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sonz
10-04-2006, 12:37 PM
NICKEL MINES, Pa. - A fourth child died Tuesday of wounds from the shootings at an Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster County.

The 7-year-old girl died about 4:30 a.m. at Penn State Children's Hospital in Hershey, hospital spokeswoman Amy Buehler Stranges said.

"Her parents were with her," Buehler Stranges said. "She was taken off life support and she passed away shortly after."

The girl was wounded Monday in the attack, the nation's third school shooting in less than a week, in a bucolic area of Lancaster County.

Charles Carl Roberts IV, apparently spurred by a grudge two decades old, wrote his wife what authorities described as suicide notes, took guns and ammunition and went to a nearby one-room schoolhouse, where he killed the girls, critically injured six more, and took his own life, authorities said.

A 6-year-old girl remained in critical condition and a 13-year-old girl was in serious condition at Penn State Childrens, Buehler Stranges said. She said the names of the children were not being released.

Three girls, ages 8, 10 and 12, were flown to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, where they were out of surgery but remained in critical condition, spokeswoman Peggy Flynn said.

One other victim was taken by helicopter to Christiana Hospital in Delaware, where officials declined to release information.

Roberts, a 32-year-old from nearby Bart Township who was not Amish, did not appear to be targeting the Amish and apparently chose the school because he was bent on killing young girls as a way of "acting out in revenge for something that happened 20 years ago," said state police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller.

"This is a horrendous, horrific incident for the Amish community. They're solid citizens in the community. They're good people. They don't deserve ... no one deserves this," Miller said.

The names of the dead were not immediately released.

The attack bore similarities to a deadly school shooting last week in Bailey, Colo., but Miller said he believed the Pennsylvania attack was not a copycat crime. "I really believe this was about this individual and what was going on inside his head," he said.

According to investigators, Roberts dropped his children off at their bus stop, then at about 10 a.m. pulled up at the school, which had about 25 to 30 students ranging in age from six to 13.

Roberts brought with him supplies necessary for a lengthy siege, including three guns, a stun gun, two knives, a pile of wood and a bag with 600 rounds of ammunition, police said. He also had a change of clothing, toilet paper, bolts and hardware and rolls of clear tape.

He released about 15 boys, a pregnant woman and three women with infants, barred the doors with desks and wood and secured them with nails, bolts and flexible plastic ties. He then made the girls line up along a blackboard and tied their feet together.

The teacher and another adult fled to a nearby farmhouse, and authorities were called at about 10:30 a.m. Miller said Roberts apparently called his wife from a cell phone at around 11 a.m., saying he was taking revenge for an old grudge. Miller declined to say what the grudge could have been.

"It seems as though he wanted to attack young, female victims," Miller said.

Moments later, Roberts told a dispatcher he would open fire on the children if police didn't back away from the building. Within seconds, troopers heard gunfire, and found his body when they were able to get inside.

From the suicide notes and telephone calls, it was clear Roberts was "angry at life, he was angry at God," and co-workers said his mood had darkened in recent days, Miller said.

In a statement released to reporters, the gunman's wife, Marie Roberts, called her husband "loving, supportive and thoughtful."

"He was an exceptional father," she said. "He took the kids to soccer practice and games, played ball in the backyard and took our 7-year-old daughter shopping. He never said no when I asked him to change a diaper."

"Our hearts are broken, our lives are shattered, and we grieve for the innocence and lives that were lost today," she said. "Above all, please pray for the families who lost children and please pray too for our family and children."

In the attack last week at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo., a man singled out several girls as hostages in a school classroom and then killed one of them and himself. Authorities said the man in Colorado sexually molested the girls.

On Friday, a school principal was shot to death in Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student, described as upset over a reprimand, was charged with murder.

Neighbors who knew the Roberts' family said they saw no indications of trouble brewing.

"They're a fine Christian family. It's ironic and it's heartbreaking," said Lois Fiester, a relative of Roberts who was standing outside the family's modest tan ranch house.
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Vaseline
10-04-2006, 12:54 PM
Wow. The Amish are very traditional and community based people. The death of the girls will impact them greatly =(
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Keltoi
10-04-2006, 08:57 PM
Just shows there isn't a safe place for our kids these days. These incidents get so much news coverage that copycat crimes are almost unavoidable. I'm not saying the media shouldn't cover it, but there is going to have to be major changes in the American public school system to protect our children.
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north_malaysian
10-05-2006, 04:39 AM
I dont see Amish doing bad things to others..... it's a sad tragedy.... Guns should be banned..:cry: :cry: :cry:
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Curaezipirid
10-05-2006, 04:53 AM
That is a very good point that it could not have happened without a gun.

