Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

Check this out..

[PIE]Muslim anger fear halts opera
POSTED: 6:37 p.m. EDT, September 27, 2006
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BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- A leading opera house called off a production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" that features the severed head of the Prophet Mohammed, setting off a furious debate Tuesday over Islam, freedom of speech and the role of art.

The furor is the latest in Europe over religious sensitivities -- following cartoons of the prophet first published in a Danish newspaper and recent remarks by Pope Benedict XVI decrying holy war.

Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, announced "with great regret" that she had decided to cancel the three year old production after state security officials warned it could provoke dangerous reactions in the current politically charged climate.

After its premiere in 2003, the production by Hans Neuenfels drew widespread criticism over a scene in which King Idomeneo presents the severed heads not only of the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, but also of Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha.

The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004.

Harms defended her decision, which she described as "weighing artistic freedom and freedom of a theater ... against the question of security for people's lives."

But the move immediately provoked strong reactions across Germany.

Outraged politicians called the decision to pull the production "crazy" and "a fatal signal" of caving into extremism. Response from Germany's Islamic community was mixed, with some praising the decision and others calling on Muslims to accept the role of provocation in art.

The leader of Germany's Islamic Council welcomed the move, saying a depiction of Mohammed with a severed head "could certainly offend Muslims."

But in an interview with German radio, Ali Kizilkaya added: "I think it is horrible that one has to be afraid ... That is not the right way to open dialogue."

The leader of Germany's Turkish community said it was time Muslims accepted freedom of expression in art.

"This is about art, not about politics," Kenan Kolat told Bavarian Radio. "We should not make art dependent on religion -- then we are back in the Middle Ages."

Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."

"I stand behind my production and will not change it," Neuenfels told the Berliner Morgenpost in its Tuesday edition.

The opera house's decision comes after the German-born pope infuriated Muslims by quoting the words of a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

Earlier this year, violent protests erupted across the Muslim world after a Danish newspaper published 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad. The caricatures were reprinted by dozens of newspapers and Web sites in Europe and elsewhere, often in the name of freedom of expression.

Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of Mohammed for fear it could lead to idolatry.

"We know the consequences of the conflict over the (Mohammed) caricatures," Deutsche Oper said in a statement. "We believe that needs to be taken very seriously and hope for your support."

Berlin security officials had warned Harms that staging the opera could "in its originally produced form .... pose an incalculable security risk to the public and employees."

But Germany's interior minister condemned the cancellation.

"That is crazy," said Wolfgang Schaeuble, the country's top security official, speaking to reporters in Washington, D.C. "This is unacceptable."

It is not only Muslims who have been offended by depictions of religion in art.

Last month Madonna sparked criticism from some Roman Catholics in Germany for a show that staged a mock crucifixion. Mel Gibson's 2004 movie, "The Passion of Christ" met with disapproval from some Catholics and some Jews. In 2004, a Birmingham, England, theater canceled its run of "Behzti" after a violent protest by members of the Sikh community.

Still, many in normally open and tolerant Berlin, which has become a home for cutting edge and often contentious artistic productions, cautioned against compromising on issues of freedom of speech and art.

"Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived on the offensive. Voluntary self-limitation gives those who fight against our values a confirmation in advance that we will not stand behind them," said Mayor Klaus Wowereit.

Bernd Neumann, the federal government's top cultural official, said that "problems cannot be solved by keeping silent."

"When the concern over possible protests leads to self-censorship, then the democratic culture of free speech becomes endangered."[/PIE]


Now from teh article it is clear that some muslim upholds the ban but as always some moderate muslim in germany as well as some here in this forum,will say allow this play to go on.

I guess many muslim are forgetting to hopnour Prophet Muhammad saw.
Is art an excuse?


The western argument
[PIE]"Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived on the offensive. Voluntary self-limitation gives those who fight against our values a confirmation in advance that we will not stand behind them," said Mayor Klaus Wowereit.[/PIE]

So they are fighitng for their values,i wonder does it include respect?
This is line with Iran challenge,post the pictures of the Holocaust caricatures,but they wont,are they then open,tolerant and free?

No they too limit themselves,but when it comes to mocking,they say it is ART.

[PIE]"When the concern over possible protests leads to self-censorship, then the democratic culture of free speech becomes endangered.[/PIE]

Would it be self censorship if you respect your neighbour?

[PIE]Turkish community said it was time Muslims accepted freedom of expression in art.[/PIE]


Do you need to be offensive to be enlightening?
I guess in western context yes..

