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sonz
10-03-2006, 11:22 AM
A new study, coauthored by political scientists - Carolyn M. Warner and Manfred W. Wenner - at Arizona State University and entitled "Religion and the Political Organization of Muslims in Europe," stated that the 15 million Muslims living in Europe today do not in any way pose a threat to the European culture or political system, according to Times of India.

The study findings challenge many analysts’ theories that emerged in the wake of September 11 attacks of the United States, warning against the impact of Muslims on European politics and policy based on the false assumption that a Muslim bloc would rise up to dominate European countries' foreign and domestic policies.

"Western fears and criticisms are partly based on serious ignorance of the characteristics of Islam and of the people in Europe who adhere to it," the study, which appeared in 'Perspectives on Politics,' a journal of the American Political Science Association (APSA), said.

The authors of the study also tackled the issue of immigration, saying that "religion has failed to be the unifying focal point of Muslims in Western Europe," as Muslim immigrants remain divided by ethnic differences in those states.

It also discussed the absence of organized structure in the majority Sunni religious hierarchy prevalent in Muslim communities in Europe.

The study also shed light on the fact that there are four different schools of law in Sunni Islam that co-exist and overlap.

"Islam manifests itself differently across and within cultures and societies," according to the study. The authors also pointed out the importance of considering "the inter-relationship of the various 'brands' of Islam with the country of origin and ethnicity of its members."

Analysts and Islamic scholars acknowledge that the biggest challenge facing Islam and the West today is how each side perceives the other, specially that recent years witnessed the spread of negative misconceptions about Islam that rose noticeably following September 11 attacks on the United States, which shaped many people’s opinion, establishing a false link between Muslims and terrorism.
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 04:21 PM
establishing a false link between Muslims and terrorism.
What is the link to terorism?
Reply

MTAFFI
10-03-2006, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by sonz
[B] establishing a false link between Muslims and terrorism.
I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.

my question is when will it all stop?

What must be done to be rid of these extreme views?
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aamirsaab
10-03-2006, 05:28 PM
:sl:
Muslims in Europe do not pose threat
I could've told you that. And i've only just started Uni.

:p
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Fishman
10-03-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.
:sl:
The KKK are some of the most evil people on Earth... and they are Christians.

Marxists and other communists have members who have commited numerous attrocities.

Hinduism has many extremist nationalist members in India. They tear down Masjids (Mosques), call for the expulsion of Muslims from India and commit many other crimes that have a suspicious resemblance to what Hitler liked.

I'm not saying that these religions are inherently violent, but that there is no connection between Islam and violence.

When people feel threatened or angry, they tend to get violent. Much of the Muslim world is starving, the US and Israel have caused many massacres and injustices, and there are many attacks on Muslims all over the world. How threatened and angry do you think Muslims feel?
:w:
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 05:51 PM
there is no connection between Islam and violence.
I think the article said there was no link between Muslims and terrorism.
Not the same thing. The issue in not what Islam says, it is what some Muslims do.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...AACBD4D291.htm

A high school teacher in France, who wrote an opinion piece in a French daily arguing that Islam is trying to force its vision on Europe is under police protection after receiving death threats, officials said on Friday.
One e-mail read: "You will never again be safe on this earth. One billion, 300 million Muslims are ready to kill you," he told Europe-1 radio on Friday.
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Muezzin
10-03-2006, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
A high school teacher in France, who wrote an opinion piece in a French daily arguing that Islam is trying to force its vision on Europe is under police protection after receiving death threats, officials said on Friday.
One e-mail read: "You will never again be safe on this earth. One billion, 300 million Muslims are ready to kill you," he told Europe-1 radio on Friday.
That's hate mail and there are laws against harassment, as there should be. However, it's obvious the idiot who wrote it does not speak for 'one billion, 200 million Muslims'. So please, either drop this line of discussion or start another thread, as it does not belong in this one.
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
That's hate mail and there are laws against harassment, as there should be. However, it's obvious the idiot who wrote it does not speak for 'one billion, 200 million Muslims'. So please, either drop this line of discussion or start another thread, as it does not belong in this one.
I think it is fully fitting for this thread. But that is just me being me.
I never said he represented 'one billion, 200 million Muslims', it was the
e-mailer that made that implication.
Reply

InToTheRain
10-03-2006, 07:08 PM
I think it is fully fitting for this thread. But that is just me being me.
I never said he represented 'one billion, 200 million Muslims', it was the
MEDIA that made that implication.
AY AY thats right.

It is the media which makes sure the word Terrorist is synonymous with Muslim and Islam.
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
AY AY thats right.

It is the media which makes sure the word Terrorist is synonymous with Muslim and Islam.
The only one that implicated Islam is you. :giggling:
Reply

snakelegs
10-03-2006, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by sonz
A new study, coauthored by political scientists - Carolyn M. Warner and Manfred W. Wenner - at Arizona State University and entitled "Religion and the Political Organization of Muslims in Europe," stated that the 15 million Muslims living in Europe today do not in any way pose a threat to the European culture or political system, according to Times of India.

