/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Gush Shalom's Mohammed's Sword



جوري
09-24-2006, 04:42 PM
While I disagree with a couple of points about origin of palis... I thought this article was quite impressive... Balanced in a time when it is most needed....
Uri Avnery
23.9.06

Muhammad's Sword

עברי×&#1 70; / Hebrew attached

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306 - exactly 1700 years ago - encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted - of all people - a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had - or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt) - with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions: (a) Why did the Emperor say them? (b) Are they true? (c) Why did the present Pope quote them?

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. On May 29, 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes - Christian, Jewish and others - in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service - a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion - because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims - the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism" - when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?


GUSH SHALOM p.o.b. 3322 Tel Aviv 61033
Your donation helps make our voice heard
Please, send checks in your own currency – for confirmation of receipt include email address
In several countries tax-exemption can be obtained by donating throug local charities
info@gush-shalom.org w w w , g u s h - s h a l o m - o r g


\


\

__,_._,___
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
~Stranger~
09-24-2006, 06:55 PM
:sl:
could u plz give me the link for this article?
jazakAllah
:w:
Reply

جوري
09-24-2006, 07:00 PM
עברית / Hebrew http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/he
Reply

Keltoi
09-24-2006, 08:24 PM
How exactly is George Bush equivalent to a Byzantine Emperor? There is quite a bit of fantasy in this article. No matter how hard some people try to make some kind of weak connection between the events of today and the Crusades, it just doesn't hold water. Primarily because the events that have occurred since 9-11 have nothing to do with religion from the standpoint of the United States. The only people who are attempting to make this a war of religions are the terrorist leaders themselves and the pathetic people who aid them by writing articles such as this.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
جوري
09-24-2006, 08:35 PM
read some history books... use some abstract thinking, turn on your news every so often....then we can have this discussion....
Reply

north_malaysian
09-25-2006, 04:45 AM
He's an honest Jew.
Reply

جوري
09-25-2006, 04:58 AM
I really agree... The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "The greatest jihad is to speak the word of truth to a tyrant.......
Reply

Keltoi
09-25-2006, 06:08 PM
I know plenty of history. Equating George Bush with a Byzantine Emperor is cute but completely pointless. Bush is an Evangelical Christian, or Protestant, the Byzantine Emperors were Orthodox Catholics. Bush has made no statement or ordered any action that can be blamed on some "anti-Islamic" fable left over from the Crusades. Bush has stated repeatedly that Islam is a religion of peace. The Crusades have nothing to do with world events in 2006, other than another scapegoat or conspiracy theory.
On another issue, the Byzantine Emperors and the Crusaders from France were not friends, and probably considered the other enemies after 1095. It began when the Byzantines abandoned the Crusading army at Antioch, which the Crusaders considered treachery. There is much history here, none of which backs up some analogy involving George Bush as a Byzantine emperor.
Reply

جوري
09-25-2006, 06:39 PM
Ok! Thanks for that!... we must be watching a different set of news than the one you are watching....... Radical Islam never comes up neither does the word Islamofascism etc etc... Rumy wasn't just speaking about ending the reign of terror which conquered the world by the sword... we are all dreaming it.... Just like Bush dreams God talks to him of a new world order.....and you keltoi the only sage left in the world showing us the error of our ways.....
Reply

Keltoi
09-25-2006, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Ok! Thanks for that!... we must be watching a different set of news than the one you are watching....... Radical Islam never comes up neither does the word Islamofascism etc etc... Rumy wasn't just speaking about ending the reign of terror which conquered the world by the sword... we are all dreaming it.... Just like Bush dreams God talks to him of a new world order.....and you keltoi the only sage left in the world showing us the error of our ways.....
Radical Islam comes up quite a bit, but it wasn't the U.S. who caused that. The word Islamofascist is a bad choice of words, but I've yet to see another word to replace it that still describes what we are talking about. Terrorists who also have strong Islamic ideologies....can't use Islamic Terrorist, that is offensive, can't use Islamic fascist..that is offensive...perhaps "religious terrorists"?

