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kadafi
06-10-2005, 07:26 PM
By Imam Ibn ul Qayyim al Jawziyyah:

It is obvious to anyone with reason that Satan has greatly manipulated these misled people (Christians). He called them and they responded to him; he befooled them and they obeyed him.

He manipulated them with regards to Allah, the Exalted and Most High.
He manipulated them with regards to Jesus (peace be upon him).
He manipulated them with regards to the cross and the worship of it.


He also manipulated them with regards to making pictures and statues in churches and then worshipping them, so you will not find one of their churches without the picture of Mary and Jesus, saints and other holy individuals and martyrs of theirs. Most of them prostrate to pictures and statues, and pray to them instead to Allah the Most High…

The typical example of what these polytheists are doing is like that of a servant of a king who entered upon a man, so the man jumped from his place, prostrated to the servant, worshipped him, and did to him what he was not supposed to do except to the king. Every rational person would consider him an ignorant and a fool because of what he did, since he did to the king’s servant what he was supposed to do only to the king, in terms of honoring, humbleness and humility.

It is well-known that what the servant did here is more likely to cause the king to hate him and look down upon him than to honor him and exalt his status.

This is the situation of one who prostrates to creation, or a picture of creation. This is because he resorted to prostration which is the greatest means of reaching the Lord’s pleasure. Such an action is not valid except for Allah, so there is no greater repulsiveness or injustice than doing it for a picture or statue of a servant and equalizing between Allah and His servant.

This is why Allah the Most High said, “Verily, shirk (polytheism, setting up partners with Allah) is a great injustice.” [Luqman: 33]

Allah the Most High has created his worshippers prone to recognize ugliness in expressing exaltation, glorification, sumbisiveness and humility towards king’s slaves and servants (as such actions are usually done for the king).

So what is the situation of the one who shows this type of reverence to king’s enemies? For Satan is the enemy of Allah, and the polytheist is in reality setting Satan, not Allah’s prophets and righteous servants¸ as a partner with Allah. For the prophets and righteous servants have nothing to do with those who set them as partners with Allah; they are against them and the strongest in hatred of all people towards them. The polytheists, therefore, are only setting up as partners with Allah His enemies, and equalizing between them and Allah in worship, exaltation, prostration and humility.

This is why the invalidity and ugliness of polytheism is recognized by sound innate nature and reason, and this type of ugliness is recognized more clearly than its other types.

The intent here was to mention Satan’s manipulation of these people in both the foundation and branches of their religion.

Burninglight
01-21-2012, 07:05 PM
It is obvious to anyone with reason that Satan has greatly manipulated these misled people (Christians). He called them and they responded to him; he befooled them and they obeyed him.
He manipulated them with regards to Allah, the Exalted and Most High.
He manipulated them with regards to Jesus (peace be upon him).
He manipulated them with regards to the cross and the worship of it.
He also manipulated them with regards to making pictures and statues in churches and then worshipping them, so you will not find one of their churches without the picture of Mary and Jesus, saints and other holy individuals and martyrs of theirs. Most of them prostrate to pictures and statues, and pray to them instead to Allah the Most High…Hold on there, you have jumped to unjustified conclusions. Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ. Don't confuse some Catholics with true Biblical Christianity. We do not make any staues or pictures to worship, and we believe God is one. You can't find a Church without these images? I can show you millions. Come to my church to start with. Show me any followers in the Bible that worshipped images as such. There aren't any. Did Matthew, Mark, Luke or John do it; did Paul do it?
We believe Satan deceives people into believing Jesus didn't tell the truth in the Bible and into believing that Jesus is not the truth. For instance, Jesus called God His father, and the Father called Jesus His beloved son in whom He is well pleased, and that we should hear Him. For us to say that God has no son, that is to say that God and Jesus lied. I can see Satan tricking people into believing God lied; moreover, Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and the life" He didn't say I show the way like other prophets before or after Him. I can see Satan deceiving people into believing that Jesus was just a messenger of God only to Jews instead of God's message to the world. It is written: "He came onto His own but they did not receive Him but as many as reiceived Him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God"

Jesus also said no one comes to the father (God) except through me. So I can see Satan deceiving people into believing that there is another way to get to God. This is tantamount to me tell you how to get to my house and my telling you this is the only way to get there, but you try and come a differnent way than I told you. You need to follow my directions. I know where I live and how exactly to get there, but you don't. If you want to arrive, you must follow my directions not yours. The angels were commanded to worship Jesus Heb1. The Bible states that Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. It states He is the Word that always existed but not always as flesh and blood.

So, I have no idea what you say is so obvious. It is not so obvious to me friend that Christians have been fooled. Besides, wasn't it Allah that tricked some into believing Jesus died on the cross? Well this trick, if it were a trick, started Christianity. No Christian believes this were a trick. Jesus' death and resurrection were witnessed and those witnesses risked their lives and many were killed sharing their testimony.

Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 02:33 AM
Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ. Don't confuse some Catholics with true Biblical Christianity.

catholics are majority christians.
Are you saying that majority christians are actually not christians?
So are you telling me also that majority christians will go to hell?


We do not make any staues or pictures to worship

These picture evidence refute your opinion:

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2011/11/mary_worsip_is_crazy-1.jpg

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2011/04/idolatrymary_worship-1.jpg

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2011/10/catholic_idolaters-1.jpg


I can give you millions other evidence like these if you are not satisfied.


and we believe God is one.

Let me get clear here, in the other thread you believe God has a son.
So you worship God's son also.
Aren't you forgetting your other god: holy spirit? why rarely mentioning him as if holy spirit has lowly rank in the godhood?

You claim you believe god is one but you are worshiping three gods.


You have fundamental mistake:
You believe in the corrupted bible, and you believe in saul of tarsus more than you believe in jesus (as).

Burninglight
01-22-2012, 04:12 AM
catholics are majority christians.
Are you saying that majority christians are actually not christians?
So are you telling me also that majority christians will go to hell?

Let me get clear here, in the other thread you believe God has a son.
So you worship God's son also.
Aren't you forgetting your other god: holy spirit? why rarely mentioning him as if holy spirit has lowly rank in the godhood?

You claim you believe god is one but you are worshiping three gods.


