/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Orthodox Islam being crushed?



Fishman
08-19-2006, 07:25 PM
:sl:
I think that the orthodox Muslims are being crushed, on one hand by the violent extremists who make non-Muslims hate us, and on the other by the liberal Western Muslim leaders, who claim to be promoting true and moderate Islam, yet denounce Islamic Law. I think that it will be a long time until non-Muslims tolerate othodox Muslims.

Do you agree.
:w:
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
KAding
08-19-2006, 11:25 PM
I'm not a Muslim and I have no insight into the Muslim community, so I voted I don't know. However, do you think orthodox Islam can be crushed by these two forces? It might be a wrong perception on my side, but isn't the number of Muslims who practice their faith more stictly increasing and not decreasing?
Reply

Woodrow
08-19-2006, 11:41 PM
I do not see Orthodox Muslims as being crushed I see it more on the upswing. What I do see disappearing or I should say becoming less noticible is the mid-eastern culture aspects. Not long ago it could be said that for all purposes 100% of the worlds Muslims were dark skinned of semetic ancestry, spoke Arabic as ther native language and ate predominatly mid-eastern foods. Today at least 80% of the worlds Muslims are not of semetic heritage, do not speak convesational Arabic and do not know the difference between a chapatti and a tortilla.

I believe the religion is getting stronger and that the Ummah is actually gaining strength, but there are many difference in the cultural aspects which some may interpret as a rift. It is not a rift and some of us put too much concern over it.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
08-19-2006, 11:45 PM
Think the answer to your poll says it all Fishman
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-19-2006, 11:57 PM
Allah will always preserve His deen(Islam) no matter what may happen to the Muslims on earth..
Reply

Fishman
08-20-2006, 09:29 AM
:sl:
What I mean is, the extremists cause people to hate us, and the liberals cause people to think we're extremists. Saying that you agree with Islamic law is a taboo now outside of Muslim circles. There's nothing wrong with believing in Islamic rule unless you want to harm innocent people! Again, I see Cold War parallells in this too, it's like saying that you're a communist in 1950's America!
:w:
Reply

E'jaazi
08-20-2006, 09:33 AM
It is true to some degree. There ia a hadith in which the Prophet (Salallahu Alayhe wa Sallam) says: (paraphrased) "Islam will return to Medinah as a snake will return to its hole (when all the other Muslim countries turn corrupt). So in a sense it is true, but in the end, those who follow the Qu'ran and the Sunnah will return to Medinah. You can read the real hadith @ www.sahihalbukhari.com
Reply

Quruxbadaan
08-20-2006, 09:43 AM
May allah open up the eyes of the liberal muslims the extreamist muslims and allow for the SUNNAH of The PRophet to prevail AMEEN


and he is the provider and the protecter

he is the merciful

he is the creator

he is the king

he is the judge

he is the one whoes will must come to pass

he is the one AHAAD

we will stand before him

may he have mercy on us

ameen
Reply

alcurad
08-20-2006, 08:06 PM
ameen to above

as to the question, well we've faced worse-(eg:end of caliphatefollowed by the colonial era)-and have come out for better.
as the saying goes :blows that dont break the back strengthen it.
salaam
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 02:04 AM
What is "Orthodox Islam"?:rollseyes
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
What is "Orthodox Islam"?:rollseyes
I do not believe that term actually exists for the most part. In my opinion it is a term that is subject to self interpretation. What I consider orthodox is a person who strives for strong Imam and does not let the cultural aspects of his surrounings affect his De'en. Then again I think some people may view it as living a life that incorporates that but also includes living a life based on Mid-Eastern Culture.

I believe that as Islam spreads the effect of mid-eastern culture diminishes however I believe that Imam can increase and people can still live a purely Islamic De'en. I do not believe people have to eat Cou-Cous and speak excellent conversational Arabic to have a strong Imam.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do not believe that term actually exists for the most part. In my opinion it is a term that is subject to self interpretation. What I consider orthodox is a person who strives for strong Imam and does not let the cultural aspects of his surrounings affect his De'en. Then again I think some people may view it as living a life that incorporates that but also includes living a life based on Mid-Eastern Culture.

I believe that as Islam spreads the effect of mid-eastern culture diminishes however I believe that Imam can increase and people can still live a purely Islamic De'en. I do not believe people have to eat Cou-Cous and speak excellent conversational Arabic to have a strong Imam.
Thanks for clarifying me this...
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 02:55 AM
Here is the dictionary definition of Orthodox:

Main Entry: 1or·tho·dox
Pronunciation: 'or-th&-"däks
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English orthodoxe, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French orthodoxe, from Late Latin orthodoxus, from Late Greek orthodoxos, from Greek orth- + doxa opinion -- more at DOXOLOGY
1 a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion b : CONVENTIONAL
2 capitalized : of, relating to, or constituting any of various conservative religious or political groups: as a : EASTERN ORTHODOX b : of or relating to Orthodox Judaism
- or·tho·dox·ly adverb



I just realised I should have asked the thread starter to define what he meant by Orthodox Islam.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow



I just realised I should have asked the thread starter to define what he meant by Orthodox Islam.
Agree!!!