The study findings challenge many analysts’ theories that emerged in the wake of September 11 attacks of the United States, warning against the impact of Muslims on European politics and policy based on the false assumption that a Muslim bloc would rise up to dominate European countries' foreign and domestic policies.

"Western fears and criticisms are partly based on serious ignorance of the characteristics of Islam and of the people in Europe who adhere to it," the study, which appeared in 'Perspectives on Politics,' a journal of the American Political Science Association (APSA), said.

The authors of the study also tackled the issue of immigration, saying that "religion has failed to be the unifying focal point of Muslims in Western Europe," as Muslim immigrants remain divided by ethnic differences in those states.

It also discussed the absence of organized structure in the majority Sunni religious hierarchy prevalent in Muslim communities in Europe.

The study also shed light on the fact that there are four different schools of law in Sunni Islam that co-exist and overlap.

"Islam manifests itself differently across and within cultures and societies," according to the study. The authors also pointed out the importance of considering "the inter-relationship of the various 'brands' of Islam with the country of origin and ethnicity of its members."

Analysts and Islamic scholars acknowledge that the biggest challenge facing Islam and the West today is how each side perceives the other, specially that recent years witnessed the spread of negative misconceptions about Islam that rose noticeably following September 11 attacks on the United States, which shaped many people’s opinion, establishing a false link between Muslims and terrorism.
the problem is not whether muslims constitute a real threat to europe, but whether they are percieved as being a real threat. there is indeed an anti-muslim backlash brewing in europe. it is largely due to the acts of a tiny minority of muslims - a couple of thousands of muslims doing violence at some protest, a van gogh murder, death threats, terrorist attacks,etc. completely overshadow many millions of completely peaceful muslims (who are not newsworthy cuz they're too boring).
i think some progressive europeans are going to be effected by this backlash also, as "the muslim issue" is going to be used more and more by conservative, xenophobic political parties to garner support. when there is enough fuel, a hitler type could emerge, fan the fire a little and take over, which would be a threat not only to muslims. (consider how many non-jews were murdered during the holocaust.)
there are some very serious cultural clash type problems also.
i also think that many europeans carry a fear of islam from history.
so yes - there is indeed a problem of perception, but this will continue as long as there are muslims who will feed the media by their actions.
i think the larger threat to muslims comes more from their fellow muslims than from the europeans.
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TheRightPathI
10-03-2006, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.

my question is when will it all stop?

What must be done to be rid of these extreme views?

Well, I'm offended. Please read Fishman's post and be enlightened.
Reply

wilberhum
10-03-2006, 07:37 PM
Snakelegs
i think the larger threat to muslims comes more from their fellow muslims than from the europeans.
Again we meet in agreement.
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Keltoi
10-03-2006, 07:47 PM
Perceptions are almost always more dangerous than realities. There is also a bit of reality in these perceptions. It wasn't a mass psychosis which saw seemingly ordinary Muslims blowing up trains in Spain and Great Britain. These violent acts in no way are a reflection of Islamic belief, but they are a catalyst in public perceptions.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-03-2006, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
What is the link to terorism?
did u jus come out the toilet after 20 years?

lol im sry i cudnt resist, i just cudnt, :giggling:
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mazed
did u jus come out the toilet after 20 years?

lol im sry i cudnt resist, i just cudnt, :giggling:
I quess the first time I noticed a terrorist is when I look behind me. :giggling:
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Torquemada
10-03-2006, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The KKK are some of the most evil people on Earth... and they are Christians.

Marxists and other communists have members who have commited numerous attrocities.

Hinduism has many extremist nationalist members in India. They tear down Masjids (Mosques), call for the expulsion of Muslims from India and commit many other crimes that have a suspicious resemblance to what Hitler liked.

I'm not saying that these religions are inherently violent, but that there is no connection between Islam and violence.

When people feel threatened or angry, they tend to get violent. Much of the Muslim world is starving, the US and Israel have caused many massacres and injustices, and there are many attacks on Muslims all over the world. How threatened and angry do you think Muslims feel?
:w:
Yes but there is one small problem. Name one of those religions leaders that don't condemn those acts and if they do condemn them and add a but to it. When the KKK burns someones house the Christian leaders come out and say these people are dispicable no questions asked. They don't say what these people did are wrong but you gotta understand why they did it. There is no understanding, what they did was wrong period. Also last time I checked the people that tend to blow themselves up aren't named Bob.
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Keltoi
10-03-2006, 08:27 PM
Pointing to other bad behavior doesn't justify your own bad behavior either.
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therebbe
10-03-2006, 08:30 PM
A new study, coauthored by political scientists - Carolyn M. Warner and Manfred W. Wenner - at Arizona State University
In other news, there is a study going on right now that in fact frogs can speak english, but do not have the vocals to pronounce the words.
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Keltoi
10-03-2006, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
In other news, there is a study going on right now that in fact frogs can speak english, but do not have the vocals to pronounce the words.
That is awewome! Can't wait for the full report.
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Fishman
10-03-2006, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That is awewome! Can't wait for the full report.
:sl:
LoFL...
:w:
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Fishman
10-03-2006, 08:52 PM
:sl:
Yes but there is one small problem. Name one of those religions leaders that don't condemn those acts and if they do condemn them and add a but to it. When the KKK burns someones house the Christian leaders come out and say these people are dispicable no questions asked. They don't say what these people did are wrong but you gotta understand why they did it. There is no understanding, what they did was wrong period.
What's wrong with adding a but? Are we all supposed to love America? If so, quite a lot of the world is guilty.

