked cow; it does not plow the soil nor water the tilth, and is entirely without marks."

Moses' People Find the Right Cow


They went out in search of such a cow. The only one that matched the description was the one owned by the orphaned youth. They met him on the way and asked the price for which he would sell his cow. He told them he would have to consult his mother first, so they accompanied him to his house and offered her three gold coins. She refused their offer, saying that the cow was worth much more.

They were on increasing their offer and the mother kept on refusing. Finally the urged the son to speak to his mother to be reasonable. He told them: "I will not sell the cow without my mother's approval, even if you offered me its skin filled with gold!" On hearing this, his mother smiled and said: "Let that be the price: its skin filled with gold." They realized that no other cow would do; they had to have it at any price. They agreed to buy the cow and paid with its skin filled with gold.

and the second time is the story of the golden calf so if you were really interested in further explanation I'd ask a scholar but this is the best of my own understanding :w: :)
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 02:08 AM
The Israelites who worshiped the cow though unless they basically (i hate this word but I will use it) repented, they never became Jews.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-18-2006, 02:23 AM
Hi lavikor,
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
This is in no way a shot at the Quran or anything. Maybe one of the knowledgable posters such as Ansar Al Adr can help me out. Does this verse claim that Jews are idolators?

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided." Say thou: "Nay the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah." (Surah 2:135)
The verse states 2:135 They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the Mushrikîn."

Mushrikîn are the people who commit shirk. Shirk refers to associating partners with God, by giving them divine rights or attributes. What this verse is saying is that when someone asks Muslims to follow religion X or religion Y, Muslims should point out that they are just following the simple message of all the Prophets, to worship God alone without any partners. This verse is saying that as the Islamic message is the same as that of all the Prophets (i.e. to not associate partners with God), Christians and Jews should have no objections to it. Abraham is accepted by Muslims, Christians and Jews and his path was the simple path of pure and pristine monotheism.
I don't understand how you can call a Jew an idolator because once a Jew worships an idol or does not accept that there is a G-d.
Contrary to attributing idolatry to Judaism, the Qur'an is pointing out that Muslims are following the pure and pristine monotheism that was preached by the very Prophets the Jews uphold, so how can anyone possibly object or oppose it? Rather, when they see that this message is the same message as that brought by their Prophets there should be no hesitation in accepting it. On a related note, (since I noticed this was brought up) Islam states that one must accept the Prophet sent to them in order to attain salvation. So if someone receives the message of Islam they need to believe in Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 02:30 AM
So if someone receives the message of Islam they need to believe in Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
So does that mean that Islam holds you can only go to heaven if you accept the prophet Mohammad? In Judaism, any gentile (Non-Jew) will go to heaven if you follow the Seven Laws of Noah and live a righteous life. Our Rabbi's tell us to stress to all other nations that they must follow the Seven Laws of Noah. That is why Judaism makes it hard for you to convert (takes over a year).

Are there similar laws like this in Islam or is it one of those religions where you will basically 'burn in the fires of hell' if you don't accept it. Like some other religions we all know.

Overall though good explanation of the verse. I see it in a new light now, that I did not see it in before. Thank you.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-18-2006, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
So does that mean that Islam holds you can only go to heaven if you accept the prophet Mohammad?
If someone recieves the message of Islam properly, then they can not reject it with impunity. When God sent Prophet Moses it was incumbent on his people to follow him and believe in him. The same is true for Prophet Jesus. The same is true for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon all of them. God does not send a prophet for no reason; He sends them to guide people back to the original message of all the prophets. There really is no reason for someone to reject and disbelieve in the Prophet.

Nevertheless, if someone does not adequately recieve the message of Islam then they will be judged according to their circumstances. God knows best what was in their heart, we don't.

A related, though very long, article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

Regards
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 02:58 AM
If someone recieves the message of Islam properly, then they can not reject it with impunity.
Oh? Is this a proven study? Or is it just a statement? No offense, but I seriously doubt that.

