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akulion
09-18-2006, 12:24 AM
salam alaikum

as many of you may be aware of Bush's statements regarding God spoke to him and told him to do certain things:

'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Source: BBC

Now this poses a new avenue of questions for Christians in SPECIFIC:

- Do you believe what he said?

- Does God really speak to people 1-on-1 and tell them to go around doing things?

- If yes then would you believe me if I told you God told me to do something?

What if tomorrow people started killing others and said "God told me to"

Is this an acceptable excuse?

What about vigilanti justice? Should it be carried out because someone said "God told me to?"

What justification is there in this world for "God told me to" in the legal and logical sense?

These are important questions because they demonstrate 1 out of 3 possibilities:

A) Either George Bush is a liar

B) Either George Bush is a lunatic (mentally insane)

C) God is really speaking to George Bush

====================================

So to get to my question (in particular to Christians on his board) - what do you believe out of the 3 choices above and most importanly how can you confirm that "god is speaking to someone" and its not lunacy or lies? Please provide solid evidence to back your claims.

Thanks

Aku
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-18-2006, 12:38 AM
:sl:

6:93. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allâh has revealed." And if you could but see when the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong*doers, etc.) are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allâh other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect! "

:w:
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 12:40 AM
SubhanAllah, how absurd..
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akulion
09-18-2006, 01:03 AM
I agree its absurd and a lie (in my opinion)

But I would really like to see what fellow Christians think of this.....
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InToTheRain
09-18-2006, 01:19 AM
This man is so ignorant the you would be hard pressed to find some one that doesn't critisice him. You know times are hard when a man like Bush leads one of the most powerful nations on earth.

In fact what he says is used by many as an entertainment source. Many accuse him of butchering the english language and fear the new form of the language known as Bushism!:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm

This man digrades Bush at his white has Coresspondents dinner:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/d...83917758574879
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Mawaddah
09-18-2006, 01:21 AM
Oh I've read this and laughed at this ..........a long time ago.

God inspired him? hmmm.....most likely Shaytaan did.

Looking forward to see some answers from the Christians here though Insha'allah.
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glo
09-18-2006, 03:09 PM
Let me come out with this plain and simply: yes, many Christians believe that God speaks to them directly! (The truth is out now! :rollseyes )

I am not sure I have met anybody who has actually heard God speak to them audibly. Instead most people I have discussed this with, will say that this has come in the form of a prompting of the Holy Spirit:
  • a strong persistent thought forming inside their heads, or
  • situations prompting them into a certain direction repeatedly, or
  • Bible passages standing out in particular, or
  • sermons touching the heart in a special way, or relating particularly to a situation, or
  • having particularly vivid dreams


Does any of this make sense? :?

Now it has to be made clear, that any such occurance has to be weighed up very carefully!!!
Otherwise, somebody may follow the first angry thought that pops into their head, and go out to kill their neighbour because 'God told him so'! Or somebody may go and start a war because 'God told him so'!! (And occasionally that really does happen!) :uuh:

To weigh the truth of such occurances up, people need to
  • Wait for 'confirmation' - i.e. is this a one-off occurance, or does it repeat itself?
  • Check and discuss the situation with other, more mature Christians, and get their opinion
  • It has to be confirmed in the Bible

I would say that at least the latter two have to be done, before I would take any 'word of God' seriously at all.
Otherwise what you believe to be the 'word of God', may be from Satan or just wishful thinking on behalf of the person himself! :rollseyes

Do I feel God speaks to me directly?
Yes, I do!

Do I think God told Bush to wage war in the Middle East?
Most definitely not!
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 03:30 PM
bush is just a clown good for making people laugh !


he ran out of excuses, thought overnight while talking to his sock monkeys and came up wiv this non-senSe
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Abdul Fattah
09-18-2006, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Let me come out with this plain and simply: yes, many Christians believe that God speaks to them directly! (The truth is out now! :rollseyes )
So technically, wouldn't that make every christian a prophet?

