Rabbis Agree with Ahmadinejad

[Kidman]

CBS) NEW YORK Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad railed against "Zionists" during a meeting with rabbis who agreed with him during a strange meeting in New York City on Thursday.

CBS affiliate WCBS-TV gained exclusive access to the event, held at the Intercontinental Hotel in Manhattan.

"They have no respect for the lives and dignity of the Jews," Ahmadinejad said through a translator. "If they could they would destroy 6 billion people in the world.

"But their time is ending, God willing," he said.

The rabbis, who believe Israel's founding violated God's will, had praise for the controversial Iranian leader.

"God should give you long life and health and strength and not to be intimidated by the attacks of Zionism, that is attacking you as being anti-Semitic, which is a pure ploy of Zionism to intimidate people," said Rabbi Yisroel David Weiss of United Jews Against Zionism. "They shouldn't speak up against their illegitimate state."

Ahmadinejad again questioned the existence of the Holocaust. The rabbis, some of whom lost relatives in the war, suggested it was all a Zionist conspiracy.

New York City Jewish groups told WCBS-TV the meeting was a travesty.

When told by WCBS-TV that mainstream Jewish groups were calling the meeting an obscenity and a charade because these men represent nothing, Ahmadinejad replied, "Why are you asking this question from me? You represent Jews?"

http://cbs4.com/topstories/topstorie...265133602.html

Kidman

[Kidman]

Also, if you click on the link, you can see the footage of the event

Kidman

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Wow thats interestingly odd! Who woulda thought.

[Obi-Wan]

This organisation:
http://www.nkusa.org/
Orthodox Jews against Zionism

Has been against zionism from the start.

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[Ninth_Scribe]

Also, if you click on the link, you can see the footage of the event

Kidman

Lavikor told me on another thread that the Orthodox still believe in Israel, but they don't believe the land of Israel should be occupied until the Messiah comes, or something like that.

I'm from a radically different school (and I'm apparently the only person on the planet that sees things this way). I believe in Judea, because the tribes of Benjamin and Judah still exist. I refuse to accept Israel as a reality because that land belonged to the ten tribes the Judeans fought against. They were vanquished. According to the Torah, they are the only ones who can lay an ancestral claim to the lands that were Israel. In my book, because these brothers fought against each other (destroying the divine covenant they all made with God), this was divine Justice and it would be a blasphemy for any Judean to occupy what was Israelite land. Ezra himself didn't dare to do that upon his return from Babylon and he was a master of the Laws of Moshe (Moses).

Records indicate that the ten tribes of the Israelites were absorbed into the Assyrian culture, which later became Muslim. I believe the strain of the Israelite lines lie somewhere among the Sunni Arab peoples, though I can't prove that without DNA sampling. My reason for thinking this is only based on the fact that the Sunni Arabs are the ones who are the most offended by the Judean occupation of Israelite land. Such anger didn't come from thin air. They also share the same language, lineage and laws. I recall you clarified one of them when you confirmed for me that tattoos were allowed by the Shiite scholars... yet both the Judeans and the Sunni Arab Muslims agree they are haram. This isn't the only similarity in laws, by the way. I've logged quite a number of them. Enough to establish a viable connection.

At any rate, based on the information I have, if I were to judge the current condition, I would award the lands of Judea and half of Jerusalem to the Jews and restore the lands of the ten tribes of Israel to the Sunni Arab Muslim community, since that's the closest we'll get to a true Israelite strain. This is also why I didn't feel it was wise for the Mujahedeen to deal with the new Israel, as Zarqawi had wished. If they are brothers, they cannot lawfully fight each other... not without serious consequence... again! But the Shia, on behalf of the covenant of Islam, can lawfully engage in combat with the new state for the Sunnis, though I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

Of course, such a judgment is grounds for one hell of an argument, but I'm just in the mood and I only need one good excuse to get the ball rolling! It would simplify things immensely if the scholars would come forward and Assemble... they're the ones who should be duking it out.

Ninth Scribe

[Kidman]

thanks for the post Ninth Scribe, interesting read

Kidman

[Geronimo]

This organisation:
http://www.nkusa.org/
Orthodox Jews against Zionism

Has been against zionism from the start.

Look up the nk. They are by no means mainstream. They have been dirsregarded as misinterpreting the Talmud by almost every Jewish organization out there. These people aren't your friend. They believe you all will be wiped out when the Messiah get's here.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Look up the nk. They are by no means mainstream. They have been dirsregarded as misinterpreting the Talmud by almost every Jewish organization out there. These people aren't your friend. They believe you all will be wiped out when the Messiah get's here.

