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evangel
08-25-2006, 12:35 PM
Can you remember the people who have shared the gospel with you?



Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
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Skillganon
08-25-2006, 01:35 PM
I live in England and I never heard any christian sharing the Gospel. Well, actually I really don't know if I have met any christian.
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AvarAllahNoor
08-25-2006, 01:36 PM
Yes, the bible study people that would come over to my house
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glo
08-25-2006, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I live in England and I never heard any christian sharing the Gospel. Well, actually I really don't know if I have met any christian.
You have never met any Christians?
You need to get out more! :giggling:

(Sorry, just having on of those moments. It will pass, I'm sure ... :uuh: )

Peace.
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 04:15 PM
Oddly enough during my Christian years, only in semi formal settings on Sundays and Wednesdays. During my Years i called myself Buddhist (but more like agnostic) it was very frequent, to the point of being obnoxious. Now I still have many Christian friends, but they all have come to the realization that I have heard the gospel many times, but that I only find the Qur'an to be true. In Terms of Gospel meaning "Good News" I share it daily and talk about it every chance I can, The true "Good News" is the Qur'an. Those that do not believe the Word of God(swt) as given to us in his "Good News" (Qur'an) will loose much.
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habiibti
08-25-2006, 04:20 PM
yeah,da usual sunday evening jehovah group.and i usually end up preaching to them.
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Fishman
08-25-2006, 04:24 PM
:sl:
Once this guy came into our school and started distributing Bibles. Under that logic, I should be allowed to invite Abu Jafar al-Hanbali to school! But they probably won't let him come.
:w:
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glo
08-25-2006, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Once this guy came into our school and started distributing Bibles. Under that logic, I should be allowed to invite Abu Jafar al-Hanbali to school! But they probably won't let him come.
:w:
State schools in Britain are required to provide daily what's called 'collective worship'. It is specified that it must be 'wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character.' The term broadly is important, because in practical terms it often means discussing general social, moral and ethical issues which apply to and govern people of all religions or none.

To some extent it is up to the school leadership and governors to decide at what level collective worship is to be pitched.
It would be more than appropriate to invite speakers from other religions, especially of those represented in the local community and pupils.

Have you tried to suggest this, Fishman?