In Malay, we spell it as "Ortodoks". Examples

1) Gereja Ortodoks Rusia
Russian Orthodox Church

2) Gereja Ortodoks Yunani
Greek Orthodox Church

3) Yahudi Ortodoks
Orthodox Judaism

In Old Malay Language, "Ortodoks" is "Kuno".
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 03:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Agree!!!

In Malay, we spell it as "Ortodoks". Examples

1) Gereja Ortodoks Rusia
Russian Orthodox Church

2) Gereja Ortodoks Yunani
Greek Orthodox Church

3) Yahudi Ortodoks
Orthodox Judaism

In Old Malay Language, "Ortodoks" is "Kuno".
Going off topic. When I was a young child and the only language spoken in my house was Lithuanian. I recall her saying the word kuno many times. Now I have to remember what it means. It is odd that Malaysian and Lithuanian would have a word that sounds the same.

Languages are strange I can not even comprehend how something so complex is learned by every human. Every human of at least functional inteligence learns at least one language. We take it for granted, but when you think of it it is a truly complex thing.

Now to get back on topic. I wonder if the poll would have been different if we all had the same meaning for the word Orthodox?
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Going off topic. When I was a young child and the only language spoken in my house was Lithuanian. I recall her saying the word kuno many times. Now I have to remember what it means. It is odd that Malaysian and Lithuanian would have a word that sounds the same.

Languages are strange I can not even comprehend how something so complex is learned by every human. Every human of at least functional inteligence learns at least one language. We take it for granted, but when you think of it it is a truly complex thing.

Now to get back on topic. I wonder if the poll would have been different if we all had the same meaning for the word Orthodox?
Off topic again - What's "Kuno" means in Lithuanian?

Malay language only have 3 original words:
1) Padi - paddy
2) Ubi - a plant that includes cassava, yam, potato
3) Babi - pig

There are hundreds of thousands of words in Malay, but only 3 which are ORIGINALLY Malay, others are taken from other languages like Sanskrit, Arabic, Portuguese, English and others....
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 06:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Off topic again - What's "Kuno" means in Lithuanian?

Malay language only have 3 original words:
1) Padi - paddy
2) Ubi - a plant that includes cassava, yam, potato
3) Babi - pig

There are hundreds of thousands of words in Malay, but only 3 which are ORIGINALLY Malay, others are taken from other languages like Sanskrit, Arabic, Portuguese, English and others....
LOL I finaly remembered the word but it is actually kūnas in proper Lithuanian, the pronunciation is very much like kuno it means "having a fat body, or being stout" I guess I was a chubby baby until I was about 5 years old. I remember my mother calling me that many times LOL

Sadly I do not remember much of the Language. when I was 5 years old I started school and then my family would no longer speak to me in lithuanian or let me speak it. They wanted me to learn only English so I would grow up sounding like a "normal" American.

Now relating this to the topic, that may be what the author of the thread had in mind. That the mid eastern Muslims are loosing their cultural heritage. I can see that happening. I did not start really learning my Lithuanian Heritage until I was an Adult.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 07:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
LOL I finaly remembered the word but it is actually kūnas in proper Lithuanian, the pronunciation is very much like kuno it means "having a fat body, or being stout" I guess I was a chubby baby until I was about 5 years old. I remember my mother calling me that many times LOL

Sadly I do not remember much of the Language. when I was 5 years old I started school and then my family would no longer speak to me in lithuanian or let me speak it. They wanted me to learn only English so I would grow up sounding like a "normal" American.

Now relating this to the topic, that may be what the author of the thread had in mind. That the mid eastern Muslims are loosing their cultural heritage. I can see that happening. I did not start really learning my Lithuanian Heritage until I was an Adult.
I want the author to 'define' what is Orthodox Islam?
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 07:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I want the author to 'define' what is Orthodox Islam?
That makes 2 of us at least. I am certain he will when he comes back on line. Right now all we can do is use our own concepts as to what it means and that makes the poll meaning less. I replied no because I was looking at it in terms of De'en, however if he means in terms of culture I would answer yes.
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-21-2006, 09:23 AM
Salaam,

Why follow the labels placed and coined by the west?

They name us as Extremist Muslim,Liberal Muslim and Moderate Muslim.

I say i am just a muslim.

A muslim whow follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
Who defend the Ummah and his own society and coutnry bvy the laws of Islam.

So what makes an extremist,one who follow the Islam warpath?
And what is a moderate?..One who say peace ,,peace peace,say that the other forget the true Islam but they themselves forget to dfend and fight the enemies of Islam.

So for me these extremist and moderates who are the opposites to one another are the true HYPROCRITES and ENEMY OF The Ummah.
They seek to split the Ummah from what is in the teaching of Islam..

As the Quran say,,THEY SAY WE SEEK PEACE BUT TRULLY THEYA RE THE MISCHIEF MAKERS.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-21-2006, 09:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Why follow the labels placed and coined by the west?

They name us as Extremist Muslim,Liberal Muslim and Moderate Muslim.

I say i am just a muslim.

A muslim whow follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
Who defend the Ummah and his own society and coutnry bvy the laws of Islam.

So what makes an extremist,one who follow the Islam warpath?
And what is a moderate?..One who say peace ,,peace peace,say that the other forget the true Islam but they themselves forget to dfend and fight the enemies of Islam.