If the Messiah (Mahdi, etc) is ruled by WISDOM - no one gets... wiped out :okay:

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

thanks for the post Ninth Scribe, interesting read

Kidman

No problem. Family fueds happen to be a specialty of mine, from way back in the day, lol.

[Obi-Wan]

Look up the nk. They are by no means mainstream. They have been dirsregarded as misinterpreting the Talmud by almost every Jewish organization out there. These people aren't your friend. They believe you all will be wiped out when the Messiah get's here.

I think you're confusing them with Rapture Ready.

[therebbe]

Lavikor told me on another thread that the Orthodox still believe in Israel, but they don't believe the land of Israel should be occupied until the Messiah comes, or something like that.

I'm actually a very religious Jew and I would prefer you not call these people "Jews". They disragard a lot of Jewish Law, and they have banished from about every Shul in New York because of their hatred and hypocrisy when it comes to Jewish Law.

Would just like to let you know that calling these people "Rabbi's" is like calling Osama the holiest of Muslims who speaks for all of you.

[Obi-Wan]

Which Jewish laws do they disregard?

[therebbe]

Which Jewish laws do they disregard?

A variety involving Halacha, Shabbos, Mandetory prayers, ethics, and relations towards both economic, and socialy.

All violations of Jewish Law.

[Kidman]

So because they don't follow the Torah differently than you, they are not Jews?

Kidman

[ManchesterFolk]

So because they don't follow the Torah differently than you, they are not Jews?

Kidman

No. Because they disregard many laws of the Torah as the rebbe said.

Would you like me to quote so called "Imaam's" who say the Laws of the Quran should not be followed fully, and then label this as a legit source of Islamic thought?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No Imam would say that. Whenever we discuss anything from the Quran, we always refer back. Its a sin upon us to misquote the Quran.

[ManchesterFolk]

No Imam would say that. Whenever we discuss anything from the Quran, we always refer back. Its a sin upon us to misquote the Quran.

Exactly. So I can see why the Rebbe can be offended by someone not knowledgeable about Judaism to call these people "Rabbi's" or "Authorities" when in reality they do not follow the Holy Scritpures of Judaism.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

True.

[Sherrif]

So I can see why the Rebbe can be offended by someone not knowledgeable about Judaism to call these people "Rabbi's" or "Authorities" when in reality they do not follow the Holy Scritpures of Judaism.

But Neturei Karta claims that they deduce their interpretation directly from Torah and that the establishment of a jewish state in Palestine is a violation of Judaism. Why should anyone disregard them? Becasue you don't accept their interpretation of Torah?

[therebbe]

But Neturei Karta claims that they deduce their interpretation directly from Torah and that the establishment of a jewish state in Palestine is a violation of Judaism. Why should anyone disregard them? Becasue you don't accept their interpretation of Torah?

No. Because there interpretation is way off, and because they disregard and "choose" what rules to follow. G-d does not say "choose" my laws. G-d commands us to follow all Halacha. Not what you feel like. There interpretation of the Torah is diregarded as Khillul Hashem (Desacration of G-d's name) by 99% of Rabbinic Authority. Some are not even allowed in Shuls because they are such an abomination towards Jewish law while "Claiming" to the whole world they represent Orthodox Jewry, and their disgusting interpretation of G-d's laws is correct.

Imagine if a sect of Muslims began saying they were the authority on Islam, and began changing Quranic laws, and observing what they want.

[Sherrif]

Some are not even allowed in Shuls because they are such an abomination towards Jewish law while "Claiming" to the whole world they represent Orthodox Jewry, and their disgusting interpretation of G-d's laws is correct.

I believe this is more political than religious.

[therebbe]

I believe this is more political than religious.

Nope, not at all. When you desecrate the Torah, the word of G-d, and represent yorself as a so called "religious authority" for a vast number of people, but do not follow Jewish Law at all... It is completly religious.

[snakelegs]

A variety involving Halacha, Shabbos, Mandetory prayers, ethics, and relations towards both economic, and socialy.

All violations of Jewish Law.

this fringe group is sure popular here!
i know why they don't support zionism, but this is the first time i've heard that they don't follow halacha - what laws of shabbos don't they observe?
do they recognise the shulchan aruch?

[therebbe]

halacha - what laws of shabbos don't they observe?

They have spoken on microphones before on Shabbos, missed prayers to go to rallies, and taken buses sometimes there. They have declared some laws invalid, while there rabbi's create laws to suit there needs out of terribly mistranslated and taken out of context verses, and have violated many laws regarding ethics. Some Jews do not support Zionism, but the NK has become a desecration of Hashem's name. The worse part... they lie about it, like they think they can fool G-d!

