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sonz
10-04-2006, 12:41 PM
The director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, criticized for canceling performances of an opera over concern that it may offend Muslims, said she will reinstate the production when security authorities give clearance.

Kirsten Harms told a panel debate at the opera house that she will bring back Hans Neuenfels's production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" once Berlin's Interior Ministry "gives a new assessment of the security situation."

The production's final scene shows a blood-spattered King Idomeneo carrying the severed heads of Poseidon, Jesus, Buddha, and Muhammad. Security officials warned Ms. Harms in August that the production presented an "incalculable security risk." The police have since said they received no concrete threat.

Ms. Harms's announcement on September 25 that she was canceling four November performances prompted criticism from politicians including Chancellor Merkel and Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, who said the cancellation was a blow for artistic freedom and set a dangerous precedent.

Deutsche Oper will also ask a Berlin interior senator, Ehrhart Körting, for a "security concept" to protect the opera house's staff and audiences before reviving the Neuenfels production, Ms. Harms said. With 1,865 seats, Deutsche Oper is the biggest of Berlin's three opera houses and Germany's second largest.

"‘Idomeneo' can come back to the Deutsche Oper in the next few months,"Mr. Körting told the panel, admitting he had made a mistake in suggesting to Ms. Harms in August that she drop the opera from her program because it was a security risk.

http://www.nysun.com/article/40892
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Muezzin
10-04-2006, 01:40 PM
This article just about sums up my feelings on this matter (BEWARE, contains one use of strong language, when quoting Theo Van Gough)
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 02:12 PM
Salaam,

So,are they open,tolerant and respectful?

Here they are not asking for muslim views,do not itnend to ask for muslim views,just wish to DO IT.

they do not understand but from this it is clear that they do not understand anything save violence.

Inshallah,the Imams will go and tell them it is wrong,but will they listen?
No..
And when we react to tehir disrespect,we are the ones whom are at fault.

And i am sure like some in Germany,some moderate muslim,will say IT IS BUT ART.

Disrepect towards the Prophet is ART,thus Inshallah,in time when they allow ridicule for for the Prophet in time,they will say wearing the hijab or modestly is in the mind only,it is a concept,as is prayer and fasting.
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This article just about sums up my feelings on this matter (BEWARE, contains one use of strong language, when quoting Theo Van Gough)

Salaam,

Great article but it all sums up the western condescension to be sensitive towards muslim feelings.

They are doing for all teh wrong reason and cannot or will understand the menaing of respect.

Why simple...

casue they do not see muslim or Islam as equal to their lifestyle.

Condesending and belligerent,they assume that they have the right to respect or disrect us as they see fit.
they choose not to see us as equals but as uncivillized brutes who have no respect for their OPEN AND UNRESRAINED CIVILIZATION..

My question to them is,how opena dn urbane a civilization are you if you need to isnult and degrade another to learn or be enlightened?

Inshallah,i see this will go to the way of the caricatures,the german muslim will say STOP,they will be ignored and ridiculed and violence will ensues.

It cant be help,the western world do wish to talk but only on their terms and with their end being the result.

So how do wes top the cycle?
It can only be stopped by teaching them respect,for our religona dn for their own.
they are able to mock their reliogn,go ahead,for they already see little worth in it,and they assume reliogn is the casue of the world misery,,,YES THEIR RELIGON IS THE CASUE OF THE WORLD MISERY,and they want to see that all religon are the same....
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Torquemada
10-04-2006, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

So,are they open,tolerant and respectful?

Here they are not asking for muslim views,do not itnend to ask for muslim views,just wish to DO IT.

they do not understand but from this it is clear that they do not understand anything save violence.

Inshallah,the Imams will go and tell them it is wrong,but will they listen?
No..
And when we react to tehir disrespect,we are the ones whom are at fault.

And i am sure like some in Germany,some moderate muslim,will say IT IS BUT ART.

Disrepect towards the Prophet is ART,thus Inshallah,in time when they allow ridicule for for the Prophet in time,they will say wearing the hijab or modestly is in the mind only,it is a concept,as is prayer and fasting.
Do muslim countries ask christians and Jews their views before they do things? Before you answer keep in mind the Holocaust cartoons and calls for the destruction of Israel.
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Torquemada
10-04-2006, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Great article but it all sums up the western condescension to be sensitive towards muslim feelings.

They are doing for all teh wrong reason and cannot or will understand the menaing of respect.

Why simple...

casue they do not see muslim or Islam as equal to their lifestyle.

Condesending and belligerent,they assume that they have the right to respect or disrect us as they see fit.
they choose not to see us as equals but as uncivillized brutes who have no respect for their OPEN AND UNRESRAINED CIVILIZATION..

My question to them is,how opena dn urbane a civilization are you if you need to isnult and degrade another to learn or be enlightened?

Inshallah,i see this will go to the way of the caricatures,the german muslim will say STOP,they will be ignored and ridiculed and violence will ensues.