So for me these extremist and moderates who are the opposites to one another are the true HYPROCRITES and ENEMY OF The Ummah.
They seek to split the Ummah from what is in the teaching of Islam..

As the Quran say,,THEY SAY WE SEEK PEACE BUT TRULLY THEYA RE THE MISCHIEF MAKERS.
I do agree with you..... why label ourselves as Sunnis, liberals, orthodoxs?

That's why I'm asking the author, what exactly he meant by the word "orthodox Islam?"
Reply

Fishman
08-21-2006, 10:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I do agree with you..... why label ourselves as Sunnis, liberals, orthodoxs?

That's why I'm asking the author, what exactly he meant by the word "orthodox Islam?"
:sl:
The Islam that is practiced as taught by the Prophet (pbuh), the Islam that was not invented as an offshoot or sect, the true Islam.

What I am trying to say is that the sects and fringe groups are taking power, and making the non-Muslims think wrong things about Islam. I'm not trying to promote division.

I heard a radio broadcast recently. A non-Muslim host described Muslims that want to live under Islamic law as extremists. Why? Because people like the Taliban, the Saudis and Bin Laden have made Islamic law look bad, and then some other Muslims have tried to counter this by saying 'Islamic law is not part of Islam'. Not enough people are standing up and saying 'yes, Islamic law is part of Islam, but Islamic law is good and just, not like what so-called 'Islamic states' are applying today'. We need to show the true Islam, not just the point of view of some fringe groups.
:w:
Reply

Zulkiflim
08-21-2006, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The Islam that is practiced as taught by the Prophet (pbuh), the Islam that was not invented as an offshoot or sect, the true Islam.

What I am trying to say is that the sects and fringe groups are taking power, and making the non-Muslims think wrong things about Islam. I'm not trying to promote division.

I heard a radio broadcast recently. A non-Muslim host described Muslims that want to live under Islamic law as extremists. Why? Because people like the Taliban, the Saudis and Bin Laden have made Islamic law look bad, and then some other Muslims have tried to counter this by saying 'Islamic law is not part of Islam'. Not enough people are standing up and saying 'yes, Islamic law is part of Islam, but Islamic law is good and just, not like what so-called 'Islamic states' are applying today'. We need to show the true Islam, not just the point of view of some fringe groups.
:w:

Salaam

Why should we perpetuate the views of non muslim on us?

Why perpetuate the name calling?
They dont understand Islam and its laws..
And evn when we have explained Islam to them they still persisit in calling us extremist or moderates.

Islam encompasses life,in good times and bad,in war and peace,in wealth or poor.

There is law for everything
But again extremist and moderates are actually breaking Islam apart.

Extremist uses the aggresive nature or verses in Islam to justify murder or attack,when Allah clearly say we should not trangress,and should defend.

But moderates say peace peace peace,,,we should turn the other cheek and so on thus forgetting the Quran order to defend and aid the Ummah.

So for me i am a muslim,i aid all muslim whom are in trouble as i can.
As Allah gives me stregth to give and to earn and to spen so shall i TRY my best to follow Allah ways.

To live in peace,to perform the smaller or greater Jihad....
Reply

Fishman
08-21-2006, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim

There is law for everything
But again extremist and moderates are actually breaking Islam apart.

Extremist uses the aggresive nature or verses in Islam to justify murder or attack,when Allah clearly say we should not trangress,and should defend.

But moderates say peace peace peace,,,we should turn the other cheek and so on thus forgetting the Quran order to defend and aid the Ummah.
:sl:
I agree with you here. They are both going astray. We should be just Muslims, or orthodox Muslims as I referred to them as before.
:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-21-2006, 03:14 PM
There is definitely an effort to crush orthodox Islam [meaning Islam as it was revealed in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet and practiced by the companions]. On one hand we have the secularists who are empowered in the west to assault Islam and deceive people into thinking that the source of all recent conflicts lies in a religion that has been around for over 14 centuries. On the other hand we have the extremists who are no less deviated from the Islamic teachings, and whose views are actually completely foreign to Islam and harm the Muslim community.
Reply

Geronimo
08-21-2006, 04:33 PM
What exactly are muslims trying to defend? Who is attacking Islam and how?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-21-2006, 04:40 PM
Well no one would want to believe that we feel Islam is being attacked. President Bush kinda made it easier by using the words "Islamic fascists." The fact that he dared to even add Islam to that word. Associating the religion of Islam with fascism is both offensive and historically inaccurate.
Reply

Geronimo
08-21-2006, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Well no one would want to believe that we feel Islam is being attacked. President Bush kinda made it easier by using the words "Islamic fascists." The fact that he dared to even add Islam to that word. Associating the religion of Islam with fascism is both offensive and historically inaccurate.
Do you know what fascism is? Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism. Isn't Islam all of these things? But to address Islamic fascism in itself, when we say Islamic fascism we aren't saying that Islam is a fascist idealology. People that take this point of view are normally muslims that are trying to find a reason to be offended. When we say Islamic Fascist we are speaking specificly to certain fascist that try to us Islam as a pretense for their goals.
Reply