I wonder what the 20year old problem was?

But will not speculate.

I read a book written by a feminist academic and a midwife whom had worked among the Amish for a long time. It gave me enormous respect for their community.

Surely what ever the grude that was held against them was, has been proven to be in the wrong by the shooting.

We must, as Human beings, admire those whom have refused to let their community be dragged down by industrialisation; and an assault to such a community is a more terrible crime because it is an assault upon all our sensiblity of Human worth.

A Du'a for their psychological recovery; and hand in hand with Du'a for the recovery in Spirit of any group whom work in the opposite direction to economic inflation and industrialial mechanised means, whom have been experiencing similar uncalled fall violent assaults. At least Muslims are raised within education of why Jihad can become needed, and the Amish without such education are too susceptible. I hope that they access Islamic teaching to work through comprehending why such a thing could occur to them.

Assalam
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north_malaysian
10-05-2006, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
That is a very good point that it could not have happened without a gun.

I wonder what the 20year old problem was?

But will not speculate.

I read a book written by a feminist academic and a midwife whom had worked among the Amish for a long time. It gave me enormous respect for their community.

Surely what ever the grude that was held against them was, has been proven to be in the wrong by the shooting.

We must, as Human beings, admire those whom have refused to let their community be dragged down by industrialisation; and an assault to such a community is a more terrible crime because it is an assault upon all our sensiblity of Human worth.

A Du'a for their psychological recovery; and hand in hand with Du'a for the recovery in Spirit of any group whom work in the opposite direction to economic inflation and industrialial mechanised means, whom have been experiencing similar uncalled fall violent assaults. At least Muslims are raised within education of why Jihad can become needed, and the Amish without such education are too susceptible. I hope that they access Islamic teaching to work through comprehending why such a thing could occur to them.

Assalam
I cant live like the Amish people.... imagine if Muslims living like them ... lesser sins...
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*charisma*
10-05-2006, 05:16 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

The girl was wounded Monday in the attack, the nation's third school shooting in less than a week, in a bucolic area of Lancaster County.
It's up to like five now, subhanallah

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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glo
10-05-2006, 06:02 AM
This is such a tragedy! :cry:
May God's comfort be with the families and communities involved in this situation.

It seems that the Amish community was not targeted - instead he chose the Amish school as an easy target because it was
  • a small school, in
  • an isolated place,
  • in a peaceful community, where people were likely to offer little, is any, resistance.
  • and there was no technology (i.e. telephones) to summon help quickly


This guy was obviously very disturbed, and had planned the attack pretty well.
The scary thing is, when people (neighbours, family members, even the spouse) say things like 'He was a very nice man/the best husband you could wish for/he couldn't hurt a fly ...
How can people have such emotional problems, and the people around them don't know???! :? :uuh:

The Amish are a fascinating community. I am very interested in their way of life. :)

peace
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Vaseline
10-05-2006, 06:07 AM
Great points you have listed there glo.
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glo
10-05-2006, 06:21 AM
I found this statement in this mornings news:

The Amish are the Anabaptist Christian descendants of German settlers who reject many types of modern technology in their effort to lead a life true to the Bible. As pacifists they refuse to have guns or join the armed forces.

A spokesman for the bereaved community said they were in deep shock but continued to be sustained by the love of God, and by a strong belief in non-violence and the power of forgiveness.
(from http://www.indcatholicnews.com/amish318.html)

What a touching demonstration of forgiveness and striving for peace!
I am sure we can all learn much from the Amish - I know I can. :rollseyes

Peace with you all. :)
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north_malaysian
10-05-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I found this statement in this mornings news:


(from http://www.indcatholicnews.com/amish318.html)

What a touching demonstration of forgiveness and striving for peace!
I am sure we can all learn much from the Amish - I know I can. :rollseyes

Peace with you all. :)
It must be hard for them to live in a traditional way (with no hi-tech gadgets).... in USA.

Even aborigines in the jungles of Malaysia have access to internet and cellphones...
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glo
10-05-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
It must be hard for them to live in a traditional way (with no hi-tech gadgets).... in USA.