Maybe that why they do the things they do,they talk and talk and want to be enlightened.
Do they need to be mocking and disruptive to LEARN.

[Muezzin]

In this case, the play was banned, so why the fuss?

[KAding]

In this case, the play was banned, so why the fuss?

The play was not banned. It was cancelled. If it would have been banned it would be an outrage.

It's still somewhat disgusting though. The idea that the threat of violence leads to an opera being cancelled. I think it was a bad decision by the managers, we are giving in to the threats like this.

[Muezzin]

The play was not banned. It was cancelled. If it would have been banned it would be an outrage.

My mistake. Though, really, same result, eh?

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[Keltoi]

The only difference between art that Christians find offensive and art Muslims find offensive is the threat of violence. If Christian groups are offended by something, that something will happen anyway, because Christians normally do not resort to violence in those situations. Respect for religions are important, but in a secular society if you don't like the opera, then don't buy a ticket. It is ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on egg shells for fear of violence.

[wilberhum]

The only difference between art that Christians find offensive and art Muslims find offensive is the threat of violence. If Christian groups are offended by something, that something will happen anyway, because Christians normally do not resort to violence in those situations. Respect for religions are important, but in a secular society if you don't like the opera, then don't buy a ticket. It is ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on egg shells for fear of violence.

Well put. Respect and tolerance? Where?

[Fishman]

:sl:

Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."

This quote proves that the playwright is not just making art, but is actually showing his contempt for the Prophets (pbut) at the same time.
:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:

This quote proves that the playwright is not just making art, but is actually showing his contempt for the Prophets (pbut) at the same time.
:w:

Millions of plays have made a political or social statement.

[The Ruler]

:sl:

This is about art, not about politics," Kenan Kolat told Bavarian Radio. "We should not make art dependent on religion -- then we are back in the Middle Ages."

if thats the case then people will do anything and ad claim that it is art and not politics!...that statement was ridiculous! :heated:

:w:

[Fishman]

Millions of plays have made a political or social statement.

:sl:
But you can't say 'it's just art' if it's intended as an insult! Criticism is acceptable, insults are stupid and juvenile.
:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:
But you can't say 'it's just art' if it's intended as an insult! Criticism is acceptable, insults are stupid and juvenile.
:w:

What is "Just Art"?

Almost any political statement will insult someone.
Almost any religious statement will insult someone.
Almost any nationalistic statement will insult someone.
Almost any racial statement will insult someone.

If we eliminate everything that insults anyone, there will be nothing left.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861695679/art.html

ART - 1. creation of beautiful things: the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works, e.g. in painting, music, or writing

Notice “thought-provoking”. So maybe it is "Just Art".

[Fishman]

What is "Just Art"?

Almost any political statement will insult someone.
Almost any religious statement will insult someone.
Almost any nationalistic statement will insult someone.
Almost any racial statement will insult someone.

If we eliminate everything that insults anyone, there will be nothing left.

:sl:
There is a difference between making somebody feel insulted and actually using an insult. This is how I meant it:

to insult
to assault verbally; to be deliberately rude to

Wiktionary

This is how you took what I said:

insulting

containing insult, or having the intention of insulting
'He received an insulting letter. '

Wiktionary

url]http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861695679/art.html[/url]

Notice “thought-provoking”. So maybe it is "Just Art"

If some deranged person drew a picture of you and all your relatives naked, smeared in faeces and being burnt alive wouldn't you consider that an insult?

Besides, there are other ways to quietly criticise people's beliefs in plays without just insulting them.
:w:

[wilberhum]

If some deranged person drew a picture of you and all your relatives naked, smeared in faeces and being burnt alive wouldn't you consider that an insult?

Of course I would concider it an insult. But I wouldn’t kill him. His neighbors would need not fear because they lived on the same block as he did.

Besides, there are other ways to quietly criticise people's beliefs in plays without just insulting them.

Your point? Should insulting bring the death penalty? Do you advocate governmental laws that require us all to be nice to each other? Why no opposition to the “One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood” thread? What Christian would not be insulted by it?

[bint_muhammed]

Of course I would concider it an insult. But I wouldn’t kill him. His neighbors would need not fear because they lived on the same block as he did.


Your point? Should insulting bring the death penalty? Do you advocate governmental laws that require us all to be nice to each other? Why no opposition to the “One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood” thread? What Christian would not be insulted by it?

sorry, throughout the thread i dont recall Fishman agreeing that they should be violent, only saying that they should insult others! :rollseyes

[wilberhum]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9209EB2973.htm

Flemming Rose said

bowing to fears of a violent Muslim reaction would only worsen the problem: "You play into the hands of the radicals. You are telling them: your tactics are working. This is a victory for the radicals. It's weakening the moderate Muslims who are our allies in this battle of ideas."