I am not sure I have met anybody who has actually heard God speak to them audibly. Instead most people I have discussed this with, will say that this has come in the form of a prompting of the Holy Spirit:
  • a strong persistent thought forming inside their heads, or
  • situations prompting them into a certain direction repeatedly, or
  • Bible passages standing out in particular, or
  • sermons touching the heart in a special way, or relating particularly to a situation, or
  • having particularly vivid dreams


Does any of this make sense? :?
How does this relate to a revelation? these are just normal signs.
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glo
09-18-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by steve
So technically, wouldn't that make every christian a prophet?
Not in the sense of adding to God's word ... but yes, some Christians refer to these as 'prophetic words'.
(I'm very hestitant to enter any further into this debate, because I can see that it will lead to misunderstandings ... :? )


How does this relate to a revelation? these are just normal signs.
So these are signs Muslims would also consider to be from God? We are in agreement then! :)

Don't know what you mean by revelation? A burning-bush-type-thing?
I don't know of any Christian in my circle of friends who has claimed to ever have had one of those ... :rollseyes
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Snowflake
09-18-2006, 05:07 PM
Quote:
'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'
That sounds just like something from the mouth of a schitzophernic.. the voices told me to do this and do that and I did it! Only in Bush's case it wasn't God. ^o)
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Abdul Fattah
09-18-2006, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Not in the sense of adding to God's word ... but yes, some Christians refer to these as 'prophetic words'.
(I'm very hestitant to enter any further into this debate, because I can see that it will lead to misunderstandings ... :? )
Ok fair enough, that case I suggest you don't. Rather safe then sorry right?

So these are signs Muslims would also consider to be from God? We are in agreement then! :)

Don't know what you mean by revelation? A burning-bush-type-thing?
I don't know of any Christian in my circle of friends who has claimed to ever have had one of those ... :rollseyes
Well the difrence is. The things that you listed, I would interpretet that as guidance, not as prophetic. In fact I shall refer to it as revelation rather then prophecy, because I'm uncomfterble using the word like this. The difrence between those two is:
1. A revelation (with words) would be like a clear cut advice/command , whereas the other is more like arrow pointing you in a direction.
2. A revelation would make God's existance obvious (thus changing believing into knowing) whereas signs still give atheism teh benefit of the doubt. They can be denied as coincedential, so to follow them takes faith.
Reply

Munawwarah
09-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Bush is full of crap. If God did talk to him how come he didn't tell him to get a new vocabulary the man can't speak worth a dime.
Reply

akulion
09-18-2006, 06:36 PM
Signs are something every nation in the past has searched for wether from their Prophets or on a personal basis....

Quoting a verse from the Bible, I think it would show what kind of people are always seeking after signs - it is something to think about indeed...

Mathew:12

35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

38: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

39: But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
Source Bible.com
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glo
09-18-2006, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Don't know what you mean by revelation? A burning-bush-type-thing?
I just wanted to clarify that this is a Biblical statement, as in a small tree on fire - not a political statement, as is Bush on fire! :uuh:
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
09-18-2006, 07:27 PM
1 word 4 that : pathetic..

serious dat guy nidz 2 go man, america needs a new president
Reply

glo
09-18-2006, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by steve
Ok fair enough, that case I suggest you don't. Rather safe then sorry right?


Well the difrence is. The things that you listed, I would interpretet that as guidance, not as prophetic. In fact I shall refer to it as revelation rather then prophecy, because I'm uncomfterble using the word like this. The difrence between those two is:
1. A revelation (with words) would be like a clear cut advice/command , whereas the other is more like arrow pointing you in a direction.
2. A revelation would make God's existance obvious (thus changing believing into knowing) whereas signs still give atheism teh benefit of the doubt. They can be denied as coincedential, so to follow them takes faith.
Hi Steve

That's why I was hestitant about entering the 'prophecy' issue - because I think we don't disagree on how God 'speaks' to or 'gives signs' to his people, we may merely disagree on the use of the word 'prophecy' ...

