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Hashim_507
08-23-2006, 10:13 AM
In the face of Iran's race to obtain nuclear power, Israel signed a contract with Germany last month to buy two Dolphin-class submarines that will, according to foreign reports, provide superior second-strike nuclear capabilities, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

The submarines will be assembled in Germany and provided with a propulsion system allowing them to remain underwater for far longer than the submarines currently in the Israel Navy's fleet.

According to sources close to the deal, the submarines will be operational in the near future.

The Post has also learned that the navy is considering installing a Fixed Underwater Sonar System (FUSS) off the coast to detect foreign submarines.

In 1993, Iran bought two Russian Kilo-class submarines and eight mini-submarines from North Korea, although officials said this was not the only reason the system was being considered. In 2005, Israel spotted a Western submarine snooping off its shore.

The contract signing was said to have come after a long dispute over the price and financing of the submarines. According to the details obtained by the Post, Israel will purchase the two Dolphins, manufactured by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG, for $1.27 billion, a third of which will be financed by the German government.

The navy already has three Dolphin-class submarines. They are the most expensive weapon platforms in the IDF's arsenal. Germany donated the first two submarines after the first Gulf War and split the cost of the third with Israel. The three submarines currently in the navy's possession employ a diesel-electric propulsion system, which requires them to resurface frequently to recharge their batteries.

The new submarines - called the U212 - will be fitted with a new German technology in which the propulsion system combines a conventional diesel lead-acid battery system and an air-independent propulsion system used for slow, silent cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage.

The submarines will also incorporate specifications gleaned from Israeli experience. The Dolphins currently in the navy's fleet were tailor-made for Israel's needs and reportedly have considerable operational capability. They are designed for a crew of 35 and can support 10 passengers. They have a maximum speed of 20 knots, a range of 4,500 kilometers and, according to Jane's Defense Weekly, the capability to launch cruise missiles carrying nuclear warheads.

"With the new German technology," an official close to the deal said, "the new submarines will be able to remain submerged for much, much longer than the older Dolphin models."

News of the impending deal first emerged in November after Der Spiegel reported that chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's outgoing government had agreed to sell Israel two submarines at a heavily discounted price.

Prior to then, the German government had repeatedly turned down the request, supposedly because of reports the navy had outfitted the older submarines with Israeli-made, sea-launched cruise missiles.

Sensitive armament sales need approval from Berlin's Security Council. Several months ago, however, the German government, now headed by Chancellor Angela Merkel, approved the deal after, sources told the Post, no significant public opposition was voiced.

Closure of the deal followed on the heels of a warming in German-Israel ties. In 2005, the countries agreed for the first time to hold joint ground maneuvers. In June, the INS Eilat missile ship participated for the first time in a NATO exercise in the Black Sea, together with German Navy.


Satellite?blobcolurlimage&ampblobheaderimage2Fjpeg&ampblobkeyid&ampblobtableJPImage&ampblobwhere1132320215160&ampcachecontrolnever&ampssbinarytrue -
One of the Israeli Navy's three Dolphin submarines.
Photo: IDF
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Zionist are preparing for huge wars, they are ready to massacre more civilians in the middle east regions. Why do they pressure iran on nukes? Take a look at those submarines, it has nuclear capability. Those bullies are looking for troubles, what kind of trouble? WAR!!!
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wilberhum
08-23-2006, 06:01 PM
Zionist are preparing for huge wars.
Of course Israel is preparing for a huge war. With both neighbors having stated objectives or destroying them, why wouldn’t they?
They are ready to massacre more civilians in the Middle East regions.
Then maybe there neighbors will think twice before attacking them again.
Why do they pressure Iran on nukes?
Because Iran wants to destroy Israel too.
Those bullies are looking for troubles, what kind of trouble? WAR!!!
Are they looking for war or preparing for the enviable?

Do you think only Muslim countries have the right to defend themselves?
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Woodrow
08-23-2006, 06:37 PM
I am still a bit confused over the subs. I could be wrong, but I have never viewed a sub as being a weapon of defense.

I do agree though that any country has a right to have anything for self defense. I just don't like the potential for aggression.

I just wish there was a such thing as pure defense weapons.

I don't like the idea of any country having nuke capabilities. It is just a matter of time before some country is going to be like a little kid with a big box of fireworks, going to have to try the biggest one just to see what it will do.
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ManchesterFolk
08-23-2006, 06:39 PM
I could be wrong, but I have never viewed a sub as being a weapon of defense.
If Iran drops a Nuke on Israel how will they respond? Maybe Iran will think twice before they fire a Nuke if they know that two subs are waiting to strike them back.

Psycologically it is completly a weapon of defense. Why make the purchase so public while Iran is striving for Nukes?
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Woodrow
08-23-2006, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
If Iran drops a Nuke on Israel how will they respond? Maybe Iran will think twice before they fire a Nuke if they know that two subs are waiting to strike them back.

Psycologically it is completly a weapon of defense. Why make the purchase so public while Iran is striving for Nukes?
Good point, but it can also be viewed as a potential threat. Even a hamster is going to bite if it feels threatened. It is a very risky game and opens the door for undesired results.

I would suspect that every nation, history portrayed as aggressors, saw themselves as defenders at the time.

Who is a defender and who is an aggressor appears to be a judgemental value decided by whoever is writting the history.
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Keltoi
08-23-2006, 08:32 PM
Israel already has nuclear capability, so I don't see why two sub purchases should be seen as some kind of weapon build-up.
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Woodrow
08-23-2006, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Israel already has nuclear capability, so I don't see why two sub purchases should be seen as some kind of weapon build-up.
The subs have missle capabilities. Short range missles can be launched close to the oppossing force and this eliminates the need to develope long range missles. Gives a patriot missle the effectiveness of a Saturn 5 ICBM without the cost or the necessary testing. Israel already has Patrots for defense. They are short range rendering their usage to defense, unless the launch site can be moved closer to a distant target.
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therebbe
08-23-2006, 08:58 PM
Ths subs are basically a publicity stunt and a safe gaurd warning anyone that if Israel is attacked to not think that there will not retaliation. You see, Israel being about the size of New Jersey if hit by a Nuclear Bomb could be completly destroyed as a country. Israel's enemies know this, and Israel is trying to show, that any country that does attack Israel will be hit back by Subs with Nuclear bombs. I think it is a smart move on there part to show they have the ability to strike back even if there entire country is a Nuclear wasteland. It could possibly make enemies think twice before attacking.
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north_malaysian
08-24-2006, 04:40 AM
Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia - all have submarines ... it's all part of the Defence collection items.... every nation with sea shores need at least one submarine!!!
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Trumble
08-24-2006, 06:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The subs have missle capabilities. Short range missles can be launched close to the oppossing force and this eliminates the need to develope long range missles. Gives a patriot missle the effectiveness of a Saturn 5 ICBM without the cost or the necessary testing. Israel already has Patrots for defense. They are short range rendering their usage to defense, unless the launch site can be moved closer to a distant target.
The weapon concerned is the Popeye Turbo, an Israeli designed cruise missile with a range of 350km or so. It is already equipped on the Israeli Dolphins in service, so there is no new capability here, just slightly better submarines.
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AvarAllahNoor
08-24-2006, 08:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Israel already has nuclear capability, so I don't see why two sub purchases should be seen as some kind of weapon build-up.
No harm adding a few more to the stock pile :giggling:
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AvarAllahNoor
08-24-2006, 08:29 AM
Altoghether now, 'We all live in a yellow submarine,
Yellow submarine, yellow submarine...
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catmando
08-24-2006, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Altoghether now, 'We all live in a yellow submarine,
Yellow submarine, yellow submarine...
Lol ;D
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 05:59 PM
If Iran drops a Nuke on Israel how will they respond? Maybe Iran will think twice before they fire a Nuke if they know that two subs are waiting to strike them back.
Any military expert will tell you that Israel has little chance of dfeating Iran, unless its an air warfare or if Israel uses nukes. Israel already lost twice to Hezbollah.
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wilberhum
08-24-2006, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Any military expert will tell you that Israel has little chance of dfeating Iran, unless its an air warfare or if Israel uses nukes. Israel already lost twice to Hezbollah.
I think if the choice is distruction and not occupation, Iran doesn't stand a chance.
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Hashim_507
08-24-2006, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Of course Israel is preparing for a huge war. With both neighbors having stated objectives or destroying them, why wouldn’t they?