Geronimo
08-21-2006, 04:50 PM
Once again, what exactly are muslims trying to defend? Who is attacking Islam and how?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-21-2006, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Do you know what fascism is? Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism. Isn't Islam all of these things? But to address Islamic fascism in itself, when we say Islamic fascism we aren't saying that Islam is a fascist idealology. People that take this point of view are normally muslims that are trying to find a reason to be offended. When we say Islamic Fascist we are speaking specificly to certain fascist that try to us Islam as a pretense for their goals.
yes i know it means that, but some felt like meaning it to be a terrorist act of some sort. prolly thats why.
Reply

Geronimo
08-21-2006, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
yes i know it means that, but some felt like meaning it to be a terrorist act of some sort. prolly thats why.
Well those people are ignorant and should open a book.
Reply

Woodrow
08-21-2006, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Once again, what exactly are muslims trying to defend? Who is attacking Islam and how?
this is not an attack by any specific group, it is an attack caused by non-Islamic Influences in the secular world. There are n-n-Muslim religious groups that will falsify religous beliefs in their attempts to "save" us poor lost Muslims.

There are the influences of the secular world that bombard us daily, immodest clothing, some TV shows, some Music some advertising campaigns.

There are also Muslims within our selves with extremist views who seem to misinterpret our beliefs and cause confusion among us as to what it really means to be a Muslim.

Then there are the battles we each wage within our own selves to keep on the right path and to live our lives in true submission to God(swt)

The enemy that is attacking "Orthodox" Islam is not a specific person or group. It is anything that leads us away from living our lives as Muslims.

An anology would be the Christian groups who say that some of the enemies of Christianity are "alcohol, rap music, pornography, drugs, false religions, crime."

Just Substitute the word Muslim for Christian in that sentence and that is what is attacking us.

Now that I understand what was meant as Orthodox by the thread starter I should have answered yes in the poll.
Reply

Fishman
08-21-2006, 08:34 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Do you know what fascism is? Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism. Isn't Islam all of these things?
Watch out when you post stuff like this, I have a very good history teacher!

1. I have no idea what corporatism is.
2. Islam is anti-nationalistic. The prophet (pbuh) even compared nationalism to biting your father's genitals.
3. Islam is slightly anachistic, as it urges obedience to Allah (swt) alone.
4. Islam is only anti-communist because communism is a man-made ideology, and because it promotes atheism. It shares many values with communism, such as equality between leaders and the people, giving to the needy, and wishing to unite all humanity. In fact, I would say Islam has much more in common with socialism and the left than fascism and the right.

From how my history teacher explains fascism, he says that fascists believe that some people are physically or naturally better or inherently worth more than others. Thus, if someone believed that whites are inherently superior to blacks, or that disabled people are worth less than the rest of people, that is fascism. Neither Islam nor any other religion I know believes these things. Islam believes that good Muslims are ideologically and morally superior to others. Islam believes that all people and races are of equal value except by piety. An Arab king who was born a Muslim could end up with less in the hereafter than a female black convert who is disabled in such a way that she cannot pray properly, or vice-versa.

Also, communism believes that it's true followers are ideologically superior to non-communists, and as we all know, communism is completely anti-fascist. I think there are quite a lot of similarities between communism and Islam. Both were started by a man who rose and awakened the masses against tyranny, both seek to unify humanity, both believe that all humans are physically equal, both have been mistreated and bad-mouthed by the West, and both have had followers who committed terrible atrocities in their name. But today people accept communists and hate Muslims.

BTW, I'm not saying that communism is compatible with or better than Islam. One of communism's demands is an atheist state, which is considered totally unacceptable by Islam. Communism is also a man-made political ideology, whilst Islam is a divinely-relvealled theological ideology.

Conclusion: Bush should not be saying Islamic fascists, but Islamic commies!
:w:
:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-21-2006, 08:41 PM
Oh God i like ur history! u made my point. thanx lol. The way Bush meant it wasnt in a nice way either! At least if hes smart he'd keep it to himself. He jus made it easier by sayin it.
Reply

Fishman
08-21-2006, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Oh God i like ur history! u made my point. thanx lol. The way Bush meant it wasnt in a nice way either! At least if hes smart he'd keep it to himself. He jus made it easier by sayin it.
:sl:
Did I mention that my history teacher's a communist himself?
:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-21-2006, 09:57 PM
lol no u didnt, but thanx for sharin >.<
Reply

Hayaat
08-22-2006, 02:33 AM
:sl:
that was good info fishman, i learned a lot:thumbs_up
and i read this hadith and i think it may apply
"Islam began as something strange and will return as something strange, so glad tidings to the strangers"
(true) Islam will stay strong Insha Allah regardless of what Non-Muslims
and Muslims say or do
Reply

north_malaysian
08-22-2006, 03:31 AM
I still have no idea what "Orthodox Islam" is?:?
Reply

Keltoi
08-22-2006, 03:32 AM
I could be mistaken, but I believe the word "orthodox" would mean a more traditional and strict version. In other words, not changed or altered by more secular beliefs.
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-22-2006, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I still have no idea what "Orthodox Islam" is?:?
"Orthodox Islam" mean original/old
may be:?
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-22-2006, 12:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba
It is true to some degree. There ia a hadith in which the Prophet (Salallahu Alayhe wa Sallam) says: (paraphrased) "Islam will return to Medinah as a snake will return to its hole (when all the other Muslim countries turn corrupt). So in a sense it is true, but in the end, those who follow the Qu'ran and the Sunnah will return to Medinah. You can read the real hadith @ www.sahihalbukhari.com
can't find there:-\
can u give the source of this hadis
Reply

KAding
08-22-2006, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:

Watch out when you post stuff like this, I have a very good history teacher!

