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din_gen
09-25-2006, 02:21 PM
Hi All,
I'm really really sad to said about this thing as it represent a bad reputation for my country, Malaysia as one of the Islamic country in this world. :cry: But for the sake of truth and letting you all know about this situation, i tell you the story about the hot case regarding the apostate issues in Malaysia.

Actually, there a lot, but let me story about the very hot one. This case, i'm not sure either still pending or not in the court. This is not a conspiracy, it's a real story that really need your attention as the numbers of Muslim that convert into other faith is getting bigger.

The apostate person named Azlina binti Jelani. She wants to convert into christian after fell in love with an indian guy named, Johnson. The story getting hotter after she wants the National Registry Department to change her name to Azlina Lelani but her request was rejected due to the reason, the National Registry Department not get any approval from National Islamic Division.

Then, after several years, she came back to the National Registry Department to change her name to Azlina Joy. Her request accepted, but the title of Islam, still exist in her i.c religion name. For your information, during that time, she already convert into christian. :cry:

After several years, she came back to the National Registry Department and want the title of Islam in her identity card (i.c) to be remove and change with the christian. The National registry Dept. rejected her request and this really make her mad.

She drag this case to the Civil court and all her supporters are came from the variety of society and individual from inside and outside Malaysia, include from U.S.A, Australia and etc. That's really give a big slap to Malaysian Syari'ah court which is it seems it now have no power to the civil court. You can see the Constitution of Malaysia by click to the this link. See the article 11 and you'll see constitution that makes the Syari'ah law will loose it responsibilities.

Until today, i still not get the result of this hot issue. But for me, it really give a big impact to the Malaysian citizen, especially the Muslim if she win this case. :cry:
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Mawaddah
09-25-2006, 04:33 PM
I know, the apostasy rate in Malaysia is terrible. Subhanallah. I'm wondering though, is this Azlina Joy the same lady who spoke in the States about how she accepted Jesus as her saviour etc etc. ? :? I recall reading about it some time back but I can't remember right now......

What are the Sisters in Islam organization in Malaysia saying about this? Not that I really care what their opinion about anything is, but it's always interesting to see what other foolhardy opinions they throw into situations like this.
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din_gen
09-25-2006, 04:49 PM
Sisters in Islam? Hmmm, they all are fool. They support Lina Joy! What a shame of Islam that they have done... I've once visit Sister in Islam (SiS) website and you want to know what really makes me mad?

A visitor asking a question in the Q&A site, she asking about the possiblities married a person in different religion. you want to know what's the answer. SiS told her that it is allowed in Islam to married a guy that their faith is followed the previously al-kitab like Injil, Taurat and Zabur. They can married with this type of people without converting into any religion, meanwhile, the brideroom still can remain his religion. Astaghfirullah....

Besides, they said, women can't married with the people that their faith is not followed the previous al-kitab such as buddha, hindu and etc, unless they all convert in to Islam..

I thought, SiS is not suitable to use Islam as their society name, maybe they should be call "Sisters in SESAT".. hehehe
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Mawaddah
09-25-2006, 04:55 PM
^ S.I.I. Support this Joy!! Now why am I not surprised? It was exactly the kind of reply I thought that these Jaahil women would give. Astaghfirullah. And so what would Dr.Masyitah say also? I'm still remembering her crazy words that "pelacuran dibenarkan dalam Islam kalau terdesak " Prostitution is allowed if one is in a desperate situation.....

I'm remembering the hadeeth in which Rasulullah said "....... And the people will take Jaahil Leaders, and these jaahil leaders will give Fatwa without knowledge, and They will lead people astray...."
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Geronimo
09-25-2006, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by din_gen
Sisters in Islam? Hmmm, they all are fool. They support Lina Joy! What a shame of Islam that they have done... I've once visit Sister in Islam (SiS) website and you want to know what really makes me mad?

