If we are all theists, why are we following secular laws??

[QuranStudy]

This makes no sense. Are secular laws bringing us under good light under God?? These laws make no
sense. If people followed their own religion, then there would ne no needs of seperation between "church
as state." The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion. A coherent community based on a religion would ensure peace and unity. There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington. Utopia is impoosible, but we can get one step closer to it via seperation of nations in terms of homogeneous Empires based on religion. Imn this way, all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture. Remember, God is greater.

[Jayda]

i would like to live somewhere run by catholic laws...

[Keltoi]

A Jewish United States? Why should there be a Jewish U.S.?

Anyway, the United States is a land of many peoples and many religions held together by a concept of personal freedom. If you don't want to live in a secular state, don't live there. I see no conflict between my faith and the freedom of my neighbor to worship a statue of a garden gnome if he so wishes.

[QuranStudy]

A Jewish United States? Why should there be a Jewish U.S.?

Because Jew control the United States. Even Ariel Sharon admitted the Jews control America. Might as well be their homeland :D

Anyway, the United States is a land of many peoples and many religions held together by a concept of personal freedom. If you don't want to live in a secular state, don't live there.

Yeah, that is why the clash of civilizations will end then world. Crusades, World Wars, Boxer rebellion, Sepoy Mutiny etc etc are just epitomes of this notion.

I see no conflict between my faith and the freedom of my neighbor to worship a statue of a garden gnome if he so wishes.

You cannot rule out the fact that religion do play a role in American politics. Wealthy evengelicals have great influence. No wonder why gay marriage and abotion is illegal and the govt refuse to fund stem cell research.

btw, IDK about Christianity, but most religions do tolerate other faiths.

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[QuranStudy]

At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying "every time we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/Sharon3.html

[Woodrow]

This makes no sense. Are secular laws bringing us under good light under God?? These laws make no
sense. If people followed their own religion, then there would ne no needs of seperation between "church
as state." The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion. A coherent community based on a religion would ensure peace and unity. There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington. Utopia is impoosible, but we can get one step closer to it via seperation of nations in terms of homogeneous Empires based on religion. Imn this way, all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture. Remember, God is greater.

I am just curious as to why you refer to it a Jewish United State? There may more Muslims here than Jews. the numbers are difficult to count. The general opinion is there are at least 5 million, but it is probably much more. Also the USA Muslims tend to have above average income than any other emographic group and are rapidly becoming a political power.

Based on tallies of mosque membership and Muslim names, several national organizations estimate there are 4.5 million to 6 million American Muslims. Most live in a dozen big states, giving them the potential to make a difference in tight races. Aslam Abdullah, editor of the weekly Muslim Observer newspaper, says there are about 15 close races for Congress in districts where Muslims are concentrated and could cast decisive votes.

Source:http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...tm?csp=19_wxia

The largest community of Jews live in the USA with 5,7 million. Many live in Eastern Europe and Western Europe, and there are between 200,000 and 300,000 on the African continent.

source: http://i-cias.com/e.o/judaism.htm


Muslims and the 2002 Midterm Elections


Muslims mainly voted Republican in 2000 because they have viewed the Democrats as the "party of welfare" and "loose morality." They supported Bush due to their resentment of "welfare," "taxes," and "social programs."

However, many Muslims admitted to me that their vote for Bush was a "big mistake." I doubt that they will vote Republican for a while. Post 9/11, Muslims realized that many individuals in the GOP share the same contempt for them that Republicans exhibit toward other minority groups, such as Blacks and Hispanics.

Muslims receive and resent derision from too many GOP leaders, and may well catapult Democrats to victory on Tuesday.

An article in the Christian Science Monitor explains, "A new study finds [Muslims are] wealthy, educated, growing fast. But old suspicion from 9/11 complicates their plight."

The same policies Bush is using to solidify his base and control the national dialogue undermine his support in a little-appreciated demographic. As the CSM reports:

"The aftermath of Sept. 11 and tension with Iraq has exposed a dual response to Muslims living here. There's both suspicion and outreach -- discrimination and efforts to bridge the religious divide."

Muslims represent a key, growing voting bloc.

"While no one knows how many Muslims live in the US -- estimates span 1.2 million to 10 million -- their numbers are growing fast. Between 1990 and 2000, the Muslim-origin population grew 40 percent, according to the new study by the Lewis Mumford Center for Comparative Urban and Regional Research at New York's University at Albany. And they're more integrated than larger minorities."

