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InToTheRain
09-21-2006, 08:30 PM
:sl:

If jesus wiped away the sins of all of mankind does that mean everyone is going to go to heaven? Does this mean no one is accountable for their actions in the hereafter?
Does this include the sins of before jesus's birth and or only those after his crusifiction?

:w:
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Keltoi
09-21-2006, 08:44 PM
The point is that Jesus suffered on the cross for all the sins of the world. In a way it does mean that all sinners have been forgiven, but it does not mean there won't be consequences for sin.
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InToTheRain
09-21-2006, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The point is that Jesus suffered on the cross for all the sins of the world. In a way it does mean that all sinners have been forgiven, but it does not mean there won't be consequences for sin.
Hi keltoi, thanks for response

So this means only some sins have been wiped off by jesus's crusifiction and we are still acountable for the ones that are not wiped off. Is this mentioned in the Bible?

Peace
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glo
09-21-2006, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
:sl:

If jesus wiped away the sins of all of mankind does that mean everyone is going to go to heaven? Does this mean no one is accountable for their actions in the hereafter?

:w:
If you read the gospel, you will find that Paul very much talked about salvation by faith, whereas James emphasised the importance of both faith and good deeds.
It is generally recognised that both views do not contradict each other, but instead emphasise Jesus teachings differently and to different audiences.

Here is a verse from the letter of James:
"It isn’t enough just to have faith. Faith that doesn’t show itself by good deeds is not faith at all—it is dead and useless. Now someone may argue, 'Some people have faith; others have good deeds.' I say, 'I can’t see your faith if you don’t have good deeds, but I will show you my faith through my good deeds' (James 2:17-18).
Christians believe that we receive God's grace and thereby salvation by faith. If we don't have faith, then no matter how good and charitable, and honest and caring we are, we do not receive salvation.

But that does not mean that we are not judged by our actions.
If we have faith and call ourselves true followers of God, then that should be reflected in our behaviour and in our deeds ... and we will be judged accordingly.

Perhaps this passage, which quotes Jesus himself, makes that clearer ...
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matthew 25: 31-40)
Does that help?

Peace
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InToTheRain
09-21-2006, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Here is a verse from the letter of James:


Christians believe that we receive God's grace and thereby salvation by faith. If we don't have faith, then no matter how good and charitable, and honest and caring we are, we do not receive salvation.

But that does not mean that we are not judged by our actions.
Hi Glo, your response helps some what but I need to be clear on this.

From what I know Jesus wiped the sins of all of mankind and Not just the christians. But From what you tell me I understand that Salvation or heaven cannot be attained unless one is christian or has faith in christianity.

So Jesus did not wipe the sins of all of mankind because:
1) You have to be a christians, and it is a sin not to be a christian. If all our sins were wiped off not being a christian would've led to salvation.
2) if all our sins our forgiven we shouldn't be accountable for our actions.

Therefore from my understanding of what you said there is a concept of accountability in christianity and therefore there are sins which cannot be commited as Jesus christ did not wipe it off or pay for it. As a result one can go to hell fire.

Conclusion: Jesus christ did not pay for the sins of all of mankind. Am I correct?

peace
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Allah-creation
09-21-2006, 10:00 PM
One thing that really trouble me is that why would God( IN chrestian view) creat humans as siners. WHy would he need 2 make a sacrifice to fix the problem?

Did god made a mistake? in christian views? I completely go against christian believes.
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Keltoi
09-21-2006, 10:30 PM
In the Christian faith, all men and women are born with the taint of sin upon them. Christ suffered so that mankind could attain salvation through Him and Him alone.

I understand why many non-Christians have a problem understanding the complexity of Christian belief. In the early days of Christianity, many people converted to Islam because it was much simpler to understand than Christianity. The Trinity itself is difficult to understand to many non-Christians. I don't expect to be able to answer all the questions about the Christian faith well enough to change anyone's perceptions or make anyone understand. It takes quite a bit of time before one truly begins to understand the complexity involved with Christ's teachings.
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InToTheRain
09-21-2006, 11:03 PM
Sup Keltoi,

Originally Posted by Keltoi
In the Christian faith, all men and women are born with the taint of sin upon them. Christ suffered so that mankind could attain salvation through Him and Him alone.
This was actually discussed in great detail in another thread. I asked for clarifications (Last 2 posts) but none were given :cry:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...me-answer.html


Peace
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-22-2006, 12:24 AM
In the Christian faith, all men and women are born with the taint of sin upon them. Christ suffered so that mankind could attain salvation through Him and Him alone.
That isnt justice and this kind of a scenario goes completely against an All Perfect God. Christians beleive that God (the 'father') is All perfect, is that not so? Then being Perfect requires God to be the Most Just. What I see of Christianity puts God in a light that shows he isnt the Most Just.