Peace.
Reply

dougmusr
08-25-2006, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Oddly enough during my Christian years, only in semi formal settings on Sundays and Wednesdays. During my Years i called myself Buddhist (but more like agnostic) it was very frequent, to the point of being obnoxious. Now I still have many Christian friends, but they all have come to the realization that I have heard the gospel many times, but that I only find the Qur'an to be true. In Terms of Gospel meaning "Good News" I share it daily and talk about it every chance I can, The true "Good News" is the Qur'an. Those that do not believe the Word of God(swt) as given to us in his "Good News" (Qur'an) will loose much.
What do you interpret the Good News of the Quran to be, that is compared to the Books of other religions?
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
What do you interpret the Good News of the Quran to be, that is compared to the Books of other religions?
In my opinion the purpose of all scripture is to bring the Word of God(SWT) to mankind. The Qur'an is the true scripture. In that word He(swt) tells us in detail what is expected of us and what rewards He(swt) has made for us. Is that not Guttspeil, Godtspel, Gospel, Good word?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-25-2006, 10:23 PM
I dont think ive ever had a conversation with a christian like that. Not even my friends lol.
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
08-25-2006, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
I live in England and I never heard any christian sharing the Gospel. Well, actually I really don't know if I have met any christian.
u havent ever met a christian.. :? really? ^o)
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dougmusr
08-25-2006, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
In my opinion the purpose of all scripture is to bring the Word of God(SWT) to mankind. The Qur'an is the true scripture. In that word He(swt) tells us in detail what is expected of us and what rewards He(swt) has made for us. Is that not Guttspeil, Godtspel, Gospel, Good word?
If the Quran was God's first revelation to mankind, I would be tempted to agree. However, it was not as Islam readily admits. There is a difference between saying it is "Good News" and saying it is "The Good News". Jesus came to earth to share "The Gospel" or "The Good News". So the best that the Quran can claim is that it contains "The Good News" originally shared by Jesus. What specifically was "The Good News" shared by Jesus that so offended the Jews at the time? It obvioulsy didn't seem like Good News to them.
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
If the Quran was God's first revelation to mankind, I would be tempted to agree. However, it was not as Islam readily admits. There is a difference between saying it is "Good News" and saying it is "The Good News". Jesus came to earth to share "The Gospel" or "The Good News". So the best that the Quran can claim is that it contains "The Good News" originally shared by Jesus. What specifically was "The Good News" shared by Jesus that so offended the Jews at the time? It obvioulsy didn't seem like Good News to them.
Actually we would say that the words in the Qur'an were the first revelations to mankind. they are the same words that were revealed to Adam, Moses, Abraham , Noah, Jesus and all of the other Prophets. It is only through the actions of man that they did not last in their original form and Allah(swt) in his mercy revealed them for the final time to Muhammad.
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dougmusr
08-25-2006, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Actually we would say that the words in the Qur'an were the first revelations to mankind. they are the same words that were revealed to Adam, Moses, Abraham , Noah, Jesus and all of the other Prophets. It is only through the actions of man that they did not last in their original form and Allah(swt) in his mercy revealed them for the final time to Muhammad.
If Abraham received the Quran, and Jesus received the Quran, then why does the Quran make a distinction between the Torah and the Gospel in their original form, and say that Jesus was given the Gospel instead of the Quran?
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
If Abraham received the Quran, and Jesus received the Quran, then why does the Quran make a distinction between the Torah and the Gospel in their original form, and say that Jesus was given the Gospel instead of the Quran?
The Gospel written in the Bible is not what was Given to Jesus. None of Jesus's teahings appear to have remained intact. What we see in the Gospels are the words of people that are stating what they believe Jesus said. Actually nearly all of the Gospel are just recitations of events about Jesus and no mention of any revelation from God(swt). Gods(swt) word for the most part is not even mentioned in the Gospels.
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Hajar
08-25-2006, 11:44 PM
I went to a catholic school for 8 years...eventhough im a born muslim. I always respect their believes..... but I never had the feelling that what they believe is true, Islam is. We even discused the difference between Islam and Christianity....
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dougmusr
08-26-2006, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Gospel written in the Bible is not what was Given to Jesus. None of Jesus's teahings appear to have remained intact. What we see in the Gospels are the words of people that are stating what they believe Jesus said. Actually nearly all of the Gospel are just recitations of events about Jesus and no mention of any revelation from God(swt). Gods(swt) word for the most part is not even mentioned in the Gospels.
Let me see if I understand. The Quran says Jesus was given the Gospel. Muslims believe in the Gospel. Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct?
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Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 01:27 AM
Salaam,

Well i was appreoached once to listen to the Good news..

She talked and talked and talked and so on....but i just sked her,how much does she know of her faith,she says load, and that she found salvation..

So i told her to read Mark 16,she read it and i asked her to prove her faith..

Of course to be put short,i was called an evil person ...well i got a laugh that day..LOL
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Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Let me see if I understand. The Quran says Jesus was given the Gospel. Muslims believe in the Gospel. Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct?

Salaam,

Prohet Jesus as was given teh gospel....yes

Muslim beleive in the 5 Holy Books....given by Allah unto th Propehts,these Books are alwyas in the language of that Prophet.

Muslim know what is in all the Holy Books..that is to worship Allah and sya that there is no GOD but Allah.

What do you mena no record of it?
the current bible that you hold dear,hold smidgens of truth,like some verses..

SAY I AM NOT GOOD BUT GOD
I BY MYSELF CAN DO NOTHING WIOHTOU GOD
WORSHIP THE ONE GOD..
GOD IS ONE....