When God sent Prophet Moses it was incumbent on his people to follow him and believe in him. The same is true for Prophet Jesus. The same is true for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon all of them. God does not send a prophet for no reason;
But G-d warns us of false prophets. He warns us that false prophets will lead people astray.

There really is no reason for someone to reject and disbelieve in the Prophet.
There is a huge reason to reject them if they are fake.

Nevertheless, if someone does not adequately recieve the message of Islam then they will be judged according to their circumstances. God knows best what was in their heart, we don't.
You never completly awnsered my question. Another member has told me that if you are righteous and follow Judaism then under Islam you will go to heaven. I was suprised because Judaism is similar in this aspect. Are you saying this is not true, and it is all dependant on if you recieved the message of Islam properly? I'm sort of lost between two different explanations of the same topic.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-18-2006, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Oh? Is this a proven study? Or is it just a statement? No offense, but I seriously doubt that.
You asked me to explain the Islamic perspective not to provide empirical evidence. Has that changed?

From the Islamic perspective, you are accountable for accepting the prophets sent to you.
But G-d warns us of false prophets. He warns us that false prophets will lead huge amounts of the world astray.

There is a huge reason to reject them if they are fake.
Of course, but the explicit supposition is that they are fake. If they are not fake then there is no reason to reject them. That is why God gave us the faculties of reason and logic to investigate and search for the truth.

Think about it this way, why would Islamic doctrine be built around the supposition that it is false?? That's not logically coherent.
You never completly awnsered my question.
My apologies.
Another member has told me that if you are righteous and follow Judaism then under Islam you will go to heaven. I was suprised because Judaism is similar in this aspect. Are you saying this is not true, and it is all dependant on if you recieved the message of Islam properly?
Yes, it is not true that someone who disbelieves in Prophet Muhammad and thinks he is false will go to paradise. If that was the case, why would the Prophet have bothered preaching at all? If you are a righteous person, God will guide you to the truth. Why would God allow a righteous believing servant of His, who craves for the truth, to be mislead and come to reject God's Messenger? That's not consistent with the concept of God as the Most Just.

Regards :)
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 03:20 AM
You asked me to explain the Islamic perspective not to provide empirical evidence. Has that changed?
I was not sure if that was the Islamic prespective or just a statement.

Of course, but the explicit supposition is that they are fake. If they are not fake then there is no reason to reject them. That is why God gave us the faculties of reason and logic to investigate and search for the truth.
Good awsner. I completly accept that also. The only difference is that Judaism believes that Mohammad was a false prophet because he did not meet the requirements set by G-d, while Islam believes that he was the final prophet of G-d.

Yes, it is not true that someone who disbelieves in Prophet Muhammad and thinks he is false will go to paradise. If that was the case, why would the Prophet have bothered preaching at all?
Alright I understand where you are coming from now.

This is where Judaism and Islam seperate as we just ask people to be righteous and live good lives and accept G-d as there creator, while you proclaim the need to accept a prophet for the right to go to heaven.

If you are a righteous person, God will guide you to the truth. Why would God allow a righteous believing servant of His, who craves for the truth, to be mislead and come to reject God's Messenger?
Are you saying there are no righteous people on this earth that craved for the truth of G-d's message, and died a non-Muslim? I so, I would have to say that I utterly disagree with you. Now maybe your counter to this will be they were not given 'the message of Islam' properly, and that can probably be your only response because there were at least in my mind (I cannot speak for you) a lot of people who did not accept Mohammad as a prophet who lived righteous lives and craved G-d's true message.

Thank you for your time and your detailed responses.
Reply

sameer
08-18-2006, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe

Are you saying there are no righteous people on this earth that craved for the truth of G-d's message, and died a non-Muslim? I so, I would have to say that I utterly disagree with you. Now maybe your counter to this will be they were not given 'the message of Islam' properly, and that can probably be your only response because there were at least in my mind (I cannot speak for you) a lot of people who did not accept Mohammad as a prophet who lived righteous lives and craved G-d's true message.