The scenario (The Christian Belief):

God creates Adam. Adam commits the 'original sin', his children inherit them and all are therefore born sinful. Then the Son comes and dies on the cross and saves all of mankind with the requirement being that they have to have faith, i.e. be Christian. And whosoever is not a Christian, then he goes to Hell.

My question is, where is the Justice of God? He lets all of Adam's Children take on Adam's "original sin" and then He sends his 'Son' and lets him die so that Mankind be saved with a simple requirement of them having "faith" in Jesus.

The Flaws:

1) There is no Justice.
The point is that Jesus suffered on the cross for all the sins of the world.
God being All Justice should not have let
a) Adams sins go to his children. Adam commited the sin, he pays for it.
b) Jesus, His 'son' comes and dies for all of Mankind so they can be forgiven and attain "salvation"

One person commits the sin. Others bear it. Then someone else comes and takes the punishment for it. That is not justice. If a man commits a murder, his wife and children will not be held accountable. And then a person off the street will not be charged nor will he be punished for that murder which the other man did.
This is a blatant injustice on God's part in Christianity. And God being All perfect is the Most Just and cannot allow such a thing to happen.
2) Faith/Actions/Salvation. If I understood correctly, a person needs faith to attain salvation.
In a way it does mean that all sinners have been forgiven, but it does not mean there won't be consequences for sin.
a) That quote is self contradictory. A person is held accountable to answer for what he has done. A sinner is accountable for his sins, is he not?
But then, a person who is commiting all kinds of sins is already forgiven. Therefore he has nothing to be accountable for. Of what things will he face the consequences of? His forgiven sins?
b) How can there be consequences for sin when the 'son' has already:
suffered on the cross for all the sins of the world
Again it is a case of God being unjust to everyone, especially His 'son'. How can this be? How can there be such blatant contradictions in a religion from God?

I understand why many non-Christians have a problem understanding the complexity of Christian belief.
It is indeed complex. But when one understands it, he stumbles upon so many contradictions.

In the early days of Christianity, many people converted to Islam because it was much simpler to understand than Christianity.
Also the fact that there are no contradictions in Islam plays a major role.

The Trinity itself is difficult to understand to many non-Christians.
No offense, but a person that believes 3=1... 3 simply can never equal 1.

It takes quite a bit of time before one truly begins to understand the complexity involved with Christ's teachings.
The reason there are more and more reverts to Islam per day is that the message is simple, plain and uncontradictory. Therefore, it can be understood by anyone within half an hour. Whereas, as you said:
It takes quite a bit of time before one truly begins to understand the complexity involved with Christ's teachings.
I find it hard to beleive that, going back in history, that God would send Jesus who would sit down and explain all of this to people for days this complex a religion. I would think that God being All-Wise would send a simple message so more people can be saved and His 'son's' sacrifice be of use. But then all of Mankinds sins have been forgiven..so..

3:71. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"
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Allah-creation
09-22-2006, 01:58 AM
keltoi, u did not answer my wuestion.
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جوري
09-22-2006, 03:23 AM
the minute I see anything according to "Saint" Paul/saul... it pretty much answers the question for me... basically Jesus (PBUH) is innocent from it....
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Keltoi
09-22-2006, 02:28 PM
I'm not going to go through and answer every question Ahmed raised because they have been answered numerous times before on previous threads.

As for the perfection of God. That is sort of a strange accusation to make, since one could ask why there needs to be a Hell if God is all knowing and perfect? Why should sin exist at all if God designed a perfect creation? Why would Lucifer fall from Heaven and turn against the Light of God if God's creations are perfect? I don't know these answers.
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IceQueen~
09-22-2006, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The point is that Jesus suffered on the cross for all the sins of the world. In a way it does mean that all sinners have been forgiven, but it does not mean there won't be consequences for sin.
so he suffered for no reason then...?
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Keltoi
09-22-2006, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Marya
so he suffered for no reason then...?
No, he suffered for a great reason, which was God's forgiveness of mankind's sinful nature. Man is forgiven for all his sins, but man must accept this forgiveness. To make a longer story short, Jesus died on the cross to give mankind one last chance.
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glo
09-22-2006, 03:07 PM
Hi Marya

I try to avoid cut-and-paste jobs whenever I can, but perhaps this will go a little way to explain the Christians perspective.
I understand that much of this is very alien to Muslims, so I don't expect it to 'make any sense' to you necessarily, but hopefully it will answer your question:

"God created earth and man perfect. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commands, He had to punish them. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. What is God’s just consequence for sin? “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

Even good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His goodness, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b).