''The terrorists commit awful crimes, there's no doubt about it. They ruin the lives of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. But to be able to fix this problem, we must fix the root cause first, which is US foregin policy''. This is the main argument of the Muslims who condemn terrorism. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with understanding why terrorists do these things? If you don't understand a problem, how can you hope to solve it?
Also last time I checked the people that tend to blow themselves up aren't named Bob
Last time I checked, people who go around lynching and burning aren't named Hamid...
:w:
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Fishman
10-03-2006, 09:00 PM
:sl:
Why are you (Torquemada) named after a 15th century genocidal maniac, who liked to burn Muslims and Jews at the stake? If this is allowed, can I change my screen-name to Osama bin Laden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada
:w:
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 09:14 PM
Sonz,
Do you have a link to your post?
I found:
http://www.apsanet.org/imgtest/POPSep06WarnerWenner.pdf
Which seams to be the source that someone used to create there article.
In reading the article, it is quite long but interesting, I found the following:
Approximately 15 million Muslims live in Europe, and some of them have advocated creating an Islamic state there.
Timothy Garton Ash fears that European Muslims could be “radicalized by events in the Middle East” and that their numbers could soon reach a tenth of the European population.

The implication is that Muslims as a bloc will soon dominate the foreign and domestic policies of European states.
But one of the things that always concerns me is when the title of an article changes.
Muslims in Europe do not pose threat
Vis
Religion and the Political Organization of Muslims in Europe
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Torquemada
10-03-2006, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:

What's wrong with adding a but? Are we all supposed to love America? If so, quite a lot of the world is guilty.

''The terrorists commit awful crimes, there's no doubt about it. They ruin the lives of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. But to be able to fix this problem, we must fix the root cause first, which is US foregin policy''. This is the main argument of the Muslims who condemn terrorism. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with understanding why terrorists do these things? If you don't understand a problem, how can you hope to solve it?

Last time I checked, people who go around lynching and burning aren't named Hamid...
:w:
Why add a but? Why not just condemn? By the way when was the last lynching and burning by the KKK committed? I can tell you when the last suicide bombing was.
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Hawa
10-03-2006, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think the article said there was no link between Muslims and terrorism.
Not the same thing. The issue in not what Islam says, it is what some Muslims do.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...AACBD4D291.htm

A high school teacher in France, who wrote an opinion piece in a French daily arguing that Islam is trying to force its vision on Europe is under police protection after receiving death threats, officials said on Friday.
One e-mail read: "You will never again be safe on this earth. One billion, 300 million Muslims are ready to kill you," he told Europe-1 radio on Friday.

I musta missed the ceremony where we chose this individual to be our spokesperson.

I was under the impression that people came on LI to learn more about Islam, maybe even dispel their prejudices. It seems some of you..and you all know who you are, come here to engage in arguments (the same arguments might I add) day in day out..and for what?
You take so much pride in your narrow-mindedness, if truly muslims are evil, why on earth are you still here?

1 . Say : O disbelievers!

2 . I worship not that which ye worship ;

3 . Nor worship ye that which I worship .

4 . And I shall not worship that which ye worship .

5 . Nor will ye worship that which I worship .

6 . Unto you your religion , and unto me my religion . (Quran)


Do not come here speaking ill of muslims, you will not affect our views with the endless sea of propaganda and lies you bring here every so often , if you honestly believe muslims wish to harm you then I suggest you build yourself an underground bunker...

p.s if blood shedding bothers you so much why dont you speak up about the countless murders committed by your governments....just a suggestion..
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Torquemada
10-03-2006, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Why are you (Torquemada) named after a 15th century genocidal maniac, who liked to burn Muslims and Jews at the stake? If this is allowed, can I change my screen-name to Osama bin Laden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquemada
:w:
Nice catch of the name. I know exactly who Torquemada is and his role in the Spanish Inquisition was. The reason I chose this name is because of the movie History of the World Part I by Mel Brooks. The was a musical in it where he played Torquemada and it was funny. If you wanna change your name to bin Laden be my guess. I'm sure you have as much ties to al-queda as I have in the Holy See which is none.
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 09:29 PM
I was under the impression that people came on LI to learn more about Islam,
Some of us come here for debate. Myself included. That is why I stick to world Afairs and Comparative Religion.
Do not come here speaking ill of muslims
Do you find no Muslims that should be spoken ill about?
if truly muslims are evil, why on earth are you still here?
I still here because Muslims, as a whole, are not evil. Most are good people. Just like most Christians are good, most Jews are good, and yes, most agnostics are good. But all groups contain some bad.
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Hawa
10-03-2006, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Do you find no Muslims that should be spoken ill about?