Even aborigines in the jungles of Malaysia have access to internet and cellphones...
I don't think it's so hard, if you isolate yourself enough from society and you are able to be largely self-reliant.
It is not that human beings cannot live without technology - after all we have managed without until fairly recently in human history.
It is more that we choose to utilise (and make ourselves dependent on) modern technology. Once you are dependent on it, it becomes very hard to imagine living without it!

If for some reason the modern lifestyle came to an end and we would have to do without electricity, petrol, running water etc, I don't think it would take humans too long to readjust and learn to live without those things.
After all, it is our adaptability that has made us humans so successful.

Back to the Amish, I imagine a life without modern technology and gadgets utterly peaceful and calm in many ways.

That's not to say that moderns technology is a bad thing and should be done away with, of course!
In this instance even the Amish community had to rely on the services of the outside world (police, hospital etc) to be helped in their emergency situation.

So I suppose, nobody is an island. Not even those who attempt to hide away from the world ...

Peace :)
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Curaezipirid
10-05-2006, 08:04 AM
My Father's brother's wife, who is in her fifties, has a Grandmother alive whom still collects water from a well in her back yard in preference to getting running water in the house. She has only had the electricity on for a short while and only because her relatives were too worried. She uses it to boil the kettle without needing to get fire wood, and lives in a place where there is more wood than water.

Living without is in general easier. Prayer is easier and the simplicity of not being able to stop for a rest just to be housed and feed is the most effective means of preventing kafr.

Assalam
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Snowflake
10-05-2006, 09:14 AM
I cant live like the Amish people.... imagine if Muslims living like them ... lesser sins...
I have a lot of respect for the Amish people. If muslims lived according to Islamic teachings then there'd be a lot of similarities in the two lifestyles. I find their lifestyle very inspiring.
Look at the stark similarity in one aspect of their belief and Islam:
In common with many conservative Christian faith groups, their family life has a patriarchal structure. Although the roles of women are considered equally important to those of men, they are very unequal in terms of authority. Unmarried women remain under the authority of their father. Wives are submissive to their husbands. Only males are eligible to be become Church officials.
No doubt that when it comes to defining people of the Book, the Amish are the closest we will find in this day and age.

May Allah grant them peace in this sad time and guide them to the Truth. Ameen.
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Curaezipirid
10-07-2006, 06:55 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

I agree whole heartedly that the Amish are living a life closer in form to that many more Muslims need to be.

The fuller story was on the television last night after the last of the children whom were murdered died. She had been the oldest of the group whom the murderer did not let out; and she was the one whom begged the murderer to kill her instead of the younger children; she died last of all and in hospital with family nearby.

I cried.

But then I pulled my self up short in tears in watching the news media visual imagery and noticing the intensive wealth of the Amish on display. There was ample reminder of the fact that while they are a very communal society and they value hard labour above any other way to survive; they have not shied away from investing any money from their income into interst bearing investments. In many ways that is the single most significant difference between them and Islam. The only really important difference between Muslim true believers and Christian true believers in any context.

I want to wish for all the Amish and any other similar community that they will learn from the shooting the lesson about what an interest driven economy did.

Apart from that I am sure that the Amish themselves will be first to highlight that instance of what it is that defines or fails to define sanity.

The killer might have portrayed himself socially as entirely sane within dysfunctional social cohesion; but that is not what defines sanity since surely what defines sanity is the interior of the mind and how we can use our internal comprehension to cause our behaviour to only manifest in self decency.

Sadly we live today in communities in which I can not wear Hijab without my parents considering me insane. I could not homeschool my children without my parents considering me insane. Nor acknowledge indigenous Ancestry nor accept practising my Faith. My mother insisted that I sleep rather than go to all night prayer; and I was made to feel ashamed beside her for wanting to only eat a small portion during Ramadan. Additionally there are a few instances in Muslim situations in which I have been portrayed as insane for believing in Jesus as I was taught as a child through Gospel as it is translated from Christian use, as well as Isa's life told in Qur'an. What is the world coming to when I am being prevented from living a decent life by false accusations of insanity while a killer is described as a nice decent person by their family.

Here is another example. Yesterday I met a family on the train, during the half an hour journey from my home to the city. The father was giving another person on the train some resources to find out about Hezbollah, so I introduced my self and we spoke. My intention was to provide a new association, that is within a mainstream Australian social context, with a woman wearing Hijab. I have often been regarded as insane for wearing Hijab and attracted unnecessary negative attention, that I am not equipped to prevent. But I have continued to wear Hijab all the same and began before first entering a Mosque. But the example is that after a small effort to recondition the family's regard for Hijab it transpired that the father had been an Australian solder in the Middle East and he told me some interesting facts.

