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Fishman
08-19-2006, 06:58 PM
:sl:
According to the Old Testament, a prophet can't change Divine Law from what came previously, right?

And according to the New Testament, Jesus (pbuh) changed divine Law, didn't he?

So according to the Old Testament, Jesus isn't even a prophet, let alone the Son of God!? Even though the New Testament strongly implies that he is?
The only explanation that I can think of is that the texts have been changed, which is the explanation that the Final Testament (the Quran) gives!

Is there another explanation, or have I discovered the contradiction of contradictions?

And don't say 'Muhammad changed the Law', because according to Muslims, the Law he brought was the same as that of the previous Prophets, but not the same as that of the modern Jews.
:w:
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Jayda
08-19-2006, 07:05 PM
Could you please show me where it says that in the Old Testament? I have never heard that before... I think that the message of the Prophets is consistent is because it comes from God, not because he made a law about it...

I do not think we consider Jesus a Prophet... because Prophets bring the word of God and Jesus is the Word... which the bible tells us is God... so that is why we believe that...

But that is my opinion I am just a lay catholic so I'm not like special or knowledgeable about this...

I really like your usepage btw! lol you have some of my favorite websites/books on your good reading list and some of the websites that I don't trust/ am offended by in your bad reading list so... you have great taste!
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Fishman
08-19-2006, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
Could you please show me where it says that in the Old Testament? I have never heard that before... I think that the message of the Prophets is consistent is because it comes from God, not because he made a law about it...
:sl:
I don't know. Lavikor, a Jew, told me that he doesn't consider Jesus (pbuh) a prophet for the reason I gave. If it's not in the Old Testament then it's in the Thalmud or the Hebrew Bible or something.

Islam does consider Jesus (pbuh) a Prophet, btw, it just doesn't say that he changed the Law.

I really like your usepage btw! lol you have some of my favorite websites/books on your good reading list and some of the websites that I don't trust/ am offended by in your bad reading list so... you have great taste
Thanks! Reps for you! I'm not sure if you would like MENJ's site though, it's like an intelligent version of Answering Christianity with no insults.
:w:
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Jayda
08-19-2006, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I don't know. Lavikor, a Jew, told me that he doesn't consider Jesus (pbuh) a prophet for the reason I gave. If it's not in the Old Testament then it's in the Thalmud or the Hebrew Bible or something.
I should ask the Rabbi when I go to dinner tonight... I was invited to a Jewish Service today and dinner with the Rabbi (I'm terrified) tonight so maybe if I can build up the courage to say something I will ask... I didn't mean to say you were wrong or anything just that I hadn't heard that before...


format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
Thanks! Reps for you!
:w:
Gracias! What is Reps? ...lol
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Fishman
08-19-2006, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
Gracias! What is Reps? ...lol
:sl:
Reputation points that you can give when you are a full member.
:w:
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ManchesterFolk
08-19-2006, 08:37 PM
So according to the Old Testament, Jesus isn't even a prophet, let alone the Son of God!?
That is why Jews believe him, and Mohammad are false.

The only explanation that I can think of is that the texts have been changed, which is the explanation that the Final Testament (the Quran) gives!
Or the texts might not have and the Jews could be right! Or who knows? Maybe it is all garbage and the Hindu's are right! Pr maybe Budha was right!


You can believe in one God. And not believe in religion.
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lavikor201
08-19-2006, 08:41 PM
Any questions about where you can find any of the proof I have stated can be Private Messaged to me. I will provide the proof of anything on here. All of thid info can be found out with a Hebrew Dictionary and a Bible pretty much. :-)
I have no problem with anyone who claims Jesus is there Messiah. it is there right and they may think that. But to claim he is my religions Messiah is just untrue.
Missionaries claim that Jesus fuffiled a prophecy that the Messiah would be born of a virgin.
They attempt to prove this from a verse, which even many contemporary Christian editions of the bible translate to read (Isaiah 7:14) "Therefore the L-rd himself shall give you a sign: Behold a young women shall concieve and beat a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"
The idea of gods and demigods being born from virgins occurs in many places in pagan mythology.
When Matthew (1:23) wuotes this passage and translated it into the Greek of the New Testement, his anxiety to prove a point led him to actually mistranslate this passage.
He translate the Hebrew world ALMA (go look it up) which means "young women" as "Virgin"... Then we have the instant prediction of the virgin birth of the Messiah.