Millions unfortunately, myself included, for not standing up for my religion ofcourse..
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Joe98
10-03-2006, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by sonz
15 million Muslims living in Europe today do not in any way pose a threat to the European culture........
Yes they do.

Muslims constantly get upset when Europeans follow their cultural traditions.

Children singing Christmas Carols comes immedaintly to mind.
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wilberhum
10-03-2006, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by sonz
15 million Muslims living in Europe today do not in any way pose a threat to the European culture........
Originally Posted by Joe98
Yes they do.

Muslims constantly get upset when Europeans follow their cultural traditions.

Children singing Christmas Carols comes immedaintly to mind.
Good pickup Joe. A large influx from any culture will change the culture.
Now that is not necessarly bad. In fact it can be good. But it surly does change the existing culture.
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KAding
10-03-2006, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by sonz
Muslims in Europe do not pose threat
<snip>
The authors of the study also tackled the issue of immigration, saying that "religion has failed to be the unifying focal point of Muslims in Western Europe," as Muslim immigrants remain divided by ethnic differences in those states.
Is this good or bad news for many Muslims on this board? This study seems to me to assert that Muslims are assimilating in non-Muslim societies and accepting non-Islamic rule, mainly because Islam does not appear to provide enough unity for all these Muslims to act towards a common goal.

To me this study provides some hope. It means that religious identity is not cast in stone, that people are not just 'Muslim'. We must try to move away from the us vs. them thinking on religion, which can cause severe social tension and division. People are more than just their etnicity or religion.
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rania2820
10-03-2006, 10:53 PM
ive could have told them that.muslims are peaceful people.but the world seems not want to believe it.
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therebbe
10-03-2006, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by rania2820
ive could have told them that.muslims are peaceful people.but the world seems not want to believe it.
Many radical Muslims who are a vocal minority seem to not want to believe it either.
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Muezzin
10-04-2006, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Yes they do.
Every single European Muslim poses a threat?

Muslims constantly get upset when Europeans follow their cultural traditions.

Children singing Christmas Carols comes immedaintly to mind.
There is nothing wrong with 'getting upset'.

There is a lot wrong with 'getting violent'. People who react violently should be dealt with as the law provides. I say this repeatedly and yet people still think Muslims don't condemn the bad eggs.
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Joe98
10-04-2006, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
There is nothing wrong with 'getting upset'.

Yes there is. A European country has been following a tradition for hundreds of years. A tradition that hurts nobody.

Muslims have no right to be upset.
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sonz
10-04-2006, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Is this good or bad news for many Muslims on this board? This study seems to me to assert that Muslims are assimilating in non-Muslim societies and accepting non-Islamic rule, mainly because Islam does not appear to provide enough unity for all these Muslims to act towards a common goal.
if u checked the recent polls, it shows that majority of the muslims want the shariah because they know that islam unifies them.

islam is the only religion that provides equality and sense of brotherhood

"The doctrine of brotherhood of Islam extends to all human beings, no matter what color, race or creed. Islam is the only religion which has been able to realize this doctrine in practice. Muslims wherever on the world they are will recognize each other as brothers." Mr. R. L. Mellema, Holland, Anthropologist, Writer and Scholar.
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Muezzin
10-04-2006, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Yes there is. A European country has been following a tradition for hundreds of years. A tradition that hurts nobody.
Yes.

Muslims have no right to be upset.
Everyone has a right to be upset about anything that they wish. That's democracy. If for example someone wants to be a complete butthead and complain about a good thing, they can and it is their right to, so long as they do nothing illegal. It's freedom of expression, association etc.

Now, whether or not Muslims should be upset is a different matter entirely.
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Fishman
10-04-2006, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Torquemada
Nice catch of the name. I know exactly who Torquemada is and his role in the Spanish Inquisition was. The reason I chose this name is because of the movie History of the World Part I by Mel Brooks. The was a musical in it where he played Torquemada and it was funny. If you wanna change your name to bin Laden be my guess. I'm sure you have as much ties to al-queda as I have in the Holy See which is none.
:sl:
I don't really want to be called Bin Laden. It's just that naming yourself after a person who slaughtered Muslims is sort of offensive. Without knowing your intention, it does kinda make people think that you are out to hurt Muslims. It's like the way prince Charles wore that Nazi uniform to a fancy dress party.
:w:
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Torquemada
10-04-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I don't really want to be called Bin Laden. It's just that naming yourself after a person who slaughtered Muslims is sort of offensive. Without knowing your intention, it does kinda make people think that you are out to hurt Muslims. It's like the way prince Charles wore that Nazi uniform to a fancy dress party.
:w:
Well it's being changed to Jimmy the Cricket
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Woodrow
10-04-2006, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Yes they do.

