/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Irans New Plane



brainiac
09-07-2006, 02:16 AM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...09-06-03-47-45


Sep 6, 3:47 AM EDT

Iran Unveils Locally Made Fighter Plane

By NASSER KARIMI
Associated Press Writer


TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran unveiled its first locally manufactured fighter plane Wednesday during large-scale military exercises, state-run television reported.

The report said the bomber Saegheh is similar to the American F-18 fighter plane, but "more powerful." It also said the plane was "designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts."

State TV said the Iranian air force had commissioned the Saegheh plane after many test flights in the past year.

Television footage showed the airplane taking off and launching two rockets. The plane had a small cockpit and only one pilot.

"Saegheh is capable of launching both rockets and bombs," the report said.

General Karim Ghavami, commander of Iran's air force, told state-run television that the war games were being held "to show the trans-regional forces that we are ready to defend our country up to the latest drop of our blood."

The Islamic republic is concerned about the U.S. military presence in neighboring Iraq and Afghanistan at a time when the international community has threatened to impose sanctions against Tehran because of its disputed nuclear program.

During the war-games, which began Aug. 19 and have been dubbed "The Blow of Zolfaghar," Iran has test-fired short-range, surface-to-surface missiles, submarine-to-surface missiles, a new air defense system and laser bombs.

Iran's military also test-fired a series of missiles during war games in the Persian Gulf in March and April, including a missile it claimed was undetectable by radar and could use multiple warheads to hit several targets simultaneously.

After decades of relying on foreign weapons purchases, Iran now says it is increasingly self-sufficient, claiming it annually exports more than $100 million worth of military equipment to more than 50 countries.

Since 1992, Iran has produced its own tanks, armored personnel carriers and missiles, the government said. It announced in early 2005 that it had begun producing torpedoes. The government has not said how many warplanes it will build.

© 2006 The Associated Press.




Like an F-18, but 'more powerful'.:giggling: Jeez, at least make the lie beleiveable. One of those things couldn't crash fast enough if it went against an F-18. Iran must be a strange place to live, with all the wierd stuff going on over there.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Trumble
09-07-2006, 08:34 PM
Designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts to be F-22 and Typhoon toast, I suspect.

Presumably this is a national pride issue? I can't believe this plane would be more effective than the Su-35 which (including development costs) they could almost certainly get for a lot less money.
Reply

- Qatada -
09-07-2006, 08:39 PM
If you [disbelievers] seek the victory - the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers. (Qur'an 8:19)


Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Qur'an 8:10)
Reply

Jayda
09-07-2006, 08:42 PM
why does desist refer to wrong in the first part of the sentence and then return refers to an attack in the second part of the sentence when the only subject in the ayat is military forces...
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
QuranStudy
09-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Iran should make more of those....alot more.
Reply

- Qatada -
09-07-2006, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
why does desist refer to wrong in the first part of the sentence and then return refers to an attack in the second part of the sentence when the only subject in the ayat is military forces...

I think the translation wasn't too accurate before, i've replaced it with a more accurate [Sahih international] translation.


Thanks for pointing that out.

Peace. :)
Reply

Jayda
09-07-2006, 09:02 PM
lol thanks that made more sense...
Reply

Woodrow
09-07-2006, 09:10 PM
What a waste of money the production of military arms is. A war is not won unless it has won the hearts of the people. Warfare that depends on military might, only produces warfare and does not reduce the causes of war.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-07-2006, 09:14 PM
What a waste of money the production of military arms is. A war is not won unless it has won the hearts of the people. Warfare that depends on military might, only produces warfare and does not reduce the causes of war.
But Iran needs to invest for for the sake of defense. If Iran loses to Israel/USA, then that'll be a big blow to the Muslim world.
Reply

Woodrow
09-07-2006, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
But Iran needs to invest for for the sake of defense. If Iran loses to Israel/USA, then that'll be a big blow to the Muslim world.
You are not going to believe this neither the USA nor Israel even want Iran. Contrary to popular believe the USA does not buy oil from Iran. True it comes from Iran, but it is owned by the oil companies that bought it from Iran. It is major oil coporations that drill for the oil and than sell it. No matter what contry owns Iran the oil production will be at the mercy of the oil companies, not any country.

Iran outside of oil is an extremly impovershed country. If the had not been able to sell the oil right to the major companies, there would be virtualy no economic development, there would have been no money for military arms. Iran needs to import nearly all of it's food. Virtually 100% of all the wheat products they use is bought from Canadian farmers. Much of the meat products come from Australia, Argentina and the USA. Without the oil income they would starve. Even now the building of military arms is dependent on buying the raw materials from other countries. Each of those planes could be a school, factory or hospital.

The oil based economy will end. there is only a limited amount of oil left to be sold. Once that is gone, so is Irans Economy. The money they are using for armaments would be put to far better use if it was to develope resourses and industrialization for the future, when the oil is gone. And the oil is going to be gone much sooner then they anticipate.


Having a well advanced army and a stong militia can very well lose the war for them. Iran dosen't even produce much of it's own gasoline and has to import it. It is not going to make much sense to have the best air craft ever, if you don't have the fuel to fly them. A well developed military is a poor trade if it is going to result in starving the people it was intended to protect.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-07-2006, 10:05 PM
You are not going to believe this neither the USA nor Israel even want Iran. Contrary to popular believe the USA does not buy oil from Iran. True it comes from Iran, but it is owned by the oil companies that bought it from Iran. It is major oil coporations that drill for the oil and than sell it. No matter what contry owns Iran the oil production will be at the mercy of the oil companies, not any country.
It's not because of the oil. It's because the ME is such a volatile region.

Iran outside of oil is an extremly impovershed country. If the had not been able to sell the oil right to the major companies, there would be virtualy no economic development, there would have been no money for military arms. Iran needs to import nearly all of it's food. Virtually 100% of all the wheat products they use is bought from Canadian farmers. Much of the meat products come from Australia, Argentina and the USA. Without the oil income they would starve. Even now the building of military arms is dependent on buying the raw materials from other countries. Each of those planes could be a school, factory or hospital
Apparently, Iran has enough money to sustain itself for year, as apparent through contracts with China, Russia, and other nations.

The oil based economy will end. there is only a limited amount of oil left to be sold. Once that is gone, so is Irans Economy. The money they are using for armaments would be put to far better use if it was to develope resourses and industrialization for the future, when the oil is gone. And the oil is going to be gone much sooner then they anticipate.
This why nuclear energy will benefit Iran.

Having a well advanced army and a stong militia can very well lose the war for them. Iran dosen't even produce much of it's own gasoline and has to import it. It is not going to make much sense to have the best air craft ever, if you don't have the fuel to fly them. A well developed military is a poor trade if it is going to result in starving the people it was intended to protect.
Iran had a good supply of energy. Why do they have to import gasoline?
Reply

Woodrow
09-07-2006, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
It's not because of the oil. It's because the ME is such a volatile region.

That is true, and that is an issue that needs to be reolved



Apparently, Iran has enough money to sustain itself for year, as apparent through contracts with China, Russia, and other nations.

All are dependant on oil. The Arms sales of $100 milion per year is negligable. Irans daily income from the existing oil can be more than that.


This why nuclear energy will benefit Iran.

Nuclear energy is not yet the anticipated solution that people believe it is. It is very expensive to maintain and so far in ever country it has been tried it has not been cost effective. Here in the US we are slowly shutting down the plants that have been built as they are too expensive. The only real use for them has been as an excuse to produce plutonium.


Iran had a good supply of energy. Why do they have to import gasoline?