They have commited many disgusting acts. One reason I particulary do not like them is that many dress as Chasidim, but are not pious, and they misrepresent us.

[snakelegs]

They have spoken on microphones before on Shabbos, missed prayers to go to rallies, and taken buses sometimes there. They have declared some laws invalid, while there rabbi's create laws to suit there needs out of terribly mistranslated and taken out of context verses, and have violated many laws regarding ethics. Some Jews do not support Zionism, but the NK has become a desecration of Hashem's name. The worse part... they lie about it, like they think they can fool G-d!

They have commited many disgusting acts. One reason I particulary do not like them is that many dress as Chasidim, but are not pious, and they misrepresent us.

thanks rebbe. i never know this aspect about them!

[therebbe]

thanks rebbe. i never know this aspect about them!

Most don't. They are good at fooling people. There was actually information found that they were in Arafat's pay roll at some point.

[snakelegs]

Most don't. They are good at fooling people. There was actually information found that they were in Arafat's pay roll at some point.

they are not chasids, right?
they could win a prize for the amount of press coverage they get in relation to their numerical size!

[therebbe]

they are not chasids, right?
they could win a prize for the amount of press coverage they get in relation to their numerical size!

Some say they associate themselves with Chassidim, some belong to chassidic groups, but all chassidic groups have formally denounced the NK. Actually, about every denomination in Judaism has denounced them.

[Obi-Wan]

...all chassidic groups have formally denounced the NK. Actually, about every denomination in Judaism has denounced them.

Is there a record of this?
Who denounced the NK and when? And how severely did they denounce them?

A professor of Jewish History and an editor of a Jewish newspaper are quoted in the following article. They don't seem to agree with you, therebbe.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feat...ndex.html?pn=1

On Saturday, when thousands of antiwar activists converge on the White House, there will be a small, silent group of Hassidic rabbis in black hats and curling sidelocks among them. Because it's the Jewish Sabbath, a day when Orthodox Jews abstain from all work, the rabbis can't take to the podium.

[...]David Biale, a professor of Jewish history at UC-Davis... At the same time, says Biale, the rabbis aren't entirely wrong to see themselves as the last remnant of traditional Judaism, preserving an ancient religion from the spiritual transformations occasioned by the shock of the Holocaust. "If you go back a hundred years, the position Neturei Karta is articulating was the position of most Orthodox authorities," he says. Nor has this position disappeared from all Jewish communities.

[...] J.J. Goldberg, the editor in chief of the Forward, America's preeminent Jewish newspaper, ... "A very substantial proportion of the ultra-Orthodox community shares the rejection of the Zionist notion," Goldberg says

[...] This has left Neturei Karta increasingly marginalized. "They've become a very minor force," Goldberg says. Still, he adds, "they've got some support at the rabbinical level because in a sense they do express a pure ideology of Satmar Hassidism."

BTW,
Neturei Karta may be a minor force, but when Netanyahu visited Monsey in 2002...

Although members of Neturei Karta admit they're a minority in Monsey, most other residents are anti-Zionist to lesser degrees. Last July, when Netanyahu was invited to Monsey to speak, rabbis from 12 local synagogues and rabbinical schools signed a letter saying, "We were astonished to learn that one of the leaders of the Zionist State of Israel was invited to attend a party in our community, and gave a speech there. This entity, which our rabbis have taught us is in opposition to our Torah, and which uproots our religion under the banner of nationalism, is the source of mischief, and is the root cause of all types of suffering experienced by our brethren in the Holy Land, exactly as predicted by our ancient prophets and by our rabbis."

A list of those that signed is here:
http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Docu...2statement.cfm

Are all those synagogues and schools Neturei Karta? If not, then NK does not seem to be ostracised.

Are David Biale and JJ Goldberg wrong?

[Ninth_Scribe]

I'm actually a very religious Jew and I would prefer you not call these people "Jews". They disragard a lot of Jewish Law, and they have banished from about every Shul in New York because of their hatred and hypocrisy when it comes to Jewish Law.

Would just like to let you know that calling these people "Rabbi's" is like calling Osama the holiest of Muslims who speaks for all of you.

My apologies. It becomes very confusing when people identify themselves by what they are not.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

I'm actually a very religious Jew and I would prefer you not call these people "Jews". They disragard a lot of Jewish Law, and they have banished from about every Shul in New York because of their hatred and hypocrisy when it comes to Jewish Law.

Would just like to let you know that calling these people "Rabbi's" is like calling Osama the holiest of Muslims who speaks for all of you.

My apologies. It becomes very confusing when people identify themselves by what they are not.

Fair question: How did these men acquire their title? Did they ordain/appoint themselves?

Ninth Scribe