But the word for virgin in Hebrew is BESULAH (go look it up) and ALMA is never translated to mean "Virgin"
More honest recent Christian Bible translations such as the Revised Standard Edition, The Jerusalem Bible, and the New English Bible have corrected this original error. Furthermore, there is absolutley no evidence that this speaks of the Messiah at all. It was directed at King Ahaz and according to most Biblical commentators, speaks of the birth of King Hezekia rather than the Messiah.
It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.
Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
  • 1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
  • 2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
  • 3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
  • 4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
  • At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:
  • 5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
  • 6) Jews and Non-Jews
  • 7) Bringing the Messiah
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1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
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2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!
B. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation. (Look it up in any Hebrew Dictionary)
A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman(llok it up), but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." It was very common in tales of Pagan gods for them to be born of a virgin mother.
B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet." (Look it up in a hebrew dictionary)
C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. G-d speaking to the entire nation. If G-d is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that G-d sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "G-d did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY
The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.
A. G-D AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks G-d into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
B. MAN AS G-D?
Roman Catholics believe that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that G-d is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that G-d assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)
C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and G-d. As the Bible says: "G-d is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between G-d and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)
D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that G-d created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) JEWS AND Non-Jews
Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked G-d to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH
Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of G-d's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of G-d. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age. (the Jewish view on it... we all have our own views, and again I hope I offend no one when explaining mine)
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"
How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.
The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. G-d is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice."
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glo
08-19-2006, 08:48 PM
Hi Lavikor

Forgive me, your post was so long that I have only scanned it briefly.

I see no reference to Fishman's original statment, which didn't make much sense to me. "According to the Old Testament, a prophet can't change Divine Law from what came previously, right?"
Can you she any light on this?
Perhaps you mentioned it in your post and I missed it ...

How are you, anyway? :)

Peace.
Reply

glo
08-19-2006, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman

So according to the Old Testament, Jesus isn't even a prophet, let alone the Son of God!? Even though the New Testament strongly implies that he is?
The only explanation that I can think of is that the texts have been changed, which is the explanation that the Final Testament (the Quran) gives!

Is there another explanation, or have I discovered the contradiction of contradictions?

And don't say 'Muhammad changed the Law', because according to Muslims, the Law he brought was the same as that of the previous Prophets, but not the same as that of the modern Jews.
:w:
How would it affect you as a Muslim, if Jesus was not a prophet, as the Qu'ran states?

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say or argue, Fishman.

Clearly Islam, Judaism and Christianity have their differences - based on the different holy books they use, or different interpretations of the same.
What exactly is the point you are making? :?

Peace.
Reply

QuranStudy
08-19-2006, 08:55 PM
Hey lavikor201, can you refer me to Jewish books/sites where I can learn Judaism in a nutshell? Thanks.
Reply

QuranStudy
08-19-2006, 08:57 PM
Clearly Islam, Judaism and Christianity have their differences - based on the different holy books they use, or different interpretations of the same.
That's true. But wouldnt what fishman posted be an issue considering the Torah is part of the Bible?
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Woodrow
08-19-2006, 09:02 PM
How would it affect you as a Muslim, if Jesus was not a prophet, as the Qu'ran states?
It would affect myself in exactly the same way as if someone was to say:

"How would it affect you as a Muslim, if Moses(pbuh) was not a prophet, as the Qu'ran states?"

I could have no concept of it being a true statement, and would believe the person saying such was either maliciously making a misstatement or is very mistaken.
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glo
08-19-2006, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
That's true. But wouldnt what fishman posted be an issue considering the Torah is part of the Bible?
From what I understand the Torah contains part of the Old Testament. (Lavikor toldus in another thread, I hope I remembered it right)

Clearly Jews and Christians interpret those parts of the Old Testament/Torah differently to come to the conclusion that Jesus is/ is not the prophesied Messiah.

That's why I added "... based on the different holy books they use, or different interpretations of the same."

Perhaps what Fishman is trying to say is that whilst Jews believe that Jesus was nobody special, not even a prophet; and Christians believe that he was more than anybody, namely the Son of God; Muslims get it right by believing Jesus was a prophet, no more, no less.
But I am only guessing. Best let Fishman explain what he meant. :)

Peace.
Reply

lavikor201
08-19-2006, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi Lavikor

Forgive me, your post was so long that I have only scanned it briefly.

I see no reference to Fishman's original statment, which didn't make much sense to me. "According to the Old Testament, a prophet can't change Divine Law from what came previously, right?"
Can you she any light on this?
Perhaps you mentioned it in your post and I missed it ...

How are you, anyway? :)

Peace.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you.
(Deuteronomy 4:2)



לֹא תֹסִפוּ, עַל-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, וְלֹא תִגְרְעוּ,מִמֶּנּוּ--לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-מִצְו-ֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי, מְצַוֶּהאֶתְכֶם.



Thank you for asking how I am doing.

:) I am doing great.
Reply

glo
08-19-2006, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the L-RD your G-d which I command you.
(Deuteronomy 4:2)



לֹא תֹסִפוּ, עַל-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם, וְלֹא תִגְרְעוּ,מִמֶּנּוּ--לִשְׁמֹר, אֶת-מִצְו-ֹת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי, מְצַוֶּהאֶתְכֶם.



Thank you for asking how I am doing.

:) I am doing great.
Ah! Thank you, Lavikor. Now I understand.
There was no need to use such a large font, though ... my eye sight is still okay! ;D

Peace.
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2006, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
From what I understand the Torah contains part of the Old Testament. (Lavikor toldus in another thread, I hope I remembered it right)

Clearly Jews and Christians interpret those parts of the Old Testament/Torah differently to come to the conclusion that Jesus is/ is not the prophesied Messiah.

That's why I added "... based on the different holy books they use, or different interpretations of the same."

Perhaps what Fishman is trying to say is that whilst Jews believe that Jesus was nobody special, not even a prophet; and Christians believe that he was more than anybody, namely the Son of God; Muslims get it right by believing Jesus was a prophet, no more, no less.
But I am only guessing. Best let Fishman explain what he meant. :)

Peace.
I have read both the Tauret (Torah) and the Bible several times. The Tauret is the Pentatuch the first five books of the bible.

However, when the Torah is translated into English they are many places where to First five Books of the Bible differ from the Torah. In my mind it seems they should be identical. The English translations of the Pentatuch are or should be translations of the Torah. Although, I do not believe the Torah is the same as it was originaly written, I do not believe it underwent any changes from what the early Christians accepted as the Pentatuch.

I do agree , it is best that Fishman state what he meant . These are just my opinions and I do not know what his views are.
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lavikor201
08-19-2006, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Ah! Thank you, Lavikor. Now I understand.
There was no need to use such a large font, though ... my eye sight is still okay! ;D

Peace.
LOL, I am sorry. The Hebrew was tiny and I made botht eh English and hebrew under the same font.
Reply

glo
08-19-2006, 09:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
LOL, I am sorry. The Hebrew was tiny and I made botht eh English and hebrew under the same font.
Don't be sorry ... it'll stick in my memory all the better! ;D
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
08-19-2006, 09:32 PM
LOL@Glo

Glo sister, i was wondering if you could shed some light on this, i did ask Phil12123 but he's seemed to have vanished!

Jesus on the cross said 'My God why do you forsske me'' Now if he's God why does he talk to God looking up at the heavens, or is he talking to himself? Which would apear quite delusional, no?
Reply

glo
08-19-2006, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
LOL@Glo

Glo sister, i was wondering if you could shed some light on this, i did ask Phil12123 but he's seemed to have vanished!

Jesus on the cross said 'My God why do you forsske me'' Now if he's God why does he talk to God looking up at the heavens, or is he talking to himself? Which would apear quite delusional, no?
Hi AvarAllahNoor

As you may know I enter such theological debates only with great hesitation.

Your question will certainly require a fair amount of reading, asking and pondering ... more that I can muster at 12.30 in the morning! :uhwhat

I will see what I can find out for you ... but I'm promising nothing!! ;D

peace
Reply

glo
08-20-2006, 08:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
LOL@Glo

Glo sister, i was wondering if you could shed some light on this, i did ask Phil12123 but he's seemed to have vanished!

Jesus on the cross said 'My God why do you forsske me'' Now if he's God why does he talk to God looking up at the heavens, or is he talking to himself? Which would apear quite delusional, no?
Hi AvarAllahNoor

Let me give you an attempted answer in my own words. :)

I believe that Jesus is God incarnate. That means God came to earth in the form of man. During the 33 years of his earthly life Jesus was human. (Before you ask how God can be God and man at the same time, let me quickly say that God is all-powerful and all-present, so of course he can)

I believe that with Jesus' death God made a new convenant with his people.
If you read the Old Testament you see a whole list of accounts of how people fail God. They did then, and they still do now.
God made a convenant first with Adam, then with Noah, then with Abraham, then with Moses. Yet, again and again people turned away from God.
The laws, the sacrifices ..., nothing enabled human beings to remain faithful to God.
Therefore, God made the final convenant when he offered the perfect human being as a sacrifice for all our sins - the only way we can be forgiven.

It is sin which separates us from God (I guess you may be able to agree with this part), so on the cross, when Jesus carried all out sins and failing, he felt separate from God.
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Matthew 27:46)

These words are actually from Psalm 22, which Christians see as a prophetic psalm, pointing towards Jesus' suffering and death.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...022&version=31

I don't expect you to agree with what I have written, but this is my attempt to explain my beliefs. If you genuinely wanted to hear my answer, here it is. I hope you can respect it. :)

I guess, some of your question relates to the trinity issue.
I gather that you have strong views in that department (see http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-trinity.html), so I won't go there now.

Peace,
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
08-20-2006, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi AvarAllahNoor

Let me give you an attempted answer in my own words. :)

I believe that Jesus is God incarnate. That means God came to earth in the form of man. During the 33 years of his earthly life Jesus was human. (Before you ask how God can be God and man at the same time, let me quickly say that God is all-powerful and all-present, so of course he can)

I believe that with Jesus' death God made a new convenant with his people.
If you read the Old Testament you see a whole list of accounts of how people fail God. They did then, and they still do now.
God made a convenant first with Adam, then with Noah, then with Abraham, then with Moses. Yet, again and again people turned away from God.
The laws, the sacrifices ..., nothing enabled human beings to remain faithful to God.
Therefore, God made the final convenant when he offered the perfect human being as a sacrifice for all our sins - the only way we can be forgiven.

It is sin which separates us from God (I guess you may be able to agree with this part), so on the cross, when Jesus carried all out sins and failing, he felt separate from God.
(Matthew 27:46)

These words are actually from Psalm 22, which Christians see as a prophetic psalm, pointing towards Jesus' suffering and death.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...022&version=31

I don't expect you to agree with what I have written, but this is my attempt to explain my beliefs. If you genuinely wanted to hear my answer, here it is. I hope you can respect it. :)

I guess, some of your question relates to the trinity issue.
I gather that you have strong views in that department (see http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-trinity.html), so I won't go there now.

Peace,
Well you are right that i still find it difficult to fathom that God could appear on earth after he claims he's not a living God. But that does not mean i won't respect your belief! Thanks for making the effort. :)

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
Reply

glo
08-20-2006, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well you are right that i still find it difficult to fathom that God could appear on earth after he claims he's not a living God. But that does not mean i won't respect your belief! Thanks for making the effort. :)
You are welcome. :)
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!
I'm curious. What does this mean?

peace.
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dougmusr
08-20-2006, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
LOL@Glo

Glo sister, i was wondering if you could shed some light on this, i did ask Phil12123 but he's seemed to have vanished!

Jesus on the cross said 'My God why do you forsske me'' Now if he's God why does he talk to God looking up at the heavens, or is he talking to himself? Which would apear quite delusional, no?
Read Psalm 22 to see where Jesus words came from. Jesus frequently quoted the Jewish scriptures. He obviously believed Psalm 22 applied to Him.

Ps 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?

Matthews account of the crucifixion says:

Mt 27:41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 "He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' "

Which is prophecy from Psalms.

Ps 22:8 "He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

Jesus said He prayed out loud so that the people would understand the God had sent Him.

Jn 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 "And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me." 43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!" 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."

I'm of the opinion that Islam does not believe Christ was crucified, and since it does not believe in the crucifixion, it obvioulsy denies this verse was contained in the original Gospel. Are you indicating by your question that you believe in the crucifixion, just not Christs diety?
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AvarAllahNoor
08-21-2006, 08:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
You are welcome. :)

I'm curious. What does this mean?

peace.
It's a Sikh salutation. Usually Sat Shri Akal (God is Truth) is said.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

''The Khalsa (pure) belong to God, Victory belongs to God''
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