Their geographic concentration focuses Muslim voting power. "Four metropolitan regions -- Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington -- boast more than 100,000 American Muslims. A decade earlier, only Los Angeles could make that claim. Detroit's population includes more Muslims than virtually any city. But much smaller Jersey City, NJ, which saw a doubling of its Muslim population in the 1990s, now boasts the identical concentration: 2.8 percent."

Still, Muslim voters don't register on the pundits' radar screens. "Socioeconomic factors also make Muslims largely invisible here. They typically live in neighborhoods that are only 4.5 percent Muslim, according to the Mumford study, although that's changing as their numbers grow and they begin to create enclaves. Still, American Muslims are far less geographically segregated than Hispanics or African Americans."

Muslims enjoy "higher socioeconomic status" than other minority groups.

"On average, Muslims live in households earning $50,000 annually -- more than any significant minority except Asian, and only $2,000 less than non-Hispanic whi 1000 te households, according to Mumford data. American Muslims have lower poverty rates than either blacks or Hispanics, and more years of education than any of these groups, including whites and Asians."
See "America's elusive minority: Muslims," Laurent Belsie, The Christian Science Monitor: October 7, 2002: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1007/p02s01-ussc.html

Source:http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Wil..._Victory.shtml

Although the vast majority of American citizens profess to be Christian. Muslims are making fast and powerfull in roads. I would suspect that there is more of a possibility for the USA to become an Islamic Nation than for it to become a Jewish Nation. The Muslim community is becoming politicaly active and in some areas does control the final vote.

[Keltoi]

Please stop using bogus Ariel Sharon qutoes.

Could you please elaborate on how the Crusades, World Wars, The Chinese Boxer Rebellion, etc have to do with the personal freedom?

The Constitution doesn't prohibit religious influence in American politic, it prohibits a nationalized religious institution.

[Jayda]

Because Jew control the United States. Even Ariel Sharon admitted the Jews control America. Might as well be their homeland :D

by that reasoning idi amin was king of scotland

[QuranStudy]

I am just curious as to why you refer to it a Jewish United State? There may more Muslims here than Jews. the numbers are difficult to count. The general opinion is there are at least 5 million, but it is probably much more. Also the USA Muslims tend to have above average income than any other emographic group and are rapidly becoming a political power.

It doesnt really matter if they'r more Muslims in USA. The fact is that Jews have way more influence on American politics. American stromg pro-Israeli position affirms this. The Jews have more interest groups and lobby power (AIPAC) than any Muslim group. Jews also own the large business and corporations. And let's not forget that the Jews own the media. Thus, the United States is well suited for Jews, despite their small population. Also note that there are more Jews in New York than the entire of Israel.

The Muslim community is becoming politicaly active and in some areas does control the final vote.

Muslims here are not powerful at all. President Bush's classic "Islamofascist" labelling clearly exemplifies this.

Please stop using bogus Ariel Sharon qutoes.

Bogus?? Can you prove this?? Googling this quote will give you hundreds of results.

Could you please elaborate on how the Crusades, World Wars, The Chinese Boxer Rebellion, etc have to do with the personal freedom?

I used those events to epitomize the notion of "clash of civilizations." A very similar thing is going on today (West vs. Islamic world).

The Constitution doesn't prohibit religious influence in American politic, it prohibits a nationalized religious institution.

Yes, that is why we have "One Nation under God" in our money and plege of allegiance. Gimme a break.

[Keltoi]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...66&x_context=2

here is a link debunking the so-called quote, along with many others. It won't change your mind, but there it is.

Now back on topic. "One Nation Under God" is an expression of the Christian nature of the country at the time of its creation. However, the founding fathers did not support a religious institution, such as the Church of the United States. That is what the separation of church and state is all about, stopping a religious institution from having too much influence on government. This doesn't mean that religious people cannot run for office or lobby politicians to consider their religious beliefs in decisions made.

[QuranStudy]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...66&x_context=2

here is a link debunking the so-called quote, along with many others. It won't change your mind, but there it is.

What makes your source anymore credible that the hundreds of sources that claim otherwise??

Now back on topic. "One Nation Under God" is an expression of the Christian nature of the country at the time of its creation.

And this still exists.

However, the founding fathers did not support a religious institution, such as the Church of the United States. That is what the separation of church and state is all about, stopping a religious institution from having too much influence on government. This doesn't mean that religious people cannot run for office or lobby politicians to consider their religious beliefs in decisions made.

Just because they're no religious institution in govt. doesnt mean that religion is important. Our pledge of allegiance, for instance, illustrates this. Inherently, religion is essential. A presidential candidate with atheistic beliefs will never become president.

[wilberhum]

One of the negative affects of religion is that some theists feel that they should not have to coexist with people of different faiths. It is just another form of serration. No different than saying all Blacks have to back to Africa. No White should have to live next to a Black, no Black should have to live next to a Brown, no Brown should have to live next to a Yellow, and no Yellow should have to live next to a White. It is nothing but racial bigotry and what you propose is nothing but religious bigotry. By the way I link my Black, Brown, Yellow, and White friends. I judge people by there actions, not what color they are.

I don’t understand what “makes no sense”. Who would ever think that “secular laws would bring us under good light under God”? Secular does not address the issue of god. “If people followed their own religion, then there would be no needs of separation between "church and state”.” What a statement. Like everyone agrees on what the religious laws are? You probably couldn’t get every one on the same block to agree, ever if they belong to the same religion. What was so grate about the “Middle Ages”? Just like all other times in history, there were wars ever where. People will always fight. They always have and always will. Separation will not change that. “A Jewish United States”? You can go ahead and move. I like where I live. But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.
I like my Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, and Agnostic friends. I wish I had a Buddhist friend. For me, religion is not a prerequisite for friendship. I judge people by there actions, not what name they call god by. If you only have Muslim friends, I feel sorry for you. You must live in a tiny little box. I can’t imagine living in the drab world you want. Give me diversity. I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

Instead of wanting to rearrange the whole world, why not practice a little tolerance.

[Woodrow]

Just because they're no religious institution in govt. doesnt mean that religion is important. Our pledge of allegiance, for instance, illustrates this. Inherently, religion is essential. A presidential candidate with atheistic beliefs will never become president.

Off hand I can not remember who, but several Historians have expressed a Belief that Lincoln was an Atheist.

Actually that may have happened twice already.

Presidents without church affiliation
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson

source: http://www.heptune.com/preslist.html#religions

[QuranStudy]

Off hand I can not remember who, but several Historians have expressed a Belief that Lincoln was an Atheist.

Actually that may have happened twice already.

Presidents without church affiliation
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson

But they didnt express their atheistc view like Moa or Stalin.That is why it's no more than speculation.

[Woodrow]

But they didnt express their atheistc view like Moa or Stalin.That is why it's no more than speculation.

That is true. However, think back in the 1860's in America not stating a religous affiliation would have been considered atheism by many if not most Americans. It was a very powerfull and unheard of thing to do in those times. Would be very similar to having the King Of Saudi saying he has no religous affiliation.

[`Abd al-Azeez]

:sl:

Well alot of our laws (ours as in America) are based on the Bible, kind of.

:w:

[QuranStudy]

One of the negative affects of religion is that some theists feel that they should not have to coexist with people of different faiths. It is just another form of serration. No different than saying all Blacks have to back to Africa. No White should have to live next to a Black, no Black should have to live next to a Brown, no Brown should have to live next to a Yellow, and no Yellow should have to live next to a White. It is nothing but racial bigotry and what you propose is nothing but religious bigotry. By the way I link my Black, Brown, Yellow, and White friends. I judge people by there actions, not what color they are.

When did I suggest segregation by race??

I don’t understand what “makes no sense”. Who would ever think that “secular laws would bring us under good light under God”? Secular does not address the issue of god.

That the point! There also anti-Islamic laws in secular countries. For instance, you cannot wear hijaab in France.

What a statement. Like everyone agrees on what the religious laws are? You probably couldn’t get every one on the same block to agree, ever if they belong to the same religion.

Of course you can. All laws based on holy scriptures and nothing more. Don't compare Iran to an ideal Muslim state. The President is pscho.

What was so grate about the “Middle Ages”? Just like all other times in history, there were wars ever where. People will always fight. They always have and always will. Separation will not change that. “A Jewish United States”? You can go ahead and move. I like where I live. But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.

A more ordered society. Did you ever hear about the Bubonic Plague?? The Jews were punished for it. That is what you get when cultures clash. Darwin's "survival of the fittest" applied to society.

But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.

No it will not be good. Western culture has already smeared it's stain in the ME. And the leaders there seemed to be smoking pot.

I judge people by there actions, not what name they call god by. If you only have Muslim friends, I feel sorry for you. You must live in a tiny little box. I can’t imagine living in the drab world you want.

A community should be limited to people of the same religion. Only then can real peace be achieved. People are born innocent but grow sinful.

I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

I dont. Western culture is nothing more than greed, sex, alcohol, racism, and defiance to God. It's the past and present.

Give me diversity. I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

For heaven's sake, just look at China and Japan! It's their lack of diversity that makes them so stable and coherent. Diversity equates hostility.

Instead of wanting to rearrange the whole world, why not practice a little tolerance.

Intolerance is human nature.

That is true. However, think back in the 1860's in America not stating a religous affiliation would have been considered atheism by many if not most Americans. It was a very powerfull and unheard of thing to do in those times. Would be very similar to having the King Of Saudi saying he has no religous affiliation.

A person with no religious affiliation is not necessarilly an atheists. There are also freelance theists in theis world. Only the religiously adept should rule. That is why Saudi Arabia is such a mess. The King is a fool who's doing disservice to humanity and Islam with his selfishness.

[therebbe]

more Jews in New York than the entire of Israel.

Wrong.

There are 1.5 Million Jews in New York and around 5.5 Million Jews in Israel. All The Jews want is Israel and most Jews are willig to die over the land. We could care less about having the whole United States lol. The reason most Jews are in USA are because our family in Holocaust camps were sent to the USA by US army.

[QuranStudy]

There are 1.5 Million Jews in New York and around 5.5 Million Jews in Israel.

Fine. But we can agree that there are more Jews in United States (approx. 5.7 million) than in Israel (5.2 million).

[therebbe]

Fine. But we can agree that there are more Jews in United States (approx. 5.7 million) than in Israel (5.2 million).

Correct. But Israel's Jewish population is exploding at a much higher birth rate than the USA's because more secular Jews live in the US while the religious Jews like myself make up a lot more in Israel and average around 8 kids amking the population explode.

The largest religious Jewish community of the US is in New York though.

[Jayda]

yes!! lol i love all the jewish delis here... the stage deli is my favorite (over by sheraton towers)

[QuranStudy]

All The Jews want is Israel and most Jews are willig to die over the land. We could care less about having the whole United States lol. The reason most Jews are in USA are because our family in Holocaust camps were sent to the USA by US army.

Then how come there are more Jews here than in Israel?? Jews love Israel, but they love their influence in Americans more.

[wilberhum]

QuranStudy
Well it is obvious that you should rap your self in a little box and keep away all that “Dirty Little Stuff”. You are quite laughable when you say

For heaven's sake, just look at China and Japan! It's their lack of diversity that makes them so stable and coherent. Diversity equates hostility.

You have to ignore a lot of history to make a statement like that.

[QuranStudy]

You have to ignore a lot of history to make a statement like that.

History??? Just go try to live there and experience the odd dicrimination!!

[Keltoi]

Japan and China have a tendency to be xenophobic, but speaking from my trip to Japan, I can't say that I experienced any discrimination.

[wilberhum]

History??? Just go try to live there and experience the odd dicrimination!!

Sad little boy. I lived in Tokyo for a year. It was wonderfull. I still have friends there. You will never understand what you miss living in your little box.

[Keltoi]

Sad little boy. I lived in Tokyo for a year. It was wonderfull. I still have friends there. You will never understand what you miss living in your little box.

That was my point too, I loved my time in Japan. Granted it wasn't a year, but I found the people to be very helpful and generous.

[duskiness]

This makes no sense.

For me as a christian it makes a lot of sense: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
And for me as a law student it aslo makes a lot of sense. There is no religious law that is complex enought to "work" in XXI.

I dont. Western culture is nothing more than greed, sex, alcohol, racism, and defiance to God. It's the past and present.

it's much more, but maybe that's all you know about western culture
n.

[Woodrow]

Then how come there are more Jews here than in Israel?? Jews love Israel, but they love their influence in Americans more.

But out of the 13 Million Jews World wide, Over 7 million do not live in the USA. The majority do live in North Africa, Israel and the Muslim countries.

Some of the Jews that remain in the USA have family trees that go back for many generations as American Citizens. The rest were dumped here after WW2 and do not have the resources to leave. To be honest I do not know very many Jews personaly, but the ones I do know would love to move to Israel if they were financealy able.

[wilberhum]

That was my point too, I loved my time in Japan. Granted it wasn't a year, but I found the people to be very helpful and generous.

I lived in Australia, Italy, India, and Japan. In the US I have lived in the North, South, East, West, and Central. The nicest kindest most considerate people I have ever met was the Japenese.

[QuranStudy]

But out of the 13 Million Jews World wide, Over 7 million do not live in the USA. The majority do live in North Africa, Israel and the Muslim countries.

There is probably as many Jews in the Unites States as in the Middle East. And Jews control most of the powerful assets her, including the media and banking.

To be honest I do not know very many Jews personaly, but the ones I do know would love to move to Israel if they were financealy able.

Probably more Jews want to come here than Jews want to go there.

I lived in Australia, Italy, India, and Japan. In the US I have lived in the North, South, East, West, and Central. The nicest kindest most considerate people I have ever met was the Japenese.

Japanese society, with its ideology of homogeneity, has traditionally been intolerant of ethnic and other differences. People identified as different might be considered "polluted" —- the category applied historically to the outcasts of Japan, particularly the hisabetsu buraku, "discriminated communities," often called burakumin, a term some find offensive —- and thus not suitable as marriage partners or employees. Men or women of mixed ancestry, those with family histories of certain diseases, and foreigners, and members of minority groups faced discrimination in a variety of forms.

Source: Wikipedia

[therebbe]

Then how come there are more Jews here than in Israel?? Jews love Israel, but they love their influence in Americans more.

Because we were basically put there by Americans. Most Ashkenzaim Jews (European) are in America while most Israelis are either Sephardic (Spain, Turkey) or Mizrahi (Israel or other ME countries where they were riots against them as they fled.)

Probably more Jews want to come here than Jews want to go there.

Wrong.

Thousands of Jews from the USA make Aliyah (move to israel) each year. Another reason why the population of Jews in the States does not grow so fast.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...66&x_context=2

here is a link debunking the so-called quote, along with many others. It won't change your mind, but there it is.

Now back on topic. "One Nation Under God" is an expression of the Christian nature of the country at the time of its creation. However, the founding fathers did not support a religious institution, such as the Church of the United States. That is what the separation of church and state is all about, stopping a religious institution from having too much influence on government. This doesn't mean that religious people cannot run for office or lobby politicians to consider their religious beliefs in decisions made.

:sl:

Haha. Dont quote that site mate. That is a zionist site that claims it is 'debunking' quotes. It is a very biased site. Perhaps you should watch this eh?:

Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=peace&hl=en

[therebbe]

Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land

And thats an anti-zionist site... why should that be a reliable source?

mean while, any site that does not go to your liking seems to be "zionist"... :rollseyes

[QuranStudy]

mean while, any site that does not go to your liking seems to be "zionist"...

The fact to the matter is that Ariel Sharon did say that the Jewish people control America. "We the Jewish people control America."

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

And thats an anti-zionist site... why should that be a reliable source?

mean while, any site that does not go to your liking seems to be "zionist"... :rollseyes

mean while, any site that does not go to your liking seems to be "anti-zionist"...

oh and by the way, that isnt a site, its a video.

[therebbe]

mean while, any site that does not go to your liking seems to be "anti-zionist"...

Exactly. Now you seem to be understanding your own logic.

oh and by the way, that isnt a site, its a video.

It is propaganda and historical inaccuracies.

[wilberhum]

Japanese society, with its ideology of homogeneity, has traditionally been intolerant of ethnic and other differences. People identified as different might be considered "polluted" —- the category applied historically to the outcasts of Japan, particularly the hisabetsu buraku, "discriminated communities," often called burakumin, a term some find offensive —- and thus not suitable as marriage partners or employees. Men or women of mixed ancestry, those with family histories of certain diseases, and foreigners, and members of minority groups faced discrimination in a variety of forms.

Source: Wikipedia

A vary tipical pre 1945 accurate attatued about Japan. How ever little of that attatude remains today. Not a perfect society by any means. Just the best that I have ever lived in.

[QuranStudy]

Not a perfect society by any means. Just the best that I have ever lived in.

Prolly since white (assuming you're white) people make up less than .0001% of their population.

[wilberhum]

Prolly since white (assuming you're white) people make up less than .0001% of their population.

I am Caucasian. In the work group there were Indians, Mexicans, and some Europeans. Our ethnic origin was never a question or a problem. But then I wasn’t going to marry someone’s daughter either. Only one (there were about 20 foreign nationals) didn’t like Tokyo. He didn’t like it because of the people. Not the quality, just the quantity. Other than him, everyone I still keep in contact with, would love to go back.

You will never know what you are missing if you stay in your little box.

[QuranStudy]

You will never know what you are missing if you stay in your little box.

I wanted to live in Dubai, but came to realize that it's loaded with foreigners. Fornication is rampant. The sheikh needs to be eliminated and peace and order needs to sustain. Humans today have degraded to beasts. It's not even funny anymore. The worst must be ruled by the pious and humble.

[therebbe]

Prolly since white (assuming you're white) people make up less than .0001% of their population.

Are you saying that the lack of "Whites" is the reason that he enjoyed Japan?

The sheikh

What is Sheikh?

[QuranStudy]

You will never know what you are missing if you stay in your little box.

I have visited many places myself (mostly Europe). I felt like I lived with savages. You can see ****s on the streets!

[Jayda]

the japanese were really nice when i went to tokyo

[QuranStudy]

What is Sheikh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayed_bin_Sultan_Al_Nahyan (for example)

Sheikh Zayed's critics point to the vast sums of the state's wealth that he accumulated for himself and his family, significantly dwarfing the amounts channeled to charitable contributions. Furthermore, that this was not his own wealth that he was distributing, but the nation's. One of his weddings landed in the Guinness Book of Records for being the most expensive in the world. Some of his charitable acts included adopting hundreds of orphans and building several hospitals both in the UAE and abroad (in Europe, Asia, and Africa). Zayed's supporters maintain that much of his charitable work went unadvertised, and was merely known through popular word-of-mouth, though state-friendly media enthusiastically publicized his philanthropy.

[Jayda]

what a good guy!

[therebbe]

Wait... So you say the big charity giver needs to be eliminated quranstudy?

[QuranStudy]

Wait... So you say the big charity giver needs to be eliminated quranstudy?

I am saying the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. That is un-Islamic. He is exploiting is people at the expense of an extravagant life. Did you ever see the guys's house??

[wilberhum]

I have visited many places myself (mostly Europe). I felt like I lived with savages. You can see ****s on the streets!

Savages? :hiding: Your box just keeps getting smaller. Any one who thinks different than you is a savage. :giggling:

[therebbe]

Any one who thinks different than you is a savage.

Like those Native Americans! LOL>

[wilberhum]

Like those Native Americans! LOL>

Native Americans are the worst savages. :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
That's why I married one. :hiding: :hiding: Well anyway she is part Native American. ;D ;D

[wilberhum]

I wanted to live in Dubai, but came to realize that it's loaded with foreigners. Fornication is rampant. The sheikh needs to be eliminated and peace and order needs to sustain. Humans today have degraded to beasts. It's not even funny anymore. The worst must be ruled by the pious and humble.

You wanted to live there. But did you ever go there? If you open your mind, you might really like it. Every place is loaded with foreigners and fornication is rampant every where. There is always someone that should be eliminated. I don't think there is any place that is ruled by the pious and humble. Utopia just does not exist. Get out in the wold, live a little. You judge every thing so harshly. Lighten up, practice tollorance, open your mind, life will only be as good as you let it.

[Skillganon]

Guiyz, can we keep the topic on focus. The Thread has a valid point, i.e.
"If we are all theists, why are we following secular laws??"

can I hear some thought provoking discussion?

[wilberhum]

Guiyz, can we keep the topic on focus. The Thread has a valid point, i.e.
"If we are all theists, why are we following secular laws??"

can I hear some thought provoking discussion?

I think the valid point is that it is not a valid point. When the world was devided by religion, it didn't work. Now that the world is less devided by religion, it dosen't work. Segration is a problem, not a solution.

[Skillganon]

I think the valid point is that it is not a valid point. When the world was devided by religion, it didn't work. Now that the world is less devided by religion, it dosen't work. Segration is a problem, not a solution.

Better.

Anyway I got a dictionary definition of the word secular to give help.

1. secular:

adjective
not having any connection with religion:
We live in an increasingly secular society, in which religion has less and less influence on our daily lives.
secular education
a secular state.

2. secularism
noun [U]
the belief that religion should not be involved with the ordinary social and political activities of a country

[Woodrow]

In my opinion The only way Religious law would work is if all the inhabitants of the country were of the same religion and they all practiced it in the same manner. They also would not want immigrants of another religion nor would they encourage visitors of another religion.

That would be fine if every nation was 100% self sufficient and no intermingling of cultures was desired.

If each country was a totaly seperate religion and each imposed religous law, it would pretty well end international trade.

Therefore the only way true religious law could work is if every person on earth was of the same religon and all people practiced it in the same manner.

Without true religous law the only practical solution is secular law.

So my answer to the topic question is we follow secular because not everybody follows the same religious beliefs. A flaw in the topic title is the assumption that all people are theist. The truth is polytheism, animism, agnostics and atheists probably out number theists at this point.

[Skillganon]

In my opinion The only way Religious law would work is if all the inhabitants of the country were of the same religion and they all practiced it in the same manner. They also would not want immigrants of another religion nor would they encourage visitors of another religion.

That would be fine if every nation was 100% self sufficient and no intermingling of cultures was desired.

If each country was a totaly seperate religion and each imposed religous law, it would pretty well end international trade.

Therefore the only way true religious law could work is if every person on earth was of the same religon and all people practiced it in the same manner.

Without true religous law the only practical solution is secular law.

So my answer to the topic question is we follow secular because not everybody follows the same religious beliefs. A flaw in the topic title is the assumption that all people are theist. The truth is polytheism, animism, agnostics and atheists probably out number theists at this point.

How did it work in the early Islam-History?

[QuranStudy]

I think the valid point is that it is not a valid point. When the world was devided by religion, it didn't work.

When was the world purely divided by religion?? There were atheists in non-atheist regions. Pope then were genocidal maniacs. Things have changed.

[Joe98]

....all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture.

But other religions don't want to do that, only Islam wants to do that.

[QuranStudy]

But other religions don't want to do that, only Islam wants to do that.

Other countries want to impose their own beliefs in Muslim countries. By force.

[KAding]

This makes no sense. Are secular laws bringing us under good light under God?? These laws make no
sense. If people followed their own religion, then there would ne no needs of seperation between "church
as state." The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion. A coherent community based on a religion would ensure peace and unity. There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington. Utopia is impoosible, but we can get one step closer to it via seperation of nations in terms of homogeneous Empires based on religion. Imn this way, all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture. Remember, God is greater.

Ehm. Wouldn't this imply massive religious cleansing in most othe world? I mean, we'd have to kick out tens of millions of Muslims out of Europe.

No thanks, it sounds like a humanitarian disaster. I'd rather we keep the state secular and that each individual or religious group look after its own salvation. It kinda sucks for Muslims I suppose, since Islam is so political, but for most other religions there really isn't a problem. Maybe only Muslims should segregate themselves from the rest of the world. Then you can build a big wall around the Muslim world to protect you from all these immoral influences!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion.

You seek a return to the Middle Ages? Good luck finding support for that idea...

There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington.

Your programme of separation is a sure way to lead to even more clashes of civilisations than the single one we are (arguably) beginning to see today. Intolerance, isolationism and mutual resentment would be the inevitable result. It's only by mixing and living together that we can begin to understand each other.

Peace

[Woodrow]

How did it work in the early Islam-History?

In the Early days the concept of nations was quite a bit different than it is today. For much of the world there still were city-states, in which each city was essentialy an independent country. Empires were more for taxation and not so much for ideology. Treaties were estableshed seperatly between cities.

It was more the rule than for each city to be under it's own religous rule.

Plus the worlds population was very much smaller than it is today, there was no rapid transportation or rapid communication either. Our current division of the world into countries is much different than what it had been in the past.

In the past it was possible for a country to remain under religious law as typicaly all people in a country were of the same religion. Trade between counties was basically conducted in trade centers which were sort of like free trade zones under no particular countries rule.

[QuranStudy]

Ehm. Wouldn't this imply massive religious cleansing in most othe world? I mean, we'd have to kick out tens of millions of Muslims out of Europe.

It's hypothetical. Never going to happen for that very reason (mass religious cleansing).

No thanks, it sounds like a humanitarian disaster. I'd rather we keep the state secular and that each individual or religious group look after its own salvation.

Humanitarian disaster?? The clash of civilizations is an humanitarian disaster! If you like a secular government, you should live in China!

It kinda sucks for Muslims I suppose, since Islam is so political, but for most other religions there really isn't a problem. Maybe only Muslims should segregate themselves from the rest of the world. Then you can build a big wall around the Muslim world to protect you from all these immoral influences!

Islam is as political as any other religion/atheism. So not only are Muslims screwed in certain countries, non-Muslims are screwed in Muslim countries.

[QuranStudy]

Your programme of separation is a sure way to lead to even more clashes of civilisations than the single one we are (arguably) beginning to see today.

Oh? And how is that??

Intolerance, isolationism and mutual resentment would be the inevitable result.

I disagree with the speculation. Quite the opposite would occur.

It's only by mixing and living together that we can begin to understand each other.

Yeah, "understanding each other" is another way of saying "divide and conquer."

[Keltoi]

"Understanding" each other has nothing to do with divide and conquer, it is about finding a way to live together without butchering each other. Seems a perfectly reasonable goal to me. Secular society allows this to happen without infringing on the right of people to worship as they see fit. Seems to me that the most important element of most if not all religions is to live in peace. If one views religion as their own personal club, where you must hide yourself from other views and force others to believe as you do to find peace...well, that seems to be a human psychosis, and has nothing to do with a loving God.

[ManchesterFolk]

The world should be like the Middle Ages

Then smash your computer. Smash your airconditioning. And if we were in the Middle Ages, America, Israel and others should be allowed to conquer whatever they want right? Since in the Middle Ages it was completly acceptable to conquerer anothers land because a king feels like it.

[QuranStudy]

"Understanding" each other has nothing to do with divide and conquer, it is about finding a way to live together without butchering each other. Seems a perfectly reasonable goal to me.

No, it's not reasonable. War is part of world affairs. Wars are always inevitable.

Secular society allows this to happen without infringing on the right of people to worship as they see fit.

Not necessarilly. Look at America in the 1920-1930s. The rights of women an African Americans were suppressed, despite a secular government. Many secular countries, like China, Russia, Cuba, Israel are strong violators of humans rights.

Seems to me that the most important element of most if not all religions is to live in peace. If one views religion as their own personal club, where you must hide yourself from other views and force others to believe as you do to find peace...well, that seems to be a human psychosis, and has nothing to do with a loving God.

I agree. Human errors lead to hostility.

Then smash your computer. Smash your airconditioning.

Dude, what id your IQ?? Can't you read my posts in context without making stupid remarks. The world should be like the Middle Ages in terms of DEMOGRAPHICS and society, not technology.

nd if we were in the Middle Ages, America, Israel and others should be allowed to conquer whatever they want right? Since in the Middle Ages it was completly acceptable to conquerer anothers land because a king feels like it.

Read my above comment to see why your reasoning is misleading. In the Middle Ages, there was more or less a Christian Europe, a Muslim ME and North Africa, a Hindu India, a Buddhist Japan. (Let's not also forget there was no such thing as Israel in the ME :) )

[therebbe]

more or less a Christian Europe, a Muslim ME and North Africa, a Hindu India, a Buddhist Japan.

And they were all conquering eachother for example Muslims invading Spain, Chrsitians invading Holy Land, ect.

Let's not also forget there was no such thing as Israel in the ME

Correct. Israel was around much earlier then the creation of "Christianity" or "Islam".

[Muezzin]

Heh, for a minute there I thought you meant 'the world should be like the Middle Ages' in the sense that Muslims are at the forefront of technological and mathematical advance. It would be nice to have another 'Islamic Renaissance'.

But I'd have to disagree with the whole splitting up into separate religious kingdoms thing, as it would lead to even more bloodshed, caused by the division along religious lines.

[Skillganon]

Warning Warning. THis is seriousely going off-topic.

Can we return to the OP of the thread as quick as possible.

[Woodrow]

This thread has gone way off topic.

:threadclo