I'm not aware of any "Rummy" speech involving "ending the reign of terror which conquered the world by the sword" either...if you have a link I would be happy to read it, although that still wouldn't equate a religious war, just one man's statement. As for Bush talking to God, that is all heresay and his own personal religious life. Just like the Iranian president being surrounding by a greenish light from Allah is part of his religious life. I'm not the only "sage", but I would recommend finding some way to debate a topic without resorting to meaningless sarcasm. You have your opportunity to explain your position.
Reply

جوري
09-25-2006, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Radical Islam comes up quite a bit, but it wasn't the U.S. who caused that. The word Islamofascist is a bad choice of words, but I've yet to see another word to replace it that still describes what we are talking about. Terrorists who also have strong Islamic ideologies....can't use Islamic Terrorist, that is offensive, can't use Islamic fascist..that is offensive...perhaps "religious terrorists"?

I'm not aware of any "Rummy" speech involving "ending the reign of terror which conquered the world by the sword" either...if you have a link I would be happy to read it, although that still wouldn't equate a religious war, just one man's statement. As for Bush talking to God, that is all heresay and his own personal religious life. Just like the Iranian president being surrounding by a greenish light from Allah is part of his religious life. I'm not the only "sage", but I would recommend finding some way to debate a topic without resorting to meaningless sarcasm. You have your opportunity to explain your position.
Actually I find the useage of words like "pathetic" and "cute" to fall along these lines you describe as sarcasm if you don't want to be met with the same don't start your sentences along those line... And, No I don't have the link to Rummy's speech it was spoken on CNN... turn it on every now and then, these are the people controling the country... that much power along with ignorance can only breed what do you propose?... equating religion with an act of terrorism is an oxymoron... was Timothy Mcveigh a christian terrorist? I didn't see his religion on trial. did you? I didn't see religion on trial with pedophile priests either, I didn't see a thousand websites popping on the evils of Islam....
Interesting you should bring Iran... why should one fight something that is so much like "itself" on the other end of the spectrum? I'd think they should basque in each other's bosoms....do two wrongs nullify each other?
What is your hopes with this soliloquy that uri Avnery and others adopt your subjective view because it is correct?
Reply

Keltoi
09-25-2006, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Actually I find the useage of words like "pathetic" and "cute" to fall along these lines you describe as sarcasm if you don't want to be met with the same don't start your sentences along those line... And, No I don't have the link to Rummy's speech it was spoken on CNN... turn it on every now and then, these are the people controling the country... that much power along with ignorance can only breed what do you propose?... equating religion with an act of terrorism is an oxymoron... was Timothy Mcveigh a christian terrorist? I didn't see his religion on trial. did you? I didn't see religion on trial with pedophile priests either, I didn't see a thousand websites popping on the evils of Islam....
Interesting you should bring Iran... why should one fight something that is so much like "itself" on the other end of the spectrum? I'd think they should basque in each other's bosoms....do two wrongs nullify each other?
What is your hopes with this soliloquy that uri Avnery and others adopt your subjective view because it is correct?
Nobody is equating religion with terrorism, but when an organization like Al-Qaeda releases videos of savage acts of violence followed by "God is Great", or mentions in each video that they are doing these things in the name of Islam, it sort of makes it hard to ignore. As for Tim McVeigh, I'm not aware of any claim of his to be killing people because he is Christian or because it was the "will of God", it was about "avenging" what occurred in Waco, Texas. Doesn't make it any better, but his justification or cause wasn't based in Christianity at all, if it had been, I would have no problem with the "Christian terrorist" label, because that would be what he was. A good Christian?, no.
Finally, I didn't say Bush talking to God or the Iranian president being bathed in green light was a "wrong" in the first place, you seemed to consider Bush's supposed "talking to God", wherever that came from, as wrong. The point about websites is sort of odd. People can come up with any website they want. I'm sure there are hundreds of websites about bestiality...does that mean the U.S. is promoting beastiality? There are plenty of things to criticize U.S. government policy, but attempting to frame this criticism in terms of a religious war is baseless and frankly counter-productive.
Reply