Muslims constantly get upset when Europeans follow their cultural traditions.

Children singing Christmas Carols comes immedaintly to mind.
Perhaps it is memories of collective guilt of when Christianity invaded Europe and replaced the culture of the inhabitants? Now I do agree with you that Muslims do follow different cultural standings, but those differences will not affect a countries culture unless people accept them. I believe Muslims living in Europe are more at risk of having their culture changed to match the European.
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Torquemada
10-04-2006, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Perhaps it is memories of collective guilt of when Christianity invaded Europe and replaced the culture of the inhabitants? Now I do agree with you that Muslims do follow different cultural standings, but those differences will not affect a countries culture unless people accept them. I believe Muslims living in Europe are more at risk of having their culture changed to match the European.
But those traditions weren't Chrisitan they were Pagan. December 25th started out as a pagan holiday that christians piggybacked on since noone truely knows when Jesus was born. On the other hand muslims did the same thing with the invasion of Spain and the subsequent Iberian rule. What do you think lead to the first Inquisition?
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duskiness
10-04-2006, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Perhaps it is memories of collective guilt of when Christianity invaded Europe and replaced the culture of the inhabitants?
What do you mean by "invading"? I'm not a native speaker but it sound like if someone had an army and forced those people by sword to belive in Christ. I could agree that it was a case it Lithuania, and Prussia, but nobody invaded Rome, Italy, Frnace, Spain, England, Austria, Germany, Balkans and so on...

I aslo hope that you use this term when speaking about Muslim's invasion on Spain, and Balkans..because there was an invading army for sure....

as far as "replacing local culture", then so many holidays, custums are rather a sign that not much was replaced...maybe religion :D
n.
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MTAFFI
10-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The KKK are some of the most evil people on Earth... and they are Christians.

Marxists and other communists have members who have commited numerous attrocities.

Hinduism has many extremist nationalist members in India. They tear down Masjids (Mosques), call for the expulsion of Muslims from India and commit many other crimes that have a suspicious resemblance to what Hitler liked.

I'm not saying that these religions are inherently violent, but that there is no connection between Islam and violence.

When people feel threatened or angry, they tend to get violent. Much of the Muslim world is starving, the US and Israel have caused many massacres and injustices, and there are many attacks on Muslims all over the world. How threatened and angry do you think Muslims feel?
:w:
first off when was the last time you read anything about the KKK doing anything to anyone? not that i support them but there numbers have shrunk so much that they really arent a threat to anyone anymore.

Marxist another small group that you never (or i never hear about) please provide evidence of their last massacre

India, they want muslims out now because of the current events. No one wants people in there country that every time you make a remark that they dont agree with they blow themself up and kill family and friends. Again i do not agree with violence or especially blowing up a mosque.

As far as "When people feel threatened or angry, they tend to get violent" that doesnt make it alright, in fact that is the exact problem i am talking about. Then you say America has caused massacres but i dont see any muslim countries putting up half the humanitarian aid that the US does. In fact i bet if you totaled all of the aid from all of the muslim countries it would be barely a fraction of what we put up. Also many attacks on muslims from what i see in Iraq are by muslims, so how is that our fault? when was the last time you heard of a Muslim attacked in the US?
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Fishman
10-04-2006, 07:49 PM
:sl:
first off when was the last time you read anything about the KKK doing anything to anyone? not that i support them but there numbers have shrunk so much that they really arent a threat to anyone anymore.
Their successors, the BNP are still around. There are many attacks on Muslims and Asians because of them.

Marxist another small group that you never (or i never hear about) please provide evidence of their last massacre
Marxists ruled the Soviet union. You would have had to have lived under a rock for your whole life to have never heard of them.

India, they want muslims out now because of the current events. No one wants people in there country that every time you make a remark that they dont agree with they blow themself up and kill family and friends. Again i do not agree with violence or especially blowing up a mosque.
Hitler wanted the Jews dead because he preceived them to be controlling the country and making lots of money. Does that give him an excuse? And the Hindu extremist movements are nationalist, even without terrorism they would want the Muslims out of India. I found a Hindu extremist website by chance, and the propaganda posters they had there were pretty terrifying.

As far as "When people feel threatened or angry, they tend to get violent" that doesnt make it alright, in fact that is the exact problem i am talking about. Also many attacks on muslims from what i see in Iraq are by muslims, so how is that our fault? when was the last time you heard of a Muslim attacked in the US?
I never said it was right to hurt people when you get mad. I was saying that terrorism is the fault of Muslims who get angry, not Islam.

