Who & what is Israel?

[Andaraawus]

According to my understanding of the Bible, Israel is not a land nor the promised land to the Jews but a person. Biblical tradition records that Prophet Jacob wrestled with an angel and was named Israel from that day on. The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan. Jacob was Abrahams grandson. The Quran rightfully calls the tribes of Jacob 'yaa bani Israaail' i.e. 'o children of Israel'. Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.
Keep in mind i am not denying Israel, far from it. I acknowledge Israel, Prophet Jacob and i acknowldge that the children of Israel have the right to the land they live in right now. However alot of afgahnistanis and pakistanis also have right to Israel being from the tribe of Benjamen, son of Jacob. But yet they are denied to enter it and most passports from that region have stamped in it 'not allowed in Israel'. Why do the children of Israel deny entrance to the children of Israel? why is the 'faith of Jacob' now called Judaism after the tribe of Judah? Why the eclusiveness?

[therebbe]

According to my understanding of the Bible, Israel is not a land nor the promised land to the Jews but a person.

Actually the name "Israel" or "Yisrael" means comes from the root word Yisra and Al which means "to struggle with G-d.

The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan.

Untrue, his seed became the people of Israel. The people the "Canaanites" were idolators.

Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.

It became a land when the Jews were promised it by G-d. When the Jews lived there peacefully thousands of years before Islam was created.

However alot of afgahnistanis and pakistanis also have right to Israel being from the tribe of Benjamen

Yet... DNA tests have been found to show that they have no relation to the 10 tribes. Actually, your statement if illogical, because Genetic research using Y-chromosome haploid analysis has proved there is no relation of Pakistani's to the Holy Land.

Why do the children of Israel deny entrance to the children of Israel?

Your theory is completly wrong. They are not the children of Israel. The true children of israel were defended by G-d against the Arab armies trying to destroy her in all the wars.

why is the 'faith of Jacob' now called Judaism after the tribe of Judah? Why the eclusiveness?

Showing your knowledge of absolutly nothing again are we?

The word for Judaism in Hebrew is "Yehudi":

the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted :)).


The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.


So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.


As far as the word for "yehudi" in English "Judaism" it was taken from Judah, but in reality that is not what the religions name signifies, but instead what some English translator probably called it.

Why the eclusiveness?

Because we are the exculsive people of the land.

Your post has shown your weak knowledge on the subject. if your thesis was a paper, I would probably give you an "F" for having no knowledge on the topic, and linking obsurd points together.

[جوري]

Our story begins about 5,000 years ago on a hill 55 miles inland from the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. The Jebusites, a tribe of the Canaanites, have chosen it to be the site of new place of worship in honour of Shalem, the Canaanite God of Dusk.


The original name of this place of worship survives because it was inscribed on stone tablets found in Elba, Syria, c. 3000 BCE; on Egyptian statues, c. 2,500 BCE; and on shards of ceramic Egyptian Execration Texts dating to the XII Dynasty, c. 1900 BCE.


It reads: “Urushalem,” a Canaanite word comprising the prefix “Uru” (“founded by”) and “Shalem.”* We know this place today as Jerusalem—“Founded by Shalem,” a Canaanite God.


About 1,200 years later, according to legend, a man named Abraham left the Sumerian city of Ur, in what is now Occupied Iraq, and immigrated to Canaan.


A further 600-odd years later c.1184 BCE, a people called the Hebrews invaded Canaan, which the Greeks called Phoenicia. Even by Biblical accounts, which must be taken with several grains of salt, these Hebrews acted like marauding savages, as in this account of the sack of Jericho:


“They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.… And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.”†


Hebrew domination of Canaan began with the reign of three kings: Saul, r. 1112–1072 BCE; David, r. 1072–1032 BCE; and Solomon, r. 1032–992 BCE. This account is almost certainly folkloric, since the odds of three kings each ruling for exactly 40 years is statistically implausible, and 40 is a recurring apocryphal number.


David is credited with uniting the 12 tribes of Israel and establishing Urushalem as the political and religious capital of a United Israel after he brought the Ark of the Covenant with him from Hebron, David’s capital for seven years.


United Israel deteriorated toward the end of Solomon’s reign, and under his son Rehoboam it split into the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judea. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 BCE, and the Babylonians conquered Judea in 597 BCE. Thus endeth the reign of the Hebrews.


This thumbnail sojourn into ancient history is meant to show three simple truths:


• Jerusalem was founded by Canaanites.


• Jerusalem as the “City of David” lasted all of 73 years, or 1.46 percent of the city’s entire history. If the 5,000 years of Jerusalem’s history were defined as one 24-hour day, the Hebrews would have had it for 21 minutes and 1.44 seconds.


• Even if we include the divided kingdom period, continuous proto-Jewish control over Jerusalem lasted only 516 years, a far cry from the 1,277 years it was under Muslim rule (637–1914 CE).


Sources:


* See, for example, Karen Armstrong, Jerusalem, One City, Three Faiths (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996) pp. 6-7.


† Joshua 6:21, 24. KJV.
BTW if Israel is promised to the seed of Abraham then that means would go to Ishmael as he was his first born and the father of modern day Muslims... also Most Middle eastern Muslims today can trance their roots back to the original Hebrews through both Issac and Ishmael.... as many of those originals became Christian with christianity and Muslim with Islam....
Anyhow I am sick of people fighting over a piece of land really..... enough already!

[Andaraawus]

Shalom Therebbe,

Firstly I would like to thank you for entering this dialogue and expressing your views and I do wish to continue to dialogue with you in a fruitful manner.

I have based my thoughts on evidences from the Tanakh. Needless to say, there has been numerous and differing views in regards to the meaning of Israel “Yisra'el”. Some scholars opine that because Ya'akov (Jacob) fought with an Angel, he was then called “Yisra'el" meaning to "to struggle with G-d.” as you have stated. However other scholars of Hebrew opine that “Yisra'el” means “righteous with G-d,” “nations of G-d,” amongst other opinions to tedious to mention.

The etymology of “Yisra'el” has no logical bearing to the crux of my argument. Hence, whether “Yisra'el” means “to struggle with G-d” or “Righteous with G-d” is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. My argument is that Israel is not a land, but a Biblical personality and also the linage of that personality.

According to the first book of the tanakh, chapter 35; verse 10, G-d renames Jacob as Isra'el:

“And G-d said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Isra'el.” (VaYishlach)
to hear the Hebrew click here

Then we have the account where Jacob wrestles an angel:

“…he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with G-d and with men, and hast prevailed.”
-Tanakh - Genesis (VaYishlach )32:28 or 29To hear the Hebrew click here

It is important to mention here that this is the first time Israel is mentioned throughout the Jewish & Christian scripture. These evidences clearly show that Israel was non other than Prophet Jacob, so I simply was asking anybody who wishes to participate, where does it state in the totality of the book known as the Bible, that Israel is a land?

Instead of an answer my brother, you chose to speak on the etymology of the word “Yisrael”. I don’t know if you intended this, but in the circle of logic and reason this fallacy is known as a “red herring”. A distraction technique from the topic at hand.

Secondly, I stated that The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan. In answer to this you said “untrue”. Whereas the Bible clearly states that G-d made a promise to Abraham to give him Canaan:

“And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d”. – Genesis 17:8 Click here to hear this verse in Hebrew

I don’t wish to belittle you on this point, we all make mistakes in regards to quoting and knowing our scripture. Many times I have been corrected about my mistakes. But you see from this verse G-d promised Abraham Canaan, G-d never said anything about the land being called Israel. However i am in agreement that the children of Israel have a divine right to the land of Canaan, but keeping in mind that it is not only Israel that are Abrahams seed.

Thirdly I claimed that many Pakaistanis and Afghanistanis are actually from the tribe of Benjameen, making them also the children of Israel. Documentation is required on my behalf and G-d willing, when I have complied the documentation, I will not hesitate to submit it here. However, I am interested in seeing your evidence on the DNA research.

Fourthly, I in so many words said that Judaism is an exclusive religion, which excludes the rest of the eleven tribes. You are correct in saying “The word for Judaism in Hebrew is "Yehudi”, and I am glad you bought that up. Judaism was infact named after Jacobs son Judah (Yahuda). The term Judaism was unheard of before Judah. The terms Juadism and Jews was first used by Jews to distinguish their relgion from Hellenism. G-d never called the true monotheistic faith of Abraham, Jacob or Moses Judaism.

Besides Moses was a Levite, he wasn’t from the tribe of Judah, so he can’t have been a Jew! Abraham and Jacob lived way before Judah, so they were unfamiliar with this term Jew. For this very reason G-d says in the Qur’an:

“Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian, but he was an upright Muslim (Haneefan Musliman i.e. in submission to god) and he did not join other gods with G-d.” – Qur’an 3:67.

The problem that Jews and Christians face with man made terminologies for the name of their religion is that they have to do a lot of explaining as to where that term came from. With Islam its different, even though the term was first used at the event of the final prophet to mankind, the meaning denotes submission to G-d and therefore can be applied to anybody who submitted wholeheartedly to G-d including the Biblical patriarchs such as Abraham, Moses e.t.c.

My Jewish brother, despite your adhominems against me, I wish for your guidance and wish to keep inviting you back to your true monotheistic faith of your forefathers. Feel free to dialogue with me, but try to be more constructive and respectful in the way you speak. There is only one true G-d and Muhammad is His final messenger.

Shalom & kind regards

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[Muhammad]

Greetings,

It became a land when the Jews were promised it by G-d. When the Jews lived there peacefully thousands of years before Islam was created.

I assume you meant the advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him), since all the Prophets before him were upon the religion of Islam and hence it was not a message that was suddenly created but on the contrary, one that was revived.

[Andaraawus]

Muhammad has a point, the true faith of your forefathers has always been Islam in its meaning and definition, Islam simply means sumbission to G-d.
Brother have you ever properly looked at ISlam. Dont miss the last train my brother, Islam can complete your way of life, we can discuss further.

[Andaraawus]

Thanks for the information pure...

BTW if Israel is promised to the seed of Abraham then that means would go to Ishmael as he was his first born and the father of modern day Muslims... also Most Middle eastern Muslims today can trance their roots back to the original Hebrews through both Issac and Ishmael.... as many of those originals became Christian with christianity and Muslim with Islam....

