Apostasy in Christianity.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Since we have deeply discussed apostasy in Islam, what about apostasy in Christianity? What are the rulings for that?

[Hijrah]

Death.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

RIGHT! jus wanted to get it started. It is often believed that the Bible gives absolute religious freedom to everyone. Most of the Christians in the United States and the the West think that the freedom of choice and speech that they have comes originally from the Bible. The punishment of apostasy in Christianity is Death, and not only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put the death. Note even whole cities are to be destroyed.

[duskiness]

Death.

lol..no, there is no such a punishment. and some converts to Islams from christinity on this board are a good example to this. still alive and kicking :D
Because you have quoted Old Testament you may also ask about Jews. I doubt they are willing to kill any apostate... :)
It seems that this thread will soon change into "why christians don't obey Law of Old Testament"
...but if your question is about "ruling about apostasy", then the answer is: there is no punishment.
n.

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[Hijrah]

lol..no, there is no such a punishment. and some converts to Islams from christinity on this board are a good example to this. still alive and kicking :D
Because you have quoted Old Testament you may also ask about Jews. I doubt they are willing to kill any apostate... :)
It seems that this thread will soon change into "why christians don't obey Law of Old Testament"
...but if your question is about "ruling about apostasy", then the answer is: there is no punishment.
n.

Why though? Jesus did say in the NT that he did not come to break the laws of old but to reinforce them, u have to realize that these laws aren't established as of Today!

[جوري]

Duskiness
clearly you have not been to Egypt... you just don't know what the copts do there to their priests/nuns who convert to Islam......

[duskiness]

Jesus aslo said: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
As is see it, thats the way He fullfilled the Law. not by sticking to letter but reinforcing the spirit of it. It's sin to speak ill of anyone (for whatever reason you have..). Argumentum a minori ad maius - we shouldn't kill anyone for whatever reason we have to do this.

Duskiness
clearly you have not been to Egypt... you just don't know what the copts do there to their priests/nuns who convert to Islam......

i was there 2 times :D. but you're right, I know little about Copts. But i doubt' they have religious law that says they should kill apostates. If they have done something like this, i think it was agains their faith. We both know that people quite often don't listen to peace massege of their faith...

BUT!!!
..i was wrong to say there is no penalty
there is. It's EXCOMMUNICATION. You're not allowed to receive communion and attend Mass. But i doubt that apostates care for this. :)
so if you want you can convert to Christianity for a day and then turn back to Islam. No hurm will be done to you :D
n.

[glo]

Why though? Jesus did say in the NT that he did not come to break the laws of old but to reinforce them, u have to realize that these laws aren't established as of Today!

Actually, Jesus did not say he had come to reinforce the laws. Instead he said he had come to fulfill them:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18, King James Version)

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18, New International Version)

Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:17-18, New Living Translation)

When Jesus had died and been ressurected, he had done just that: fulfilled his purpose to bring God and his people in direct relationship again.
That means that those laws who God had put upon his people to keep them 'pure enough' (i.e. food laws, purity laws, sacrifices ...) became obsolete, and are replaced by Jesus' own words (see duskiness' post re murder etc.)

The most important quote of Jesus is possibly this:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40

You gotta love Jesus!:statisfie

I agree with duskiness: there is no punishment for apostasy in Christianity.
The judgement will be God's in the after-life!

Apostates are welcomed back into the Christian family, if they repent and wish to return.

Peace :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Jesus aslo said: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
n.

But that doesn't necessarily refer to apostates. It could refer to just killing or harming someone without a legit reason.
If you say this refers also to apostates then your contradicting yourself.

[wilberhum]

I’m a Christian Apostate.

I have never been charged with a criminal act and no one has threatened my life.

I guess I’m not the only one who promotes religious tolerance and freedom of religion and speach.

[rubiesand]

What happens in the afterlife to people who apostate from Christianity?

[glo]

What happens in the afterlife to people who apostate from Christianity?

They have chosen in life to live in separation from God, and will continue to do so in the after-life.

I do not know of any specifics off the top of my head, but I can look if you want me to.
There are some descriptions about 'what hell is like' in the Bible, but I don't think most Christians focus very much on that. Perhaps it is seen to be too punitive and threatening ... I don't know.

The important part of God's punishment is not the sulphur and hellfire, but to be separated from God. For us as believers that must be the worst punsihment possible!

But then you could argue that those who don't seek God in the first place, won't mind being separated from God at all ... :rollseyes

Peace

[Hijrah]

I’m a Christian Apostate.

I have never been charged with a criminal act and no one has threatened my life.

I guess I’m not the only one who promotes religious tolerance and freedom of religion and speach.

That really isn't the point first of all, How religion was is not how religion is.

apostasy, being punishable by death in Islam is not something that I am ashamed of and obviously here in the US it can't be carried out as a vigilante act either.

[Hijrah]

Actually, Jesus did not say he had come to reinforce the laws. Instead he said he had come to fulfill them:





When Jesus had died and been ressurected, he had done just that: fulfilled his purpose to bring God and his people in direct relationship again.
That means that those laws who God had put upon his people to keep them 'pure enough' (i.e. food laws, purity laws, sacrifices ...) became obsolete, and are replaced by Jesus' own words (see duskiness' post re murder etc.)

The most important quote of Jesus is possibly this:

You gotta love Jesus!:statisfie

I agree with duskiness: there is no punishment for apostasy in Christianity.
The judgement will be God's in the after-life!

Apostates are welcomed back into the Christian family, if they repent and wish to return.

Peace :)

In the second quote he said himself he did not come to abolish them

Fulfill?

–verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

[glo]

In the second quote he said himself he did not come to abolish them

Fulfill?

–verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

Yes, Jesus did not abolish/destroy/disregard the old laws ... they were God given and valid in their time!
But when Jesus completed his mission and his purpose with his death and resurrection, he completed/finished/satisfied/fulfilled them.

The old laws, which God had to put upon people, became obsolete/finished with/were brought to an end.
Jesus put an end to them, and instead started a New Covenant!

I don't expect you to believe what I believe. I am just trying to explain what I believe. :)

It is getting late, and I have to get some sleep.

Peace :)

[wilberhum]

They have chosen in life to live in separation from God, and will continue to do so in the after-life.

Why do you assume that apostasy is separation from god? :grumbling Apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith, not all religious faith. With the many religions, only one (Maybe none), can be correct. So apostasy could be the rejection of a false religion and acceptance of a true religion.

[Keltoi]

Why do you assume that apostasy is separation from god? :grumbling Apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith, not all religious faith. With the many religions, only one (Maybe none), can be correct. So apostasy could be the rejection of a false religion and acceptance of a true religion.

If I understood glo correctly, she was referring to the punishment for apostasy, which is excommunication(from the Catholic Church). If one goes to his grave without accepting Christ, then the "punishment" is much worse, which is separation from God. Personally, I believe that is Hell.

[wilberhum]

If I understood glo correctly, she was referring to the punishment for apostasy, which is excommunication(from the Catholic Church). If one goes to his grave without accepting Christ, then the "punishment" is much worse, which is separation from God. Personally, I believe that is Hell.

That might be true if Christ is god. What if Christ is not god?

[Keltoi]

That might be true if Christ is god. What if Christ is not god?

That is between you and your own religious convictions or lack of. I was making no judgement about your after-life, just responding to a discussion of religious belief.

[north_malaysian]

Because you have quoted Old Testament you may also ask about Jews. I doubt they are willing to kill any apostate... :)

n.

I think they have answered it in "question on judaism" thread ... and they said they dont kill Jewish apostates

[Hijrah]

Yes, Jesus did not abolish/destroy/disregard the old laws ... they were God given and valid in their time!
But when Jesus completed his mission and his purpose with his death and resurrection, he completed/finished/satisfied/fulfilled them.

The old laws, which God had to put upon people, became obsolete/finished with/were brought to an end.
Jesus put an end to them, and instead started a New Covenant!

I don't expect you to believe what I believe. I am just trying to explain what I believe. :)

It is getting late, and I have to get some sleep.

Peace :)

Very good, as explained in the definition of fulfilled he followed these commands.

[glo]

Why do you assume that apostasy is separation from god? :grumbling Apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith, not all religious faith. With the many religions, only one (Maybe none), can be correct. So apostasy could be the rejection of a false religion and acceptance of a true religion.

Hi Wilberhum

Sorry, if I offended you. :(
I am only representing the Christian perspective. Of course other faiths will have differing views.

Keltoi clarified what I meant very well:
"If one goes to his grave without accepting Christ, then the "punishment" is much worse, which is separation from God. Personally, I believe that is Hell."(Thank you, Keltoi!)

That might be true if Christ is god. What if Christ is not god?

Again, we Christians speak from a Christian perspective. If Christ was not God, then our faith would be false ...

Peace :)

[wilberhum]

Again, we Christians speak from a Christian perspective. If Christ was not God, then our faith would be false ...

My point exactly.

PS I was not offended in any shape or form. Just correcting what I concider an erronious assumption.

[InToTheRain]

Again, we Christians speak from a Christian perspective. If Christ was not God, then our faith would be false ...

Whoa! so your saying Jesus is God, and God died on the cross?

[duskiness]

Whoa! so your saying Jesus is God, and God died on the cross?

something like that :)
n.

[glo]

My point exactly.

PS I was not offended in any shape or form. Just correcting what I concider an erronious assumption.

LOL
That's alright then, Wilberhum.
It was this face that made me think I had offended you: :grumbling
(I know it's described as 'grumbling', but it looks more like an exploding head to me!) ;D

I suppose many things I say in this forum are based on the assumption (erronious or otherwise) that my faith is true ... but I am fully aware that not many people here share my perspective.:)

peace

[InToTheRain]

something like that :)
n.

I was sure even to the christians God is seen as an Eternal being, a bieng which existed before time and will exist forever...

If I where to ask you to describe God, how would you describe him?

[glo]

I was sure even to the christians God is seen as an Eternal being, a bieng which existed before time and will exist forever...

If I where to ask you to describe God, how would you describe him?

Well, this is how God describes himself:

"Remember this, fix it in mind,
take it to heart, you rebels.

Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.

I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please." (Isaiah 46:8-10)

and

"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son." (Revelation 21:6-7)

For further information on Jesus, please look here (You may remember the thread) http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...l-mankind.html
Peace :)

[duskiness]

I was sure even to the christians God is seen as an Eternal being, a bieng which existed before time and will exist forever...

I'm not sure...but it seems WnbSlaveOfAllah, that you haven't come across some basic christian doctrines..if i could recommend you, you could visit: religion facts about christianity (don't worry, it's nonchristian side) and check the part about doctrin (God, Trinity and Jesus); or re-jesus site (that's christian side, but very "open-minded")

back to your question:
Our God is eternal, but once in history one person of Trinity (=God) incarnated, that is became human (and still was fully God), was angry, hungry, suffered, died, and was resurrected. That's the very core of our faith.
even when i wasn't christian i felt drawn to Jesus. But today I feel somehow closer to God, knowing that He also suffered and died. It allows me (it's just my pov) to answer somewhow "suffering question".
I know it's not an answer sensu stricto! but...
When i go to church and see Jesus on the cross, i stop asking this question. It's looks to me, as if He was saying: "shhh child. You won't understand. But I went through it all. And you aslo will". And i surrender...

If I where to ask you to describe God, how would you describe him?

wise people when are asked this question, don't say anything. And that's also an answer :D
n.

ed: sp.

[Skillganon]

I think christian broter's & sisters has answered the Question best to their knowledge. So let's not go off-topic. Debate's can be started on another thread.