A visitor asking a question in the Q&A site, she asking about the possiblities married a person in different religion. you want to know what's the answer. SiS told her that it is allowed in Islam to married a guy that their faith is followed the previously al-kitab like Injil, Taurat and Zabur. They can married with this type of people without converting into any religion, meanwhile, the brideroom still can remain his religion. Astaghfirullah....

Besides, they said, women can't married with the people that their faith is not followed the previous al-kitab such as buddha, hindu and etc, unless they all convert in to Islam..

I thought, SiS is not suitable to use Islam as their society name, maybe they should be call "Sisters in SESAT".. hehehe
She converted and want her info changed no problem. If someone converted to Islam here in the US should we refuse to recognize it?
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din_gen
09-25-2006, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
She converted and want her info changed no problem. If someone converted to Islam here in the US should we refuse to recognize it?

Yes you right! It is due to the constitution of the country. No matter what country are you in, you have to follow the law and orders, isn't it? But as you, these constitution were made by people and it may have errors that we can't miss. The law that is truly must be follow in Islam is the law in Islam itself. Which is, once you have get into Islam, do not reconvert to another faith as Islam is the most pure and truth religion.
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Geronimo
09-25-2006, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by din_gen
Yes you right! It is due to the constitution of the country. No matter what country are you in, you have to follow the law and orders, isn't it? But as you, these constitution were made by people and it may have errors that we can't miss. The law that is truly must be follow in Islam is the law in Islam itself. Which is, once you have get into Islam, do not reconvert to another faith as Islam is the most pure and truth religion.
Since when did Malaysia start following Sharia by the book? You either do it all or none. You can't pick and choice. If other things against Islam allow why not conversion?
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din_gen
09-25-2006, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Since when did Malaysia start following Sharia by the book? You either do it all or none. You can't pick and choice. If other things against Islam allow why not conversion?
Since when you know about Malaysia? What you know about Malaysia?
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Geronimo
09-25-2006, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by din_gen
Since when you know about Malaysia? What you know about Malaysia?
That's besides the point. Am I right or am I wrong about Malaysia not fully implementing Sharia?
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din_gen
09-25-2006, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
That's besides the point. Am I right or am I wrong about Malaysia not fully implementing Sharia?
That's why i asked you that question. Malaysia fully implement Syari'ah without handling the Hudud penalization due to there a lot of races in different religion be the Malaysian citizen. My neighbour is a buddist and the other side is catholisme. We live harmony and tolerant discussing about some problem that related to the neighbourhood.
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Geronimo
09-25-2006, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by din_gen
That's why i asked you that question. Malaysia fully implement Syari'ah without handling the Hudud penalization due to there a lot of races in different religion be the Malaysian citizen. My neighbour is a buddist and the other side is catholisme. We live harmony and tolerant discussing about some problem that related to the neighbourhood.
Are you sure about that? I thought there was no country that fully implement Shariah? If I'm wrong let me know and I'll look up the contradictions.
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Zulkiflim
09-25-2006, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by din_gen
Sisters in Islam? Hmmm, they all are fool. They support Lina Joy! What a shame of Islam that they have done... I've once visit Sister in Islam (SiS) website and you want to know what really makes me mad?

A visitor asking a question in the Q&A site, she asking about the possiblities married a person in different religion. you want to know what's the answer. SiS told her that it is allowed in Islam to married a guy that their faith is followed the previously al-kitab like Injil, Taurat and Zabur. They can married with this type of people without converting into any religion, meanwhile, the brideroom still can remain his religion. Astaghfirullah....

Besides, they said, women can't married with the people that their faith is not followed the previous al-kitab such as buddha, hindu and etc, unless they all convert in to Islam..

I thought, SiS is not suitable to use Islam as their society name, maybe they should be call "Sisters in SESAT".. hehehe

Salaa,

cna yu post the link for that question and asnwer?For i doubt very much that they said it lke you mentioned.

thanks..
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din_gen
09-25-2006, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
Are you sure about that? I thought there was no country that fully implement Shariah? If I'm wrong let me know and I'll look up the contradictions.
Want to know why most of the country no fully implement syari'ah? because the conventional law that created by human was fully controlled the world. Can we call it capitalisme? So, the islam country were force to follow the law. If not, they will be blame by the reason of "human right violation". They will fully implemment syari'ah in the certain areas of law that will not affected the worlds human law.

And as you know, the human law is made by human. it still have have errors. If not, how can Michael mansfield be the most wanted lawyer for all criminals. Just imagine, how can a Super Drug Dealer being release from sentence just because the facts and talked given by lawyer michael Mansfield. Did being a Drug Dealer is accepted in Law? If can, everybody also want to be a super drug dealer.
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Zulkiflim
09-25-2006, 06:05 PM
Salaam,

For the woman she should have been counseled,her love for the man has blocked her senses?

This has happeend to my niece in SG,she siad she is converting to Chrsitianity and we asked her,what do you know about Chrsitianty..
She said it is love unlike Islam.

and so we asked her,what do you know of Islam,,and she said what she gathered from the media of course,that we are terrorist and women are forced to cover themselves and what not...

And so asked her,in christianity doctorination of Love,,,,is there any limit to what you cna or cannot do?

She was perplexed,,she thought the word Love encomapasses all.

So we asked her,in the faith she is following,is there any laws that she cannot do?

and so she asked and carefully looked around went to her boyfriend church and asked why do the nuns wear the Habit?

And the reply was simple,,casue it is INNOCENT...

The next question she asked,do god love them more or me..
The Boyfriend kept quite.

Next she asked,i pray only on sun...they pray everyday,do god love them or me.

The boyfriend said It is equal..

So here she is boozing and having wild lifetime with her boyfriend and STILL THINK that god loves her as equal to monks and nuns who give up all for god..

She was shocked and found this extremely shocking..
Alhamdullah....now she wears the Hijab and is fuflilling her role as a muslimah..
Alhamdulilah...
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Trumble
09-25-2006, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
She converted and want her info changed no problem. If someone converted to Islam here in the US should we refuse to recognize it?
Hear, hear! I smell hypocrisy, I'm afraid.

Good luck to her.
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Geronimo
09-25-2006, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

For the woman she should have been counseled,her love for the man has blocked her senses?

This has happeend to my niece in SG,she siad she is converting to Chrsitianity and we asked her,what do you know about Chrsitianty..
She said it is love unlike Islam.

and so we asked her,what do you know of Islam,,and she said what she gathered from the media of course,that we are terrorist and women are forced to cover themselves and what not...

And so asked her,in christianity doctorination of Love,,,,is there any limit to what you cna or cannot do?

She was perplexed,,she thought the word Love encomapasses all.

So we asked her,in the faith she is following,is there any laws that she cannot do?

and so she asked and carefully looked around went to her boyfriend church and asked why do the nuns wear the Habit?

And the reply was simple,,casue it is INNOCENT...

The next question she asked,do god love them more or me..
The Boyfriend kept quite.

Next she asked,i pray only on sun...they pray everyday,do god love them or me.

The boyfriend said It is equal..

So here she is boozing and having wild lifetime with her boyfriend and STILL THINK that god loves her as equal to monks and nuns who give up all for god..

She was shocked and found this extremely shocking..
Alhamdullah....now she wears the Hijab and is fuflilling her role as a muslimah..
Alhamdulilah...
So in other words you filled her head with nonsense to keep her from converting. Nice
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Joe98
09-25-2006, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
She said it is love unlike Islam.

And so asked her, in Christianity doctrine of Love,,,,is there any limit to what you can or cannot do?

She was perplexed,,she thought the word Love encompasses all.

Yes, Love covers everything.

Love is the doctrine of Atheists too! :love:


format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
So we asked her, in the faith she is following, is there any laws that she cannot do?
The doctrine of Love covers every situation.


format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
So here she is boozing and having wild lifetime with her boyfriend and STILL THINK that god loves her as equal to monks and nuns who give up all for god.

According to the Christian belief, God loves everyone equally. He doesn’t love one person more than another.

Perhaps a Muslim can tell us about the Muslim belief in the matter of God’s love.
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starfortress
09-26-2006, 04:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Yes, Love covers everything.

Love is the doctrine of Atheists too! :love:




The doctrine of Love covers every situation.





According to the Christian belief, God loves everyone equally. He doesn’t love one person more than another.

Perhaps a Muslim can tell us about the Muslim belief in the matter of God’s love.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

Muslim beleif of God love are different compared to the human type of love(stereotype love).God love is more than we could imagine,of course He is the creator of the universe.

Everyone wants to be with those who they love,someone you can trust and rely on it.And naturally you will share something beautiful with your couple or partner also a friend.Thats only a little bit reflection from Divine love.

This is why Paradise, which Allah promises to those faithful servants He loves and with whom He is pleased, is an extraordinarily beautiful place where true love, friendship, and closeness are lived with great happiness.

According to the Christian belief, God loves everyone equally. He doesn’t love one person more than another.
For Islam God does not love the Negative as mentioned in Holy Quran 22 times.One of God qulity is Al-Hakkam(The Judge, the Arbitrator )

1. God does not love the Those involved in brutal aggression. 2:190/5:90/7:55
2. God does not love the the corrupt. 2:205/5:67/28:77
3. God loves not the the unbelievers. 2:276/3:32/30:45
4. God loves not the the wrongdoers. 3:57/3:140/42:40
5. God loves not the the wasters. 6:141/7:31
6. God loves not the boaster. 31:18/57:23/4:36
7. God loves not the proud and boasting. 16:23
8. God loves not those who boast in their riches. 28:76
9. God loves not the treacherous. 8:58
10. God does not love those who are given to crime and to evil speaking. 4:107/4:148

God's love for Man 20 times mentioned in Holy Quran

1. God loves those who do good. 2:195/3:134/3:148/5:14/5:96
2. God loves the pure and clean. 2:222/9:108
3. God loves those who are righteous. 3:76/9:4/9:7/19:96
4. God loves those who are just and judge rightly. 5:45/49:9/60:8
5. God loves those who trust Him. 3:159
6. God loves the persevering or patient. 3:146
7. God loves those who love Him and follow the Prophet. 3:31
8. God Himself will produce a people He will love. 5:57
9. God loved Moses. 20:39
10. God loves those who fight in His cause. 6:14

The 99 names of god are be taken as attributes the quality of Allah.So the doctrine of tawhid or the oneness of God is equal to all in universe not a stereotype love.


The doctrine of Love covers every situation.
Every situation?
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north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 04:30 AM
I'm watching this thread.....:uuh:
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Joe98
09-26-2006, 06:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by starfortress
Every situation?

Yes. Follow the doctrine of love and the world would be a better place.
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north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 06:28 AM
Actually about 1 or 2 months ago syilla and I discussed whether we should create this thread (about Lina Joy)... but both of us dont do it ... I dont know why..... for me I can't comment on this for the time being because I cant make any decision for this issue ... so I'll just being an observer here.....
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snakelegs
09-26-2006, 06:53 AM
i saw this article a while back. don't know how to judge its accuracy.
Malaysia's secular vision vs. 'writing on the wall'
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/28/news/letter.php
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north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 07:01 AM
Like my country.... I'm at a crossroads.....

I cant decide... I hope Malaysians and others can give their points regarding to this issue.... for the time being i still want to be an observer...
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starfortress
09-26-2006, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i saw this article a while back. don't know how to judge its accuracy.
Malaysia's secular vision vs. 'writing on the wall'
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/28/news/letter.php

Dont know how to judge the article due to lack of info,but some of the person whose got interviewed are well known for their criticising on Islam and frequently write about Liberalism mindset.Especially Farish Noor.

Under the current government Islam be able to breathe a fresh air,despite our society being turbulence by apostasy issue.Unlike Dr.M,Pak Lah are more softspoken.Being a habit he gonna take much time to answer a question or accusing on him.And because of that there are many people could take an advantage on him.Fortunately we still considered his ruling style as Islamic friendly.
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north_malaysian
09-26-2006, 08:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by starfortress
Dont know how to judge the article due to lack of info,but some of the person whose got interviewed are well known for their criticising on Islam and frequently write about Liberalism mindset.Especially Farish Noor.

Under the current government Islam be able to breathe a fresh air,despite our society being turbulence by apostasy issue.Unlike Dr.M,Pak Lah are more softspoken.Being a habit he gonna take much time to answer a question or accusing on him.And because of that there are many people could take an advantage on him.Fortunately we still considered his ruling style as Islamic friendly.
* Farish Noor - Is he the fella saying that Rayhana was Prophet Muhammad's mistress?

* Pak Lah - UNFORTUNATELY his daughter is one of Sisters in Islam's patron...

* UNTIL NOW - I dont see what ISLAM HADHARI effects on our nation...

P/S: Sorry if I offended u for saying bad things about Pak Lah.... coz I'm supporter of ANWAR IBRAHIM.
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starfortress
09-26-2006, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
* Farish Noor - Is he the fella saying that Rayhana was Prophet Muhammad's mistress?

* Pak Lah - UNFORTUNATELY his daughter is one of Sisters in Islam's patron...

* UNTIL NOW - I dont see what ISLAM HADHARI effects on our nation...

P/S: Sorry if I offended u for saying bad things about Pak Lah.... coz I'm supporter of ANWAR IBRAHIM.
I never said i am support for Pak Lah,you not offend me at all,and all my family are PAS supporter including me.I don't want to being rush make a conclusion in simple quoting.There lot more to tell,but it depend on other peoples view.Yes we dont get a result as what we wish from him maybe the problem are from his predecessor legacy.Its a fate for the minority to accept any decision from majority.
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syilla
09-26-2006, 01:51 PM
have you read the interview in bm...the thread that i made :D...

its mentioned about SIS....it says that most of the member of SIS doesn't really know what is SIS doing... same with the IFC....
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Zulkiflim
09-26-2006, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo
So in other words you filled her head with nonsense to keep her from converting. Nice

Salaam,

In what way is asking question nonsense?

Is the question not pertinent?

Muslim womena dn men observe decency in manner and clothing...all who claim to be muslim must do this.

Where as in the church only nuns and monks are supposed to cover themselves?
So why do they do that when other chrsitian need not ?

In Islam,all muslim are to worship Allah five times a day?
Nuns and Monks pray more than that ..
But everyday chrsitian only need only come to church on Sun..

So why do they do that when other chrsitian need not ?


I guess these question struck a chord in you..Inshallah.i hope intime it will resound deeper and awaken you to your own mockery..Inshallah
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Zulkiflim
09-26-2006, 03:39 PM
Salaam,

I think the woman should go for counselling.

Let her realise her love for a man has blinded her to her duties as a creation of Allah.
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Zulkiflim
09-26-2006, 03:44 PM
Salaam,

this is very interesting..

[PIE]Traditional treatment of apostates according to Shari'a law::

Islam teaches that a newborn has an innate ability to know and believe in his creator, and to understand good and evil. Muhammad (pbuh) stated: "Every child is born with the believing nature...it is his parents who make him into a Jew or a Christian." There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam. The Qur'ãn, quoted above, prohibits the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam.

However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change." 4 The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God." The Qur'ãn says that: "No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allãh and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36) On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate." 4 Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

In many predominately Muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death.

Assuming that the individual: Was a Muslim
Openly rejects Islam,
Has made this decision freely and without coercion,
Is aware of the nature of his/her statements, and
Is an adult. then the penalty prescribed by Shari'a (Islamic) law is execution for men and life imprisonment for women. Drunkards and mentally ill persons are excluded from this punishment because they are considered to be not responsible for their statements.


A person born of a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam is called a "Murtad Fitri" (Apostate - natural). This is viewed a treason against God. They are given a second chance. If they repent of their decision, they will be released. A person who converted to Islam and later rejected the religion is a "Murtad Milli" (apostate - from the community.) This is viewed as treason against the community. Male apostates are executed even if they repent. Female apostates are released from imprisonment if they repent.

Additional factors: If either spouse apostatize from Islam, a divorce is automatic.
If both apostatize they are generally allowed to stay married.
An under-aged male is imprisoned, and only executed if he remains an apostate when he becomes of age.
The will of a male apostate is not valid.
A female apostate's will remains valid.
In the rare instances when an apostate is executed, it is traditionally done by severing his neck with a sword.
Among Malikites, Shafi'ites, and Hanbalites, adult women receive the same penalty as men: execution.
The Shi'ite schools of law allow for Islamic law towards apostates to be applied in non-Muslim countries. The majority "Sunnites do not believe in extraterritorial jurisdiction." 4




Justification for the death penalty is mainly based on two Hadith texts: "Whoever changes his religion shall be killed." (Abu Dawud)
"It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam....." (Abu Dawud).



Arguments against the death penalty for apostates:

This is an alternative belief heard increasingly within Islam: that religious freedom and the absence of compulsion in religion requires that individuals be allowed adopt a religion or to convert to another religion without legal penalty. Of course, whether a person who leaves Islam can be expected to be free of condemnation from their family and neighbors is a different matter.

One group promoting this belief is Sisters in Islam (SIS), "a group of Muslim professional women committed to promoting the rights of women within the framework of Islam." 5 They claim that the death penalty is not an appropriate response to apostasy: The former Chief Justice of Pakistan, SA Rahman, has written that there is no reference to the death penalty in any of the 20 instances of apostasy mentioned in the Qur'an. 6
The quotation from Surah An-Nisa', 4:137, shown at the top of this essay, seems to imply that multiple, sequential apostasies are possible. That would not be possible if the person were executed after the first apostasy.
Muslims who support the death penalty for apostasy often base their belief partly on a hadith in which he said: "Kill whoever changes his religion." But this is a weak foundation because: This hadith was only transmitted from Muhammad (pbuh) by one individual. It was not confirmed by a second person.

According to Islamic law, this is insufficient basis on which to impose the death penalty.

The hadith is so generally worded that it would require the death penalty for a Christian or Jew who converted to Islam. This is obviously not the prophet's intent. The hadith is in need of further specification, which has not been documented.
Many scholars interpret this passage as referring only to instances of high treason. (e.g. declaring war on Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), God, etc.)

There is no historical record which indicates that Muhammad (pbuh) or any of his companions ever sentenced anyone to death for apostasy.

A number of Islamic scholars from past centuries, Ibrahim al-Naka'I, Sufyan al-Thawri, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi, Abul Walid al-Baji and Ibn Taymiyyah, have all held that apostasy is a serious sin, but not one that requires the death penalty. In modern times, Mahmud Shaltut, Sheikh of al-Azhar, and Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi have concurred.


Dr. Maher Hathout, author of "In Pursuit of Justice: The Jurisprudence of Human Rights in Islam," writes:


"We strongly oppose the state's use of coercion in regulating Islamic belief in such a manner, since faith is a matter of individual choice on which only God can adjudicate."

Referring to the two hadiths traditionally used to justify the death penalty, Hathout writes:

"...both of them contradict the Quran and other instances in which the Prophet did not compel anyone to embrace Islam, nor punish them if they recanted."

"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 13,14[/PIE]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos.htm

Anohter good read is

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

More to read at google..
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north_malaysian
09-27-2006, 03:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

I think the woman should go for counselling.

Let her realise her love for a man has blinded her to her duties as a creation of Allah.
It's been a very long time...... plus she's hiding in Sarawak...
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KAding
09-27-2006, 08:34 AM
Good luck to her. I hope she is allowed to seek her own path to salvation and happiness. That she will not be forced by the state to be a Muslim while her heart does not believe.
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scentsofjannah
09-27-2006, 01:52 PM
:sl:

She has chosen a different path..and we as muslims cannot force someone to remain a muslim against their will..Allah says in the Qur'an let there be no compulsion/coersion.May Allah guide her back to Islam ameen.

:w:
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scentsofjannah
09-27-2006, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
According to the Christian belief, God loves everyone equally. He doesn’t love one person more than another.

Perhaps a Muslim can tell us about the Muslim belief in the matter of God’s love.
Wow an athiest is such an expert on christianity :D ..well if God loves everyone equally..then why is there a HELL in christianity? why will some people be punished for the wrongs they do?..Allah tells us in the Qur'an He DOESNT LOVE the murderers, that he DOESNT LOVE those who mistreat the orphans, the poor the downtrodden, Allah tells us he doesnt LOVE corruption, dealing in interest, gambling, and injustice of ALL KINDS etc.

my friend HATE IS NOT always a negative thing..we have to hate oppression, injustice etc..noway around it.Allah doesnt treat the good and bad alike..in todays societies most good and bad arent treated alike..how can you expect GOD the Almighty THE JUST..to act in a totally different way?
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Joe98
09-28-2006, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah
....well if God loves everyone equally..then why is there a HELL in christianity?

In the Christian belief, God is all loving. And he is forgiving. In the Christian belief, on the day of judgement, God might choose to send a murdurer to paradise.

The sins of the murdurer were paid for when the nails went through Jesus's hands on the cross.

In the Christian belief it's God's choice, not yours.
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Woodrow
09-29-2006, 09:57 AM
This much of your statement I can agree with.

In the Christian belief it's God's choice, not yours.
__________________
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Durrah
09-29-2006, 02:59 PM
:sl:

Well look on the bright side, thousands more in Malaysia are becoming muslims, especially from the chinese malay community. You loose one sister and gain 20 others! Theres proabably more reverting to islam then leaving it. I think for many of the young people that do leave islam these days, often its because they've exprienced a twisted pervision of true islam. Theres alot of cultural hogwash that often exists in familes which are not based on any islamic principles but often potrayed that way by family and the children then rebel as adults.
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scentsofjannah
09-30-2006, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98

The sins of the murdurer were paid for when the nails went through Jesus's hands on the cross.
You see THATS where we differ..in Islam we believe that 'No bearer of burdens bears the burdens of another'..everyone will carry their own rubbish. Whatever good we do we will be rewarded for it ..whatever evil we do we will be held accountable for it..God is as always The Merciful..he may choose to forgive the small sins and shortcomings..and if someone is guilty of the major sins and they repent sincerely they will be forgiven.
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duskiness
09-30-2006, 10:12 PM
I'm probably stupid but why can she have her true faith in her ID?? What's the aim of forcing her to have false information there???
well if God loves everyone equally..then why is there a HELL in christianity? why will some people be punished for the wrongs they do?
because we are free to reject Him. btw: there are some theologists who say that hell will be empty...
..Allah tells us in the Qur'an He DOESNT LOVE the murderers, that he DOESNT LOVE those who mistreat the orphans, the poor the downtrodden,
we believe He loves them
Allah tells us he doesnt LOVE corruption, dealing in interest, gambling, and injustice of ALL KINDS etc.
here we agree. Christian statement can be sum up as: God "loves sinner, hates sin"
how can you expect GOD the Almighty THE JUST..to act in a totally different way?
because He is LOVE. and He is totally different :D
n.
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north_malaysian
10-02-2006, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Durrah
:sl:

Well look on the bright side, thousands more in Malaysia are becoming muslims, especially from the chinese malay community. You loose one sister and gain 20 others! Theres proabably more reverting to islam then leaving it. I think for many of the young people that do leave islam these days, often its because they've exprienced a twisted pervision of true islam. Theres alot of cultural hogwash that often exists in familes which are not based on any islamic principles but often potrayed that way by family and the children then rebel as adults.
Agreed...
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north_malaysian
10-02-2006, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
I'm probably stupid but why can she have her true faith in her ID?? What's the aim of forcing her to have false information there???.
Muslims who decide leaving Islam should have declara+ion from Shariah Cour+.

Bu+ Lina didn+ have i+ - so hard for her +o ob+ain her new religion s+a+ed in her ID card.
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