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Joe98
09-18-2006, 04:00 AM
I have visited old churches in France and taken in the history and admired the artwork.


I have visited old Mosques in Turkey and taken in the history and admired the artwork.


Do Muslims visit old churches to take in the history and admire the artwork?
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Curaezipirid
09-18-2006, 07:44 AM
I guess Joe98, that some do and some don't, just like atheists.

Visiting the scenery is not what is required to be causal to the work of.

There is an Anglican Cathedral here in Brisbane which was begun 100 years ago, and in the more recently built end, it has a crescent moon and a star carved into the Masonry high high up where few can see it.

Now while it could be that in this time now, a few considerate, well meaning, and Faithful folk may be able to comprehend what occurred to enable that carving to be there; it could not be regarded to have been caused by us who comprehend such. But was clearly caused by the fact that before Australia was invaded by white men, and despite an earlier invasion of many East Asian Shaytan, there were Mujahideen at work among us Australians whom performed the Corroborees aligned to our Indigenous culture so as to cause that such things could happen.

I wonder who performed the deeds causal to mad cow steakhouses?

Wasalam
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 08:59 AM
:peace:

dont most churches have pictures of jesus (Isa AS) and statues of him/
Its very hard to admire somethin which goes against your religion :X... well for me it is..

:peace:
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Joe98
09-18-2006, 09:09 AM
In Islam Jesus is a prophet.

What is against your religion?
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Joe98
09-18-2006, 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
ago, and in the more recently built end, it has a crescent moon and a star carved into the Masonry high high up where few can see it.

This is most likely out of respect for Islam and Judesism.

How many mosques have crosses and stars?
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-18-2006, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
In Islam Jesus is a prophet.

What is against your religion?
:peace:

thanks for askinG :)

well making statues of Isa AS (jesus) is against our religion becoz we shouldnt try to imitate Gods creation and try creating it ourself. Also theres normally a lot of paintings of living creatures (humans etc) in churches and that goes against the islamic law which prohibits (living) pictures.

hope that answers your question :)

:peace:
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Abdul Fattah
09-18-2006, 10:37 AM
Hagia sophia in istanbull is a famous examlpe :)
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جوري
09-18-2006, 04:41 PM
I love art history and architecture...... actually I have learned a great deal about even scandalous things visiting museums and attending seminars which can be quite costly if you are not a member....... it is just a hobby I had on the side to deflect from stresses of daily life.... I have not visited the CHURCH OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE which was said to have been visited by omar Ibn Ilkhtab.... but when I get around to it I shall inshallah .......
on a side note though I like stained glass I look at it from an art point of view to me those figures aren't holy nor are they of Jesus anymore than the Danish toons are a depiction of prophet mohammed (PBUH).....
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Curaezipirid
09-19-2006, 08:11 AM
Alaikumassalam

There is a wooden carving that is meant to be of Isa at the same Cathedral I described; of a dude hanging on a cross anyhow. It hang over the pulpit and looks like a gargoyle.

I like big old church buildings. I reckon also that the stained glass windows are sort of story panels without true representation of the persons they name.

It is wrong to make likeness and worship them, since that can make it harder for a Soul to either decompose or burn that self that is being represented.

But most of the modern pictures of Isa are taken in form of facial structure from the shroud of Turin. There are a couple of European Scientists who proved that the Shroud of Turin was made perhaps by Leonardo DaVinci, and is certainly an early attempt at photography. But why would a person like Leonardo DaVinci want to make an image of his own self as to resemble Isa? I read an article about the science of this discovering in a British magazine called the Fortean Times; made by a bunch of folk who through the Henry Fort society (who ever he was?); and whom work to disprove any reports of supernatural events. Thereby they are left with a string of stories of events that are accorded the status of being truly supernatural because there is no pheasable alternative explaination.

It is really comforting that organisations like the CIA are also closely involved with investigating of such occurrances. Hi dudes!

I really really like old Cathedrals. My father imposed upon me unexpectedly as a teenager to write a school assignment about Gothic Architecture: flying butresses and all that! Cool! and cudos to Islam for the original science!

wasalam

I reckon that modern science has become veritably almost a decent religion in its own right: there are quite some many folk in Australia who would not be able to tell you on a good day what they truly believe. But they know it ain't church as they were taught of. But they also know that in their own experience of study of science there is so much unexplained about our immediate being, that how can we have made our existance so there must be a creative force larger than any Human or Jinn or shaytan or Angel. That certainty that has not been given any realistic model of faith needs for all us true believers to sustain our faith in its existance as life.

wasalam
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north_malaysian
09-19-2006, 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
This is most likely out of respect for Islam and Judesism.

How many mosques have crosses and stars?
There are lots ex-mosques having crosses in Spain...
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Curaezipirid
09-20-2006, 05:55 AM
Alaikumassalam,

that is good to know

there are Christian Churches in Ireland with sheilah-na-gigs above the door carved into the stone

A sheilah-na-gig is an Artistic expression of a woman's private parts like there are some of among Hindu Art. I guess it only is for marking the building itself as a vessel that is passive in what it receives. What are other symbols that are carved into stone that communicate to all persons what the nature of the function of any building might be?

Mu'asalam
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glo
09-20-2006, 06:22 AM
Personally I am not a great fan of gothic churches - which can seem dark and menacing.
This is the cathedral in Cologne (which I lived close to as a child, as which we still like to visit when we go to Germany)



Follow this link for more pics: http://www.koelner-dom.de/domgalerie.html
And here are some of the gargoyles somebody mentioned ... :uuh: http://www.koelner-dom.de/wasserspeier.html?&L=0
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Malaikah
09-20-2006, 06:31 AM
Glo, do the gargoyles actually mean something? or are they just art?

cool pic btw thats one freaky building
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Curaezipirid
09-20-2006, 06:40 AM
Alaikumassalam, nice picture, I like it most of all because I have been there also. But I was there only for one night and outside not inside. I was in 1991 early in the year, and we had a day time travelling ticket on the train but not enough money for accomodation, so we were going to spent the night in the nearby train station waiting room until we were invited by homeless folk to spend the night with them at a vigil against the Gulf war in front of that Cathedral. It was so cold. REALLY REALLY COLD. A prostitute approached me and asked me something like am I a woman but I was not sure about her meaning. I was wearing overalls and woollen jumpers and hats, and she had only a tiny dress and highheels and I thought why isn't she dead? The homeless people looked after us through the night.

The vigil against the gulf war had been started by young Peace activists but only the homeless people maintained it all night. That was unusual for me because I had been involved with the City of London Anti-Appartheid Group who had a picket on the South African Embassy in Trafalgar Square. We had to sit there all night. I had a visit from a person I met there recently and then got in contact with the person who had been the person with the job of ringing us up to make sure we committed to sitting in Trafalgar Square overnight. I liked that bunch of people because everybody was committed to a single aim. Everybody had very different backgrounds and everybody had found cause to loose any belief in the substance of modern social barriers. It was also a group of people whom had never learned of any way but protest as an expression of what they could perceive as wrong in modern society; but whom were still committed to working very hard to change what they could know as wrong. The nearby Church to that picket was Saint Martin in the Fields. I got to know some of the homeless folk around central London also: from being at that picket overnight, and because my children's father used to be a homeless person in London, and also by having a job with early morning shifts in central London. For a while I was supporting a whole household of anti-racist dossers in a squat in Brixton, but there were no gargoyles there!

Nice church picture anyhow. wasalam
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Curaezipirid
09-20-2006, 06:44 AM
alaikumassalam

now I am wondering: can a gargoyle represent a specific and specifically known, (so knowable) instance of black magic? They seem to represent that there might be some black magic around that could get you if you are not really careful. Like maybe: Be in Allah, and/or beware of shaytan who will look like this in your Dreams.

But I do not know!
wasalam
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glo
09-20-2006, 07:42 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Glo, do the gargoyles actually mean something? or are they just art?

cool pic btw thats one freaky building
Well, the gargoyles are described as 'water spewers'.
As far as I know they drain rain water off the roof.

I found this:
The word "Gargoyle" shares a root with the word "Gargle"; they come from "gargouille," an old French word for "Throat." A true gargoyle is a waterspout. An unusual carved creature that does not serve that purpose is properly called a "Grotesque."
Interesting site ... read more here:
http://www.stonecarver.com/gargoyle.html
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north_malaysian
09-20-2006, 07:48 AM
christianity is something new to Malaysia (except Malacca which Catholicism came in 1511), so most of the churches here have not so many artworks....
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glo
09-20-2006, 08:05 AM
The same is a case here in the UK.

You have to remember that churches don't all look the same - it largely depends on the architectural style at the time they were built.
Many modern churches - even Catholic ones - are much less decorative.
Protestant churches tend to be more sparse anyway, and don't have pictures of saints.

Actually, a church is not just a building, but also a term for the group of believers, the congregation, the worshippers.
The church I am part of does not have a building to call its own at all ... we meet in a school hall on a Sunday, and in people's houses during the week. There are no decorations or effigies, not even a crucifix.
Those things only act as visual clues or to focus people's mind (perhaps a bit like prayer beads) - they are not essential for the act of worship!
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north_malaysian
09-20-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Actually, a church is not just a building, but also a term for the group of believers, the congregation, the worshippers.
The church I am part of does not have a building to call its own at all ... we meet in a school hall on a Sunday, and in people's houses during the week. There are no decorations or effigies, not even a crucifix.
Those things only act as visual clues or to focus people's mind (perhaps a bit like prayer beads) - they are not essential for the act of worship!
Huh!!! so a church building is not 'important'? :uuh:
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-20-2006, 08:44 AM
why would people wanna make a place of worship gothic?
i just dont get it :heated:
wont that just repel people from goin there and repenting :?
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KAding
09-20-2006, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Mazed
why would people wanna make a place of worship gothic?
i just dont get it :heated:
wont that just repel people from goin there and repenting :?
Ehm. Gothic is also simply an architectural style. It doesn't even have to be ugly:

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IbnAbdulHakim
09-20-2006, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Ehm. Gothic is also simply an architectural style. It doesn't even have to be ugly:

http://www.friend.ly.net/~kellybr/Ky...hic_Church.gif
i understand :) . Still depressing tho !!
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F.Y.
09-20-2006, 09:49 AM
KAding, that pic is lovely.
I have been inside a few churches, but that was with school. I like the way light comes in through stain glass windows.
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glo
09-20-2006, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Ehm. Gothic is also simply an architectural style. It doesn't even have to be ugly:

http://www.friend.ly.net/~kellybr/Ky...hic_Church.gif
Lovely church, KAding. But that's surely not in the Netherlands ... :giggling:
(Actually, it looks like it could be British ...)
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glo
09-20-2006, 10:32 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Huh!!! so a church building is not 'important'? :uuh:
What's more important: the mosque or the Ummah?
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Keltoi
09-20-2006, 04:52 PM
The word Gothic now brings to mind a bunch of lost teenagers walking around with black hair and fingernails looking sad as they spend mommy and daddy's money at the mall. Sorry...that was uncalled for.
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جوري
09-20-2006, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The word Gothic now brings to mind a bunch of lost teenagers walking around with black hair and fingernails looking sad as they spend mommy and daddy's money at the mall. Sorry...that was uncalled for.
lol....... hey I went through that phase in my teens....... thank God I grew out of it in a hurry... link removed -content inappropriate liked the clothes.....I still have some friends stuck in that phase though..... at this age it is pretty scary for a whole new set of reasons..... we marvel and say nothing.......
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Joe98
09-21-2006, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Huh!!! so a church building is not 'important'? :uuh:

Thats's right.

So if a church is destroyed people are sad but ultimately it doesn't really matter.

If a church is old and destroyed then the people lose a lot of history and so people are even more sad. But again, it doesn't really matter.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-21-2006, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by glo
What's more important: the mosque or the Ummah?
BOTH! lol :)
but the state of the Ummah is highly important :)
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Joe98
09-21-2006, 02:10 AM
Therein lies a basic difference between Muslims and Christians.
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جوري
09-21-2006, 02:22 AM
And a very "basic" satisfaction drawn yet again from a simplistic conclusion ....
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-21-2006, 02:47 AM
Its not like its a bad thing if we have respect for our place of worship:)
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north_malaysian
09-21-2006, 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by glo
What's more important: the mosque or the Ummah?
well....... God is the ultimate important entity in our lives .... and the mosque is 'His' house.....

....ummah......is also important too.....erm..........

I dont know, maybe someone more knowledgeable about this can give the answer...
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north_malaysian
09-21-2006, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Thats's right.

So if a church is destroyed people are sad but ultimately it doesn't really matter.

If a church is old and destroyed then the people lose a lot of history and so people are even more sad. But again, it doesn't really matter.
I think Muslims cannot accept any mosques to be destroyed.....
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Malaikah
09-21-2006, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by glo
What's more important: the mosque or the Ummah?
I dont understand why you would draw this comparision? :?