We can also discuss who was Abarahams seed if you wish. wasalams

[Ninth_Scribe]

Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.

Land distribution of the 12 tribes in accordance with the Torah, which might help to explain some of my confusion with the current state. I charge that the descendants of these 12 sons fought against each other, which rendered the covenant between them, with Hashem, null and void. 12 sons made this pact and their sons broke it via a civil war over who should be king (inserts swear word here).

http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-joshua-saul.gif

While I would violently defend the land of Judea (that which was given to the sons of Benjamin and Judah who still exist today), I do not feel obligated to defend their occupation of Israelite land, that land belonging to the 10 tribes of Israel the Judeans fought against. I do not believe the soul of any true Israelite would knowingly bequeath his tribe's partition of land to a Judean, and many had cursed the land accordingly.

Since Israel, under it's covenant with Hashem, involved all 12 sons (and their descendants), and these sons were alloted separate lands accordingly, I contend that to create a new state called Israel (when it is clearly not all of Israel), is a blasphemy.

The division between Israel and Judea was made by the sons of Israel and Judea and, unless their can be a reconcilliation between them - which is impossible since the Israelites are not present to agree to one - the past cannot be undone no matter how guenuine the sentiment might be today. Sorry.

Ninth Scribe

[جوري]

Thanks for the information pure...



We can also discuss who was Abarahams seed if you wish. wasalams

We should ... we also should discuss that Abraham (PBUH) BOUGHT A LAND from the cannanites in which to bury Sarah upon her death ... mentioned in the Bible ... if the Land belonged to him why would he have a need to make a purchase? He was clearly making a point.... Either way history clearly states Jewish control over Jerusalem lasted only 516 years, a far cry from the 1,277 years it was under Muslim rule (637–1914 CE)..... but who is listening? They continue military aggression against the inhabitants both Christian and Muslims... I don't care who brain washes whom with genetic research... a very clear sign those Caucasian Jews are Ashkenazics who have converted to Judaism during the 7th century and have nothing to do with original Israelites more over if we were going to go by their research then we might as well ALL trace our roots to Africa.... Most Americans down three or four generations can trace their roots back to somewhere in Europe does that mean that a few million of them should go back invading simply because their ancestors belonged there? and they felt compelled to leave fleeing religious persecution? It makes no sense what so ever... For the time being only God is listening and watching........

[Ninth_Scribe]

more over if we were going to go by their research then we might as well ALL trace our roots to Africa....... For the time being only God is listening and watching........

Another brilliant mind that sees the need to resurrect the Book of Generations?

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

Since Israel, under it's covenant with Hashem, involved all 12 sons (and their descendants), and these sons were alloted separate lands accordingly, I contend that to create a new state called Israel (when it is clearly not all of Israel), is a blasphemy.

Did it? Please enlight me on this. Can you show me the DNA evidence of the where all the sons are? Let me ask you, if 11 sons die, and the 12th remains, does the 12 not get the property of the land they all lived on? Or should instead foreign invaders from Mecca get the land?

It reads: “Urushalem,” a Canaanite word comprising the prefix “Uru” (“founded by”) and “Shalem.”* We know this place today as Jerusalem—“Founded by Shalem,” a Canaanite God.

The origin of the name of the city is uncertain. It is possible to understand the name (Hebrew Yerushalayim) as either "Heritage of Salem" or "Heritage of Peace" – a contraction of "heritage" (yerusha) and either Salem (Shalem literally "whole" or "in harmony") or shalom ("peace").

Needless to say, there has been numerous and differing views in regards to the meaning of Israel

Your argument is illogical. If you knew hebrew then you could translate what "Yisra" and "El" were.

We should ... we also should discuss that Abraham (PBUH) BOUGHT A LAND from the cannanites in which to bury Sarah upon her death ... mentioned in the Bible ... if the Land belonged to him why would he have a need to make a purchase?

Actually the land he bought was outside the land that G-d gave to the Jewish People who follow his Torah, his true word to this day.

[

[جوري]

The above is from history books pages included ... if you are an illuminati on the subject than perhaps you can publish your own book with your own subjective views ... whatever it takes to ease your conscious of the illegality of the colonial settler state of Israel... I share my view with many even rabbis btw......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rjnv...related&search

[therebbe]

I share my view with many even rabbis btw......

You call someone who picks and chooses which laws to obey a Rabbi? You call someone who breaks jewish law, halacha in many aspects a rabbi? You call a man who commits 'chillul hashem' and breaks jewish law every day a rabbi? You call a man who was proven by bank records to be recieving payments by Arafat a Rabbi?

Maybe I should call someone who eats pork an Imam then....

Or maybe you should learn a little about halacha before you decide to speak about Rabbi's.

But hey.... I guess I could claim to be a Imam right now, put on islamic garbs, and speak for the Muslim community right now if I wanted to... couldn't I?

[جوري]

I fail to see why you are so vehement? More over I can't for the life of me understand why you would judge another human being like that? I despise the colonial settler state of Israel, yet I have never been hateful toward you or judged you for your views though they are completely illogical to me as well and most who have some formal background in history? In fact everyone on this forum seems to welcome you. What an unusual trait to possess and call oneself a man of G-D and go on cursing even your own kin?...

I don't care who does what from the Muslim community only G-D knows whom his hosts are in this world it says so right in the Quran...كَذَلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ {31}[Pickthal 74:31] None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

Lots of people do awful things in the name of Islam by the way and it gets plastered all over your newspapers as "Islam this and Islam that" with no chance for clarification from actual practicing Muslims....

speaking of Arafat... he married an xtian woman stolen the money of the palis and put her and his daughter in France... I don't know his intentions to me didn't seem to lie with the Palestenians so it seems a far stretch he would bribe a Rabbi... you are an educated man.... surely you know what sort of scandels people can plaster on others who don't share their views or political agendas.... I take politics and corporate media "info" with a grain of salt...

people can behave piously and be complete hypocrites... a recent example though I digress is congressman Foley who retired on pedophile charges yet was such an avid crusader against pedophiles and for children's rights..... Do you really know what is in the heart of another human being? I actually admire the courage of that man and those like him... for standing up for the truth as billions know it.

[Andaraawus]

Shalom,

Your argument is illogical. If you knew hebrew then you could translate what "Yisra" and "El" were.

Thats your "ra" to assume things! My arguement was not the tranlation and meaning of "Yisrael" - (yisra -present/future tense meaning "He prevails or will prevail" and 'El, a general term and also the proper divine name of G-d e.g. "El Shaddai").

The fact that you have not dealt with the issue at hand expresses your inability to show that Yisrael is a land. Therefore i conclude that the state of Israel does not have a divine right to exist, however the children of Israel do have a divine right to the small peice of land known as Canaan. The next question to any Jew or Christian that wishes to discuss is:

SHOULD THE ISRAELITES SHARE CANAAN WITH THE ISHMAELITES?

[Andaraawus]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

See this link :http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

[therebbe]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

Please explain to me, how there actions do not break jewish law. Or maybe I can tell you since I live in communities with them, and they number about 1,000 and they follow a radical leader who preaches against the torah in some cases.

You respect the so called "Rabbi" because he politically aligns with you. Not because he follows any Jewish law. That is just pathetic. You should search peace loving Rabbi's not radicals that preach hate, and once a prophecy arrives they will be your worst enemy.

You call someone who picks and chooses which laws to obey a Rabbi? You call someone who breaks jewish law, halacha in many aspects a rabbi? You call a man who commits 'chillul hashem' and breaks jewish law every day a rabbi? You call a man who was proven by bank records to be recieving payments by Arafat a Rabbi?

Maybe I should call someone who eats pork an Imam then....

Or maybe you should learn a little about halacha before you decide to speak about Rabbi's.

But hey.... I guess I could claim to be a Imam right now, put on islamic garbs, and speak for the Muslim community right now if I wanted to... couldn't I?

[جوري]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

See this link :http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

Thank you... I am not bothered ... each man is entitled to his opinion though it doesn't mean it is correct ... it just fosters beliefs upon which the very foundation of "Israel's" existence stands and everything that, that would entail henceforth....I don't get emotionally involved with a thread... at least not the way I used to......:)
p.s I am a sister;D ;D ;D

[Andaraawus]

Shalom,

You talk about preaching hatred? and at this very moment you are accusing him of 'chillul hashem' ... ?

How has he desecrated G-ds name? and how do you know?

Has he committed na'aph (az-zina) ? and how would you know?

Has he murdered somebody unlawfully? and how would you know?

do you know what you are saying??????

I suggest you go and research halacha before throwing it around!

According to Jewsih law one receives the death penalty for chillul hashem!

Basically, our Jewish brother here has done takfeer on another Jew. When the Yehuwd takfeer each other it also implies that person is worthy of the the death sentence, which in effect is practised, within Jewish controlled states.

This is one of the reasons i put the - instead of the 'o' in G-d, otherwise i could get accused of 'chillul hashem' i.e., desecration of G-ds name.
Mostly i do it out of respect not to agrivate my Jewish brother, however he is too shortsighted to see that.

My brother, you have repeated yourself, so will i, and please keep to the topic :

The fact that you have not dealt with the issue at hand expresses your inability to show that Yisrael is a land. Therefore i conclude that the state of Israel does not have a divine right to exist, however the children of Israel do have a divine right to the small peice of land known as Canaan. The next question to any Jew or Christian that wishes to discuss is:

SHOULD THE ISRAELITES SHARE CANAAN WITH THE ISHMAELITES?

[therebbe]

You talk about preaching hatred? and at this very moment you are accusing him of 'chillul hashem' ... ?

I live near people who belief in some of the radical so called 'rabbi's'. They desecrate G-d's name. Break halacha. I have seen them break Shabbos. They miss prayers, and break many ethical laws.

I don't expect you to know much about them though, unless of course you know them and there ideals and there actions and live in the center of a traditional jewish community of chassidim.

[Andaraawus]

O.k , you may be right, however G-d knows best. Islam teaches to have good opnion of our brothers, even if they do fall back into sin, that is not syaing that we are not free of accusing each other of deviation. It happens all the time. Mankind is disobedient, unless they do "tawbah" i.e; "nacham". Please feel free to answer the question i posed. Shalom.