جوري
09-25-2006, 07:24 PM
It is a war against Islam and Muslims ... if you can't see that or view it as counter productive ... it is your prerogative and you have every entitlement to feel and think that way ... for the rest of us, it is visible to the naked eye....When they hold my Brother in the airport because he has a Muslim name but let Tadros from the same flight to the same country go because he is sporting a huge cross spells it out for me in huge letters. I don't have all day to sit here and prove it to you. because I am not sure how anyone can miss it?
It is Ramadhan and I don't wish to engage in vain discourse...peace...
Reply

Keltoi
09-25-2006, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
It is a war against Islam and Muslims ... if you can't see that or view it as counter productive ... it is your prerogative and you have every entitlement to feel and think that way ... for the rest of us, it is visible to the naked eye....When they hold my Brother in the airport because he has a Muslim name but let Tadros from the same flight to the same country go because he is sporting a huge cross spells it out for me in huge letters. I don't have all day to sit here and prove it to you. because I am not sure how anyone can miss it?
It is Ramadhan and I don't wish to engage in vain discourse...peace...
I'm not sure what happened to your brother, but some incident at an airport is very far from "proof" that there is a war against Muslims. With all due respect.
Reply

جوري
09-25-2006, 07:35 PM
What about everyday incident(s) in Afghanistan, and in Iraq (Abu Gahrib) and in Guantanamo ... what are the charges of these people? what about the Canadian Man who was sent for a year to be tortured in secret CIA prisons in Syria? don't tell me you missed that one too and need the link to it?... what are all these people being charged with?
Reply

Joe98
09-25-2006, 10:58 PM
What about everyday incidents in Afghanistan, Terrorists kill innocents and the US is fighting the terrorists

and in Iraq Terrorists are killing everybody and the US is fighting terrorists

Abu Gahrib That is run by the Iraqis please ask them

and in Guantanamo They shot at US soldiers


It is a war on terrorism. As I say keep saying, if Muslims claim again and again it is a war on Islam, Muslims will make it into a war on Islam.
Reply

جوري
09-26-2006, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
What about everyday incidents in Afghanistan, Terrorists kill innocents and the US is fighting the terrorists

and in Iraq Terrorists are killing everybody and the US is fighting terrorists

Abu Gahrib That is run by the Iraqis please ask them

and in Guantanamo They shot at US soldiers


It is a war on terrorism. As I say keep saying, if Muslims claim again and again it is a war on Islam, Muslims will make it into a war on Islam.
lol.... you are so under-educated...either this or you just like to imbue crap from Fox news and regurgitate back on various forums.... pls give us something to work with or don't waste our time... while you are at it... look up the definition of "terrorists" you'll find the U.S might just fit the bill.... one should have the good sense not to reply back to your posts at all...
Reply

ManchesterFolk
09-26-2006, 01:30 AM
In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith - and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.
Who lived there before Christianity and Islam?
Reply

جوري
09-26-2006, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Who lived there before Christianity and Islam?
Good question....
Reply

north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 03:23 AM
What about everyday incidents in Afghanistan, Terrorists kill innocents and the US is fighting the terrorists
Terrorists kill innocents and american invaders, Americans not really fighting the talebans, terrorists, osama etc because they dont put as many soldier as they did in Iraq...

and in Iraq Terrorists are killing everybody and the US is fighting terrorists
Terrorists are killing everybody and Americans also killed everybody....

Abu Gahrib That is run by the Iraqis please ask them
I dont know that those soldiers in the photos are Iraqis.:rollseyes

and in Guantanamo They shot at US soldiers
And how many US dead of that shot in comparison to detainees that committed suicide


It is a war on terrorism. As I say keep saying, if Muslims claim again and again it is a war on Islam, Muslims will make it into a war on Islam.

What's the reasons US attack Iraq? Terrorism?
Reply

north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Who lived there before Christianity and Islam?

Canaanites?
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-04-2009, 10:21 PM
  2. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-27-2007, 01:33 AM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-16-2006, 05:33 PM
  4. Replies: 38
    Last Post: 06-14-2006, 05:06 AM
  5. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 11-02-2005, 07:23 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!