Then maybe there neighbors will think twice before attacking them again.

Because Iran wants to destroy Israel too.

Are they looking for war or preparing for the enviable?

Do you think only Muslim countries have the right to defend themselves?

I dont think Iran will ever drop nuke bomb on isreal, Iran was phrasing defeating zionism but not to wipe Isreal out of the map using nuke bombs.
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Keltoi
08-24-2006, 07:20 PM
Personally, I don't think Iran makes any distinction between "Zionism" and the state of Israel.
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 07:26 PM
Personally, I don't think Iran makes any distinction between "Zionism" and the state of Israel.
You should watch Ahmedinejad's interview with Mike Wallace. He clearly explained the distinction and his motives.
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therebbe
08-24-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
You should watch Ahmedinejad's interview with Mike Wallace. He clearly explained the distinction and his motives.
Of course he did. The whole world was watching and it would be bad PR to reveal your plans. Would it not?
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ACC
08-24-2006, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Any military expert will tell you that Israel has little chance of dfeating Iran, unless its an air warfare or if Israel uses nukes. Israel already lost twice to Hezbollah.
If Israel had fought a war with the 'gloves off' hebollah would cease to exist as a viable entity. Western and Western style countries often have to fight wars in the public eye just as much as in the field. Their enemies are usually not held to the same standards,.

That being said, Israel would defeat Iran in an all-out war. If nuclear weapons are included, then neither side wins. Israel would be mostly destroyed but would most certainly wipe out practically every Iranian from the world as well.

Really bad scenarios to contemplate.
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 10:12 PM
If Israel had fought a war with the 'gloves off' hebollah would cease to exist as a viable entity. Western and Western style countries often have to fight wars in the public eye just as much as in the field. Their enemies are usually not held to the same standards,.
Let's also not forget that Hezbollah wasnt fighting with "gloves off."

Just because Israel can bomb civilian buildings and roads doesnt make them a powerful militart force. This is the second time Israel had hurt by mere katyusha rockets.

That being said, Israel would defeat Iran in an all-out war. If nuclear weapons are included, then neither side wins. Israel would be mostly destroyed but would most certainly wipe out practically every Iranian from the world as well.
How do you justify this. LOL, you really need military education. The only advantage Israel has are advanced weapons and planes. Go visit a military forum. Most would agree than Iran would defeat Israel in a ground war quite easilly. That post was really hilarious.
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ManchesterFolk
08-24-2006, 10:16 PM
Let's also not forget that Hezbollah wasnt fighting with "gloves off."
What do you call human shields and rockets at civilians? I wonder what gloves off is to you.

How do you justify this. LOL, you really need military education. The only advantage Israel has are advanced weapons and planes. Go visit a military forum. Most would agree than Iran would defeat Israel in a ground war quite easilly. That post was really hilarious.
Israeli planes were run circles around Iran and destroy any Iranian ground force.
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 10:28 PM
What do you call human shields and rockets at civilians? I wonder what gloves off is to you.
It's called terrorism, which the Israelis have committed in the war.

What's gloves off to me?? You do know that Hezbollah has way more advanced weaponry than mere katyusha rockets, do you?

Israeli planes were run circles around Iran and destroy any Iranian ground force.
LOL. Really, why are you people so simple minded? I think I need to refer you to links of known Iranian weaponry and planes.
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wilberhum
08-24-2006, 10:33 PM
My dad can whip your dad. And that kind of summs up that.