Then you say America has caused massacres but i dont see any muslim countries putting up half the humanitarian aid that the US does. In fact i bet if you totaled all of the aid from all of the muslim countries it would be barely a fraction of what we put up.
How much humanitarian aid the US has given is irrelivant. Lots of Muslims get angry because precive the the US as causing more harm than good, regardless of whether that's true or not. And if the West is so into humanitarian aid, then why hasn't there been any intervention in Darfur, where there is another holocaust going on?
And I'm pretty sure 'shock and awe' tactics are terrorism, since they involve attacking civilian areas to cause terror.

Also many attacks on muslims from what i see in Iraq are by muslims, so how is that our fault? when was the last time you heard of a Muslim attacked in the US?
Whilst it may be true that most Muslim deaths are caused by Muslims, who were the people who invaded Iraq in the first place? Whilst I definitely agree that Saddam was an awful man, there was order when he was in power. Same with the Taliban.
As for your last comment, dude, almost every Muslim in a Western country knows somebody who has been in trouble with security forces because of their religion! I know two such people. And as I said before, there are loads of BNP-inspired attacks on Muslims every year.
:w:
Reply

duskiness
10-04-2006, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
And if the West is so into humanitarian aid, then why hasn't there been any intervention in Darfur, where there is another holocaust going on?
wasn't that because goverment in Chartum (mostly Muslims, i think...) didn't allow any blue helmet to enter Sudan??
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 08:33 PM
if the West is so into humanitarian aid, then why hasn't there been any intervention in Darfur
If I’m not mistaken Aymen Al Zawahiri called on all Muslims to kill all UN personal that come to help Darfur.
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starfortress
10-05-2006, 06:39 AM
Approximately 15 million Muslims live in Europe, and some of them have advocated creating an Islamic state there.
Timothy Garton Ash fears that European Muslims could be “radicalized by events in the Middle East” and that their numbers could soon reach a tenth of the European population.

The implication is that Muslims as a bloc will soon dominate the foreign and domestic policies of European states.
If people wish to practise their religion(Islam)then they should be allowed to. They should also be allowed if they didn't want to practising it.Why Hijab must be banned.Then they claimed the European Muslim were divided by their ethnicity.The European Nation can be more tolerated to Islam,if they have a better understanding what Islam teaching is.What type of assimilation did they expect from us?They should know Islam is not a lifestyle for Muslim,that we can change it like fashion trend,but we embrace it as a way of life.

It is up to what people themselves feel. I think the whole argument in Europe about this matter displays incomprehension, ignorance and fear of organized religion,which you could trace it back to 1700,the century of the French revolution,the rejection of church and monarchy power.If they really take that as a threat,they are wrong because its never going to be like that.
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Joe98
10-05-2006, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by starfortress
They should know Islam is not a lifestyle for Muslim, that we can change it like fashion trend, but we embrace it as a way of life.
Exactly! That's why we don't understand why Muslims live in the West!
Reply

starfortress
10-05-2006, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Exactly! That's why we don't understand why Muslims live in the West!

Your quote does not help me or anybody to understand your point,you simply seek a victory in this matter.Then you should ask yourself why there are anglo-saxon government in Asia?You deserve that question more than us.
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Fishman
10-07-2006, 08:19 AM
:sl:
I think this 'Muslims want to take over Europe' thing could have a very similar role to the 'Jews control the economy' thing that Hitler believed in. In the Netherlands this gay guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn) almost became Prime minister. Had he not been assassinated by animal rights activists he probably would have closed the borders to Muslims.
:w:
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
10-07-2006, 09:18 AM
yeah i know about him, crazy guy
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Curaezipirid
10-07-2006, 09:37 AM
Assalam Alaikum

I think this thread only serves to remind my how torturously sick I am of the tit for tat rubbish that goes on of : "they think different to me so are wrong"!

Where is the evidence to substantiate any of what is being worked into out mental ability by those posting in this thread.

In tidying up my own mind (which is usually why I post; and in the intention to assist others less adept at mental gymnastics around complex issues) I find:

Post so far put in unanimity can all agree only that the Ku Klux Klan are wrong. So we have one thing right at least.

Another made the point that actually Marxists are far from terrorists and I will add that they are famous for being minimalist about blood shed. If German Marxists had known about Jihad there might not have been a second world war.

But the nitty gritty detail is that too many persons are assuming to profit from the wrongs of others. Each calling the other the greater terrorist. Why? Is it because we all feel terrified about the fact that there are persons dying in natural disasters (lets include 9/11 as an accident of nature shall we, just for this instant) whose families are feeling befret not only of the lives of their family member but from what they might have been able to account themselves in as any fault of that family member. No bones about it, that is why folk are scared. Usually when any person dies there is received by thier loved ones some mental imagery as an apology for what was not yet attended to in life. But in this age, and at this time, in these years since about 1997 I believe, people are dying and nobody is receiving.