Iran like most of the oil producing countries, has built very few refineries. The demand was not sufficient for any major company to produce gasoline specificaly for Iran. So although the oil may come from Iran, it is useless until it is refined.,
Sadly many of the oil producing countries never encouraged the refining of it. Off hand I can not think of a single oil producing nation that does not need to import most of it's gasoline.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-07-2006, 10:20 PM
Sadly many of the oil producing countries never encouraged the refining of it. Off hand I can not think of a single oil producing nation that does not need to import most of it's gasoline.
So are you implying that if there was really a war, and Iran lost, then that's the end for Iran as a power in the ME?? It's a scary thought.
Reply

Woodrow
09-07-2006, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
So are you implying that if there was really a war, and Iran lost, then that's the end for Iran as a power in the ME?? It's a scary thought.
In reality Iran has not been an ME power since the Persian Empire. It has been dependant on it's neighbors for many years. Iran on it's own does not have the reources to even support it's own population.
Reply

Joe98
09-07-2006, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
claiming it annually exports more than $100 million worth of military equipment to more than 50 countries.

Thats an average of $2 million per country - or the cost of a spare wheel!
Reply

QuranStudy
09-07-2006, 10:46 PM
Thats an average of $2 million per country - or the cost of a spare wheel!
Iran gives Hezbollah 100 million alone.
Reply

Woodrow
09-07-2006, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Iran gives Hezbollah 100 million alone.
Roughly one tenth the cost of a Stealth Bomber.


Advocates of further B-2 production assume that new B-2s would cost less than $600 million apiece, but the Air Force estimates the full cost of each new B-2 at approximately $1 billion. Depending on production rates, at least $1.7 billion and up to $3.5 billion per year could be required for renewed B-2 production. An additional 20 B-2s would cost a total of at least $20 billion, while others advocate production of the B-2 at a rate of at least three per year until the entire bomber force has been replaced by B-2s.
Source: http://www.fas.org/pub/gen/mswg/stealth/
Reply

Joe98
09-07-2006, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
This why nuclear energy will benefit Iran.

The world is happy for Iran to develope nuclear energy. The fear is they might develope nuclear weapons.

And then hand the weapons to Hezbollah.
Reply

Woodrow
09-08-2006, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
The world is happy for Iran to develope nuclear energy. The fear is they might develope nuclear weapons.

And then hand the weapons to Hezbollah.
If the USA actually hated Iran and the Iranian people, I believe we would gladly give them all the nuclear power plants they want and even our surplus nukes. They are both too costly for any country to maintain for any length of time. Totaly useless.

I believe Pakastan is beging to feel the ill effects of having made the mistake of entering into the Nuclear age.:

BAGHALCHUR, 17 May 2006 (IRIN) - Heaps of yellowish, sandy material and pale sludge can be seen around the village of Baghalchur, located in the barren hills around the city of Dera Ghazi Khan, around 300 km south of the capital Islamabad, in the southern Pakistani province of Punjab.

At first sight, the material seems innocuous, blending in with the sand and scrub all around. However, local people believe the material contains radioactive nuclear waste, brought in by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) and dumped in the area by staff wearing full protective gear.

The PAEC has vehemently denied this. It maintains that any nuclear material in the region was stored only in underground tunnels and caves, posing no danger to the environment. A former chairman of the PAEC, Pervez Butt, has been quoted as telling the national media that the nuclear waste storage was being "carried out according to international standards”.

However, local residents in Baghalchur, and the many tiny hamlets scattered around it, comprising some 50,000 people in total, remain unconvinced. In March this year, the Pakistan Supreme Court heard a petition brought by four residents of Baghalchur in a local court.
Source:http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?R...ectRegion=Asia

Now it is just a matter of time before they get to face their own 3 mile island and Chenoybal.

Then even thinking about the maitainance for nuclear weapons. Those are expensive rascals to keep as pets, and actually totally useless as a war weapon. Use should only be left to idiots and maniacs as those are the only people who could possibly think they are affordable weapons, even if given as a gift.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
09-08-2006, 12:26 AM
Iran should buy a F-22 on the black market and then let engineers break the fighter down all the way to it's infancy and check how everything is build

then they should use that info to manufacture their own F-22's

in case of a airbattle the US will be resisted with their own technology

that's how the brits did it when they caught one german superior airfighter

they used the technology and then became the superior force in the air during WW2

that's smart!
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 12:28 AM
Roughly one tenth the cost of a Stealth Bomber.
As you saw with the conflict with Israel, 100 million dollars is more than enough for guerilla warfare.

The world is happy for Iran to develope nuclear energy. The fear is they might develope nuclear weapons.
And who's accusation are they believing? Bush's??
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 12:28 AM
Iran should buy a F-22 on the black market and then let engineers break the fighter down all the way to it's infancy and check how everything is build

then they should use that info to manufacture their own F-22's

in case of a airbattle the US will be resisted with their own technology

that's how the brits did it when they caught one german superior airfighter

they used the technology and then became the superior force in the air during WW2

that's smart!
They're buying F16s from Venezuela and are then upgrading it.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
09-08-2006, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
They're buying F16s from Venezuela and are then upgrading it.
that's good they should prepare themselves in case of any foreign aggression
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Iran should buy a F-22 on the black market ...


There is no 'black market' for F-22s'. The U.S. hasn't sold any. And I haven't heard of any other, older U.S. jets being sold that way. Hugo Chavez has threatened to sell some F-16s', but they are an older model with no spare parts. Besides, reverse engineering isn't that easy with modern day fighters. And then there is the problem of finding enough competent pilots. I'm a firm believer that if the U.S. shows the world an advanced fighter, they have something even more advanced that they aren't showing.
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
They're buying F16s from Venezuela and are then upgrading it.


They haven't bought them yet, and anything that Iran would do to them wouldn't be an 'upgrade'. Iran can't get spare parts for their old F-4s'. How are they going to work on an F-16 ?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
09-08-2006, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
There is no 'black market' for F-22s'. The U.S. hasn't sold any. And I haven't heard of any other, older U.S. jets being sold that way. Hugo Chavez has threatened to sell some F-16s', but they are an older model with no spare parts. Besides, reverse engineering isn't that easy with modern day fighters. And then there is the problem of finding enough competent pilots. I'm a firm believer that if the U.S. shows the world an advanced fighter, they have something even more advanced that they aren't showing.
i know there hiding it right now in AREA-51 :uhwhat

and Iran has a nuke but is just playing where is Waldo with the US....

:?
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 12:51 AM
Anyone else have F18s?
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 12:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
i know there hiding it right now in AREA-51 :?




Nope. An airbase southeast of Denver, Colorado, among other places. They don't use Groom Lake much anymore.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 12:55 AM
LOL brainiac, I have a higher warning level than you -- 75% :D :D
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Anyone else have F18s?


A few countries. Canada, Spain, I'm pretty sure Taiwan does. Still, if you got your hands on one, you'd be grounded after one or two flights for lack of spare parts. The maintainance on these things is mind-boggling.


P.S. Quran, you've earned every one of those warning points.;D
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 01:08 AM
So which planes are fairly replacable with spare parts?? F16s??
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
So which planes are fairly replacable with spare parts?? F16s??


If you're someone the U.S. doesn't like (Iran), we don't sell them to you. Then you're screwed. Iran can't even get their F-4s' off the ground. The planes and parts are highly regulated things. The countries we do sell these things to must account for the stuff they buy, or they get cut off. That's why you don't see F-16s' flying all over the place. Plus, there are many variants of each model. (F-16a, F-16b, F-16c...) We don't sell the top of the line models.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 01:21 AM
Dont the Russians and Chinese have their own planes?? How advanced are those?
Reply

Jayda
09-08-2006, 01:24 AM
what i hate about bush is that even if its not true he makes other countries think we want to hurt them...
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Dont the Russians and Chinese have their own planes?? How advanced are those?