Ever since Adam’s sin, every human has been guilty of disobeying God’s righteous laws. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy, but also includes love of money, hatred of enemies, and deceit of tongue. Because of sin, everyone has deserved death – eternal separation from God in hell.

Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, He didn’t leave them without hope of heaven. He promised He would send a sinless Sacrifice to take the punishment they deserved (Genesis 3:16). Until then, they sacrificed innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God that would bear their penalty. God reaffirmed His promise of the Sacrifice with men such as Abraham and Moses.

From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Sacrifice. One prophet, Isaiah, described him [and his death in a quite detailed way:] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2;&version=31;

[...]

Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).

Why did Jesus have to die? The prophecy explains, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him [Jesus] the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6). Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell."
(Taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/why-Jesus-die.html)

What this is saying basically, is that humans became so distanced from God by disobeying his commands (starting with Adam and Eve) that there really was not way humans could pay for their sins themselves.
They couldn't become clean and holy and good enough out of their own doing - instead they needed somebody else (the perfect being ever to walk this earth - Jesus) to pay for them!

I am not sure if there is anything else I could add to it to make it clearer, but if you have any other questions, I will try my best to answer them ... although I often find it very hard to explain. So bear with me. :)

Peace :)
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glo
09-22-2006, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No, he suffered for a great reason, which was God's forgiveness of mankind's sinful nature. Man is forgiven for all his sins, but man must accept this forgiveness. To make a longer story short, Jesus died on the cross to give mankind one last chance.
lol

You really did make a long story short, Keltoi!
I like your post much better than mine! :D
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glo
09-22-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Hi Glo, your response helps some what but I need to be clear on this.

From what I know Jesus wiped the sins of all of mankind and Not just the christians. But From what you tell me I understand that Salvation or heaven cannot be attained unless one is christian or has faith in christianity.

So Jesus did not wipe the sins of all of mankind because:
1) You have to be a christians, and it is a sin not to be a christian. If all our sins were wiped off not being a christian would've led to salvation.
2) if all our sins our forgiven we shouldn't be accountable for our actions.

Therefore from my understanding of what you said there is a concept of accountability in christianity and therefore there are sins which cannot be commited as Jesus christ did not wipe it off or pay for it. As a result one can go to hell fire.

Conclusion: Jesus christ did not pay for the sins of all of mankind. Am I correct?

peace

Perhaps the previous posts answer your questions too, WnbSlveOfAllah.


I think the misunderstanding lies with Muslims seem to think that Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins, so everything is hunky-dory and we can now all do what we like ...

That's not the case.
I won't repeat myself, but if you read the previous posts you may understand that Jesus 'paying for our sins' does not mean that sins don't happen anymore or that they don't matter anymore.
But by confessing and repenting our sins and trying our hardest not to commit them again, Jesus' death has given us God's grace and mercy to be forgiven.

Does that make more sense ('cos quite frankly, I am running out of way to explain it.) :hiding:

Peace :D
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IceQueen~
09-22-2006, 03:17 PM
thanks for explaining glo.....*confused* ur right i probs don't understand the logic cos its alien to me...:/
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glo
09-22-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Marya
thanks for explaining glo.....*confused* ur right i probs don't understand the logic cos its alien to me...:/
I try, Marya, I try! :giggling:

Don't worry, sister, there is much in Islam I cannot get my head round either! :?

Peace
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IceQueen~
09-22-2006, 03:21 PM
hm.. well there are lots of things people don't undertsnad about eachother but at least we undertsnad to respect eachother and thats what counts alhamdu lillah :)
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Keltoi
09-22-2006, 03:23 PM
This might be too philosophical, but I believe one of the primary reasons there is a difference in reasoning when religion is involved is the Greek roots of Western thought. We view spirituality and faith in different ways.
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IceQueen~
09-22-2006, 03:25 PM
yes I see what you mean- that IS true..
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-22-2006, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm not going to go through and answer every question Ahmed raised because they have been answered numerous times before on previous threads.
I raised them again because ive never seen a satisfying answer. It always comes back to faith and a person is expected to overlook the contradictions or else he has no faith. A person is expected to take what ever he is being spoonfed without asking what is he being made to eat.