So folk are becoming afraid. . . ("but I was counting my money for five pairs of new socks against that person, and now they are in the grave and are not accepting owning the expense of my socks") . . .

. . .. isn't this why the Americans are fighting? Isn't it because they imagine that all their accounts against American dead are being collected by Muslims? But Muslims are equally distressed since Islam is not collecting upon dead either; except and ONLY in the instance of pronouncing a Du'a. Now nothing is preventing Americans from making Du'a, is it?

Australian Aborigines are making Du'a all over the place as the only means to exist. It might not bear much immediate resemblence to modern Arab Du'a, but is the same thing. In fact, why many white Australians are able to believe in Aboriginal ancestry defining the genetic is because we seem to have an embodiment of making an extra Du'a for health of only our own self and only in the hereafter. Every time we make Du'a we make a bit extra. That is why we are here at this time keeping Peace in an astonishingly diverse and often hateful society. Point blank, no other reason. We are just lucky I guess to be genetically inclined to biologically be unable to manifest any other than make an extra Du'a whenever we are unable to discern reality.

Now, that ain't making us terrorists is it? It makes us only slaves to our own certainty. In fact, since we seem to be surrounded by Shaytan from all corners of Earth whom seem to have amassed in on our land to advantage themselves wrongly of our automated Du'a function, we are all the more slaves to our own biology. It is that the shaytan and others inclined to that way are those whom are forcing us into predicaments in which the only way out is to make another Du'a. But we can. We fear ourselves less it seems by having been conditioned ancestrally to such. Sort of well tempered to being terrified I guess. Most of our battles in antiquity seem sort of like slap stick mock battles, except that we got dead of course. But there is a different attitude to the fear that any fight embodies, and that is far more imbued with sorrow; sort of comical sorrow.

Now I am only reporting this as a contextual condition in which all my observations take place. And my major observation in reading this thread is that every accusation against any other country or belief system of being a "terrorist" or a "threat" or even only a "failure"; any accusation of manifesting any semblence of a condition that other persons fear; IS PROVEN TO BE CAUSAL TO THAT VERY CONDITION.

Let me put it another way. If a person from say (I will not use an American example, so thought to a small obscure Nation and then of the Vatican, but since that might just be too close to the bone, perhaps one of the twenty five odd distinct Nation States that independently exist within Australia - we have the most of any Nation of folk whom have Law abidingly declared their back yard its own country) a very obscure and unthreatening Nation State, were to suppose that "if" any body had got rich from 9/11 then it must have been the Muslims, and so then had imagined that Americans had a cause to account their money as the fault of Muslims, then Muslims had felt affronted and etc, well, . . . the consequences are always that if money is accounted against an imaginary phenomena that when we use such money it causes that we begin to manifest a mass delusion that brings that phenomena into being.

So by first imagining that Muslims cause terror because Qur'an is a scary read; but in a wrong supposition that a Muslim might find it pleasant that another person finds Qur'an is scary; any person with money might be able to manifest that a Muslim terrifies them so seeming to prove their point, but in fact actually only proving that they caused the "terror".

We all tend to read money as a prediciton to the future, do we not? Otherwise how could we accept it as wage. "Tomorrow I will be able to feed clothe and house a family from this . . . ." we all assume so as to be able to drag ourselves out to sell our labour.

So I mean only to recommend that if any person happens to be trying to account the fact that they can not find any work within a barter economy against any other person, they might just find that they become entirely unable to justify that in the long run, and that it becomes eventually manifestly kafr to ever suppose that money has any account against any person whose hands it did not pass through. (only The Dajjal is sick enough to imagine being abe to forgive those hands just for a moment then unforgive them again, so beware ever of its trap)

So let me here tell you. I do not ever imagine for one instance that any person is wrong towards me only by having a different experience and a different origin and thus a different point of view. A different mode of expression. If anybody is ever wrong they are wrong to Allah not me.

This is Islam, to not hold one another at wrong.

As for Jihad, it is true that in Islam we are provided with that reasoning which enables accurate perception of what manifests as signs that a fight is not resolvable and will only cause more harm if it (the fight) is let continue, than if it (the fight) is manifested to the full extent in which the aggressor every shows themself more truly, and therefore by violent end. That, as a Religion, Islam is permissive of warfare is not that Islam uses as means without reason. In fact for Jihad to be true both in killing and in being killed a Muslim soldier must be manifestly in Prayer at that moment. Being in prayer is being in Allah and so accepting full accountiblity for any kill in the most negative sense. All those whom fail to comprehend this fact of Islam are simple ignorant of what Shari'ah is content, and that it can not deny any of Torah, only superceed by new place in mind of perception in Torah. This is the insistently integral fact. Torah neither contradicts any of Shari'ah but only is placed within the mental process as though the person is a Jew by birth and long bloodline. Whereas Shari'ah is fuller in content by explicating the detail of what happened to who and what that accorded and why, such that the fulfillment of precedent is met. In fact a legal system that uses any level of precedents is more of Shari'ah and far less Torah.