And I could not agree more.

[Hawa]

Here we go again, "Let's dip our hands in hot oil and see what happens".

[InToTheRain]

Its sick that people out there would intentionally hurt the feelings of billions for their own fame, the person new they would be in the spot light at the expense of the muslims.

And the christians of course do not mind, why should they mind that Jesus's head is severed and placed in a bag? after all they put the man on on a cross with nails dripping with blood, always happy with any display of "pain" their beloved Jesus went through for them.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

They want us to make of our religion as they have made theirs in favor of "free speech" and "democracy". They take their religion as play and amusement. That is what they want us to do. They want us to take the Quran as they have taken their Bible, as a story book. That will never happen.

58: 19. Shaitan (Satan) has overtaken them. So he has made them forget the remembrance of Allah. They are the party of Shaitan (Satan). Verily, it is the party of Shaitan (Satan) that will be the losers!
20. Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad

), they will be among the lowest (most humiliated).

21. Allah has decreed: "Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious." Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty.

[InToTheRain]

How bazar, you say it is sick to intentionally hurt and turn around and say something intentionally to hurt. How bazar. :hiding: :hiding:

Im just sick of hearing "Muslims Over react" when the people fully know we don't allow portrayal of many things in art especially our Prophet(SAW) and their companions...I THINK IT A WELL KNOWN FACT NOW DON'T YOU?

And then People come and say how "The christians" don't mind and look at the "MUSLIMS". Fact is christians will not mind because they themselves portray Jesus in a degraded state in the church.

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

The german are up in arm,,that is their politicians who say that the SHOW MUST GO ON..They wish to force the opera to open the show,

This is their testament,to insult and thus from these mockery they call it ART..

May i ask to the westerners here,do you need to slap someone or insult someone to learn humility and decency?
Or are you seeking to learn how to be brutal and unthinking?

What is the goal of the western world in making these offesive shows?
What does it help them as a whole and as a human being?

The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004

I just wish to highlight that this beheading is AN ADDITION.
Is this a necessary addition,to convey the shows meaning?

[duskiness]

Its sick that people out there would intentionally hurt the feelings of billions for their own fame, the person new they would be in the spot light at the expense of the muslims.

And the christians of course do not mind, why should they mind that Jesus's head is severed and placed in a bag? after all they put the man on on a cross with nails dripping with blood, always happy with any display of "pain" their beloved Jesus went through for them.

WnbSlveOfALLah, I find your post both ignorant and plainly rude. You ask for "respect" and don't bother to respect others.
I personaly find it "sick" that opera is being canceled because of the fear of violence. Somehow i don't see any Muslim comment on that...:?
n.

[InToTheRain]

WnbSlveOfALLah, I find your post both ignorant and plainly rude. You ask for "respect" and don't bother to respect others.
I personaly find it "sick" that opera is being canceled because of the fear of violence. Somehow i don't see any Muslim comment on that...:?
n.

If you think it is showing disrespect to christians by saying they like seeing Jesus christ in pain then don't portray him in pain, on the cross with nails while dripping wih blood in the church. Otherwise explain what is so disrespectful about what I said?

[duskiness]

Otherwise explain what is so disrespectful about what I said?

once again:

And the christians of course do not mind, why should they mind that Jesus's head is severed and placed in a bag? after all they put the man on on a cross with nails dripping with blood, always happy with any display of "pain" their beloved Jesus went through for them.

but it seems that all you can see are acts of disrespects towards one religion.
that's my last post on this thread. i'm fed up.
n.

[Zulkiflim]

once again:

but it seems that all you can see are acts of disrespects towards one religion.
that's my last post on this thread. i'm fed up.
n.

Salaam,

Duskiness,did you watch the Temptation of Christ? I think that is the title of the movie by Mel Gibson?

In it and in the church ,it is understood that jesus supposedly endured pain for mankind.

Is it wrong to say that chrsitan glorify the pain and sacrifice?

Is it not the symblo of the cross,with the man on the cross looking wan and sickly with blood running down his head?

If you do not glorify Jesus experience according to Church views,then i would say many muslim is wront in that insight.
Or are we right?

[Zulkiflim]

WnbSlveOfALLah, I find your post both ignorant and plainly rude. You ask for "respect" and don't bother to respect others.
I personaly find it "sick" that opera is being canceled because of the fear of violence. Somehow i don't see any Muslim comment on that...:?
n.