Russians MiGs and Sukois' aren't bad. But they don't do too good against U.S. stuff. We've seen that from the end of Vietnam till now. The Chinese fly MiGs. There is a good reason everyone wants F-16's and 18s'. Luckily the U.S. does a good job of keeping this stuff out of 'hostile' hands. If someone we sell to got caught selling their stuff to a 'third party', they'd get cut off, then all THEIR stuff would eventually be unflyable.
Reply

therebbe
09-08-2006, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Dont the Russians and Chinese have their own planes?? How advanced are those?
Not nearly as advanced as the American planes. The Russians and China are also suspect about selling the highest military technology to Iran because they realise the loose cannon Iran is, and how it could end up biting them in the behinds the same way America arming Al-Queda did.

Remember, Russia is in conflict with Chechens, and China is not exactly friendly to any religious dominated state being communist. I doubt either would sell Iran anything serious they have.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 01:34 AM
Can engineers in enemy states make copies of F16s or makes similar planes??
Reply

therebbe
09-08-2006, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Can engineers in enemy states make copies of F16s or makes similar planes??
I seriosuly doubt it.
Reply

Woodrow
09-08-2006, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Can engineers in enemy states make copies of F16s or makes similar planes??
A fighter plane nowadays is no longer an airplane. It is a computerized multi guided weapons system.

The physical part of the aircraft, is probaly the smallest part of the system. Todays aircraft are no longer flying machines they are basicaly an integrated computer system. A pilot is no longer a sky jocky he is now a computer programer, systems analyst and hardware operater. Air to air combat is no longer see them, shoot them. Most fighter pilots will probably never even make visual contact with their target.

Much of flying today is dependant on satellite navigation and ground control. To be honest if it wasn't for the need for judgement decisions the aircraft could be flown without the pilot. However, at the moment the plane still needs a human to make independent judgement calls.

Iran could buy a totaly built F-16, yet if the instruements are not properly programmed, it would be useless. I can not picture how an F-16 could be used against US forces for any length of time. All we need do is turn off the satellite and it will be lost, with no navigational functions. Yes, Iran could program their own satellite navigation system, but that also means they will need to send up several stationary orbit satellites.

todays fighter planes are flown from the ground and through satellites just as much as by pilot. In fact the ground system has more control over some of the planes actions.
Reply

syilla
09-08-2006, 02:58 AM
:sl:

guy and aeroplanes...they just cannot be separated :rolleyes:

guys will be guys...
Reply

north_malaysian
09-08-2006, 06:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
Russians MiGs and Sukois' aren't bad.
Malaysia bought these too!!
Reply

north_malaysian
09-08-2006, 06:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
China is not exactly friendly to any religious dominated state being communist. I doubt either would sell Iran anything serious they have.
Russia attends OIC conference as an observer (Putin himself came when KL was the host), sends Quran reciter to Malaysia's International Quranic Recitation Competition every year - that shows Russia wants to be close with Muslim nations as allies.

Chinese government is amicable with the Huis (Chinese speaking Muslims), many Chinese say this ... and also have good relationship with Muslim nations.

I think North Korea has more threats to China and Russia rather than Iran.
Reply

Trumble
09-08-2006, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Can engineers in enemy states make copies of F16s or makes similar planes??
The question is why would anybody want to? The F-16 is now verging on obselete, certainly without the state-of-the-art avionics only available from the US. Buying in Russian planes would be a much easier and smarter policy. None are anything other than cannon fodder to the US Raptor or even European Typhoon (which has been sold to the Saudis, incidently).
Reply

Jayda
09-08-2006, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
:sl:

guy and aeroplanes...they just cannot be separated :rolleyes:

guys will be guys...

:rollseyes my husband is in the air force and owns two planes... its all he talks about.
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 09:59 PM
Bottom line. Against the U.S. and Israel, If you fly, you die. It's that simple. No country can come close to these two countries hardware or pilots. Period.
Reply

QuranStudy
09-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Idk about the pilots. The seem to be smoking weed :D :D
Reply

brainiac
09-08-2006, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by QuranStudy
Idk about the pilots. The seem to be smoking weed :D :D


Say what ? :?
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-11-2006, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
Bottom line. Against the U.S. and Israel, If you fly, you die. It's that simple. No country can come close to these two countries hardware or pilots. Period.
Salaam,

Is planes that make a war won..wonder whta is happeing in Iraq and Afghan..

Or in lebanon.,.your planes cannot fly wihout bases and Inshallah,the Muslim coutnries hould not be hyprocrite and not aid these kafirs in murder of muslim..
Reply

Woodrow
09-11-2006, 05:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Is planes that make a war won..wonder whta is happeing in Iraq and Afghan..

Or in lebanon.,.your planes cannot fly wihout bases and Inshallah,the Muslim coutnries hould not be hyprocrite and not aid these kafirs in murder of muslim..
Here is just one base:

Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar
25°06'57"N 51°18'55"E
As of September 2002 about 2,000 American soldiers were stationed at Al Udeid, down from a peak of 4,000 during the war in Afghanistan. The United States kept two dozen KC-135 Stratotankers and KC-10A Extenders at the base for in-flight refueling of fighter jets and bombers over Afghanistan. And though the number of American soldiers on the base had fallen by half since the peak of the Afghan campaign, to about 2,200, the base had been expanded over the previous six months to accommodate up to 10,000 troops and 120 aircraft.

Qatar agreed to host pre-positioned equipment for an Army brigade, and in 1996 it hosted an air expeditionary force consisting of 30 fighters and four tankers. Air Force pre-positioning was facilitated by the construction of what may be the premier air base in the Gulf at Al-Udeid. The Qatari philosophy behind construction was likened to "build it and they will come" -- obtain the best defense by providing the best facilities for US and coalition forces. The Al-Udeid Air Base was built at a cost of more than a billion dollars. Its runway measures 15,000 long -- the longest in the Gulf. The facility's shelters can accommodate nearly a hundred aircraft, rather more than needed by the Qatari Air Force, which has only a dozen fighters. The facility is owned and operated by the Qatari armed forces.

In 1999, Qatar's emir, Sheikh Hamad, reportedly told US officials that he would like to see as many as 10,000 US servicemen permanently stationed at Al Udeid.
Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...lity/udeid.htm

there are quite a few American Bases in Mid Eastern countries. Several in Saudi Alone. At least one in Turkey, used to be 3 in Morocco. Several US navy ports Through out the countries that border The mediterranian.

Here are just the USAF bases in the Persian Gulf Region alone.

Ahmed Al Jaber AB KW
Ali Al Salem AB KW
Al Dhafra AB UAE
Dhahran AB SA
Doha IAP QA
Eskan Village SA
Fujairah IAP UAE
Jeddah AB SA
Khamis Mushayt AB SA
Khobar Towers SA
King Khalid Military City SA
Kuwait IAP KW
Masirah OM
Al Musnana AB OM
Muharraq BH
Prince Sultan AB SA
Riyadh AB SA
Seeb AB OM
Shaheed Mwaffaq AB JO
Shaikh Isa AB BH
Thumrait AB OM
Tabuk AB SA
Taif AB SA
Al Udeid AB QA

All US military bases in the Mideast:

contingency use of ports and airfields throughout the AOR. These infrastructure sites have been identified to assure U.S. access to enable the projection and sustainment of forces within the AOR.

Logistics Civil Augmentation Program (LOGCAP) uses a team approach to provide services for which the Army no longer has organic resources. Contractors are brought in to augment troops during wartime to provide food, laundry, shower, latrine and power generation services, including the set-up and maintenance of base camps in places like Djibouti, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Jordan and more recently in Kuwait, UAE and Iraq. With contractors providing these basic services, the Army can concentrate on what it does best.



Bahrain
Iraq
Kuwait
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Egypt
Israel
Jordan
Yemen
Djibouti
Ethiopia
Kenya
Afghanistan
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Pakistan
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan

Army Navy Air Force USMTM / OPM
Primary Deployment Facilities
Camp Arifjan, KW
Camp Doha, KW
Kabal, KW

Eskan Village, SA

El Gorah, EG
Sharm el Sheikh, EG
Tiran Island, EG
Manama, BH
Diego Garcia BIOT
Camp Commando, KW


Doha IAP, QA
Hurghada, EG
Jeddah AB, SA
Masirah AB, OM
Muharraq, BH
Ahmed Al Jaber AB, KW
Ali Al Salem AB, KW
Al Dhafra AB, UAE
Eskan Village, SA
Khobar Towers, SA
Masirah, OM
Al Musnana AB, OM
Prince Sultan AB, SA
Seeb AB, OM
Shaikh Isa AB, BH
Thumrait AB, OM
Al Udeid AB, QA
Logistics Facilities
Camp As Sayliyah QA
Camp Doha, KW
Camp Snoopy, QA
Site 51, IS
Site 53, IS
Site 54, IS

Dammam, SA
Falcon-78 ASP, QA
Doha, QA
Jeddah, SA
Jubail, SA
Mina Qabus, OM
Mina Salman, BH
Mombassa, KY
Salalah, OM
Umm Said, QA
Yanbu, SA
Aden, YE
Aqaba, JO
Djibouti, DJ
Doha, QA
Fujairah, UAE
Hurghada, EG
Jebel Ali, UAE
Jeddah, SA
Mina Al Ahmadi, KW
Mina Qabus, OM
Mina Salman, BH
Mina Zayed, UAE
Mombassa, KE
Port Said, EG
Port of Suez, EG
Fujairah IAP, UAE
Kuwait IAP, KW
Manama, BH
Masirah, OM
Seeb AB, OM
Thumrait AB, OM
Al Udeid AB, QA
Training Facilities
Mubarak Military City, EG
Udairi Range, KW
Beni Suef AB, EG
Cairo West AB, EG
Shaheed Mwaffaq AB, JO
Dammam, SA
Dhahran AB, SA
Hofuf, SA
Jeddah, SA
Khamis Mushayt AB, SA
King Khalid Military City, SA
Riyadh AB, SA
Taif AB, SA
Tabuk AB, SA

Operation ENDURING FREEDOM Contingency Sites
Bagram, AF
Chirchik, UZ
Dalbandin, PK
Dushanbe, TK
FOB Salerno, AF
Jacobabad, PK
Khanabad, UZ
Kandahar, AF
Khost, AF
Khujand, TK
Kulyab, TK
Kurgan-Tyube, TK
Manas, KZ
Lwara, AF
Mazar-e Sharif, AF
Pasni, PK
Pul-i-Kandahar, AF
Shamsi, PK
Tuzel, UZ

Chitral, PK
Osh, KZ
Peshawar, PK
Almaty, KZ
Bagram, AF
Chirchik, UZ
Dalbandin, PK
Dushanbe, TK
Jacobabad, PK
Khanabad, UZ
Kandahar, AF
Khujand, TK
Kulyab, TK
Kurgan-Tyube, TK
Manas, KZ
Mazar-e Sharif, AF
Pasni, PK
Shamsi, PK
Tuzel, UZ

Chitral, PK
Osh, KZ
Peshawar, PK

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ty/centcom.htm
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-11-2006, 11:21 AM
Salaam,

thanks for that info and people wonder is the US really about peace and security?

Those that build these places are trully for westen backing for they fear losing their power.

Inshallah,for what ever they fear and what ever they seek in this world will come to naught.


Can you imagine if all those Islamic coutnries rejcted US aid and kicked them out and demand that they eithr work for peace or leave.

Hyprocrisy and that is why the muslim ummah so weak,we depend on toehr for aid and protection.And when those we seek protection bomba nd murder us what do we do??

WE BEG for more aid..we beg for understanding..

Inshallah,the price to be apid will be large but the rewards greater.
Reply

brainiac
09-11-2006, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam, ...your planes cannot fly wihout bases ...


Let's not forget the U.S. carrier forces. :giggling:
Reply

brainiac
09-11-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam, ...Can you imagine if all those Islamic coutnries rejcted US aid ...


Aerosmith said it best. 'Dream on, dream on, dream until your dream comes true...' :giggling:
Reply

Woodrow
09-11-2006, 08:03 PM
For the sake of the Ummah and the security of the mid-east it is essential that the Islamic countries establish an economy that is not dependant on oil. I believe that has been a missused gift. The oil rich Mid-eastern countries, had a product of great weath. but, they did not market it themselves. They were satisfied to have foreign investors buy it from them, come into their countries drill for it, build up the market. As a result they ended up with an economy based on the production and work of foreigners. Now they have great wealth, but the wealth is nearly 100% dependent on the presense of foreign investors. It is ironic that some of the countries with the most oil have to import gasoline, because few refineries were built to make it. The interest was to produce as much raw petroleum at the lowest production cost possible.

Some of the leaders in those countries are aware that the oil based economy is in it's final days. What will happen when there is no more oil to sell or trade? That day is in the very near future. Those countries have placed so much interest in the easy wealth that they have neglected to develop their own resources for the production of food and other necessities and as a result have become dependent on buying their needs from Western countries.

Many of those countries only have money, and it is of no use except to buy products from Western companies. Syria is possibly the only mideastern country that has even thought of using some resources to produce food. Many have now been backed into a corner were to uphold their own economy they need to lease out land to foreign military basis.

It is a mistake to use the gifts from Allah(swt) to try to achieve an easy, carefree secular life style, instead of using those gifts to share in the love of Allah(swt)

Oil has made a temporary easy life for many Mideasterners, but has made a very difficult road for their children to follow. It was a path of enjoy today for their own pleasures, but leave the children with no future.

When the oil ends it if they are not prepared it will mean either starvation or go the way of the Western world.

Iran saw that path and new that the future looks bleak. Now they need to find land they can dominate and use for food production. Iraq was one area they often looked at. At one time Iraq was a food producing nation. It would not surprise me if perhaps that is why they have eyes on Jordan, Lebannon, Syria, Palestine and Israel. that little cluster of countries, if used for food production could easily become the bread basket of the Mid-East. Food is of much greater value than oil.

That raises the Question, is Iran seeking military strength for self protection, or do they have eyes on Mid-East domination? That is a question that needs to be thought about and answered.
Reply

hongi
09-16-2006, 03:26 AM
The report said the bomber Saegheh is similar to the American F-18 fighter plane, but "more powerful." It also said the plane was "designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts."
I'm a bit of a plane buff myself (boys and their toys :) ). It's little more than an improved F-4 with minor structural changes. 15 years of home-grown 'improvement' and this is what they come up with?

It's a 50s design with some new tail fins. Oh dear.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-16-2006, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
Aerosmith said it best. 'Dream on, dream on, dream until your dream comes true...' :giggling:

Salaam,

Yes it is a dream but everyone will wake up one day,
as we rise at day break so we will all die on one day ,and on that day no matter what we do we will be judged for our deeds.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-16-2006, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
Let's not forget the U.S. carrier forces. :giggling:

Salaam,

Like i say,shuld the Islamic coutnries reject US aid and do not allow US airplanes to invade their territorial space,what then can the US do?

Nothing.

But now our leaders are there in bed with muslim murderers and say IT IS RIGHT.

Inshallah,their time will come and so will ours.
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-16-2006, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hongi
I'm a bit of a plane buff myself (boys and their toys :) ). It's little more than an improved F-4 with minor structural changes. 15 years of home-grown 'improvement' and this is what they come up with?

It's a 50s design with some new tail fins. Oh dear.

Salaam,

hmm did not see the picture myself,but minor chages to the areo dynamics of a plane can increase its ifficacy.


such modification is not done off hand but greatly invested with scietific data if not the airpalnes will just plow thru the sky and then drop flat.

as for the otehr chages ,there are no detials..

But agian,alhamdulilah,the Iranian are learnign to build by themselves and desing,Inshallah,they have the capability of self defence.
Reply

guyabano
09-17-2006, 08:38 AM
The report said the bomber Saegheh is similar to the American F-18 fighter plane, but "more powerful." It also said the plane was "designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts."
Hahaha, more powerful ? In what way? It have more Horse Power? What a joke !
Reply

Zulkiflim
09-18-2006, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hahaha, more powerful ? In what way? It have more Horse Power? What a joke !

Salaam,

I think that the kafir are fearful that a muslim coutnry can do such thing.

They desire to eitther scoff or disbelief and raise scorn.

If IRan is just using "marketing language" as a discourse towards the current threat of sanction and US invasive attitude,then it is a political propaganda.

The simple fact is that the scoffer and haters just cannot accept the idea of a techonologically advanced coutnry...for if they do then they MUSt talk in equal terms....

That is unacceptable for th kafirs..
Reply

Trumble
09-18-2006, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
The simple fact is that the scoffer and haters just cannot accept the idea of a techonologically advanced coutnry...for if they do then they MUSt talk in equal terms....

That is unacceptable for th kafirs..

I've no idea whether the plane is more "powerful" (by which I assume they do mean engine thrust) than an F-18 or not, there's no reason why it shouldn't be. No reason it couldn't have a bigger weapons load, either.

The real "simple fact" though is that when it comes to military combat aircraft there is only one "technologically advanced country", the United States. It has nothing to do with the numbers of researchers and engineers or their intellect (let alone their religion) but does have everything to do with money. The US are not only the only country who can afford to develop truly modern fighters, they are also the only country that can afford to build them. The F-22 is a quantum leap forward in fighter design, that can (and if required, will) shoot down anything else in the sky, 95% of the time without the victim even knowing they were there. But no other country can afford to buy them, or develop anything that could compete with them. "Equal terms" just 'ain't going to happen.
Reply

brainiac
09-18-2006, 07:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
) ... The F-22 is a quantum leap forward in fighter design...


And remember. If the U.S. is showing the public an advanced fighter like the F-22 Raptor, it has something even more advanced that it isn't showing. That's what is always flying around the desert, making people think they are seeing U.F.O.s'. It's not 'Men In Black', it's just good old Yankee ingenuity.;D
Reply

Trumble
09-18-2006, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by brainiac
And remember. If the U.S. is showing the public an advanced fighter like the F-22 Raptor, it has something even more advanced that it isn't showing. .;D
Nah, I think that era ended with the F-117 and the B-2. It's all about money again, so much is involved now it's impossible to sneak it through Congress disguised as something else!
Reply

brainiac
09-18-2006, 08:44 PM
http://www.janes.com/defence/news/ji...105_01_n.shtml

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
...it's impossible to sneak it through Congress disguised as something else!

Sure we can. There is a huge 'black budget.';D

In search of the Pentagon's billion dollar hidden budgets - how the US keeps its R&D spending under wraps

By Bill Sweetman

On 8 January last year, around 6.45pm, residents of Delaware in the US were startled by a sonic boom, strong enough to shake walls, rattle windows and cause the citizens to call their local police offices, demanding explanations. This particular speeder, however, could not only outrun any highway-patrol cruiser in Delaware, but was beyond the reach of anyone else in the state. Even the US Air Force, with its surveillance radars at Dover Air Force Base, was unable to identify the miscreant.

The incident was not isolated. A rudimentary data search turns up a stream of such incidents since the early 1990s, from Florida to Nebraska, Colorado and California, with a similar pattern: a loud and inexplicable boom. The phantom boomers appear to avoid densely populated areas, and the stories usually go no further than the local paper. Only a few local papers have a searchable website, so it is highly probable that only a minority of boom events are reported outside the affected area.

The first conclusion from this data is that supersonic aircraft are operating over US. Secondly, we may conclude that the USAF and other services either cannot identify them, or that they are misleading the public because the operations are secret.

The latter case is supported by the existence of a massive secret structure, which can truly be described as a 'shadow military', and which exists in parallel with the programs that the Department of Defense (DoD) discloses in public. It is protected by a security system of great complexity. Since 1995, two high-level commissions have reported on this system, and have concluded that it is too complex; that it is immensely expensive, although its exact costs defy measurement; that it includes systematic efforts to confuse and disinform the public; and that in some cases it favors security over military utility. The defense department, however, firmly resists any attempt to reform this system.



As the Clinton administration begins its last year in office, it continues to spend an unprecedented proportion of the Pentagon budget on 'black' programs - that is, projects that are so highly classified they cannot be identified in public. The total sums involved are relatively easy to calculate. In the unclassified version of the Pentagon's budget books, some budget lines are identified only by codenames. Other classified programs are covered by vague collective descriptions, and the dollar numbers for those line items are deleted. However, it is possible to estimate the total value of those items by subtracting the unclassified items from the category total.

In Financial Year 2001 (FY01), the USAF plans to spend US$4.96 billion on classified research and development programs. Because white-world R&D is being cut back, this figure is planned to reach a record 39% of total USAF R&D. It is larger than the entire army R&D budget and two-thirds the size of the entire navy R&D budget. The USAF's US$7.4 billion budget for classified procurement is more than a third of the service's total budget.

Rise and rise of SAP

Formally, black projects within the DoD are known as unacknowledged Special Access Programs (SAPs). The Secretary or Deputy Secretary of Defense must approve any DoD-related SAP at the top level of the defense department. All SAPs are projects that the DoD leadership has decided cannot be adequately protected by normal classification measures. SAPs implement a positive system of security control in which only selected individuals have access to critical information. The criteria for access to an SAP vary, and the program manager has ultimate responsibility for the access rules, but the limits are generally much tighter than those imposed by normal need-to-know standards.

For example, an SAP manager may insist on lie-detector testing for anyone who has access to the program. Another key difference between SAPs and normal programs concerns management and oversight. SAPs report to the services, and ultimately to the DoD and Congress, by special channels which involve a minimum number of individuals and organizations. In particular, the number of people with access to multiple SAPs is rigorously limited.

In 1997, according to the report of a Senate commission (the Senate Commission on Protecting and Reducing Government Secrecy), there were around 150 DoD-approved SAPs. These included SAPs initiated by the department and its branches and those initiated by other agencies (for example, the Central Intelligence Agency [CIA] or the Department of Energy) in which the DoD was involved. SAPs are divided into three basic types: acquisition (AQ-SAP), operations and support (OS-SAP) and intelligence (IN-SAP). Within each group are two major classes - acknowledged and unacknowledged.

Some of the acknowledged SAPs - most of them - started as unacknowledged programs. This is the case with the F-117 and B-2, and (on the operations side) with army's 160th Special Operations Air Regiment (SOAR). The existence of these programs is no longer a secret, but technical and operational details are subject to strict, program-specific access rules.

An unacknowledged SAP - a black program - is a program which is considered so sensitive that the fact of its existence is a 'core secret', defined in USAF regulations as "any item, progress, strategy or element of information, the compromise of which would result in unrecoverable failure". In other words, revealing the existence of a black program would undermine its military value.