Thank you for your time and your detailed responses.
Peace, I am in no way as knowledgeble as the other brothers here..nor do i think i can explain things as good, but i will try to comment on this last question. insha Allah

It depends on what u call a righteous life. It is possilbe for a person to live what is percieved as a righteous life (eg. giving charity, being kind etc.) but he didnt do it in the name of God, meaning that he did it to be recognised as a good person. Then he would have gotten his reward in this world....- which is to be recognized as a righteous person, and nothing in the here after.

It is also possbile for an idolator to lead a righteous life, but still he does it in the name of someone other than God......or he does in in tribute to one of his Gods. This person would not get his reward in the hereafter, for he is still an idolater and he would recieve punishment for it.

Similarly he may be a righteous person "searching for truth" and craved Gods message, but how would he really know what is Gods true message? Rather he may crave Gods message that "suits" him and allows him to live the life he wants to live - not necessarily the way that God wants him to live. To me person is not seeking Gods message at all.


This aspect of Judahism confuses me - where u dont have to be a Jew to be in heaven as long as u follow the 7 laws, so then, whats the purpose of being a jew? If i dont live as a jew, then am i not denying some aspect of God??? Dosent this make me a non believer? God would reward me for being a non believer?
Reply

therebbe
08-18-2006, 04:37 PM
It is possilbe for a person to live what is percieved as a righteous life (eg. giving charity, being kind etc.) but he didnt do it in the name of God, meaning that he did it to be recognised as a good person.
There are many Jews who live righteous lives and give to charity and are very kind in the name of G-d. Judaism teaches to be righteous in the name of G-d.


This aspect of Judahism confuses me - where u dont have to be a Jew to be in heaven as long as u follow the 7 laws, so then, whats the purpose of being a jew?
If you are born a Jew, then you must follow the 613 laws. There is not turning back. You were born into the covenant that the Jewish people established with G-d. This is why it takes a year to convert to Judaism. You are accepting all 613 laws and converting into the covanent.

If i dont live as a jew, then am i not denying some aspect of God???
If you follow the Seven Laws of Noah then you are following the the Torah. The Torah commands gentiles to follow Seven Laws and if you follow them then in essence you are following the Torah. To follow the Seven laws and live a righteous life cannot be done if you follow other religions though, unless the religion basically mimics the teachings of the Torah and is not idolatry.

The Quran basically mimics the teachings of the Torah when it comes to the Seven Laws of Noah. If you follow Muslims law, live a righteous life, and do not hate the Jews the people who have a covanent with G-d, then you will be granted access to heaven!

God would reward me for being a non believer?
If you follow the Seven Laws of Noah you are a believer! The Torah came first therefore it is irrelevant if you believe you are following the Laws of Noah or not. You are following the Quran which obligates you to follow the Seven Laws of Noah.

Our wisest Rabbi's explain that the spread of Islam throught the Gentile world is a great thing! It encourages more people to follow the Seven Laws of Noah and live righteous lives! If you follow Islam correctly than you are following the Seven Laws of Noah!!!!

Therefore it is G-d's will that Islam continue to grow to give the non-Jews of this world a chance to go to heaven and accept the Torahs commands of them!!!! Good job Islam!
Reply

QuranStudy
08-18-2006, 05:15 PM
Muslims believe believe righteous Jews will enter heaven.

Christians believe Jews will never go to heaven.
Reply

nimrod
08-19-2006, 03:22 AM
QuranStudy, it appears that Ansar disagrees with you.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

lavikor201
08-19-2006, 09:40 PM
Thank you for helping me understand this verse. I just finished the 3rd chapter and I am moving on. Its a good read I guess. Probably is much more enticing in Arabic.
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2006, 09:49 PM
Lavikor, the Qur'an you are studying is it an English translation or a Hebrew translation. I would suspect an approved Hebrew translation would be much closer to the Qur'an than an English translation is.
Reply

dougmusr
08-20-2006, 01:36 AM
Christians believe Jews will never go to heaven.
On the contrary, Christians believe any one who wants to can go to heaven.
Reply

جوري
08-20-2006, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
On the contrary, Christians believe any one who wants to can go to heaven.
What does one have to do according to christianity to go to heaven? In my catholic school it was popular opinion that only catholics are permitted to go to heaven.... which irked our English teacher who was upset for all the budhists... I am curious of your point of view on that catholic belief........
Reply

Woodrow
08-20-2006, 01:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
On the contrary, Christians believe any one who wants to can go to heaven.
Interesting point. I never met a person who did not want to go to heaven.


OOOOOPs, come to think of it virtually every religion says that. But, the qualifiying statement is you have to only accept (this, or that). In the case of Christians they would say that you do not have to accept Christianity to go to Heaven, you only have to accept Christ(a.s.) as your Savior. Or the way I hear it. You do not have to accept Christianity, you only have to become a Christian.
Reply

dougmusr
08-20-2006, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
What does one have to do according to christianity to go to heaven? In my catholic school it was popular opinion that only catholics are permitted to go to heaven.... which irked our English teacher who was upset for all the budhists... I am curious of your point of view on that catholic belief........
Here's a quick outline of what I believe the Bible teaches. Using the word FAITH as an acrostic.

Forgiveness - all mankind is sinful and needs God's forgiveness.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace"

Available - as even Islam teaches, Christ was sent with the Gospel, or good news. The good news is that Christ's sacrifice purchased this forgiveness for all mankind.

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

This forgiveness, though available, is not given automatically.

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Impossible - why is heaven not automatic? God is Holy, and it is impossible for Him to allow sin into heaven. The problem again is that we all have sinned.

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Turn - We must repent or turn.

From our sin:
Lk 13:3 "... unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

To Christ:
Ro 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Heaven - is eternal life

It starts here:
Jn 10:10 "...I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."

And goes on forever:
Jn 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

I am a (gasp) Southern Baptist. I believe there will be Catholics in Heaven providing they have trusted in Christ for their salvation.
Reply

dougmusr
08-20-2006, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Interesting point. I never met a person who did not want to go to heaven.


OOOOOPs, come to think of it virtually every religion says that. But, the qualifiying statement is you have to only accept (this, or that). In the case of Christians they would say that you do not have to accept Christianity to go to Heaven, you only have to accept Christ(a.s.) as your Savior. Or the way I hear it. You do not have to accept Christianity, you only have to become a Christian.
Why don't you come to my church and I'll go to your mosque? I'm from Round Rock, and go to Great Hills Baptist. I'll meet you at the door tomorrow morning if you care to go. Just let me know. Service starts at 10am.
Reply

Skillganon
08-21-2006, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I am a (gasp) Southern Baptist. I believe there will be Catholics in Heaven providing they have trusted in Christ for their salvation.
How about trusting the creator i.e. "Allah" the God of Abraham, Moses e.t.c (pbut)?
Reply

Link
08-22-2006, 06:38 PM
Salam

My understanding to what the Quran says, is that if anyone regardless of his sect, believes in God and submits to him and worships him, he will be in paradise. At the same time the Quran condemns people who reject things with no knowledge and deny God's signs and also forbids following what we have no knowledge of.

So if a person rejects Mohammad (pbuh), or Isa (as), this a huge sin, and wil bring you to hell. However, if someone neither denies or accepts, but does not know, and acts sincerely towards God to what he knows and submits his soul to God, then he will be in paradise. However, if the signs are clearly shown to him, no one has the right to not accept then.

So rejecting Mohammad (pbuh) will bring you to hell, but not accepting might not depending on the person's situation, intentions, and sincerity.

Quran is very much against sectarian thinking, to think "we are of this sect, we are people of paradise", "we are of this sect, we are God's friends", this sectarian condemnation extends to us now, salafi, sunnis and shias all putting this attitude jews and christians had. The reality is paradise can be for any of mankind, it depends on what your souls earn, not what sect you belong too, and whether you truly follow the straight path. Having said that, no one has the right to deny any of God's communications, that puts you in hell and no sincere God-fearing person would do that.

Guidance is the guidance of God, he promised it would come from him, so everyone must try to find it and clings to God's rope.

ws
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-24-2023, 09:04 PM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-25-2012, 11:40 AM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-12-2011, 10:09 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-08-2008, 03:00 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!