1. I have no idea what corporatism is.
2. Islam is anti-nationalistic. The prophet (pbuh) even compared nationalism to biting your father's genitals.
Sorry, that is simply not true. Islam is indeed against all non-Islamic nationalism, but only because it has to compete with it. After all Islam has all the attributes of an nationalist ideology. Thats why Muslimsin the West always struggle with this dual loyalty towards their current state and their nation, that is the Ummah.

  • A common identity and a sense of brotherhood
  • Common myths about heritage and history
  • A desire to self-rule (the Ummah)
  • Exclusionairy, non-Muslims do not belong to the Muslim nation


What do you believe nationalism has that Islam has not?

3. Islam is slightly anachistic, as it urges obedience to Allah (swt) alone.
I am not convinced. Islam urges obedience to the state, especially if it's an Islamic state. The state in Islam is quite powerful, clearly it has the right to intervene in civil society and even private affairs in order to ensure the Islamic identity of society. Islam strongly believes in rules and regulation, otherwise it wouldn't be such a legalistic religion.

4. Islam is only anti-communist because communism is a man-made ideology, and because it promotes atheism. It shares many values with communism, such as equality between leaders and the people, giving to the needy, and wishing to unite all humanity. In fact, I would say Islam has much more in common with socialism and the left than fascism and the right.
To a certain extend I agree with that. Although, many would say that Communism and Fascism have much in common also, both being totalitarian ideologies that demand their population follow state doctrine.

Btw I disagree that Islam wants to unite all of humanity. It only wants to unite all Muslims. Islam also does not share the communist desire to eradicate private property and while it does promote solidarity, one must not forget that solidarity which the own nation is also one of the central tenets of Fascism. I have to say that so far, I have seen little solidarity of Muslims with oppressed non-Muslims, 99% of the attention on for example this forum goes to oppresion of 'us Muslims' by 'them non-Muslims'.

From how my history teacher explains fascism, he says that fascists believe that some people are physically or naturally better or inherently worth more than others. Thus, if someone believed that whites are inherently superior to blacks, or that disabled people are worth less than the rest of people, that is fascism. Neither Islam nor any other religion I know believes these things.
That is true I suppose. Although, to quote from another thread in the Comparative religion section: "you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures"

That smacks of superiority thinking. And I must say, generally Islam does not speak with much respect about polytheists or atheists. But again, this is not based on race, so it is certainly not as bad.

Islam believes that good Muslims are ideologically and morally superior to others. Islam believes that all people and races are of equal value except by piety. An Arab king who was born a Muslim could end up with less in the hereafter than a female black convert who is disabled in such a way that she cannot pray properly, or vice-versa.
Very true again. Islam is not rascist like fascists generally were! A very big difference indeed!

Also, communism believes that it's true followers are ideologically superior to non-communists, and as we all know, communism is completely anti-fascist. I think there are quite a lot of similarities between communism and Islam. Both were started by a man who rose and awakened the masses against tyranny, both seek to unify humanity, both believe that all humans are physically equal, both have been mistreated and bad-mouthed by the West, and both have had followers who committed terrible atrocities in their name. But today people accept communists and hate

BTW, I'm not saying that communism is compatible with or better than Islam. One of communism's demands is an atheist state, which is considered totally unacceptable by Islam. Communism is also a man-made political ideology, whilst Islam is a divinely-relvealled theological ideology.

Conclusion: Bush should not be saying Islamic fascists, but Islamic commies!
:w:
:w:
You make a good argument. But nevertheless, Islam is anti-communist, both because of his acceptance of private property and it's rejection of and intolerance for atheism. Also, the way communists implemented equality was also different, it was generally highly feminist pushing women into the workforce. So I'm not sure Islamocommunists would be much better to designate that certain segment of Islamic political doctrine :(. What about Islamosemicommusemifascists? :X
Reply

Fishman
08-22-2006, 03:58 PM
:sl:
Sorry, that is simply not true. Islam is indeed against all non-Islamic nationalism, but only because it has to compete with it. After all Islam has all the attributes of an nationalist ideology. Thats why Muslimsin the West always struggle with this dual loyalty towards their current state and their nation, that is the Ummah.

  • A common identity and a sense of brotherhood
    Certainly.
  • Common myths about heritage and history
  • A desire to self-rule (the Ummah)
  • Exclusionairy, non-Muslims do not belong to the Muslim nation


What do you believe nationalism has that Islam has not?
Having feelings of 'nationalism' about the ummah is different to having feelings of nationalism for a country. If you say 'I will fight, struggle and die for England', you are not supporting an ideology, but you are supporting a place, something which I do not understand in the slightest. If I said 'I will fight, struggle and die for Islam', on the other hand, I am showing support for an ideology, something which I have always understood. I don't think there is anything nationalistic about expressing love for a group of people who believe the same thing as you.

  • Exclusionairy, non-Muslims do not belong to the Muslim nation
Of course! A non-Muslim saying that they are part of the Ummah is like me (an Englishman) saying that I'm American!



I am not convinced. Islam urges obedience to the state, especially if it's an Islamic state. The state in Islam is quite powerful, clearly it has the right to intervene in civil society and even private affairs in order to ensure the Islamic identity of society. Islam strongly believes in rules and regulation, otherwise it wouldn't be such a legalistic religion.
Islam demands that you have complete obedience to Allah (swt). The government of the Islamic state cannot legally do anything except with Allah's permission. No new law can be made unless it follows what Allah (swt) has said, and no law that Allah (swt) has made can be removed except by Allah (swt)'s permission.

Islam does agree with rules and regulations, but does not agree with man-made ones, only with those made by Allah (swt).


Btw I disagree that Islam wants to unite all of humanity. It only wants to unite all Muslims. Islam also does not share the communist desire to eradicate private property and while it does promote solidarity, one must not forget that solidarity which the own nation is also one of the central tenets of Fascism. I have to say that so far, I have seen little solidarity of Muslims with oppressed non-Muslims, 99% of the attention on for example this forum goes to oppresion of 'us Muslims' by 'them non-Muslims'.
Islam wishes to unite all humans under it's belief system. So does every other ideology. Don't you feel like it would be better if everyone was united in athiesm, with no more religious wars? Didn't Marx think that the whole world must undergo a communist revolution and live united under communism? Don't animal rights proponents want everyone to believe that animals are equal to humans?

Although Islam does not believe in eradication of private property, it is against the right to 'use and abuse'. See that computer screen that you are looking at? That belongs to Allah (swt). See that house out of that window? That belongs to Allah (swt) too. See that body that your soul is in? That belongs to Allah (swt). He created all of these things, they all belong to him. He is just letting you use them.

According to the Islamic belief, everything on Earth belongs to Allah alone, and people are only entrusted with managing them, and live off the Earth and its products. This is contrary to the capitalist concept of ownership based on the Roman doctrine of "the right to use and abuse". It also lays foundation for ecology, as the creations of Allah (including plants and animals) should only be destroyed if absolutely necessary. This is similar to the concept of private possessions introduced by anarchist theorist Proudhon in his work "What is Property?".
That's from Wikipedia.

That is true I suppose. Although, to quote from another thread in the Comparative religion section: "you disbeliever, for you are one of the worst of living creatures"

That smacks of superiority thinking. And I must say, generally Islam does not speak with much respect about polytheists or atheists. But again, this is not based on race, so it is certainly not as bad.
As I was saying, Islam believes that good Muslims are ideologically (and thus morally) superior to other human beings, not inherently. If this disbeliever were to become a good believer, he would no longer be inferior.
This way of thinking is not confined to fascists either. Communists talk like this about capitalists, animal rights promoters talk like this about pro-testing organisations, and you probably talk like this about fascists and nazis.



Very true again. Islam is not rascist like fascists generally were! A very big difference indeed!



You make a good argument. But nevertheless, Islam is anti-communist, both because of his acceptance of private property and it's rejection of and intolerance for atheism. Also, the way communists implemented equality was also different, it was generally highly feminist pushing women into the workforce. So I'm not sure Islamocommunists would be much better to designate that certain segment of Islamic political doctrine :(. What about Islamosemicommusemifascists? :X
Islam is much more anti-fascist and anti-capitalist than anti-communist. There are a few important differences, such as the atitude to athiests, and a few small differences, such as the attitude to feminism, but Islam is much closer to communism than fascism.
:w:
Reply

QuranStudy
08-22-2006, 11:04 PM
Nice post, brother Fishman. Reps to you.
Reply

czgibson
08-23-2006, 12:02 AM
Greetings,

Some good, thought provoking posts by KAding and Fishman.

Let's look at the supposed attributes of "fascist" Islam that haven't been addressed:

corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism. Isn't Islam all of these things?
Firstly, a reminder that these attributes are being listed as a way of persuading people that Islam constitutes some kind of fascism. Fascism, it seems to me, has become more of a term of abuse rather than a distinct ideology. These days, it would be a brave politician who sought to encourage support under a platform that called itself fascist. The term has consequently become rather meaningless, so any characterisation of Islam as being fascist is more likely to indicate some sort of bias in the speaker rather than being any sort of meaningful description.

Let's look at the charges though:

Corporatism

This term refers to a corporative state or system - one whose principal organising factor is that of a corporation. A corporation is, according to dictionary.com:

1. "A body that is granted a charter recognizing it as a separate legal entity having its own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of its members" or

2. "Such a body created for purposes of government" or

3. "A group of people combined into or acting as one body".

I don't know enough about Islam to answer to the charge given, but I would guess that (3) is a given, and that if such an organising principle was the sole criterion justifying the charge of corporatism, then Islam would fall into it (at least in its ideal state). Would the same be true of definitions (1) and (2)?

Authoritarianism

Once again, dictionary.com:

1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.
2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience.

With its total reliance on the Qur'an and Sunnah for guidance and the answers to all of life's issues, I don't see how Islam can be described as anything other than an authoritarian system.

Militarism

1. Glorification of the ideals of a professional military class.
2. Predominance of the armed forces in the administration or policy of the state.
3. A policy in which military preparedness is of primary importance to a state.

(You guessed it - dictionary.com)

I'm really not sure about this one, so it'll be up to people who are better informed than me to answer the charge.

In Islamic culture, the mujahideen are given huge respect by many adherents, but are they a "professional military class"? I don't know the answer to that question, so I'll leave it open.

In an Islamic society, do the armed forces predominate? I would think not. Surely imams and scholars would be the primary motivating forces.

(3) is more of an issue. I'm sure that religious instruction would be of primary importance in an Islamic state, but given the amount of military orders given in the Qur'an, an outsider could be forgiven for thinking that this formed a major part of the religion.

Anti-Liberalism

First of all, here's liberalism according to dictionary.com:

1. The state or quality of being liberal.
2.
1. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
2. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
4. Liberalism
1. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
2. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.

And my own precis of the same:

In political terms, liberalism stands for individual autonomy, free intellectual inquiry and public consent to government laws; in economic terms, laissez-faire capitalism, and, in its (dominant) Protestant form, the rejection of dogmatism, whether religious or otherwise.

With the exception of public consent to government laws, is it not the case that Islam is opposed to all of these things?

We've witnessed a good debate on some of the charges levelled against "fascist" Islam - I'd be interested to hear what people have to say about these other ones.

Peace
Reply

QuranStudy
08-23-2006, 12:13 AM
Islam is being degraded by ignorants, which is somewhat influential.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...y-realize.html
Reply

czgibson
08-23-2006, 12:32 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Islam is being degraded by ignorants, which is somewhat influential.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...y-realize.html
What a good way to promote your thread! I hope you find the attention you seek.

If you'd like to respond to any of the (on-topic) points raised in my post, then feel free.

Peace
Reply

QuranStudy
08-23-2006, 12:36 AM
My post did not point to your posts, but it is related to the topic. Othodox Islam is being destroyed due to outspoken ignorant atheists who find Islam as a means of attaining political popularity.
Reply

czgibson
08-23-2006, 12:47 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
My post did not point to your posts, but it is related to the topic. Othodox Islam is being destroyed due to outspoken ignorant atheists who find Islam as a means of attaining political popularity.
Seeing as atheists oppose all of Islam, rather than any particular sect of it, why do you think that they are responsible for the destruction of orthodox Islam?

Isn't that just a bit paranoid?

Peace
Reply

QuranStudy
08-23-2006, 01:00 AM
Seeing as atheists oppose all of Islam, rather than any particular sect of it, why do you think that they are responsible for the destruction of orthodox Islam?

Isn't that just a bit paranoid?

Peace
Personally, I do have fear of atheists. I avoid them whenever I can (other than in forums).
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-23-2006, 01:05 AM
Honestly brother ive mentioned this before. Everyone is different. The way ur talking would make people think twice about Islam. Allah says in the Quran "invite to the way of your Lord with beautiful preaching". Im sure u know that. I have friends who are atheist and are open to knowing Islam. Allah guides who he wills.
Both of u should stop here and end it.
Peace
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-23-2006, 03:24 AM
lot of off topic

now what will be answer

Orthodox Islam mean =?
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-23-2006, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by i_m_tipu
lot of off topic

now what will be answer

Orthodox Islam mean =?
*bump*
Reply

KAding
08-23-2006, 01:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:

Having feelings of 'nationalism' about the ummah is different to having feelings of nationalism for a country. If you say 'I will fight, struggle and die for England', you are not supporting an ideology, but you are supporting a place, something which I do not understand in the slightest. If I said 'I will fight, struggle and die for Islam', on the other hand, I am showing support for an ideology, something which I have always understood. I don't think there is anything nationalistic about expressing love for a group of people who believe the same thing as you.
Sorry, I just don't see the difference. People who fight for their nation don't do so just for the 'place', they obviously fight for an ideal. Americans will say they are fighting for "liberty and justice for all". A frenchman will say he is fighting for "libert&#233;, &#233;galit&#233;, fraternit&#233;". Usually they just fight for their way of life, for their family, but also their neightbours, because they feel a bond.

I just don't see how that is any different from a Muslim who says he will fight for Islam. Islam the nation is no different from other nations, all nations have a common identity and common ideals. Heck, religion is still very much part of what defines many nations across the globe. Perhaps what they are fighting for is more outspoken in Islam, but that only proves my point no? That Muslims feel they are 'a people' that need a state controlled by these same 'people'. That is the definition of nationalism. I don't believe it is any different emotionally or even rationally from say, American nationalism.

Christianity certainly does not share that with Islam, IMHO nor does Buddhism or frankly any other religion, except Judaism.

Of course! A non-Muslim saying that they are part of the Ummah is like me (an Englishman) saying that I'm American!
Yep, exactly.

Islam demands that you have complete obedience to Allah (swt). The government of the Islamic state cannot legally do anything except with Allah's permission. No new law can be made unless it follows what Allah (swt) has said, and no law that Allah (swt) has made can be removed except by Allah (swt)'s permission.