The Joint Security Commission which was convened by then-deputy Secretary of Defense Bill Perry in 1993, and which reported in 1995, concluded that SAPs had been used extensively in the 1980s "as confidence in the traditional classification system declined". By the time the report was published, however, the DoD had taken steps to rationalize the process by which SAPs were created and overseen. Until 1994, each service had its own SAP office or directorate, which had primary responsibility for its programs. The Perry reforms downgraded these offices and assigned management of the SAPs to a new organization at defense department level. This is based on three directors of special programs, each of whom is responsible for one of the three groups of SAPs - acquisition, operations and intelligence. They report to the respective under-secretaries of defense (acquisition and technology, policy and C4ISR).

The near-US$5 billion in black programs in the USAF research and development budget are in the acquisition category. They are overseen within the DoD by Maj Gen Marshal H Ward, who is director of special programs in the office of Dr Jacques Gansler, under-secretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics. Gen Ward heads an SAP Coordination Office and, along with his counterparts in the policy and C4ISR offices, is part of an SAP Oversight Committee (SAPOC), chaired by the Deputy Secretary of Defense, John Hamre, with Dr Gansler as vice-chair. The SAPOC is responsible for approving new SAPs and changing their status; receiving reports on their status; and, among other things, making sure that SAPs do not overlap with each other. This was a major criticism in the 1995 report: "If an acquisition SAP is unacknowledged," the commissioners remarked, "others working in the same technology area may be unaware that another agency is developing a program. The government may pay several times over for the same technology or application developed under different special programs."



This problem was particularly prevalent in the case of stealth technology: in the lawsuit over the A-12 Avenger II program, McDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics charged that technology developed in other stealth programs would have solved some of the problems that led to the project's cancellation, but that the government did not supply it to the A-12 program. Today, Gen Ward is the DoD-wide overseer for all stealth technology programs. The SAPOC co-ordinates the reporting of SAPs to Congress. Whether SAPs are acknowledged or not, they normally report to four Congressional committees - the House National Security Committee, the Senate Armed Services Committee, and the defense subcommittees of the House and Senate Appropriations committees. Committee members and staffs are briefed in closed, classified sessions.

However, there are several serious limitations to Congressional reporting of SAPs. One of these is time. In the first quarter of 1999, the defense subcommittee of the House Appropriations committee scheduled half a day of hearings to review 150 very diverse SAPs. Another issue, related to time and security, is that the reporting requirements for SAPs are rudimentary and could technically be satisfied in a couple of pages.

A more substantial limitation on oversight is that some unacknowledged SAPs are not reported to the full committees. At the Secretary of Defense's discretion, the reporting requirements may be waived. In this case, only eight individuals - the chair and ranking minority member of each of the four defense committees - are notified of the decision. According to the 1997 Senate Commission, this notification may be only oral. These "waived SAPs" are the blackest of black programs.

How many of the SAPs are unacknowledged, and how many are waived, is a question which only a few people can answer: eight members of Congress, the members of SAPOC (including the Deputy Secretary of Defense), and the Secretary of Defense.



A final question is whether SAP reporting rules are followed all the time. Last summer, the House Defense Appropriations Committee complained that "the air force acquisition community continues to ignore and violate a wide range of appropriations practices and acquisition rules". One of the alleged infractions was the launch of an SAP without Congressional notification. In their day-to-day operations, SAPs enjoy a special status. An SAP manager has wide latitude in granting or refusing access, and because their principal reporting channel is to the appropriate DoD-level director of special programs. Each service maintains an SAP Central Office within the office of the service secretary, but its role is administrative - its primary task is to support SAP requests by individual program offices - and its director is not a senior officer.

Within the USAF, there are signs that SAPs form a 'shadow department' alongside the white-world programs. So far, no USAF special program director has gone on to command USAF Materiel Command (AFMC), AFMC's Aeronautical Systems Center (ASC), or their predecessor organizations. These positions have been dominated by white-world logistics experts. On the other hand, several of the vice-commanders in these organizations in the 1990s have previously held SAP oversight assignments, pointing to an informal convention under which the vice-commander, out of the public eye, deals with highly sensitive programs. The separation of white and black programs is further emphasized by arrangements known as 'carve-outs', which remove classified programs from oversight by defense-wide security and contract-oversight organizations.

Cover mechanisms



A similar parallel organization can be seen in the organization of the USAF's flight-test activities. The USAF Flight Test Center (AFFTC) has a main location at Edwards AFB, which supports most USAF flight-test programs. Some classified programs are carried out at Edwards' North Base, but the most secure and sensitive programs are the responsibility of an AFFTC detachment based at the secret flight-test base on the edge of the dry Groom Lake, Nevada, and known as Area 51. The USAF still refuses to identify the Area 51 base, referring to it only as an 'operating location near Groom Lake'. It is protected from any further disclosure by an annually renewed Presidential order.

Area 51's linkage to Edwards is a form of 'cover' - actions and statements which are intended to conceal the existence of a black program by creating a false impression in public. The 1995 Commission report concluded that cover was being over-used. While conceding that cover might be required for "potentially life-threatening, high-risk, covert operations", the report stated baldly that "these techniques also have increasingly been used for major acquisition and technology-based contracts to conceal the fact of the existence of a facility or activity". The report added that "one military service routinely uses cover mechanisms for its acquisition [SAPs], without regard to individual threat or need".

Cover mechanisms used by the DoD have included the original identification of the U-2 spyplane as a weather-research aircraft and the concealment of the CIA's Lockheed A-12 spyplane behind its acknowledged cousins, the YF-12 and SR-71. Another example of cover is the way in which people who work at Area 51 are nominally assigned to government or contractor organizations in the Las Vegas area, and commute to the base in unmarked aircraft.

After the first wave of 'skyquake' incidents hit Southern California in 1991*92, and preliminary results from US Geological Service seismologists suggested that they were caused by overflights of high-speed aircraft, the USAF's Lincoln Laboratory analyzed the signatures from one boom event and concluded that it was caused by navy fighter operations offshore. The confirmed DoD use of cover makes it impossible to tell whether the USAF report is genuine or a cover story. The fact that cover is extensively used to protect black programs adds weight to the theory that some white-world projects may, in fact, be intended as cover. One example is the X-30 National Aerospaceplane (NASP) project, which was launched in 1986, cut back in 1992 and terminated in 1994. In retrospect, the stated goal of NASP - to develop a single-stage-to-orbit vehicle based on air-breathing scramjet technology - seems ambitious and unrealistic.

Considered as a cover for a black-world hypersonic program, however, NASP was ideal. NASP provided a credible reason for developing new technologies - such as high-temperature materials and slush hydrogen - building and improving large test facilities, and even setting up production facilities for some materials. These activities would have been hard to conceal directly, and would have pointed directly to a classified hypersonic program without a cover story.

Vanishing project syndrome

Intentional cover is supported by two mechanisms, inherent in the structure of unacknowledged SAPs, that result in the dissemination of plausible but false data, or disinformation. Confronted with the unauthorized use of a program name or a specific question, an 'accessed' individual may deny all knowledge of a program - as he should, because its existence is a core secret, and a mere "no comment" is tantamount to confirmation. The questioner - who may not be aware that an accessed individual must respond with a denial - will believe that denial and spread it further.

Also, people may honestly believe that there are no black programs in their area of responsibility. For example, Gen George Sylvester, commander of Aeronautical Systems Division in 1977, was not 'accessed' into the ASD-managed Have Blue stealth program, even though he was nominally responsible for all USAF aircraft programs. Had he been asked whether Have Blue existed, he could have candidly and honestly denied it. Presented with a wall of denial, and with no way to tell the difference between deliberate and fortuitous disinformation, most of the media has abandoned any serious attempts to investigate classified programs.