[therebbe]

SHOULD THE ISRAELITES SHARE CANAAN WITH THE ISHMAELITES?

Who are the Ishmaelites to you? Muslims? Arabs?

My beliefs differ from yours.

[Andaraawus]

Hmmm, then i would guess that you dont believe the 'Arabs come from the linage of Ishmael but Qahtan right? I have to make it perfectly clear that Avraham and Yisma'el are not the father of all the 'Arabs as there were 'Arabs in Arabia before Hagar and Yisma'el got to Makkah.
My believe is that Muhammad is related to Yisma'el through Kedar and again i have Biblical and historical documentation to present on this topic. However if you wish to discuss the legitimacy of Yisma'el first then, i ask you dont use any degrading terms for him, as you may understand, we Muslims have a great respect for him. back to you.

[جوري]

Who is Qahtan?

[therebbe]

My believe is that Muhammad is related to Yisma'el through Kedar and again i have Biblical and historical documentation to present on this topic.

Please present your facts from non-propoganda sources. And also, please use correct translations when dealing with the Bible. After all that, tell me how we are to determine who exactly is a "Ismaelite". Do you have NA evidence?

[Andaraawus]

Salam.

I feel its appropiate to inform you that theres three types of 'Arab

1. The 'Arabs that have perished: The ancient 'Arabs such as: 'Ad, Thamud, Tasm, e.t.c. They have long gone and no 'Arab today has descended from them as Allah destroyed them all.

2. The pure 'Arabs: These are the descendants of Ya'rub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan, also known as the Qahtanians. These were the nomadic 'Arabs that were present in 'Arabia at the time when Hajar and Isma'el were living in Makkah. They settled in Makkah after Mother Hajar had shaped the Zam Zam well with her own hands. The Prophet saws said in so many words that if it werent for Hajar shaping the well, the Zam Zam would have been a running stream. Some of the Qahtanians settled in Makkah due to the Zam Zam water.

3. The Arabized 'Arabs: The progeny of Ismael (a.s), these are also known as the Adnanians.

Qahtan was one of the fathers of the 'Arabs.

Wasalams

[Andaraawus]

Please present your facts from non-propoganda sources. And also, please use correct translations when dealing with the Bible. After all that, tell me how we are to determine who exactly is a "Ismaelite". Do you have NA evidence?

Yes i will, and i think you should know by now that i like to present facts. However, you will have to wait a day because my time here has ran out. I will be back on tomorrow. G-d willing. Furthemore if you want me to quote the Hebrew then i have not problem in doing so. Of course i will offer translation as well.

i cant believe you said "Bible"! youre the first Jew i have heard say that word. Go on i dare you to say "Biblos" hehhhee :D im joking.

See you soon. Shalom

[therebbe]

Secular influence can get to anyone. lol. :p

[Andaraawus]

Yasher Koakh - may your strengh be firm. -

[therebbe]

Yasher Koakh - may your strengh be firm. -

Type it onto google? ;D

[Andaraawus]

אולי :rollseyes

[therebbe]

אולי :rollseyes

אני לוקח זה כפי שכן

[Ninth_Scribe]

Let me ask you, if 11 sons die, and the 12th remains, does the 12 not get the property of the land they all lived on?

Certainly, but not if the 12th son murdered the others to acquire it.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

Certainly, but not if the 12th son murdered the others to acquire it.

Ninth Scribe

The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, enslaved and exiled by ancient Assyria. They might have fought with there brothers, but there removal and destruction was not the work of them.

[Skillganon]

Please explain to me, how there actions do not break jewish law. Or maybe I can tell you since I live in communities with them, and they number about 1,000 and they follow a radical leader who preaches against the torah in some cases.

You respect the so called "Rabbi" because he politically aligns with you. Not because he follows any Jewish law. That is just pathetic. You should search peace loving Rabbi's not radicals that preach hate, and once a prophecy arrives they will be your worst enemy.

You call someone who picks and chooses which laws to obey a Rabbi? You call someone who breaks jewish law, halacha in many aspects a rabbi? You call a man who commits 'chillul hashem' and breaks jewish law every day a rabbi? You call a man who was proven by bank records to be recieving payments by Arafat a Rabbi?

Most of what you said goes same for you.

[Ninth_Scribe]

The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, enslaved and exiled by ancient Assyria. They might have fought with there brothers, but there removal and destruction was not the work of them.

Oh really? Are you saying the Judeans (defined as the sons of Benjamin and Judah) had absolutely no relationship with Assyria? Check carefully before you answer that:

2 Kings 16:7-9 "So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria, saying, "I am your servant and your son. Come up and save me from the hand of the king of Syria and from the hand of the king of Israel, who rise up against me." And Ahaz took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD, and in the treasuries of the king's house, and sent it as a present to the king of Assyria."

That was blood money. You would dare to tell me the fall of Israel was not the work of the Judeans? And while we're on the subject, we may as well dig up the original conflict itself. Who was the rightful heir to the throne of Israel?

But apart from these facts and figures which are all very interesting, I still have trouble accepting the fact that the Judeans separated from the Israelites... but now want to BE the Israelites... and have chosen America (as opposed to Assyria) as their champion.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

You would dare to tell me the fall of Israel was not the work of the Judeans?

The fall of the Kingdom of Israel was the work of G-d because of there sins.

[Ninth_Scribe]

The fall of the Kingdom of Israel was the work of G-d because of there sins.

Then so is the fall of the Temple and the whole of the Kingdom, which means... it no longer exists. So what is the current basis for the claim to Israelite land? I mean, seriously. If anyone can hire a hit-man and call it divine justice... what's the beef with Al Qaeda?

Ninth Scribe

[Andaraawus]

If anyone can hire a hit-man and call it divine justice... what's the beef with Al Qaeda?

Thats a very intresting point.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Thats a very intresting point.

Yes, well it came at an expense. I just scared the living daylights out of myself.

I was angry when I originally accused the Judeans of sicking the Assyrians on Israel and the accusation just came pouring out. I don't know where the anger came from but I couldn't stop myself. Realising what I had done, I was terrified, and went to look it up to see if it could even be proven because the statement wasn't based in fact at the time. Fortunately for me, the passage did exist... but then comes the real question: How did I know that?

I need a break... but as far as I can tell, Al Qaeda's complaint concerning Palestine is justified. It's just horribly presented.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

Then so is the fall of the Temple and the whole of the Kingdom, which means... it no longer exists. So what is the current basis for the claim to Israelite land?

The claim is that it is the Holy Land that G-d gave to the Jewish people under my belief. The people who follow the laws of the Torah. That is the Jewish belief.

The real question is why Muslims are so infurated over the Jews 'conquering' the land, when in fact it has been conquered by Muslims before, and it has been many times over and over again. Especially since Jewish culture thirved in the area so in reality it was "taken back".

Most of what you said goes same for you.

Oh excuse me? Please explain to me how I violate Jewish law.

[Ninth_Scribe]

The claim is that it is the Holy Land that G-d gave to the Jewish people under my belief. The people who follow the laws of the Torah. That is the Jewish belief.

The real question is why Muslims are so infurated over the Jews 'conquering' the land, when in fact it has been conquered by Muslims before, and it has been many times over and over again. Especially since Jewish culture thirved in the area so in reality it was "taken back".

Well, the covenant that was made between the 12 sons... was broken by your fathers, so there is no divine decree and G-d has already announced that by the destruction of both Kingdoms.

The prophecy that mentions the return, states all of Israel, not just your two tribes.

The Muslims aren't pissed about the "battle" for the land. They're pissed that it's under the guise of and is being justified as holy law. The Sunni Arabs are particularly peeved, but since their laws and your own are so identical, I expect there's more of a blood connection than you think.

What ever happened to the days when the biggest dilemna in my life was making the rent payment on time? ****!

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

Well, the covenant that was made between the 12 sons... was broken by your fathers, so there is no divine decree and G-d has already announced that by the destruction of both Kingdoms.

I do not think you understand what the exile was. Please show me where it says that the Covanent between G-d and the faithful who follow his Torah was ever broken.

The prophecy that mentions the return, states all of Israel, not just your two tribes.

There are actually Jews in India who are moving to Israel soon, about 250 of them who claim and might have DNA proof to be one of the 10 tribes. The Jews of Iran who are numerous in Israel could be another. The Black Jews of Ethipia who not live in Jerusalem and other parts claim to be another tribe.

[Ninth_Scribe]

I do not think you understand what the exile was. Please show me where it says that the Covanent between G-d and the faithful who follow his Torah was ever broken.

According to your records, God destroyed your kingdoms because of Avodah Zarah (defined as: material possessions such as Temples becoming more important than the people they were intended to serve), and had you removed as a punishment, though I disagree with this being a punishment. I would have called it a blessing. What makes you so sure what you're doing is God's will? Who is your prophet these days?

There are actually Jews in India who are moving to Israel soon, about 250 of them who claim and might have DNA proof to be one of the 10 tribes. The Jews of Iran who are numerous in Israel could be another. The Black Jews of Ethipia who not live in Jerusalem and other parts claim to be another tribe.

I am aware of the locations of certain of the tribes. I've been tracking them myself. But, what makes you so sure the Israelites will forgive you? You rebelled on them once before... and now, like the Palestinians, you offer them what was already theirs to begin with?

I'm also unhappy about this attitude you have where you somehow feel G-d favors whoever is capable of spilling the most blood since it's a desire to preserve compassion that prevents the Muslims from uniting against you.

Think more on this, but it's late over here and I'm exhausted. Going to get some shut-eye but we'll talk more in the morning.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

What makes you so sure what you're doing is God's will?

My faith. What makes anyone sure.

Who is your prophet these days?

The times of the prophets are over. We await the Moshiach.

But, what makes you so sure the Israelites will forgive you?

They are coming to Israel and express there wanting to, and support the country.

and now, like the Palestinians, you offer them what was already theirs to begin with?