Salaam,

Fear of violence,,,so they stopped the opera out of fear..
Not out of respect.

They did not stop it out of courtesy towards another but due to fear.

Then tell me who has to learn from this?

The instigator or the instigated?

It is always the muslim whom are at fault,
When the caricatures came out,Danish muslim and 11 ambassodors desired dialogue with the Danish minister,but was rebuffed..
And when this was made public they said IT IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

I guess it is only after the violence towards Danes and Danes felt the economic impact that they desired to TALK to MUSLIMS..

So tell me,,,,are you proud to instigate such behaviour?
Would you need to fear if you did not do anyhting wrong,you already know it is taboo,but out of disrespect and malice you do it anyway.

So ask yourself,SHOULD YOU FEAR? YES....becasue you know you are wrong

[Keltoi]

Like Duskiness, I feel there is too much ignorance in the past few posts to even bother, but I'm not easily offended by ignorance. If you want people to "have respect" for Islam, perhaps you should start by having some basic respect for other religions. If some "artist" wants to portray Jesus Christ as beheaded or any other blasphemy, that is an insult to Christianity and it does make me angry, but I will not commit further blasphemy by defending my God of peace through violence and intimidation. If you think violence is justified because some opera portrays something insulting to you, that perhaps says more about you than it does the opera. Like duskiness, I'm fed up with this thread. So insult Christians and promote violence all you want.

[Zulkiflim]

Like Duskiness, I feel there is too much ignorance in the past few posts to even bother, but I'm not easily offended by ignorance. If you want people to "have respect" for Islam, perhaps you should start by having some basic respect for other religions. If some "artist" wants to portray Jesus Christ as beheaded or any other blasphemy, that is an insult to Christianity and it does make me angry, but I will not commit further blasphemy by defending my God of peace through violence and intimidation. If you think violence is justified because some opera portrays something insulting to you, that perhaps says more about you than it does the opera. Like duskiness, I'm fed up with this thread. So insult Christians and promote violence all you want.

Salaam,

Can you tell me,in this surreptious attitude of yours...

If the person whom are acting and directing the play are Catholics Chrsitian...what would you say to them?

Would you keep silent and let them go on with theyr blashemy,,as you recognize it to be?

I did not say violence is justified,but violence is the reuslt not the casue.

Not listening,not respecting and not understanding.

We do not force our views on you,we respect you,but you should respect us back.
Unless it is normal in the west to stab one in the back,while still calling that person friend...

[InToTheRain]

The only difference between art that Christians find offensive and art Muslims find offensive is the threat of violence. If Christian groups are offended by something, that something will happen anyway, because Christians normally do not resort to violence in those situations. Respect for religions are important, but in a secular society if you don't like the opera, then don't buy a ticket. It is ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on egg shells for fear of violence.

Your above statement is a very ingnorant, It is well known fact, and should be by now that Muslims will not tolerate Portrayal of Mohammad(SAW) in art UNLIKE CHRISTIANS. It has angered the Muslims greatly and im sure the "Artist" was aware that it would given the current political climate. one wonders why they do this, maybe it is to check the pulse of the muslims?

Then you went on to "Christians normally do not resort to violence" and you were saying and muslims do. In defence of why some muslims will resort to Violence (and its wrong that they do because insulting the prophet(SAW) is like spitting at a fan) is because in Islam we have never portrayed Mohammad(SAW) in art due to our respect for him, we consird it a sin and an insult to the prophet(SAW). The christians obviuosly hav diffrent beliefs, and do not care of such things.

And then I gave reasons why the christians are not offended as much when such art is depicted of Jesus.It is because they are used to seeing graphic images of Jesus dying in their church. I aplogise for not being able to say it nicer then that but its a fact.

Therefore it can be easily seen why Muslims will react angrily to such arts, and even in violence do to uncontrolable emotions even though it is wrong. one can say to a muslim it's similiar or worse then insulting their mother in a similliar fashion.

Its very easy to understand really.. and its true, calling my posts and that of others "Ignorant" doesn't prove anything...but its a nice way to avoid the subject.

[Andaraawus]

you have to be kidding right?
Pope Benedict XVI declared a holy war.?