The process of establishing an SAP is, logically, covert. To make the process faster and quieter, the DoD may authorize a Prospective SAP (P-SAP) before the program is formally reviewed and funded: the P-SAP may continue for up to six months. The P-SAP may account for the 'vanishing project syndrome' in which a promising project simply disappears off the scope. Possible examples include the ultra-short take-off and landing Advanced Tactical Transport, mooted in the late 1980s; and the A/F-X long-range stealth attack aircraft, ostensibly cancelled in 1993.

A further defense against disclosure is provided by a multi-level nomenclature system. All DoD SAPs have an unclassified nickname, which is a combination of two unclassified words such as Have Blue or Rivet Joint. (Have, Senior and Constant are frequently used as the first word in Air Force programs, Tractor in the army and Chalk in the navy.) Even in a program that has a standard designation, the SAP nickname may be used on badges and secured rooms to control access to information and physical facilities.

A DoD SAP may also have a one-word classified codename. In this case, full access to the project is controlled by the classified codename. The two-word nickname, in this case, simply indicates that a program exists, for budgetary, logistics or contractual purposes. The purpose, mission and technology of the project are known only to those who have been briefed at the codename level. Therefore, for example, Senior Citizen and Aurora could be one and the same.



Both the 1995 and 1997 panels recommended substantial changes to the classification system, starting with simplification and rationalization. SAPs are not the only category of classification outside the normal confidential/ secret/top secret system: the intelligence community classifies much of its product as Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) and the Department of Energy uses Restricted Data (RD) and Critical Nuclear Weapons Design Information (CNWDI). The panels called for a simplified system that would encompass SAPs, SCI and the DoE standards.

Both commissions also accused the DoD and other agencies of protecting too much material within special access boundaries, and doing so in an inconsistent manner. As the 1995 report put it: "Perhaps the greatest weakness in the entire system is that critical specially protected information within the various compartments is not clearly identified."

One general told the commission that an SAP was like "trying to protect every blade of grass on a baseball field. He had to have a hundred players to guard the entire field, when only four persons to protect home plate would suffice."

Different services used different standards to determine how and when to establish SAPs, according to the 1995 commission. In one case, two services and the DoE were running concurrent programs with the same technology. One military service classified its program as Top Secret Special Access and protected it with armed guards. The other military service classified its program as Secret Special Access with little more than tight need-to-know protection applied. The DoE classified its program as Secret, adopting discretionary need-to-know procedures. "This problem is not uncommon", the report remarked.

The commission gave up on efforts to measure the direct costs of security, saying that "no one has a good handle on what security really costs". Direct costs, the commission estimated, ranged from 1% to 3% of total operating costs in an acknowledged SAP, and from 3% to 10% on a black project, although one SAP program manager estimated security costs could be as high as 40% of total operating costs. The commission found that there was no way to estimate the indirect costs of security, such as the lost opportunities to rationalize programs.



The 1995 commission also pointed out that the military utility of a breakthrough technology is limited if commanders do not know how to use it. A senior officer on the Joint Staff remarked that "we still treat certain capabilities as pearls too precious to wear - we acknowledge their value, but because of their value, we lock them up and don't use them for fear of losing them". The report implied that the SAP world keeps field commanders in the dark until the systems are ready for use and even then, "they are put under such tight constraints that they are unable to use [SAP products] in any practical way".



Risk management

Both the DoD's own commission and the later Senate commission pushed for a simpler system, with more consistent rules, and based on the principle of risk management: that is, focusing security efforts to protect the information that is most likely to be targeted and would be most damaging if compromised.

Since 1995, the US Government has declassified some programs. Northrop's Tacit Blue, a prototype for a battlefield surveillance aircraft, was unveiled in 1996, but it had made its last flight in 1985 and had not led to an operational aircraft. The USAF publicly announced the acquisition of MiG-29s from Moldova in 1998 - however, the previous history of the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron, which has flown Soviet combat aircraft from Area 51 since the 1970s, remains classified.

Some recent programs appear to combine an unclassified and a SAP element. One example is the Boeing X-36 unmanned test aircraft. The X-36 itself was disclosed in March 1996, when it was nearly complete: at the time, it was a McDonnell Douglas project, and it clearly resembled the company's proposed Joint Strike Fighter design. However, it was also a subscale test vehicle for an agile, very-low-observables combat aircraft, incorporating a still-classified thrust vectoring system with an externally fixed nozzle. The nozzle itself remains classified, and it is likely that a full-scale radar cross-section model of the design was also built under a secret program.

Another hybrid is the USAF's Space Maneuver Vehicle (SMV), originated by Rockwell but a Boeing project. This appears to have been black before 1997, with the designation X-40. (The USAF has reserved the designations X-39 to X-42 for a variety of programs.) A subscale, low-speed test vehicle was revealed in that year; it was described as the Miniature Spaceplane Technology (MiST) demonstrator and was designated X-40A, a suffix that usually indicates the second derivative of an X-aircraft. Late last year, Boeing was selected to develop a larger SMV test vehicle under NASA's Future-X program - this effort is unclassified, and is designated X-37. The question is whether the USAF is still quietly working on a full-scale X-40 to explore some of the SMV's military applications, including space control and reconnaissance.

Another indication of greater openness is the fact that the three reconnaissance unmanned air vehicle (UAV) programs launched in 1994*95 - the Predator, DarkStar and Global Hawk - were unclassified. The General Atomics Gnat 750, which preceded the Predator, was placed in service under a CIA black program, and the DarkStar and Global Hawk, between them, were designed as a substitute for a very large, long-endurance stealth reconnaissance UAV developed by Boeing and Lockheed and cancelled in 1993. However, the budget numbers indicate that unacknowledged SAPs are very much alive. Neither has the DoD taken any drastic steps to rationalize the security system. Recent revelations over the loss of data from DoE laboratories have placed both Congress and Administration in a defensive posture, and early reform is unlikely.

A telling indication of the state of declassification, however, was the release in 1998 of the CIA's official history of the U-2 program. It is censored to remove any mention of the location of the program. However, an earlier account of the U-2 program, prepared with the full co-operation of Lockheed and screened for security, includes a photo of the Area 51 ramp area. It shows hangars that can still be located on overhead and ground-to-ground shots of the base, together with terrain that can be correlated with ridgelines in the Groom Lake area.

However, the DoD has opposed legislation - along the lines of the 1997 Senate report - that would simplify the current system and create an independent authority to govern declassification.

In the summer of 1999, Deputy Defense Secretary John Hamre said that the DoD was opposed to the entire concept of writing all security policies into law, because it would make the system less flexible. The DoD is also against the idea of a "balance of public interest" test for classification. Another major concern was that an independent oversight office would be cognizant of all SAPs.

Hans Mark, director for defense research and engineering, defended the current level of SAP activity in his confirmation hearing in June 1998. SAPs, Mark said, "enable the DoD to accomplish very sensitive, high payoff acquisition, intelligence, and operational activities". Without them, he said, "many of these activities would not be possible, and the effectiveness of the operational forces would be reduced as a result. I am convinced that special access controls are critical to the success of such highly sensitive activities."



Industry's role

Not only have SAPs held their ground, but their philosophy has also spread to other programs and agencies. NASA's 'faster, better, cheaper' approach to technology demonstration and space exploration has been brought to the agency by its administrator, Dan Goldin, who was previously involved with SAPs with TRW. The Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration (ACTD) programs conducted by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are also based on similar principles to SAPs. In some cases - such as Frontier Systems' A160 long-endurance helicopter demonstrator - DARPA contractors are providing effective security outside a formal SAP framework.



SAPs are visible in the prosperity of special-program organizations within industry. Boeing's Phantom Works, founded in 1992 on the basis of existing black-program work at McDonnell Douglas but with an added emphasis on low-cost prototyping, has been expanded by the new Boeing to include facilities and people at Palmdale and Seattle. While the headquarters of the Phantom Works is being moved to Seattle, this move directly affects only a small staff, and the St Louis operation still appears to be active. Its main white-world program has been the construction of the forward fuselages of the X-32 prototypes, but this only occupies one of many secure hangar bays. The X-32 prototypes are being assembled at Palmdale, in a hangar divided by a high curtain. Another test vehicle is being assembled in the same hangar, behind a high curtain, and background music plays constantly to drown out any telltale conversations.

In the early 1980s, Boeing expanded its military-aircraft activities and built large new facilities - including an engineering building and indoor RCS range at Boeing Field - which were specifically designed to support SAPs, with numerous, physically separate 'vaults' to isolate secure programs from each other. Boeing's black-projects team at Seattle is considered to be one of the best in the industry.

Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works has changed in character since the 1970s. The original Advanced Development Projects (ADP) unit was built around a core group of engineering leaders, who would tap people and resources from the 'white-world' Lockheed-California company when they were needed. In the 1980s, the Skunk Works grew in size and importance, while Lockheed-California diminished. Today, the Skunk Works is a large, stand-alone organization with 4,000-plus employees. As far as the world knows, its output in the past 10 years comprises two YF-22 prototypes, parts of two DarkStar prototypes, the X-33 RLV and the two X-35 JSF demonstrators.



In mid-1999, Lockheed Martin disclosed that a new advanced-technology organization had been set up within the Skunk Works, headed by veteran engineer Ed Glasgow, to explore the potential or revolutionary technologies. In the unclassified realm, these include a hybrid heavy-lift vehicle combining lighter-than-air and aerodynamic principles, and a supersonic-cruise vehicle with design features that virtually eliminate a sonic boom signature on the ground.

The Skunk Works' renown has overshadowed another Lockheed Martin organization with a long-standing connection with SAPs, located within Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems (LMTAS) at Fort Worth. This group has existed since the late 1950s, when General Dynamics sought special-programs work to keep its engineering workforce together between major projects. Notable projects include Kingfish, which was the ramjet-powered rival to Lockheed's A-12 Blackbird and continued in development into the early 1960s, and the RB-57F, a drastically modified Canberra designed for high-altitude reconnaissance missions.

Big safari

More recently, the group worked on early stealth concepts - including the design which led to the Navy's A-12 Avenger II attack aircraft - and has modified transport-type aircraft for sensitive reconnaissance missions under the USAF's Big Safari program.

Northrop Grumman's major involvement in manned-aircraft SAPs may be winding down as the Pico Rivera plant - which housed the B-2 program - is closed down and its workforce disperses. However, the company's acquisitions in 1999, including Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical (TRA) and California Microwave, indicate that it will remain a force in UAV programs, including SAPs. TRA has a long association with SAPs and SAP-like programs, dating back to Vietnam-era reconnaissance UAVs and the AQM-91 Firefly high-altitude, low-observable reconnaissance drone tested in the early 1970s.

Raytheon has acquired important SAP operations through acquisitions. The former Hughes missile operation was presumably involved in the classified air-breathing AMRAAM variant that was apparently used in Operation 'Desert Storm', and in subsequent extended-range air-to-air missile programs. Texas Instruments developed the ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System pod under a black program between 1991 and 1993, when it was unveiled. (HTS was a classic example of a 'vanishing' program: briefly mentioned in early 1990, it turned black shortly afterwards.) The former E-Systems has been heavily involved in intelligence programs since its formation.

Next stealth

One likely strategic goal of current SAPs is the pursuit of what one senior engineer calls "the next stealth" - breakthrough technologies that provide a significant military advantage. Examples could include high-speed technology - permitting reconnaissance and strike aircraft to cruise above M4*5 - and visual and acoustic stealth measures, which could re-open the airspace below 15,000ft (4,600m) to manned and unmanned aircraft.

The existence of high-supersonic aircraft projects has been inferred from sighting reports, the repeated, unexplained sonic booms over the US and elsewhere, the abrupt retirement of the SR-71 and from the focus of white-world programs, such as NASP and follow-on research efforts such as the USAF's HyTech program. The latter have consistently been aimed at gathering data on speeds in the true hypersonic realm - well above M6, where subsonic-combustion ramjets give way to supersonic-combustion ramjets (scramjets) - implying that speeds from M3 to M6 present no major unsolved challenges.

One researcher in high-speed technology has confirmed to IDR that he has seen what appear to be photographs of an unidentified high-speed aircraft, obtained by a US publication. In a recent sighting at Area 51, a group of observers claim to have seen a highly blended slender-delta aircraft which closely resembles the aircraft seen over the North Sea in August 1999. Visual stealth measures were part of the original Have Blue program, and one prototype was to have been fitted with a counter-illumination system to reduce its detectability against a brightly lit sky. However, both prototypes were lost before either could be fitted with such a system. More recent work has focused on electrochromic materials - flat panels which can change color or tint when subjected to an electrical charge - and Lockheed Martin Skunk Works is known to have co-operated with the DoE's Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory on such materials.

Yet, the plain fact is that the public and the defense community at large have little idea of what has been achieved in unacknowledged SAPs since the early 1980s. Tacit Blue, the most recently declassified product of the black-aircraft world, actually traces its roots to the Ford Administration. If nothing else, the dearth of hard information since that time, shows that the SAP system - expensive, unwieldy and sometimes irrational as it might seem - keeps its secrets well. Whatever rattled the dinner tables of Delaware a year ago may remain in the shadows for many years.

'The government may pay several times over for the same technology or application developed under different special programs'

'Presented with a wall of denial, most of the media has abandoned any serious attempts to investigate classified programs'


In the late 1980s, this large hangar * with an uninterrupted opening around 60m wide and over 20m high * was constructed at Area 51, the USAF's secret flight test center at Groom Lake, Nevada. The project that it was built to house remains secret.



The threat of armed force is used routinely to protect classified programs. Area 51 is defended by a force of armed security personnel who work for a civilian contractor and by helicopter patrols, and the eastern border of the site is ringed with electronic sensors.

Northrop's Tacit Blue, an experimental low-observable aircraft designed to carry a Hughes battlefield-surveillance radar, was tested at Area 51 in 1982-85 and unveiled in 1996. Although the program originated under the Ford Administration, it is the most recent classified manned-aircraft program to have been disclosed.



The Boeing X-36 unmanned prototype started as a Special Access Program and was partly declassified in 1996 so that McDonnell Douglas could use its technology in its Joint Strike Fighter proposal. Some aspects of its design * including its use of stealth technology and its thrust-vectoring exhaust * remain classified.


Shoulder patch from the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron (TES), the covert USAF unit which has tested numerous Soviet aircraft at Area 51.

Boeing's X-37 spaceplane, being developed for NASA, was originally designed by Rockwell and supported by the USAF as a special access program. The designation X-40 applies to its military variants.


The now-cancelled Lockheed Martin/ Boeing DarkStar may have been a scaled-down version of a large, long-endurance stealth reconnaissance UAV which was cancelled in 1993 after at least $1 billion had been spent on its development.


The Lockheed YF-12C reconnaissance aircraft was disclosed before its first flight, but its testing and operation was used to mask the existence of its covert precursor, the CIA's A-12. The latter was not disclosed until 1982, 14 years after its retirement.

The Soviet Union was presumably aware of the location of Area 51 by the early 1960s, when its first reconnaissance satellites began to survey the United States. However, the Pentagon continues to avoid acknowledging its existence.

© 2006 Jane's Information Group.


I'm happy to know this is still being done !!:happy:
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-02-2014, 07:11 AM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-05-2008, 01:27 PM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-15-2006, 11:35 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!