So only question your self, what are you really afraid of that you ever felt inclined even to believe that terrorism could be manfiestly a part of your own world? Because when you negate the worth of any other group of people by an accusation or a "name" thrown about a bit, then they can only begin to manifest within that. This is a scientifically proven fact. A baby manifests in its health what its parents believed it capable of developing into while it was in utero. If you suppose Muslims are terrorists then that is all you will be enabled in Allah to perceive of Muslims and to your own loss. Not because any Muslim faults you or even knows that your mind faults Muslims, but because your mind will exist ever only in Allah.

Quite simply put, you do not have to be a Muslim for this to be a fact.

If you want to suppose that any evidence you experience of Allah in your own mind, is only that put there by Muslims, why then surely you only scientifically prove this that I am writing, and Allah in your mind.

So just quit speculating upon whom might or might not be a terrorist or a threat or only even who might be failing to believe. Before you speculate your own self into an Armageddon of your own imaginative faculty.

Assalam Alaikum rvq
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-07-2006, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.

my question is when will it all stop?

What must be done to be rid of these extreme views?
I read a good story once about some Buddhists whom blew themselves up when an army was in their area. A bit like the nazis who suicided at the end of world war two. The nazis may not have been Catholic openly but the sure support the sort of Rosicrucian lead teaching that the Pope quite openly leads. Fostered even by nazism that sort of teaching is; so in reality we have all seen small "c" catholics (which the nazis certainly were and are, if not actual Catholics)

But check out my previous post for what that "link between the two" is. That is, the link between Muslims and bombs, which to my mind seems mainly to be only that money in non-Muslim pockets which imagines itself to know. Real Jihad is far more gritty than fellows with bombs tied under his clothes like smugglers with money.

wasalam
Reply

Snowflake
10-07-2006, 10:56 AM
=MTAFFI;508815]I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.
It's about time people realise the difference between Islam and muslim terrorists. Islam does NOT condone terrorism, or there'd be millions of muslims terrorists blowing themselves up! Blaming Islam for the action of a few extremists (yes a few when you consider how many muslims there are world wide) would be like muslims blaming Christianity for the IRA terrorists. Get the difference?

my question is when will it all stop?

What must be done to be rid of these extreme views?
The answer is obvious. Stop bombing and terrorising muslim people in their lands and as a result people won't go insane and start blowing themselves up.
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Muezzin
10-07-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Exactly! That's why we don't understand why Muslims live in the West!
Please. That's like telling a participant of the Million Man March to go back to Africa.

Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I do not mean to offend anyone, but there is a definite link between terrorism and muslims. Without going into great detail, have you seen a catholic, baptist, buddhist, etc. blow themself up, hijack an airline or anything like that? It isnt that all muslims are bad but there is a link between the two. Call it extremism, call it what you want but it is no other religion except Islam.
Oh really?

I think you're mistaken.

Every religion has their fair share of lunatics. Need I mention the abortion-clinic attacks?

I do wish people would not be so selective. Yes, there is a problem with violence from certain members of the Muslim community. Yes something does need to be done about it. And we are doing things about it. In lecture after lecture sheikhs are condemning violence of this sort, for one thing. For another, Muslims are encouraged to firstly try to talk a potential terrorist down, and if that doesn't work, to report them to police in order to prevent the loss of innocent life.

My question is, why does the majority of the American and European world choose to simply ignore the other religious extremists, as exemplified above? Is it because they don't fit the merry, gung-ho stereotype of the 'Captain A-Rab Raghead'? Is it because they haven't really killed that many white people? What?
Reply

wilberhum
10-07-2006, 06:46 PM
why does the majority of the American and European world choose to simply ignore the other religious extremists
Could you give some examples of those that were ignored?

Oh how silly of me, since they are ignored, we surly don’t know about them. :giggling:
Any way it is obvious that it is all the media’s fault. :hiding: :grumbling
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Muezzin
10-07-2006, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Could you give some examples of those that were ignored?
How many Average Joes even know about the existence of Buddhist and Hindu extremists?

Oh how silly of me, since they are ignored, we surly don’t know about them. :giggling:
Any way it is obvious that it is all the media’s fault. :hiding: :grumbling
Where did I blame the media?
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wilberhum
10-10-2006, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
How many Average Joes even know about the existence of Buddhist and Hindu extremists?
The only Joe I know is not average. Besides that, I never speak for anyone else. As for me, I have knowen about them for a long time. There is nothing new here for me. Buddhist & hindu extreamists must account for at least 5% of the extreamists. That might be the explination if some don't know about them.
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