Excuse me? Was the Holy Land ever the Palestinians to "begin" with. I wasn't aware that the Palestinians were the first inhabitants of the land of Israel.... Do you have any DNA proof to back up your claims. Jerusalem was not the Palestinians to begin with. Nor is the Holy Land. It became theres at a point when it was conquered endlessly by different people. Now it is no longer theres, taken from them the exact same way it was taken from the Jews, and the people they took it from before.

whoever is capable of spilling the most blood since it's a desire to preserve compassion that prevents the Muslims from uniting against you.

Right, uniting against who? I thought that happned in '48, and all the other wars.

I'm not recommending the spilling of any blood at all. Your the apologist for people who spill blood, remember, like Mr. Zarqawi, the ones who blew up the wedding in Jordan killing newly weds and babies. What a hero for you right...

[جوري]

You really have to stop with this DNA crap no one is buying it. chances of you sharing DNA with others in NY city on the scale you describe is 1 in 250"Researchers at Yale University evaluated samples of DNA from 38 men from all over the world. Surprisingly. no sequence variations were found in a 729-base pair intron near a gene thought to be involved in sperm or testes development"... "If we all descended from a recent common ancestor, and if the history of human populations is a history of movement and gene flow, then the differences between us, as socially striking as we may wish to make them, are largely irrelevant from a biologist's standpoint,"
So, Yes the Palestinians are the original inhabitants of the land... they might not have been called Palestinians but certainly Canaanites...any modern day Muslim from the middle east can link himself directly to the original tribes than you can. I am willing to bet my bottom dollar on it.. what is your DNA proof? other than pieced together crap from people with an agenda? did you exhume the bodies of Abraham and Jacob and the tribes to relate to them on such a fool proof level ? according to your sources it proves that those of you of European origin have some middle eastern genes... I take that with a grain of salt... but I seriously suggest you reflect a little on what you are writing... at least you remain anonymous here, but don't go running to any discerning historian... and it won't stand up in any court of law........ enough already.
sometimes you show some wisdom and the rest is the rant of two year olds...
Alqeda= Al CIA-Da production with a vid popping out every other day, it is a joke!... Al zarqawi is a fairy tale, sort of like the easter bunny and santa clause... made for mass mind control........ it has been working great thus far.

BTW, no one from the middle east has united against Israel yet I assure you... anymore than Israel having interest in peace with its neighbors... they have proven it before under the reign of Gold Meir and they are proving it yet again..... one thing I can say with certainty is all this is pre-ordained....... God doesn't like injustice and every tyrant shall have his day!

تَتَّخِذُواْ مِن دُونِي وَكِيلاً {2}

[Pickthal 17:2] We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the children of Israel, saying: Choose no guardian beside Me.

ذُرِّيَّةَ مَنْ حَمَلْنَا مَعَ نُوحٍ إِنَّهُ كَانَ عَبْدًا شَكُورًا {3}
[Pickthal 17:3] (They were) the seed of those whom We carried (in the ship) along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.

وَقَضَيْنَا إِلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فِي الْكِتَابِ لَتُفْسِدُنَّ فِي الأَرْضِ مَرَّتَيْنِ وَلَتَعْلُنَّ عُلُوًّا كَبِيرًا {4}
[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً {5}
[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed.

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا {6}
[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوؤُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُواْ مَا عَلَوْاْ تَتْبِيرًا {7}
[Pickthal 17:7] (Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting
......

[therebbe]

So, Yes the Palestinians are the original inhabitants of the land... they might not have been called Palestinians but certainly Canaanites

You have no evidence for that claim.

BTW, no one from the middle east has united against Israel yet I assure you...

With Israel's technology, and the amount of waste they would lay to there enemies if they were about to be destroyed, I'm not sure that would be a good idea.

Alqeda= Al CIA-Da production with a vid popping out every other day

Your credibility among modern day thinkers must be tremendous. Making the claim that Al-Queda was hired by the CIA to destroy American lives...

zarqawi is a fairy tale

Oh, so he was a CIA actor blowing up US troops. Do you think the CIA has more on there mind then killing there own soldiers? or are you that ignorant.

[جوري]

You have no evidence for that claim..

lol.. if that is your logic... then neither does the colonial settler state of Israel whose very existence rested on the Hagana Irgun and Stern Gang, the ORIGINAL TERRORISTS MIND YOU... who blew up the very people who helped them establish the illegal state... do you really wish to go down that path?

With Israel's technology, and the amount of waste they would lay to there enemies if they were about to be destroyed, I'm not sure that would be a good idea...

the amount of thechno you have is nothing short of my tax money and tons of other innocents going to waste... when God makes a promise he keeps it... I'd love to see Israel use Nuclear weapons in the region... would be very short sight on their behalf considering they live right there don't you think?

Your credibility among modern day thinkers must be tremendous. Making the claim that Al-Queda was hired by the CIA to destroy American lives......

tis modern day thinkers who make that claim... most Muslims have conceded their surrender to the BS that is being dished out in their name

Oh, so he was a CIA actor blowing up US troops. Do you think the CIA has more on there mind then killing there own soldiers? or are you that ignorant.

The end does justify the means... wouldn't be the first time they plotted and calculated.

[therebbe]

tis modern day thinkers who make that claim... most Muslims have conceded their surrender to the BS that is being dished out in their name

Please if you compare the modern day thinkers who support my theory compared to yours, my modern day thinkers probably have millions of IQ points higher.

The end does justify the means... wouldn't be the first time they plotted and calculated.

Please... your in the same bathc of men who think the mooon landing was a conspiracy.

[Ninth_Scribe]

When asked what makes you so sure the Israelites would forgive you, you replied:

They are coming to Israel and express there wanting to, and support the country.

Did you tell them the truth? That they are being asked to leave their peaceful existence to go to this new Israel, to be used in a battle they did not create, for a land they will never have sovereignty of? I mean, this is the offer?

I'm not recommending the spilling of any blood at all. Your the apologist for people who spill blood, remember, like Mr. Zarqawi, the ones who blew up the wedding in Jordan killing newly weds and babies. What a hero for you right...

Off topic, but I'll be publishing an interesting report on exactly who he is and what he did (and didn't do) later this month, along with a detailed account of this issue.... Who & What Is Israel?

Ninth Scribe

[جوري]

Please if you compare the modern day thinkers who support my theory compared to yours, my modern day thinkers probably have millions of IQ points higher..

Do you have DNA evidence of that readily available? lol

Please... your in the same bathc of men who think the mooon landing was a conspiracy.

Ok! whatever tickles your fancy ;) ..........

on a seperate note.... tis a beautiful day out in NY... why not take your family out to central park?

[Ninth_Scribe]

Right, uniting against who? I thought that happned in '48, and all the other wars.

Winning a handful of battles is not equal to winning a war... and you are asking for one. Purest Ambrosia is right, you know. All your technology and weaponry will lay waste to the lands... Israel included! You can hold that over some of their heads. But not all of them.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

on a seperate note.... tis a beautiful day out in NY... why not take your family out to central park?

It's really nice out here on Cape Cod too. And I finally have a weekend off. Think I'll take your advice and enjoy this one.

Ninth Scribe

[ManchesterFolk]

Do you have DNA evidence of that readily available? lol

DNA evidence on IQ tests? :rollseyes

Did you tell them the truth? That they are being asked to leave their peaceful existence to go to this new Israel, to be used in a battle they did not create, for a land they will never have sovereignty of? I mean, this is the offer?

What on earth are you talking about. Muslims if democratically elected can have sovreinty over Israel. You don't seem to be able to put together that Muslims serve in Israel's congress, and hold high positions in many branches. A luxury, non-Muslims are given in very FEW arab countries.

[Andaraawus]

Shalom , Therebe,

The general view is that the Moshiach will not just redeem the children of Israel, he will redeem mankind from meaninglessness, and teach the purpose of life to the universe, in otherwords he will come for the whole of mankind. not just exclusively for the children of Israel. Brother i am telling you he has already been! Dont miss the last train! He was Muhammad saws. The description fits. I lay you another topic alongside the ones we have going. You give us a description of the Moshiach and we will match it with the description of Muhammad peace be upon him.

[Andaraawus]

Sholam ,

Just picking up on another point>

The real question is why Muslims are so infurated over the Jews 'conquering' the land, when in fact it has been conquered by Muslims before, and it has been many times over and over again. Especially since Jewish culture thirved in the area so in reality it was "taken back".

As far as i know there was no Jews in "Yisraa'el" (Canaan btw) when it was conquered by the Muslims! Jews were exiled by the Christians and the Christians were using the temple of Solomon as a garbage dump! It was the Muslims who cleaned it up and then later allowed the Jews back home.
And yes i said back home! I never deny the Jews right to live there! i just deny Israel to be a land or a state as the posts beginning of this thread demonstrated.

[Andaraawus]

I think a day trip is good for all of us. I dont intend for this dialouge to go down the wrong way, im glad the ideas basically to chill out was suggested ...good move P.A.

G-d willing we will get back to this in some time, i got to recheck the whole of this thread to remember where i was at!, i having been trying the forum for a couple of days and it was like it didnt exist anymore. anyways im glad its back up, however it looks slightly differnt? and less features? whats happened?

[جوري]

DNA evidence on IQ tests? :rollseyes
.

You aren't particularly familiar with sarcasm?
either way on one of the recent issues of NEJM a discussion of " GAP-43 gene" which makes for super brainy mice... There is of course an equivlant of that in human so Yes, even DNA can determine your IQ level or lackthereof since you missed the point entirely!

[ManchesterFolk]

He was Muhammad saws. The description fits.

Which of the prophecys did Muhammod full that would convince Jews? I studied many religions and I don't believe he fufiled what Jewish holy scriptured deem as what needed to qualify.

[Andaraawus]

The challenge was for him to give the description of the promised Messiah. and then i would expound on that description. btw you have to give references thereby !

Mr m
You wouldnt happen to be a Jew yourself would you,? i know that they have a heavy community in Manchester.

[therebbe]

I believe Manchesterfolk said he believed in G-d, but not organized religion a little while back, I remember reading him saying it somewhere. Correct me if I am wrong Manchester.

Anyway, I am curious how Mohammad, can be considered Moshiach. Exactly what did he accomplish which would fufil the requirements to be.

[Andaraawus]

You seem hesitant to give a description of the Moshiach. ? what do you have to lose? your Judaism? Dont be so scared of the truth my brother.

[therebbe]

You seem hesitant to give a description of the Moshiach. ? what do you have to lose? your Judaism? Dont be so scared of the truth my brother.

Hesitant of what? Are you asking for a description of the Moshiach? If so, then just spill it...

Did Mohammad rebuild the third temple, and restore the animal sacrifices to them?

[Andaraawus]

Shalom Thereby

Yes please give a description.

Did Mohammad rebuild the third temple, and restore the animal sacrifices to them?

Consider these facts:

1. The first temple was buillt by Sulayman in 961-922BCE and then is destroyed in 587BCE by Nebuchadnezzar.

2. The second temple is built in 515BCE by the Jews after exile and then is destroyed by Titus in 70CE (which Christ predicted).

3. The third temple is sitting right unde your nose right now but yet you dont recognize it.The third temple was built due to Muhammad's night miraj, had it never happened the Muslims would have never built the third temple there.

[جوري]

who was this written of according to Judiasm?
"HIKKOMAMITTAQIM VIKULLO MAHAMADDIM ZEHDUDIVEZEH RAAI BENUTS YARUSHALAM." "His mouth is most sweet: yea he is Muhammad the great. This is my beloved and this is my friend, O' daughter of Jerusalem."

(Songs of Solomon 5:16)

[Andaraawus]

Aslo read this:

Masjid ul Aqsa is the reconstructed Third Temple.

One of the highest aspirations of _today's_ Israeli government is to build the "Third Temple" (the third renovation of Solomon's temple which has been destroyed twice before in history), there is only one issue, the House of prayer "Masjid-ul-Aqsa" now stands in the same exact location.

First Temple in 960 BC, Solomon is believed to have erected it to house the Ark of the Covenant which his father, David, had brought to Jerusalem. The temple was burned to the ground by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

The Second Temple was consecrated in 515 BC, rebuilt by Herod in 20 BC and destroyed by Titus in 70 AD.

The Byzantine Christians used the area as a dump and it was in this state that a Muslim, Caliph Omar Ibn al-Khattab, found it. In 638 AD. he ordered the place cleaned and built a House of Prayers at the southern end of the sanctuary, the apparent Third Temple " Masjid-ul-Aqsa".



Masjid-ul-Aqsa was completed by Amir Abd ul Malik in 647 AD.

With these observations in mind, the question is , has another sect of Jews co-orchestrated the Job of building the Third Temple ? *Jews for Allah* . It is well documented that Israelis along side their ancestral brothers, the Arabs, participated in the construction of Masjid-ul-Aqsa.

For example, Ka'ab al-Ahbar, a Yemenite Jew who converted to Islam was a co-engineer in the construction. [Al-Tabari, The History of al-Tabari, Vol XII]

Furthermore, it would have been impossible to clean the area containing decades of Byzantine litter and build this Holy Temple in only 10 years (no electricity), without the cooperation and assistance of the thousands of Jews in Jerusalem.

The inhabitants of Israel left the Temple of Solomon a pile of rubble and garbage for almost (Six Hundred Years, nearly 10 generations of Israelis) 70 AD -to- 647 AD, until it was finally beautifully restored by the unity of Jews and ancestral brothers of Jews, the Muslims.

Muslims do not claim to worship a different God than the Jewish God, in fact, just the opposite, Muslims declare they worship the God of Abraham, hence the Masjid-ul-Aqsa is in fact the restoration of the Temple Mount by direct descendants of Prophet Abraham.

What's more, during one of the Crusades, the Crusaders thought the Masjid-ul-Aqsa was Solomon's temple and put a cross on it! If they had known that it was a Muslim temple, they would have torn it down, but it still stands.

Further proof that Muslims have rebuilt the Temple Mount is that there are no idols in the current place of worship, there are no pictures, the prayers are preformed the way Jews used to pray, and the prayers are made directly to the Creator of Abraham with no intercessors.

The Jews do not have to mourn or drop another tear, the Modern Temple has also been rebuilt to include inscriptions to counter the Trinity of Christianity from our Holy Site:

the New Temple Mount was an answer to and a denial of the attractions of Christianity and its Scriptures, providing the Faithful with arguments to be used against Christian theology. The inscriptions are seven hundred and thirty-four feet long in all, amongst the lengthiest inscriptions in the world.

The inscriptions are as follows:

Inner Face: South Wall. In the name of God the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no God but God alone; he has no co-partner. He is the Kingship and His the praise. He giveth life and He causeth to die, and He hath power over everything.

South-East Wall. Verily God and His angels pronounce blessing upon the Prophet. O ye who have pronounced blessings upon Him and give Him the salutation of peace. O, People of the Book (i.e. the Jews and Christians, always referred to as such by the Muslims -Ed.) do not go beyond the bounds in your religion and do not say about Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is a messenger of God and His word which he cast upon Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe only in God and of his messenger, but do not say "Three" (Trinity) and it will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His glory that he should have a son.

North Wall. The Messiah will not deny to be in the service of God nor will the angels who stand in his presence. O God; pray upon Thy messenger "the servant Jesus - (N-W Wall) the son of Mary and peace be upon him the day of his birth, the day of his death and the day of his being raised alive." That is Jesus, son of Mary - a statement concerning which YOU are in doubt. It is not for God to take for Himself any offspring, glory be to Him.

West Wall. God bears witness that there is no God but Him, likewise the angels and the people possessed of knowledge (S-W WALL) - Upholding justice. There is no God but He, the Almighty and All wise. Verily, the religion in God's sight is Islam.

Outer Face: West and North-West Walls. In the name of God the Merciful and Compassionate. There is no God but God alone. Praise be to God who hath not taken to himself offspring. To Him there has never been any person in the sovereignty. Mohammed is the messenger of God, may God pray upon Him and accept his intercession.

Praise be God who has not taken unto himself a son and who has no partner in sovereignty nor has He any protector on account of weakness.

Islam has a History of Restoring ancient Temples and preserving current Houses of Worship as taught in Islam:

In the time of the caliph 'Umar, certain Muslims had usurped a piece of land belonging to a Jew, and had constructed a mosque on the site. Learning the news, the caliph ordered the demolition of the mosque and the restoration of the land to the Jews.

There are currently thousands of Jews and hundreds of Synagogues in Muslim countries, dating over a 1,000 years old and Preserved in tact to this day, including the dozens of Temples kept in tact in Israel for the past millennium and a half while Muslims were responsible for Israel, if they were in ruble as the Romans had left the Temple Mount, the Muslims would have restored them to houses of worship as was done to the Temple of Solomon.

According to M S M Saifullah, Another Temple restored in history is one built by Prophet Abraham, the Ka'bah:



These are just two of Temples we observe to be restored, we conclude that a further study needs to be set forth to discover other Temples of God brought back to life by the children of Abraham, Muslims.

In Conclusion, attempts to destroy the Masjid ul Aqsa to (re~re-build another House of Worship is not an act of God, but rather an act of pride, egotism, and nationalism, and would severely polarize the nearly 1.5 Billion Muslims with the other children of Abraham. Rather than plotting against Masjid ul Aqsa, Jews need to be thankful to God for sending our ancestral brothers to restore the ancient Temples, which laid in ruins for centuries under Israeli control.

[therebbe]

The third temple is sitting right unde your nose right now but yet you dont recognize it.The third temple was built due to Muhammad's night miraj, had it never happened the Muslims would have never built the third temple there.

The awnser is no. The Mosque on the Temple mount is not the third temple. Muhammod did not build it. And there are not ritual animal sacrifices done on the Mount. Therefore the Moshiach has not come.

who was this written of according to Judiasm?
"HIKKOMAMITTAQIM VIKULLO MAHAMADDIM ZEHDUDIVEZEH RAAI BENUTS YARUSHALAM." "His mouth is most sweet: yea he is Muhammad the great. This is my beloved and this is my friend, O' daughter of Jerusalem."

(Songs of Solomon 5:16)

False. Misquoted Verse. Translated Incorrectly.



5:6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had turned away, and was gone. My soul failed me when he spoke. I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

ו פָּתַחְתִּי אֲנִי לְדוֹדִי, וְדוֹדִי חָמַק עָבָר; נַפְשִׁי, יָצְאָה בְדַבְּרוֹ--בִּקַּשְׁתִּיהוּ וְלֹא מְצָאתִיהוּ, קְרָאתִיו וְלֹא עָנָנִי.
________________________________________

Please give me the respect I deserve as someone who is not naive enough to be dumb and actually take "Jews for Allah" as fact. The post you made is riddled with contradictions and misquotations. It is absolutly pathetic. Makes me think if the writer was sober when writing it.

[جوري]

wow mashallah I loved your post... if I can give you any more repute points I would but I have used all my allowances for the evening :cry:... this is an amazing piece of religious history.

[Andaraawus]

I see you have been around a bit - well the temple has been built three times , i think youre waiting for the fourth temple so have a nice wait.

[جوري]

The awnser is no. The Mosque on the Temple mount is not the third temple. Muhammod did not build it. And there are not ritual animal sacrifices done on the Mount. Therefore the Moshiach has not come.



False. Misquoted Verse. Translated Incorrectly.



5:6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had turned away, and was gone. My soul failed me when he spoke. I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer.

ו פָּתַחְתִּי אֲנִי לְדוֹדִי, וְדוֹדִי חָמַק עָבָר; נַפְשִׁי, יָצְאָה בְדַבְּרוֹ--בִּקַּשְׁתִּיהוּ וְלֹא מְצָאתִיהוּ, קְרָאתִיו וְלֹא עָנָנִי.
________________________________________

Please give me the respect I deserve as someone who is not naive enough to be dumb and actually take "Jews for Allah" as fact. The post you made is riddled with contradictions and misquotations. It is absolutly pathetic. Makes me think if the writer was sober when writing it.

you gave me 5:6 not 5:16 according to my google search.... either way it is inconsequential to me... you get so fired up when I sense you could come so close to being a Muslim if you'd open your mind a bit... you made it all the way to this forum...... it must mean something? ....... eh what can one do... I wish you the best!