When the prophet entered the city of madinah the first thing he did was build a mosque! thats because its like the central place, for meeting, worship etc... the mosque is it self a source of strengh for the ummah.
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Abdul Fattah
09-21-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
This is most likely out of respect for Islam and Judesism.

How many mosques have crosses and stars?
Joe did you know, during the time that the muslims took power in Spain. Cathedrals were build with teh help of Muslim architects. You can today still go and see those churches who have the typical cross-shaped size, but with midlleeastern patterns and gates. So I'm not talking about mosques who were later changed into churches, since you have that there to.
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Al-Zaara
09-21-2006, 03:57 PM
Greetings, Joe98

Yes, I have visited churches. Actually just two. :hiding:
I'd like to some day visit very famous ones... :)

glo and KAding, those churches look very cool!
Especially that black cathedral, glo! Spooky and mysterious.
I don't find the gothic style horrible at all... Actually, beautiful in some ways. But scary for sure. :giggling:

Peace
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Curaezipirid
09-21-2006, 04:52 PM
Alaikumassalam

The most spectacular building I ever have seen is Saint Basil's Cathedral in Red Square Moscow: but the story of its construction can not bear with repeating.

I wonder about the full array of stories of the construction of large Cathedrals and the genuine history of Masonry. What vestiges are there these days left among actual Masonic Temples of the real tradition? There are certainly an array of historic novels about masons which can establish nasty repeating patterns in any person's psychology. I know cause my Dad had been trapped into a couple of such patterns, by having had novels recommended to him in connection with his line of work. You'd think that there are still enough Masons around who realise that they can only thwart themselves be preventing true self knowledge in a man like my father, whom is an excellent scientist. Well, actually he never lost his self knowledge, and is permanently so enabled, but he got fairly forgetful in a very set pattern that thwarts his own cause.

Now, I expect that all actual Cathedrals have a connected history which can be accessed to present self decent psychological patterns to the visitors who can get there.

?

Wasalam
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glo
09-21-2006, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
I dont understand why you would draw this comparision? :?
If you read the whole thread, you will find that north_malaysian was surprised that our congregation meets in a school hall, rather than a 'proper' church ... and understood that to mean that the church (building) is not important (which, on the whole, I would agree with)

I drew the comparison because the term 'church' can mean two things:
  1. a building where Christians meet to worship God (the Christian equivalent to a mosque)
  2. the people who belong to the family of Christ, and who believe that Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God (the Christian equivalent to the Ummah)


From a Christian perspective the church building - though important - is by far less important than the family of Christ. After all, if we didn't have churches to meet in, we could meet in school halls, each other's homes, or even garden sheds and open fields ...
Jesus preached in the open air much more often than in the temple ... :)

Peace.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-22-2006, 02:01 AM


The Church in Cordoba, which used to be a mosque. So beautiful.
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F.Y.
09-23-2006, 06:37 AM
If you read the whole thread, you will find that north_malaysian was surprised that our congregation meets in a school hall, rather than a 'proper' church ... and understood that to mean that the church (building) is not important (which, on the whole, I would agree with)
There are many Muslim communities that use school halls as places of worship too, if there are not many muslims and they need a place to congregate but they dont quite have the finances to build a mosque. I completely agree, if you dont have a proper mosque/church, its not the end of the world. As long as the place is clean and you can worship without disturbance.
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Curaezipirid
09-24-2006, 04:14 PM
Alaikumassalam,

Most Religions have an enormous amount of respect for any place in which any Holy event has taken place. It is the case among many Indigenous people that the events that are recorded as having taken place that were of a miraculous nature and so instilled Faith in Allah, most often took place in an outside environment. But truly it is by our worship of Allah in any place that it is provided with any sacred manfestation, and not that gargoyles are carved.

However I took this thread to be an association with the nature of the work of a Mason. Whom reading this thread regards that the history of European Church building has a significant place in respect of the belief of Freemasons? Have these buildings enabled Freemasons to sustain Faith in One God? Or is it that such tradition is best manifested as sustained through traditions such as visiting Ka'ba, and the older use of New Grange in Ireland.

But that reminds me. I learned about the initiations that used to take place at New Grange, which is 5000 yrs old, and then later I had a Dream that the same are manifest within a similar stone building somewhere in the Middle East. Could anybody clarify if this is the case?

Wasalam
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