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Soldier2000
08-25-2006, 05:13 PM
how do you differentiate between what is real and what is not?

have you ever had a dream that was so real? what if you were unable to wake from that dream, how can you differentiate between the real world and the dreamworld?

has any one heard of Descartes?

When he said "I think therefore i am" what does he mean? is any one familiar with his work?
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Muezzin
08-25-2006, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
how do you differentiate between what is real and what is not?

have you ever had a dream that was so real? what if you were unable to wake from that dream, how can you differentiate between the real world and the dreamworld?
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?

:p

has any one heard of Descartes?
Yep.

When he said "I think therefore i am" what does he mean? is any one familiar with his work?
I've heard of him and Kant and Baudillard, but I've never actually read any of their work yet. I'm less than a novice when it comes to philosophy I'm afraid. I can't even pronoune Nietsche.

However, I'm sure there are others on this forum with the necessary expertise.
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- Qatada -
08-25-2006, 05:22 PM
:salamext:


I don't think you should go into studying philosophy brother. I've heard in lectures (especially by Yasir Qadhi) that studying philosophy is makrooh. Alot of people have gone into studying it, and then it affects their beliefs in Allaah Almighty, and they don't even know whether they exist or not.

Even some of the most knowledgable from among the muslims fell into this trap, and they have mentioned that it does have really bad consequences..


A famous example is Imam Ghazali:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=philosophy


Allaah Almighty knows best.


:wasalamex
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umm-sulaim
08-25-2006, 05:25 PM
His french right? my french teacher mentioned this but i don't remember his name...

i think therefore i am... maybe he means you are what you think you are....depending on how you see yourself is the way you are,
so perhaps if you see yourself as a failure, you maybe a failure, maybe not literally but internally, if you know waht i mean...
and vice versa...

deep stuff, hhmm.... one of them things that there isn't a right answer to i guess...we'd have to have known what he meant,
we can only interpret it according to or views i guess...

but bro is right about not studying philosophy....to many questions...until they question about who created the earth like our prophet alayhi salaatu wassalam said

wassalaam
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Trumble
08-25-2006, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
has any one heard of Descartes?

When he said "I think therefore i am" what does he mean? is any one familiar with his work?
Yes. That comes from his Meditations, in which his primary project was to establish an undisputable foundation upon which all knowledge could be built - including his (attempted) proof of the existence of God - he was a devout Catholic.

Very briefly he discarded, in theory at least, all knowledge of which he could not be certain. To do this he suggested the possibility of an 'evil demon' (although it is essential to remember that that is a purely hypothetical philosophical device, not an actual entity) that had the capability to deceive anybody about anything. With one exception, cogito ergo sum, I think therefore I exist. The very fact that thought takes place, whatever deception the 'demon' might come up with, must mean that the thinker exists. The statement is self-confirming, in that both "I think" and "I exist" have the unusual property that to be formulated at all, they must be true. Think about it!:)


format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

I've heard in lectures (especially by Yasir Qadhi) that studying philosophy is haraam. Alot of people have gone into studying it, and then it affects their beliefs in Allaah Almighty, and they don't even know whether they exist or not.

Even some of the most knowledgable from among the muslims fell into this trap, and they have mentioned that it does have really bad consequences..

I can't believe that studying philosophy is haraam. There have been a great many renowned muslim philosophers; indeed it was the Islamic world that kept the discipline alive for much of what was the Dark Ages and early Medieval periods in the West. What sort of religious faith is so feeble that it can be shaken by studying a little philosophy?
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I don't think you should go into studying philosophy brother. I've heard in lectures (especially by Yasir Qadhi) that studying philosophy is makrooh. Alot of people have gone into studying it, and then it affects their beliefs in Allaah Almighty, and they don't even know whether they exist or not.

Even some of the most knowledgable from among the muslims fell into this trap, and they have mentioned that it does have really bad consequences..


A famous example is Imam Ghazali:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=philosophy


Allaah Almighty knows best.


:wasalamex
I don't think you should go into studying philosophy brother.
To some extent I disagree with that statement. Paradoxoly that statement is a philosophy itself. I think we should understand the reason why we study it and know what it is we are studying. If we are seeking to find a reason not to need Allah(swt) then it is wrong. If we are studying to learn more about Allah(swt) then that is appropriate. By definition the Sunnah and the Hadeeth are philosophies and I believe we can agree those should be studied.


Also what we believe to be the way we should live is our own personal philosophy and we should always study our selves and understand what we as individuals believe and why we believe what we do.

I think the statement above would be better if modified to read.

I don't think you should go into studying non-beneficial philosophy brother.
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Safa
08-25-2006, 06:06 PM
He didn't actually say that it was haraam. He's studied philosophy before himself.

:w:
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duskiness
08-25-2006, 06:54 PM
Hi Soldier!

format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
have you ever had a dream that was so real? what if you were unable to wake from that dream, how can you differentiate between the real world and the dreamworld?
There is a well-known taoist story:

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Tzu, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of following my fancies as a butterfly, and was unconscious of my individuality as a man. Suddenly, I awoke, and there I lay, myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming that I am now a man."

format_quote Originally Posted by Soldier2000
has any one heard of Descartes?

When he said "I think therefore i am" what does he mean? is any one familiar with his work?
Trumble explained it really well. In the end, it's about question whether we can know anything about this world? are there reliable "bridges" between world and our mind?
Descartes say that we can know for sure that we exist, then that we have soul, and then he ends up with being sure that God exits. God is perfect, and He created this world, so He is not deceiving us. This world as we see it is real.

keep asking Soldier, although you will rarely get answers
take care
n.
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جوري
08-25-2006, 07:11 PM
I wanted to post this article just to hilight what a "philosopher" in a way is capable of... I think like any science it can be used properly or misused...
one can sit on the internet all day studying ... or sit on the internet all day watching porn.... one can learn medicine to heal... or can learn medicine to kill and lose the essence of humanity
and like wise one can use philosophy to teach or to lead astray.. without further ado an article from a muslim professor of philosophy
Response to The Washington Post

This is a letter that Dr. Idris sent to The Washington Post in response to the Article "Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism," where Dr. Idris' name was mentioned.. The letter was delivered to the Post by hand and via e-mail. The Washington Post did not publish his response.

Susan Schmidt’s report, (Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism), Thursday, October 4, 2003, is an example of writings about Islam that Muslims find very disturbing. They wonder what good does it serve the national interest of the United States to distort the facts about Muslim individuals, organizations, beliefs and positions, to see organizational links where none in fact exist, and to present all their honest activities as a threat to America?

The writer calls me an Imam, which I am not; I am a professor of philosophy. She groups me with what she calls salafi and ****** groups (her definition of which is ridiculous) while I consider myself to be an independent scholar who is not a member of any group or party or a blind follower of any leader; my only ultimate leader is Prophet Muhammad. I am certainly not a ******, and do not know of any scholar even in Saudi Arabia who calls himself a ******. There is no sect in Islam called ******sm. I did read some of Ibn Abdel Wahab’s works and I did write about him, but I never invited people to follow him, or any particular scholar or leader. I have great respect for him as one of our outstanding scholars, and the leader of a major revivalist movement. But still we do not accept every thing he says.

One might wonder why have the teachings of this man suddenly, and after more than two hundred years, become a threat to America? The answer is that what is now perceived by some to be a danger is not what is called ******sm. The epithet ‘******’ is now being exploited by many in America to describe any Muslim who takes his religion seriously. If you are a serious adherent to Islam, you are ******; if you are ****** you must be a terrorist; and if you are a terrorist you are a legitimate target. The message to practicing Muslims seems to be that if you are not like us you will not be tolerated by us. This is in essence is what the Senator, whom the reporter quotes, is saying. ******sm is a danger, we are told because it is “antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things.” Must everyone in the world conceive these things the way the Senator and his likes conceive them? If so then the problem is not confined to what is called ******sm. It is bound to include other Muslims, as well as all people who belong to other cultures; it is in fact bound to include many in the West since there is no consensus among them on the way these things are to be conceived. If your tolerance applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. It is because of this that Jews and Christians found their safest haven in the Muslim world long before the West started to talk about human rights and freedom of religion. “Jews familiar with history might note that from Spain to Baghdad, it was the Islamic world that offered the Jews of the Middle Ages a fair degree of toleration -- not the Christian West’, so tells us Richard Cohen in an article in the Post.; non-Muslims continue to live peacefully among Muslims. Islamic teachings, corroborated by our historical experience, teach us that the best atmosphere for the spread of Islam is the peaceful atmosphere. It is because of this that people like myself have been staunch advocates of peaceful coexistence and peaceful ways of inviting others to Islam long before September/11. And that is why we have been condemning acts of violence as ways of furthering the cause of Islam; we believe that they do just the opposite. But this has been of no avail to us; if you are an advocate of Islam, even by merely distributing copies of the Qur’an, you are bound to be viewed with suspicion. The same does not apply to organizations that put a copy of the Bible in every room of almost any hotel, not only in America, but in many other parts of the world.