He told me that he had been ORDERED, when his army section was under American command, that if an enemy had a baby in their arms to shoot through the baby to kill the man. He told that at that order he put down his gun and refused to fight.

Thereafter he had been brutalised in military prison. But not so much by physical violence as by being repeatedly immersed in water in a similar way to a Baptism, and to force him to believe that he could die for a sin in having put down his gun. The army classified him as insane also before letting him return to his family.

There was a curious coincidence in that he is also a white Australian Aborigine whom openly spoke up in that. Few here dare to, and my good friend, a Michael, was wrongly imprisoned and is virtually under a house arrest and enforced to take a strong anti-psychotic medication only for having spoken up that his mother, whom he was removed from when four, is Aborigine. Because apparently in Australia if you are Indigenous and white you are insane. If you are Muslim and believe in Jesus you are insane. If you are Aboriginal and Muslim you might as well be a bomber. If you wear Hijab then you are toxic.

My Prayer and Du'a is with the sanity of the Amish; and that sanity in Allah will prevail.

Assalamu Alaikum rvq
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Curaezipirid
10-07-2006, 11:12 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

I need here to add that the fact of the Amish having chosen to forgive the murderer of their children is already having a substantial and positive impact upon the reality of how all of us in 'the west' will be enabled to perceive the difference between the insane as a criminal matter, and the sanity of a true believer.

wasalam
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Keltoi
10-08-2006, 12:05 AM
What is almost as shocking as the act itself was the proposed protest by that crazy church group in Kansas. These are the same people who tried to protest at the funerals of dead soldiers waving around signs that said "God Hates You". The reason they give for protesting the fallen soldiers funeral was that the U.S. military allows homosexuals in its ranks, therefor God hates them. Sickening group this is. In the case of the Amish, they were going to protest the Amish community and say this act occurred because the Amish are going to Hell. Complete insanity. I'm glad that conservative talk show host gave them hour to voice their insanity so that they wouldn't protest at the funerals of these poor girls.
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Zulkiflim
10-08-2006, 03:41 AM
Salaam,

What a sad way to end.

He got angry at God
Instead of looking at the good that Allah have given him he sees the darkness.

This world is a tribulation,a test of our mettle...
To fall into misery and false hope,to lose power in oneself

Astarfillah

Allah,grant the Ummah meryc and strenghten our patience and tolerance,
Make the path clear for us,To you we TURN TO..
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north_malaysian
10-09-2006, 04:39 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What is almost as shocking as the act itself was the proposed protest by that crazy church group in Kansas.


In the case of the Amish, they were going to protest the Amish community and say this act occurred because the Amish are going to Hell. Complete insanity. I'm glad that conservative talk show host gave them hour to voice their insanity so that they wouldn't protest at the funerals of these poor girls.
What is the name of this crazy church?
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north_malaysian
10-09-2006, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Assalamu Alaikum

I need here to add that the fact of the Amish having chosen to forgive the murderer of their children is already having a substantial and positive impact upon the reality of how all of us in 'the west' will be enabled to perceive the difference between the insane as a criminal matter, and the sanity of a true believer.

wasalam
Like in Islam, the family member of a victim can forgive the killer (with reference to Qisas)
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rania2820
10-09-2006, 09:08 AM
this is so sad its not even safe to send kids to school in amish country. this world is getting worse by the second. :cry: i fear for what kinda world my children will live in by time i have kids and they reach school age.
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Keltoi
10-09-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
What is the name of this crazy church?
I believe it is called the Westboro Baptist Church. It is a small church made up mainly of family members. They seem to have alot of money though, and travel to high profile events to show their hatred of Catholics, gays, and just about everybody but themselves.
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glo
10-09-2006, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe it is called the Westboro Baptist Church. It is a small church made up mainly of family members. They seem to have alot of money though, and travel to high profile events to show their hatred of Catholics, gays, and just about everybody but themselves.
That sounds scary, Keltoi!
Sadly that is the negative power, religion can have over people. :cry:

I don't understand how anybody can harbour ill feelings against peaceful people, such as the Amish ...

Peace
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north_malaysian
10-11-2006, 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I don't understand how anybody can harbour ill feelings against peaceful people, such as the Amish ...

Peace
Even non Christians have no animosity towards the Amish... and these 'crazy' people call themselves Christians?
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ManchesterFolk
10-13-2006, 09:13 PM
Very sad,. :(
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