Islam does agree with rules and regulations, but does not agree with man-made ones, only with those made by Allah (swt).
I agree. But Islam is certianly not anarchistic, not even a bit. Islamic rules are there to be followed, not just in public life, but also in private affairs. It is my impression that most Muslims think it is the purpose of the Islamic state to ensure that Islamic law is followed by all Muslims. Any Islamic state for example will simply outlaw pork, although eating pork in private is clearly a personal choice. But that does not matter in an Islamic state. You are Muslim, thus you shall not eat it, if you do, even in in private, you will have to be punished. It does not say, eating pork is between you and God, no I have the strong impressions Muslims think it is the job of the state to eradicate these victim-less crimes. This is not anarchistic, this is the complete opposite. It is totalitarian.

to&#183;tal&#183;i&#183;tar&#183;i&#183;an (tō-tăl'ĭ-t&#226;r'ē-ən) pronunciation
Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life

Islam wishes to unite all humans under it's belief system. So does every other ideology. Don't you feel like it would be better if everyone was united in athiesm, with no more religious wars? Didn't Marx think that the whole world must undergo a communist revolution and live united under communism? Don't animal rights proponents want everyone to believe that animals are equal to humans?
True. Islam is hardly different in this than many other ideologies. I would also want everyone in the world to live under liberal rule, although I must say I care little about what religion people follow.

But there is a difference between, say, Liberalism and Islam in this respect. While liberalism essentially says: "to each his own"; Islam says "Islam is the only way". As I just explained the all-encompassing nature of Islam, it's strong desire to influence even private affairs, makes it somewhat more dominant in the life of human beings. A world living in a liberal order would thus be much more pluralistic than one under Islamic order.

Although Islam does not believe in eradication of private property, it is against the right to 'use and abuse'. See that computer screen that you are looking at? That belongs to Allah (swt). See that house out of that window? That belongs to Allah (swt) too. See that body that your soul is in? That belongs to Allah (swt). He created all of these things, they all belong to him. He is just letting you use them.

That's from Wikipedia.
Good point. So as far as capitalism is concerned Islam seem very close to what social-democrats believe. That is: okay we can live with private property, but we have to abolish the execesses. Obviously, the logic is kinda different, but the policies would essentially be the same.

I really wonder how an Islamic state would manage a modern economy.

As I was saying, Islam believes that good Muslims are ideologically (and thus morally) superior to other human beings, not inherently. If this disbeliever were to become a good believer, he would no longer be inferior.
This way of thinking is not confined to fascists either. Communists talk like this about capitalists, animal rights promoters talk like this about pro-testing organisations, and you probably talk like this about fascists and nazis.
True. Although not all ideologies are as explicit in expressing their moral and ideological superiority.

Islam is much more anti-fascist and anti-capitalist than anti-communist. There are a few important differences, such as the atitude to athiests, and a few small differences, such as the attitude to feminism, but Islam is much closer to communism than fascism.
:w:
Well, Islam is unique. So it's safe to say it is neither communist nor fascist :). I stand by my point though, that is shares one thing with both ideologies, namely its totalitarian nature. And as a religion it only shares with Judaism the idea that religion = nation.
Reply

xlisax
08-24-2006, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Islam is being degraded by ignorants
but not by the the Muslims who behead people, who walk into a school in Beslan Russia and murder over 300 children, or try to blow up 10 airliners, or fly 2 planes into buildings, or blowing up nightclubs in Bali, or kidnapping innocent people, or killing innocent people in London, or the way Muslims treat women, ect ect.
Reply

north_malaysian
08-24-2006, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by xlisax
but not by the the Muslims who behead people, who walk into a school in Beslan Russia and murder over 300 children, or try to blow up 10 airliners, or fly 2 planes into buildings, or blowing up nightclubs in Bali, or kidnapping innocent people, or killing innocent people in London, or the way Muslims treat women, ect ect.
those Muslims you mentioned are the ignorants of the exact teaching of Islam
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
08-24-2006, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by xlisax
but not by the the Muslims who behead people, who walk into a school in Beslan Russia and murder over 300 children, or try to blow up 10 airliners, or fly 2 planes into buildings, or blowing up nightclubs in Bali, or kidnapping innocent people, or killing innocent people in London
Islam isn't degraded by the actions of a few criminals anymore than any other religion is when their adherents commit crimes. The fact that such actions have absolutely nothing to do with Islam should be apparent from the unanimous condemnation they have recieved from Muslim scholars. Do yourself a favour and learn the truth about how terrorism is condemned by Islam.
or the way Muslims treat women, ect ect.
It is quite audacious to come to a forum with literally several thousand Muslim women and then inform them about how [you imagine] they're treated! Here's another link with many articles which shatter western myths about women in Islam:
http://www.load-islam.com/family_soc...hp?topic_id=14

:w:
Reply

Cabdullahi
02-08-2008, 08:36 PM
I hate it when they say there are moderate muslims and extremists this is an act to create divide this is the way western government deal with strong groups that disagree the governments ideas
what they do is slowly bring an issue up publicize it and then they just sit back and watch both parties have a ago at each other this how they dismantled countries like somalia(US supporting the warlords)

Its a big tactical game
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-24-2011, 04:40 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-23-2009, 06:56 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-16-2009, 08:36 AM
  4. Replies: 49
    Last Post: 09-08-2007, 04:42 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!