[جوري]

I wonder how the Jews view Herod? do they also believe in John the baptist? Yahya? Herod's daughter Salome asked for the head of John the baptist as a wedding gift... she was to be wed to her uncle. Yahya opposed the incestual affair and as a result =(

1520/24 by Andrea Solario......... little bit of art history which is a hobby of mine...

Salomé with the Head of John the Baptist, painted circa 1515 (Galleria Doria Pamphilj, Rome)

Discliamer: Islam forbids the depiction of angels, prophets or holy figures in paintings

[Andaraawus]

yeh P>a i want allowed to spread the rep either ..

but thanks - though its not mine> Therebe is a little mad because i copied and pasted it from Jews for Allah. Ah well.

Brother - you have some time to think about it- you still havent given a description of the redeemer of mankind.

[Andaraawus]

Was she a Jew???

[جوري]

"inaka lan tahdi mann a7babt lakina Allaha yahdi mann yacha2."
only God Guides whom he wills to the path of righteousness....
Andarrwus, were you Jewish before? My great uncle was married to a Jewess from morocco which is where he was from as well, but she never converted, which was a shame... I am curious how you became Muslim or if you were born one? if you did revert, did you post your story under the reverts section? I am eager to learn things from your perspectve pre/post Islam.....
wasalaam

[جوري]

Was she a Jew???

oh yeah salome was Jewish....... oscar wilde wanted to make a play about her but was forbidden from doing so... the brits stated they had a law against depicting biblical characters on stage... so he did it in France... this was all about a hundred years ago... the world has taken a dive into insolence since.... as people have revrence for no one anymore :heated:

[therebbe]

you gave me 5:6 not 5:16 according to my google search.... either way it is inconsequential to me... you get so fired up when I sense you could come so close to being a Muslim if you'd open your mind a bit... you made it all the way to this forum...... it must mean something? ....... eh what can one do... I wish you the best!

5:16 His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

טז חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלָם.

I see you have been around a bit - well the temple has been built three times , i think youre waiting for the fourth temple so have a nice wait.

I'm sorry but it has not. The Mosque on the Mount has none of the requirements for the Temple, and it accomplishes none of the things that must be accomplished in it. Like sacrifices. Therefore Muhommad did not build the third temple, therefore Muhommod i another of hundreds of people to claim they were Moshiach and be false.

But believe whatever you wish. I'm not stopping you.

[جوري]

5:16 His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

טז חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלָם.
]

Yes agreed that is the proper translation!....

[
I'm sorry but it has not. The Mosque on the Mount has none of the requirements for the Temple, and it accomplishes none of the things that must be accomplished in it. Like sacrifices. Therefore Muhommad did not build the third temple, therefore Muhommod i another of hundreds of people to claim they were Moshiach and be false.

But believe whatever you wish. I'm not stopping you.

Same goes for you!
peace and to all a good night.....

[Andaraawus]

Salam,

I was one generation away from being Jewish. Had my mother had stayed in Cyprus i probaly would have been. However she came here and became a Jehovahs witness. I embraced Islam four years ago. and i have a long unfinished document on why i embrced Islam that some people have been waiting two years for. I was actually thinking of being a Jew due to my heritage, infact that was one of the many reasons which made me look at Islam. insha'Allah i will post my account another day. thanks and wasalams

[جوري]

great can't wait inshallah........
fi aman illah
gnight

[Andaraawus]

מַחֲמַדִּים there we have it Machmudim!

[therebbe]

מַחֲמַדִּים there we have it Machmudim!

Machmaddim = altogether lovely

_____


Song of Songs 5:16 "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Problem:

• The underlined word is the Hebrew Machmaddim. Moslems claim that this word is a reference to Muhammad for two reasons,The word Machmad (singular of Machmaddim) sounds a bit like the name Muhammad
• The word Machmad means The praised one (i.e. the one worthy of praise); this, they assert, must be Muhammad!

Solution:

1. The logic of the assertion that the word Machmad is Muhammad because the two words sound a bit similar is somewhat specious. The name John sounds a bit like the Arabic Jinn, but there is no connection between the two. Similarly a connection on the grounds that the word means "the praised one" falls short of a guaranteed logical link; has only one person in the world ever been praised?
2. The context of the passage identifies the person described as Machmad as someone in the time of Solomon (Song 3:11) who is loved by a Shulamite (Song 6:13). He is red-haired (Song 5:10). None of these descriptions fits Muhammad who never visited Shunem in his life.
3. A search of all the occurrences of the word Machmad in the Bible shows that the word has nothing to do with praise. It simply refers to whatever is desirable for whatever reason and is derived from the root chamad which means desire.
4. If one is to accept that the word Machmad refers to Muhammad then one should look at all the occurrences of that word. When one does this one can see why only the occurrence in the Song of Solomon is cited by Moslems. The others tell one that Machmad was destroyed (2 Chron. 36:19), was to be laid waste (Isa. 64:10-11), has been taken captive by an enemy (Lam. 1:10), has been traded for food (Lam. 1:11), has been slain by God (Lam. 2:4; Hos. 9:16), has been removed by G-d (Ezek. 24:16), is to be profaned by God (Ezek. 24:21), is to be buried in nettles (Hos. 9:6) and been carried away by pagans into their temples (Joel 3:5). Even an unkind person would not attribute all these things to Muhammad.

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/song5v16.html

[جوري]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...25168870785121
This is really good.. Dr. Ahmed deedat was brilliant.. may Allah receive him in his heavens and have mercy on his soul....... He goes into such details on names, their derivatives... how they are lost in the translation...... I don't think I can write anything here that will overshadow this video......

P.S on a side note..... john even if it sounds like Jinn the meaning of the word is what matters... john is from Yohanna (yahya) People just like to add a J to everything here....... yousef becomes joseph... yasmine becomes jasmine etc etc

Jinn litterally means that which can't be seen since Jinns are hidden from us..... it is used to also describe someone who is possessed by something unseen like Majnoon although using the word Majnoon in general is understood to be crazy in every day tongue.... and another derivative is the word Janna or paradise...again that which is hidden from sight.... many different spins.... many are the ways I can use the same word to describe something horrible (jinn) someone crazy (majnoon) or something wonderful (janna) heaven in different situations, and in different passages..... the importance is the solidity of the word in the native semitic tongue and how and why it is used........

carry that through...... I can use the word Moustapha which is also a name of the prophet mohammed PBUH (chosen), Istpha 'abidh... "chose his servant" I can use it "kama law kont austopheet lil'azhab" meaning as if I were chosen for suffering does that mean even though it is the name of the prophet (PBUH) that it applies to him, just because I used it in a different passage or statment that means something awful?.... ....

Again, same with annointed which was used to decribe Jesus PUBH.... annoited can be the lambs, or angels or your new sheets of laundry..... or even a regular Joe who was made king for a day by some perfuming ritual again does it mean the annoited Joe is Jesus?....... It is the context with which it is used and when it is used and why it was used that matters along with the meaning of the word itself..

one last note...... according to some Jews I know adding an
(em) to the end of a word denotes respect... not a spin on the words feel free to contradict that...... Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) imam Al3'almeen is {praise worthy} The name Muhammad etymologically means "the praised one" in Arabic..... sala Allah 3lyhi wasalaam, wa 3la Alih was7bih ajm3een inshallah.......
with that written.....I am tired and need to sign off...... I'd have done a better Job had I been more lucid, but why tamper with Dr Ahmed deedat perfection... he has done my home work for me....:smile:

[therebbe]

according to some Jews I know adding an
(em) to the end of a word denotes respect...

:giggling:

Okay, whatever they say I guess.... lol, do your Jewish friends know anything at all?

[Ninth_Scribe]

Shalom , Therebe,

The general view is that the Moshiach will not just redeem the children of Israel, he will redeem mankind from meaninglessness, and teach the purpose of life to the universe, in otherwords he will come for the whole of mankind. not just exclusively for the children of Israel. Brother i am telling you he has already been! Dont miss the last train! He was Muhammad saws. The description fits. I lay you another topic alongside the ones we have going. You give us a description of the Moshiach and we will match it with the description of Muhammad peace be upon him.

Thank you! I did post this same answer on another thread... that if the Moshiach (Mahdi, etc.) comes, no one gets "wiped out" and I stand by that understanding. The one who earns this title will be responsible for identifying and ordering all the tribes (of all the peoples) under one council and resolving every dispute to the satisfaction of everyone concerned. Justice will prevail.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

I'm sorry but it has not. The Mosque on the Mount has none of the requirements for the Temple, and it accomplishes none of the things that must be accomplished in it. Like sacrifices. Therefore Muhommad did not build the third temple, therefore Muhommod i another of hundreds of people to claim they were Moshiach and be false.

And I suppose the attempts to genetically engineer a red heifer would be counted as a legal sign from Hashem?

Don't think I haven't been watching.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

:giggling:

Okay, whatever they say I guess.... lol, do your Jewish friends know anything at all?

You shouldn't laugh. It's sad to see the teachings become so distorted. But then again. I'm still trying to figure out who told the Greeks that the word Nephilim meant 'giants'.

Ninth Scribe

[Andaraawus]

Plural of respect right , the plural of majesty like Elohim ... from Eloah

[Ninth_Scribe]

I do not think you understand what the exile was.

Really? Please consider the fact that Malak Paras (King of Persia) gave your people a decree to return... to the land of Judea and Jerusalem.

Ask yourself: Why didn't Ezra (Uzayr) petition a claim to the lands of the Israelites as well?

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

Ask yourself: Why didn't Ezra (Uzayr) petition a claim to the lands of the Israelites as well?

At that time they were there and an actual people. Now the remnants of these tribes have not once claimed they care for a seperate country. Even if they did... how would it solve any problem for Muslims? So now there are two jewish countries on the land of Israel. Both follow Torah, both probably have similar laws.

[Andaraawus]

land of Israel

We have already estabalished that Israel is not a land,please discontinue with that notion. You may be a child of Israel, and you may have a right to Canaan, but be just - the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

[Ulysses]

Did anyone see the recent evidence about our common human history that was found in the soil in Hadar region of Ethiopia earlier this year?

She is being called Lucy's Daughter http://www.economist.com/science/dis...ory_id=7939767

[Andaraawus]

No but i seen a brilliant documentary or two that are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

[Ninth_Scribe]

At that time they were there and an actual people. Now the remnants of these tribes have not once claimed they care for a seperate country. Even if they did... how would it solve any problem for Muslims? So now there are two jewish countries on the land of Israel. Both follow Torah, both probably have similar laws.

Wrong. He didn't petition for those lands because he was not entitled to them, per the Torah, and he did not have the authority to speak on behalf of the other tribes.

You're entitlement, according to the Torah, are the lands of Judah and Benjamin. You do not have the authority to speak on behalf of the other tribes. You do not have any legal claim to the lands of the 10 tribes. That land should be awarded to Palestine - so we can be done with all this dissent (blowing stuff up). I, for one, could never bring myself to recognize this new state you call Israel, and if the American people knew only half of what I know... well, enough said.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

Thank you! The law of all the people is "Honor your Ancestors" and there is a severe price to be paid for turning on your own bloodline. That is what caused the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem... both times!

Ninth Scribe

[Andaraawus]

That is what caused the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem... both times!

We cant forget the tribal killings of the two Jewish groups the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim. They dont seem to learn. Thank Allah my mother wasnt Jewish! I am considered a product of a posthumous victory to Hitler, due to my grandfather marrying a Christian women. Id rather call it a fortunate escape. Otherwise i may have been shackled under the smokescreens of Zionism.

[therebbe]

You're entitlement, according to the Torah, are the lands of Judah and Benjamin.

My entitlement is under the fact that I follow the Torah and G-d's law.

I, for one, could never bring myself to recognize this new state you call Israel, and if the American people knew only half of what I know... well, enough said.

If Americans thought like you we would give medals of honor to baby killers like Zarqawi.

the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

Yet, it was Yitzkhak's seed that was given Israel, and he was the one that was almost sacrificed.

We cant forget the tribal killings of the two Jewish groups the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim. They dont seem to learn.

I started laughing at the amound of knowledge you do not pocess about Jewish culture.

Want to talk about violence between to groups of the same religion? Look at Iraq.

[جوري]

Issac wasn't even born when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY son as per your bible. Ismael is his first born....... but we can keep at this till kingdom come!

Iraqis are now three times more likely to die of various things including ca and heart disease since the presence of Americans on their soil... so please don't come and speak of baby and people killers........ enough of this it is sickening


Study: 655,000 Iraqis Died Due to War
Oct 10 11:43 PM US/Eastern

By MALCOLM RITTER
AP Science Writer

NEW YORK

A controversial new study contends nearly 655,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, suggesting a far higher death toll than other estimates.

The timing of the survey's release, just a few weeks before the U.S. congressional elections, led one expert to call it "politics."

In the new study, researchers attempt to calculate how many more Iraqis have died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. Their conclusion, based on interviews of households and not a body count, is that about 600,000 died from violence, mostly gunfire. They also found a small increase in deaths from other causes like heart disease and cancer.

"Deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003," Dr. Gilbert Burnham, lead author of the study, said in a statement.

The study by Burnham, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and others is to be published Thursday on the Web site of The Lancet, a medical journal.

An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000. And at least one expert was skeptical of the new findings.

"They're almost certainly way too high," said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 election.

"This is not analysis, this is politics," Cordesman said.

The work updates an earlier Johns Hopkins study _ that one was released just before the November 2005 presidential election. At the time, the lead researcher, Les Roberts of Hopkins, said the timing was deliberate. Many of the same researchers were involved in the latest estimate.

Speaking of the new study, Burnham said the estimate was much higher than others because it was derived from a house-to-house survey rather than approaches that depend on body counts or media reports.

A private group called Iraqi Body Count, for example, says it has recorded about 44,000 to 49,000 civilian Iraqi deaths. But it notes that those totals are based on media reports, which it says probably overlook "many if not most civilian casualties."

For Burnham's study, researchers gathered data from a sample of 1,849 Iraqi households with a total of 12,801 residents from late May to early July. That sample was used to extrapolate the total figure. The estimate deals with deaths up to July.

The survey participants attributed about 31 percent of violent deaths to coalition forces.

Accurate death tolls have been difficult to obtain ever since the Iraq conflict began in March 2003. When top Iraqi political officials cite death numbers, they often refuse to say where the numbers came from.

The Health Ministry, which tallies civilian deaths, relies on reports from government hospitals and morgues. The Interior Ministry compiles its figures from police stations, while the Defense Ministry reports deaths only among army soldiers and insurgents killed in combat.

The United Nations keeps its own count, based largely on reports from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry.

The major funder of the new study was the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

___

On the Net:

The Lancet: http://www.thelancet.com

Iraqi Body Count: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[therebbe]

Issac wasn't even born when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY son as per your bible. Ismael is his first born....... but we can keep at this till kingdom come!

Oh really? UNTRUE.

When Isaac was about twenty-five years of age, the L-rd tried Abraham and commanded him to sacrifice his son. Abraham obeyed and took Isaac, with two of his servants, to the place the Lord should show him. On the third day, discerning the place (supposed to be mount Moriah), he took the wood as for a burn-offering, placed it on his son Isaac, and took fire in his hand and a knife. As they went together toward the mount, Isaac said, "We have the fire and the wood, but where is the sacrifice for the burnt-offering?". Abraham answered. "Dear son, G-d will provide a lamb for himself."
When they had arrived at the appointed place, Abraham put the wood in order, bound his beloved son Isaac as a sacrifice, and taking the knife, stretched forth his hand to kill him. But an angel of the L-rd prevented him doing so and provided another sacrifice (a sheep).

When Ishmael was about 16 years old, he angered Sarah by mocking Isaac and causing trouble, and she asked Abraham to send him away. G-d then later told Abraham to do so and he would take care of Ishmael. See:Genesis 21

At 16 Ismael when he was sent away, and Isaac was 25 when almost sacrificed.

[جوري]

very unlikely story considering the source... but you can believe that if you want! The rest of us know better!
the place of Ismael sacrifice was in where mecca is today... and the water that Hagar found zamzam started the migration of entire tribes to that region....

[therebbe]

very unlikely story considering the source... but you can believe that if you want! The rest of us know better!
the place of Ismael sacrifice was in where mecca is today... and the water that Hagar found zamzam started the migration of entire tribes to that region....

The source is the Bible.

You states the Bible says your opinion. I proved your wrong by pointing you to what the bible says. You can believe the Quran story if you want but don't claim the Bible makes your point when it obviously does not.

[Ninth_Scribe]

My entitlement is under the fact that I follow the Torah and G-d's law.

It is the Torah that DEFINES the tribal lands - you're the one who sees fit to blur it all into one land, as if you gracefully inherited them all. Yet there is no passage in the Torah stating you have that right. Inheritance laws would normally apply - if you didn't have a hand in destroying them, but...

If Americans thought like you we would give medals of honor to baby killers like Zarqawi.

Considering all this happy-joy can be traced directly to Palestine, I wouldn't talk. Those who do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it and I'm sick of seeing this play out like a broken record! Here we go again... for the third f--king time! Zarqawi's father was a Palestinian who fought against Israel. I often wonder what his life would have been like, had none of this ever happened?

Want to talk about violence between to groups of the same religion? Look at Iraq.

That can be fixed if I have any say in it.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

For the first sixty years, the kings of Judah aimed at re-establishing their authority over the kingdom of the other ten tribes, so that there was a state of perpetual war between them. For the following eighty years, there was no open war between them. For the most part, they were in friendly alliance, co-operating against their common enemies, especially against Damascus. After the destruction of Israel, Judah continued to exist for about a century and a half until its final overthrow in (586 BCE) by Nebuzar-adan, who was captain of Nebuchadnezzar's body-guard (2 Kings 25:8-21), an event which also saw the destruction of the First Temple.

[جوري]

The source is the Bible.

You states the Bible says your opinion. I proved your wrong by pointing you to what the bible says. You can believe the Quran story if you want but don't claim the Bible makes your point when it obviously does not.

ha? I don't understand what you are trying to say here... besides if I am to use a "bible" I'd use the original bible of barnbas... not the man-made one that caters to your beliefs..... or at least read one in Aramiac or Arabic.. at that point not much would be lost in translation....
it really is inconsequential to me what you believe...
we will always have 3eed Al'adha
the eid of sacrifice, it will always be the start of pilgrimage for 1.4 billion Muslims........
whereas you can go chasing imaginary phantoms on mount Ararat, or Joesph's tomb in a nouvea town, or a sacrifical place that is not even historically accurate.........

[therebbe]

Very simple:

You say Issac wasn't even born when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY son as per your bible. Ismael is his first born....... but we can keep at this till kingdom come!

Then I say Wrong. And the continue to prove you wrong using the bible as my source.

[جوري]

your point being? one of us is wrong and frankly we way out number you... just last year alone there were 70 conversions from Judiasm to Islam in Israel alone!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...274735,00.html

you can continue to derdge up this point... or we simply can agree to disagree and call it a day... as I have more pressing things to attend to....
peace!

[therebbe]

one of us is wrong and frankly we way out number you...

Hahahahaha!!! That was So funny! Can't breathe laughing to hard! Do you realize that Judaism does not let you convert in 2 minutes like Islam... It takes around a year and many tim es people are discouraged...

Second... If you say Islam is right because you have 1 Billion people... then by your LOGIC Jesus was G-d because 2 BILLION people believe that.

So are we still playing the whole, majority believes this is right so it must be game?

[جوري]

2 billion xtians don't believe Jesus was the son of God as there are tons of different sects with varying understandings as different as can be....... research and learn........
Judiasm isn't the oldest Monothe religion... Islam is... and has been as long as there has been religion on earth......... I believe the early true Jews were Muslim.........
pls therebe I don't want to argue with you... it is futile... you believe what you will, and I what I will... whole point of this ad hominem... is that when you write of your beliefs... you should say according to Judiasm....... I'd be less cavalier about the amount of assertion I make... considering many others will/ can still prove you wrong using the same source you prescribe.... I have 3 different versions of the bible here... which one do I use to make a point?

[therebbe]

2 billion xtians don't believe Jesus was the son of God as there are tons of different sects with varying understandings as different as can be

All sects of Christianity believe that Jesus was the son of G-d. I think you should take a few comparative religion classes.

Judiasm isn't the oldest Monothe religion... Islam is... and has been as long as there has been religion on earth.........

Responding would make it seem that it is actually a legitamite argument. :giggling:

Jews who followed the Torah before Islam and the Quran were not Muslim. They claimed to be Jews, and followed Jewish law.

Whatever. Believe what you want.

I hope your faith does not come from (we are more than you) because if so, it shows how weak your faith is, because your draw it from numbers.

[جوري]

ummmmmm... no NOT all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God....Unitarians for instance reject the divinity of Jesus, but do recognize him (Jesus) as a great moral teacher.

Guess your thought processes isn't immaculate after all if I put a dent in that theory of yours?... I have studied theology extensively, and think it is very important to research before you write... lest someone want you to back up your claims........
peace

[Keltoi]

Making a numbers argument is sort of strange in the context of talking to a Jew, since they have been a minority in every country they inhabited before the return to Israel. Not that I'm picking sides here or anything, but that argument seemed slightly odd in the context of the conversation.

[Keltoi]

ummmmmm... no NOT all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God....Unitarians for instance reject the divinity of Jesus, but do recognize him (Jesus) as a great moral teacher.

Guess your thought processes isn't immaculate after all if I put a dent in that theory of yours?... I have studied theology extensively, and think it is very important to research before you write... lest someone want you to back up your claims........
peace

There are the odd rebellious sect in any religion, but the whole concept of Christianity is based on the belief that Jesus Christ formed a new covenant and is the Son of God.

[Ninth_Scribe]

There are the odd rebellious sect in any religion, but the whole concept of Christianity is based on the belief that Jesus Christ formed a new covenant and is the Son of God.

Constantine's records. He merged the records of Sol Invictus (Romanised version of the Persian Sun God, Mithras) with that of Jesus. His intention was to honor him... but you know what they say about good intentions?

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

Jews who followed the Torah before Islam and the Quran were not Muslim. They claimed to be Jews, and followed Jewish law.

Whatever. Believe what you want.

Oh great! A generational dispute :giggling:

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

ummmmmm... no NOT all Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God....Unitarians for instance reject the divinity of Jesus, but do recognize him (Jesus) as a great moral teacher.

Right... and how many of the 2 billion Christians are unitairans again?

[جوري]

Good come back for having your foot in your mouth? touche

[therebbe]

Good come back for having your foot in your mouth? touche

Unitarianism rejects Christian beliefs and decrees. Therefore, can they be considered Christians?

[جوري]

They seem to think they are....... and I believe they are not the only sect to believe in Jesus as a great moral teacher instead of a son to God.
... I just can't remember the others right off the bat now without looking it up........
I have no problems with Christians not recognizing some of their own as non-Christians... it really doesn't affect me one way or the other.... it is something between them and God...... and them and whomever rounds up numbers for stats!

[therebbe]

and them and whomever rounds up numbers for stats!

The point I was making is that, saying someone is right because a majority agrees with them is nonsense, and an argument that shows lack of knowledge.

[جوري]

Great we'll have to take that illuminated statement and apply it to the Unitarians who seem to "reject" Christian faith and instead of labeling them as "odd rebellious" or "are they considered Christians?" to possibly they are the only right group while the rest of Christianity is blinded.... since just because they don't agree with the majority shouldn't make them wrong... after all it is nonsensical and shows lack of knowledge.....
thanks for the double edged hypocrisy... should two wrong statements be allowed to nullify each other?

[therebbe]

I'm not saying they are right or wrong. I am saying that there are over two billion Christians on earth so if we use your logic, then Christianity is the correct religion. Which is why I label that logic ridiculous. The fact that they are right or wrong cannot be furthest from the point.

[جوري]

The point of assertion is, only one of us can be right! and well people leaving Judiasm for Islam truly speaks for itself.......There is nothing clandestine about Islam that it should take a year and have people be discouraged... why the exclusive rights to God? if people know what they want and have done their home work why deny them? if that is your vantage point........ this sort of reminds me Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov, aka Lenin ... keeping religion to himself as he was a Jew, while supporting if not forcing liberally atheism........... sending people astray doesn't guarantee one exclusive rights to heaven...... whether "chosen" or not!

[therebbe]

The point of assertion is , only one of us can be right! and well people leaving Judiasm for Islam truly speaks for itself.......

In reality, there are not that many. Second, people even though discourages have really no punishment that Jews will carry out against Muslims, while in Islam you are condemned to death if you convert.

Another thing to think about is that, there are Muslims who do in fact convert to Christianity, many in Asia, therefore is Christianity right.

If you place your belief and argument in numbers, I am sorry but it has little validity.

By the way, there is actually a former Muslim of Egyption descent who goes to my Shul and converted to Judaism. He waited over 1 year and a month before the Rabbi's finally let him convert, after he proved his intentions were real and he wanted to take on the greater responsbility of following all of G-d's laws, not the ones prescribed to gentiles. But that is a different story all together.

why the exclusive rights to God?

We believe there are other paths to find G-d. We just follow all of his laws. If you were not born a Jew, I believe Islam is a correct alternative for worship (according to Judaism). We have no beef with you guys. G-d may have very well had a factor in creating a monotheistic religion like Islam so all the pagan gentiles would become monothiestic gentiles... who know!

I find it fascinating that Muslims that follow Islam entirly are following the exact laws G-d told the Non-Jews of the world to follow! Interesting that Muslims are following the laws that the Torah prescribes for gentiles to follow.

[جوري]

we have all seen the law against apostacy in Judiasm posted just a few threads ago....

as for the rest... it is just dragging and getting really silly!

[Andaraawus]

I find it fascinating that Muslims that follow Islam entirly are following the exact laws G-d told the Non-Jews of the world to follow! Interesting that Muslims are following the laws that the Torah prescribes for gentiles to follow.

So G-d commanded the "gentiles" to be circumcised?
To sacrifice animals?
to fast?
to wash before prayers?
to take shoes of before entering a holy place?
not to eat swine?

some of the only differnces in law between Islam and Judaism is that we are allowed to eat camel meat and we can wash the patch of our clothes three times when a drop of urine falls on them, whilst Jews cut that patch of, Islam saves the difficulty of destroying clothes. neithe do we lock our women in rooms when its menustration time, we can touch our women in that time, kiss them but not go onto them, and women are allowed to touch the Qur'an when pure. A jewish woman is not allowed to touch the Torah at all, pure or unpure.

----- by the way since the coming of the moshiac all noahdic law was abrogated! before a non Israelite could walk the way of Noah and attain paradise but now the redeemer of humanity has been, mankind is obliged to follow him, if they want the paradise.

[Andaraawus]

and i would like to mention that we are like ten subjects away from the orginal , over the next week i hope to root through every page here on this thread and bring it right back .... G-d willing

[Ninth_Scribe]

For the first sixty years, the kings of Judah aimed at re-establishing their authority over the kingdom of the other ten tribes, so that there was a state of perpetual war between them. For the following eighty years, there was no open war between them. For the most part, they were in friendly alliance, co-operating against their common enemies, especially against Damascus. After the destruction of Israel, Judah continued to exist for about a century and a half until its final overthrow in (586 BCE) by Nebuzar-adan, who was captain of Nebuchadnezzar's body-guard (2 Kings 25:8-21), an event which also saw the destruction of the First Temple.

My records indicate that Judea profited greatly from the destruction of Israel, but some things never change. Once they reached a particular point in time where their wealth deceived them, they failed to pay tribute as they had AGREED to, and were attacked because of that.

Tribute, by the way... was owed and always will be. Rulership of a kingdom does not give your family autonomy, it gives you added responsibility. Nehemiah knew this, which is why he put a stop to the princes who were taxing the people out of their lands.

Should Judea once again bear the responsibility of Jerusalem, it would serve you well to keep this in mind. It is a responsibility. And this time around, Iraq has been given equal collateral to insure these responsibilities are being met.

Ninth Scribe

[therebbe]

My records indicate that Judea profited greatly from the destruction of Israel, but some things never change.

Can you elaborate on these records you have?

[Ninth_Scribe]

Can you elaborate on these records you have?

Certainly. Record summary:

In the years following the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 B.C.E., cities in the southern kingdom of Judea began to prosper. They not only expanded, but the quality of architecture and urban planning improved enormously. Archaeological evidence suggests significant social stratification, accumulation of wealth, and a sharp increase in writing. The luxury trade from Arabia continued and by all accounts, Judea greatly profited. This improved economic climate captured the attention of Assyria, where Sargon II and his successor Sennacherib expected to receive handsome tributes of gold and spices from their vassal Judea. For several years, the memory of the Israelite deportation and Samaria's fall sufficiently motivated Judea to follow through with these payments.

Around 700 B.C.E., however, King Hezekiah of Judea grew increasingly recalcitrant about paying tribute. The prophet Isaiah condemned the tributary relationship with Assyria, and the Bible describes how Isaiah won the king's ear (2 Kings 19). As a result, Hezekiah flatly refused to continue paying tribute to Assyria and influenced the neighboring Philistine city-state of Ekron to follow suit.

Source: http://www.jewishhistory.com/jh.php?...n_attack_judea

There are other records available besides this summary version. Please don't confuse the words challenge with attack in these issues.

Also, please note this record does not admit the passage I included earlier that indicated Judea sought Assyria's protection from the king of Israel, thereby acknowledging tribute was due and agreed upon.

Ninth Scribe

[Ninth_Scribe]

Let me ask you, if 11 sons die, and the 12th remains, does the 12 not get the property of the land they all lived on?

I replied: Certainly, but not if the 12th son murdered the others to acquire it.

We were BOTH wrong. Inter-tribal inheritance is strictly forbidden in the Torah:

So shall no inheritance be removed from one tribe to another; for the tribes of the
children of Israel shall cleave each one to its own inheritance. Numbers 36:9

Judea does not have the legal right to claim Israelite land. The summary of this dispute between Palestine and Israel can be accessed here:

http://www.songofazrael.org/jihad/ji...sentation.html

Please remember though, this page attempts to reconcile differences between my world (a realm of thoughts and dreams) and this one I have been confronted with, hence the title: Jihad and the Queens DREAM.

Ninth Scribe