Back to the thread topic, I think it would be interesting to find out just what Bush means by God having spoken to him ...
I very much doubt that it was a revelation as you define it. :rollseyes

peace
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 08:00 PM
I highly doubt it was "God." I think it's just him telling himself...
God has left it up to us now with what we do. The steps we take. God has completed this idea of telling His people a long time ago...
Even if God was to do this...I think He would chose a more "pious" person...not Bush...>.<
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snakelegs
09-18-2006, 09:05 PM
well, i knew a guy who shot someone because (he said) god told him to do it.
he spent 10 years in prison, which seems like a good thing to me.
unfortunately, some people are above the law.
Reply

wilberhum
09-18-2006, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I highly doubt it was "God." I think it's just him telling himself...
God has left it up to us now with what we do. The steps we take. God has completed this idea of telling His people a long time ago...
Even if God was to do this...I think He would chose a more "pious" person...not Bush...>.<
I think that there are people who pray so hard for an answer that they decide that they received an answer and the answer is to do what they wanted to do in the first place.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 11:23 PM
yea like Bush =D looool
but i doubt he prayed...=\
Reply

wilberhum
09-18-2006, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
yea like Bush =D looool
but i doubt he prayed...=\
Bush is a truly a religious man. Now his moral coumpas points in a different direction than mine. I think your bias has got in your way that you view reality.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-18-2006, 11:46 PM
Lol dude u took it differently than how i was presenting it. Too bad I'm not bias. Im not the one to judge. So please how bout u dont judge me either.
k thnx
Reply

InToTheRain
09-18-2006, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Bush is a truly a religious man. Now his moral coumpas points in a different direction than mine. I think your bias has got in your way that you view reality.
I think what Tayyaba meant is Bush can't be trusted with what he says. Facts is he lied about many things for his own selfish ends. Given the poppulation of christians in USA I think his religious exterior gives him a great advantage in influencing the nation.

I know many people with diffrent beliefs who have a similiar bias of Bush, and honestly in this case it is justified.
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Keltoi
09-19-2006, 04:09 AM
I'm fairly skeptical of this supposed conversation in the first place, but just assuming it is true, I doubt Bush would say something like this with the intention of suggesting he "talks" to God. The extent of Bush's public statements on Christianity revolve around people praying for him and how he appreciates it. Then of course his statements that freedom is a God given right. Bush is sort of a lone wolf among Western nations because he publicly declares the importance of faith in his life, and by doing so becomes the source of ridicule by Europeans, and obviously the BBC.
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Curaezipirid
09-19-2006, 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by akulion
salam alaikum

as many of you may be aware of Bush's statements regarding God spoke to him and told him to do certain things:



Source: BBC

Now this poses a new avenue of questions for Christians in SPECIFIC:

- Do you believe what he said?

- Does God really speak to people 1-on-1 and tell them to go around doing things?

- If yes then would you believe me if I told you God told me to do something?

What if tomorrow people started killing others and said "God told me to"

Is this an acceptable excuse?

What about vigilanti justice? Should it be carried out because someone said "God told me to?"

What justification is there in this world for "God told me to" in the legal and logical sense?

These are important questions because they demonstrate 1 out of 3 possibilities:

A) Either George Bush is a liar

B) Either George Bush is a lunatic (mentally insane)

C) God is really speaking to George Bush

====================================

So to get to my question (in particular to Christians on his board) - what do you believe out of the 3 choices above and most importanly how can you confirm that "god is speaking to someone" and its not lunacy or lies? Please provide solid evidence to back your claims.

Thanks

Aku

Alaikumassalam, while I can amply comprehend the point being made in opening this thread; it strikes me also that there really is not much point at all in being overtly condeming of a man who is in such prominent fame.

