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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 12:45 AM
Just curious...what is a revert? Is it the opposite of a convert?:?
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 12:47 AM
heya db
well we believe everyone was born on 'natural inclination' as a Muslim, so people who become christians after that (due to parents or watever), and then become back to Muslim.. means they 'reverted back to islam' :)
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-30-2006, 12:48 AM
yeaaa, plain and simple lol
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 12:51 AM
gotcha!:)


Can I tag another question on here?


I read that once you proclaim yourself a Muslim (I forget the name of the thing you say) that all of your sins are washed away and your slate is clean so to speak.

Well since I was already baptised, would that go for me too or because I am older would my sins still stick?:?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-30-2006, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by doodlebug
gotcha!:)


Can I tag another question on here?


I read that once you proclaim yourself a Muslim (I forget the name of the thing you say) that all of your sins are washed away and your slate is clean so to speak.

Well since I was already baptised, would that go for me too or because I am older would my sins still stick?:?
The declaration of faith is called the "Shahada." Yes all ur past sinces r washed off. You start new basically. It goes for anyone who accepts Islam, old or young.
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 12:54 AM
actually in Islam we don't baptise kids becasue we don't believe that someone should inherit the sin of anyone else (e.g. me inheriting adam's mistake).

however, when someone becomes Muslim, all their former mistakes (even if its murders, adultery, swearing etc etc) is totally forgiven and they have a fresh new start :statisfie
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 01:09 AM
wow that is so cool!!!!

kind of makes me wish i knew when my time would be up so i could revert right before!

just kidding...heheheh
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 01:11 AM
lool hehe we never know when death strikes doodlebug, so better sooner than later ;)

don't rush tho, make sure u understand exactly the terms you're going to agree to, coz once you accept Islam, it's a new life, no U-turn :)

tc all the best
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 01:14 AM
Oh I'm far from being at that point. I just wanna have all my ducks in a row if and when I decide to "revert". ;)
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 01:15 AM
lol good luck
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therebbe
08-30-2006, 01:24 AM
even if its murders,
:uuh:
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
:uuh:

Kind of the same thing if you are baptised a Christian...all your sins...including if it is a murder, get washed away. :)
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
:uuh:
yep.. coz remember we're looking at things relative to a more advanced scale, the hereafter is where we get Judged, Allah is the ultimate Judge not us.

So if a criminal becomes Muslim, he doesnt even have to face the punishment, because he's literally signed a contract to completely change his way of life.

salamz
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Abdul Fattah
08-30-2006, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by doodlebug
Oh I'm far from being at that point. I just wanna have all my ducks in a row if and when I decide to "revert". ;)
Obviously this only works when one is sincear :)
And in a way it makes sense. Because if someone is sincear in reverting, that means that a person who once did not believe is now changed and now suddenly does believe, that implies not only that he has sincear remorse for the bad things that he did, but also that he has run away from whatever believes that alowed him to do the bad things in the first place.
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therebbe
08-30-2006, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
yep.. coz remember we're looking at things relative to a more advanced scale, the hereafter is where we get Judged, Allah is the ultimate Judge not us.

So if a criminal becomes Muslim, he doesnt even have to face the punishment, because he's literally signed a contract to completely change his way of life.

salamz
So thats justice? A murderer kills 5 people and rapes a little girl, he then converts to Islam and G-d forgives him? :uhwhat
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lolwatever
08-30-2006, 03:08 AM
you can't do much worse than commit a crime against Allah directly (by being a kafir), once you surrender, you are forgiven. And if you do the same thing while you're a Musilm, you're crucified :X

ps: btw if he does become Muslim, the family of the victim isn't just left like that... the government will pay the blood money on behalf of the revert instead of the revert himself having to pay it.
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syilla
08-30-2006, 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
So thats justice? A murderer kills 5 people and rapes a little girl, he then converts to Islam and G-d forgives him? :uhwhat
lol...its not our job to judge the murderer...

you never know how repent he is and guiltiness that he felt...for his crime.
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therebbe
08-30-2006, 03:26 AM
you can't do much worse than commit a crime against Allah directly (by being a kafir),
So being a non-Muslims is worse than being a Murderer/Rapist to you?
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Woodrow
08-30-2006, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
So being a non-Muslims is worse than being a Murderer/Rapist to you?
Your question is actually a very unlikely one to occur. If the crime is committed in a non-sharia law country, which is nearly all countries, the person is still subject to the laws of the country.


If it occurs in a Sharia law country all citizens of the country are already Muslim so he will not be treated as a revert. If it happens to be a non-Muslim that happens to be in the sharia country as a visitor than that would apply to him.

It is not a question of a non-Muslim being worse than a rapist, murdrer etc. It is acknowledging that the person is no longer the person who committed the crimes after a true reversion.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-30-2006, 04:08 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
So thats justice? A murderer kills 5 people and rapes a little girl, he then converts to Islam and G-d forgives him? :uhwhat
Tawba (sincere repentance) has four conditions in Islam:
1. The person must recognize that he or she has committed a sin and truly regret having done so.
2. The person must have a sincere resolve never to commit the sin again.
3. The person must turn to Allah in humility and ask for forgiveness.
4. If the sin had caused harm to someone else, the person must make every attempt to redress the harm. [*]
I believe Teshuva is the equivalent of Tawba in Judaism.

The following hadîth of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) shows us that for one who sincerely repents, the gates of Allah's mercy will never be closed:
"There was a person before you who had killed ninety-nine persons and then made an inquiry about the learned persons of the world (who could show him the way to salvation). He was directed to a monk. He came to him and told him that he had killed ninety-nine persons and asked him whether there was any scope for his repentance to be accepted. The monk said: "No." So the man killed the monk as well and thus completed one hundred.

He then asked about the learned persons of the earth and he was directed to a scholar, and he told him that he had killed one hundred persons and asked him whether there was any hope for his repentance to be accepted. He said: Yes; what stands between you and the repentance? You better go to such and such land; there are people devoted to prayer and worship and you also worship along with them and do not come to the land of yours since it was an evil land (for you).

So he went away and he had hardly covered half the distance when death came to him and there was a dispute between the angels of mercy and the angels of punishment. The angels of mercy said: This man has come as a penitant and remorseful to Allah and the angels of punishment said: He has done no good at all. Then there came another angel in the form of a human being in order to decide between them. He said: You measure the land to which he has drawn near. They measured it and found him nearer to the land where he intended to go (the land of piety), and so the angels of mercy took possession of it." (Sahîh Muslim)
As well the following hadith:
A man came to the Prophet and asked, "What do you think of a man who has committed every sin, not leaving out any sin, major or minor [according to another report: if his sins were to be divided among all the people of the world, they would destroy them]. Can such a man repent?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) asked, “Have you become Muslim?” He said: “I bear witness that there is no god except Allah and that you are the messenger of Allah.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Do good deeds and keep away from evil deeds, and Allah will turn them all into good deeds for you.” He asked, “What about my acts of treachery and immorality?” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Yes, (those too).” The man said, “Allaahu akbar (Allaah is most great)!” and kept glorifying Allah until he was out of sight. (Musnad Al-Bazzâr, Mu'jam At-Tabarânî)
The problem with continually sinning is that each sin takes you further and further away from the straight path, causes you to increase in misguidance and makes your heart hardened. As one continues to sin it becomes more difficult for them to rectify themselves and return to God and they may continue to sin until their hearts are sealed completely:
45:23 Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desires, and knowing this Allah has sent him astray and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded?

The fact that sins and good deeds bring about an opposite change in one's state is shown in this hadîth:
The Prophet said: "The one who does bad deeds then does good deeds is like a man who wears a tight coat of mail which almost chokes him; when he does a good deed, it becomes a little looser, and as he does more good deeds it becomes even looser, until it falls off him and drops to the ground." (Mu'jam At-Tabarânî)
So the more one sins, the worse their condition becomes and the greater the struggle is for them to come back to the right path; this is why one who succeeds in coming back to the straigth path after having gone astray will have his sins transformed into good deeds.

There's also a difference between whether someone may be forgiven before God (and thus spared punishment in the afterlife), but due to their infringement of someone else's right they must still face the punishment implemented by the state.

So being a non-Muslims is worse than being a Murderer/Rapist to you?
Here's what I wrote in another thread:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The fact that Shirk is the worst crime possible is something established by both the Qur'an (4:48, 5:72, 39:65, etc.) and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Someone who commits genocide will certainly be punished in Hell-fire for a great period, but if he had even an atom's weight of faith, he will eventually attain paradise. By contrast, the Mushrik who does not repent from his shirk prior to death will remain in hell forever.

Shirk is the most abominable and abhorrent sin because when someone commits a genocide they are refusing to implement God's mercy and justice, but the Mushrik has rejected God's mercy and justice in its entirey, and thus has laid the foundation for all evil. Violating the rights of the creation is certainly abhorrent injustice as in the case of genocide, but how about violating the rights of the Creator Himself? The magnitude of the injustice is unimaginable.
What I said about shirk (associating partners with God) applies to kufr (disbelief) as well.

Regards
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glo
08-30-2006, 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by doodlebug
Kind of the same thing if you are baptised a Christian...all your sins...including if it is a murder, get washed away. :)
Originally Posted by lolwatever
when someone becomes Muslim, all their former mistakes (even if its murders, adultery, swearing etc etc) is totally forgiven and they have a fresh new start
Yep, it sounds very similar, doesn't it?
Honestly, I think the principle is the same: A public commitment to God, which includes having all past sins forgiven and starting with a clean slate. And a desire and commitment to become a new person, a follower of God, who will strive to obey God's word and not commit the same sins again.

Doodlebug, out of interest, where you baptised as an adult?

Peace.:)
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syilla
08-30-2006, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
So being a non-Muslims is worse than being a Murderer/Rapist to you?
he is just mentioning what is in the quran...the worst criminal is syirk.

But what do you care what stated in the quran...i'm sure it doesn't affect you at all...
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Yep, it sounds very similar, doesn't it?
Honestly, I think the principle is the same: A public commitment to God, which includes having all past sins forgiven and starting with a clean slate. And a desire and commitment to become a new person, a follower of God, who will strive to obey God's word and not commit the same sins again.

Doodlebug, out of interest, where you baptised as an adult?

Peace.:)
Nope. I'm a cradle Catholic. :D
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doodlebug
08-30-2006, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
So thats justice? A murderer kills 5 people and rapes a little girl, he then converts to Islam and G-d forgives him? :uhwhat
wow. At times I think I know things but even if I had all the knowledge of every human being I wouldn't still even have a millimeter of the knowledge that God almighty has. Nor would I ever question why he forgives one and not another.
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glo
08-30-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by doodlebug
Nope. I'm a cradle Catholic. :D
Cool! :D
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therebbe
08-30-2006, 02:10 PM
Keep in mind I am not here to judge. I am here to learn and then use the knowledge I have aquired to make educated descions on my views of Islam instead of what CNN and FOX say I should view islam as.
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glo
08-30-2006, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
Keep in mind I am not here to judge. I am here to learn and then use the knowledge I have aquired to make educated descions on my views of Islam instead of what CNN and FOX say I should view islam as.
Hi therebbe

It seems to have emerged in this thread, that Christianity and Islam both believe God to be able to forgive any sin - no matter how terrible. Although we may not understand with our human minds, and we may feel that some sins are beyond forgiveness and some people do not deserve God's forgiveness - it is not for us to make such judgements.
Is the Judaic view different on this?

That's the judgement people were referring to in this thread. I don't think anybody was accusing you of being judgemental. :)

peace.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-30-2006, 04:31 PM
yeap yeap ur rite! God is the judge of all.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-30-2006, 05:05 PM
thought id share some verses from the Qur'an pertaining to this thread.

“And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle,
thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth:
they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.”
5:83

“O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.”2:228

“Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that
wander in devotion to the cause of God: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer:
that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God: (These do rejoice).
So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers.” Qur’an 9:112
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