It cant be help,the western world do wish to talk but only on their terms and with their end being the result.

So how do wes top the cycle?
It can only be stopped by teaching them respect,for our religona dn for their own.
they are able to mock their reliogn,go ahead,for they already see little worth in it,and they assume reliogn is the casue of the world misery,,,YES THEIR RELIGON IS THE CASUE OF THE WORLD MISERY,and they want to see that all religon are the same....
You are complaining about Muhammed but they are showing Isa and Budha beheaded also. You don't see buddhists and Christians ready to storm the place.
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Torquemada
You are complaining about Muhammed but they are showing Isa and Budha beheaded also. You don't see buddhists and Christians ready to storm the place.
Is that because Budha & Isa don't represent a religion of peace?
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Torquemada
You are complaining about Muhammed but they are showing Isa and Budha beheaded also. You don't see buddhists and Christians ready to storm the place.

Salaam,

And here lies the question of what import of reliogn to the other two.
Buddhist and Chrisitans?

Do they care for those that they claim to be divine?Or do they accept that mocekery and disrespect should a public.

Thus for them they have evolved casue they see the pointlessness of their own reliogn ,we muslim abide by it.
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Is that because Budha & Isa don't represent a religion of peace?

Salaam,

It is becasue in the current evoloution of Christianity and Buddha,it is passe to support their god from mockery and what not.

they once but now they understand the foolishness of their rleiogn and thus do not see the need to defend their faith.

For muslim we see and understand that the west do not wish diaogue,they want us to listen but we cant talk back...
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KAding
10-04-2006, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This article just about sums up my feelings on this matter (BEWARE, contains one use of strong language, when quoting Theo Van Gough)
An excellent opinon piece Muezzin. In theory I agree with it. Yet, I must say I do worry about this slippery slope of self-censorship on Islam. Especially considering that the aim of many is obvious, the (re)instatement of anti-blashpemy laws.

The message of the opera author was clear: he wanted to show that to him God is dead. That is an opinion, and that is also art. It is supposed to be free of nuance and be thought-provoking.

It appears to be a consequence of globalisation. All of a sudden we have an Islamic world that is coming in touch with much of the views and methods of debate in the West, both through immigration and new technologies, and not liking it. All of a sudden it becomes our problem what some guy in Islamabad thinks of a cartoon in Denmark.

This is all just so frustrating. :heated:
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 05:43 PM
Salaam,

I ownder,obviously the actors and writes of the pay are not muslim,so we can assume that most of those involved are Christians/catholics.,....what do they say about this pay...about the mockery of their faith.

Is it like going to church once a week,or for buddhist to go to temple when they feel like it?

So again it is simple,why do you mock your own reliogn and think you can mock ours?

so again i ask,just becasue you ahve lost your faith and trust in your own religon,why do you assume it of us?
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

It is becasue in the current evoloution of Christianity and Buddha,it is passe to support their god from mockery and what not.

they once but now they understand the foolishness of their rleiogn and thus do not see the need to defend their faith.

For muslim we see and understand that the west do not wish diaogue,they want us to listen but we cant talk back...
Or maybe Christianith and Buddha don't support violance in there name. (anymore)
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Torquemada
Do muslim countries ask christians and Jews their views before they do things? Before you answer keep in mind the Holocaust cartoons and calls for the destruction of Israel.
Salaam

wait ,,,did the Muslim in rian portray an Prophet in a bad light?

Or are yous aying that human being dead in the holocasut are worth reverence and worship?

If that is so,then trully i question your alignement of faith.

And the caricatures are a challenge toward denmark and the western world...Their freedom of speech,it show that THEY LIMIT THEMSELVES TO WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO THEM,,but they do not care about what is important to others.

It smacks dab of hyprocrisy

As for the destruction of Israel,why not?Is it wrong?
to destroy a country that oppress and murder and torture hundered of thousand of human beings?
Unless of course you love such coutnry?
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Or maybe Christianith and Buddha don't support violance in there name. (anymore)

Salaam,

wow really.i guess that is the current interpretation of the chrisitan and buddhist reliogn.

I ma glad you realise that and put (anymore) casue then we shall see a resurgence of the christian doctorine to defend Jesus..

Care to watch Jesus Camp...or do you think they are wrong?

Muslim jsut ask to respect our faith,is that so hard?
why?
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 05:54 PM
Some people just hate "Freedom of Speach", "Freedom of Thought", and "feedom in General". For me, I love my freedoms, even if it gives you the freedom to insult me, my famly, and my god.
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Zulkiflim
10-04-2006, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Some people just hate "Freedom of Speach", "Freedom of Thought", and "feedom in General". For me, I love my freedoms, even if it gives you the freedom to insult me, my famly, and my god.

Salaam

where is respect in your world?

Or dont you have it?
Do you have no inhibitions?
Do you have no limits?
Do you have no shame?
Do you have no tolerance?
Do you have no kindness?


I guess that becasue you think that this is freedom to hate,to ridicule,to despise,,,that it comes natural to others.