I had a long think about perhaps what he was meaning. Sure he has probably lied often enough for us to be respectably calling him a liar; but I really believe that George Bush is not that much of an imbecile to be annoucing publically that he is with God in his own mind, as a Man whom has sat in the same room as a representatives of other nations whom are factually Moslem, without having some crediblity in what he is stating. So we really need consider what is his credibility in such rather than look to the obvious ease of flawing him. Perhaps he is tempting you to mistake his true meaning?

Now, I am neither one to want to call the man a lunatic; but I happen to believe that George Bush is one of those persons whom occasionally is wandering about and maybe he just got a look at the neighbouring persons computer screen in a moment in which he was afraid of the fact of being President of the United States, and in that moment he Prayed "God help me to get out of this", and God helped him by reminding him that there is no way out, by giving him one of those experiences of the whole adult life of another man experienced in a moment. Maybe in Allah when he wishes to not have to endure the full account of his presidency, his mind is whisked off to the Middle East to exist for a time as a soldier, just so as that he knows there is truly no way out. Perhaps he is only tempting us to believe that his experiences of such are insanity when he knows full well that some Muslims have such experiences as well; in fact any person whom has ever Dreamed is experiencing such a phenomenon.

So let us not Judge him, but only regard that his professed belief in One God and Jesus is that ground within which all Muslims will hold him amply to account. After all, we need to allocate some crediblity to that large population whom voted for him in preference to a person who was party to supporting known incidents of adultery.

I was walking down the street just the other day, and I suddenly noticed (probably right at prayer time, but I was not looking at a clock) that there was a feeling as though a large part of George Bush's awareness had suddenly centred upon my self. But what can any person equitably regard of such an incident as learning that perhaps George Bush was having a Dream of their own life. Perhaps he Dreams with Muslims precisely because Muslims are failing to digest the fact that he sure has a lot of Americans holding him accountable for having professed certainty in Jesus. After all, Jesus taught us that we must following him in death to follow him in life. I will take Mr Bush as a Christian if nobody else will; but most likely Satan has him.

Surely then no need for our accusations since he will only suppose that we relieve him a bit of his burdens.

Sadly it is that most folk who get the idea that God told them to do something, are actually mistaking a person whom has commited black magic for being God: better that they find they are confused by shaytan than confused in Allah, since that way that are at least accountible.

To answer George Bush; I would say "of course" at every turn; and expect that his Peace in the Middle East will come when there are no Muslims accusing him, and we can all trust in Allah that he also is accounted. wasalam

I should add to that here in an edit: I am in deed a Christian as well as being a Moslem, but hold no regard for the doctrine of any person whom follows a Rosicrucian influenced dogma, or imagery. wasalam
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Inshallah
09-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Americans are dumb enough to believe it though, they believe anything that monkey says. :)
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north_malaysian
09-19-2006, 08:49 AM
I wonder why Bush's God silent when Katrina hit. He's a wacko!!!:uuh:
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Duhaa
09-19-2006, 09:02 AM
About the issue of God speaking to man, it reminded me about the book Angels and Demons by Dan Brown and in there the man who gets killed in the beginning Leonardo Vetra says to his daughter (long before he died obviously) that the explanation to that is the thought is already in your head but God helps to put it in your heart.

So it seems like God is speaking to them. Obviously this is not islamic and is only a fiction book but it could be the problem with Bush that he already has these ideas in his head and then he dreams about them at night. He wakes up in the morning and thinks Gods been speaking to him.

.................well it was a good try.............


;D
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i_m_tipu
09-19-2006, 09:29 AM
____ told Bush (Fill the blank)

Bush lives in a dream world i guess

otherwise its quite impossible for any presedent to do like him

how many people have been suffering for his ideology
(Allaah knows the actual number)

but beleive me it will more number than any could realising
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Curaezipirid
09-20-2006, 05:41 AM
Alaikumassalam,

but how do we know that Bush was not in mind of "God" (however his regard for God is truly in Allah) when Katrina hit?

Maybe he . . . . No! I should not spell that out. But we really have no idea and can not have any idea of his own immediate account in Allah.

mu'asalam
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