Also we beleive in the gospel accoordign to Propeht Jesus as..not according to some common man...
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Let me see if I understand. The Quran says Jesus was given the Gospel. Muslims believe in the Gospel. Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct?
Jesus was given the Gospel. (the Injeel, not what is called the Gospel now)

Muslims believe in the Gospel (The injeel, the word of God(swt)

Muslims have no idea what the actual Gospel is because they believe there is no record of it. Would this be correct? False, We believe it is the same truth that is in the Qur'an. The record we have is the Qur'an tells us I'sa was given it. What people often quote as the Gospel, is not the Injeel that was given to I'sa. The Injeel was essentialy the same as the Qur'an.

We are told to Believe in the Torah, The zaboor , the Injeel and the Qur'an. However that means what they originaly were and not what they have become.

On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah. So that means for a Christian to say they believe in the Bible would be an admission that the Torah changed before it was included in the Bible. If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False, If the Qur'an is true the Bible and the Torah are False (as they stand today)

The Torah, Zabbor, Injeel and the Qur'an should all be stating the same words from God(swt). Today they don't.

If the Qur'an is true as we believe, that means the Torah and the Bible changed.(as they are written today)

If the Bible (as it is written today) is true that means the Torah and the Qur'an are False

If the Torah (as it is written today) is true the Bible and the Qur'an are false.

I personaly have seen sufficient proof to justify my belief that the Qur'an is the True word of God(swt)
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dougmusr
08-26-2006, 02:22 AM
I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?
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duskiness
08-26-2006, 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah. So that means for a Christian to say they believe in the Bible would be an admission that the Torah changed before it was included in the Bible. If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False, If the Qur'an is true the Bible and the Torah are False (as they stand today)
(...)
If the Bible (as it is written today) is true that means the Torah and the Qur'an are False
i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?

The Christian claim the Bible is true. The Torah as used by the Jews and they do have copies that go back to before Christ has considerable differences in the way it is written in the Bible. They should be identical. But they are not.

Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???

If the Torah as the Jews have it is true then the Torah (first 5 books) as written in the bible are false

If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.

there is no Islamic Torah. We believe the Torah as originaly written no longer exists.

Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

True, but they are not the same. The first 5 books have little resemblance to the Jewish Torah, which is supposed to be the source of the first 5 Books
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?
I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

That is only stated in what are called the Gospel today. We do not believe those are the words of God(swt)

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

They is no distinction,

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.


40:15. Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- S P C

15:29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S P C


17:85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Yusuf Ali's Quran TranslationThere are many more
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

That is only stated in what are called the Gospel today. We do not believe those are the words of God(swt)

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

They is no distinction,

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.


40:15. Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- S P C

15:29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S P C


17:85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

Yusuf Ali's Quran TranslationThere are many more
I need to clarify my comment above about there is no distiction about JesusAS). I was thinking in terms of equality among the Prophets. But, there is a distinction about Jesus(as)

43:61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. S P C
43:62. Let not the Evil One hinder you: for he is to you an enemy avowed. S P
43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. S P
C

43:64. "For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord: so worship ye Him: this is a Straight Way." S P C
43:65. But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement: then woe to the wrong-doers, from the Penalty of a Grievous Day! S P
43:66. Do they only wait for the Hour - that it should come on them all of a sudden, while they perceive not? S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation
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Zulkiflim
08-26-2006, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
I just can't understand why God would go through the trouble to put descriptions of the uniqness of Jesus which clearly set Him apart from other prophets, and yet when I inquire about the meaning the responses I get usually minimize the significance of the claim.

Jesus preached the Gospel or Good News. I have to assume that there was something unique about His message or the Quran would not have made the distinction. In fact, God would have indicated Jesus preached the Quran, especially since Muslims believe it preexisted the Torah and Gospel.