We are determined however to stay this course. We know that being firm in our adherence to Islam has been one of the main reasons for its fast spreading.

Why is Islam expanding so spectacularly? … … … To any Christian familiar with the Bible, the answer is obvious: because God keeps His promises and blesses those who obey His Laws and fear Him, and punishes those who do not. … … Compare the amounts of abortion adultery, fornication and sodomy among Muslims and among Christians. Then compare the amounts of prayer. [Ecumenical Jihad, 1994, p.38]

These are the words of a Catholic professor of philosophy, Peter Kreeft. Could he perhaps be a Catholic ******?

Dr. Jaafar Idris

Washington Post article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...Fundamentalism

لعربي: ـ المقالات مقالات جريدة الميثاق . معالم لنهضتنا . الكتب والبحوث . الندوات والمحاضرات العامة . اللقاءات الصحفية . تعريف بالشيخ
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Idris
08-25-2006, 08:32 PM
This is a letter that Dr. Idris sent to The Washington Post in response to the Article "Spreading Saudi Fundamentalism," where Dr. Idris' name was mentioned.. The letter was delivered to the Post by hand and via e-mail. The Washington Post did not publish his response.

That not me by the way. :)

But what Fi_Sabilillah is so true Woodrow

I don't think you should go into studying philosophy brother. I've heard in lectures (especially by Yasir Qadhi) that studying philosophy is makrooh. Alot of people have gone into studying it, and then it affects their beliefs in Allaah Almighty, and they don't even know whether they exist or not.

Even some of the most knowledgable from among the muslims fell into this trap, and they have mentioned that it does have really bad consequences..
I don't think you should go into studying non-beneficial philosophy brother.
The problem is philosophy is non-beneficial.If you study the fall of the Islam Civilization you will see it Greek philosophy.
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Woodrow
08-25-2006, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Idris
That not me by the way. :)

But what Fi_Sabilillah is so true Woodrow





The problem is philosophy is non-beneficial.If you study the fall of the Islam Civilization you will see it Greek philosophy.
But the problem is that in the world of acadamia Religion is a field of Philosophy, so to say we should not study all philosphy would be seen as saying we should not study Islam. That was why I qualified it with saying we should not study non-beneficial philosophy
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- Qatada -
08-25-2006, 10:02 PM
:salamext:


jazak Allaah khayr brother Idris for backing me up. :) But like he said, alot of the sects within islam (which i won't mention for secratarian issues) have originally been caused because of philosophy, especially influenced by the greeks.


This wasn't the case at the beginning of islam, due to the fact that the arabs were simple people, but once islam started to spread throughout the world - the philosophical movements from other cultures etc. caused other muslims to fall into the same trap, and alot of sects and splitting up of the ummah are the outcome of this.


I know it may seem crazy, but something as simple as Allaah Almighty saying that He has a Hand, others may say that it means authority etc. But for the the ahlus sunnah (the people of sunnah) - they believe that Allaah Almighty does have a Hand, but it isn't like any of the creations. Something as simple as that causes different sects within the muslims.


It's better not to stand next to the door of confusion, if you have the key to knowledge from the Qur'an and Authentic sunnah already.


Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
08-25-2006, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I don't think you should go into studying philosophy brother. I've heard in lectures (especially by Yasir Qadhi) that studying philosophy is makrooh. Alot of people have gone into studying it, and then it affects their beliefs in Allaah Almighty, and they don't even know whether they exist or not.

Even some of the most knowledgable from among the muslims fell into this trap, and they have mentioned that it does have really bad consequences..


A famous example is Imam Ghazali:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=philosophy


Allaah Almighty knows best.


:wasalamex
:uuh: :uuh: :uhwhat :hiding: ma cousin duin dat.. but it aint affected anything, she still in2 the deen.. inshahallah she'l always wil be..
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