As for the perfection of God. That is sort of a strange accusation to make, since one could ask why there needs to be a Hell if God is all knowing and perfect? Why should sin exist at all if God designed a perfect creation? Why would Lucifer fall from Heaven and turn against the Light of God if God's creations are perfect? I don't know these answers.
Not at all. I never said the creation is perfect. I said God is perfect. Sin would exist (and does) to test mankind, God isnt going to enter everyone into Paradise, now is he? It exists to seperate the evil from the good. Hell would exist to punish the sinners. Satan would disobey God so that he can do what God has predestined for him to do, and this is mislead mankind from the Truth. That is part of God's perfect plan. Therefore, I wasnt accusing God of being imperfect, I was saying the Christian perception of God is false, due to their blatant contradictions about God. As I can see by your posts, the average Christian doesnt have the answers to these questions which are supposed to be part of his faith.
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Keltoi
09-22-2006, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
I raised them again because ive never seen a satisfying answer. It always comes back to faith and a person is expected to overlook the contradictions or else he has no faith. A person is expected to take what ever he is being spoonfed without asking what is he being made to eat.



Not at all. I never said the creation is perfect. I said God is perfect. Sin would exist (and does) to test mankind, God isnt going to enter everyone into Paradise, now is he? It exists to seperate the evil from the good. Hell would exist to punish the sinners. Satan would disobey God so that he can do what God has predestined for him to do, and this is mislead mankind from the Truth. That is part of God's perfect plan. Therefore, I wasnt accusing God of being imperfect, I was saying the Christian perception of God is false, due to their blatant contradictions about God. As I can see by your posts, the average Christian doesnt have the answers to these questions which are supposed to be part of his faith.
What "questions" are you referring to?, and what "contradictions"? The fact that my faith is different than yours doesn't mean I am obligated to convince you of anything. I've attempted to explain the issue of sin and the result of Christ's suffering for the sins of the world. Glo has posted several informative posts on this topic. I'm not sure what else you expect. If you don't understand it, that is understandable, as you aren't a Christian. I don't understand Islam to the extent I would like because I'm not a Muslim.
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InToTheRain
09-23-2006, 12:34 AM
greetings,

Originally Posted by Keltoi
No, he suffered for a great reason, which was God's forgiveness of mankind's sinful nature.Man is forgiven for all his sins, but man must accept this forgiveness.
So God punishes the person he loves for the sins of those who he hates enough to burn in hellfire? In the day of judgement, will God punish Jesus some more for my sins? " If this is what you are telling me then it clearly defies reason and it's completely unjust.


Originally Posted by Keltoi
To make a longer story short, Jesus died on the cross to give mankind one last chance.
Why is it seen as a sacrifice for the benefit of mankind? Didn't Jesus say "O lord, O lord why hast thou forsaken me?", doesn't this prove he wasn't willing to die but rather he was killed by force?

Under what conditions can someone enter heaven christianity?

peace
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Ali_slave of Allah
09-23-2006, 05:14 AM
r u telling me that a person can do wat eva he wants to do but he has to be chirstian
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Keltoi
09-23-2006, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by calik
r u telling me that a person can do wat eva he wants to do but he has to be chirstian
No, that obviously isn't what I'm saying, which would be evident if you read past posts. This discussion is quickly spiraling into "my religion is better than yours", and quite frankly I don't see any reason to continue along these lines. Useful discussion and honest questions are a good thing, but when it becomes nothing but accusations and pointless bickering, it has outlived its usefulness.
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glo
09-23-2006, 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by calik
r u telling me that a person can do wat eva he wants to do but he has to be chirstian
<sighs>
Do members ever read any of the stuff people post here to answer questions about their own faith? :mmokay:
Because if people don't, I can save myself the trouble in future ...
:hmm:

Please read:
I think the misunderstanding lies with Muslims seem to think that Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins, so everything is hunky-dory and we can now all do what we like ...

That's not the case.
I won't repeat myself, but if you read the previous posts you may understand that Jesus 'paying for our sins' does not mean that sins don't happen anymore or that they don't matter anymore.
But by confessing and repenting our sins and trying our hardest not to commit them again, Jesus' death has given us God's grace and mercy to be forgiven.
peace
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Woodrow
09-23-2006, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
No, that obviously isn't what I'm saying, which would be evident if you read past posts. This discussion is quickly spiraling into "my religion is better than yours", and quite frankly I don't see any reason to continue along these lines. Useful discussion and honest questions are a good thing, but when it becomes nothing but accusations and pointless bickering, it has outlived its usefulness.
I agree. Time for this thread to end on a Peacefull tone. Some good thoughts were made. But, now it seems it has reached the point were people are skipping what was said and just read the last post and reply based on that.


:threadclo
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