Jesus was the Messiah. There has to be some reason why the Quran made this claim. Now if Messiah means annointed, and Saul, David, Solomon, pillars, and posts were annointed, then there would be no reason to include this distinction about Jesus.

Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit. I searched the Quran for Holy Spirit. I think I only found one other reference to it, and it was not applied to a prophet. Why did God feel it was important to make this distinction?
Salaam,

The Uniqueness of Prophet Jesus as birth is nothing in Allah sight.

In the Quran it is written..

Jesus was born oa woman but Allah siad BE and Adam was...

Jesus has parentage,Adam had none..
Which is a gretater miracle?

As for other distinction,those are in your own mind not in Allah or muslims.

As Prophet Jesus himself said,,BY MYSELF I CAN DO NOTHING >.

So all Prophets atribute their strength and miracle DUE to Allah not by themselves..

As for the WORD of Allah,in some cases it is refered to Gabriel and not Allah..

Angels are subservient to ALLAh and always venerate HIM and only HIM..
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snakelegs
08-26-2006, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by duskiness
i got lost here....
Why Bible and Torah contradict each other if Torah is a part of Bible?
what is the difference between "First Five Books of the Bible" and "the first five books of the bible"?
Why do you say that "If the Torah [ = first five books] is true the first five books are false"???
If you mean by "The Torah" the "islamic Torah" you are twisting meaning of this word.
Torah is first 5 book of Bible. Simple.

I just don't get it....
n.
welcome back, duskiness!
the jewish bible is what the christians call "the old testament"
jews do not believe the "new testament"
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manaal
08-26-2006, 07:18 AM
Been Muslim all ny life but was educated in 2 catholic convent schools. So yeah, every morning and afternoon over the P.A. we hear the gospel being read along with the hail marys and our fathers...............
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evangel
08-26-2006, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
On a smaller scale the same thing happened earlier The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible, but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah.
I've been researching this and I can't find any differences, could you show me where they are.

1 Samuel 17:45
Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.
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dougmusr
08-26-2006, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by manaal
Been Muslim all ny life but was educated in 2 catholic convent schools. So yeah, every morning and afternoon over the P.A. we hear the gospel being read along with the hail marys and our fathers...............
I would surmise by your comment that you felt the Gospel you heard over the P.A was false. That means you must know the true Gospel. Please share it with us.
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Woodrow
08-26-2006, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by evangel
I've been researching this and I can't find any differences, could you show me where they are.

1 Samuel 17:45
Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword and with a spear and with a javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.
Way back when I was Christian I had many Jewish friends point out how much different the 5 books were from the torah. Let me see if I can find a Torah on line.



Now getting back to the Hebrew Torah, Which is what the Jews follow.

I'll begin with the first word in Genesis: BERESHET

Bereshet is translated, "In the beginning", but when adding the meanings of the individual letters the translation comes out more like this. "In the beginning of the house and inheritance, the only one, of Shaddai (the self sufficient) YHVH it is finished (and good).

As I said there are many differences, I'm getting my sources from Rabbi's. To put in all the differences will take a long time.
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Jayda
08-26-2006, 06:51 PM
...i think it is more important to live the gospel than to just talk about it to other people...
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Chuck
08-26-2006, 09:30 PM
Can you remember everyone who has shared the Gospel with you?
Something seems wrong this question. My mem is not that good remember everyone who has shared Gospel with me.
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glo
08-26-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Something seems wrong this question. My mem is not that good remember everyone who has shared Gospel with me.
Actually, I agree with you.

I couldn't possibly make a list of all the people I have discussed and shared the Gospel with.

peace.
Reply

duskiness
08-27-2006, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let me see if I can find a Torah on line.
here

Originally Posted by Woodrow
Now getting back to the Hebrew Torah, Which is what the Jews follow.
I'll begin with the first word in Genesis: BERESHET

Bereshet is translated, "In the beginning", but when adding the meanings of the individual letters the translation comes out more like this. "In the beginning of the house and inheritance, the only one, of Shaddai (the self sufficient) YHVH it is finished (and good).
or maybe:
1 IN THE beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth.
(source above..)
to compare with "christian" Bible:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Woodrow - jewish Torah and first 5 book of christian Bible are/is the same thing.
To‧rah  /ˈtoʊrə, ˈtɔrə; Seph. Heb. toʊˈrɑ; Ashk. Heb. ˈtoʊrə, ˈtɔɪrə/
–noun (sometimes lowercase)
1. the Pentateuch, being the first of the three Jewish divisions of the Old Testament. Compare Tanach.
Pen‧ta‧teuch  /ˈpɛntəˌtuk, -ˌtyuk/
–noun
the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
..still the same...

Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Torah is the same as the First Five Books of the Bible,
-that's right
Originally Posted by Woodrow
but, the first five books of the bible differ considerably from the Torah.
are you saying that "Torah differ from Torah"?? Torah is Torah ;)
Originally Posted by Woodrow
If the Torah is true the first five books are false. If the Bible is true the Torah is False
no. they are the same thing (...i keep repeatnig my self today ;) ) Bible is true, and Torah is just part of it.
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Christian claim the Bible is true. The Torah as used by the Jews and they do have copies that go back to before Christ has considerable differences in the way it is written in the Bible. They should be identical. But they are not.
Jew and Christian use the same Torah/Pentateuch. Different translations (Jew probably don't need translation...)
Originally Posted by Woodrow
If the Torah as the Jews have it is true then the Torah (first 5 books) as written in the bible are false
they are both true :D
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The first 5 books have little resemblance to the Jewish Torah, which is supposed to be the source of the first 5 Books
Ok. so Muslim belive that there were other 5 books they call "Torah"?
Jew and Christian don't believe it. There is only one Torah, and no other "pre-Torah". (and again Jewish Torah = 5 first book in christian Bible)
Originally Posted by Woodrow
there is no Islamic Torah. We believe the Torah as originaly written no longer exists.
exactly. so Muslim are using term "Torah" in differnt meaning nonmuslim use it...
Originally Posted by snakelegs
welcome back, duskiness!
the jewish bible is what the christians call "the old testament"
jews do not believe the "new testament"
hehe...Snakelegs, you really take me for an ignorant ;) i probably didn't make myself clear.
thanks for welcome :D

ps: islamic or Islamic, jewish or Jewish, christian or Christian :?
n.
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Woodrow
08-27-2006, 09:02 AM
One Problem is that most Christians I find use the JPS Hebrew Torah as being the Standard Torah for the Jews. The JPS was the first five Books of the KJV translated into Hebrew and now that translation is often used as the Hebrew Torah to translate back into English. Naturaly it will be nearly identacl al to the KJV as the KJV was the source.

Sadly I do not know sufficient Hebrew to present what I am trying to say from the view point of the Hebrew Torah and what the Bible translation is. If you wish to find more to either disput me or for your own satisfaction, a Rabbi would be the best source.

I had the differences pointed out to me by Rabbis when I was a Christian trying to discuss the Bible with Jewish friends. Hebrew like Arabic has no exact English Equivalents and the most accurate english translations will come from Hebrew Scholars.
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dougmusr
08-27-2006, 02:05 PM
I had the differences pointed out to me by Rabbis when I was a Christian trying to discuss the Bible with Jewish friends. Hebrew like Arabic has no exact English Equivalents and the most accurate english translations will come from Hebrew Scholars.
What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-27-2006, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

I think he means he converted...:? :giggling:
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Jayda
08-27-2006, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?
Maybe he means he isn't one now...?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-27-2006, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
Maybe he means he isn't one now...?
lol..yea..
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
What do you mean when you say you were once a Christian?

.
It means I reverted to Islam in March of 2005


Christianity introduced me to Jesus(as) and Islam Taught me to love him in the Truth. I loved Jesus(as) as A Christian and still do. But it was in Islam that I was truly Reborn. I love Jesus(as) with truth and no longer worship him from error.

EDIT: I did not go directly from Christianity to Islam, I searched for the truth. I was born and Raised Christian, was very devout for over 20 years, then started seeing the Errors in the Bible. I then felt if Christianity was false all religions probaly were. For the next 40 years I called my self a Buddhist but was actually more agnostic. Finaly last year I experienced a rebirth said the Shahadah to Allah(swt) and was reborn as the Muslim I was first born as.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 02:38 AM
Nope ... nobody ever preach Christianity or read gospel to me ... because it's illegal to preach other religions to Muslims in Malaysia.
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Nope ... nobody ever preach Christianity or read gospel to me ... because it's illegal to preach other religions to Muslims in Malaysia.
Sometimes I think it would be a good Idea if they were allowed to openly preach to Muslims. Here in the US very many Muslims are reverts from Christianity and many of them reverted to Islam when they began preaching Christianity to Muslims.

From my observations Christians trying to convert Muslims are more likely to become Muslims then for the Muslims to convert. But that is just my limited personal experience.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Sometimes I think it would be a good Idea if they were allowed to openly preach to Muslims. Here in the US very many Muslims are reverts from Christianity and many of them reverted to Islam when they began preaching Christianity to Muslims.

From my observations Christians trying to convert Muslims are more likely to become Muslims then for the Muslims to convert. But that is just my limited personal experience.
I have no problem with it.... BUT GREAT MAJORITY of Muslims support to illegalize propagation of any religions among Muslim (any religions include Shia, Qadiani too)
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dougmusr
08-28-2006, 04:15 AM
EDIT: I did not go directly from Christianity to Islam, I searched for the truth. I was born and Raised Christian, was very devout for over 20 years, then started seeing the Errors in the Bible. I then felt if Christianity was false all religions probaly were. For the next 40 years I called my self a Buddhist but was actually more agnostic. Finaly last year I experienced a rebirth said the Shahadah to Allah(swt) and was reborn as the Muslim I was first born as.
The reason why I asked the question is I wanted to know if you converted to Christianity or were raised in it. I believe that a person is not born a Christian, or a Muslim for that matter. Both must be a conversion. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus:

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.". Pardon my ignorance, but I suspect the Shahadah is the declaration that "there is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is His Messenger". Before you became a Muslim, did you ever specifically ask Christ to be your Lord and Savior, or did you just assume it was so because you were raised in it?
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dougmusr
08-28-2006, 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Nope ... nobody ever preach Christianity or read gospel to me ... because it's illegal to preach other religions to Muslims in Malaysia.
In Malaysia, what would happen to a Muslim that converted to Christianity?
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
In Malaysia, what would happen to a Muslim that converted to Christianity?
A Muslim who wants to convert to other religion, has to obtain an order from Shariah Court in order to leave Islam. After being examined and satisfied with apostacy of the Muslim, the Shariah court will give an order announcing the person to be no longer a Muslim.

But the main opposition for ex-Muslims to be declared as Christian, Hindu etc. comes from the Muslim community ... not from the authority....

So, presently if a Muslim convert to other religion ... he/she will be disowned by the family, relatives, community etc. Usually they will migrate to other cities or states.... where people dont know their previous religious background.

Ex-Muslims also would loose their 'Malay' status, because under Malaysian Constitution only Muslims can be Malays.....
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dougmusr
08-28-2006, 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
A Muslim who wants to convert to other religion, has to obtain an order from Shariah Court in order to leave Islam. After being examined and satisfied with apostacy of the Muslim, the Shariah court will give an order announcing the person to be no longer a Muslim.

But the main opposition for ex-Muslims to be declared as Christian, Hindu etc. comes from the Muslim community ... not from the authority....

So, presently if a Muslim convert to other religion ... he/she will be disowned by the family, relatives, community etc. Usually they will migrate to other cities or states.... where people dont know their previous religious background.

Ex-Muslims also would loose their 'Malay' status, because under Malaysian Constitution only Muslims can be Malays.....
Perhaps that's why Christ said:

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 "and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Perhaps that's why Christ said:

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 "and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
I dont think Jesus said that!!! Sorry ... my heart is CLOSED for your evangelistic movement here!!!:okay:
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 04:50 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
The reason why I asked the question is I wanted to know if you converted to Christianity or were raised in it. I believe that a person is not born a Christian, or a Muslim for that matter. Both must be a conversion. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus:

Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.". Pardon my ignorance, but I suspect the Shahadah is the declaration that "there is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is His Messenger". Before you became a Muslim, did you ever specifically ask Christ to be your Lord and Savior, or did you just assume it was so because you were raised in it?
I had given my life to Jesus(as) and felt as if he was my personal friend and Savior. I can recall falling down in prayer and begging him to save me. Most of my prayers were prayers of gratitude for him coming into my heart. I had spent much time trying to bring people into the love and salvation of Jesus(as) I did lead some to the cross and now I regret for having led them astray.

It was in my Early twenties that I began to see some errors with the Bible. Initialy it was when I was speaking with jews and then learned how much different the first 5 books of the Bible where form the Torah when interpreted by a knowledgable Rabbi. Later I began to see the paradox of so many Bible versions and how different the messages were in each. That was when I became essentialy agnostic.

My reversion to Islam did not come as a result of any persons influence. At the time I had very little contact with any Muslims. I never had a Muslim ask me to become Muslim. Admiditaly I had a very good scholastic knowledge of Islam, but I believed the Qur'an was just a poor explanation of the Bible and of no religious significance. I did and still have a Qur'an, but I used it simply as a guide to understanding the Arabic Language.

My revision came very fast and almost instantly. A few days before saying the Shahadah I was reading the Qur'an to brush up on my Arabic. At some point I realised I was not reading it, I was feeling and understanding it, not from a scholastic view, but from the Love of Allah(SWT) I was over whelmed with a feeling of peace love and acceptance of God(SWT) I became fully aware of his justice, his infinite mercy and his most forgiving of all. I knew then that Allah(SWT) was my Savior and that Jesus(AS) like Muhammad9PBUH) was a beloved messenger. I said the Shahadah to Allah then and there. I did not even know there were any Mosques in Texas. I did not even know any Muslims in the county I lived in at that time. I went to the store the next day and met a man at the store after a short Conversation I discovered he was Muslim and told me about the Mosque in Tyler. My car was out of order. He offered to bring me to Jummah on Friday. I did so and Just before Jummah I repeated the Shahadh before the Imaan and my brothers.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Initialy it was when I was speaking with jews and then learned how much different the first 5 books of the Bible where form the Torah when interpreted by a knowledgable Rabbi.
A Jew told me that, OT in the Bible is not Torah!

Originally Posted by Woodrow
I never had a Muslim ask me to become Muslim.
And I never ask any Non Muslim to be a Muslim.
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syilla
08-28-2006, 05:17 AM
:sl:

asking people to be a muslim is a different thing..

telling the people...how great islam is...is another thing.

:w:
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
:sl:

asking people to be a muslim is a different thing..

telling the people...how great islam is...is another thing.

:w:
True, letting them know what it is and making their own choice is the best way. we can not decide for them.
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dougmusr
08-28-2006, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
True, letting them know what it is and making their own choice is the best way. we can not decide for them.
That's evangelism. Share the truth and let God work.
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
That's evangelism. Share the truth and let God work.
I agree with that. It would be nice if some (not all) so called evangelists would follow that simple rule. Would show true concern and not be an excuse for arguement. We can all disagree, but we can disagree with respect and state what we believe without demeaning or insulting each other. Examples send a louder message than loudspeakers do.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I agree with that. It would be nice if some (not all) so called evangelists would follow that simple rule. Would show true concern and not be an excuse for arguement. We can all disagree, but we can disagree with respect and state what we believe without demeaning or insulting each other. Examples send a louder message than loudspeakers do.
Can someone elaborate 'evangelism'? If Muslim using the same method would it be called 'koranism'?:?
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Woodrow
08-28-2006, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Can someone elaborate 'evangelism'? If Muslim using the same method would it be called 'koranism'?:?
Evangelism is often misused. As many people use it it comes to be a forcible spread of ones religious beliefs through fear and intimidation. Dougmusr stated that to him Evangelism would be to just be saying the truth and let that in itself be sufficient. I can agree with him that is the way it should be.

If the word evangelism were properly used and understood it would apply to any person who is trying to spread the truth. Because the word is often misused it is best for us Muslims to just stick with what we call Da'wah. Evangelism should be Da'wah, but often the meaning comes out to be much different and some meanings can be offensive.
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syilla
08-28-2006, 06:14 AM
jazakallah khayr for the information brother woodrow...
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glo
08-28-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Can someone elaborate 'evangelism'? If Muslim using the same method would it be called 'koranism'?:?
This is what I found:
Evangelism is the proclaiming of the Christian Gospel or, by extension, any other form of preaching or proselytizing.[...]The word evangelist comes from the Koine Greek word ευαγγελιον (transcribed as "euangelion") via Latin "Evangelium", as used in the canonic titles of the four Gospels, and thus The Evangelists are the authors of the four Gospels -- traditionally known as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (also known as the Four Evangelists). The Greek word ευαγγελιον originally meant a reward for good news given to the messenger (ευ = "good", αγγελλω = "I bring a message"; the word angel is of the same root) and later "good news". The latter term gives rise to the word "Gospel".(wikipedia)
is proclaiming the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ to the lost. Evangelism is extremely important for this is God's means of bringing the saving gospel of Jesus Christ to lost sinners. Note the emphasis placed upon this by Jesus Himself as He closed out His earthly ministry: Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:46-48; Acts 1:8. Note also the words of Paul in this regard: Rom 10:13-17; 2 Cor 5:18-20.
(www.calvarychapel.com/redbarn/terms.htm)
Zealous preaching and dissemination of the gospel, as through missionary work.(www.dictionary.com)
In a more secular sense, evangelism is also used for any area of interest a person may feel strongly about, wanting to share it with people around them.
For example, I have a friend who is a 'evangelical cyclist' - his passion for cycling and all the benefits invloved with it is so great, that he never tires of telling people about it! lol

Actually, that reflects my personal stand on evangelising. If you love something so much, and are convinced of it's truth and benefits so much - don't you want to share it with others? That's certainly why I love to talk about my faith and how it affects my life.
I know Muslims do too, because I see it in this forum. :)

Peace.
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Evangelism is often misused. As many people use it it comes to be a forcible spread of ones religious beliefs through fear and intimidation. Dougmusr stated that to him Evangelism would be to just be saying the truth and let that in itself be sufficient. I can agree with him that is the way it should be.

If the word evangelism were properly used and understood it would apply to any person who is trying to spread the truth. Because the word is often misused it is best for us Muslims to just stick with what we call Da'wah. Evangelism should be Da'wah, but often the meaning comes out to be much different and some meanings can be offensive.
Thanks for the info....
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north_malaysian
08-28-2006, 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by glo
This is what I found:




In a more secular sense, evangelism is also used for any area of interest a person may feel strongly about, wanting to share it with people around them.
For example, I have a friend who is a 'evangelical cyclist' - his passion for cycling and all the benefits invloved with it is so great, that he never tires of telling people about it! lol

Actually, that reflects my personal stand on evangelising. If you love something so much, and are convinced of it's truth and benefits so much - don't you want to share it with others? That's certainly why I love to talk about my faith and how it affects my life.
I know Muslims do too, because I see it in this forum. :)

Peace.
Thanks for the info.
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