You have fundamental mistake:
You believe in the corrupted bible, and you believe in saul of tarsus more than you believe in jesus (as).Catholics are the majority of nominal Christians.



catholics are majority christians.
Are you saying that majority christians are actually not christians?
So are you telling me also that majority christians will go to hell?No


Let me get clear here, in the other thread you believe God has a son.
So you worship God's son also.
Aren't you forgetting your other god: holy spirit? why rarely mentioning him as if holy spirit has lowly rank in the godhood?

You claim you believe god is one but you are worshiping three gods.


You have fundamental mistake:
You believe in the corrupted bible, and you believe in saul of tarsus more than you believe in jesus (as). I didn't say God has a son. God said He did. I didn't say Jesus has a father in heaven; He did. Your beef is not with me; it is with the God of the Bible and Jesus! I simply believe what God said and what Jesus said in the Bible. Why do you say the Bible is corrupted if Muhammad never said that? Do you believe God is not stronger than man that He cannot preserve His word forever? If God couldn't preserve His word before Muhammad's time, what makes you so sure He can do it now? Your logic doesen't work for me sorry.

Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 05:04 AM
Catholics are the majority of nominal Christians.

Ara catholics christians or not?


No

So catholics will go to hell?


I didn't say God has a son. God said He did.

In the bible, God also said he has many sons: david, adam, etc.


I didn't say Jesus has a father in heaven; He did

Can you please tell me EXACTLY what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said?


Your beef is not with me; it is with the God of the Bible and Jesus!

I don't have any beef lol... let me check in the freezer first.
I am only showing you the inconsistencies and contradictories of your statements.


Why do you say the Bible is corrupted if Muhammad never said that?

Uh... christians even say bible is corrupted.
You also believe that bible is corrupted no?


Do you believe God is not stronger than man that He cannot preserve His word forever? If God couldn't preserve His word before Muhammad's time, what makes you so sure He can do it now? Your logic doesen't work for me sorry.

God (swt) preserve His message that He revealed to his prophets and messengers (pbut), from Ibrahim to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad (pbut). The basic message is the same: Worship Allah alone and assign no partner to Him and do good. Who says God doesn't preserve His word?

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)
(QS. 15:9)

As you can see, not one single letter is changed from the Qur'an even after this 1,400 years.

One thing, are you sure you want to talk about logic?
Let's do it then.

Burninglight
01-22-2012, 06:11 AM
Ara catholics christians or not?Most of them are nominal Christians. I other words many of them don't know God. There are different types of Catholics all of them believe in Jesus, but not all of them have Christ in their hearts. Only those that do aree true Catholics. Only those that trust in Him for their salvation.

So catholics will go to hell? You need to ask God that question; I am not God. Why are you asking me?

In the bible, God also said he has many sons: david, adam, etc.So! There is no other name given whereby we might be saved, but the name of Jesus.

Can you please tell me EXACTLY what Jesus (pbuh) ACTUALLY said?Yes, He said, "No man can come to the father (God) except through me" He also said "You will die in your sins unless you believe that I am He" He said, "Before Abraham was I am" He said, " I am the Way, Truht and the Life; He didn't say I show the way like the other prophets before Him. He said "I and the fathe are one" Philip said to Him show us the father. Jesus said, "How long have you been with me and you still don't know me?" Jesus doesn't say I am God but He sure does allude to it as all the prophets did before Muhammad in the NT.

I don't have any beef lol... let me check in the freezer first.
I am only showing you the inconsistencies and contradictories of your statements.lol, okay share the beef, but what inconsistencies and contradictions?

Uh... christians even say bible is corrupted.
You also believe that bible is corrupted no?No! The Bible has some interpolations and translational errors, but all the Bibles are consistent that Jesus died for our sin and rose. If we have the son we have life; If we don't we don't have life but God's wrath hangs over our heads

God (swt) preserve His message that He revealed to his prophets and messengers (pbut), from Ibrahim to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad (pbut). The basic message is the same: Worship Allah alone and assign no partner to Him and do good. Who says God doesn't preserve His word?
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)
(QS. 15:9)
As you can see, not one single letter is changed from the Qur'an even after this 1,400 years.
One thing, are you sure you want to talk about logic? Let's do it then.Those that say the Bible is corrupted are saying God doesn't preserve His word. Is man's ability to corrupt greater than God's power to preserve. Show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted. You didn't answer my question. If the Scriptures were corrupted before Muhammad's time as you say and God didn't preserve it, what makes you think they couldn't be after his time? Not one letter was changed in the Quran? Are you sure? What about Uthman burning all the original Qurans shortly after Muhammad's death? He recompiled the Quran and he is not a prophet. Even Muslims tell me that verses were abbrogated from it. Why did the Qurans need to be burned. Christians have never burned any of the copies of the OT or NT Scriptures. I still don't see your logic and please answer my questions.

MustafaMc
01-22-2012, 03:19 PM
Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ.Christians rely upon the supposed death of Jesus (as God Incarnate) on the cross to redeem them from their sins. The cross is a symbol of this 'event'. When I was a Christian, my mental concept of God was of Jesus hanging on the cross (astaghfir'Allah).
We do not make any staues or pictures to worship, and we believe God is one. Catholics believe they are the true Christians and that Protestants are heretical deviants. Catholics often have statues of Mary in their home as well as the Crucifix with the body of Jesus on the cross. Protestants have a simple cross without a human figure, but still the undisputed focus of Christianity is on the cross.
We believe Satan deceives people into believing Jesus didn't tell the truth in the Bible and into believing that Jesus is not the truth. For instance, Jesus called God His father, and the Father called Jesus His beloved son in whom He is well pleased, and that we should hear Him. For us to say that God has no son, that is to say that God and Jesus lied. You make an erroneous leap of faith here in saying "to say that God has no son, that is to say that God and Jesus lied" is saying that the words attributed to Jesus in the NT gospels are the literal, unadulterated actual words he spoke. Even the Lord's Prayer is different between Matthew and Luke. Which version did Jesus actually tell his disciples to pray? Well, actually neither because Jesus did not speak English. He apparently spoke Aramaic, the earliest manuscripts are in Greek, the Greek was translated into Latin and the Latin was translated into English. It does not take much imagination to understand that changes in meaning have crept in from the words Jesus spoke to the actual NT that people read today. For that matter, indisputably very few of Jesus actual words are even mentioned in the gospels.
So I can see Satan deceiving people into believing that there is another way to get to God. This is tantamount to me tell you how to get to my house and my telling you this is the only way to get there, but you try and come a differnent way than I told you. You need to follow my directions.What about what Jesus said to the rich young ruler regarding eternal life in Matthew 19:17? “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” or Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. I believe that the will of God is to obey what He has instructed us to do as revealed through the prophets, the final of which was Muhammad (saaws).
It is not so obvious to me friend that Christians have been fooled. Besides, wasn't it Allah that tricked some into believing Jesus died on the cross? Well this trick, if it were a trick, started Christianity. Quran 4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. My understanding is that Jesus was not crucified nor died, but the circumstances were such that some people believed he was. I do not know the details of these circumstances, but I believe what the Quran says.

Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 03:45 PM
Most of them are nominal Christians. I other words many of them don't know God. There are different types of Catholics all of them believe in Jesus, but not all of them have Christ in their hearts. Only those that do aree true Catholics. Only those that trust in Him for their salvation.

Ok. So catholics are christians.
And I have shown you that majority christians worship statues and images.


You need to ask God that question; I am not God. Why are you asking me?

Because christians believe that only christians will go to paradise and the rest will go to hell.
So if catholics are not christians then they will go to hell, per your definition.


So! There is no other name given whereby we might be saved, but the name of Jesus.

so you agree that God has many sons.


Yes, He said, "No man can come to the father (God) except through me" He also said "You will die in your sins unless you believe that I am He" He said, "Before Abraham was I am" He said, " I am the Way, Truht and the Life; He didn't say I show the way like the other prophets before Him. He said "I and the fathe are one" Philip said to Him show us the father. Jesus said, "How long have you been with me and you still don't know me?" Jesus doesn't say I am God but He sure does allude to it as all the prophets did before Muhammad in the NT.

I asked you, I want Jesus' ACTUAL words, not your own words.
Where is it?


lol, okay share the beef, but what inconsistencies and contradictions?

You said christians only worship one God, but I have shown you that christians also worship Jesus, statues, images, etc.


No! The Bible has some interpolations and translational errors, but all the Bibles are consistent that Jesus died for our sin and rose. If we have the son we have life; If we don't we don't have life but God's wrath hangs over our heads

Bible has translations errors?
Please show me those errors.
When You say bible has translation errors, then you must show us the translated bible compared to the original bible. That way we can compare of there's translation errors.

Later I will show you many passages in the bible which are 100% fabricated by early priests/scribes.


Those that say the Bible is corrupted are saying God doesn't preserve His word.

You assume that bible is God's words.
Where is your proof?


If the Scriptures were corrupted before Muhammad's time as you say and God didn't preserve it, what makes you think they couldn't be after his time?

I have shown you the promise of God (swt) in the Qur'an that He preserve the Qur'an, and I have shown you that Qur'an is unchanged. That is my proof.
Now, I can show you thousands of different bibles, each different from the others. So, which one is preserved?



Not one letter was changed in the Quran? Are you sure?

Yes. I am 100% sure.

The proof:
every single muslim from a computer engineer in silicon valley california to an illitetrate farmer in remote area in Indonesia memorise the same Qur'an. There are millions of muslims in the world who FULLY memorised the Qur'an (they are called hafiz) down to the T and dots, including my 16 yo cousin. Even if every single copy of qur'an text is destroyed, the Qur'an will never get destroyed nor changed unless you kill every single of those hafiz as well.
You seem to have no idea whatsoever about preservation of the Qur'an.
read again, and this time stop reading false info from anti Islam sites.


What about Uthman burning all the original Qurans shortly after Muhammad's death? He recompiled the Quran and he is not a prophet.

By the time of IUthman (ra), Qur'an had been fully memorized by tens of thousands of people, not only in makkah/madinah, but from from north Africa all the way to persia.
And Uthman (ra) did not recompile the Qur'an.
Read again preservation of Qur'an but this time stop reading false info from anti islam sites.


Christians have never burned any of the copies of the OT or NT Scriptures

Are you a new christian?
I am asking because any adult christian would know that constantine and nicea council hunted down and burned down and destroyed hundreds of gospels, and they killed and decimated christians who didn't adhere to latin idea of god coming down to earth.

If you believe OT and NT scriptures were never burned or destroyed, then show us here original copies of OT and NT.

Ramadhan
01-22-2012, 03:46 PM
I still don't see your logic and please answer my questions.

I have laid down my logic perfectly and answered every single one of your questions, now do not evade my questions, answer them and have some logic.

Burninglight
01-22-2012, 06:30 PM
Catholics believe they are the true Christians and that Protestants are heretical deviants. Catholics often have statues of Mary in their home as well as the Crucifix with the body of Jesus on the cross. Protestants have a simple cross without a human figure, but still the undisputed focus of Christianity is on the cross.Everyone one believes their own religion. I am not interested in what Catholics or Protestants think. I am a follower of Jesus Christ so call me neither Catholic nor protestant. You are speaking with me not Catholics or Protestants.


You make an erroneous leap of faith here in saying "to say that God has no son, that is to say that God and Jesus lied" is saying that the words attributed to Jesus in the NT gospels are the literal, unadulterated actual words he spoke. Even the Lord's Prayer is different between Matthew and Luke. Which version did Jesus actually tell his disciples to pray?It is written in the Bible, fath is the substance of the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Going by faith is better than a known path. "Erroneous leap of faith" I don't believe that. The difference in the prayers are negligible as are the translation errors and the few interpolations that don't change the heart of the gospel message. One should never throw out the baby with the wash.

What about what Jesus said to the rich young ruler regarding eternal life in Matthew 19:17? “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” or Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. I believe that the will of God is to obey what He has instructed us to do as revealed through the prophets, the final of which was Muhammad (saaws).Jesus was speaking rhetorically. He wasn't saying He wasn't good. He wanted the rich young ruler to understand that since God is the only one that is good, did he realize he was in essences calling Jesus God, by calling Him good. Jesus is Good. If the rich young ruler had said, but "You are good, because you are the son of the living God." Jesus would have commended him. God showed me the meaning of the text in question by His Spirit
Peace


Quran 4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. My understanding is that Jesus was not crucified nor died, but the circumstances were such that some people believed he was. I do not know the details of these circumstances, but I believe what the Quran says.

Burninglight
01-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Just as you believe the Quran I believe the Bible

YusufNoor
01-22-2012, 07:17 PM
Hold on there, you have jumped to unjustified conclusions. Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ. Don't confuse some Catholics with true Biblical Christianity.

all "Western forms of Christianity are descended from the "catholic" church.

We do not make any staues or pictures to worship, and we believe God is one.

actually, you believe in a 3 part god.

You can't find a Church without these images? I can show you millions. Come to my church to start with. Show me any followers in the Bible that worshipped images as such.

and what "church" might that be?

There aren't any. Did Matthew, Mark, Luke or John do it; did Paul do it?

Paul specifically tells us that he preached a "different" "gospel" than either the apostles or Jesus taught. eg"


11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

i think we can agree that Paul is i convert to Christianity, yet he clearly states: "that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it"

Paul is telling us in plain English [translation] that he DOES NOT preach what the apostles taught, but rather that he has a "new" "gospel" which he concocted in his 3 years in Arabia.



We believe Satan deceives people into believing Jesus didn't tell the truth in the Bible

you are confusing the authentic teachings of Jesus with the reports in the "anonymous" gospels.

and into believing that Jesus is not the truth.

as Muslims, we believe ONLY the truth about Jesus.

For instance, Jesus called God His father, and the Father called Jesus His beloved son in whom He is well pleased, and that we should hear Him.

there are no authentic contemporaneous written records of Jesus preaching what you believe in that statement.

For us to say that God has no son, that is to say that God and Jesus lied.

no, it is simply to state that the unknown writers of you gospels wrote incorrect things. Muslims don't believe Jesus ever lied.

I can see Satan tricking people into believing God lied;

he did, your religion is based upon those lies.

moreover, Jesus said, "I am the way, truth and the life" He didn't say I show the way like other prophets before or after Him.

if you don't believe that the prior prophets showed the right way or the truth then the foundations of your "way" are built upon lies...interesting!

I can see Satan deceiving people into believing that Jesus was just a messenger of God only to Jews instead of God's message to the world. It is written: "He came onto His own but they did not receive Him but as many as reiceived Him to them gave he the power to become the sons of God"

Jesus also said no one comes to the father (God) except through me. So I can see Satan deceiving people into believing that there is another way to get to God.

each Prophet showed the correct way and preached that God is One.

This is tantamount to me tell you how to get to my house and my telling you this is the only way to get there, but you try and come a differnent way than I told you. You need to follow my directions. I know where I live and how exactly to get there, but you don't. If you want to arrive, you must follow my directions not yours.

actually, we could just google it and take any of the options provided.

The angels were commanded to worship Jesus Heb1.

and who wrote Hebrews"

The Bible states that Jesus is the word that God spoke all things into existence. It states He is the Word that always existed but not always as flesh and blood.

the book that says that was written 60 plus years AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven by an unknown source. not very authentic or convincing.

So, I have no idea what you say is so obvious. It is not so obvious to me friend that Christians have been fooled. Besides, wasn't it Allah that tricked some into believing Jesus died on the cross? Well this trick, if it were a trick, started Christianity. No Christian believes this were a trick. Jesus' death and resurrection were witnessed and those witnesses risked their lives and many were killed sharing their testimony.

do you have any authentic contemporaneous evidence of this?



I didn't say God has a son. God said He did.

in your opinion, this is what He said. we disagree.

I didn't say Jesus has a father in heaven; He did. Your beef is not with me; it is with the God of the Bible and Jesus!

it is simply a beef with your bible.

I simply believe what God said and what Jesus said in the Bible.

that is why you have been deceived.

Why do you say the Bible is corrupted if Muhammad never said that?

do please tell us just how much you know about what Muhammad, pbuh, said or didn't say. we eagerly await for you to tell us of your vast knowledge.

Do you believe God is not stronger than man that He cannot preserve His word forever?


He did, in the Qur'an.

If God couldn't preserve His word before Muhammad's time, what makes you so sure He can do it now?

God can do whatever He wants to.

Your logic doesen't work for me sorry.

you have given no reason to apply any degree of standard to the value of your logic.


:sl:

i dedicate this post to Purest...

:wa:

MustafaMc
01-22-2012, 07:32 PM
Everyone one believes their own religion. I am not interested in what Catholics or Protestants think. I am a follower of Jesus Christ so call me neither Catholic nor protestant. You are speaking with me not Catholics or Protestants.My understanding of Christianity is derived from my growing up as a Baptist and from my interactions with Catholic co-workers. You are welcome to enlighten me as to what you mean by 'follower of Jesus Christ'.

It is written in the Bible, fath is the substance of the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Going by faith is better than a known path. I too have faith, but my understanding of God is not independent of the Quran.
"Erroneous leap of faith" I don't believe that. The difference in the prayers are negligible as are the translation errors and the few interpolations that don't change the heart of the gospel message. One should never throw out the baby with the wash. Whether the differences are small or large is irrelevant. The point is that the 2 passages are different and we don't know if one 'version' had words added or the other had words omitted. If this simple example illustrates an inaccurate recording of the words Jesus used, how do we know which words were inserted in the NT gospels by the authors and which were intentionally omitted or even changed?
Jesus was speaking rhetorically. He wasn't saying He wasn't good. You missed my point which is that to attain eternal life/salvation, Jesus instructed him to keep the commandments.
God showed me the meaning of the text in question by His Spirit
PeaceUnderstanding of difficult things comes through the guidance of God. I experienced this myself after reading the Quran and having God open my eyes to the fact that Jesus was not His 'son' and that Jesus was not God.

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 12:00 AM
Are you a new christian?
I am asking because any adult christian would know that constantine and nicea council hunted down and burned down and destroyed hundreds of gospels, and they killed and decimated christians who didn't adhere to latin idea of god coming down to earth.

If you believe OT and NT scriptures were never burned or destroyed, then show us here original copies of OT and NT.Good point. I guess I am just trusting that God can preserve His word thoughout all time whether it is a copy or the original. After all, reading an original copy is going to do you just as much good as a copy of that original if it is followed and obeyed. I don't care about Constantine and the council of Nicea they are not stronger than God. Man's power to corrupt is not stronger than God's power to preserve and don't think that people haven't memorized the Bible as well.

Ramadhan
01-23-2012, 02:00 AM
Good point. I guess I am just trusting that God can preserve His word thoughout all time whether it is a copy or the original.

Again, you assume that bible is the word of God.
Have you actually read your bible in whole?


After all, reading an original copy is going to do you just as much good as a copy of that original if it is followed and obeyed.

Sure, if you have a copy of the original.
Can you please who us here a copy of the original bible?


I don't care about Constantine and the council of Nicea they are not stronger than God.

They are not stronger than God, but constantine and council of nicea is the foundation of christianity.


Man's power to corrupt is not stronger than God's power to preserve

Very true, and that's why Qur'an is 100% preserved, unchanged, because it is the word of God, while those other books which claim from God but actually not is not preserved.


don't think that people haven't memorized the Bible as well.

Please give me one name of someone that has memorized ORIGINAL bible?


By the way, you did NOT answer most of my questions in the previous post. Just as you challenged me to answer your questions, which I did wholly, I want you to answer ALL of my questions.
and LOGIC please.

MustafaMc
01-23-2012, 04:17 AM
Good point. I guess I am just trusting that God can preserve His word thoughout all time whether it is a copy or the original. What evidence or logic supports your premise that the Bible is the 'Word of God'? Was Mark 16:9-20 part of God's Word or was it added to the NT by man?

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 04:51 AM
By the way, you did NOT answer most of my questions in the previous post. Just as you challenged me to answer your questions, which I did wholly, I want you to answer ALL of my questions.
and LOGIC please.I will try

Later I will show you many passages in the bible which are 100% fabricated by early priests/scribes.Please do.
Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say. I am looking to see why I should believe Islam over Christianity. I haven’t been given proof except you saying that the Quran hasn’t had one word change. The Book of Mormon hasn’t change either does that mean it is God’s word?
It doesn’t matter what I say to you about the Bible, and what good will it do to show you translational errors or some interpolations, You don’t deny they exist do you? But if you are trying to tell me that the whole Bible is corrupted in the Torah, Pslams and the Gospel, you are going against Islam. I will try and reason with you why I trust the Bible by using the Quran which, btw, never had a divine mandate to be written. Quran means recitation not write! Here is what the Quran says about these books of the Bible you say you have 100% corrupted passages for. That means not negligible interpolations and translational errors, but something significant that should cause me to dump the Bible for the Quran.
Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).
Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).
The Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. I have no problem with this, but you claim that the Bible is corrupted. If that is so, then you don’t believe the Qu'ran since it states like the Bible does that the Word of God cannot be change or corrupted:
"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).
During Muhammad’s time, he received the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah / Gabriel. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted. This is my proof to you because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The Bible says “Thy word oh God is established in the heavens forever” The question I have for you and as you promised to provide this information is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah which can never be altered? Are you telling me you believe man’s power to corrupt the word of Allah to the prophets that came before Muhammad is greater than Allah’s power to preserve even after Allah tells you his word cannot be corrupted. And show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted.
finally don't forget the Jews made copies from the originals and so did the Greek Christians and there are hundreds of copies in circulation that can be comapared with each other. They line up with what Muhammad had at his time and they are the same today some in English that have better translations than others, but we get the meaning loud and clear

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 05:10 AM
By the time of IUthman (ra), Qur'an had been fully memorized by tens of thousands of people, not only in makkah/madinah, but from from north Africa all the way to persia.
And Uthman (ra) did not recompile the Qur'an.anti Muslim? are you saying it is not true that Uthman burned the Qurans? Please do correct me if I am wrong I don't want to say anything that is not true. So why does one need to burn something that is perfect?

MustafaMc
01-23-2012, 01:07 PM
anti Muslim? are you saying it is not true that Uthman burned the Qurans? Please do correct me if I am wrong I don't want to say anything that is not true. So why does one need to burn something that is perfect?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Affan#Qur.27an During the time of Uthman, by which time Islam had spread far and wide, differences in reading the Quran in different dialects of Arabic language became obvious. A group of companions, headed by Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman, who was then stationed in Iraq, came to Uthman and urged him to "save the Muslim ummah before they differ about the Quran" . Uthman obtained the complete manuscript of the Qur'an from Hafsah, one of the wives of the Islamic prophet Muhammad who had been entrusted to keep the manuscript ever since the Qur'an was comprehensively compiled by the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. Uthman then again summoned the leading compiling authority, Zayd ibn Thabit, and some other companions to make copies of the manuscript. Zayd was put in charge of the task. The style of Arabic dialect used was that of the Quraysh tribe to which the Prophet Muhammad belonged. Hence this style was emphasized over all others.

My understanding is that as Islam spread into new areas differences in the Quran crept in due to differences in the Arabic dialect. In addition to the many companions of Prophet Muhammad who had memorized the entire Quran, there was the manuscript compiled by Abu Bakr shortly after Muhammad's (saaws) death. To preserve the authenticity of the Quran back to the original source, the Quran texts with differences from the original were destroyed.

Contrast this to the history of the Bible where the earliest texts in Hebrew and Aramaic were destroyed and what was preserved was the Greek texts with whatever changes and additions had crept in. Have you ever read any books by Bart Ehrman on this subject?

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 04:06 PM
My understanding is that as Islam spread into new areas differences in the Quran crept in due to differences in the Arabic dialect. In addition to the many companions of Prophet Muhammad who had memorized the entire Quran, there was the manuscript compiled by Abu Bakr shortly after Muhammad's (saaws) death. To preserve the authenticity of the Quran back to the original source, the Quran texts with differences from the original were destroyed.But Uthman wasn't a prophet. Muhammad didn't get to see or approve of what Uthman did, and he was given no divine mandate that I can tell to recompile in writing the Quran which means recitation. I not only don't see him being authorized by Muhammad or Allah; I don't understand how one gets write of of say!

Contrast this to the history of the Bible where the earliest texts in Hebrew and Aramaic were destroyed and what was preserved was the Greek texts with whatever changes and additions had crept in. Have you ever read any books by Bart Ehrman on this subject?Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say. I am looking to see why I should believe Islam over Christianity. I haven’t been given proof except you saying that the Quran hasn’t had one word change. The Book of Mormon hasn’t change either does that mean it is God’s word?
I will try and reason with you why I trust the Bible by using the Quran Here is what the Quran says about the Bible you say to compare it with:
Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).
Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

The Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. I have no problem with this, but you claim that the Bible is corrupted. If that is so, then you don’t believe the Qu'ran since it states like the Bible does that the Word of God cannot be change or corrupted:
"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).

"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

During Muhammad’s time, he received the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah / Gabriel. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted. This is my proof to you because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted. The Bible says “Thy word oh God is established in the heavens forever” The question I have for you and as you promised to provide this information is "When and where was the Bible corrupted, since the Qu'ran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah which can never be altered? Are you telling me you believe man’s power to corrupt the word of Allah to the prophets that came before Muhammad is greater than Allah’s power to preserve even after Allah tells you his word cannot be corrupted. And show me where Muhammad said the Bible is corrupted.

Burninglight
01-23-2012, 04:09 PM
I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is what Allah promised to preserve along with the Torah and the Pslams.

Snowflake
01-23-2012, 06:48 PM
Burninglight: Christians are not supossed to worship the cross; they are suppose to carry their cross and follow Christ.

Firstly, hi and welcome to the forums. Hope your stay here is beneficial God willing and Allah guides you to the Truth. Ameen.

Now to the above statement. I've always found it strange that the cross is seen as a symbol of Jesus's sacrifice for two reasons:

1st reason: Textual evidence (below) from the Bible suggests that Jesus did not die willingly.


Jesus Arrested (http://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/passage.aspx?q=luke+22:47-53)


22:47-53pp -- Mt 26:47-56; Mk 14:43-50; Jn 18:3-11 (http://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/passage.aspx?q=luke+22:47-53)

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?" <<< It was this betrayal that lead to Jesus's crucifixion. Not his willingness. 49When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. 51 But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him. 52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? <<<Jesus tried to defend himself and had no intention of sacrificing himself to save mankind. Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." <<< Here, I may as well bring your attention to Jesus's admission that he came to fulfil the previous scriptures. He never came to start a new religion. But to uphold the Message of the previous prophet's that there is no God but Allah.




24 So Pilate decided to grant their demand. 25 He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will. <<< Again, despite being dragged from court to court and throughout the trials, Jesus NEVER gave himself up willingly, but was imprisoned on the angry demands of the people. Would a humble Prophet of God (who the Bible claims knew he was going to die) allow such drama to take place if he knew he was going to sacrifice himself anyway? Or would he say, "Stop! It is not you who shall condemn me to death. For it is I who shall give up my life so that thou shalt be saved"?



Jesus's final words: Matthew 27:46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?version=31&passage=Matthew+27:46) About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"<<< Word that suggest a huge betrayal of the willingness to die. (Note: I am ware the NT has changed jesus's last words to "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Another example of the corruption in the Bible.)




2nd reason: The cross was tool used to kill all sorts of criminals and not exclusively reserved for Jesus. Even if it had been, it should be a thing hated and shunned all the more because of the reminder that Jesus suffered on it. Forgive my example and may that not happen, but if one of your loved one's died defending you as a result of getting shot, would a gun become a symbol of their sacrifice for you? I'm sure you wouldn't nail one to the wall, or wear a miniature replica around your neck, or even bear to look at one again. I've never understood how Christians can look at the cross and selfishly take pride in Jesus's suffering and death, while not contemplating the horror of what he was subjected to.



I hope you can see my point.

Peace.

Azraq
01-23-2012, 08:09 PM
I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is what Allah promised to preserve along with the Torah and the Pslams.

The duty of the nations was to preserve their scriptures and to teach them to their people
(Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel),
Allah had placed upon them that responsibility. They never had to spread the message to all humanity.

The Qur'an and the way of Muhammad(pbuh) have been preserved by Allah for this nation, but the reason he has preserved
the scripture for us is because our duty is to convey the message to the whole of mankind.

Be true to yourself.

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 02:09 AM
Firstly, hi and welcome to the forums. Hope your stay here is beneficial God willing and Allah guides you to the Truth. Ameen.

Now to the above statement. I've always found it strange that the cross is seen as a symbol of Jesus's sacrifice for two reasons:

1st reason: Textual evidence (below) from the Bible suggests that Jesus did not die willingly.Thank you for you welcome sister of Islam. I don't see the textual evidence that Jesus didn't die willing.

"Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"Jesus said, "Offenses are sure to come, but wow unto them from whom they come"

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? <<<Jesus tried to defend himself and had no intention of sacrificing himself to save mankind. Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." <<< Here, I may as well bring your attention to Jesus's admission that he came to fulfil the previous scriptures. He never came to start a new religion. But to uphold the Message of the previous prophet's that there is no God but Allah.It wasn't Jesus' will to die; it was God's will and Jesus' will to do the will of God. that is why he said, "Father let this cup pass form me, but not my will yours be done"

Jesus's final words: Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"<<< Word that suggest a huge betrayal of the willingness to die. (Note: I am ware the NT has changed jesus's last words to "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Another example of the corruption in the Bible.)that is because Jesus became a curse so we could be bless; He died so we could live; he became poor so we could be rich. Don't Jesus told Peter he was to be given into the hands of sinners to die, but Peter said "Never, never willthat happen to you" Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me Satanfor thou savourest not the things that be of God..."

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 02:27 AM
The duty of the nations was to preserve their scriptures and to teach them to their people
(Matthew 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel),
Allah had placed upon them that responsibility. They never had to spread the message to all humanity.

The Qur'an and the way of Muhammad(pbuh) have been preserved by Allah for this nation, but the reason he has preserved
the scripture for us is because our duty is to convey the message to the whole of mankind.

Be true to yourself.You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. Jesus came unto His own, but they did not receive Him, but has many as have received Him to them gave He the power to become the sons of God even to those that believe on His name. It should have been the lost sheep of the house of Israel that received the message who is Jesus, but they refused to believe, but we have received the Word and have received the blessing and salvation they were not worthy of. I am being as truthful to myself and you as I know.

MustafaMc
01-24-2012, 02:38 AM
It wasn't Jesus' will to die; it was God's will and Jesus' will to do the will of God. that is why he said, "Father let this cup pass form me, but not my will yours be done"I am glad that you see Jesus and God are two separate beings with one submitting his will to that of the other - much like I submit my will to Allah when I choose to get up to pray before sunrise rather than stay in bed sleep some more.

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 04:07 AM
I am glad that you see Jesus and God are two separate beings with one submitting his will to that of the other - much like I submit my will to Allah when I choose to get up to pray before sunrise rather than stay in bed sleep some more.Yes I do, see them as two persons. I see Jesus as God's word coming to life on earth to be with us. But what can be greater than God's word. It is written in the Bible that God exalts His word above all His name yet Jesus was the lesser of God who He called His Father and ours because He said the "Father is Greater than I." How can that be?

Well, Jesus was a man like you and me, but He he was also God's living word in the flesh and that is what you don't believe and I do. Jesus always existed as the word but not as flesh and blood. Why God chose to make His word and Holimness distinct persons but one God with Himself, I don't understand, no Christian does, BUT who are we to say what God can or can't do. We don't understand how He can always be or how he always was or how He can stand outside of time seeing the past, present and future at the same time, but we accept that which is not logical; yet, some will say, it is not possible for God to make His word become flesh and dwell amongst us. That is strange, very strange!
^o)

MustafaMc
01-24-2012, 04:11 AM
They say the Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for the Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Quran 19:88-92
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/21/4204473/cair-to-santorum-christians-jews.html#storylink=scinlineshare#storylink=cpy

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 04:38 AM
They say the Most Gracious has begotten a son! Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for the Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Quran 19:88-92
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/01/21/420...#storylink=cpy Well, the word "Begotten" may not be an accurate translation, because I would agree that God didn't seer Jesus, But Jesus does call God His father and the Father God calls Jesus His son "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him" God said, "beloved son" - He didn't say "this is my begotten son" So, if someone would say God seered Jesus as a begotten son, I would agree they are putting forth a thing most monstrous! Sadly, IMO, Muslims are missing or neglecting what the Bible calls so great a salvation because they are hung up on the translation of John 3:16. The Bible states or asks, "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 04:42 AM
Please show me how the Bible is as corrupted as you say

All bible scholars agreed that John 7:53-8:11 (also known as pericope adulterae) was a later addition to NT.
That passage was not in any oldest bible manuscripts, not in codex sinaiticus, not in codex alexandrinus, not in codex vaticanus.

THAT is corruption.

And that is only one example. I can give you hundreds others.

Now, please answer my other questions.

Do not evade please.

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 04:44 AM
I believe the gospel of Jesus is the injeel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

Have you actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Those are accounts by supposedly writers of matthew, john, luke and mark. And in many passages, even the third person account became the second person account.

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 04:46 AM
Again, you assume that bible is the word of God.
Have you actually read your bible in whole?



Sure, if you have a copy of the original.
Can you please who us here a copy of the original bible?



They are not stronger than God, but constantine and council of nicea is the foundation of christianity.



Very true, and that's why Qur'an is 100% preserved, unchanged, because it is the word of God, while those other books which claim from God but actually not is not preserved.



Please give me one name of someone that has memorized ORIGINAL bible?


By the way, you did NOT answer most of my questions in the previous post. Just as you challenged me to answer your questions, which I did wholly, I want you to answer ALL of my questions.
and LOGIC please.


Burninglight, please answer all my questions in post #15

Do not run away now
:)

Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 05:06 AM
Ok. So catholics are christians.
And I have shown you that majority christians worship statues and images.



Because christians believe that only christians will go to paradise and the rest will go to hell.
So if catholics are not christians then they will go to hell, per your definition.



so you agree that God has many sons.



I asked you, I want Jesus' ACTUAL words, not your own words.
Where is it?



You said christians only worship one God, but I have shown you that christians also worship Jesus, statues, images, etc.



Bible has translations errors?
Please show me those errors.
When You say bible has translation errors, then you must show us the translated bible compared to the original bible. That way we can compare of there's translation errors.

Later I will show you many passages in the bible which are 100% fabricated by early priests/scribes.



You assume that bible is God's words.
Where is your proof?



I have shown you the promise of God (swt) in the Qur'an that He preserve the Qur'an, and I have shown you that Qur'an is unchanged. That is my proof.
Now, I can show you thousands of different bibles, each different from the others. So, which one is preserved?




Yes. I am 100% sure.

The proof:
every single muslim from a computer engineer in silicon valley california to an illitetrate farmer in remote area in Indonesia memorise the same Qur'an. There are millions of muslims in the world who FULLY memorised the Qur'an (they are called hafiz) down to the T and dots, including my 16 yo cousin. Even if every single copy of qur'an text is destroyed, the Qur'an will never get destroyed nor changed unless you kill every single of those hafiz as well.
You seem to have no idea whatsoever about preservation of the Qur'an.
read again, and this time stop reading false info from anti Islam sites.



By the time of IUthman (ra), Qur'an had been fully memorized by tens of thousands of people, not only in makkah/madinah, but from from north Africa all the way to persia.
And Uthman (ra) did not recompile the Qur'an.
Read again preservation of Qur'an but this time stop reading false info from anti islam sites.



Are you a new christian?
I am asking because any adult christian would know that constantine and nicea council hunted down and burned down and destroyed hundreds of gospels, and they killed and decimated christians who didn't adhere to latin idea of god coming down to earth.

If you believe OT and NT scriptures were never burned or destroyed, then show us here original copies of OT and NT.


Please answer all my questions in this post #8

MustafaMc
01-24-2012, 05:17 AM
Well, the word "Begotten" may not be an accurate translation, because I would agree that God didn't seer Jesus, But Jesus does call God His father and the Father God calls Jesus His son "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him" God said, "beloved son" - He didn't say "this is my begotten son" So, if someone would say God seered Jesus as a begotten son, I would agree they are putting forth a thing most monstrous! I believe that the use of the terms 'Son' and 'Father' in the gospels are figurative not literal as illustrated by John 20:16-17 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. Can you extract yourself from your Christian faith and read those last few words from an unbiased perspective? Jesus put himself on equal footing as his disciples with them having the same relation to God as 'my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."
Sadly, IMO, Muslims are missing or neglecting what the Bible calls so great a salvation because they are hung up on the translation of John 3:16. The Bible states or asks, "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"Sadly, IMO, Christians are placing their trust for salvation in the very thing that puts them in danger of the Hellfire. I know from personal experience that unless God opens your eyes, you will not be able to see the truth that there is only One God and that Muhammad was His messenger and servant.

Eric H
01-24-2012, 12:33 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all, on both sides of the great divide.

We strive to change other people’s beliefs, but we should strive to change ourselves first.

If any of us achieve salvation, it will not be through our own efforts, rather it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God.

If God could grant me salvation, then I pray that people of all beliefs and no beliefs can achieve salvation. I say this because I have family and friends of many diverse beliefs, and I would not like to see any of them suffer hell.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

MustafaMc
01-24-2012, 12:58 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all, on both sides of the great divide.Peace unto you, Eric. Matthew 5:7-9 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

We strive to change other people’s beliefs, but we should strive to change ourselves first. Matthew 7:2-4 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured unto you. And why do you behold the mote that is in your brother's eye, but why do you not consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how wilt you say to your brother, 'Let me cast out the mote out of your eye; and lo, the beam is in your own eye?
If any of us achieve salvation, it will not be through our own efforts, rather it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God. Yes, only God is able to judge our hearts and intentions. In Islam the merit of any deed is found in the intention behind it. We also rely on the 'grace, mercy and forgiveness of our God.'
If God could grant me salvation, then I pray that people of all beliefs and no beliefs can achieve salvation. I say this because I have family and friends of many diverse beliefs, and I would not like to see any of them suffer hell. This is something I struggle with as I am the only Muslim in my family except for my wife, but I try not to dwell on it.

In the spirit of praying to One God

EricAmen to that, bro.

Burninglight
01-24-2012, 08:46 PM
Have you actually read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?
Those are accounts by supposedly writers of matthew, john, luke and mark. And in many passages, even the third person account became the second person account.Yes, be that as it may, it is what Allah said was sent and preserved. What are you saying then Allah can preserve, but he can't get his word to us? What point is there in preserving something if it is lost? If it is lost it is not preserved. I don't care if it is first, second or third hand account. What is important is that we have an account, and we do just as promised by God!

If one doesn't like the account because it clashes with newer revelation, then the newer must be suspect for God is not the author of confusion, He always confirms new prophets with the old. Does it not state that in the Quran? So we have a problem, the Bible clashes with the Quran. Who is the one really being manipulated by Satan?

Eric H
01-25-2012, 10:38 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Burninglight;


the Bible clashes with the Quran. Who is the one really being manipulated by Satan?

Beyond any doubt the same God hears all our prayers, and God chooses whom he wills. But it seems that God has chosen us through the Christian faith, and our friends here, have been chosen by God through Islam.

It is beyond my understanding as to why God should choose us through our different faiths. Beyond any doubt whatsoever, I see my Catholic faith as being the One True Faith for me, and I believe that my faith is a gift from God.

I look at the deep faith of my Muslim brothers and sisters here, the way they talk about praying, fasting modesty, and their deep trust in their Scriptures. If my faith is a gift from God, I must also accept that their faith is also a gift from the same God.

In the spirit of praying to One God, every blessing to you all.

Eric

Eric H
01-25-2012, 10:42 AM
Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Thanks for your encouraging reply,

Every blessing to you and your family.

Eric

MustafaMc
01-25-2012, 12:56 PM
Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Thanks for your encouraging reply,

Every blessing to you and your family.

EricAnd peace and blessings to you and yours my friend, Eric. Who can argue with you? You present your position in an unoffensive way without attacking others. You respect the faith of others though it is significantly different from yours. You look for common ground and you don't emphasize the differences. You should be a leader of an inter-faith dialog group. :statisfie

ardianto
01-25-2012, 01:37 PM
Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh to Muslims. Greeting and peace to non-Muslims.

If a Muslim perform salah in front of cross or statue, I must remind him to not do it. This is my duty as a Muslim. But if a Catholic pray in front of cross or statue?. That's not my business. He is not a Muslim. So, I will not do anything to him.

Every religion has it own way of pray that look strange for people from other religions. But this is not an excuse to insult each other, mocking each other. There is no advantage that we can get if we do this.

Better we build religious tolerance.

Eric H
01-26-2012, 09:30 PM
Greetings and peace be with you ardianto;

Every religion has it own way of pray that look strange for people from other religions. But this is not an excuse to insult each other, mocking each other. There is no advantage that we can get if we do this.

Better we build religious tolerance.

Ameen to that.

Every blessing

Eric

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 10:59 PM
Satan doesn't just manipulate Christians he does it to Muslims as well. In fact, he does it to all people groups and religions. Those who cannot see this have been manipulated by Satan to think that way.
;D

Burninglight
02-01-2012, 11:31 PM
I believe that the use of the terms 'Son' and 'Father' in the gospels are figurative not literal as illustrated by John 20:16-17 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. Can you extract yourself from your Christian faith and read those last few words from an unbiased perspective? Jesus put himself on equal footing as his disciples with them having the same relation to God as 'my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."Yes, but you can't take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. It has to be balanced with other Scripture. God is father of all His creation in the general sense, but in another sense He is not. for Satan has his children. so we are all God's creation but we are not all His children.

It is the father (God) that calls Jesus His "beloved Son" "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased hear ye Him" God didn't say "my begotten son" He said, "beloved Son." In other words, this speaks of the uniqueness of Christ's Sonship especially since he had no earthly father with the exception of Joseph who didn't beget Jesus, but God did through the Holy Spirit as a miraclous Immaculate Conception without the intervention of sexual intercourse. Adam was created without a mother but his father was God, but unlike Jesus who always existed as God's word. That is why Jesus is considerd the last Adam. The first Adam screwed things up for mankind, but the last Adam reconciles us to God.

Sadly, IMO, Christians are placing their trust for salvation in the very thing that puts them in danger of the Hellfire. I know from personal experience that unless God opens your eyes, you will not be able to see the truth that there is only One God and that Muhammad was His messenger and servant.Well, this is were Christianity and Islam part ways. We believe God had already established the way to heaven before Muhammad was born as documented in the Bible. We see no reason why God should change His terms during Muhammad's life time or Joseph Smith life time who also was visited by angels giving him the book of Mormon. We must meet God on His terms or it is at our peril to do otherwise.

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