Response to a stubborn disbeliever

[- Qatada -]

Response to a stubborn disbeliever

Question:

Did you know your religion was founded and developed by Catholics? I know Muhammad was your Christ, but let me tell you friend the God you know is not the God of Gods but the Devil of Devils.



Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

We do not wish to respond to slander in kind, but we will answer you, you disbeliever, with quotes from the Word of God (the Qur’aan), if you even believe in the existence of God.


O disbeliever, we debate with you in the words addressed by Allaah (the Arabic name of the One True God) to the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and the disbelievers. He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary) was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word (‘Be!’ – and he was), which He bestowed on Maryam, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One (God). Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of Affairs.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:171]



“Say: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allaah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient [to Allaah])?”

[al-Maa’idah 5:59]



“How can you disbelieve in Allaah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.”

[al-Baqarah 2:28]



“… whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away…

Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His messengers and wish to make a distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, ‘We believe in some but not in others,’ and wish to adopt a way in between,

They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136, 150-151]

O disbeliever, do you think that you can do any harm to Allaah by your disbelief? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But if you disbelieve, then unto Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, and Allaah is Ever Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:131]

You will only increase in hatefulness and loss in the sight of Allaah, you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, the worst of moving (living) creatures before Allaah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.”

[al-Anfaal 8:55]

O disbeliever, are you not going to die? Or do you doubt that as well? Do you know what your position will be when you die, if you die in a state of disbelief? Listen:

“And if you could see when the angels take away the souls of those who disbelief (at death), they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): ‘Taste the punishment of the blazing Fire.’”

[al-Anfaal 8:50]

O disbeliever, woe to you from what will happen to you on the Day of Resurrection! Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… so woe to the disbelievers from the meeting of a great Day (i.e., the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire).”

[Maryam 19:37]

We have an appointment with you after death, on the Day of Reckoning:

“On that day those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)] will wish that they were buried in the earth, but they will never be able to hide a single fact from Allaah.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:42]

O disbeliever, do you know what Allaah has prepared for you if you die in a state of disbelief? Read:

“And whosoever does not believe in Allaah and His Messenger [Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)], then verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers a blazing Fire.”

[al-Fath 48:13]

“Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allaah and of the angels and mankind, combined.”

[al-Baqarah 2:161]

“Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from any one of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:91]

“Surely, those who reject Faith, neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allaah. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide.”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:116]

Do you know what you will have to drink in Hell if you die as a disbeliever? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve.”

[Yoonus 10:5]

Do you know what you will have to wear on that Day? Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… Then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads.”

[al-Hajj 22:19]

Do you know what kind of punishment you will endure?

“Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Signs, We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allaah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:56]

“If only those who disbelieved knew (the time) when they will not be able to ward off the Fire from their faces, nor from their backs; and they will not be helped.”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:39]

O reviler, maybe on the Day of Judgement you will wish that you had been a Muslim in this world. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Perhaps (often) will those who disbelieve wish that they were Muslims.”

[al-Hijr 15:2]

O disbeliever, you are among those who have disbelieved and done wrong. Allaah says concerning you and your like (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily those who disbelieve and do wrong, Allaah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:168]

“Those who disbelieve and deny our signs are those who will be the dwellers of the Hell-fire.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:10]

There you will have no life, but neither will you be able to find any respite in death. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But those who disbelieve, for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever!”

[Faatir 35:36]

O disbeliever, have the glad tidings of a punishment from which you will not be able to ransom yourself:

“Verily, those who disbelieve, if they had all that is in the earth, and as much again therewith to ransom themselves thereby from the torment on the Day of Resurrection, it would never be accepted of them, and theirs would be a painful torment.”

[al-Maa’idah 5:36]

O disbeliever, if you want to mock Islam and its followers, this is nothing new:

“Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allaah’s Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allaah gives (of His bounty on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit.”

[al-Baqarah 2:212]

O disbeliever, if you think that the light of Islam will be extinguished, then you are living in a world of illusions. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“They (the disbelievers) want to extinguish Allaah’s Light with their mouths, but Allaah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate (it).”

[al-Tawbah 9:32]

O disbeliever, do you know that you are cursed if you do not submit to Allaah, so save yourself from this curse:

“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell).”

[al-Ahzaab 33:64]

There is still time for you to repent from sin and transgression, so long as you are still alive. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).”

[al-Anfaal 8:38]

Whoever is guided, then it is for his own benefit, and whoever disbelieves, then Allaah has no need of His creation. The curse of Allaah be upon the disbelievers.


Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

[dougmusr]

“O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary) was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word (‘Be!’ – and he was), which He bestowed on Maryam, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One (God). Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of Affairs.”

[al-Nisa’ 4:171]

Are the words in parenthesis in the original arabic? If not, how is the translator not guilty of the Quranic injunction about altering God's Word?

002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[QuranStudy]

Unlike other faiths, in Islam God words is always intact.

The translation may be slightly distorted by the scripture itself is not.

[dougmusr]

Unlike other faiths, in Islam God words is always intact.

The translation may be slightly distorted by the scripture itself is not.

The problem is that the translation is distorted to shift the interpretation of the original arabic verse in an attempt to deceive those who don't know arabic into believing the Quran says something it does not. Certainly God did not intend to say that those who change His Word in the original language were guilty of sin while those who mistranslate it were not.

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[KAding]

"you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures". :cry: :offended:

[KAding]

Whats the point of this? What is expected from me? I do not believe. That is not necesarrily a rational choice, I simply don't believe. I don't feel God and I don't see why Islam would be anymore true than any other religion. For me there is no option to believe, because I don't. How could I possibly make myself believe? How do these insults and threats help me in this?

[KAding]

Thanks Fi_Sabilillah

Thanks for what? For the knowledge that all those who disbelieve are the lowest living beings on this planet? Or for the knowledge that my "garments of fire will be cut out for me" and "boiling water will be poured down over my head"?

[جوري]

Kading.
I am not sure I understand......if none of these "threats" mean anything to you, why is it, you are upset enough to reply to this post? You don't believe therefore nothing is expected of or from you ... no one (human) will persecute you for your beliefs or lack thereof ... it is something between you and the universe ... what is in the book is an admonition for those who reflect... each soul is reponsible for its own deeds, so if it means nothing to you... don't make much of it.....

[MusLiM 4 LiFe]

Whats the point of this? What is expected from me? I do not believe. That is not necesarrily a rational choice, I simply don't believe. I don't feel God and I don't see why Islam would be anymore true than any other religion. For me there is no option to believe, because I don't. How could I possibly make myself believe? How do these insults and threats help me in this?

ccn i ask u sumtingz if u dnt mind.. why dnt u blive in god? bcuz u dont feel God? hav u tried 2 sit dwn and think abt dis? isnt better to blive in God than not 2? whats rong wid blieve in Allah? give me good valid bad points please.. they arent insultz and threats..!!! theyr just wht our lord told us in the Qur'aan abt the kafirs (disbelievers)

[Woodrow]

The problem is that the translation is distorted to shift the interpretation of the original arabic verse in an attempt to deceive those who don't know arabic into believing the Quran says something it does not. Certainly God did not intend to say that those who change His Word in the original language were guilty of sin while those who mistranslate it were not.

Keep in mind no translation is the Qur'an. I believe most muslim when speaking to a non-Arabic speaking, Non-Muslim, would do his/her best to make that understood. Most will explain that there are several very good translations, yet none of them give an accurate meaning in all sentences.

Arabic simply can not be translated accuratly into another language. Any translation is biased an the attempted views by the translator to Explain it in the other language. For a non-Arabic speaker to get a close concept of the Qur'an it is best to view several trasnslation and then seek the opinions of an Ababic speaking Muslim.

To a person desiring to be Muslim, it is their responsibility to learn all they can about Islam from all possible sources. And then make their choice from knowledge they have sought and found themselves. All of us will admit that we do not have the ability to translate purely the Qur'an into your language. We can only state what we believe in terms of your language. We will make mistakes. However, no Muslim would deliberatly use the Qur'an to deceive.

[KAding]

Kading.
I am not sure I understand......if none of these "threats" mean anything to you, why is it, you are upset enough to reply to this post?

I don't know. It just angers me somewhat. It lacks common decency, it simply goes against my values. I don't go around telling people they are scum of the earth and deserve to die the most horrible deaths. I don't expect people to behave like that and neither would I respect a religion that approaches 'disbelievers' in that manner.

You don't believe therefore nothing is expected of or from you ... no one (human) will persecute you for your beliefs or lack thereof ... it is something between you and the universe ... what is in the book is an admonition for those who reflect... each soul is reponsible for its own deeds, so if it means nothing to you... don't make much of it.....

Perhaps you are right. But I just can't help but feel that this post if a piece of simple hate-speech. It lacks any kind of respect. Maybe it should concern you more than me, because surely non-Muslims are more likely to be disgusted than convinced by this? Do you want to guide them to the right path with love or piss them off with these kind of threats and insults?

[KAding]

ccn i ask u sumtingz if u dnt mind.. why dnt u blive in god? bcuz u dont feel God?

Well, yes. I just don't 'feel' God so I can't 'believe' in him at an emotional level. I also don't see any proof of his existance, so I can't believe in him at a rational level either.

hav u tried 2 sit dwn and think abt dis?

Why do you think I'm here? :)

isnt better to blive in God than not 2?

But that won't make anyone believe. Thats the whole problem with this thread. What if I put a knife to your throat and demand you to stop believing? You can't even if you knew your life depended on it! At best you can fake disbelief, but you know you believe. That is no different with these threats of hellfire. I can't make a rational choice to start believing just to be on the 'safe side'. Either you believe in God as your religion describes him, or you don't. You can't threaten people into believing, just like you can't threaten them into disbelieving.

whats rong wid blieve in Allah? give me good valid bad points please..

That is for another threat. My point is merely that this is about the worst and least compassionate approach possible to 'dawa' thinkable. You won't convince people with this. You attract people with love, not this hate.

they arent insultz and threats..!!!

Well, then I'm sure that you won't object when I from now on start referring to Muslim as the "lowest living beings on this planet! Nay, the universe! They will all suffer horrible deaths and deserve it, since they are hateful creatures". Say a Christian would use such language. What would your first reaction to it? Do you think this will convince many Muslims to become Christians?

theyr just wht our lord told us in the Qur'aan abt the kafirs (disbelievers)

Well, I find it totally lacking any kind of respect. I suppose thats why I am not a Muslim. Mind you, I don't blame you, to you it is after all the word of God. I am just amazed it is used to convince disbelievers of the truth of Islam.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I don't know. It just angers me somewhat. It lacks common decency, it simply goes against my values. I don't go around telling people they are scum of the earth and deserve to die the most horrible deaths. I don't expect people to behave like that and neither would I respect a religion that approaches 'disbelievers' in that manner.

Perhaps you are ignoring the fact that the questioner tells Muslims their God is the devil of devils!! Obviously the response to such an individual will be incomparable to someone who asks respectfully and without resorting to such insults.

Regards

[جوري]

I don't know. It just angers me somewhat. It lacks common decency, it simply goes against my values. I don't go around telling people they are scum of the earth and deserve to die the most horrible deaths. I don't expect people to behave like that and neither would I respect a religion that approaches 'disbelievers' in that manner.?

...I don't see a verse that states you are a lowly scum of the earth , and deserve to die a horrible death do you? I make no apologies for of words of God otherwise, whether or not you choose to accept it as such, secondly it is no different than the Judeo-Christian perspective of Pagans and disbelievers? .... No one is burning you at the stake for not believing... it is but an admonition....it clearly states [Yusufali 74:37] To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;- as in it is your choice.....
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ رَهِينَةٌ {38}
[Yusufali 74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.
Again no one is here to tell you where to go or what to do..........
[Yusufali 74:52] Forsooth, each one of them wants to be given scrolls (of revelation) spread out.....[Yusufali 74:54] Nay, this surely is an admonition:.........[Yusufali 74:55] Let any who will, keep it in remembrance!
So at this rate it is clearly stated... this is but a warning... if you wish to take it or leave it... yes God knows each person wishes to be given scrolls of truth... each soul held in pledge for its own deeds.... this is but a reminder.... not you Kading are a lowly scum if it doesn't apply to you then move on and don't be so angry.......

Perhaps you are right. But I just can't help but feel that this post if a piece of simple hate-speech. It lacks any kind of respect. Maybe it should concern you more than me, because surely non-Muslims are more likely to be disgusted than convinced by this? Do you want to guide them to the right path with love or piss them off with these kind of threats and insults?

No it doesn't concern me since I don't take the Quran in fragments to propogate what I wish to assert to people.... I just showed you another passage above that tells you... you are responsible for your own deeds and you'll NOT answer to Men for what you believe or Don't..... different people have different approaches... I just wrote a hadith the other day by Prophet (PBUH) stating "ina aldeen wasi3 fawghil feeh brifq, ina almonbata la ardan qata3 wla th'hran abqa"
translates to.... religion is vast so teach with gentility... he who is harsh has NOT CROSSED LAND, NOT KEPT HIS TRANSPORT..... clearly states the approach we should follow.... if you keep hitting your horse to cross the desert, you will not cross the desert and your horse won't survive the beating.... In less obsecure terms.....you'll find bible thumpers no doubt who will do the same... if you don't do this to hell you go.... truth is I don't know where you are going... no one here knows... I don't know even about my own self; I can try my best and pray for mercy... personally, I can only show you the best to invite you ...or try every verse that will show you of the punishment that will befall you? ... not all people are the same! neither is their approach!... a wise man reads the book in its entirety and makes a sound decision based on his understanding... not someone else's, do you agree? :sister:
:w:

[KAding]

Perhaps you are ignoring the fact that the questioner tells Muslims their God is the devil of devils!! Obviously the response to such an individual will be incomparable to someone who asks respectfully and without resorting to such insults.

Regards

A good point, although I would expect someone with wisdom to not respond in kind and stoop to this level.

Besides, we all know Islam has more to offer to convince people than these threats and insults. At has some strong assets, like it's claim on uncorrupted scriptures and sense of brotherhood and belonging.

[جوري]

A good point, although I would expect someone with wisdom to not respond in kind and stoop to this level.

Besides, we all know Islam has more to offer to convince people than these threats and insults. At has some strong assets, like it's claim on uncorrupted scriptures and sense of brotherhood and belonging.

You wish to not believe, it goes against your principles?... and on some level you enjoy sarcasm as is noted from above text... yet here you are on the Islamic forum? I don't understand.... have you explored why you choose to come here though it all offends you so much?... its asset as you afore mention are subject to incessant ridicule by your person? Are you secretly hoping some truth will reveal itself to you, or conversly hoping that you'll unmask some blinded muslims into the wrong of their ways?

[KAding]

You wish to not believe, it goes against your principles?

? Sorry, were have I said any such thing? I said I don't believe, not that I don't wish to believe. Actually, I think believing would be a wonderful thing, but I don't :).

... and on some level you enjoy sarcasm as is noted from above text...

Sarcasm? What sarcasm are you referring too. I am sometimes sarcastic unfortunately. But I can assure you, there was no sarcasm in my response to Ansar. I really believe those are strong assets. Certainly Islamic sources seem more thrustworthy then Christian texts and the sense of brotherhood, while at a political level is sometimes disturbing, is very attractive at a personal level.

yet here you are on the Islamic forum? I don't understand.... have you explored why you choose to come here though it all offends you so much?

Most things don't offend me. I just found this post a bit vile. I come here to learn about religion and Islam.

... its asset as you afore mention are subject to incessant ridicule by your person? Are you secretly hoping some truth will reveal itself to you, or conversly hoping that you'll unmask some blinded muslims into the wrong of their ways?

No, I fear I am not that social minded. I really am here to educate myself, not others :). Edit: Although I suppose that isn't true, since I wouldn't join into the debate myself then. Fine, I am here to learn and teach to the best of my abilities ;).

[جوري]

alright then my bad...... welcome aboard! and hope your stay is fruitful =)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The problem is that the translation is distorted to shift the interpretation of the original arabic verse in an attempt to deceive those who don't know arabic into believing the Quran says something it does not. Certainly God did not intend to say that those who change His Word in the original language were guilty of sin while those who mistranslate it were not.

If u really thinkso, go learn Arabic then tell me what it says.
The English language does not support a lot of the words in Arabic. Thats why its encouraged to read it in Arabic. But because not everyone can speak it, its fair enuff to read it in English or whatever may be ur language.

[evangel]

In the Bible there are references to hell but the whole of scripture is Jesus wooing his church as a groom would woo his bride. Were He to bring us in by just the fear of hell He wouldn't have a church that chooses God, but people who chose against hell. Would you men out there rather have a bride that wants to spend her life with you or one that takes you because you were the choice that wasn't the worst. Women, who would you rather have for a groom, one who would die for you whether you chose him or not or one that you were pushed into the relationship with? This is where Jesus leaves it to us, our choosing or not choosing Him.

[- Qatada -]

In the Bible there are references to hell but the whole of scripture is Jesus wooing his church as a groom would woo his bride. Were He to bring us in by just the fear of hell He wouldn't have a church that chooses God, but people who chose against hell. Would you men out there rather have a bride that wants to spend her life with you or one that takes you because you were the choice that wasn't the worst. Women, who would you rather have for a groom, one who would die for you whether you chose him or not or one that you were pushed into the relationship with? This is where Jesus leaves it to us, our choosing or not choosing Him.

The same is said about islam. Go anywhere in the Qur'an to find a verse about hellfire, and you'll find a verse regarding paradise right next to it. This way - we know both extremes; for the pious and righteous, and for the evildoers/disbelievers.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Abdulwaheed]

MAy we all be guided to paradise

Ameen

[evangel]

The same is said about islam. Go anywhere in the Qur'an to find a verse about hellfire, and you'll find a verse regarding paradise right next to it. This way - we know both extremes; for the pious and righteous, and for the evildoers/disbelievers.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

But Jesus doesn't do this. Though He does warn of hell, as any parent would warn of the consequences of dangerous activity, He says, "I will stand here and wait. I will let you hear the truth of what I have to say so you may realize the desire I have for you to be with me but the choice is yours."
Would we rather our children choose to do good for good's sake or do good because they may get caught doing evil?

[- Qatada -]

But Jesus doesn't do this. Though He does warn of hell, as any parent would warn of the consequences of dangerous activity, He says, "I will stand here and wait. I will let you hear the truth of what I have to say so you may realize the desire I have for you to be with me but the choice is yours."
Would we rather our children choose to do good for good's sake or do good because they may get caught doing evil?

The example of how the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) explained mankind was the example of a fire in the desert. The flies and the insects (i.e. humans) run towards the fire because they think that it's light. But the Messengers of Allaah are pulling the people away from it (because they know the dangers it will lead to), but the people keep forcing themmselves into it because he/she thinks that it will give him success.. But in reality - the evil things that the person does, it may make them end up in hellfire.


So by telling the person to avoid evil - it will distance them away from the fire. So the messengers warn them to avoid that evil, and if they avoid it - they will go towards the most desirable place, which is paradise.. where they will abide therein forever.

Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. (Qur'an 22:23)

Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[evangel]

The example of how the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) explained mankind was the example of a fire in the desert. The flies and the insects (i.e. humans) run towards the fire because they think that it's light. But the Messengers of Allaah are pulling the people away from it (because they know the dangers it will lead to), but the people keep forcing themmselves into it because he/she thinks that it will give him success.. But in reality - the evil things that the person does, it may make them end up in hellfire.


So by telling the person to avoid evil - it will distance them away from the fire. So the messengers warn them to avoid that evil, and if they avoid it - they will go towards the most desirable place, which is paradise.. where they will abide therein forever.

Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds, to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk. (Qur'an 22:23)

Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

We were expelled from the garden because we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. We continue to eat from it still today. In other words we would choose to know as God rather than know God.
Jesus is the tree of life that we were not forbidden. When we partake of that tree we stop dividing things as good and evil and instead follow Jesus and let Him lead us into all good.


Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

[- Qatada -]

Hi evangel.


I'm really happy we're discussing our points without any arguments (like alot of the other sections lead to), but instead - understanding the concepts of our faiths.


In islam, we don't believe that we all are responsible for another persons sins. (i.e. when Aadam and Hawwa [Eve] (peace be upon them) ate from the tree. Nor any other situation) But we believe:

Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;

That man can have nothing but what he strives for;

That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:

Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;

That to thy Lord is the final Goal;


(Qur'an Surah Najm [53] : 38-42)

If we strive to do good in this life, then we will be rewarded for that good, and if we do evil - nobody else will get the punishment for it - but instead, the one who did that evil will be punished for it.

The same way, if a person does a crime in this world - the one who does the evil should be the one who gets punished, not any innocent who wasn't even there to stop the crime.


But in islam if one repents sincerely (hoping not to go to that sin again), then Allaah Almighty can choose to forgive that person. That is easy for Allaah.

Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer).

The admonition will be received by those who fear (Allah):

But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate ones,

Who will enter the Great Fire,

In which they will then neither die nor live.


But those will prosper who purify themselves,

And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer.

Nay (behold), ye prefer the life of this world;

But the Hereafter is better and more enduring.

And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),-

The Books of Abraham and Moses.


(Qur'an Surah Al A'la [87] : 9-19)

Do you see how the religion of islam is so similar to the previous scriptures, even including the bible and old testament etc. :) It's because it's from the same source, the same God (Allaah.)


If a person does evil, without repenting and changing his/her ways, they will be punished accordingly.


And if you do good, you will be rewarded with good:


Is there any Reward for Good - other than Good? (Qur'an Surah Rahman [56]: 60)



Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[syilla]

*bump

[Pygoscelis]

If we strive to do good in this life, then we will be rewarded for that good, and if we do evil - nobody else will get the punishment for it - but instead, the one who did that evil will be punished for it.

This scores a big point in favour of Islam over Christianity in my view.

One of the major problems I have with Christianity is the concept the Jesus could "die for your sins", paying for YOUR wrongdoing with HIS life. A fall guy is not moral, and not seen as moral even by Christians in any setting other than this one.

[glo]

This scores a big point in favour of Islam over Christianity in my view.

One of the major problems I have with Christianity is the concept the Jesus could "die for your sins", paying for YOUR wrongdoing with HIS life. A fall guy is not moral, and not seen as moral even by Christians in any setting other than this one.

I don't understand your post, Pygoscelis.
Can you elaborate what you mean by the last sentence?

Thanks

[Skavau]

That argument in the first post doesn't really offer any substance. There is no reason for any Disbeliever in Islam to suppose that the events described will happen to a disbeliever of Islam after death. The argument is hinging on Pascal's Wager and that argument is terrible in my eyes.

Skavau

[Balthasar21]

Ohhhhhhhhhh someone has let the cat out of the bag :)
Question ; Who was Waraqa Ibn Naufal ?

[Balthasar21]

Fi_Sabilillah Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

I hope we can discuss this like MEN and not like children , You without the name calling .

[Pygoscelis]

I don't understand your post, Pygoscelis.
Can you elaborate what you mean by the last sentence?

Thanks

A "fall guy" is a term usually used in an organized crime setting, meaning one person being made to or volunteering to take the punishment for another. For example when evidence surfaces that the mafia don killed somebody, one of his men may step forward and confess that HE did the murder (and take the sentence for it) while the don walks away free.

My point is that it is immoral for one person to be punished for the wrongdoing of another, even if he volunteers for it. And this is exactly the point of what Jesus is doing when he "died for the sins" of chrisitians.

[Woodrow]

Fi_Sabilillah Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

I hope we can discuss this like MEN and not like children , You without the name calling .

Speaking for myself, I would say the Christians were influenced by the very same Prophets that came before Muhammad(PBUH) If they had truly followed what was given to them their beliefs would be the same as ours. The message Allah(swt) gave to Muhammad(PBUH) was the same message given to all of the Prophets(PBUT) including Isa(as). The only difference is when the message was given in the past it was given for specific people at specific times. When it was given to Muhammad(PBUH) it is to given to all people of all times.

[barney]

...I don't see a verse that states you are a lowly scum of the earth , and deserve to die a horrible death do you?

:laugh:

I was thinking about putting in some surahs to show you the verses he's refering to...But it's pointless, Id have to cut n paste practically 40% of the quran.

Purest. are you seriously stating that the Quran dosnt mention the unbeleivers burning or being lowlifes? Its in Every other verse! Open a quran already!

[Woodrow]

:laugh:

I was thinking about putting in some surahs to show you the verses he's refering to...But it's pointless, Id have to cut n paste practically 40% of the quran.

Purest. are you seriously stating that the Quran dosnt mention the unbeleivers burning or being lowlifes? Its in Every other verse! Open a quran already!

It is very true that the Qur'an has many ayyats warning the unbelievers. I can find 27 of them almost immediately 9 in Surah 8 alone.

Have you given any thought as to why there would be so many? When you buy any devices have you ever read the warnings listed on them, such as wear safety goggles, keep fingers away from moving parts, wear ear protection, do not expose to heat or flame etc. Do the manufactures put those warnings because they want to punish us if we are not obedient or is it because they do not want us to be harmed? Does it not make sense that the manufacturer of the earth would give us operating instructions so that we can make our time using it productive and safe?

[syilla]

:laugh:

I was thinking about putting in some surahs to show you the verses he's refering to...But it's pointless, Id have to cut n paste practically 40% of the quran.

Purest. are you seriously stating that the Quran dosnt mention the unbeleivers burning or being lowlifes? Its in Every other verse! Open a quran already!

yeah...thats why we as muslims have to read quran everyday...to remind ourselves.

Abu Dhar Jundub bin Junadah and Abu Abdul Rahman Mu’adh bin Jabal, radiyallahu anhuma, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:

“Fear Allah wherever you may be; follow up an evil deed with a good one which will wipe (the former) out, and behave good-naturedly towards people.”

[Al-Tirmidhi relates it, saying: It is a good (hasan) Tradition. In some copies he says: It is a good and genuine (hasan and sahih) Hadith.]

background

Taqwa is one of the most important and comprehensive Islamic concepts. The term is derived from its root "waqayya" which means “to protect.” Taqwa therefore means to protect one own self from the severe punishment of Allah by following His guidance.

Some translate Taqwa as “to fear Allah”. However, fearing Allah is only one aspect of this comprehensive concept. Ali ibn Abi Talib, radiyallahu anhu, defines it as: “Fearing Allah, adhering to His commandments, being content with what He provides one with, and getting ready for the Day of Judgement.”

Mohammad Asad translates it as “to be conscious of Allah.” It might be better according to some Muslim linguist to use the transliteration of this Qur’anic term and keep it as it is.



The term has been mentioned many times both in Qur’an and Sunnah. Allah the Almighty says:

"O believers! Have Taqwa of Allah as is His right to have Taqwa. And die not except while you are Muslims"
[Surah Al-Imran (3): ayat 102]

By realization of Taqwa a Muslim is granted many bounties and blessings which he/she may gain. Among them are: the Love of Allah, a criterion by which to judge and distinguish between right and wrong, a way out of difficulties, matters will be made easier for him/her, sins will be remitted, guidance, help to acquire beneficial knowledge, prosperity and success.

lessons

According to Ibn Rajab's view as well as other scholars, Taqwa is to fulfill obligations and avoid prohibitions and doubtful matters. It is the advice of Allah to all humankind, and it is the advice of all prophets, alayhim al-salam, to their people. Prophet Mohammad, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, used to advise and continuously remind his Companions about Taqwa in all his talks and on different occasions.



Those who define Taqwa as “fearing Allah” look at the concept as a motive, because according to early scholars the minimum level of fearing Allah is what motivates a Muslim to fulfill obligations and keeps him/her away from prohibitions.



Taqwa does not imply perfection. Those who have Taqwa are subject to commit sins. However, if they do so, they repent right away and follow up the bad deed they have done with a good deed to wipe the bad one out as mentioned in this hadith. This clarifies the debatable issue between some scholars: whether or not avoiding minor sins is considered an aspect of Taqwa.



Allah the Almighty and all Merciful has left the door of forgiveness opened to many means by which the punishment for a sin might be removed. To do good deeds right after bad ones to wipe them out is one mean. This is mentioned in Surah Hud, ayat 114: "Verily, the good deeds remove the evil deeds."

There are other ways and means by which sins are forgiven as stated in the Qur’an and Sunnah such as:
Istighfar (seeking forgiveness by supplication)
Tubah (repentance)
Du'a’ of Muslims for one another
The intercession by the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam
The intercession of pious Muslims
Performing the daily five prayers regularly and on time
Afflictions
The torment in the grave
The horrible scenes and events of the Last Day
The mere Mercy and Forgiveness from Allah

If we do a good deed, Allah will reward us by guiding us to do another good deed. Hence, doing a good deed will lead to doing another good deed. Doing a bad deed without regretting it or without istighfar or wiping it out by doing a good deed will most likely lead to doing another bad deed, whether of the same type or of a different type. By doing a bad deed with that attitude makes the person subject to repeat it again and again and doing other bad deeds becomes possible until the heart of that person is “sealed” and the person turns into a transgressor.



It is an obligation that every Muslim should treat others, deal with them, and interact with them in a good manner. Ibn Rajab says in his commentary: “Having good character is a characteristic of Taqwa. Taqwa cannot be complete without it. It was mentioned here by itself due to the need for explicitly explaining that point. Many people think that Taqwa implies fulfilling the rights of Allah without fulfilling the rights of humans. Therefore, the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, explicitly stated that he/she must deal with people in a kind manner.” This ruling is stressed in many other hadiths, of which the following are some:

“Piety and Righteousness is being of good character.” [Recorded by Imam Muslim]

“The believer with the most complete Iman (faith) is the one with the best behavior.” [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud]

“There is nothing heavier in the scales than good character.” [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud]

The Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, made Iman (faith) and good character as the main basic criterion whether or not to accept a man for marriage.

conclusion

To fear Allah the Almighty, to adhere to His commandments, to follow doing a bad deed with a good deed to wipe it out, and to deal with others in a good manner and good character are all aspects of the concept of Taqwa.

source

[barney]

<---Agnostic: Religions are devised by men.

I see it as a coercive method of
1) Getting people into the religion you are forming.
2) Dissuading people from leaving it.

Religion is carrotts and sticks.
A nice juicy Carrott of eternal life with flowing waters and date palms wine women and music.
A Ruddy great stick of Burning shirts.

As for the manufactuor. What product is he selling? Why should I buy his stuff? Do I need it? Why did he make it so dangerous...hasnt he heard of the health n safety act?

[syilla]

Wa `Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner! We would like to voice our appreciation to you for the great confidence you repose in us and this apparent keenness on understanding the teachings of Islam.

In fact, your question emanates from ever flowing desires for guidance and righteousness. May Allah guide you to what pleases Him!

You are quite right in what you said about Taqwa (piety). Yes, brother! Taqwa (piety) is something that can be achieved, not by sleeping in bed, but by meticulous efforts and sincere and ceaseless work to gain Paradise. The Qur’an teaches us to be pious and righteous.

Elaborating more on this, we’d like to make it clear that “Taqwa (piety) is derived from wiqaya, which means self-defense and avoidance. Sufis define it as protecting oneself from Allah’s punishment by performing His commands and avoiding His prohibitions. Besides its literal and technical meanings, in religious books we find the meanings of piety and fear used interchangeably. In fact, Taqwa (piety) is a comprehensive term denoting a believer’s strict observance of the commandments of the Shari`ah and the Divine laws of nature and life. Such a person seeks refuge in Allah against His punishment, refrains from acts leading to Hell-Fire, and performs acts leading to Paradise. Again, the believer purifies all outer and inner senses so that none of them can associate partners with Allah, and avoids imitating the worldviews and life-styles of unbelievers. In its comprehensive meaning, Taqwa (piety) is the only and greatest standard of one’s nobility and worth: The noblest, most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the most advanced of you in Taqwa (piety) (Al-Hujurat: 13).

The concept—even the actual word—of Taqwa (piety) is unique to the Qur’an and the religious system of Islam. Its comprehensive meaning encompasses the spiritual and material; its roots are established in this world, while its branches, leaves, flowers, and fruits are located in the Hereafter. One cannot understand the Qur’an without considering the meaning or content of the fascinating and wonderful concept of Taqwa (piety), and one cannot be muttaqi (pious) if one does not adhere consciously and continually to the practices and concepts outlined in the Qur’an.

In its very beginning, the Qur’an opens its door to the pious: “This is the Book about and in which there is no doubt, a guidance for the pious” (Al-Baqarah: 2), and calls on people to live in accordance with it so that they may be pious: “O men! Worship your Lord, Who created you and those before you, so that you may be pious” (Al-Baqarah: 21) (and protect yourselves from His punishment)

The most lovable act in Allah’s sight is piety (Taqwa (piety)), His most purified servants are the pious, and His matchless message to them is the Qur’an. In this world, the pious have the Qur’an; in the Hereafter, they enjoy Allah’s vision and pleasure. The pleasure felt in the conscience and spirit is another gift of piety, and in order to recall the importance of piety, the Almighty decrees: Fear Allah and be devoted to Him as He should be feared and devoted to (Al-`Imarn: 101).

Piety, which is the conscious performance of good and avoidance of evil, prevents individuals from joining the lowest of the low and causes them to advance on the path of the highest of the high. For this reason, one who attains piety has found the source of all good and blessing. The following is another testimony to this fact:

To whomever Allah has given religion and piety,

He has realized his aims in this world and the next.

Whoever is a soldier of Allah and pious,

He is prosperous and truly guided, not a wretched one.

Whoever has nothing to do with piety,

His existence is but a shame and disgrace.

One lifeless with respect to truth is not truly alive;

Only one who has found a way to Allah is alive.

Piety is an invaluable treasure, the matchless jewel in a priceless treasure of precious stones, a mysterious key to all doors of good, and a mount on the way to Paradise. Its value is so high that, among other life-giving expressions the Qur’an mentions it 150 times, each mention resembling a ray of light penetrating our minds and spirits.

In its limited sense, Taqwa (piety) means sensitivity to the commandments of the Shari`ah and refraining from acts that deprive one of Divine reward and result in Allah’s punishment. The verse: “ And those who shun the worst of sins and indecencies and, when they are wroth, forgive.” (As-Shura: 37) expresses one aspect of this basic religious virtue; the verse: “Those who believe and do good deeds” (Yunus: 9) points to the other. Strict observance of obligatory religious duties and refraining from major sins are the two necessary and complementary foundations of Taqwa (piety). As for minor sins, termed by the Qur’an as Lamam (small offenses), there are many Prophetic declarations, such as: “A believer cannot be truly pious unless he refrains from certain permissible things lest he should commit risky things, that warn people to be careful.”

Perfect sincerity or purity of intention can be attained by avoiding all signs of associating partners with Allah, while perfect piety can be achieved by refraining from all doubtful and risky deeds. According to the Hadith: “The lawful is evident and the forbidden is also evident. Between these two are things which most of the people do not know whether they are lawful or forbidden.” A truly righteous, spiritual life depends on being sensitive to matters about which there is some doubt. The Hadith just mentioned points out that the Law-Giver has clearly explained in broad terms what is allowed and what is forbidden.

However, as many things are not clearly allowed or forbidden, only those who avoid such doubtful things can lead a truly religious life. Using a simile in the continuation of the Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “It is possible for one who does doubtful things to commit forbidden acts, just as it is possible for the flock of a shepherd pasturing near a field belonging to another or the public to enter that field. Know that each king has a private area under his protection; the private area of Allah is forbidden things. Also know that there is a part of flesh in the body. If it is healthy, the body will become healthy; if it is ailing, the body will be ailing. That part is the heart.” (Reported by An-Nawawi)

In light of this basic foundation for a healthy spiritual life, perfect piety can be obtained by avoiding doubtful things and minor sins. In order to do this, however, one must know what is lawful and what is forbidden, and have a certain knowledge of Allah. We can find the combination of piety and knowledge in these two verses: “The noblest, most honorable of you in the sight of Allah is the most advanced of you in Taqwa (piety)” (Al-Hujurat: 13), and: “Only the learned among His servants fear and revere Allah.” (Fatir: 28). Piety brings honor and nobility, and knowledge leads one to fear and revere Allah. Individuals who combine piety and knowledge in their hearts are mentioned in the Qur’an as those who succeed in the test of piety: “They are those whose hearts Allah has tested for piety.” (Al-Hujurat: 3).

In the context of worship and obedience, piety means purity of heart, spiritual profundity, and sincerity. In the context of refraining from what is unlawful, piety means being determined not to commit sins and to avoid doubtful things. The following may help in this regard:

1-Be alert to whatever may divert you from Allah.

2-Be alert to the carnal pleasures that may lead to the realm of the forbidden.

3-Ascribe all material and spiritual accomplishments to Allah.

4-Never consider yourself as higher and better than anyone else.

5-Long for Allah’s pleasure and satisfaction in all affairs.

6-Renew the fountains of your Iman by studying and reflecting on Allah’s creation.

7-Remember death, and live with the conscious knowledge that it may happen at any time.

In conclusion, Taqwa (piety) is the heavenly water of life, and a Muttaqi (pious) is the fortunate one who has found it. Only a few individuals have achieved the blessing of this attainment.”

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.thewaytotruth.org

Almighty Allah knows best.

source

[Malaikah]

As for the manufactuor. What product is he selling? Why should I buy his stuff? Do I need it? Why did he make it so dangerous...hasnt he heard of the health n safety act?

He is reminding you that you are human being and you took up this challenge and it was not forced upon you. The mountains and other creations strong than humans where also offered this challenge but none accepted it.

What challenge? The challenge that they will be given life and freedom of choice to choose whether they will worship Allah or not. If they do, they will be rewarded with Paradise,a dn if they don't, they will be punished with hell fire.

Allah sent thousands of Messengers to remind us of the reason we were created and that the purpose of this life is to worship Allah and that there is life after this life, in the hereafter, in either paradise or hell fire.

The bottom line is that we all agreed to this, and Allah is only reminding us, out of his mercy, of our promise. Now it is up to us to accept or turn away.

[Pygoscelis]

Ya, um, Syilla? Could you please make your font bigger and a brighter shade of red? It is too small for me to read.

[Woodrow]

<---Agnostic: Religions are devised by men.

Or corrupted by men.

I see it as a coercive method of
1) Getting people into the religion you are forming.
2) Dissuading people from leaving it.

I won't deny that some people have done just that. But, just because some people have thought they were equal to or superior to God(swt) does that negate the belief in a Diety?

Religion is carrotts and sticks.
A nice juicy Carrott of eternal life with flowing waters and date palms wine women and music.
A Ruddy great stick of Burning shirts.

Somehow from a materialistic view it seems atheism would be more conducive for immediate gratification. Religion is quite demanding and for a true belief in God(swt) it requires much personal sacrifice and much denial of material pleasures. Could only work if a person has reason to truly believe in God(swt)

As for the manufactuor. What product is he selling? Why should I buy his stuff? Do I need it?

Reading the instruction manual and the warranty, it seems that it is not a product being sold but a service and a training course. Like all training courses it does require effort and even some on hands experimentation. If we complete the course with a passing grade we graduate to a professional level and are rewarded with security and unbelievable company benefits with many free perks.

Why did he make it so dangerous...hasnt he heard of the health n safety act?

Quite true, it is very hazardous. however, if the instructions are followed life can be handled in a safe manner and live up to the full promises of the Manufacturer. The Manufacturer was the original writer of the health and safety act. All needed safety devices are available if requested.However, since each situation is different it is necessary that we ask for the safety features as we need them. There is immediate service available if we call upon customer support.

[barney]

we all agreed to this, .

I must have been pulling a sickkie that day. I always keep my receipts even for takeaways. cant find that documentation anywhere.
Can you link me a pic of your agreement so i know what the form looks like?

I just tried yelling out of the window at the nearest mountain, it said it cant remember either. actually it diddnt say anything....but it's silence I take as being supportive of my arguement since it diddnt disagree.

[Malaikah]

This occurred before the human race was established on earth. Allah pulled all the souls of all the humans to come out of the back of Prophet Adam (AS) and proposed the challenge to us and we accepted.

Obviously we don't remember this.

[Woodrow]

I must have been pulling a sickkie that day. I always keep my receipts even for takeaways. cant find that documentation anywhere.
Can you link me a pic of your agreement so i know what the form looks like?

I just tried yelling out of the window at the nearest mountain, it said it cant remember either. actually it diddnt say anything....but it's silence I take as being supportive of my arguement since it diddnt disagree.

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

[barney]

Or corrupted by men.



I won't deny that some people have done just that. But, just because some people have thought they were equal to or superior to God(swt) does that negate the belief in a Diety?



Somehow from a materialistic view it seems atheism would be more conducive for immediate gratification. Religion is quite demanding and for a true belief in God(swt) it requires much personal sacrifice and much denial of material pleasures. Could only work if a person has reason to truly believe in God(swt)



Reading the instruction manual and the warranty, it seems that it is not a product being sold but a service and a training course. Like all training courses it does require effort and even some on hands experimentation. If we complete the course with a passing grade we graduate to a professional level and are rewarded with security and unbelievable company benefits with many free perks.



Quite true, it is very hazardous. however, if the instructions are followed life can be handled in a safe manner and live up to the full promises of the Manufacturer. The Manufacturer was the original writer of the health and safety act. All needed safety devices are available if requested.However, since each situation is different it is necessary that we ask for the safety features as we need them. There is immediate service available if we call upon customer support.

I beleive in a creator/(s). Just that it's not Allah or Jehova or Jesus or Horus.
It's my beleif that true religion comes with a personal connection with this creator, if thats possible. Personally i doubt it is. If the creator is still around then theres no interaction that I can see.

I like the analogy of a training course. Fits well into a religious system. Nice one.

As a agnostic, I veiw it more like a Patio salesman coming round telling me that He can do a really great deal on re-turfing lawns and a nice shrubbery. I can go along with his deal or he will kick my face in forever. i'd probably go along with the deal.....


..........But I live on the 14th floor of a block of flats.

[barney]

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

But I've been sent this rotating ashtray and i dont smoke.
He's installed apparently 24 hour CCTV footage everywhere i go to check i'm using it....and If I dont. he'll pound my face to a pulp.

[Woodrow]

I beleive in a creator/(s). Just that it's not Allah or Jehova or Jesus or Horus.
It's my beleif that true religion comes with a personal connection with this creator, if thats possible. Personally i doubt it is. If the creator is still around then theres no interaction that I can see.

I like the analogy of a training course. Fits well into a religious system. Nice one.

As a agnostic, I veiw it more like a Patio salesman coming round telling me that He can do a really great deal on re-turfing lawns and a nice shrubbery. I can go along with his deal or he will kick my face in forever. i'd probably go along with the deal.....


..........But I live on the 14th floor of a block of flats.

I really can understand your views i spent a good bit of my life as an agnostic too and at one time I would say my views were very similar to yours. i did try various religious systems and for a long time called myself a Buddhist. That was after being a Christian for about 25 years.

I can not say I came to Islam, rather Islam came to me. I can only call it a flash of insight one day when I was reading the Qur'an from a scholastic view and as a linguistic study as i was trying to refresh my Arabic that I had not used for nearly 40 years.

I can not say or do anything that would convince you that Islam is the truth. That is a personal choice a person can only make on their own and should only be done if a person sincerely believes it is the only path to take.

May your journey in life be beneficial and may you find the joy and fulfillment many of us have found. Never, stop seeking and always question all that you are told. When all else fails, stop and ask Allah(swt) for guidance and be receptive for His reply.

[islamirama]

He is reminding you that you are human being and you took up this challenge and it was not forced upon you. The mountains and other creations strong than humans where also offered this challenge but none accepted it.

What challenge? The challenge that they will be given life and freedom of choice to choose whether they will worship Allah or not. If they do, they will be rewarded with Paradise,a dn if they don't, they will be punished with hell fire.

Allah sent thousands of Messengers to remind us of the reason we were created and that the purpose of this life is to worship Allah and that there is life after this life, in the hereafter, in either paradise or hell fire.

The bottom line is that we all agreed to this, and Allah is only reminding us, out of his mercy, of our promise. Now it is up to us to accept or turn away.

[Balthasar21]

Speaking for myself, I would say the Christians were influenced by the very same Prophets that came before Muhammad(PBUH) If they had truly followed what was given to them their beliefs would be the same as ours. The message Allah(swt) gave to Muhammad(PBUH) was the same message given to all of the Prophets(PBUT) including Isa(as). The only difference is when the message was given in the past it was given for specific people at specific times. When it was given to Muhammad(PBUH) it is to given to all people of all times.

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

[Woodrow]

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

[barney]

May your journey in life be beneficial and may you find the joy and fulfillment many of us have found. Never, stop seeking and always question all that you are told. When all else fails, stop and ask Allah(swt) for guidance and be receptive for His reply.

Cheers and the same to your good self!

:D

[glo]

A "fall guy" is a term usually used in an organized crime setting, meaning one person being made to or volunteering to take the punishment for another. For example when evidence surfaces that the mafia don killed somebody, one of his men may step forward and confess that HE did the murder (and take the sentence for it) while the don walks away free.

Thanks for the explanation. :)

My point is that it is immoral for one person to be punished for the wrongdoing of another, even if he volunteers for it. And this is exactly the point of what Jesus is doing when he "died for the sins" of chrisitians.

Yes, you are right. That was an outrageous thing to do. Sacrificing yourself - although entirely innocent - for the sake of others, who jolly well deserve their punishment, is shockingly outrageous, and completely flies in the face of our human justice system.

It is, what Christians call God's Grace. :statisfie

To clarify from an earlier post, though (and not wanting to take this thread off-topic), whilst Jesus' sacrifice restored the relationship between humans and God it is not excuse for people to continue sinning.
It is not a get-out-of-jail-card, which lets you off the hook for every wrong you commit.
There is clear evidence in Jesus' teachings that we will be judged by our actions and deeds at the end of the day.

Sin has consequences.

Peace

[Skavau]

He is reminding you that you are human being and you took up this challenge and it was not forced upon you. The mountains and other creations strong than humans where also offered this challenge but none accepted it.

Where did I accept this challenge?

What challenge? The challenge that they will be given life and freedom of choice to choose whether they will worship Allah or not. If they do, they will be rewarded with Paradise,a dn if they don't, they will be punished with hell fire.

That's not a challenge. That's almost a threat.

The bottom line is that we all agreed to this, and Allah is only reminding us, out of his mercy, of our promise. Now it is up to us to accept or turn away.

Where did we all agree to this? I certainly didn't.

Have you given any thought as to why there would be so many? When you buy any devices have you ever read the warnings listed on them, such as wear safety goggles, keep fingers away from moving parts, wear ear protection, do not expose to heat or flame etc. Do the manufactures put those warnings because they want to punish us if we are not obedient or is it because they do not want us to be harmed? Does it not make sense that the manufacturer of the earth would give us operating instructions so that we can make our time using it productive and safe?

This is a faulty analogy.

Manufacturers who put health and safety warnings on manuals do it out of necessity. You are compromising your safety at your own risk and there is no way of there not needing to have health and safety warnings used.

With God though, he established everything (if God exists). He would have created heaven and/or hell. He established the conditions of which the 'warnings' are necessary. He established the world knowing full well what would happen to those who do not believe in him. You're then comparing this to a health and safety manual?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage. :) I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

[vpb]

The answer from the sheikh is aswesome and very tough lol:) very good answer. some people like that questioner deserve those type of answers.

may Allah swt reward the sheikh.

[Balthasar21]

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

Are you giveing a Two Fold ansewer here Yes and No ?:)

[Woodrow]

No. But both the Early Christians and Muhammad(PBUH) were influenced by the words of Allah(swt) There should be much similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all have the same chain of Prophets(PBUT) if the earlier messages had not been corrupted there would have not been 3 separate religions.

Are you giveing a Two Fold ansewer here Yes and No ?:)

What part of no do you need explained?

No, Muhammad(PBUH) was not influenced by early Christians. The two of them will be similar because Christianity also was based upon the words of Allah(SWT)

[barney]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage.

So somebody who in all likelyhood who diddnt exist, and if he did wasnt the first human, and who lived apparently 4000 years ago, several hundreds of thousands of years after cavemen, did something wrong apparently, in somebodys eyes...all his decendents right to his great great grandkids X 10 to the power of 40 now have to accept his "challange" too.

I'll buy that for a dollar. :D

[Balthasar21]

What part of no do you need explained?

No, Muhammad(PBUH) was not influenced by early Christians. The two of them will be similar because Christianity also was based upon the words of Allah(SWT)

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

[barney]

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.
They beleive he didnt just spring into existance in 630AD.

[Trumble]

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

I think the answer to that (and ditto, Jews) depends very much on whether you are a muslim or not!

Muslims beleive that the Christian God IS the muslim God.

As they both believe there is only one God surely they must, logically, believe in the same one?

[Joe98]

This occurred before the human race was established on earth....

Obviously we don't remember this.

You think like an athiest.

-

[barney]

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Jews beleive their message is right, because they got it first. It tells them that they are special and the best.

Christians beleive that The Jewish god came down to earth and switched from a wrathful, burning God into a Peaceful all loving god, told everyone to love him and everyone else, then went back up....about the same time as his death....which saved mankind from his own wrath. It gets confusing.

that wraps it up.

[MustafaMc]

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

[barney]

Unless Abraham, the first recorded guy to claim to speak with him, was mistaken. (or whatever)

[Pygoscelis]

Yes, you are right. That was an outrageous thing to do. Sacrificing yourself - although entirely innocent - for the sake of others, who jolly well deserve their punishment, is shockingly outrageous, and completely flies in the face of our human justice system.

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong. And I would think that Christians can see this in any other setting - hence why we didn't allow it even in the Christian theocracies or the dark age quasi-theocracies.

To clarify from an earlier post, though (and not wanting to take this thread off-topic), whilst Jesus' sacrifice restored the relationship between humans and God it is not excuse for people to continue sinning.
It is not a get-out-of-jail-card, which lets you off the hook for every wrong you commit.
There is clear evidence in Jesus' teachings that we will be judged by our actions and deeds at the end of the day.

Sin has consequences.

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

[barney]

I think the stock answer is Jesus knows in our hearts if we accept his teachings and try to live by them. So only if we reject his message of love will we be ripped eternally to small bitesized chunks.

[Balthasar21]

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

If you have a Beginning , Then you have a Beginning ,
If you have a Ending , Then you have a Ending .

[glo]

Well either accepting Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour can cleanse me of all sin, or I will still be held accountable for my sin. You can't logically have it both ways.

Through Jesus you can!

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17)

And later on, when the rich man walks away because is unwilling to comply with all Jesus demands:

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
(Matthew 19:25-26)

The base line of Christian beliefs is that none of us are good enough to ever gain God's favour. Not the Pope, not Mother Teresa, not you or I ...
There is only One [namely God himself] who is good!

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.
That's not to say that there won't be punishments or consequences. (I would have to delve a little deeper into scripture for that one. Certainly I will agree that Islamic teaching is a whole lot clearer and specific - sometimes extremely graphic - in terms of what sin demands what punishment, than the Bible is.)

Being pardoned for a wrong you have committed, when you are repentant and genuinely remorseful, is not such a rare thing in human history either - that concept is quite within the realm of human understanding ... and it still isn't fair in terms of justice.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

Yes, we strive to follow Jesus' teachings, but he knows as well as we know that that alone will never be good enough.
We will be accountable for our sins, but by the grace of God we can also be forgiven.

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

[Umar001]

Howdy Barney,

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,

Ohhhhhhhhhh someone has let the cat out of the bag :)
Question ; Who was Waraqa Ibn Naufal ?

Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise. :statisfie

[Pygoscelis]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

[Umar001]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Richard for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer. :omg:

[Pygoscelis]

That's then assuming that Jesus did indeed volunteer. :omg:

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

[duskiness]

Raoul, from Italy, meets his cousin Bob from Kentucky USA for the first time. It is customary for Raoul to hug family members and kiss them on each cheek, so he does so to Bob.

Bob takes great offence to this. Bob declares that Ricardo, Raoul's son must be strung up and beaten for this transgression.

Bob's son, Brett then volunteers to be lashed by Raoul's other two sons for Bob to see.

Bob is satisfied by the beating of his son Brett at the hands of Raoul's other two sons. So Bob forgives Ricardo for what his father Raoul did.

Does Bob sound like a just and reasonable person? How many imoralities can you count?

Now consider the stories of the fall of Adam and sacrifice of Jesus.

:D
Have you read "Life of Pi" by Yann Martel? He is also from Canada... (well, I know it doesn't mean that you read all books by Canadians... ;) ) First of all, I think it is a good book (and funny) about belief and disbelief. At one point main hero - Pi (his father is a boss of zoo) sums up Christianity:

When I was fourteen years old -- and a well-contented Hindu -- when I met Jesus Christ on a holiday.

[Father Martin] served me tea and biscuits in a tea set that tinkled and rattled with every touch; he treated me like a grown-up; and he told me a story. Or rather, since Christians or so fond of capital letters, a Story.

And what a story. The first thing that drew me in was disbelief. What? Humanity sins but it's God's Son who pays the price? I tried to imagine father saying to me, "Piscine, a lion slipped into the llama pen today and killed two llamas. Yesterday another one killed a black buck. Last week two of them ate the camel. The week before it was painted storks and grey herons. And who's to say for sure who snacked on our golden agouti? The situation has become intolerable. Something must be done. I have decided that the only way the lions can atone for their sins is if I feed you to them."

"Yes, father, that would be the right and logical thing to do. Give me a moment to wash up."

"Halleluhah, my son."

"Hallelujay, father."

What a downright weird story. What peculiar psychology.

sounds almost like you! :)
But, further in the book Pi became Christians. There is another great part when he speaks why he does it, but I can't find it..and this part would be an answer to your post.

[Malaikah]

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

[duskiness]

Is that the book about the guy with a tiger?

exactly :) Pi became also Muslim.

[The baker] was explaining to me how the bread baked on these heated pebbles when the nasal call of the muezzin wafted through the air from the mosque. I knew it was a call to prayer, but I didn't know what it entailed. I imagined it beckoned the Muslim faithful to the mosque, much like bells summoned us Christians to church. Not so. The baker interrupted himself mid-sentence and said, "Excuse me." He ducked into the next room for a minute and returned with a rolled-up carpet, which he unfurled on the floor of his bakery, throwing up a small storm of flour. And right there before me, in the midst of his workplace, he prayed. It was incongruous, but it was I who felt out of place. Luckily, he prayed with his eyes closed.

He stood straight. He muttered in Arabic. He brought his hands next to his ears, thumbs touching the lobes, looking as if he were straining to hear Allah replying. He bent forward. He stood straight again. He fell to his knees and brought his hands and forehead to the floor. He sat up. He fell forward again. He stood. He started the whole thing again.

Why, Islam is nothing but an easy sort of exercise, I thought. Hot-weather yoga for the Bedouins. Asanas without sweat, heaven without strain.

"What's your religion about?" I asked.

His eyes lit up. "It is about the Beloved," he replied.

I challenge anyone to understand Islam, its spirit, and not to love it. It is a beautiful religion of brotherhood and devotion.

The presence of God is the finest of rewards.

hope you like it :)

[Balthasar21]

Howdy Barney,



Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

Howdy Balthasar21,



Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, was the cousin of Khadija, the wife of the Prophet, peace be upon him.

I now shall await the big suprise. :statisfie

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ? :)

[glo]

You are just talking in circles now. This is where we started. You say that we are horrible creatures who are full of badness, which you call sin. You say that we deserve eternal punishment for that. Then you say that some innocent named Jesus was sent by God and he volunteers and is allowed to die for us, so that we are forgiven and not eternally tortured, as we deserve to be. And somehow this is considered just in this setting, whereas in any other it would be seen as fundamentally wrong.

Seriously, take this away from the religious setting and examine it wihtout that bias. It isn't moral at all.

Reread my first post on this. We've gotten nowhere.

I know what you are saying, Pygoscelis. I am married to an atheist, and that's very much how he feels too ...
And yet, that's what I believe to be true, and it is the best way I can explain it ...

All I am left with is this Bible quote:

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
(1 Corinthians 1: 21-25)

To paraphrase a wise saying: To you your atheism, to me my religion. :D

Peace, friend.

[Umar001]

How can it be a suprise if you already know the story ? :)

Oh, I was under the impression that story was going to be expounded on by some.

Well at least its a nice day. :statisfie

Indeed.

You've pointed out yet ANOTHER wrinkle to the story.

This is somehow seen as GOOD and JUST... how do people do these mental contortions?

Hmm, well if it was not for the fact that Jesus didnt seem to happy to die, if he had indeed wanted to and showed that, the story for me would have been somewhat more acceptable.

[duskiness]

The outrageous thing isn't that an innocent stepped forward to pay for what was deemed wrongdoing of others (so called sins), but that the judge would accept this and then let those others off free, not having to pay for their wrongdoing. It is just fundamentally wrong.

you said "pay" and you used word "judge". Do you know why? Because you are referring to some of atonement theories in Christian theology which operate with concept of "debt" (like satisfaction theory") or "penalty" (penal substitution). those are- probably- the most simple answers, we can give to question "what have happened on Golgotha?"
Maybe other theories would be more "palatable" for you? Like "Christus Victor", "moral infulence"....probably Grace Seeker would be much more qualified to speak here.
The point is, that there are more views on His death than the one you have presented. Non of them is "the right one". They all grasp part of truth. But as always truth is a bit bigger than any theory...
Overall, we simply believe that His life and death caused this world in its present form to pass away (slowly...)

[barney]

Howdy Barney,



Just wondering, ask your sources, Muslim or non Muslim for evidence that that is why God revealed Islaam.

[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.

2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[2.101] And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
2.121] Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read. These believe in it; and whoever disbelieves in it, these it is that are the losers.[2.159] Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
[2.174] Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement.

I cant carry on TBH, not enough time...too many verses deal with how the Koran is the word and the Jews corrupted it or diddnt listen.

[Umar001]

.....

What I mean is that, the reason said was that Islam came because the people before us corrupted their message, this implies that if they hadnt done so then Islam would not be here, this is what I find a lack of evidence for.

I acknowledge that Islam teaches the previous scriptures were changed but I have yet to see where it states 'this is why Islam was revealed'. If someone tells me that it's their assumption or a leap from the evidence to their view then thats fair enough.

[evangel]

The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Actually it's been quite a bit longer. You see, Abraham felt Sarah and he were getting a little old to have any children so, instead of waiting on the Lord to provide, he had relations with Sarah's servant and the result was Ishmail. After a bit, and in God's time, Sarah had Isaac, the promised son. After a bit again, Hagar (Ishmail's mom) wanted her son to have more of the birthright than what was in God's plan so Abraham made her leave with Ishmail. Ishmail's blessing was that He would be the patriarch of the Arab race. Of course we know Isaac was from where sprung the Hebrew race. Basically what we have here is an approximately 4000 year old family feud. Family feuds, if left to run with no reconciliation, get more contentious and bitter which is a pretty apt description of the middle east right now. Also it probably didn't help the way the son's (descendants) of Ishmail are described in the Old Testament, but I'll let you research that one, I've probably upset enough people already.

[Balthasar21]

This post demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of both the Christian and the Muslim concept of God. The One God has always existed and will always exist - you know the whole no beginning and no end stuff. The One God did not come into existence with the birth of Jesus or with the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad.

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

[- Qatada -]

According To Christianity Their God , Was Here 2,000 Years , Before The Muslims God Allah , Care to explain Where Was Allah AT .

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.


Regards.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage. :) I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

:salamext:


I think i made a mistake there:

"And [remember] when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, [He asked]: "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we testify!" Lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Of this we were unaware."

(Quran, The Heights 7:172)

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemo...ne02_index.php

And i explained the concept of Fitrah [the natural disposition] here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/734266-post3.html



Allaah knows best.

[Balthasar21]

According to Islaam, Allaah's always been and has never ceased to exist. He isn't limited to 2000years only.


Regards.

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

[MustafaMc]

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

[Balthasar21]

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

Why do socall muslims resort to name calling and throwing temper tantrums , Instead of discussing the facts ?

[Malaikah]

Can you give the date and time Allah came to existed Using the Quraan , No Hadiyth Please Unless it back up with the Quraan . DATE AND TIME ALLAH CAME INTO EXISTED , NO BELIEF / FAITH OK

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

[evangel]

Instead of discussing the facts ?

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

[Balthasar21]

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

[Umar001]

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

:)

[Balthasar21]

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

:)

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse , No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan . When did Allah came into existance . Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

[Balthasar21]

We live in the temporal. We have a certain amount of time in the day to spend doing what we need to do. We have a certain amount of time on the earth.
God created time (don't ask me why, God is God and I am not, maybe it was so wristwatches would have a purpose) but he is outside of it. To ask when did He punch in how do I answer, always, never. It would be like asking your parents when did you appear in my life when you were created in theirs.
Actually I believe He has given us dual citizenship; our flesh nature that resides in this world and our spiritual nature that resides in eternity.
Every person then is immortal, not the flesh nature, the spiritual, it is where we spend eternity that we each for ourselves will decide on. Like everything else in our life it is our choice.

Overstand something if you can , I don't accept Sermon nor Testimony .

[noodles]

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

[Umar001]

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse ,

:)

You don't seem to have understood nor overstood.

I was saying that;

Just pointing out that I think you made a mistake.

Not 1400 I think you mean that the Muslim God Allah came into existance 600 or so years after Christian God. since Jesus came then Muhammad 600 years after him. Not 1400.

:)

Instead of saying 1400 years after Christian God, which would mean the year, roughly 1397 CE, you mean 600 CE.

If I wanted to, as some might put it, 'school you' that'd be pretty easy, but I have no inclination towards that.

No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan .

This only shows your lack of knowledge, if you'd like to discuss the validity of Hadith in Islam then feel free to start a thread. Wonder why you would reject the words of Muhammad, a Messenger of God, yet belive him when he said the Qur'an is the word of God. Well that's if you believe the Qur'an is the word of God, you do right?

Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.

Regards,

Eesa :)

[Balthasar21]

Balthasar, what I'm about to ask is not considered mocking nor name-calling as you put it.

What exactly is your purpose here?

In another thread you mentioned that you were here to learn, and people learn by asking questions. Yet when we present you with the Islamic belief on certain topics, you dismiss is as "Play on words" or the person being "trickster", or rather dismissing another person's answer altogether.

In regards to your Question about How Allah(swt) came into existence, sister Malaikah gave an understanding of the topic which is accepted by the Muslims, yet you reject it because it is not a "fact"

Perhaps you may ignore my post or you may not, I don't really know, but do know this, we've provided you with ample evidence(s?) and all of them went down the drain.

I said and I Quote ; Kayfa Haalaka
I'm new here looking forward to discussing / shareing knowledge and learning about diffrent belief / faith religion hopeing we can agree to disagree .


Your missing the part [ hopeing we can agree to disagree ] . Their are 82 diffrent sect of muslims all claiming they have the true word of Allah Yes . I have the Right To Reject / Accept / Agree / Disagree . As I have said before I don't claim to know everything , But I know what I know . If you or anyone think I should accept what your saying just because you believe or have faith in what your saying . Then your wrong ,


Discussion = Main Entry: dis·cus·sion
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'sk&-sh&n
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing


Main Entry: panel discussion
Function: noun
: a formal discussion by a panel


Debate = Main Entry: 1de·bate
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, de-
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides


Main Entry: 2debate
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·bat·ed ; de·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT , CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
- de·bate·ment/-'bAt-m&nt/ noun
- de·bat·er noun


What you and a Few others here want is for people to tell you what you WANT / AGREE ..... To hear . And when this doesn't happen SOME here began to insult / name calling , And they 're allow to get away with it because they're muslims ,


Not one time in any of my post have I ask anyone to accept what I post . But other have told me what I'm posting is wrong , And what I should accept Hummmmmm hey it cool .

[Umar001]

There is no date. Allah was not created, He has always existed and is outside the dimension of time. The concept of time is something created, and Allah is not created.

He is not bound by the things He creates.

You know, asking someone when something, which IS NOT created, was created, is like asking a man, when did you give birth, and when he replies, I dont give birth, you say 'No no, just answer, when did you give birth' :statisfie

What you and a Few others here want is for people to tell you what you WANT / AGREE ..... To hear . And when this doesn't happen SOME here began to insult / name calling , And they 're allow to get away with it because they're muslims ,

Maybe you could tell me and I'd deal with him, I dont know everything to be able to shut down any name calling any place, a tip off would be helpful.

:)

[MustafaMc]

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

Of course.....a most foolish question answered most foolishly.

[barney]

Actually it's been quite a bit longer. You see, Abraham felt Sarah and he were getting a little old to have any children so, instead of waiting on the Lord to provide, he had relations with Sarah's servant and the result was Ishmail. After a bit, and in God's time, Sarah had Isaac, the promised son. After a bit again, Hagar (Ishmail's mom) wanted her son to have more of the birthright than what was in God's plan so Abraham made her leave with Ishmail. Ishmail's blessing was that He would be the patriarch of the Arab race. Of course we know Isaac was from where sprung the Hebrew race. Basically what we have here is an approximately 4000 year old family feud. Family feuds, if left to run with no reconciliation, get more contentious and bitter which is a pretty apt description of the middle east right now. Also it probably didn't help the way the son's (descendants) of Ishmail are described in the Old Testament, but I'll let you research that one, I've probably upset enough people already.

Yeah, thx Evan, I already knew that one :)
Ishmael sacrificed not issac, father of arabs , donkeys (asses) of men (strong/stupid). Hated by all.

But thanks anyway :)

[Balthasar21]

:)

You don't seem to have understood nor overstood.

I was saying that;



Instead of saying 1400 years after Christian God, which would mean the year, roughly 1397 CE, you mean 600 CE.

If I wanted to, as some might put it, 'school you' that'd be pretty easy, but I have no inclination towards that.




This only shows your lack of knowledge, if you'd like to discuss the validity of Hadith in Islam then feel free to start a thread. Wonder why you would reject the words of Muhammad, a Messenger of God, yet belive him when he said the Qur'an is the word of God. Well that's if you believe the Qur'an is the word of God, you do right?



Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.

Regards,

Eesa :)

Al Habeshi < Says > If I wanted to, as some might put it, 'school you' that'd be pretty easy, but I have no inclination towards that.


Balthasar21 < Says > First you have to make up you mind which School Of Though you will use against me , Next thing you'll do is closed out the post because of my answer like you have done , Naaaaaa you don't want to try to school me of all people . Your not ready for me Yet . You speak of Hadith Yes Laughing here . Are you saying I Can Start A Post On Hadith's And you or any of the Moderators / Administrator Will Not Closed / Remove / Delete The Post YES or No ? ... Beware of what you ask for ok .

[Balthasar21]

You know, asking someone when something, which IS NOT created, was created, is like asking a man, when did you give birth, and when he replies, I dont give birth, you say 'No no, just answer, when did you give birth' :statisfie



Maybe you could tell me and I'd deal with him, I dont know everything to be able to shut down any name calling any place, a tip off would be helpful.

:)

How can you not see what going when you read every post I post LOLOLOL

[ranma1/2]

The problem is that the translation is distorted to shift the interpretation of the original arabic verse in an attempt to deceive those who don't know arabic into believing the Quran says something it does not. Certainly God did not intend to say that those who change His Word in the original language were guilty of sin while those who mistranslate it were not.

Not to mention the quran has multiple writers"scribes if you wish" like the bible. The ability verify whether the quran changed before it was offically written down is impossible.

[ranma1/2]

Thanks for what? For the knowledge that all those who disbelieve are the lowest living beings on this planet? Or for the knowledge that my "garments of fire will be cut out for me" and "boiling water will be poured down over my head"?

Remember you need boiling water to make "aldente"
In the name of the GFSM may SBUY.

[Umar001]

Balthasar21 < Says > First you have to make up you mind which School Of Though you will use against me ,

Which school of thought when we are to discuss the validity of hadith? Lol. You know non Muslims discuss the validity of Hadith, do they follow a school of thought?

Next thing you'll do is closed out the post because of my answer like you have done , Naaaaaa you don't want to try to school me of all people . Your not ready for me Yet .

Interesting how you 'predict' my very moves, yet fail to answer questions. :)

Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.

Regards,

Eesa :)

Do you normally ignore questions you find hard to answer? Did you ever reply about to the question about the article's creation on the other thread?

You speak of Hadith Yes Laughing here . Are you saying I Can Start A Post On Hadith's And you or any of the Moderators / Administrator Will Not Closed / Remove / Delete The Post YES or No ? ... Beware of what you ask for ok .

I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. :) As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.

How can you not see what going when you read every post I post LOLOLOL

Great assumption, you think I read all of your posts? I did when you were new here, I put some effort, but after a while, I thought it best to leave you be, since you harldly replied to questions. Some people hear but hear not and see but see not. :)

So if you want to give me alink to a post where you were insulted plesae do, if not then don't complain.

Not to mention the quran has multiple writers"scribes if you wish" like the bible. The ability verify whether the quran changed before it was offically written down is impossible.

The two are miles apart. I might not have a video camera with footage but the chances are nowhere near each other.

Regards,

[ranma1/2]

ccn i ask u sumtingz if u dnt mind.. why dnt u blive in god? bcuz u dont feel God? hav u tried 2 sit dwn and think abt dis? isnt better to blive in God than not 2? whats rong wid blieve in Allah? give me good valid bad points please.. they arent insultz and threats..!!! theyr just wht our lord told us in the Qur'aan abt the kafirs (disbelievers)

l337??

1t l337 iz v3r4 4n0y1n5.

Why do you not believe in the christian god, IPU, GFSM, Zeus, Ball, SHiva.. ect...?
How does one feel god? Emotions?
Many atheists were former theists /deists and have thought in great detail about this.
Why is it good to believe in a god? Apart from the obvious pascals wager argument I see it better to not believe in a god. I am able to act better and live a better life without wasting time or performing actions in the name of someone else for some imaginary prize. I feel my actions are performed more selflessly and I spend my time wiser.
What wrong with believing in allah? Well apart from how poor of being i see alah, i see a problem with believing in something without any evidence. Even if "allah did exists i would not worship a being as described in the bible, torah or quran. I see those beings as not worthy of being worshiped.
And threating hellfire or calling nonbelievers names is using threats and insults.

[ranma1/2]

Keep in mind no translation is the Qur'an. I believe most muslim when speaking to a non-Arabic speaking, Non-Muslim, would do his/her best to make that understood. Most will explain that there are several very good translations, yet none of them give an accurate meaning in all sentences.

Arabic simply can not be translated accuratly into another language. Any translation is biased an the attempted views by the translator to Explain it in the other language. For a non-Arabic speaker to get a close concept of the Qur'an it is best to view several trasnslation and then seek the opinions of an Ababic speaking Muslim.

To a person desiring to be Muslim, it is their responsibility to learn all they can about Islam from all possible sources. And then make their choice from knowledge they have sought and found themselves. All of us will admit that we do not have the ability to translate purely the Qur'an into your language. We can only state what we believe in terms of your language. We will make mistakes. However, no Muslim would deliberatly use the Qur'an to deceive.

Regaurding translations.
Why would god not make multiple perfecft translations? It seems to be a big mistake. Not to meniton even if you are a native speaker of arabic you have to have a "scholar" translate or tell you what it means. You too are not reading theactual quran. What you lose is meaning. Are you familiar with shakespear? Even if you are a native speaker of the language you still have to get a "translation" of what they said to what it means now.

[Pygoscelis]

No matter how you slice / dice it the christian God was here before the muslim God Allah . Now if I'm wrong show me in your Qur'aan word for word date for date , Chapter for chapter , Verse for verse , No '' Hadiyth '' Which are word of men that can't be back up with your Qur'aan . When did Allah came into existance .

You are making a major error in your logic. The Quran could be written TODAY, never before seen and Allah could still have predated Jehovah (assuming for the moment that the two exist). If these Gods exist then the holy books did not create them, and it is irrelevant when the holy books came to be. The books would just be communications with the God, not God itself.

Are You Looking For Another Way To Closed Out Another Post Because You Can't Deal With Other Answer ?

I agree with you that they are wrong, and that Allah isn't a God at all but an idea, and that it came to be when the Quran was written. But that simply isn't their paradigm or view. You asked them a question (When did Allah come to be). They answered it. It appears to be YOU who can not deal with their answer.

[ranma1/2]

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

Woodrow you are one of my honest favorites here.
You always seem to be in good humour and not bat quano crazy.
Keep up with the humor and good nature. Peace.

[ranma1/2]

Apparently you are using the freeware demo version. While it is excellent for showing the product, it does not contain the full features and is not under full warranty. In order to obtain the full version it is necessary to complete the Manufacturers contract, which we refer to as the Shahadah, the full manual which we call the Qur'an is available for free upon request. There are previous models still in existence but it is advised to be cautious of using them as they have been abused by previous users and the warranty has been violated and is no longer in effect for them. For the full warranty, you need to use the genuine product as provided by the Manufacturer.

So how do we reach the manufacturer. I have written, sent emails, called, etc and I never get a reply. Of course perhaps Im sending to the wrong address or manufacturer. ;)

[ranma1/2]

Question ; Was The prophet Muhammad influenced by The Christians ???

christian responce, - yes.
muslim repsonce - no
mine- yes.

[ranma1/2]

:salamext:



Guys (Woodrow and sis Malaikah), i think the trust was given to Adam, and since he was the first human, obviously it continued through his lineage. :) I think that's explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

which is horrible way of punishing the children for what the parents did.

I would like some evidence that allah knows best. "quite a few design flaws in his creation and all"

[ranma1/2]

Now everyone know the christian God was here before the muslims God Allah Muslims God came 1400 years later , That why I ask were you given a two fold answer .

He is saying that the jews and the christians did not correctly write down the answer. Mohammad did. "of course all religions say this pretty much"

They of course have to say this or they lose a lot of ground.

[ranma1/2]

Oooh, its a long one with many twists and turns...but...

Muslims beleive that their God is the Christian and Jewish god, but he came to them (arabs) with a update, because the Jews had corrupted the "word"
The corruption of the word required retelling parts of it in a very different manner, which annoyed the jews and started a 1374 year long fight.

Jews beleive their message is right, because they got it first. It tells them that they are special and the best.

Christians beleive that The Jewish god came down to earth and switched from a ***** God into a Peaceful all loving god, told everyone to love him and everyone else, then went back up....about the same time as his death....which saved mankind from his own wrath. It gets confusing.

that wraps it up.

of course what gets me is why it took so long for alah to send down the correct version of his religion. But i guess he knew best that by not doing so there would be much conflict. He must have wanted this conflcit right?

[ranma1/2]

:D
Have you read "Life of Pi" ......

Speaking of
Pi.

Why is pi= to 3 in the bible?

[ranma1/2]

Such a foolish question that only the most wretched would ask.

wow insults? I take it you dont know the answer?

[ranma1/2]

I love it when guys play on words . No matter how you play it the muslims God Allah came into existence1400 years after the Christian God .

the muslim concept came into existence. From their point of view he always existed. He was just really bad at getting his message across.

[Woodrow]

So how do we reach the manufacturer. I have written, sent emails, called, etc and I never get a reply. Of course perhaps Im sending to the wrong address or manufacturer. ;)

I may have difficulty in giving you proper directions. I never quite made it to aetheist status just to agnostic. It was in that stage that I reverted to Islam.

Actually I was not told the address by any person and had no intention of looking for it. I just came to the realization that I knew the address and it was time for me to go home.

[barney]

The arguement that he is bad at getting his message across is best answered as:
He was giving people a chance to straighten out their corruption of his word, then when they diddnt do it, he chose Mohammed.

Not that I beleive this, I'm just trying to think how belivers would answer that point.

[Malaikah]

the muslim concept came into existence. From their point of view he always existed. He was just really bad at getting his message across.

You can only make this statement assuming you know exactly what God's aim was... and you don't know that.

God has sent thousands of messengers over time. All they are meant to do is deliver the message, what people do with it is their choice.

In Islam we do not believe that God's intention is to provide proof of the validity of Islam that is so blatantly clear that every person who sees it will immediately believe. In that case it would not be believing it would be knowing.

The majority of the world is now following God's message (Muslims), or a manipulated part of it (Judaism/Christianity). I would say the message came across rather strongly.

[barney]

[QUOTE=Malaikah;764785]You can only make this statement assuming you know exactly what God's aim was... and you don't know that.

God has sent thousands of messengers over time. All they are meant to do is deliver the message, what people do with it is their choice.

QUOTE]

I'm sure gods aim wasnt to keep sending vastly differing messages every 500 years all written in incomprehensible religiospeak, each time claiming to overwrite his last "message".

A prophecy from Douglas Adams revealed Gods final message would be found written in letters accross the galaxy 14000 miles high.
"WE APOLOGISE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE"

[Malaikah]

I'm sure gods aim wasnt to keep sending vastly differing messages every 500 years all written in incomprehensible religiospeak, each time claiming to overwrite his last "message".

It obviously was not His aim, as He never did that.

The messengers all had an identical message in terms of belief (such as the Oneness of Allah, the reason of creation, the reality of the coming of the Day of Judgement, the existence of Angels, Prophets/Messengers, that Adam was the first human, that Allah sends books to some messengers.)

The only thing that differed was the law.

And messengers where not sent over 500 years, some where sent at the same time as other, some directly after... etc.

And not all Prophets over wrote the law of the last (law- not message. The message was always the same). Many of them keep the same law.

[Gangster No.1]

the disbelievers, are surely misguided, they ask, but they cant take what the answer is.

Allah has told you the punishments of the people who dont believe in Allah.


What I am personally thinking is:

You have been told the punishments of disbelieveing in Allah. Yet you still dont believe before or after you have been told about the punishmenets.

Therefore when you do die, perhaps today, or next year, or maybe when you 67, the principle is not going to change, your ganna die jus lyk a muslim is going to die, basislaclly your not ganna be here in this life, now HERE is where there is no going back.........death!

And because death has arrived, not ever going back to where you were from, the future for the believer and disbeliever is only infront of you. There is only two ways 2 go, ryt.

Now you were told about Allah in this life........Yet you still you believed/disbelieved...............iehter way you will find out, there and then.

And then this is where a BELIVER & NON-BELIVER will know there place!

Angel will ask:
WHO IS YOU LORD?

MUSLIM WILL SAY: ALLAH
NON-BELIEVER WILL SAY: I DONT NO

ANGLE WILL ASK:
WHAT IS YOUR RELIGION?

mUSLIM WILL SAY: ISLAM
NON BELIEVER WILL SAY: I DONT NO/DONT HAVE ONE etc

ANGEL WILL ASK:
WHO WAS THIS MAN SENT DOWN, DID YOU BELIEVE?

MUSLIM WILL SAY: HE WAS MUHAMMAD (p.b.u.h)
DISBELIEVER WILL SAY: i DONT NO/DINT BELIEVE




and that is the root from where you will be taken from---where your future of evr living/ never ganna die from there!

And when you have believed in Allah in this life and hereafter you will be rewared for your deeds,

However YOU dint believe..........BUT now you belive because for the first time you will see the truth in your own eyes, you will feel the truth from the punishments you are going to be given.........YET NOW YOU BELIEVE....ABIT TOO LATE NOW!

so here we are talking bout the truth, yet you dont feel/ dont believe in Allah....

just remeber one thing DEATH is round the CORNER!

are you ready?


i leave your thoughts 2 be with yourself and Allah, who has my soul, and there is no god but allah, and his beloved messeneger is Muhammad (pb.u.h).

ALLAH HU AKBAR! ALLAH HU AKBAR! ALLAH HU AKBAR

[Pygoscelis]

just remeber one thing DEATH is round the CORNER!

are you ready?

Well hold on. I'm not quite ready. I'd like the grim reaper to wait just a moment while I finnish this slice of pizza. Ok, now I'm ready.

Seriously though, threats of hellfire only work to KEEP believers. It does nothing to get new ones. Because the threat of hell and promise of heaven are only as powerful as belief in them.

If I told you that if you worship my dog you'll get an eternity of bliss I doubt you'd do it. And if I told you if you fail to worship my dog you will be forever drowned in strawberry jello, I bet you'd go on not worshiping my dog too.

[Gangster No.1]

Well hold on. I'm not quite ready. I'd like the grim reaper to wait just a moment while I finnish this slice of pizza. Ok, now I'm ready.

Seriously though, threats of hellfire only work to KEEP believers. It does nothing to get new ones. Because the threat of hell and promise of heaven are only as powerful as belief in them.

If I told you that if you worship my dog you'll get an eternity of bliss I doubt you'd do it. And if I told you if you fail to worship my dog you will be forever drowned in strawberry jello, I bet you'd go on not worshiping my dog too.

Now thats what i call a '****' example! but dont blame you when your speaking out ya arse.
lol.!!!!

Knowldge is a better word i should have used, because allah is giving us knowledge and what is the knowledge about life and death, purpose of life, and in the quran it dont just say about the punishments of disbelieving, it tells you so many diffrent issues.

However in this particular circumstance we are talking about ''PUNISHMENTS'' of a disbeliver, so talking in this sence what you need to understand is that allah is giving you and me and the world of beliveing and non-believing the knowldge of the after life!

Yes at the moment you dont see this happening, you dont no if its true, becuase you havnt seen it for yourslef, howver knowledge is the fundemanetal aspect of life, without what can you do, erm..nothng.

Allah has given this knowledge to the ''whole mankind'' the prophet muhammad was a messenger to ALL people.

if you dont belive in it, then thats difrent, but learing the knowldge is diffeent, it teaches you, and makes you understand why, and what, if you just dont belive and say that it is not true i dont belive your only satisfying yourself for few secs or for however long.

it isnt a threat, its REALITY, and a PROMISE!

and this promise is from no one else apart from the one who can create the moon and starts, the oceans and the galaxy, the planets, the one who has created you, gave you life, gave you a heart!

and this promise is from Alllah. However when you here the words of Allah, you seem to be allergic to it, becuase you cant bare the fact that islam is the truth.

May allah guide us all!

[carpetguy]

allah knows best, always good to speal to an alim to make sure

[MustafaMc]

Seriously though, threats of hellfire only work to KEEP believers. It does nothing to get new ones. Because the threat of hell and promise of heaven are only as powerful as belief in them.

Our responsibility is not to "get new ones" by converting others. Our responsibility is to convey the Message and to warn of the punishment for not believing - it is for Allah to guide one to the Truth or to leave him astray.

[Pygoscelis]

it isnt a threat, its REALITY, and a PROMISE!

and this promise is from no one else apart from the one who can create the moon and starts, the oceans and the galaxy, the planets, the one who has created you, gave you life, gave you a heart!

Ya, same with my dog and his jello. He created you one day when he was bored and you will drown in his fruity desert item unless you repent and rub his devine tummy.

See, my point is that while you believe all you say, others don't. And those who don't are not going to be swayed by promises or threats they see as imaginary.

[Gangster No.1]

Ya, same with my dog and his jello. He created you one day when he was bored and you will drown in his fruity desert item unless you repent and rub his devine tummy.

See, my point is that while you believe all you say, others don't. And those who don't are not going to be swayed by promises or threats they see as imaginary.

You seriously are daft!
more than daft, but not allowed 2 say on hear. lol!

but how stupid are You, very stupid indeed, how can a dog create me?
when he's ganna die in a few yrs sumet!

your seriously daft! i think you need to study sum more, you aint very intelligant are you? nah dint think so.

[Pygoscelis]

You seriously are daft!
more than daft, but not allowed 2 say on hear. lol!

but how stupid are You, very stupid indeed, how can a dog create me?
when he's ganna die in a few yrs sumet!

your seriously daft! i think you need to study sum more, you aint very intelligant are you? nah dint think so.

Think you can fit any more adhoms into that post?

You are awfully quick on the personal attacks and accusations of stupidity and delusion for somebody claiming a rather fantasic tale about a magical "God" being as fact.

[Balthasar21]

Al Habeshi < Says > Which school of thought when we are to discuss the validity of hadith? Lol. You know non Muslims discuss the validity of Hadith, do they follow a school of thought?


Balthasar21 < Says > First of all , All '' Hadith's '' That are not back up with verses from the Quraan . Are just words of men no more no less , Their 1000's upon 1000's of '' Hadith's '' Matter of fact they're more '' Hadiths '' verses then they're Qur'aan verse . This show you these guy's were making up thing as time went by . This is why you hear muslims says '' The Hadith's '' Says this or that . What about the words of Allah Which is the Qur'aan . They're certain '' Hadiths '' that really make muhammad '' Look Bad '' . When I speak of the '' Diffrent Schools Of Thought , I'm speaking of the 82 diffrent sect of muslims , Which Have Their Own Belief' / Teaching , Just like the christians have many diffrent '' Denomination '' Where you have some christian says they're under grace , and not under law Etc . But that all believe in Jesus , Just like all 82 diffrent sect of muslims accept muhammad as the prophet of Allah . So you can play LOLOLOL like you don't overstand what I'm saying , When I Say School Of Thought . It cool .



Al Habeshi < Says > Interesting how you 'predict' my very moves, yet fail to answer questions.



Balthasar21 < Says > At one time you were following me around trying answer my post , Until I ask you why are you following me around . Then you slow up a bit , Now your back again lolololololol . Your on a mission to prove what I'm saying is '' Wrong '' which you will never be -able too , And thats because your not allow to think out-side of your belief's . As far as me answering your question I have answer your question , You have a problem with my answers , You think that you can go to your favorite website and come back and here the answers. LOLOLOLOLOL. Wrong .



Al Habeshi < Says > Just out of curiousity what post have I closed that you mention 'Another'? I'm getting on abit and I forget sometimes.


Balthasar21 < Says > I'm not buying the above you know which ones , But hey its no big thing , You'll do it again or you will have one of the mods remove / closed it out .


Al Habeshi < Says > Do you normally ignore questions you find hard to answer? Did you ever reply about to the question about the article's creation on the other thread?


Balthasar21 < Says > read the above ok , Same question ask in a diffrent way .


Al Habeshi < Says > I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.


Balthasar21 < Says > I have no problem discussing things , your the one who can't deal with my answer . The question should be can you discuss in a constructive civilised manner, And not call me name as you have in the pass because I didn't agree with you . Remember something when one give repect they get respect , It has nothing to do with age ,



Al Habeshi < Says > Great assumption, you think I read all of your posts? I did when you were new here, I put some effort, but after a while, I thought it best to leave you be, since you harldly replied to questions. Some people hear but hear not and see but see not.


Balthasar21 < Says > LOLOLOLOLOLOL takeing little pop shots LOLOLOLLOL By the way your still reading my post , You can't help yourself and you know it . And no it not my ego talking , its the truth ,


Al Habeshi < Says > So if you want to give me alink to a post where you were insulted plesae do, if not then don't complain.


Balthasar21 < Says > complaining Naaaaaaaa just show how you only see what you want see that all . I can take it as well as give it . Like I have said before it will happen again . We'll see who you will try to silence first your muslims brother or that little girl with that garbage mouth , She really make the muslim woman look real bad , You would think she would have more respect for herself being a muslim woman .

[barney]

the disbelievers, are surely misguided, they ask, but they cant take what the answer is.

Allah has told you the punishments of the people who dont believe in Allah.


What I am personally thinking is:

You have been told the punishments of disbelieveing in Allah. Yet you still dont believe before or after you have been told about the punishmenets.

Therefore when you do die, perhaps today, or next year, or maybe when you 67, the principle is not going to change, your ganna die jus lyk a muslim is going to die, basislaclly your not ganna be here in this life, now HERE is where there is no going back.........death!

And because death has arrived, not ever going back to where you were from, the future for the believer and disbeliever is only infront of you. There is only two ways 2 go, ryt.

Now you were told about Allah in this life........Yet you still you believed/disbelieved...............iehter way you will find out, there and then.

And then this is where a BELIVER & NON-BELIVER will know there place!

Angel will ask:
WHO IS YOU LORD?

MUSLIM WILL SAY: ALLAH
NON-BELIEVER WILL SAY: I DONT NO

ANGLE WILL ASK:
WHAT IS YOUR RELIGION?

mUSLIM WILL SAY: ISLAM
NON BELIEVER WILL SAY: I DONT NO/DONT HAVE ONE etc

ANGEL WILL ASK:
WHO WAS THIS MAN SENT DOWN, DID YOU BELIEVE?

MUSLIM WILL SAY: HE WAS MUHAMMAD (p.b.u.h)
DISBELIEVER WILL SAY: i DONT NO/DINT BELIEVE




and that is the root from where you will be taken from---where your future of evr living/ never ganna die from there!

And when you have believed in Allah in this life and hereafter you will be rewared for your deeds,

However YOU dint believe..........BUT now you belive because for the first time you will see the truth in your own eyes, you will feel the truth from the punishments you are going to be given.........YET NOW YOU BELIEVE....ABIT TOO LATE NOW!

so here we are talking bout the truth, yet you dont feel/ dont believe in Allah....

just remeber one thing DEATH is round the CORNER!

are you ready?


i leave your thoughts 2 be with yourself and Allah, who has my soul, and there is no god but allah, and his beloved messeneger is Muhammad (pb.u.h).

ALLAH HU AKBAR! ALLAH HU AKBAR! ALLAH HU AKBAR

Surely we are not.
For we have contemplated its message and its history and we said . "Lo, Surely this was written by man, and has no connection with the realitys of the universe. For it was not written, (except just now), that we do not know, but only the creator knows, and even then may-hap he dosnt if he's not around anymore, what happens unto our souls, if such a thing existed"

"Therefore, we shall all die, mayby tommorow mayby when we are 67, and then we shall find out.And there will be a good many upon the last days who will die and they will sayeth ..."Umm? Err? What the heck? It's not supposed to be like this"....If they had but windpipes to speak with or air to say it with"

"Therefore, hence , head forth and make use of your time here, to spread harmony, peace amongst people of all nations, and wrappeth thyself not up in words written to socially coerce the gullible ancients for political ends or power- but do right by others and yourself, if ye wish to make a difference in the world. For 20 hail marys, wearing a box on thy head with papers in it or waking up at 3 in the morning to indoctrinate thyself still further avails ye not"

[ranma1/2]

You can only make this statement assuming you know exactly what God's aim was... and you don't know that.

God has sent thousands of messengers over time. All they are meant to do is deliver the message, what people do with it is their choice.

In Islam we do not believe that God's intention is to provide proof of the validity of Islam that is so blatantly clear that every person who sees it will immediately believe. In that case it would not be believing it would be knowing.

The majority of the world is now following God's message (Muslims), or a manipulated part of it (Judaism/Christianity). I would say the message came across rather strongly.

Well if god was trying to get a message across he did a bad job. Of course maybe god was actually aiming to cause caos and harm. Who knows? As you said I dont know what his aim was. And what is wrong with knowing? If god is going to punish you for things you did not know then he sounds pretty poor to me. And the majority of the world is not following gods message. Many may think they are but many of those religions have happily killed others of different religions.

Now if I wanted to get my message across and I had gods power I would definitly be better at doing it and still allow for free will.

[Umar001]

Now if I wanted to get my message across and I had gods power I would definitly be better at doing it and still allow for free will.

Out of curiousity, I havent followed the discussion dot for dot, so I will just ask, what would you have done, maybe that can be another thread if you want, so we dont go too off topic.

Regards

Eesa

[ranma1/2]

Ｔhe disbelievers, are surely misguided, they ask, but they cant take what the answer is.

ＧＦＳＭ has told you the punishments of the people who dont believe in ｉｔ．

And then this is where a BELIVER & NON-BELIVER will know there place!

ＩＰＵ will ask:
WHO IS YOU ＰＡＳＴＡ?

Ｐａｓｔａｆａｒｉａｎｓ WILL SAY: ＧＦＳＭ
NON-BELIEVER WILL SAY: ｐａｓｔａ？？　　ａｌｆｒｅｄｏ　ｉ　ｇｕｅｓｓ．．．？

ＩＰＵ WILL ASK:
WHAT IS YOUR RELIGION?

Ｐａｓｔａｆａｒｉａｎ WILL SAY:　Ｐａｓｔａｆａｒｉａｎｉｓｍ
NON BELIEVER WILL SAY: I DONT NO/DONT HAVE ONE，　ｉｓｌａｍ，ｃｈｒｉｓｔｉｎａｉｔｙ，　ＩＰＵ　ｅｔｃ．．．

ANGEL WILL ASK:
WHO WAS THIS MAN SENT DOWN, DID YOU BELIEVE?

Ｐａｓｔａｆａｒｉａｎｓ WILL SAY: HE WAS ｔｈｅ　ｐｒｏｈｐｅｔ (Ｓａｕｃｅ.bｅ.uｐｏｎ.hｉｍ)
DISBELIEVER WILL SAY: ｉ　ｄｏｎｔ　ｋｎｏｗ，　ｃｈｒｉｓｔ，　ｍｏｈａｍｍａｄ．　ｅｔｃ．．．

Ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅｎｔ　ｈｅ　ＩＰＵ　ｗｉｌｌ　ｓａｙ．．
Ｔｈａｔｓ　ｃｏｏｌ　ｓｏ　ｗｈｏ　ｗａｓ　ｇｏｏｄ　ａｎｄ　ｗｈｏ　ｂａｄ．
Ｏｋ　ｅｖｅｒｙｏｎｅ　ｓｔｅｐ　ｉｎｔｏ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｈｏｔ　ｐｏｔ　ｏｆ　ｗａｔｅｒ． 　Ｇｏｏｄ　 ｇｕｙｓ　ｙｏｕ　ｃａｎ　ｇｅｔ　ｏｕｔ　ｗｈｅｎ　ｙｏｕ　ｒｅａｃｈ　ｔｈｅ　ｐｅｒｆ ｅｃｔ　ｐｏ ｉｎｔ　ｏｆ　ａｌｄｅｎｔｅ．　Ｂａｄ　ｇｕｙｓ　ｙｏｕ　ｓｔａｙ　ｉｎ　ｔｉｌｌ　ｙｏ ｕｒ　ａｌｌ 　ｒｕｂｂｅｒｙ．


And when you have believed in ＧＦＳＭin this life and hereafter you will be rewared for your deeds　ａｎｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｆｏｒ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅｉｎｇ　ｉｎ　ＧＦＳＭ．


so here we are talking bout the truth, yet you dont feel/ dont believe in ｔｈｅ　Ｇｒｅａｔ　Ｆｌｙｉｎｇ　Ｓｐａｇｅｔｔｉ　Ｍｏｎｓｔｅｒ....　”ａｎｄ　ｈ ｅ　ｄｏｅｓ ｎｔ　ｃａｒｅ”




i leave your thoughts ｔｏ be with yourself and ＧＦＳＭ, who has my sａｕｃｅl, and there is no god but ＧＦＳＭ　”ｂｕｔ　ｈｅ　ｄｏｅｓｎｔ　ｃａｒｅ　ｉｆ　ｙｏｕ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ　ｉｎ　ｈ ｉｍ　ｏｒ　 ｎｏｔ　ｃａｕｓｅ　ｈｅｓ　ｃｏｏｌ　ｌｉｋｅ　ｔｈａｔ｝, and his beloved messeneger is Ｊａｃｋ　Ｓｐａｒｒｏｗ． (Ｓ．b.u.h).

[Umar001]

Am pretty confused bro. what would you exactly have done? This spaghetti and pastafarian thing is bafflin me.

[ranma1/2]

Out of curiousity, I havent followed the discussion dot for dot, so I will just ask, what would you have done, maybe that can be another thread if you want, so we dont go too off topic.

Regards

Eesa

Ｗｅｌｌ　ｂｅｉｎｇ　ｇｏｄ　ａｎ　ａｌｌ　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｂｒｏｕｇｈｔ　ｈ ａｖｅ　ｗｒ ｉｔｔｅｎ　ｍｙ　ｈｏｌｙ　ｂｏｏｋ　ｍｙｓｅｌｆ　ａｎｄ　ｌｅａｖｅ　ｐｒｏｐｈｅｔｓ 　ｏｕｔ　ｏ ｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｌｏｏｐ　”ｔｈｅｙ　ａｌｗａｙｓ　ｉｎｔｅｒｐｒｅｔ　ｉｔ　ｔｈｅｉｒ 　ｏｗｎ　ｗ ａｙ”　Ｉ　ａｌｓｏ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ｔａｋｅｎ　ｍｏｒｅ　ｔｈａｎ　 ａ　ｓｃｏｎ ｄ　ｔｏ　ｇｅｔ　ｉｔ　ｐｕｔ　ｏｕｔ．
Ａｌｓｏ　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｓｉｍｕｔａｎｅｏｕｓｌｙ　ｓｈｏｗ　ｕｐ　ｔｏ　ｅｖｅｒｙｏ ｎｅ　ａｎｄ 　ｇｉｖｅ　ｔｈｅｍ　ｍｙ　ｔｅｘｔ　ｗｒｉｔｔｅｎ　ａｓ　ａ　ｐｅｒｆｅｃｔ　ｔｒａｎ ｓｌａｔｉｏ ｎ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｏｎｅ　ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ　ｔｏ　ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ．　　Ｔｈｅｓｅ　ｔｅｘｔ　 ｗｏｕｌｄ　 ｏｆ　ｃｏｕｒｓｅ　ｂｅ　ｍａｇｉｃａｌ　ｓｏ　ａｎｙｏｎｅ　ｒｅａｄｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅ　ｔ ｅｘｔ　　ｗ ｏｕｌｄ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｍｅｎｔ　ａｎｄ　ｗａｎｔｅｄ　ｓｏ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｗｏ ｕｌｄ　ｂｅ 　ｎｏ　ｎｅｅｄ　ｆｏｒ　ｂｉａｓｅｄ　ｒｅｌｉｇｉｏｕｓ　ｓｃｈｏｌａｒｓ　ｏｒ　ｓｏ ｍｅ　ｏｔｈ ｅｒ　ｐｏｗｅｒ　ｆｉｇｕｒｅ　ｔｏ　ｔｅｌｌ　ｔｈｅｍ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｍｅｎｔ．
Ｉ　ａｍ　ｇｏｄ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ａｌｌ　ｓｏ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｐｏｓｓｉｂｌｅ ．　　Ａｎｄ 　ｔｈｅ　ｂｅｓｔ　ｐａｒｔ　ｉｓ　ｔｈａｔ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｓｔｉｌｌ　ｈａ ｖｅ　ｆｒｅ ｅ　ｗｉｌｌ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ｔｏ　ｈａｖｅ　ｆａｉｔｈ 　ｉｎ　ｍｅ 　ｓｉｎｃｅ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｅｖｉｄｅｎｃｅ　ｏｆ　ｍｙ　ｅｘｉｓｔｅ ｎｃｅ　ａｎ ｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｌ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｅｘａｃｔｌｙ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｅｘｐｅｃｔｅ ｄ　ｏｆ　ｔ ｈｅｍ．　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｓｏ　ａｌｌｏｗ　ｑｕｅｓｔｉｏｎｓ　ａｎｄ　ａｎｓｗｅｒ 　ｓｅｓｓｉ ｏｎｓ．　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ａ　ｐｅｒｓｏｎａｌ　ｇｏｄ．　　

[Umar001]

So it seems you would create this life, but why create a book? Why not just speak to people's minds? And are you going to create a personal book for everyone?

If that's the case why would you create this life? What would be the purpose behind it?

[snakelegs]

ranma,
your last post shows as nothing but little squares on my computer and the one before it has some little squares.
have we been infiltrated by a muslim space alien?

[Pygoscelis]

Out of curiousity, I havent followed the discussion dot for dot, so I will just ask, what would you have done, maybe that can be another thread if you want, so we dont go too off topic.

Regards

Eesa

I agree that the Bible, Quran, and other holy books are evidence against themeslves. A God would not need such a text. She could simply make you know what she wants you to know. You would stll have free will how to act with that information.

The message I get from these books is that the Gods of these books don't want you to understand their messages, and enjoy being cryptic, or they simply don't exist and these books are written by men claiming to speak for Gods.

[BrentonEccles]

This is really low.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

ranma,
your last post shows as nothing but little squares on my computer and the one before it has some little squares.
have we been infiltrated by a muslim space alien?

haha :p

let me try to copy & paste the post


Ｗｅｌｌ　ｂｅｉｎｇ　ｇｏｄ　ａｎ　ａｌｌ　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ
　ｂｒｏｕｇｈｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ｗｒ ｉｔｔｅｎ

　ｍｙ　ｈｏｌｙ　ｂｏｏｋ　ｍｙｓｅｌｆ

　ａｎｄ　ｌｅａｖｅ　ｐｒｏｐｈｅｔｓ　ｏｕｔ　ｏ ｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｌｏｏｐ　”ｔｈｅｙ　ａｌｗａｙｓ　ｉｎｔｅｒｐｒｅｔ　

ｉｔ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｏｗｎ　ｗａｙ ”　Ｉ　ａｌｓｏ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ｔａｋｅｎ　ｍｏｒｅ　ｔｈａｎ　ａ　ｓｃｏ ｎｄ　 ｔｏ 　ｇｅｔ

　ｉｔ　ｐｕｔ　ｏｕｔ．


Ａｌｓｏ　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｓｉｍｕｔａｎｅｏｕｓｌｙ　ｓｈｏｗ　ｕｐ　ｔｏ　ｅｖｅｒｙｏ ｎｅ　ａｎｄ 　ｇｉｖｅ　ｔｈｅｍ　ｍｙ　ｔｅｘｔ　ｗｒｉｔｔｅｎ　ａｓ　ａ　ｐｅｒｆｅｃｔ　ｔｒａｎ ｓｌａｔｉｏ ｎ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｏｎｅ　ｌａｎｇｕａｇｅ　ｔｏ　ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ．　


　Ｔｈｅｓｅ　ｔｅｘｔ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　 ｏｆ　ｃｏｕｒｓｅ　ｂｅ　ｍａｇｉｃａｌ　ｓｏ　ａｎｙｏｎｅ　ｒｅａｄｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅ　ｔ ｅｘｔ　　ｗ ｏｕｌｄ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｍｅｎｔ　ａｎｄ　ｗａｎｔｅｄ　ｓｏ　ｔｈｅｒｅ　ｗｏ ｕｌｄ　ｂｅ 　ｎｏ　ｎｅｅｄ　ｆｏｒ　ｂｉａｓｅｄ　ｒｅｌｉｇｉｏｕｓ　ｓｃｈｏｌａｒｓ　ｏｒ　ｓｏ ｍｅ　ｏｔｈ ｅｒ　ｐｏｗｅｒ　ｆｉｇｕｒｅ　ｔｏ　ｔｅｌｌ　ｔｈｅｍ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｍｅｎｔ．


Ｉ　ａｍ　ｇｏｄ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ａｌｌ　ｓｏ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ｐｏｓｓｉｂｌｅ ．　　Ａｎｄ 　ｔｈｅ　ｂｅｓｔ　ｐａｒｔ　ｉｓ　ｔｈａｔ　ｐｅｏｐｌｅ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｓｔｉｌｌ　ｈａ ｖｅ　ｆｒｅ ｅ　ｗｉｌｌ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｎｏｔ　ｈａｖｅ　ｔｏ　ｈａｖｅ　ｆａｉｔｈ 　ｉｎ　ｍｅ 　ｓｉｎｃｅ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｈａｖｅ　ｅｖｉｄｅｎｃｅ　ｏｆ　ｍｙ　ｅｘｉｓｔｅ ｎｃｅ　ａｎ ｄ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｌ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｅｘａｃｔｌｙ　ｗｈａｔ　ｉ　ｅｘｐｅｃｔｅ ｄ　ｏｆ　ｔ ｈｅｍ．　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｓｏ　ａｌｌｏｗ　ｑｕｅｓｔｉｏｎｓ　ａｎｄ　ａｎｓｗｅｒ 　ｓｅｓｓｉ ｏｎｓ．　Ｉ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｂｅ　ａ　ｐｅｒｓｏｎａｌ　ｇｏｄ

[barney]

I agree that the Bible, Quran, and other holy books are evidence against themeslves. A God would not need such a text. She could simply make you know what she wants you to know. You would stll have free will how to act with that information.

The message I get from these books is that the Gods of these books don't want you to understand their messages, and enjoy being cryptic, or they simply don't exist and these books are written by men claiming to speak for Gods.

Agree totally.
A all powerful omnipresent deity would be perfectly capable of just "letting people know", no confusion, no translation from"perfect arabic" into imperfect portugese or whatever.

I think it's very unlikely that the Gods" dont want us to understand" or "enjoy being cryptic", I mean yeh, that would be a laugh for a while, but the joke would get boring after the first thousand years. The books are written by men , (not women), claiming to speak for God.

The question is why?
I think mostly because the Prophets really truely beleived they were speaking to God. Lots of people think that today. Those that start shouting that they have a message from god are laughed at or sometimes locked up in the lunatic assylum. At worst , we have the Waco style prophets, a prime example of what can happen when prophethood goes unchecked. Kesh, if he had being living in another time and another place would have had a massive following, Why did Kesh do it? Power obviously was the major factor. He was very very rich by the time he was taken down, and wealth and influence would have been major factors. But I think that very few prophets start saying they are having direct links with god for just these reasons. I think they really truely beleive it. They tell people and if theyre delt with in the wrong way....bad things happen. And religions start.
If Joseph Smith had charged into his mates house that morning saying "OMGOMG! Ive just seen gabriel!" and his mate had smacked him hard round the face and said "Chill out man, bad dream...lets get down the pub". Mormanism would have died there and then. No planet Kolob, no funny hats, nobody wasting their time and lives getting submerged in a man's fantasys.

[glo]

This is really low.

What do you mean, Brenton?

Also, welcome to LI!! :thankyou:
If you want to tell us a bit about yourself, here is the place to do so.

We don't always agree with each other here (especially in the Comparative Religion and the World Affairs section), and sometimes things get a bit heated ... but on the whole you will find a nice bunch of people here.

Peace :)

[glo]

Agree totally.
A all powerful omnipresent deity would be perfectly capable of just "letting people know", no confusion, no translation from"perfect arabic" into imperfect portugese or whatever.

I think it's very unlikely that the Gods" dont want us to understand" or "enjoy being cryptic", I mean yeh, that would be a laugh for a while, but the joke would get boring after the first thousand years. The books are written by men , (not women), claiming to speak for God.

Hi barney and Pygoscelis (why, oh why did you choose such a complicated forum name??? :rollseyes :D )

You make a great atheist argument!
I have been asked this question myself, and I have no answer ...

I am looking forward to the replies from other believers ...

Have a good day, you guys! :)

[barney]

Hi barney and Pygoscelis (why, oh why did you choose such a complicated forum name??? :rollseyes :D )

You make a great atheist argument!
:)

Actually, It's a agnostic arguement.
The lack of reality in established religion, dosn't invalidate the existance of a creator.


Have fun. :)

[ranma1/2]

ranma,
your last post shows as nothing but little squares on my computer and the one before it has some little squares.
have we been infiltrated by a muslim space alien?

its likly because of my japanese pc. Sometimes it uses differnet fonts.

[ranma1/2]

So it seems you would create this life, but why create a book? Why not just speak to people's minds? And are you going to create a personal book for everyone?

If that's the case why would you create this life? What would be the purpose behind it?

i was going on the line of a book since thats what your god did.
And as i said im god so i could create a personal book for everyone.

[ranma1/2]

This is really low.

greetings , i think you are the first wiccan here.

[Muezzin]

This is really low.

Yeah, I'm no good at limbo either.

High jump on the other hand...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;


ranma1/2 : Christians have told me the truth...Muslims have told me the truth....Buddhists, Hindus and many others have told me the truth... I still don't know the truth.


---- try hard to find out the Truth.

Don't wait for the last day to beg God that pl. pl. send me again in the earth & surely i will obey u & God will answer , if i send u again , u will do the same :omg:



verse of the Day :

If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption!

Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition

Surah 23. The Believers , verse 71

[Umar001]

i was going on the line of a book since thats what your god did.
And as i said im god so i could create a personal book for everyone.

Just wondering, what would you do, not what COULD you do.

And why would you create life in the first place? < Q from before.

[ranma1/2]

Salaam/ peace ;




---- try hard to find out the Truth.


verse of the Day :

always search for the truth and be wary of those that say they have it.

[ranma1/2]

Just wondering, what would you do, not what COULD you do.

And why would you create life in the first place? < Q from before.

well personally i would not create life just so it could worship me.
If you were ask me why i created you i would say, well i was pretty bored and i figured what the heck. I would also tell you that i have not given your life any meaning and it is for you to make meaning for your own life. Give yourself the meaning you want your life to have.

[Umar001]

I guess that the main fundamental difference then. :)

You could create a book, or show yourself, but if your reason for creation is not the same then there's no point in discussing that basic foundation changes everything.

Someone creates humans to look at Him, so He shows himself to them straight away.

Someone creates humans to be lost, so He never gives them any guidence in any shape or form.

And the list goes on.

[ranma1/2]

I guess that the main fundamental difference then. :)

You could create a book, or show yourself, but if your reason for creation is not the same then there's no point in discussing that basic foundation changes everything.

Someone creates humans to look at Him, so He shows himself to them straight away.

Someone creates humans to be lost, so He never gives them any guidence in any shape or form.

And the list goes on.

Well im sure you dont know why god created us.
But regardless of why. If it was your gods intention to let us know he existgs he has as stated done a horribel job at it and If I were in his place or just about anyone, would have done a betterjob.

[Umar001]

Well im sure you dont know why god created us.
But regardless of why. If it was your gods intention to let us know he existgs he has as stated done a horribel job at it and If I were in his place or just about anyone, would have done a betterjob.

I believe I do know, He created us to worship Him.

[barney]

I believe I do know, He created us to worship Him.

That seems pointless & narcassistic.

We are some sort of cheering machine?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

That seems pointless & narcassistic.

We are some sort of cheering machine?

LOL funny

God does not depend on us .....we need Him .

Some people are so brave .......lol...why don't u spend ur courage in a positive way ? Don't give devil a chance to create unnecessary confusion in ur heart , pl.

[barney]

[QUOTE=Muslim Woman;766174
Some people are so brave .......lol...why don't u spend ur courage in a positive way ? [/QUOTE]


I have no fear of god. If there is a omnipresent craetor aware of my existance, then he will judge me on my actions and make his decision.
I live my life by my code of doing no harm to others. If thats good enough for "god" then great. If not, well so what...it was good enough for me. I'm not changing that over threats of burning shirts and boiling stomachs.

If he/it/she is worthy of praise, they would not seek it.
They would not need 5 times a day prayer (reduced after some haggeling from 50 times a day). They would not need Hail marys, and constant addressing everything in our lives to him/her/it.

Tinkerbell dissapears if you dont beleive in her. Would a Creator vanish if it wasnt praised every day?

[Umar001]

That seems pointless & narcassistic.

We are some sort of cheering machine?

Maybe it's your view of worship which brings you to such conclusion.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I live my life by my code of doing no harm to others?

i want you to think about the last 6 months of you living through with this code, in all honesty have you harmed others? :?

[barney]

i want you to think about the last 6 months of you living through with this code, in all honesty have you harmed others? :?

Nope. I may have unavoidibly been late for work once and caused the previous shift to wait 5 minuites longer than neccessery.
It wasnt intentional and I cant see how praying for forgiveness is going to give that person their 5 miniutes back.
I apologised to them at the time. Done deal, no self-flagellating involved.

[Muezzin]

That seems pointless & narcassistic.

We are some sort of cheering machine?

The best way of cheering G-d is to treat his creations with respect. Worship in terms of rituals is simply saying 'Yo, thanks for everything! You're the greatest!'

[England]

I've got a few muslims working at my workplace, you say it's haram for muslims to listen to music. Well basically people put the radio on and notch up the volume therefore the muslim guys and gals HAVE to listen to this music. Would that be haram for them? There's no way of escaping it unless they quit.

[Pygoscelis]

Actually, It's a agnostic arguement.
The lack of reality in established religion, dosn't invalidate the existance of a creator.


Have fun. :)

Yes. Good and fair point. The lack of existence of Gods depicted in the holy texts does NOT establish that there are no Gods that exist (and don't have such texts). It is quite plausible that Gods do exist yet don't interfere with humanity, like the deists believe.

[barney]

Muezzin:
As a agnostic, I admire the world and it's many wonders. I attribute the root of all of this to some craeting force. And i treat it with a certain respect.

Just dont need to pray to do that.

Psygo: Do you think that they once took a interest? Set the ball rolling then moved on?

[ranma1/2]

i want you to think about the last 6 months of you living through with this code, in all honesty have you harmed others? :?

I myself have not harmed others.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

I've got a few muslims working at my workplace, ............ Would that be haram for them? There's no way of escaping it unless they quit.

if one has no choice , no intention to disobey God but s/he was forced , then there is no sin for him/her.

In that case , they may encourgae people to listen to ' halal' songs :D or may try to find other jobs where they won't be forced to listen to haram music.

And God knows best.



verse of the Day :

Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God , nor the angels who are near ( to God ) ; And whosoever rejects His worship and is proud , then He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Chapter Women , verse 172 ( 4: 172 )

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

I myself have not harmed others.

Are u sure ????

may be , u confused other people about God ; thus harm them forever .

Those who reject God will get rewards for good deeds in this world only ...they will be looser in the life hereafter.

If there is no life hereafter , then no worry at all for anyone ; but if there is indeed eternal life , how u will help urself & the people u confused on the last day?


verses of the Day :


And there are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us good in this world and good in the Hereafter, and defend us from the torment of the Fire!"


To these will be allotted what they have earned; and Allah is quick in account. 2:201-202

[Skavau]

Those who reject God will get rewards for good deeds in this world only ...they will be looser in the life hereafter.

If there is no life hereafter , then no worry at all for anyone ; but if there is indeed eternal life , how u will help urself & the people u confused on the last day?

Pascal's Wager is a flawed argument. There are more than simply 2 possibilities after life. What if Thor exists? What if Fundamentalist Christians are right? That would mean both me and you are going to hell.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Pascal's Wager is a flawed argument. There are more than simply 2 possibilities after life.

as i said , if there is no God , no fear at all for any of us. For believers , it will be a great loss of course .......avoid
Satan's tempations through out the whole life & later find out that no God at all .......uhhhhh , can't think of it.

What if Thor exists?

there is only One God . So , no chance of exists of different different gods.......wastage of valuable time to even think about god but not God.

What if Fundamentalist Christians are right? That would mean both me and you are going to hell.

LOL , if really Jesus (p) is God ( may God forgive me for writing this ) , then at least Muslims will be able to explain that Jesus (p) , u told us --"My Father is greater than I." & we obeyed u .

So , don't punish us for worshipping God who is the greatest. .

It's simply impossible that Jesus (p) will be angry at Muslims for worshipping one God only......apply ur logic ....hopefully u will understand :statisfie


But those who deny the existance of God , how can they expect mercy of God ?

[barney]

may be , u confused other people about God ; thus harm them forever .

Thats frankly Impossible. How can a atheist or a Agnostic confuse anyone about God.
They dont beleive in it, so they dont know the truth like a believer does.

Let the Atheists quote facts and logic all day long.
It dosnt change the Truth.

[ranma1/2]

Salaam/ peace ;

as i said , if there is no God , no fear at all for any of us. For believers , it will be a great loss of course .......avoid
Satan's tempations through out the whole life & later find out that no God at all .......uhhhhh , can't think of it.

there is only One God . So , no chance of exists of different different gods.......wastage of valuable time to even think about god but not God.

LOL , if really Jesus (p) is God ( may God forgive me for writing this ) , then at least Muslims will be able to explain that Jesus (p) , u told us --"My Father is greater than I." & we obeyed u .

So , don't punish us for worshipping God who is the greatest. .

It's simply impossible that Jesus (p) will be angry at Muslims for worshipping one God only......apply ur logic ....hopefully u will understand :statisfie


But those who deny the existance of God , how can they expect mercy of God ?

You really seem to have no understanding of pascals wager do you?

You have no evidence that your god is right "which by the christians point of view is not your god" Jesus "the christian one" would say what you followed the words of a false prohpet? Boot to hell....

Your wager is flawed thats all there is to it.

[Muezzin]

Muezzin:
As a agnostic, I admire the world and it's many wonders. I attribute the root of all of this to some craeting force. And i treat it with a certain respect.

Just dont need to pray to do that.

That's fair enough. Though I don't necessarily agree with your point of view, I understand and accept it.

[snakelegs]

its likly because of my japanese pc. Sometimes it uses differnet fonts.

interesting. they show up on one computer (tho they look funny) but on the other one, they are just little squares. hmmmmfff.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace;

You really seem to have no understanding of pascals wager do you?.

I don't think , God will ask me on the last day about pascals wager :p

so , don't want to know about details ....but u r welcome to write in short if u think it's necessary for my salvation :statisfie


[QUOTE]
You have no evidence that your god is right ....QUOTE]


:giggling: :giggling:

& u have evidence that i m wrong ? Anyway , God is only one . Both Muslims & Christians believe in that ......but Christians say it in a complicated way.


My intelliegence ( not even sure if spell is correct :-[ ) level is not very high....so , it's impossible for me to understand any mystery.


I m sure , God the most kind , ever merciful won't punish me for not understanding any mystery. As i believe in one God only , God Willing , last day won't be much scary :)


Pl. everybody , say Ameen to that :statisfie

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Thats frankly Impossible. How can a atheist or a Agnostic confuse anyone about God.
They dont beleive in it, so they dont know the truth like a believer does. ].

woooow , do u tell people that believers know the Truth ? Normally Athiests claim that they are right .

Let the Atheists quote facts and logic all day long.
It dosnt change the Truth.

yap :thumbs_up

God is one , that's the Truth ....nobody can change it :)

[barney]

Well nope.
I just understand that the faithful "know" that their "Truth" is the only possible one, no matter how many facts are put to them. :)

Some people call it faith blindness.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Well nope.
I just understand that the faithful "know" that their "Truth" is the only possible one, no matter how many facts are put to them. :)

Some people call it faith blindness.

well thats not really true with me...

you see i already have a mountains weight full of proof for islam and my religion. if you can provide equally sound and logical proof before me against islam then i will very likely accept that but for a surety you cannot :p

[Pygoscelis]

It's simply impossible that Jesus (p) will be angry at Muslims for worshipping one God only......apply ur logic ....hopefully u will understand :statisfie


But those who deny the existance of God , how can they expect mercy of God ?

A theme that is repeated over and over and over in the Bible is that of God getting angry when people worship false Gods. There are entire chapters of the bible dedicated to this. See Judges for example.

Yet the bible only very rarely speaks of those with no Gods.

Seems to me that the Christian God (should such a monster exist) may be more upset with you as a muslim than me as an atheist.

[MustafaMc]

Muezzin:
As a agnostic, I admire the world and it's many wonders. I attribute the root of all of this to some craeting force. And i treat it with a certain respect.

Just dont need to pray to do that.

Psygo: Do you think that they once took a interest? Set the ball rolling then moved on?

All least you acknowledge "some creating force", but I doubt that you "treat it with a certain respect". To do so one would acknowledge His existence, he would seek the Truth about His existence and worship and adore Him. To accept the many blessings that we have in this life, to take them for granted and to not glorify the One who gave them to us is most unjust indeed.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

All least you acknowledge "some creating force", but I doubt that you "treat it with a certain respect". To do so one would acknowledge His existence, he would seek the Truth about His existence and worship and adore Him. To accept the many blessings that we have in this life, to take them for granted and to not glorify the One who gave them to us is most unjust indeed.

Yup, also someone might recognise that someone exists, yet that someone won't be pleased with them until they recognise and thank them for their favours. :) Anyway this hadith comes to mind:

Allaah, the Most Compassionate says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

...Seems to me that the Christian God (should such a monster exist) may be more upset with you as a muslim than me as an atheist.

as there is no Christian God but God & i worship Him alone only , God Willing , there will be no fear at all on the Last Day. But , we have to wait till that day.....see u there , bye.

[Joe98]

I'll try and re-word what he wrote:

In many places the bible is upset that people worship false gods.

But there is nowhere in the bible where the problem is that people worship no gods.

[- Qatada -]

False gods also consist of ideologies which oppose the laws of God :) Therefore one can also worship the government or the ideology of their state.


And Allaah knows best.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam / peace ;

I'll try and re-word what he wrote:

In many places the bible is upset that people worship false gods.

But there is nowhere in the bible where the problem is that people worship no gods.

I read Bible long ago.....i remember this kind of command ....Worship me ....so , if anybody denies God .....surely s/he is disobeying God. And what's the punishment of disobeying God ?


I just browsed & here is Bible punishment quiz . U may search for the ans here .

Bible Punishment Quiz

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0...unishment.html

[MustafaMc]

A theme that is repeated over and over and over in the Bible is that of God getting angry when people worship false Gods. There are entire chapters of the bible dedicated to this. See Judges for example.

Yes, idolatory and ascribing partners with Allah is a most serious sin. To deny the favors and blessings of Allah is also a most serious sin.

Yet the bible only very rarely speaks of those with no Gods.

Come to think of it, I think you are right. I will have to study on this point.

Seems to me that the Christian God (should such a monster exist) may be more upset with you as a muslim than me as an atheist.

Christians, Jews and Muslims claim that there is only One God. However, the Christian "concept" or perception of this One God is that He is manifest in three "persons". They claim that the One God became flesh in the form the human Jesus. There is only One God and had He willed He could have made us all one nation and of one faith, but this life is a test to separate the sheep from the goats so to speak. The world as it exists is according to His Divine Will to which we submit.

I believe that we err greatly when we attribute human emotions to Allah such as of Him being upset with humans. From my perspective as a Muslim, I would rather be a Christian on the Day of Judgement than to be an atheist or an agnostic. At least some Christians are sincere and have a worshipful attitude toward their Creator.

[Woodrow]

In some manner or another everybody is going to worship somebody or something. Even those who claim they do not worship anything. True it may not be worship in the terms of any standardized ritual, but it is still worship some things that I find people worship to at least some extent:

Freedom

Intelligence

Wealth

Self Worth


I just happen to believe that Allah(swt) has more substance and more validation to be worshiped.

[Phil12123]

I'll try and re-word what he wrote:

In many places the bible is upset that people worship false gods.

But there is nowhere in the bible where the problem is that people worship no gods.

The Bible may not talk about a group of people who worship no god, as opposed to the True God, and the emphasis is indeed on worship of the True God vs. worship of idols or false gods. But the Bible does say that you're a fool if you say there is no God (Ps. 14:1), so that would be a "problem," wouldn't it? Also, it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. So, if you deny the Lord exists, you can't even begin to have true knowledge, which would be a problem, too.

[Balthasar21]

Which school of thought when we are to discuss the validity of hadith? Lol. You know non Muslims discuss the validity of Hadith, do they follow a school of thought?



Interesting how you 'predict' my very moves, yet fail to answer questions. :)



Do you normally ignore questions you find hard to answer? Did you ever reply about to the question about the article's creation on the other thread?




I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. :) As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.



Great assumption, you think I read all of your posts? I did when you were new here, I put some effort, but after a while, I thought it best to leave you be, since you harldly replied to questions. Some people hear but hear not and see but see not. :)

So if you want to give me alink to a post where you were insulted plesae do, if not then don't complain.



The two are miles apart. I might not have a video camera with footage but the chances are nowhere near each other.

Regards,

You Did Say I Could Create A Post About Hadith's Yes ????

[barney]

All least you acknowledge "some creating force", but I doubt that you "treat it with a certain respect". To do so one would acknowledge His existence, he would seek the Truth about His existence and worship and adore Him. To accept the many blessings that we have in this life, to take them for granted and to not glorify the One who gave them to us is most unjust indeed.

Why would that force require some mass-cheering session? If it is aware of us still what does it need that for?
What is the gain that it gets for such continuous bigging up?

I can admire the forces work without spending my existance constantly seeking it's approval. In my opinion wrapping myself up in perceived expectations of something nobody can understand, is a waste of a life.

If I was to accept mohammeds explaination of what allah DID want, then I would pray 50 times a day. Why? because thats what Allah said he wanted. Mohammed said this would be too burdensome on the ummah. Well Moses said it would and Mohammed agreed. So back he went to haggle the frequency down, first to 30 then to 20 or something, and finally to 5.

Well If i was to accept that this was actually Gods word, then I would be praying fifty times like he first wanted, not some haggeled compromise.

[- Qatada -]

Why would that force require some mass-cheering session? If it is aware of us still what does it need that for?
What is the gain that it gets for such continuous bigging up?

I can admire the forces work without spending my existance constantly seeking it's approval. In my opinion wrapping myself up in perceived expectations of something nobody can understand, is a waste of a life.

Do you know what worship is? Worship consists of being obedient to Allaah, it's to do whatever Allaah loves and to turn away from what He doesn't love. So if someone is supporting his family, then that is an act of worship - since it is an act loved by Allaah.

If one is kind to the creation, then they need to be thankful to the Creator for the good which He has given them.

If I was to accept mohammeds explaination of what allah DID want, then I would pray 50 times a day. Why? because thats what Allah said he wanted. Mohammed said this would be too burdensome on the ummah. Well Moses said it would and Mohammed agreed. So back he went to haggle the frequency down, first to 30 then to 20 or something, and finally to 5.

Well If i was to accept that this was actually Gods word, then I would be praying fifty times like he first wanted, not some haggeled compromise.

If you read the end of the hadith, you'd realise that the reward of them 5 prayers is equal to the 50 which were prescribed earlier. It's a great sign of Allaah's Mercy to us, and it is Allaah Himself who decreed this.

So it's nothing about 'haggling' - it's about Allaah showing to us what He has prescribed, and the great reward and Mercy which He bestows upon us for so little.




Regards.

[Umar001]

You Did Say I Could Create A Post About Hadith's Yes ????

Did you read the post yuou quoted, it stated a condition:

I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.

Your thread was deleted by another mod who I didnt even know had deleted it because you spoke in a rude way. You see so we can discuss it in pm if you wish and then post the out come, last thing I'd want us being immature all over the board when discussing a serious matter.

I will leave this post until you read it and then delete it since it is going off topic.

Regards Eesa.

[Balthasar21]

Did you read the post yuou quoted, it stated a condition:

I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.

Your thread was deleted by another mod who I didnt even know had deleted it because you spoke in a rude way. You see so we can discuss it in pm if you wish and then post the out come, last thing I'd want us being immature all over the board when discussing a serious matter.

I will leave this post until you read it and then delete it since it is going off topic.

Regards Eesa.

Overstand something you were the one who said I could create a post on Hadith , And I was only asking you were you a man of your word . because I try to post it , now your say someone delete it LOLOLOLOLOL . I knew this was going to happen , Here what you said .


(#108 (permalink))


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthasar21
You speak of Hadith Yes Laughing here . Are you saying I Can Start A Post On Hadith's And you or any of the Moderators / Administrator Will Not Closed / Remove / Delete The Post YES or No ? ... Beware of what you ask for ok .

I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.



I'm only asking you if you have change your mind about me posting it , Because you gave me the ok . Yes ,

[Umar001]

Overstand something you were the one who said I could create a post on Hadith , And I was only asking you were you a man of your word . because I try to post it , now your say someone delete it LOLOLOLOLOL . I knew this was going to happen , Here what you said .


(#108 (permalink))


Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthasar21
You speak of Hadith Yes Laughing here . Are you saying I Can Start A Post On Hadith's And you or any of the Moderators / Administrator Will Not Closed / Remove / Delete The Post YES or No ? ... Beware of what you ask for ok .

I will ask the other mods not to delete a thread you make on such a topic, so go ahead please. As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.



I'm only asking you if you have change your mind about me posting it , Because you gave me the ok . Yes ,

And what did I say to you in the quote? Discuss it in a civilised manner. What was the reason, and who deleted your thread?

Thread deleted by Alpha Dude
Reason: You could have brought these issues forward WITHOUT the offending/insulting tone. Not suited for Comp Rel in any case...

Its clear, language such as:

Would you as a Muslim seriously eat one ? If so , Ypu are nasty and your prophet as well !!!

You Will Get Bad Breath And Your Teeth Turn A Little Yellow , But You Sure Wont Have Any Pissy Breath ?

So if you want to discuss this as a child then it wont happen. You quoted me, and I said:

As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.

Which part of that do you not understand, I don't ask you to agree, I don't ask you to accept what I say, I ask that you have curtosy.

I mean, if Muslims are doing wrong then that is sad, how can you laugh knowing that people are on a wrong path? Is that a funny thing? To me its an upsetting and serious matter.

Edit: To justify yourself you then assume people's intention, it has reached me that you wrote to the closer of the thread:

The reson why you remove the post is because you didn't like it , Let be real I haven't disrespect anyone I just ask him was he a man of his word .

So you are now assuming that he removed it because he didnt like it, I think he was offended, I mean language like pissy is hardly civilised.

[Balthasar21]

And what did I say to you in the quote? Discuss it in a civilised manner. What was the reason, and who deleted your thread?

Thread deleted by Alpha Dude
Reason: You could have brought these issues forward WITHOUT the offending/insulting tone. Not suited for Comp Rel in any case...

Its clear, language such as:

Would you as a Muslim seriously eat one ? If so , Ypu are nasty and your prophet as well !!!

You Will Get Bad Breath And Your Teeth Turn A Little Yellow , But You Sure Wont Have Any Pissy Breath ?

So if you want to discuss this as a child then it wont happen. You quoted me, and I said:

As long as you can discuss in a constructive civilised manner, we will be alright sir.

Which part of that do you not understand, I don't ask you to agree, I don't ask you to accept what I say, I ask that you have curtosy.

I mean, if Muslims are doing wrong then that is sad, how can you laugh knowing that people are on a wrong path? Is that a funny thing? To me its an upsetting and serious matter.

Edit: To justify yourself you then assume people's intention, it has reached me that you wrote to the closer of the thread:

The reson why you remove the post is because you didn't like it , Let be real I haven't disrespect anyone I just ask him was he a man of his word .

So you are now assuming that he removed it because he didnt like it, I think he was offended, I mean language like pissy is hardly civilised.

Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written , Because you nor him would be able to explain how your Hadith's writer could write such things . I notice you and him left out what the Hadith's were saying Why is that .

Remember your the one who said when could discuss The Validity Of hadith Yes . Now you and the other mod trying to flip the script . Now that you and the other mod have read what type of things your so-called Hadith's writer , are saying You see why I say I don't accept any Hadith's unless they're back up by the qur'aan . Because NO WAY WOULD ALLAH WOULD HAVE ANY MUSLIMS ACCEPTING ANY HADITH'S LIKE THE ONE YOU AND THE OTHER MOD READ. Remember when you point your finger at someone the other one always point back at you .

[Pygoscelis]

From my perspective as a Muslim, I would rather be a Christian on the Day of Judgement than to be an atheist or an agnostic. At least some Christians are sincere and have a worshipful attitude toward their Creator.

Fair enough, but I'd like to point out that atheists too are sincere (just not worshipful).

True it may not be worship in the terms of any standardized ritual, but it is still worship some things that I find people worship to at least some extent:

Freedom

Intelligence

Wealth

Self Worth


I just happen to believe that Allah(swt) has more substance and more validation to be worshiped.

I'm not sure if worship is the right term for it, but I certain value many of those things (wealth being the least, self worth being the most). I certainly place self worth above any God, real or imaginary. I would have difficulty putting a God even if one existed above my own self worth. I can admit that, and I find it a virtue, not a fault. There are some things I may put above my own self worth, ie I may sacrifice my life to save others, but God isnt one of them (even if such a being existed).

The Bible may not talk about a group of people who worship no god, as opposed to the True God, and the emphasis is indeed on worship of the True God vs. worship of idols or false gods. But the Bible does say that you're a fool if you say there is no God (Ps. 14:1), so that would be a "problem," wouldn't it? Also, it says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. So, if you deny the Lord exists, you can't even begin to have true knowledge, which would be a problem, too.

So it calls atheists stupid. That's a bit uncouth, but it isn't quite the same as destroying their homes and killing them outright as God is reported to have done to those who worshiped false Gods. So God finds us atheists dumb, but finds those worshiping false gods horrible and in need of destruction. I think atheists are better off if this monster god exists.

[barney]

"But the Bible does say that you're a fool if you say there is no God "

Never a bad time for Mr T !

[ranma1/2]

Salaam / peace ;




I read Bible long ago.....i remember this kind of command ....Worship me ....so , if anybody denies God .....surely s/he is disobeying God. And what's the punishment of disobeying God ?


I just browsed & here is Bible punishment quiz . U may search for the ans here .

Bible Punishment Quiz

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0...unishment.html

got to love landoverbaptist, a pretty funny spoof/satire site. It is almost Poe worthy.

[barney]

Bibalic punishment? You cant go further wrong than:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

The Westbro Baptist church! Where religion meets inbreeding evry day of the week!

[evangel]

The Westbro Baptist church! Where religion meets inbreeding evry day of the week!

I got to tell ya barney, this guy (Rev. Phelps) gives me the willies. I don't think I have ever seen someone spit so much venom, he was born one inquisition too late. He came to Colorado Springs and ours was one of the churches he protested, I count that as being in good company. It pains me to think that people look at him and think all Christians are like that.
The thing is that even for him I need to strive to forgive, this is not the easiest walk I've ever been on.

[barney]

Nahh mate, noone thinks all christians are like that.

I find it interesting what theyre doing , because its like christian Whabbism, It's like a American Sein Fein.

Theres 72 of them, theyre all inbred to blazes and theyre clearly mentally Ill.

I look at Westboro and I look at Hamas, I see the same thing. They are the same thing.
Fortunatly, they dont run a country.

Relax about being a christian already, Christians are loopy but sweet. :)

(in My Opinion)

[جوري]

What is ******sm? and no before you do the google search and wow me with a cut and paste, I really must ask, what you know a "******" to be?

[barney]

What is ******sm? and no before you do the google search and wow me with a cut and paste, I really must ask, what you know a "******" to be?

Ahh, cmon! You said you diddnt care...

Nope...Im not going to tell you now!:D

*Stamps feet*

[جوري]

I expected as much-- actually even less.. I'll post this by Dr. Idris... for those members who don't wish to give into slow vegetation from deficient posts and the vomit of their tele...
the asterisked letters denote W a h a b b i

Response to The Washington Post

This is a letter that Dr. Idris sent to The Washington Post in response to the Article "Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism," where Dr. Idris' name was mentioned.. The letter was delivered to the Post by hand and via e-mail. The Washington Post did not publish his response.

Susan Schmidt’s report, (Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism), Thursday, October 4, 2003, is an example of writings about Islam that Muslims find very disturbing. They wonder what good does it serve the national interest of the United States to distort the facts about Muslim individuals, organizations, beliefs and positions, to see organizational links where none in fact exist, and to present all their honest activities as a threat to America?

The writer calls me an Imam, which I am not; I am a professor of philosophy. She groups me with what she calls salafi and ****** groups (her definition of which is ridiculous) while I consider myself to be an independent scholar who is not a member of any group or party or a blind follower of any leader; my only ultimate leader is Prophet Muhammad. I am certainly not a ******, and do not know of any scholar even in Saudi Arabia who calls himself a ******. There is no sect in Islam called ******sm. I did read some of Ibn Abdel Wahab’s works and I did write about him, but I never invited people to follow him, or any particular scholar or leader. I have great respect for him as one of our outstanding scholars, and the leader of a major revivalist movement. But still we do not accept every thing he says.

One might wonder why have the teachings of this man suddenly, and after more than two hundred years, become a threat to America? The answer is that what is now perceived by some to be a danger is not what is called ******sm. The epithet ‘******’ is now being exploited by many in America to describe any Muslim who takes his religion seriously. If you are a serious adherent to Islam, you are ******; if you are ****** you must be a terrorist; and if you are a terrorist you are a legitimate target. The message to practicing Muslims seems to be that if you are not like us you will not be tolerated by us. This is in essence is what the Senator, whom the reporter quotes, is saying. ******sm is a danger, we are told because it is “antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things.” Must everyone in the world conceive these things the way the Senator and his likes conceive them? If so then the problem is not confined to what is called ******sm. It is bound to include other Muslims, as well as all people who belong to other cultures; it is in fact bound to include many in the West since there is no consensus among them on the way these things are to be conceived. If your tolerance applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. It is because of this that Jews and Christians found their safest haven in the Muslim world long before the West started to talk about human rights and freedom of religion. “Jews familiar with history might note that from Spain to Baghdad, it was the Islamic world that offered the Jews of the Middle Ages a fair degree of toleration -- not the Christian West’, so tells us Richard Cohen in an article in the Post.; non-Muslims continue to live peacefully among Muslims. Islamic teachings, corroborated by our historical experience, teach us that the best atmosphere for the spread of Islam is the peaceful atmosphere. It is because of this that people like myself have been staunch advocates of peaceful coexistence and peaceful ways of inviting others to Islam long before September/11. And that is why we have been condemning acts of violence as ways of furthering the cause of Islam; we believe that they do just the opposite. But this has been of no avail to us; if you are an advocate of Islam, even by merely distributing copies of the Qur’an, you are bound to be viewed with suspicion. The same does not apply to organizations that put a copy of the Bible in every room of almost any hotel, not only in America, but in many other parts of the world.

We are determined however to stay this course. We know that being firm in our adherence to Islam has been one of the main reasons for its fast spreading.

Why is Islam expanding so spectacularly? … … … To any Christian familiar with the Bible, the answer is obvious: because God keeps His promises and blesses those who obey His Laws and fear Him, and punishes those who do not. … … Compare the amounts of abortion adultery, fornication and sodomy among Muslims and among Christians. Then compare the amounts of prayer. [Ecumenical Jihad, 1994, p.38]

These are the words of a Catholic professor of philosophy, Peter Kreeft. Could he perhaps be a Catholic ******?

Dr. Jaafar Idris

Washington Post article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...Fundamentalism

لعربي: ـ المقالات مقالات جريدة الميثاق . معالم لنهضتنا . الكتب والبحوث . الندوات والمحاضرات العامة . اللقاءات الصحفية . تعريف بالشيخ

[Malaikah]

:sl:

allow me to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.

[جوري]

:sl:

allow to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.

Do you mean to tell me you know more than Barnacle? Barnacle can debate the best of them with sheer brilliance, He has the Quran in his home and reads the examiner and the sun daily where do you get off contradicting him? :confused:

[Pygoscelis]

Bibalic punishment? You cant go further wrong than:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

The Westbro Baptist church! Where religion meets inbreeding evry day of the week!

I love the parody site godhatesfigs.com

God *DOES* hate figs you know. Its in the bible. :D

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:

allow me to summarise- there is no such thing as w a h a b i ! No group on earth, no person, calls them self a w a h a b i. There is no sect called w a h a b ism.

End of story.

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

hi Pygoscelis. allow me to answer your question. as far as i know this is what ******sm is.
it is named after a shaikh (a muslim religious scholar) called Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhaab who lived quite a while ago (im talking centuries here). I don't know how much you know about islam, but us muslims believe that there is no God, except allah. that means, that when we seek refuge, we seek refgue with Allah. when we ask for something (such as rain, etc) we ask allah.
At his (the shyaikhs time) people began to revert to their old polytheistic ways, (something in which prophet muhmmaed -peace be upon him was sent to correct at the time he was sent, approx 1400 yrs ago) such as asking other than allah, etc and began to innovate things in the religion, which has no basis. as a result, basically the shiaykh began to re educate people (as in muslims) about their beflefs. and as far as i know this is where the name come from. hope that answers your question.

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.

[snakelegs]

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think barney's point stands, even if this wa habi thing doesn't exist. There clearly ARE Fred Phelps equivalents in Islam. Don't think its important what we call them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
oops do the first part and where the *'s are, type w a h a b i

[Umar001]

Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written , Because you nor him would be able to explain how your Hadith's writer could write such things . I notice you and him left out what the Hadith's were saying Why is that .

If you actually searched you'd find most of the hadith have been already discused on the forum. Such as the one brought up by barney I think it was in another thread, it was answered straight away.

Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written

Your saying you never assum anything, but then you make a statement as to why he deleted it. He said clearly why he deleted it. Maybe you should read more.

Remember your the one who said when could discuss The Validity Of hadith Yes . Now you and the other mod trying to flip the script . Now that you and the other mod have read what type of things your so-called Hadith's writer , are saying You see why I say I don't accept any Hadith's unless they're back up by the qur'aan . Because NO WAY WOULD ALLAH WOULD HAVE ANY MUSLIMS ACCEPTING ANY HADITH'S LIKE THE ONE YOU AND THE OTHER MOD READ. Remember when you point your finger at someone the other one always point back at you .

Me and you shall still discuss it, don't you worry, you've put your post and I will reply and then you can reply and then we'll go like that until we come to an agreement. You'll have a whole thraed to teach me! :) But you have to keep your typing clean, no 'pissy' and such words. If you want to discuss it we will do it nicely.

[Malaikah]

You've piqued my curiousity. I know little about this "wa habism" thing. Was it something cooked up by US intelligence? Was it a sect that is no more?

I think they might us the word to refer to 'salafis' who are nothing more than sunni (main stream) Muslims, they might differ on a few minor points, but they are not any more 'extreme' or 'radical' or 'fundamental' than any other sunni Muslims.

It never was a sect either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******
oops do the first part and where the *'s are, type w a h a b i

This is not accurate... at all.

Such as the following, this is not a '******' thing, these points are all a part of 'main stream' Islam!

There are many practices that they believe are contrary to Islam, such as:

* Listening to certain types of music
* Drawings of human beings or other living things which contain a soul
* Praying while visiting tombs (praying to Prophet Mohammed's tomb is also considered polytheism)
* Blindly following any madhhabs (schools of thought) of Islamic jurisprudence in their legal expertise, "except for one who is under necessity and can not reach the Sunnah.[7]
* Using non-literal explanations of God's attributes exclusively in preference to literal explanations.
* Celebrating the "mawalid" (birthday of Prophet Muhammad)
* Innovations (bid'ah) in matters of religion (e.g. new supplementary methods of worship or laws not sanctioned by God or his prophet.)

The scholars mentioned are not '******' scholars, they are sunni scholars, and their theology was no different to that of main stream Muslim shcolars.

Very inaccurate.

[evangel]

I love the parody site godhatesfigs.com

God *DOES* hate figs you know. Its in the bible. :D

I don't think He hates figs, He just cursed the tree that bore no fruit.

[barney]

Just to clear up the deleted thing. Ive been PM'd by a mod to say that my post on Wabbitism was deleted as it was a response to another post which was deleted for using insulting language. :)

I'm getting the feeling that it's widely beleived amongst muslims that wabbitism is a myth or something that died out centuries ago.

No christian will deny Fundamentalist christianity.
No Jew will deny the existance of the Black Hats.

A more constructive arguement can be formed around to what extent does wabbitism have support in modern islam.

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Barney
The thing is, a lot of persons who claim to be salafi are often labeled as ******s. Although I would love to answer you further I will not explain that any more in detail, as that will just sparkle a discussion about sects which is not allowed here. So Instead I will just message you. Anybody else who wants to know more, can ask me to trough pm.

[Muezzin]

Just to clear up the deleted thing. Ive been PM'd by a mod to say that my post on Wabbitism was deleted as it was a response to another post which was deleted for using insulting language. :)

That was a simple mistake on my part, mate. Don't go reading meanings into it that aren't there to begin with. It makes you sound like a religious person. :p

[barney]

That was a simple mistake on my part, mate. Don't go reading meanings into it that aren't there to begin with. It makes you sound like a religious person. :p

LOL! Gotta love ya Muezzy!:D

peace.

[Balthasar21]

If you actually searched you'd find most of the hadith have been already discused on the forum. Such as the one brought up by barney I think it was in another thread, it was answered straight away.

Don't even try it first I never assum any thing he only remove the post because of What your Hadith's writers written

Your saying you never assum anything, but then you make a statement as to why he deleted it. He said clearly why he deleted it. Maybe you should read more.




Me and you shall still discuss it, don't you worry, you've put your post and I will reply and then you can reply and then we'll go like that until we come to an agreement. You'll have a whole thraed to teach me! :) But you have to keep your typing clean, no 'pissy' and such words. If you want to discuss it we will do it nicely.

Balthasar21 < Says > First let me say this Your not a man of your Word Ok , But it cool .

Al Habeshi < Says > If you actually searched you'd find most of the hadith have been already discused on the forum. Such as the one brought up by barney I think it was in another thread, it was answered straight away.

Balthasar21 < Says > First I'm not '' Barney '' And I doubt the hadith's I wrote have ever been posted ,

Al Habeshi < Says > Your saying you never assum anything, but then you make a statement as to why he deleted it. He said clearly why he deleted it. Maybe you should read more.

Balthasar 21 < Says > As I said I never assum anything You and few mods and I know the real reason my post was deleted / remove And it was because No Way could you or Any One Here Explain Why Hadiths like those could be the word of men who follow Muhammad . I have told you Beware of what you ask for . I knew when you read those Hadith's it blow your mind , Keyword here Hadith's and not what I said at the bottom of the post , What I said at the bottom about pisss is what the 'Hadith's were saying , And the mod took what I was saying and used it against me to deleted / Remove the post . All Mods Had To Do Was edited out what I said at the bottom . But no he deleted / remove it so no one would know those type of Hadith's Exist . I even told you before I written those Hadith's that some of them make Muhammad look bad didn't I . If you really want to discuss Hadith's , Being you're mod and you have the power to post why don't you post those Hadith's and Edited -Out what I said at the bottom and post and Answer it , Because I'm sure the people on this forum would like to see how you explain what those Hadith's Writer were thinking at the time they were writeing those things .

Al Habeshi < Says > Me and you shall still discuss it, don't you worry, you've put your post and I will reply and then you can reply and then we'll go like that until we come to an agreement. You'll have a whole thraed to teach me! But you have to keep your typing clean, no 'pissy' and such words. If you want to discuss it we will do it nicely.


Balthasar 21 < Says > Read the above . No Way Could Me Or Anyone For That Matter Would Agree To Those Hadith's Unless Something Wrong With Them , And Thats For Real . As far as you and I Agreeing that can never happen because your ( Belief's / Faith Etc ) Wont Allow You To See Things As They Really Are , Meaning They're Nothing But ( Belief's / Faith Etc ) No More No Less . You keep telling me about my mouth / writeing , Why is purestambrosia Allow to say anything out of her nasty mouth and post it and it never edited out / Delete / remove , And she does these to everyone who doesn't agree with her But Yet you'll tell me about my mouth / writeing . One can tell she has no respect for herself or Islam , She say in one of her post that this was her father forum . You would think she would have more respect for father because this is his site and she REPRESENT Islam The Woman Of Islam Away . But Hey ....

[Pygoscelis]

I don't think He hates figs, He just cursed the tree that bore no fruit.

... when it was out of season (the bible actually says this).

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Allaah praises Figs in the Qur'an, because if He swears by something - it is showing it's great status in His sight.


Allaah says in the Qur'an:

By the Fig and the Olive,

[Qur'an At-Teen (the Fig) 95:1]

And that mean's there must be some good in the Fig, so here's some good links in regard to the benefits of Figs: :)

http://www.fruitarian.com/ao/FruitOnly.htm#FIGS
http://ezinearticles.com/?Nutritiona...Figs&id=120043
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...ll/ai_93532772



Peace.

[barney]

Olive oil rocks too. Good for the cholesterol.

(unless your frying a battered mars bar with it.)

[Pygoscelis]

I think we have found our most divisive issue between Christians and Muslims!

The Christian God curses figs. The Muslim God is a fig supporter. They clearly can not co-exist peacefully! Woe is me!

[- Qatada -]

I think we have found our most divisive issue between Christians and Muslims!

The Christian God curses figs. The Muslim God is a fig supporter. They clearly can not co-exist peacefully! Woe is me!

I think we got bigger things to debate about than figs. :)



Regards.

[barney]

Meh, I dont think so. The original wording of "Fig" could be taken as "a form of date", there are some dates that are clearly hated, such as Monday Mornings, and some that are excellent, such as saturday night.

Its all Fig-urative.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

.....The Christian God curses figs. The Muslim God is a fig supporter. They clearly can not co-exist peacefully! Woe is me!

LOL , God is only One ....there are no different Gods like Muslim God or Chrisitian God.....why it's so hard to understand this simple matter ? It's not a mystery at all.

[Pygoscelis]

Salaam/ peace ;




LOL , God is only One ....there are no different Gods like Muslim God or Chrisitian God.....why it's so hard to understand this simple matter ? It's not a mystery at all.

Because it isn't true.

[جوري]

I think we got bigger things to debate about than figs. :)



Regards.

That is actually what happens when you have anthropomorphism-- a great deal of confusion and massive disrespect unbefitting the magistrate of G-D-- I have read some pretty bizarre things in the bible, encompassing G-D ****ing the world for not knowing if the tree up ahead bears fruit, in the supposed world he created, to being completely misogynistic, to wrestling with Jacob and losing, to feeling remorse over what he has done to bani Israel...
I think if there was no Islam I'd probably end up as a theist too, but would have no relationship with G-D whatsoever, given this enfeebling human traits he possesses... I have no interest in worshipping someone who is no better than me, not knowing what fruit lies up ahead or losing a fight with a creature he created. The mind can't conceive what G-D is, adding petty human traits to him, doesn't make him more approachable, makes it all seem mythological.
The truth is very clear from error, for those who choose to seek it!
:w:

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Because it isn't true.

And the Truth is ....... ?????


Verse of the Day / night :)




Say: Surely I have manifest proof from my Lord and you call it a lie;

I have not with me that which you would hasten; the judgment is only God's; He relates the truth and He is the best of deciders.

[6.57]

[Pygoscelis]

Salaam/ peace ;





And the Truth is ....... ?????

I have no burning desire to invent a "Truth".

You believe a certain thing and that is fine. I just happen to think you are wrong. You stated your belief as if it was fact, so I did too.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Because it isn't true.

hi. yes it is true. how can we function with more than one brain??

[skhalid]

translations of the Quran is a big problem...and causes many disagreements between scholars and imams etc.......

[Balthasar21]

translations of the Quran is a big problem...and causes many disagreements between scholars and imams etc.......

Very good point , It's like everyone has a disffrent story to tell .