Lets just hope we never find out.
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 11:11 PM
Lets just hope we never find out.
It's apparent that Americans will become the aggressors, as usual.
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wilberhum
08-24-2006, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
It's apparent that Americans will become the aggressors, as usual.
I assume that we will cross the border and kill more Lebanonese. ;D :rant: :hiding: :uuh:
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 11:20 PM
I assume that we will cross the border and kill more Lebanonese.
Maybe wage another war in the ME??
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wilberhum
08-24-2006, 11:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Maybe wage another war in the ME??
We just might. I'm sure the current one will not be the last one.
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QuranStudy
08-24-2006, 11:33 PM
We just might. I'm sure the current one will not be the last one.
Of course not. When it comes to ME, America is used to failures.
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ManchesterFolk
08-25-2006, 01:48 AM
LOL. Really, why are you people so simple minded? I think I need to refer you to links of known Iranian weaponry and planes.
If your going to be that naive then continue to be. Continue to speak without any knowledge. Its fun watching.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 01:57 AM
Israel fighting Hezbollah and Israel fighting Iran is two completely different scenarios. A war with Iran would be more conventional, which Israel obviously has the overwhelming advantage. Another problem for Iran is that Israel isn't a neighbor, and this would require Iran to rely on missile attacks. Iran would have to go through Iraq or Turkey to pose any ground threat to Israel, and that isn't going to happen. The Israeli airforce would be flying sorties that would make Lebanon look like a rowdy bachelor party. That being said, the missile attacks from Iran would be damaging, but I'm not sure to what extent. Bad scenario, especially for Iran.
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ManchesterFolk
08-25-2006, 01:59 AM
Israel would 'wipe' Iran off the map with its hundreds of jericho III nukes. Iran would be no longer a nation if Israel chose to press a button.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 02:20 AM
LOL@ at you. Hope you enjoy your Zionist wet dream while it lasts :)
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 02:23 AM
Another problem for Iran is that Israel isn't a neighbor, and this would require Iran to rely on missile attacks.
That is a disadvantage for ISRAEL.

The countries between Iran and Israel will give Iran a green light to wipe Israel out.
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ManchesterFolk
08-25-2006, 03:29 AM
Keep thinking that. Why should I care? Believe what you want.
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ACC
08-25-2006, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Let's also not forget that Hezbollah wasnt fighting with "gloves off."

Just because Israel can bomb civilian buildings and roads doesnt make them a powerful militart force. This is the second time Israel had hurt by mere katyusha rockets.



How do you justify this. LOL, you really need military education. The only advantage Israel has are advanced weapons and planes. Go visit a military forum. Most would agree than Iran would defeat Israel in a ground war quite easilly. That post was really hilarious.
Apparantely you are a mix of Napolean, Charlamagne, Eisenhower and Rommel. Please enlighten us simple minded folk, please.

I believe that you need to go to places that disagree with your point of view more often. Wherever you are going does not have a great handle of military matters. That being said, according to you, Iran has incredible weapons that no one knows about. Well, since Israel has better weapons overall, just imagine what we dont know abour their weaponry.

Iran has more people, and many are willing to die. I am pretty sure that Israel would be happy to help them achieve their goal of death.
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ACC
08-25-2006, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
LOL@ at you. Hope you enjoy your Zionist wet dream while it lasts :)
Please send me to where you get your information. I would be VERY interested in reading this stuff. More for entretainment value than anything esle.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 03:01 PM
I believe that you need to go to places that disagree with your point of view more often. Wherever you are going does not have a great handle of military matters. That being said, according to you, Iran has incredible weapons that no one knows about. Well, since Israel has better weapons overall, just imagine what we dont know abour their weaponry.
Better weapons does not mean victory. Hezbollah has proven that twice. Vietnam also exemplifies this.

Iran has more people, and many are willing to die. I am pretty sure that Israel would be happy to help them achieve their goal of death.
All soldiers are willing to die for what they believe in, even the IDF.

Please send me to where you get your information. I would be VERY interested in reading this stuff. More for entretainment value than anything esle.
I myself was entertained by your posts. Unfortunately I won't be able to return the favor since I prefer facts over jibberish. I'll post my "information" in an hour -- quite busy with work right now :)
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Ghazi
08-25-2006, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
LOL@ at you. Hope you enjoy your Zionist wet dream while it lasts :)
:sl:

Joker, No nation would dare do such a thing, what do you think would happen to isreal, trust me, even Jahil Muslims would bare arms against isreal if they did that, isreal is a puppet for the west's proxy war on islam.
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Geronimo
08-25-2006, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
That is a disadvantage for ISRAEL.

The countries between Iran and Israel will give Iran a green light to wipe Israel out.
HA HA HA HA. You think the Americans are gonna just let Iran fly over Iraq while we're there? Man you must be high
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 03:38 PM
HA HA HA HA. You think the Americans are gonna just let Iran fly over Iraq while we're there? Man you must be high
What are you smoking? LOL, when do you suppose there will be war?
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wilberhum
08-25-2006, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Of course not. When it comes to ME, America is used to failures.
Just think, 20 more failures and the US will know how the ME feeles. ;D
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Geronimo
08-25-2006, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
What are you smoking? LOL, when do you suppose there will be war?
How long do you think we will be in Iraq? :D
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 04:16 PM
How long do you think we will be in Iraq?
2 more years at most.

Just think, 20 more failures and the US will know how the ME feeles.
LOL, good one.
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ACC
08-25-2006, 07:40 PM
[QUOTE=I myself was entertained by your posts. Unfortunately I won't be able to return the favor since I prefer facts over jibberish. I'll post my "information" in an hour -- quite busy with work right now :)[/QUOTE]

I can honestly say you are the first person I have ever heard say that Iran would walk all over Israel in a war. I am eagerly awaiting what you have. I can also assure you that I will read it with an open mind.
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Trumble
08-25-2006, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
LOL, you really need military education. The only advantage Israel has are advanced weapons and planes. Go visit a military forum. Most would agree than Iran would defeat Israel in a ground war quite easilly.
I'm afraid its you that needs the education. Superior planes in adequate numbers means total air supremacy. Total air supremacy means any conventional "ground war" could have only one result. I look forward to seeing some links to "military forums" where anyone thinks otherwise.

As a point of information, you underestimate Israeli armour too; the Merkava is one of the best MBTs in the world . Go check the figures for Iraqi tanks killed versus American and British tanks killed in the first Gulf War and you'll get some idea how things might turn out.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:39 PM
Of course Iran couldn't win a conventional war against Israel, the U.S., the U.K., China, Russia, etc....their military capability just isn't on the same level.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:43 PM
The Iranian military is actually quite good and have some very modern equipment. It is actually a myth that the Iranians have outdated "primitive" equipment the only area where this is true is there Air force but even then it's not that bad. Iran actually operate top of the line modern technology from UAV's, Night vision/thermal vision equipment, H&K G3 assault rifles, bull pup assault rifles, Kilo class subs etc...

Iran has :

Kilo Class Russian Submarines
http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=588627
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/877.htm

F-14(American) Improved with Prussian technology
http://armoreddefense.com/v-web/gall...mcat_Iran_0004

Mig-29


F-4 Improved and upgraded

SU-25
http://armoreddefense.com/v-web/gall...u_25_Iran_0001

F-5 Improved and Upgraded
http://armoreddefense.com/v-web/gall..._Iran_0003.jpg

They also have :

- TOW missiles
- Phoenix missiles
- improved Hawk missiles
- Dragon (single warhead anti-tank)
- Harpoon Anti ship cruise missiles
- Hawk SAM
- Mavericks
- Sidewinders (quantity minimum 288 imported from America)
- Sparrows Missiles
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profil...sile/2420.html

Chinese M7 Ballistic Missiles

Chinese M11 Ballistic missiles

Raad-t (AT-3c with SACLOS guidance and tandem warhead):
http://warfare.ru/?catid=261&linkid=2202
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...sterx/raad.jpg

Iranian konkurs at-5 with 800mm armour penatration :
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/reuters037.htm

Toophan and Toophan-2:
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/milit...0526_2_n.shtml
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...rx/toophan.jpg

Iranian Super Dragon Anti-tank missiles (very powerful anti-armor warhead):
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...uperdragon.jpg

Iraian "Shahab Thaqeb" (French Crotale Copy)
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...erx/shahab.jpg
http://sinodefence.com/army/surfacetoairmissile/hq7.asp
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/crotale/


Also Iran has imported many weapons over the years from other countries. Iran has imported thousands of ballistic missiles and hundreds of SCUD-D missiles which have improved CEP and range :
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profil...sile/2420.html

Information about SCUD-C and Scud -D from janes :
http://www.janes.com/security/intern...ud010426.shtml

12 x kh-55 2500km range cruise missiles :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4361505.stm

18 x North Korean BM-25 2500km ballistic missiles :
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_fo...1229_1_n.shtml

Iran also imported 800 Steyr .50BMG Anti-Material sniper rifles:

http://www.iranmania.com/News/Articl...urrent+Affairs
http://in.news.yahoo.com/051228/137/61qpa.html

Imported close to 2000 Ballitic misiles (800 alone near the end of 1992 from Russia) :
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profil...sile/2420.html

Shahab-3D (most advanced medium range ballistic missiles in the world)

Misagh-1 (Modern Second Generation Shoulder Launched SAM)
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...x/misagh-1.jpg

Misagh-2 (Even more advanced SL-SAM Similar to SA-16 Igla-1)
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e2...70195_L600.jpg

Tor-M1 SAM :
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177539,00.html
http://www.warfare.ru/?catid=264&lin...deo=true&id=32

Iran also manufactures weapons such as:

-Modern tanks coated with ERA bricks and composite armor, Improved sights, fire while moving capability, Thermal/nigh vision, stabilized turrets,(Basically incorporating 'Chieftain' technology)
-Self propelled artillery systems
-UAV's, guided munitions,
-Cobra gunships,
-Mini submarines,
-H&K MP5 SMG,
-H&K(CETME) G3 assault rifles,
-Khayber bull pup assault rifles,
-Night vision equipment,
-Thermal Imaging equipment
-Tandem Warhead improved RPG's
-Bullet proof helmets and vests
-ballistic goggles
And much much more stuff (click on link for more information):
http://www.network54.com/Forum/39146...ection+is+done

By the way the stuff i have listed above is not even close to describing 50% of Iran.s full capability. This is why no country messes with Iran.

I do not know much about the Iranian warplanes, but so fair I know they have F14 Tomcats which they have greatly upgraded:
http://www.iiaf.net/aircraft/jetfighters/F14/f14.html

More:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n/airforce.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-equipment.htm
http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...nct_entry=true

From what the news says, Iran is going to buy F16s from Venezuela.

http://forums.spikedhumor.com/showth...2&page=1&pp=25
www.militaryphotos.net


Also note that Iran has the 8th largest military in the world. Israel has the 31st largest military.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:44 PM
Of course Iran couldn't win a conventional war against Israel, the U.S., the U.K., China, Russia, etc....their military capability just isn't on the same level.
This section of the forum has been plagued with opinion and baseless speculation. This is no place for cheerleading, is it?

Were you the one who claimed Israel will beat Hezbollah?? I would love to see a war with Israel. The Zionists need to die and let peace prevail again.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:44 PM
lol...would you like a list of American and Israeli military equipment?
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
This section of the forum has been plagued with opinion and baseless speculation. This is no place for cheerleading, is it?

Were you the one who claimed Israel will beat Hezbollah??
Who is cheerleading? I'm speaking in terms of military capability. As Trumble mentioned, air superiority is key. Iranian tanks could not stand up to American or Israeli tank divisions. It isn't cheerleading, it is simply an educated deduction.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:48 PM
Who is cheerleading? I'm speaking in terms of military capability. As Trumble mentioned, air superiority is key. Iranian tanks could not stand up to American or Israeli tank divisions. It isn't cheerleading, it is simply an educated deduction.
Yes, your "educated deduction" worked well in disrming Hezbollah :giggling:
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Yes, your "educated deduction" worked well in disrming Hezbollah :giggling:
Disarming Hezbollah? What does that have to do with anything?
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:52 PM
Disarming Hezbollah? What does that have to do with anything?
It means opinions based on military superiority has no value anymore.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
It means opinions based on military superiority has no value anymore.
Hezbollah is a militia inside a civilian population. Iran is a country, with a national military. Apples and oranges.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:56 PM
Hezbollah is a militia inside a civilian population. Iran is a country, with a national military. Apples and oranges.
Hezbollah = Katyusha rockets
Israel = F16s + tanks + thousands of troops.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 09:58 PM
LOL, i realized that some of the links I posted dont work since I copied and pasted. I'll correct this as soon as I can.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Hezbollah = Katyusha rockets
Israel = F16s + tanks + thousands of troops.
What is your point? A similar war occurred in the early 90's if you will remember. Iraq's conventional forces vs. U.S and U.K. forces....what happened there?
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 10:03 PM
What is your point? A similar war occurred in the early 90's if you will remember. Iraq's conventional forces vs. U.S and U.K. forces....what happened there?
My point is that Israel, despite being the mighty military power, lost to a 3000 man militia using Soviet rockets. This is the second time this has happened. Thus your assertion that Israel would win any war based on its equiment is illogical. You have to think more critically that that. The United States fought Iraq for years.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
My point is that Israel, despite being the mighty military power, lost to a 3000 man militia using Soviet rockets. This is the second time this has happened. Thus your assertion that Israel would win any war based on its equiment is illogical. You have to think more critically that that. The United States fought Iraq for years.
Sorry, but the Persian Gulf War did not last "years". As for Hezbollah "defeating" Isreal, I disagree with that statement. The primary goal of Israel was to weaken Hezbollah and end their control of southern Lebanon. It appears, if this international force does its job, this goal will have been achieved. Did Israel kill every last member of Hezbollah? Of course not. I do believe that the Israeli military was slightly embarrassed by many of their blunders in the initial stages of the conflict.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Sorry, but the Persian Gulf War did not last "years".
I wasn't talking about the Persian Gulf war. I was talking about the "Second Gulf War (aka. Iraq war)." Three years and ongoing....

As for Hezbollah "defeating" Isreal, I disagree with that statement. The primary goal of Israel was to weaken Hezbollah and end their control of southern Lebanon.
None of these objectives were met.

It appears, if this international force does its job, this goal will have been achieved. Did Israel kill every last member of Hezbollah? Of course not. I do believe that the Israeli military was slightly embarrassed by many of their blunders in the initial stages of the conflict.
The international force will be another failure.
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Keltoi
08-25-2006, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
I wasn't talking about the Persian Gulf war. I was talking about the "Second Gulf War (aka. Iraq war)." Three years and ongoing....



None of these objectives were met.



The international force will be another failure.

The Iraq War isn't a conventional war, it is an occupation with a growing secular insurgency.

I don't think anyone knows the full extent of the damage done to Hezbollah, since they aren't exactly forthcoming with such info. If I were you, I would hope that the international force is effective, otherwise there will be more death in Lebanon.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 10:58 PM
I don't think anyone knows the full extent of the damage done to Hezbollah, since they aren't exactly forthcoming with such info.
Will close to 300 rockets (more than ever) landing on Israel on the last day of war and over 200 per day on average, I doubt damage was significant :)
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ACC
08-25-2006, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Will close to 300 rockets (more than ever) landing on Israel on the last day of war and over 200 per day on average, I doubt damage was significant :)
You seem to be the biggets cheerleader here. I have absolutely bo doubt that Israel could wipe them off the map if they did not restrain themselves. You say hezbolah restrained itself...I say big deal. A few less cowardly suicide bombings and missile attacks on civilian populations.

If Israel did not restrain themselves, they could carpet bomb every city, while sending in all of their tanks, as well as shelling from the sea. If they did this with absolutely no regard for civilian populations, I can assure you that the leader of hezbolah would not know what hit him. Israel could wipe out every city.

But, as someone said earlier, this thread has turned into 'my dad can beat up your dad.' Feel free to respond. I will respond no more to this thread.
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QuranStudy
08-25-2006, 11:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ACC
You seem to be the biggets cheerleader here. I have absolutely bo doubt that Israel could wipe them off the map if they did not restrain themselves. You say hezbolah restrained itself...I say big deal. A few less cowardly suicide bombings and missile attacks on civilian populations.
Like I said before, this section of the thread has been plagued with opinions and baseless speculation. I am sure by the time Iran developes nuclear energy, Israel will need to face the risk of regime change.

If Israel did not restrain themselves, they could carpet bomb every city, while sending in all of their tanks, as well as shelling from the sea. If they did this with absolutely no regard for civilian populations, I can assure you that the leader of hezbolah would not know what hit him. Israel could wipe out every city.
Mass destruction does not equate to victory. Israel caused much more damage than Hezbollah and yet Hezbollah won (again).
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Trumble
08-26-2006, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
As for Hezbollah "defeating" Isreal, I disagree with that statement.
Whatever 'victory' Hezbollah may have achieved was political, not military. The only way Israel could (and would - don't kid yourselves) have won a purely military victory was by a full scale invasion of Lebanon. That fact that no such invasion took place was because, even to the Israelis, it was viewed as politically unacceptable. It had nothing to do with any military successes Hezbollah may or may not have had... although such successes may well have been the reason it was needed for Israel to 'win'.

As has been said, apples and oranges. The Lebanon conflict has no relevance whatsoever to any potential war between Iran and Israel.


format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Will close to 300 rockets (more than ever) landing on Israel on the last day of war and over 200 per day on average, I doubt damage was significant :)
So do I, except in propaganda terms. As a reference point the Soviets fired something like 2 million such rockets at Berlin. They might have done a bit of damage!
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 12:09 AM
War fare is no longer measured in terms of victory. If it ever was. We just have degrees of loss. The question is not who wins it is who is the least affected by the losses. Some countries can tolerate a billion dollars and a million lives lost and others will be devastated if they lost a thousand lives and a million dollars in damage. The victor is the one who can say it was worth the price.
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starfortress
08-26-2006, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Israel would 'wipe' Iran off the map with its hundreds of jericho III nukes. Iran would be no longer a nation if Israel chose to press a button.

lol,thats not going to happen,thats not a simple just like that to execute the button,how many country will dare to do the same action.

Israel could win over Iran,but believe me they will use a proxy tactic, try to make other nation like U.S,Britain to get involve with its agenda,or wait untill the bloody UN security council decision on Iran Nuke program not sided to Iran.Almost impossible for Israel to taking down Iran with her own hand,in fact the Hezbollah getting stronger to the lebanese,dont forget the Hezbollah group is the outside version to Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps of Iran.Anyway this is only my opinion.
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Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 01:56 AM
Salaam,

No matter how armed the Isrelais are,the more armed they are,the more fear they will have..

Every counter attack by armed forces like Hamas and Lebanese will casue them to fear even more.

The fear lies in their hearts and mind,like when Hitler subjugated and oppresed them,they all lostt faith and did not fight back but just surrendered to death.Where as here,under a longer periof of oppresion at the hand of the Isrealis,the Palestiain will always fight and we will alwyas support them..

Isnhallah,the fear they will carry to their graves.
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Keltoi
08-26-2006, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

No matter how armed the Isrelais are,the more armed they are,the more fear they will have..

Every counter attack by armed forces like Hamas and Lebanese will casue them to fear even more.

The fear lies in their hearts and mind,like when Hitler subjugated and oppresed them,they all lostt faith and did not fight back but just surrendered to death.Where as here,under a longer periof of oppresion at the hand of the Isrealis,the Palestiain will always fight and we will alwyas support them..

Isnhallah,the fear they will carry to their graves.
Perhaps I'm confused, but I don't see any correlation between the Holocaust and the situation between Israel and the Palestinians. Plus, I'm not sure why Israel being "afraid" is supposedly a victory for Hamas or Hezbollah. Nations and people are more dangerous when they are afraid.
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Trumble
08-26-2006, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
The fear lies in their hearts and mind,like when Hitler subjugated and oppresed them,they all lostt faith and did not fight back but just surrendered to death.Where as here,under a longer periof of oppresion at the hand of the Isrealis,the Palestiain will always fight and we will alwyas support them.
Ah, so the cowardly Jews just meekly surrendered while the brave, heroic Palestinians will always fight?

The circumstances were, and are, completely different. Much as many here like to pretend otherwise, the oppression of the Palestinians (and there certainly has been some) by Israel is peanuts compared to what the Nazis did to the Jews and others. It's peanuts compared to what is happening in Darfur, come to that - but still the silence is deafening. Don't you get that oppression (which has primarily been economic rather than anything else) is in a rather different league to mass extermination? Sorry, I don't see any Palestinians in Israeli gas chambers.
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