[Keltoi]

In defiance of my better judgement I will post another thread. The reason Christians create images of Christ's suffering on the cross is a reminder of Christ's suffering, not a glorification of suffering. Since you aren't a Christian I don't expect you to understand what that means.
I understand many are offended by this opera(or what many were told about this opera), and I would support any effort to counter the message of this opera constructively. Threats of violence and intimidation are not constructive, and will only fuel this "anti-Islamic" phenomenon that I do believe exists in Western society.
Here is the main point. If you move to a secular Western society, be prepared to be offended. I'm offended every day of my life, for many reasons. However, I wouldn't give up my freedom in this secular society for a theocracy of any kind. I know that I'm free to worship however I want, and nobody can take that away from me. If you can't handle the freedom of speech and the fact that one religion isn't protected over another, then perhaps you shouldn't live in Western society. That may sound harsh, but quite frankly I don't see another alternative.
Another thing...if you think attacking Christianity serves some useful purpose in the context of this discussion, then perhaps you should think long and hard about what you are complaining about.

[Trumble]

:sl:

This quote proves that the playwright is not just making art, but is actually showing his contempt for the Prophets (pbut) at the same time.
:w:

What "playwright"? This is a Mozart opera!

Mozart, like anyone else, was a product of his time, and his art needs to be considered with that in mind... as does all art that can "offend" a present day audience because perceptions of morality have changed since the piece was created. Mozart was not showing contempt to muslims (or at least no more than any other member of the society in which he lived), and the muslim audience at the time would have been as near zero as makes no difference. In this instance any muslim "offence" is just hyped up nonsense - if everyone had just shut up how many muslims would even have known about this (let alone actually seen it).

This "offence" thing is getting out of hand, and the muslim world needs to get some sort of handle on it. When it comes to obtaining tolerance and respect it's becoming increasing counter-productive, and the more common such incidents become the less anybody else is going to actually care... "it's just those nutty muslims again, ignore them, they are never happy". Not MY opinion, I hasten to add, but a general perception of what is happening among non-muslims in my own country.

[guyabano]

Salaam,

Fear of violence,,,so they stopped the opera out of fear..
Not out of respect.

They did not stop it out of courtesy towards another but due to fear.

You hit the nail ! I also read ni newspaper that this is the reason. People in western world start to get scared about islam, because people are getting tired of the permanent whining of muslims about this and that !
They are scared to become victims of bombings and killing.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I just don't see the point of bringing religion into plays or opera's etc. If you want to insult/attack your own religion, fine. But have the decency not to involve other religions into it. It's as simple as that!

[Muezzin]

Trumble, I know this is a Mozart opera - however, the severed heads 'are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera'. Nobody's saying anything about banning Mozart's work, if that's what you meant. If that is not what you meant, I apologise for assuming so.

You hit the nail ! I also read ni newspaper that this is the reason. People in western world start to get scared about islam, because people are getting tired of the permanent whining of muslims about this and that !

Um, everyone has the right to 'whine', or express their disapproval. That's freedom of speech. However...

They are scared to become victims of bombings and killing.

Violence over words that cause offence are wrong, I agree with you there. There are certain people in the Muslim community who really have to understand that 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. It's a sad state of affairs when plays are cancelled not out of respect, but out of fear. I mean, after 9/11, films and even videogames (Metal Gear Solid 2 to be precise) set in New York were altered so that they did not include footage of the Twin Towers - this was out of respect for the victims, rather than out of fear of violent retaliation.

I think people should discuss the issue rather than getting violent - Muslims do condemn the violence. In the case of this opera, quite frankly I didn't even know of its existence till I read about it a couple of days ago. Even then I was like 'why bother cancelling it? How many Muslims would go to the opera in the first place?'

I'm not saying it's right to depict the Prophet Muhammad (SAW), it's just something to bear in mind. On the other hand, playing Devil's advocate of sorts, in the case of the opera, if the severed head in question is not essential to the plot (and frankly it seems to be simply artistic masturbation on the part of the director), would it still be violating freedom of speech to simply remove that prop, yet keep the others intact? I.e. don't cancel the play, don't remove the entire scene in question, just remove the Muhammad prop. Would that have been reasonable, considering the violence it would most likely cause?

I do wonder if those arguing that freedom of speech has been violated would say the same thing for, say, certain videogames being removed from shelves because of causing offence to religous groups. Or, to go one step further, the game 'Manhunt' being banned in New Zealand on grounds of violence.

[Fishman]

:sl:

just remove the Muhammad prop. Would that have been reasonable, considering the violence it would most likely cause?

Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet too, why shouldn't his head prop also be removed?
:w:

[KAding]

:sl:

Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet too, why shouldn't his head prop also be removed?
:w:

What about the polytheists, can we still decapitate them? :)

[Fishman]

What about the polytheists, can we still decapitate them? :)

:sl:
A decapitated head of Poseidon is not offensive to Muslims, but it could be to somebody else.
:w: