What would happen if the US pulled out of Iraq today ?

[Agnostic]

I was just wondering what the effects would be if the US pulled out now.
I never thought the war on Iraq was legal or a good idea, in fact I new what we were getting into as I went through the Vietnam war and saw the out come when it was over.
This is not a hostile question I'm just confused by my county's mission statement that is so broad I cant follow it anymore.
All input would be appreciated

Peace Please

[Woodrow]

My own opinion is nobody knows what would happen if we just pull out. The country could become another Darfur or it could settle into a true self rule. Personaly I think our best bet is for us to get out. Than offer rebuilding costs to whatever power gains control.

Learn our lesson and stop poking our noses into the affairs of other nations.

[Keltoi]

The problem is a no win situation. If the U.S. stays they will continue to be held responsible for the violence there. If the U.S. leaves they will be held responsible for leaving Iraq in such a state. There is no easy way out now. It is up to the Iraqi people themselves at this point.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

My best bet would be peace..

The US forces should also take every puppet that they own to make another gov in exile for use in later years when Iraqis start doing concerted effort to block Israel and to defend itself from any attack form the US and Israel.

The porblem is that western media have been down playing the Iraqis for all it is worth and i see that many muslim have fallen into that trap.

As polls have shown all Iraqis agree that the US presence is the casue for conflict.

Will they heed the Iraqis or what they think the Iraqis are capable of?

The US already entered Iraqs cosidering themselves saviour ,considering the Iraqis as worse than dogs,,,needing to be led and disciplined.

this mentality has casued much suffering but as alawys ,in any US ignited conflict,the US is never at fault...

But i do hope that no sane americna will ever ask again,,,,WHY DO THEY HATE US...

If you still cant asnwer the question then trully you are not the solution..

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[Skillganon]

The problem is a no win situation. If the U.S. stays they will continue to be held responsible for the violence there. If the U.S. leaves they will be held responsible for leaving Iraq in such a state. There is no easy way out now. It is up to the Iraqi people themselves at this point.

Of course they are responsible, because they are responsible for Terrorism i.e. (Invasion of Iraq) and responsible for turning the whole country into anarchy, deliberately.

Now best bet is to take advice of the Majority of the people and get lost.

[Keltoi]

Of course they are responsible, because they are responsible for Terrorism i.e. (Invasion of Iraq) and responsible for turning the whole country into anarchy, deliberately.

Now best bet is to take advice of the Majority of the people and get lost.

That is easy to say from good ole London isn't it? As for the charge that the U.S. is deliberately turning the country to anarchy, that isn't really worth a response.

[Joe98]

The real question is:

If the US goes home, will the Iraqi people stop killing each other?

In the responses above people have avoided this issue.

[Keltoi]

The real question is:

If the US goes home, will the Iraqi people stop killing each other?

In the responses above people have avoided this issue.

It seems that people killing each other isn't a big deal unless Americans are involved.

[north_malaysian]

Maybe US should leave and call in armies from OIC members to stabilize Iraq...

[Keltoi]

Maybe US should leave and call in armies from OIC members to stabilize Iraq...

If the American military can't stop secterian violence, I don't see how OIC members would have more luck. If any of those doing the killing in Iraq right now wanted to fight Americans they are there and not hard to find. Instead, U.S. forces have stopped being the target. Iraqis are killing Iraqis in extremely large numbers, and in disgusting ways. However, from a personal standpoint, I say get the U.S. troops out of Iraq and let the OIC members have a go...see how long that lasts.

[north_malaysian]

If the American military can't stop secterian violence, I don't see how OIC members would have more luck. If any of those doing the killing in Iraq right now wanted to fight Americans they are there and not hard to find. Instead, U.S. forces have stopped being the target. Iraqis are killing Iraqis in extremely large numbers, and in disgusting ways. However, from a personal standpoint, I say get the U.S. troops out of Iraq and let the OIC members have a go...see how long that lasts.

At least.... Iranians can calm down the Shiites and Pakistanis can do the same to Sunnis.... BUT still it's upon Iraqis to decide.... Maybe we should divide IRaq into 3 countries....

[Zulkiflim]

The real question is:

If the US goes home, will the Iraqi people stop killing each other?

In the responses above people have avoided this issue.

Salaam,

Actually no the response have been very clear from the Iraqis,it is the US whom have been ignoring them and the polls.

If the US leave,the war will end.

The destruction will end.

But do the US want to belive that peace can come wihout their aid?
NO,they wish to be the saviour.
Do they wish to leave Iraq now and have another nation hate them?
No
But again do they recognise they are the problem?

So inshort this war will not end ,and in another coutnry another generation,Iraqis will despise US,as many muslim and non-muslim coutnries already do.


Will the US leave and say sorry and pay for all damages?
No

For any Iraqis dead are collateral damage.
Spoken from the administration.

[Zulkiflim]

If the American military can't stop secterian violence, I don't see how OIC members would have more luck. If any of those doing the killing in Iraq right now wanted to fight Americans they are there and not hard to find. Instead, U.S. forces have stopped being the target. Iraqis are killing Iraqis in extremely large numbers, and in disgusting ways. However, from a personal standpoint, I say get the U.S. troops out of Iraq and let the OIC members have a go...see how long that lasts.

Salaam,

There it is again,the arrogance to think you cna solve wihout admission of guilt.

And you are right Iraqis are killing Iraqis in large number why?

simple,Both sides consider themselves as triators.

And you are wrong when you say that the US troops are no longer the target,they and all their feelers are the targets.

Any person will understand the anger and the desire to harm those whom have harmed you and your loved ones.
In a lawless coutnry,due to US invasion,such things will go on for there is no justice.

How many times have we seen US soldier or any adminsitration sent to justice for war crimes?
Abu Ghraib anyone?

None,the main thing is that the US want the license to kill wihout the responsibilities..
And thus again,,,that arrogance led to brother killing brother..

Inshallah,but mistake not the target will always be coalition forces especially US soldiers.

[Abdulwaheed]

THe US shouldnt have invaded in the first place. Im sure they have their own agenda and its definitely wasnt the 'war on terrorism' They saw a threat in Iraq that wasnt there.
They are starting a civil war and i dont know how they plan on ending this whole mess. Pulling out of iraq wont solve the problems, but its a start.

[Agnostic]

And you are right Iraqis are killing Iraqis in large number why?
simple,Both sides consider themselves as triators.

Not sure what you mean by this?

How many times have we seen US soldier or any adminsitration sent to justice for war crimes?
Abu Ghraib anyone?

There are several soldiers going on trial for crimes in Iraq now, what the results will be I'm not sure but some may face the death penalty.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12492642/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6658513/

My fear is that if the coalition force simply pull out there will be a huge power vacuum and civil war will follow, this has already been predicted by Iraqi's political and religious leaders.

[MTAFFI]

Salaam,

There it is again,the arrogance to think you cna solve wihout admission of guilt.

And you are right Iraqis are killing Iraqis in large number why?

simple,Both sides consider themselves as triators.

And you are wrong when you say that the US troops are no longer the target,they and all their feelers are the targets.

Any person will understand the anger and the desire to harm those whom have harmed you and your loved ones.
In a lawless coutnry,due to US invasion,such things will go on for there is no justice.

How many times have we seen US soldier or any adminsitration sent to justice for war crimes?
Abu Ghraib anyone?

None,the main thing is that the US want the license to kill wihout the responsibilities..
And thus again,,,that arrogance led to brother killing brother..

Inshallah,but mistake not the target will always be coalition forces especially US soldiers.

I have followed some of your responses and my opinion is that perhaps you have it backwards. America has said several times that it was a mistake to invade Iraq, and the majority of America would like to pull out according to polls.

Perhaps instead of blaming all of the violence on America you should blame it on the people of that region. America did not come in and try to take over, a ruthless leader was overthrown and a newer, better government was put into place. If the country would at least give this government a chance, instead of killing and constantly trying to overthrow it, they might see that.

As far as war crimes go what do you call all of the torture and murder commited by the people that are "fighting back"? Is that not a war crime? How are they being punished? It is these people that want the license to kill and the ability to rule a country by placing fear in the hearts of everyone who lives there. The fact that you think:
"the main thing is that the US want the license to kill wihout the responsibilities..
And thus again,,,that arrogance led to brother killing brother.." is the reason for "brother killing brother" is absolutely ridiculous. These people are not brothers there is ruthless extremist killing good people.

They are not fighting because Americans are there they are fighting because oil is there. They are fighting because the Sunnis no longer control all of the money and oil. They are fighting because they are sick and corrupted ignorant people, the same as those who back them.

[Curaezipirid]

If the US pulls out then any war is a more localised war by definition.
What business is it of the US if any Iraqi might happen to want to kill a person. If they can get into the US and kill US citizens then surely it is a boarder patrolling issue.
Peace keeping forces are a misnomer. No Peace is kept by the gun.

I was reading a set of News articles from America earlier this evening and I might start up a thread in which any interested persons can look at some of them which exemplify the "alternative to mainstream" US popular opinion. I find the articles very negative because the Peace movement in the US seems very disillusioned about the general population's opinions about a US military force in the Middle East. The Peace movement seems quite despairing sadly.

So here could I question only why is it that all citizens of the US are not already regarding that it is imperative for US military presence to withdraw from the Middle East? What good can they do there?

Can it be that many US citizens support George Bush because he is such an outspoken Christian? Is that why US citizens are believing in any beneficience from such a miliatary presence? There is a thread somewhere in which George Bush is reported to have said that before now God told him to send troops into the Middle East, but now God is telling him to withdraw troops from the Middle East. If he has really said that and if much of his support is based in Christian faith, then surely he is already heralding a withdrawal of troops and we can all sigh in relief.

wasalam

[north_malaysian]

They are not fighting because Americans are there they are fighting because oil is there. They are fighting because the Sunnis no longer control all of the money and oil. They are fighting because they are sick and corrupted ignorant people, the same as those who back them.

Maybe we should see what would happen when US outt of Iraq. If they still killing each others. Then we know why they did that.

[snakelegs]

Curaezipirid,
i don't know whether bush is a christian or not, but it seems very clear that he is using the religion to achieve political goals - just as some muslims do and people have probably done forever.
as for the original post - i have no idea what would happen - but the end of this civil war seems no where near coming to an end any time soon.
i would like to see the u.s. apologize for starting this war on false pretenses, ask for some kind of help in the transition - maybe just from muslim nations? - and get out. our continued presence there is obviously not helping anything.
then i think the u.s. should pay reparations and that no contracts be given to u.s. corporations for the rebuilding. they have gotten richer enough, first by destroying and then by rebuilding.
if we spent even a fraction of the sums we are spending every month - it would probably be more than adequate to do a good job of it.
i know - i'm dreaming!
i think the u.s. bears responsibilty for bringing about the situation that has led to anarchy and should atone for unleashing the monster.
yeah i know - i'm dreaming!

[north_malaysian]

i would like to see the u.s. apologize for starting this war on false pretenses, ask for some kind of help in the transition - maybe just from muslim nations? - and get out. !

Good points

[sameer]

[QUOTE=Agnostic;501711]Not sure what you mean by this?



There are several soldiers going on trial for crimes in Iraq now, what the results will be I'm not sure but some may face the death penalty.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12492642/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6658513/ [quote]


Those soldiers are being tried in American courts and not the international court for war criminals.
------------------------------------

I dont think the US can and would pull out of Iraq at this moment, because the world would blame them for lying and bringing a country to anarchy and is now pulling out and leaving them. From a US standpoint it make more sense to stay in Iraq.


I dont know if the violence in Iraq would stop if they do pull out. The factions are warring, but then again the powers that be could be usiing divide and conquer tactics and inciting violence. Also it seems that anyone who helps the US army/invaders are being seen as the enemy, so if the US inst there, then their informers/helpers/wokers may not be vitimized anymore.

U may ask y are they considered to be the enemy if they are helping the US, well obiviously if u are helping an invader in anycountry u would be seen as a traitor and a treat. When there is a mutiny on a ship....all conspiritors and helpers are held accountable, when someone is tried for treason, inst any aide to the person also held accountable? When bin labin was balmed for 9-11, wasnt the Taliban being held accountable for helping him, If the school bully is beating u up in school and ure friends come along and helps him to beat u up...how would u look at ure friend after?
So its easy to see how the freedom fighters may view the act of the US helpers as the enemy.

However i dont condone the blowing up of children and them being viewed as the enemy.

[Muezzin]

If the US were to leave, there'd be no news about certain American soldiers going nuts and massacring Iraqi civilians, but the sectarian violence would continue in the wake of Saddam's fall from power, probably for a long time, until the Iraqi authorities could gain some sort of control over the situation.

The cynic in me says such violence would be part of a vicious cycle which may well just lead to another dictatorship.

[Skillganon]

Well, that's what they are supporting if they can get away with it.

It is funny how the apparent sectarian violence has blown up after the invasion of the U.S.

I remember at school day's, some people use to egg on a boy to start on the other. So they can milk off from the situation.

[Keltoi]

Well, that's what they are supporting if they can get away with it.

It is funny how the apparent sectarian violence has blown up after the invasion of the U.S.

I remember at school day's, some people use to egg on a boy to start on the other. So they can milk off from the situation.

How is it "funny" that sectarian violence has blow up now? The three major groups inside Iraq have never been particulary friendly to the other, and a dictatorship was the only thing keeping them together. The U.S. didn't fully appreciate the ethnic divides inside Iraq(among many other things)that will disrupt any chance at a unity government. This conspiracy theory that the U.S. wants sectarian violence blindly ignores the American political reality. The best thing that could happen from the U.S. standpoint is a unified government with relative peace in the country. That way the U.S. could feel justified in its actions and return the military to more vital missions, one of which is Afghanistan.

[wilberhum]

Well, that's what they are supporting if they can get away with it.

Please tell us what’s the advantage of the sectarian valance to the US.

It has brought world wide humiliation to the US. We have lost credibility in much of the world. Supporters of the war are suffering in the polls. American lives are being lost and we are spending billions of dollars. So please tell us what is the advantage.

[Ninth_Scribe]

My own opinion is nobody knows what would happen if we just pull out. The country could become another Darfur or it could settle into a true self rule. Personaly I think our best bet is for us to get out. Than offer rebuilding costs to whatever power gains control.

Learn our lesson and stop poking our noses into the affairs of other nations.

The dispute would continue, but it would only involve the people of Iraq and it's their business anyway. However which way they work it out, we owe them reconstruction aid and we need to mind our own business.

Ninth Scribe

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

The problem is a no win situation. If the U.S. stays they will continue to be held responsible for the violence there. If the U.S. leaves they will be held responsible for leaving Iraq in such a state. There is no easy way out now.

Irony is, it was considerably easy for the US to get involved in the first place.

It is up to the Iraqi people themselves at this point.

Just like it was up to the Iraqi people in the first place seeing as it was an Iraqi problem in Iraq. Intriguing, isn't it...

If US troops moved out all that would happen is less american soldiers would die in Iraq; the country is on the brink of civil war you know. An invasion kind of has that effect on a country.

[akulion]

i think there would be a brief struggle for power

until eventually one party would take control

[Keltoi]

:sl:

Irony is, it was considerably easy for the US to get involved in the first place.


Just like it was up to the Iraqi people in the first place seeing as it was an Iraqi problem in Iraq. Intriguing, isn't it...

If US troops moved out all that would happen is less american soldiers would die in Iraq; the country is on the brink of civil war you know. An invasion kind of has that effect on a country.

The problem was that the administration, rightly or wrongly, felt that Iraq wasn't just an "Iraqi problem". In hindsight, which is always easy, it would have been better for everyone involved if the Iraq War had never happened, but blaming the U.S., which there is plenty to blame us for, doesn't mean the Iraqi people have no role to play.

[*Hana*]

The problem was that the administration, rightly or wrongly, felt that Iraq wasn't just an "Iraqi problem". In hindsight, which is always easy, it would have been better for everyone involved if the Iraq War had never happened, but blaming the U.S., which there is plenty to blame us for, doesn't mean the Iraqi people have no role to play.

Are you kidding me???? Hindsight?? It's NOT hindsight at all! Bush KNEW he was lying BEFORE illegally invading. He lied to world leaders, he lied to the American people and he is STILL lying.

First he tried to blame Saddam for 9/11, when that blew up in his face, he falsely accused him of having WMD and used that as a reason to illegally invade, KNOWING there were NONE!! When that too blew up in his face he changed his purpose to "The war on terror". It didn't matter that there was NO connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq.....just change the words and "justify" the war!! Then he brags he rid Iraq of a dictator....what he neglects to mention is that the USA PUT HIM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE and stood by while he committed acts of genocide on his own people and used chemical weapons on them as well as Iranians!! And supported him in that endeavor!!!

Now what does he do??? He tries to place fear in the minds of the American people by constantly using the words "terrorists", "protecting Americans from terrorists", "evil doers", etc. It doesn't matter if there is any validity to these words....as long as it somehow justifies the illegal invasion and killing of innocent people.

The atrocities done to the Iraqi civilians at the hands of Americans, is "collateral damage" UNLESS someone manages to take pictures of them in the act...THEN it's a crime!! How many such acts have been committed when no cameras were around???!!!! Ever take 2 seconds to wonder why Bush wants to change the Geneva Convention's War Crimes Act?? He KNOWS he and other officials could be prosecuted for the treatment of detainees and he wants immunity.

The American government promised the Iraqi people to rid them of Saddam in the Gulf War of '91 IF they helped them and supported the troops. The USA turned their backs on them and left them to be victims of a man they KNEW was more than willing and capable of killing his own people. And you wonder WHY Iraqis don't trust the USA??

You can't figure out how the USA would benefit from a civil war in Iraq???? One reason is that if there is civil war with sunni and shi'a Muslims being focused on each other....they're not focusing on American soldiers or the puppet government being placed by the American government. Blame the Iraqis for what's happening in that country and take the eyes of the world off the USA!! There are a million reasons why civil war would benefit the USA....you just have to take the blinders off and look at it!!

Of all the lies Bush has told and still you try to justify his actions!!! Innocent American boys are dying in Iraq and for what???? If ou justify his actions, then you justify the deaths of every soldier sent there based on those lies. Before you blame the Iraqi people for the living Hell in their country...go talk to the mother, wife or child who lost a son/daughter, husband or father because of the lies fed to the American people on a daily basis.

The illegal invasion was the result of many things, one of which was NOT hindsight!!!!

You want to support your troops that are dying for nothing and who are also victims of your government, then support them....but don't come here and try to justify and support what Bush has done and tell us it's "freedom" and "democracy".

Gimme a break!!!

Uffff, I can't discuss this stuff when the lies have been broadcast world wide and still there are those that applaud the terrorist actions of Bush and his little entourage of cowards in a pathetic attempt to justify it and then whine and blame the Iraqi people for not dropping on the ground and kissing their feet in gratitude and wanting them out. :grumbling

Who knows what would happen in Iraq if the USA left, but one thing is for sure...they're not doing Iraq or the Middle East any favours by staying!!!

That's my rant. :rant:

Hana

[Abdulwaheed]

Are you kidding me???? Hindsight?? It's NOT hindsight at all! Bush KNEW he was lying BEFORE illegally invading. He lied to world leaders, he lied to the American people and he is STILL lying.

First he tried to blame Saddam for 9/11, when that blew up in his face, he falsely accused him of having WMD and used that as a reason to illegally invade, KNOWING there were NONE!! When that too blew up in his face he changed his purpose to "The war on terror". It didn't matter that there was NO connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq.....just change the words and "justify" the war!! Then he brags he rid Iraq of a dictator....what he neglects to mention is that the USA PUT HIM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE and stood by while he committed acts of genocide on his own people and used chemical weapons on them as well as Iranians!! And supported him in that endeavor!!!

Now what does he do??? He tries to place fear in the minds of the American people by constantly using the words "terrorists", "protecting Americans from terrorists", "evil doers", etc. It doesn't matter if there is any validity to these words....as long as it somehow justifies the illegal invasion and killing of innocent people.

The atrocities done to the Iraqi civilians at the hands of Americans, is "collateral damage" UNLESS someone manages to take pictures of them in the act...THEN it's a crime!! How many such acts have been committed when no cameras were around???!!!! Ever take 2 seconds to wonder why Bush wants to change the Geneva Convention's War Crimes Act?? He KNOWS he and other officials could be prosecuted for the treatment of detainees and he wants immunity.

The American government promised the Iraqi people to rid them of Saddam in the Gulf War of '91 IF they helped them and supported the troops. The USA turned their backs on them and left them to be victims of a man they KNEW was more than willing and capable of killing his own people. And you wonder WHY Iraqis don't trust the USA??

You can't figure out how the USA would benefit from a civil war in Iraq???? One reason is that if there is civil war with sunni and shi'a Muslims being focused on each other....they're not focusing on American soldiers or the puppet government being placed by the American government. Blame the Iraqis for what's happening in that country and take the eyes of the world off the USA!! There are a million reasons why civil war would benefit the USA....you just have to take the blinders off and look at it!!

Of all the lies Bush has told and still you try to justify his actions!!! Innocent American boys are dying in Iraq and for what???? If ou justify his actions, then you justify the deaths of every soldier sent there based on those lies. Before you blame the Iraqi people for the living Hell in their country...go talk to the mother, wife or child who lost a son/daughter, husband or father because of the lies fed to the American people on a daily basis.

The illegal invasion was the result of many things, one of which was NOT hindsight!!!!

You want to support your troops that are dying for nothing and who are also victims of your government, then support them....but don't come here and try to justify and support what Bush has done and tell us it's "freedom" and "democracy".

Gimme a break!!!

Uffff, I can't discuss this stuff when the lies have been broadcast world wide and still there are those that applaud the terrorist actions of Bush and his little entourage of cowards in a pathetic attempt to justify it and then whine and blame the Iraqi people for not dropping on the ground and kissing their feet in gratitude and wanting them out. :grumbling

Who knows what would happen in Iraq if the USA left, but one thing is for sure...they're not doing Iraq or the Middle East any favours by staying!!!

That's my rant. :rant:

Hana

WOw!! What a Rant! You had a lot of good points though :) I believe the blame lies on America for Invading in the first place and lying through the teeth to justify it. Like i said before, I wonder if the true reason for the invasion will ever come out :?

[Woodrow]

WOw!! What a Rant! You had a lot of good points though :) I believe the blame lies on America for Invading in the first place and lying through the teeth to justify it. Like i said before, I wonder if the true reason for the invasion will ever come out :?

Albert Einstein is credited with saying "If something has several explanations, the simplist one is most likely the true one."

In my opinion these are the simplist explanations.

Aghanistan started because of 9/11. You have to remember that Americans are not used to war taking place on American soil. We were lolled into a false sense of security and never expected that American soil was vulnerable. the reaction was based on fear and disbelief. True it was the wrong conclusion, but that was the reason. Sorry, no conspiracy, no attempt to control foreign oil sources.

The simplist explanation of Iraq was rumors stating that Iraq had WMD and was planning to use them against the USA. this was aggrevated with Saddam's boasts during the first Gulf war when he bragged that he had wepons that would bring the western world to it's knees. The simple fact is we believed Saddam and feared him.

[Abdulwaheed]

THose are pretty simple REasons. Perhaps thats the truth!

But i would have thought that the US would be able to send spies into Iraq to be able to determine if Saddam really is a threat. But maybe 9/11 did make them paranoid beyond the realm of rational thought :?
Well they have Saddam now and and even bigger problem on their hands. It will be interesting to see how the US gets out of this.

[*Hana*]

Albert Einstein is credited with saying "If something has several explanations, the simplist one is most likely the true one."

In my opinion these are the simplist explanations.

Aghanistan started because of 9/11. You have to remember that Americans are not used to war taking place on American soil. We were lolled into a false sense of security and never expected that American soil was vulnerable. the reaction was based on fear and disbelief. True it was the wrong conclusion, but that was the reason. Sorry, no conspiracy, no attempt to control foreign oil sources.

The simplist explanation of Iraq was rumors stating that Iraq had WMD and was planning to use them against the USA. this was aggrevated with Saddam's boasts during the first Gulf war when he bragged that he had wepons that would bring the western world to it's knees. The simple fact is we believed Saddam and feared him.

Salam Alaikum Brother:

Actually, the USA planned on being at war with Afghanistan prior to 9/11. They were determined to topple the Taliban and told other governments they would do that around October, 2001. They got real "lucky" that at the very time they were planning their attack...9/11 happened, and now they could "justify" a war in that country.

"To be truthful about it, there was no way we could have got the public consent to have suddenly launched a campaign on Afghanistan but for what happened on September 11."
Tony Blair. July 17, 2002 [Guardian]

Also, the USA publicly claimed and were adament in early 2001, that Iraq posed NO threat and did NOT have WMD.

In Cairo, on February 24 2001, Powell said: "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours."

This is the very opposite of what Bush and Blair said in public.

Powell even boasted that it was the US policy of "containment" that had effectively disarmed the Iraqi dictator - again the very opposite of what Blair said time and again. On May 15 2001, Powell went further and said that Saddam Hussein had not been able to "build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction" for "the last 10 years". America, he said, had been successful in keeping him "in a box".

Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. "Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."

The USA flatly denied Saddam was a threat and the world saw what little he had and the lies he told during the Gulf War.

Bush instilled false fear in the American people through lies to gain their approval for war. The pipeline and oil is VERY important to the American government and has been long before George W. The invasion was important enough that he continually changed his reasons for the illegal invasion as the lies were made public.

Even now with all his lies made public, the world knowing the invasion was illegal, Bush continues to bully and threaten other countries in the Middle East, while supporting Israel. A country that DID lie about producing nuclear weapons....but that's another story. lol

Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

[Zulkiflim]

Not sure what you mean by this?



There are several soldiers going on trial for crimes in Iraq now, what the results will be I'm not sure but some may face the death penalty.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12492642/
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6658513/

My fear is that if the coalition force simply pull out there will be a huge power vacuum and civil war will follow, this has already been predicted by Iraqi's political and religious leaders.

Salaam,

It is called the reactive attitude when poeple lose their loved ones they are overcome with anger and powerlessnes.

Peoplet ake different strides but for some forgiveness come hardly easy especially in the face of US arrogance to deny any wrong doing.

People who lose their loved one desire justice,revenge.
For SEP 11,the US have massacared more than 100 000 Iraqis under the pretext of Terrorism,of WMD,,tho no such exist.

And so they are angered when those whom are at fault are not held accountable.And they see those around them seeking employeemnt with these killers and murderer.

So Traitors...come to mind,and under any pretext of religon or race or caste,the revenge is exacted.

And thus it flow on and on till the cycle of death continues.
In darkness,the light cannot be seen,engulfed in remorse and hate,salvation is lost.

This leads to civil war.

No Justice,oppresion,powerlessness.

For the link you gave,do you know HOW LONG THE IRAQIS had to wait for this trial?
How long ago did it happen?

The Justice comes too late,and the notion that US blood is above cost,is undeniable.

Any US or coalition who have done the unspeakable,they should be arrested and tried under Iraqis law,not the US or any other coutnry.

Then can JUstice be said to be IN CONTROL...

[Curaezipirid]

alaikum assalam

should we really be asking what will happen when the USA stops using their economic might to value some Muslims higher than others depending only upon who will support profits

mu'asalam

[Ninth_Scribe]

The problem was that the administration, rightly or wrongly, felt that Iraq wasn't just an "Iraqi problem". In hindsight, which is always easy, it would have been better for everyone involved if the Iraq War had never happened, but blaming the U.S., which there is plenty to blame us for, doesn't mean the Iraqi people have no role to play.

Exactly. One of Zarqawi's bigger arguments rested on the fact that the U.S. had been manipulated toward Iraq by the receipt of bogus intelligence ~ and I've been looking into who supplied that bogus intelligence. This will take some time to publish, because I have to wait on the declassification process, but the invasion does appear to be an invited guest and not from the most trust-worthy in Iraq either.

Ninth Scribe

[*Hana*]

Exactly. One of Zarqawi's bigger arguments rested on the fact that the U.S. had been manipulated toward Iraq by the receipt of bogus intelligence ~ and I've been looking into who supplied that bogus intelligence. This will take some time to publish, because I have to wait on the declassification process, but the invasion does appear to be an invited guest and not from the most trust-worthy in Iraq either.

Ninth Scribe

It had nothing to do with bogus intelligence....if you read post #20, that already refuted that as a "justification", you would see the USA and Britain BOTH maintained Iraq had NO WMD and were NOT a threat to its own neighbours, let alone the USA, PRIOR to 9/11 and the eventual illegal invasion.

Instead of trying to justify what the majority of the world KNOWS was illegal, why don't you concentrate your efforts on the gross misconduct of Bush and company and be angry so many innocents are dying, including Americans in Iraq, because of his lies. If his decision to invade were justified why are some government officials screaming for impeachment of Bush, Chaney and Rumsfield?

Don't try to place the blame on others to try to justify what the US government did. If I were an American I would be FAR more angry with the lies and corruption going on in the whitehouse, and the fact that American soldiers are dying because of it. Because of his continued lack of concern for the American people he promised to protect, he's brought the anger of the world on them while he sits in his ivory tower completely protected from the wrath. Who ultimately pays the price? Right now, the impoverished people of Iraq, American soldiers and the citizens of the USA are paying.

Iraq had NO WMD, had nothing to do with 9/11 and absolutely NO link with Al Qaeda or OBL. All this was known by the American Government LONG before they illegally invaded. So, please tell me, what other excuse are you willing to come up with to justify this illegal invasion and occupation. What excuse will you come up with to justify the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens. What excuse will you come up with to justify the deaths of 2500 American Soldiers and the injury of 20,000 more? What excuse will you give as to why Muslims should not be angry and want to fight back?

Every time you see the face of another American soldier on the news while they report his death, ask yourself, "WHY?" "What did he die for?" "What was so threatening to America, that he had to give his life for it?" I promise you, if you're honest with yourself, you won't find an answer. You can't justify it. They are dying for nothing!!

The American people need to stand up and make Bush and others accountable for the mess they've created. Do you realize there are some government officials that want him tried for treason?? The penalty is death!! This from his own American government!!

The vast majority of Americans now know what Bush did and continues to do and want no part of it and they are now just as much a victim as the rest.

Ya'll need to start doing some serious and sincere searching to see the truth of the American Government. If I were an American citizen, I'd be far more terrified of what's in the whitehouse than anything else.

Hana

[Wahid]

What i think would happen if US pulled out:
a regional gov will emerge in the Sunni areas including Baghdad mostly containing the Mujahdeen or sympathetic politicians to them

Shia areas will be governed by sader and other popular shia parties and kurds will probably try to make their own state. now the shai parties and Mujahdeen might work something out to keep iraq together but i don’t think the kurds will be part of this

[Ninth_Scribe]

The American people need to stand up and make Bush and others accountable for the mess they've created. Do you realize there are some government officials that want him tried for treason?? The penalty is death!! This from his own American government!!

Hana

Yes, I happen to be one of them... and I'm not exactly helpless in that department but I need access to the WHOLE story (which includes the versions he used and who supplied him with same). In other words, Bush and his associates in Iraq... and don't think he didn't have them!

Ninth Scribe

[Curaezipirid]

me, I only get momentary hallucinations which I can never believe in; of George Bush in a stranger walking by; and more recently of his mind examining my own, but truly I am too well educated in the Aboriginal Dreamtime to be able to believe in any such matters without any physical evidence

wasalam

[Curaezipirid]

Actually now I should be more sensible in my answering of this thread. I believe that the repercussions to Americans pulling out of the middle east altogether will amount to a considerable amount of nerve wrecking fear among Australians because Australian organised crime has been wrongfully holding their opiate use as not their own sins, and as though they can successfully account such against Afganistan. I made a few posts at Islam: Global Message to inform the international Muslim community way back a few months ago, and there are already some obvious repercussions here.

In fact, it seems to have been Australian heroin selling having been sponsored by an influx of shaytan to Australia, that is the main part of causation to The Dajjal; but never forgetting that many Australians are already accepting that we might be accountible more than we realise so best to account for ourselves as at fault. Those of us connected with Indigenous traditions that is.

[Ninth_Scribe]

me, I only get momentary hallucinations which I can never believe in; of George Bush in a stranger walking by; and more recently of his mind examining my own, but truly I am too well educated in the Aboriginal Dreamtime to be able to believe in any such matters without any physical evidence

wasalam

Physical evidence is obtained by the responses you receive after you've engaged in such mental and spiritual dialogue. I personally have recorded quite a number of responses following my communiques with others. In fact, if I may be so bold, the effect or influence I have on this level of communication is much greater than that of any physical meeting I attend. In the physical sense, I am just a woman and am seen that way. On any given spiritual level, I am often mistaken for an angel. It gives me quite an advantage! If I were you, I wouldn't give up on this type of dialogue... just focus on one person and see if your able to effect any change. You'd be surprized, I think.

Ninth Scribe

[wilberhum]

Albert Einstein is credited with saying "If something has several explanations, the simplist one is most likely the true one."

In my opinion these are the simplist explanations.

Aghanistan started because of 9/11. You have to remember that Americans are not used to war taking place on American soil. We were lolled into a false sense of security and never expected that American soil was vulnerable. the reaction was based on fear and disbelief. True it was the wrong conclusion, but that was the reason. Sorry, no conspiracy, no attempt to control foreign oil sources.

The simplist explanation of Iraq was rumors stating that Iraq had WMD and was planning to use them against the USA. this was aggrevated with Saddam's boasts during the first Gulf war when he bragged that he had wepons that would bring the western world to it's knees. The simple fact is we believed Saddam and feared him.

I think the simplist explinations are accurate. As in all complex things, there are multiple factors, but the major reasons are easy to see. But most will not accept them, they are too simple.

[Torquemada]

Exactly. One of Zarqawi's bigger arguments rested on the fact that the U.S. had been manipulated toward Iraq by the receipt of bogus intelligence ~ and I've been looking into who supplied that bogus intelligence. This will take some time to publish, because I have to wait on the declassification process, but the invasion does appear to be an invited guest and not from the most trust-worthy in Iraq either.

Ninth Scribe

Funny thing is The whole UN thought Saddam had WMD and this came from each countries own intelligence agencies. If they didn't then what was the point of resolution 1441? Even Saddams own generals admitted they thought they had them.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Funny thing is The whole UN thought Saddam had WMD and this came from each countries own intelligence agencies. If they didn't then what was the point of resolution 1441? Even Saddams own generals admitted they thought they had them.

As I said before: Bush and his associates in Iraq - and don't think he didn't have them! In short, the initial desire to topple the Iraqi government came from inside Iraq.

Ninth Scribe

[Torquemada]

As I said before: Bush and his associates in Iraq - and don't think he didn't have them! In short, the initial desire to topple the Iraqi government came from inside Iraq.

Ninth Scribe

Chalibi? He wasn't in Iraq and yes he suckered the US.

[Curaezipirid]

I don't know about that. Suckered is an oddly posed verb. But what Iraqis want in Iraqi Government is Iraqi business.

[Curaezipirid]

Assalamu Alaikum

I found a new portion of knowledge about what could happen.

Australian soldiers might not any longer be tortured by American military police by having their heads forced under water while being caused to mentally associate wrongfully with death; and only for having put down a gun and refused to keep fighting after being told to shoot through a baby to kill a father; and arrived back here with a morphine addiction from what is being made available to the soldiers. . . . well so the fellow told me, now being on a rapidly reducing dose of methadone and with a wife, a daughter, and a new baby.

There also might not be any more school shootings in America. Since any society that permits the ideology that war can bring peace encourages mental association with killing as a means to a positive result.

As least Muslim certainty in Jihad only associates actual enacted warfare with necessarily negative result.

Actually I suspect that the Americans are only jealous about why it is the Saudi Arabia and ka'ba, are regarded so centrally in the means of Islam. They want for Americans to be their own Imams. So why prevent?

Assalamu Alaikum