All i cna say is the world you say speak much about your person not about other..
and that is why the arrogance why the WEST DOES NOT RESPECT>
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 06:35 PM
I guess that becasue you think that this is freedom to hate,to ridicule,to despise,,,that it comes natural to others.
It is natural as violance. Does violance come naturaly to you?
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starfortress
10-04-2006, 07:02 PM
:sl:

Of course Islam promotes a freedom,But Islam promotes the type of responsible freedom.A freedom that respect the others, and respects the guidelines of the Islamic law. It is a type of public freedom,priority to the other peoples right, not the selfish individualistic freedom. Abusing your own self, others family, others wealth, and others society is not the real freedom. Freedom is based on the principle of no harm, no harm to your own self, and the others.Obviously the western definition of freedom are totally could harm someone.When others peoples get harm in the name of freedom,art,science or whatever,we call it violation.
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Hawa
10-04-2006, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Some people just hate "Freedom of Speach", "Freedom of Thought", and "feedom in General". For me, I love my freedoms, even if it gives you the freedom to insult me, my famly, and my god.

I'll believe this freedom of speech brouhaha when they stop imprisoning revisionist scholars. I wonder why they dont show a jew being beheaded... and in Germany of all places...freedom of speech my foot.
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hawa
I'll believe this freedom of speech brouhaha when they stop imprisoning revisionist scholars. I wonder why they dont show a jew being beheaded... and in Germany of all places...freedom of speech my foot.
It is not my problem if you can't recognize the difference between freedom of speach and your foot. :giggling:
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MTAFFI
10-04-2006, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim

Inshallah,the Imams will go and tell them it is wrong,but will they listen?
No..
And when we react to tehir disrespect,we are the ones whom are at fault.

IF YOU REACT IN VIOLENCE THEN YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN BE AT FAULT. NO VIOLENT REACTIONS CAME FROM THE JEWS WHEN THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM WAS OPENED
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duskiness
10-04-2006, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
This article just about sums up my feelings on this matter (BEWARE, contains one use of strong language, when quoting Theo Van Gough)
Salam Muezzin!
That was a good aricle. I aslo agree with it. And that bring some hope for me (or us)...
n.
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MTAFFI
10-04-2006, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Great article but it all sums up the western condescension to be sensitive towards muslim feelings.

They are doing for all teh wrong reason and cannot or will understand the menaing of respect.

Why simple...

casue they do not see muslim or Islam as equal to their lifestyle.

Condesending and belligerent,they assume that they have the right to respect or disrect us as they see fit.
they choose not to see us as equals but as uncivillized brutes who have no respect for their OPEN AND UNRESRAINED CIVILIZATION..

My question to them is,how opena dn urbane a civilization are you if you need to isnult and degrade another to learn or be enlightened?

Inshallah,i see this will go to the way of the caricatures,the german muslim will say STOP,they will be ignored and ridiculed and violence will ensues.

It cant be help,the western world do wish to talk but only on their terms and with their end being the result.

So how do wes top the cycle?
It can only be stopped by teaching them respect,for our religona dn for their own.
they are able to mock their reliogn,go ahead,for they already see little worth in it,and they assume reliogn is the casue of the world misery,,,YES THEIR RELIGON IS THE CASUE OF THE WORLD MISERY,and they want to see that all religon are the same....
people like you cause misery, just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean you can kill someone or think that the "end" of western society will be the result. Your type is miserable and untolerable, you dont like the play dont go see it
Reply

MTAFFI
10-04-2006, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

And here lies the question of what import of reliogn to the other two.
Buddhist and Chrisitans?

Do they care for those that they claim to be divine?Or do they accept that mocekery and disrespect should a public.

Thus for them they have evolved casue they see the pointlessness of their own reliogn ,we muslim abide by it.

it isnt that we dont care for those who are devine, if God feels this is wrong he will judge those involved in the end, it isnt for any man to do anything about, all the rest of the Christians can do is respect themselves and God and do the best in their own life. It is your religion that is pointless, pointless death and murder of other lives. I am sure Allah looks real fondly on that
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Woodrow
10-04-2006, 08:29 PM
Freedom of Speech to person A is equal to profanity to Person B

The whole perspective depends on if you are person A or Person B

Personal choice is if I am Person B I would not want to allow Person A to speak. But, if I am Person A I personaly would not want Person B to speak.

So, right or wrong Person C steps in and demands that we both be allowed to speak.

So until the whole world is perfect we will all have to listen to the idiotic rhetoric of those who do not see the world as we do.

Life would be so much easier if we were all born with all knowledge and pure wisdom. Until that happens, we are not going to agree with everybody.

But, we do have the right and the ability to not look at what offends us. We do have the right to publicaly state why we are offended.


This are just general thoughts and can be applied to each of us be we Muslim, Christian, Jew, Athiest or any other choice.
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Keltoi
10-04-2006, 08:41 PM
I think the person that mentioned this is all an example of Muslims coming into contact with the norms of Western society was spot on. People are free to say pretty much whatever they choose and express their opinions and beliefs in almost any way they choose. To many immigrants into Western society, each statement they find insulting or blasphemous is an "attack" on them. It will take time for some people to fully understand and accept the notion of free-speech. If they cannot accept this freedom of speech, then perhaps they might be more comfortable somewhere else.
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rania2820
10-04-2006, 10:09 PM
this is not shocking news at all.geramany is known for offending all religions. but the problem there is that most of the Muslims in germany will not say anything about this.they will say its their freedom of speech to depict our prophet(pbuh).freedom of speech shouldn't mean its ok to offend other people and their faith.

may allah guide this ummah!
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Keltoi
10-04-2006, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rania2820
this is not shocking news at all.geramany is known for offending all religions. but the problem there is that most of the Muslims in germany will not say anything about this.they will say its their freedom of speech to depict our prophet(pbuh).freedom of speech shouldn't mean its ok to offend other people and their faith.

may allah guide this ummah!
That is just it...in a secular society with free-speech rights it is "ok". That doesn't mean you can't lobby for change or show your opposition to such things. However, once you cross the line to violence or threat of violence, you have stepped over the line. I understand Muslim anger about this, but I don't expect the system or my rights to be altered because of the threat of violence. I know most Muslims don't want that either.
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wilberhum
10-04-2006, 10:36 PM
the problem there is that most of the Muslims in germany will not say anything about this.they will say its their freedom of speech to depict our prophet(pbuh).
Then they would have it correct. It is freedom of speach.
freedom of speech shouldn't mean its ok to offend other people and their faith.
It doesn't mean that it is OK, it means that it is not illegal.
There is a vast difference between OK and Illegal.
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Woodrow
10-05-2006, 02:44 AM
Very good point.

It doesn't mean that it is OK, it means that it is not illegal.
There is a vast difference between OK and Illegal.
Legality issues simply refer to controls issued by the government. The violation of which can result in fines and or imprisoment. They have little to do with an individuals moral concepts or religious beliefs. They are not engraved in stone and can be changed if the majority of the population wants them changed.

the secret is the changes have to be made in peacefull manners and usually do not take place instantly. Those of us living today will make the tomorrow our grandchildren will live in.
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north_malaysian
10-05-2006, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sonz
The production's final scene shows a blood-spattered King Idomeneo carrying the severed heads of Poseidon, Jesus, Buddha, and Muhammad..
How about heads of Abraham, David, Moses, Krishna, Mahavira, Confucius, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak?
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Zulkiflim
10-07-2006, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is natural as violance. Does violance come naturaly to you?


Salaam,

Violence comes easily to any man,for wiht our hand we can create or destroy.

But as the Porpeht say guard your tongue for it casues more harm than the hand.,

May i ask you,are you predisposed to hate muslim,to practice disrespect for other?

I guess for the west it is a natural thing to hate and disrespect for as the artcile and the caricatures show,only thru DISRECEPT AND INTETIONAL HURT DO THE WEST LEARN.
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Zulkiflim
10-07-2006, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
IF YOU REACT IN VIOLENCE THEN YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN BE AT FAULT. NO VIOLENT REACTIONS CAME FROM THE JEWS WHEN THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM WAS OPENED
Salaam,

wait did the Holocaust musuem shown to the world to mock or highlight the Jews pain thru the Holocasut.

the Museuem to create sypathy,not mock.

But this play with it ADDITION of severing the Prophet head is an addition.

All i can say to you is the same i ask of any westerner.
In the guise of free speech,you seek to learn.
Do you and your culture grow and get enlightened thru the miserly of another.

If you do then surely child that dies in Irana dn Iran must have sent you to nirvana

How much must you insult other for you to feel insulted?
How much must you disrespect other to LEARN NEW THING?
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Zulkiflim
10-07-2006, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
people like you cause misery, just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean you can kill someone or think that the "end" of western society will be the result. Your type is miserable and untolerable, you dont like the play dont go see it
Salaam,

I see,my type..May i ask what is your type?

The type that mock other and then laught and say they are barbaric?


I guess you want other to feel misery for you to feel good,is that right?

And when did i say it is ok to kill other just becasue we dont agree wiht it?

We react to your disrecpect for it is obvious that the only way the west learn is not thru diaolgue but thru aggresiveness.

I point to you the caricatures story,the Prime Minister igored Dane musoima dn 11 ambassodor,and when the matter is blown up,he balmes muslim when he could have solved it by simply talking to the ambassodors and Danes muslims..
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Zulkiflim
10-07-2006, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
it isnt that we dont care for those who are devine, if God feels this is wrong he will judge those involved in the end, it isnt for any man to do anything about, all the rest of the Christians can do is respect themselves and God and do the best in their own life. It is your religion that is pointless, pointless death and murder of other lives. I am sure Allah looks real fondly on that


Salaam,

A simple question,when you meet your "god" and your god ask you..

What did you do when you see people mocking me in the streets?
What did you say to them?
Did you do speak to them?
Did you try to say it displeases you?
Did you even try to raise your hand?

and your response would be..

it isnt that we dont care for those who are devine, if God feels this is wrong he will judge those involved in the end, it isnt for any man to do anything about
Now let put it in another way..

Suppose you see a dying child in the street..
and god ask you,and your response would be..
Did you try to help the child
Did you try to call for aid?
Di you do anything



it isnt that we dont care for those who are devine, if God feels this is wrong he will judge those involved in the end, it isnt for any man to do anything about


your faith has gone thru many tribulation and it has gone thru many revison,in the past chrisitna were told to defend their faith,rememebr the Crusades,,those were the best chrisitan in that current revision.

Now is has chaged to suit the ever desire of the church to appeal to amnkind to get more worshipper,i am very sure that as surely as the anglican church has accepted gaya dn lesbain as preist or bishop,,,it will also happen to the catholic church..

PS,check the story about Christian limbo,it seem that maybe limbo will be removed and all babies who died,will be going to hell...which is not liked by many,,so i guess they wont remove it,tho it is not official doctorine
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Yea unlimited freedom of speech is so great thats why the world is where it is now.(Definitely not good)
Gimme a break.
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MTAFFI
10-09-2006, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

A simple question,when you meet your "god" and your god ask you..

What did you do when you see people mocking me in the streets?
What did you say to them?
Did you do speak to them?
Did you try to say it displeases you?
Did you even try to raise your hand?

and your response would be..



Now let put it in another way..

Suppose you see a dying child in the street..
and god ask you,and your response would be..
Did you try to help the child
Did you try to call for aid?
Di you do anything







your faith has gone thru many tribulation and it has gone thru many revison,in the past chrisitna were told to defend their faith,rememebr the Crusades,,those were the best chrisitan in that current revision.

Now is has chaged to suit the ever desire of the church to appeal to amnkind to get more worshipper,i am very sure that as surely as the anglican church has accepted gaya dn lesbain as preist or bishop,,,it will also happen to the catholic church..

PS,check the story about Christian limbo,it seem that maybe limbo will be removed and all babies who died,will be going to hell...which is not liked by many,,so i guess they wont remove it,tho it is not official doctorine

when i die and go to heaven god will not ask me these things i will say i reacted peacefully and never turned my back on you. I will say that I did not judge and only felt pity for them because of their ignorance. I will say please judge me on the way I lived my life and not the way others lived theirs.

The question is what will you say to these questions?

Did you blow yourself up in front of them?
Did you curse them?
Did you tell them it displeased you?
Did you raise a hand to them?

Probably all of the above, huh?


also let me make this simple for you, if i saw a baby dying on the street i would pick it up and take it for help. If I saw a man on the street cursing my God i would pray for his soul
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Dawud_uk
10-09-2006, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think the person that mentioned this is all an example of Muslims coming into contact with the norms of Western society was spot on. People are free to say pretty much whatever they choose and express their opinions and beliefs in almost any way they choose. To many immigrants into Western society, each statement they find insulting or blasphemous is an "attack" on them. It will take time for some people to fully understand and accept the notion of free-speech. If they cannot accept this freedom of speech, then perhaps they might be more comfortable somewhere else.
that is rubbish, there are many things i could not say, for example Sheikh Ali Timimi was given over 100 years in jail for 'inciting the killing of american citizens overseas' in other words he made du'a (suplication to Allah) for the success of the taliban.
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Dawud_uk
10-09-2006, 03:03 PM
please see below, we shouldnt speak from ignorance but look to what the scholars teach us from the Quran and sunnah.

Ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

I heard on a tape that whoever insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) should be executed even if he shows that he has repented. Should he be killed as a hadd punishment or because of kufr? If his repentance is sincere, will Allaah forgive him or will he go to Hell and his repentance will be of no avail?

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

The answer to this question may be given by addressing the two following issues:

1 – The ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)
The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

This ruling is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Soorah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”
[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

It seems that this woman was a kaafir, not a Muslim, for a Muslim could never do such an evil action. If she was a Muslim she would have become an apostate by this action, in which case it would not have been permissible for her master to keep her; in that case it would not have been good enough if he were to keep her and simply rebuke her.

Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

The second issue is: if a person who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, should his repentance be accepted or not?

The scholars are agreed that if such a person repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

But they differed as to whether his repentance should be accepted in this world and whether that means he is no longer subject to the sentence of execution.

Maalik and Ahmad were of the view that it should not be accepted, and that he should be killed even if he has repented.

They quoted as evidence the Sunnah and proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh… As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, “O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of ‘Abd-Allaah.” He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: “Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance?” They said, “We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?” He said, “It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.”
(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2334)

This clearly indicates that in a case such as this apostate who had insulted the Prophet (S), it is not obligatory to accept his repentance, rather it is permissible to kill him even if he comes repentant.
‘Abd-Allaah ibn Sa’d was one of those who used to write down the Revelation, then he apostatized and claimed that he used to add whatever he wanted to the Revelation. This was a lie and a fabrication against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and it was a kind of insult. Then he became Muslim again and was a good Muslim, may Allaah be pleased with him. Al-Saarim 115.

With regard to proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

They said that insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has to do with two rights, the right of Allaah and the right of a human being. With regard to the right of Allaah, this is obvious, because it is casting aspersions upon His Message, His Book and His Religion. As for the right of a human being, this is also obvious, because it is like trying to slander the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by this insult. In a case which involves both the rights of Allaah and the rights of a human being, the rights of the human beings are not dropped when the person repents, as in the case of the punishment for banditry, because if the bandit has killed someone, that means that he must be executed and crucified. But if he repents before he is caught, then the right of Allaah over him, that he should be executed and crucified, no longer applies, but the rights of other humans with regard to qisaas (retaliatory punishment) still stand. The same applies in this case. If the one who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, then the rights of Allaah no longer apply, but there remains the right of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which still stand despite his repentance.

If it is said, “Can we not forgive him, because during his lifetime the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forgave many of those who had insulted him and he did not execute them?”

The answer is:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a valuable book on this matter, entitled al-Saarim al-Maslool ‘ala Shaatim al-Rasool which every believer should read, especially in these times when a lot of hypocrites and heretics dare to insult the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because they see that the Muslims are careless and feel little protective jealousy towards their religion and their Prophet, and they do not implement the shar’i punishment which would deter these people and their ilk from committing this act of blatant kufr.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and all his family and companions.

Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
Reply

Muezzin
10-10-2006, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
it isnt that we dont care for those who are devine, if God feels this is wrong he will judge those involved in the end, it isnt for any man to do anything about, all the rest of the Christians can do is respect themselves and God and do the best in their own life. It is your religion that is pointless, pointless death and murder of other lives. I am sure Allah looks real fondly on that
Please clarify that statement.
Reply

Bittersteel
10-10-2006, 05:50 PM
MTAFFI go to the refutations section,dude.
Oh he is alleging there's violence in Islam.
Reply

Dawud_uk
10-11-2006, 06:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
MTAFFI go to the refutations section,dude.
Oh he is alleging there's violence in Islam.
of-course there is violence in islam, but not going beyond the bounds set by Allah.

the way i put it to non-muslims is this... you slap me once i am gonna ask why you slapped me, you slap me again i am gonna put you on the floor and give you a good kicking. simple.
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-12-2006, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
when i die and go to heaven god will not ask me these things i will say i reacted peacefully and never turned my back on you. I will say that I did not judge and only felt pity for them because of their ignorance. I will say please judge me on the way I lived my life and not the way others lived theirs.

The question is what will you say to these questions?

Did you blow yourself up in front of them?
Did you curse them?
Did you tell them it displeased you?
Did you raise a hand to them?

Probably all of the above, huh?


also let me make this simple for you, if i saw a baby dying on the street i would pick it up and take it for help. If I saw a man on the street cursing my God i would pray for his soul
Salaam,

Well Let me ask you..

you say that your god requires you not to defend his honour or to defend your faith.
Then tell me,were all those othr billon of chrisitan in the past who murdered and skewed and burned apostates and punished heresies...accrding to their understanding of church law,,wrong?
Are thy hell bound?

And let me as k you..

Did you blow yourself up in front of them?
Thgis is a reaction towards western and isreali arrognce,you are afraid of this arent't you.
For SEp 11,how many the US klilled for revenge?
Why is it the US can defend her their honour when we muslim cannot?

Is it any more noble to drop bomb wiht no affect to yourself? While people who perform suicede bombng die along with their revenge?

A difference is this,while the bomber die they wotn be able to kill any more people...Your murdereous action coninue at the same hands.

Can you tell.me,,when you lord ask you,Whta have you done for the lies? Will you answer or remian quite?

And let see for the next one

Did you curse them?

Dont tell that to curse to honout a holy man is less than to curse for worldy matter.
then trully i must say your priorities are skewered.
PS.Muslim should not curse it is unIslamic,but we curse those who seek dishonour on our revered Holies.


Did it displease you? and did you raise a hand to them?

I think this question is more for you...

I wonder,when Prophet Moses as took his people aways and stood under the mountain,when the people forget the miracle that they saw and worshiped a calf...

Prophet Moses as came back and was angered and punished them,and cursed them with hell.
Tell me,was Prophet Moses as as wrong.
Are you claiming that you are better than Prophet Moses as?

And your answer that if you see a baby crying you would help it,alhamdulilah,something right atleast.

But when you hear some one curses your god,you walk away,and i silence in cowardice you try to show your magnamous being by saying you will pary for his soul.

that is not only deragatory but all unassuingly mocking,praying for his soul.
Why dont you aid his soul by telling him of God and by telling him that you are offended that your god is cursed?

Is it so hard for you to defend your faith?
Is your faith even able to to be questioned by an Atheist?

Awaken your faith and stand by your faith.


Surely msulim shall and will talk and seek diaolgue when both parties are seeking a moderate solution for islam is MODERATIOn,but as the Quran say,,FIGHT THEM WEHN THEY FIGHT YOU.

We muslim wont be the aggresor but the defenders.we defend you also form your weak faith when Prophet Jesus as is dishonoured.
Reply

guyabano
10-12-2006, 05:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Yea unlimited freedom of speech is so great thats why the world is where it is now.(Definitely not good)
Gimme a break.
at least we know were we stand ! I prefer that, as if everybody would shut up, and still the world would be sick !
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-12-2006, 05:32 PM
If everyone shut up, at least they would keep to themselves and cause less chaos! but that isn't gunna happen cuz humans have to release some b*** to feel better about themselves.
Reply

MTAFFI
10-17-2006, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Well Let me ask you..

you say that your god requires you not to defend his honour or to defend your faith.
Then tell me,were all those othr billon of chrisitan in the past who murdered and skewed and burned apostates and punished heresies...accrding to their understanding of church law,,wrong?
Are thy hell bound?

And let me as k you..

Did you blow yourself up in front of them?
Thgis is a reaction towards western and isreali arrognce,you are afraid of this arent't you.
For SEp 11,how many the US klilled for revenge?
Why is it the US can defend her their honour when we muslim cannot?

Is it any more noble to drop bomb wiht no affect to yourself? While people who perform suicede bombng die along with their revenge?

A difference is this,while the bomber die they wotn be able to kill any more people...Your murdereous action coninue at the same hands.

Can you tell.me,,when you lord ask you,Whta have you done for the lies? Will you answer or remian quite?

And let see for the next one

Did you curse them?

Dont tell that to curse to honout a holy man is less than to curse for worldy matter.
then trully i must say your priorities are skewered.
PS.Muslim should not curse it is unIslamic,but we curse those who seek dishonour on our revered Holies.


Did it displease you? and did you raise a hand to them?

I think this question is more for you...

I wonder,when Prophet Moses as took his people aways and stood under the mountain,when the people forget the miracle that they saw and worshiped a calf...

Prophet Moses as came back and was angered and punished them,and cursed them with hell.
Tell me,was Prophet Moses as as wrong.
Are you claiming that you are better than Prophet Moses as?

And your answer that if you see a baby crying you would help it,alhamdulilah,something right atleast.

But when you hear some one curses your god,you walk away,and i silence in cowardice you try to show your magnamous being by saying you will pary for his soul.

that is not only deragatory but all unassuingly mocking,praying for his soul.
Why dont you aid his soul by telling him of God and by telling him that you are offended that your god is cursed?

Is it so hard for you to defend your faith?
Is your faith even able to to be questioned by an Atheist?

Awaken your faith and stand by your faith.


Surely msulim shall and will talk and seek diaolgue when both parties are seeking a moderate solution for islam is MODERATIOn,but as the Quran say,,FIGHT THEM WEHN THEY FIGHT YOU.

We muslim wont be the aggresor but the defenders.we defend you also form your weak faith when Prophet Jesus as is dishonoured.
First let me go ahead and stop you with the whole crusades thing you mention in the 1st paragraph, the crusades were a long time ago and this just doesnt happen today, so lets try to live in the present, shall we?

2nd thing, your second paragraph you ask if we are afraid of your weak suicide bombers. Well let me tell you, i am not at all afraid of death, i look forward to it when God calls me. My reaction to this is not at all being afraid, it actually amuses me. These people think they will have 40 virgins in heaven and they are making this great accomplishment when really they will just die and go to hell, and i feel they are better off there. There many be thousands of these islamic extremist that want to do this but guess what? One day they will all be dead and i cant wait. You go on to say it is in their defense, well let me ask you this, what were they defending. Before Sept. 11 the USA did not presently occupy their land, so in essence they started the war, WE ARE DEFENDING OURSELVES AND OUR FREEDOM SOMETHING THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO CONCEPT OF. We drop bombs on those who attack us and we dont die at the same time because we arent idiots.

3rd, as for you next little spew talking about what will God ask me, i know i will be able to tell him i didnt contribute to the violence, i was a peaceful, loving man. I will be able to tell him i did the best with my own life and tried to live by his word. God isnt judging me on everyone elses actions, he will judge me according to my own. This world is to big for me to stop everyone who uses foul language or whatever. If they want to do it and go to hell it is there choice, like i said before, i love people and i will pray that they change their ways.

As for being better than Moses, i have to say if i could part a red sea I might think more into changing the world, but being a normal man and having nothing other than myself to offer to God i am not going to punish anyone else for their actions.

As for defending my faith, the Holy Bible does not ask me to attack every person who denounces God. It asks me to pray for them and to live in peace. As for attack them when they attack you, i agree, no one should be oppressed, however i must say again, radical Islam attacked us first.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
First let me go ahead and stop you with the whole crusades thing you mention in the 1st paragraph, the crusades were a long time ago and this just doesnt happen today, so lets try to live in the present, shall we?
Stop blaming Islam and the Muslims in general for what a minority are doing, then we shall think about it. Till then, expect it coming to you. Maybe you will learn, maybe not. I highly doubt it, considering you know nothing yet.

I am not at all afraid of death, i look forward to it when God calls me. My reaction to this is not at all being afraid, it actually amuses me.
Muslims do not fear death either. Your going in circles.

These people think they will have 40 virgins in heaven and they are making this great accomplishment when really they will just die and go to hell, and i feel they are better off there.
Lol who told u they are dying for the virgins? The corrupted media that likes focusing on only bad things about Muslims? I'm not surprised:rolleyes:

There many be thousands of these islamic extremist that want to do this but guess what? One day they will all be dead and i cant wait.
Yup i cant wait to see u going in hell either. See u on Judgement Day ;)

You go on to say it is in their defense, well let me ask you this, what were they defending. Before Sept. 11 the USA did not presently occupy their land, so in essence they started the war, WE ARE DEFENDING OURSELVES AND OUR FREEDOM SOMETHING THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO CONCEPT OF. We drop bombs on those who attack us and we dont die at the same time because we arent idiots.
Whats your proof of Bin Laden? Fake videos? Hve you ever took notice of em carefully. I have one video showing Bin Laden wearing gold. Muslims do NOT wear gold. An "extremist" would know not too. They also say hes left handed and hes writing with his right hand in the video?( or other way around).
By the way they still have no proof or aren't sure Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. So why did they go in there?:rolleyes:

3rd, as for you next little spew talking about what will God ask me, i know i will be able to tell him i didnt contribute to the violence, i was a peaceful, loving man.
Dont forget to tell "God" that you threw nuthing but misconceptions about Muslims and Islam in our faces. Yup your a loving man alright:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]
I will be able to tell him i did the best with my own life and tried to live by his word. God isnt judging me on everyone elses actions, he will judge me according to my own.
You thinking about being a Muslim? Those too are our beliefs.

This world is to big for me to stop everyone who uses foul language or whatever. If they want to do it and go to hell it is there choice, like i said before, i love people and i will pray that they change their ways.
Just like we can't stop ignorance from spreading from the likes of you.
How do you know won't go to hell buddy? Too much pride I guess? You can feel that way, yet we can't. Your horrible.

As for being better than Moses, i have to say if i could part a red sea I might think more into changing the world
Your not worth being compared to Moses(pbuh). That would be an insult to him(pbuh).
but being a normal man and having nothing other than myself to offer to God i am not going to punish anyone else for their actions.
Maybe not physically but your doing a good job verbally.

As for defending my faith, the Holy Bible does not ask me to attack every person who denounces God. It asks me to pray for them and to live in peace.
Well the Bible says to kill an apostate. Although your comment is not direct, your throwing it off at us indirectly. Smart, but not enough :rolleyes:
It asks me to pray for them and to live in peace.
Its 'asks" you but your not exactly doing that. All you do is slander, even since that first post i answered of urs and you went "dot dot dot."

As for attack them when they attack you, i agree, no one should be oppressed, however i must say again, radical Islam attacked us first.
Lol you have some horrible history. If your out of school, go back to it. Oh and dont read lies please, thanx :)

Take a look at your comments MTAFFI and you'll notice you have a lot of issues you need to work out. Your hypocracy and ignorance is as clear as daylight. Too obvious. Before you point fingers and speak ill of someone, fix yourself. If you took the time to do it, you will see you have too many problems.
Reply

Isaac
10-17-2006, 05:04 PM
MTAFFI, who says the crusaders are finished. What do you call christian extremist such as George W Bush and Ian Blair. The only differece is they hide behind the so called war on Terror sorry Islam.

Goerger W Bush standing in the White House has many atimes this is a crusade againts an evil ideoligy. An evil ideoligy becuase it talks about jihaad and wants to rule the world?

http://www.socialistworker.org/2006-...tCrusade.shtml

And dont go on about how this is rubbish, or its all a lie, well were humans, and humans have a tendancy to differe and belive in different things, which is why your a christain and i am a muslim. And proud to be.
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Whats your proof of Bin Laden?
You are obviously a graduate of the “Ostrich School of Reality”.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 05:33 PM
nope but im not a stupid fool to fall into useless lies :okay:
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
nope but im not a stupid fool to fall into useless lies :okay:
:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
What more can I say. Come join the real world.
CAIR even acknowledges what OBL did.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 05:42 PM
I dont trust people, let alone a human being who is not FLAWLESS!
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I dont trust people, let alone a human being who is not FLAWLESS!
You would conclude the world is flat. :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 05:45 PM
Lol course not ;)
newaayssss!
im kinda high...(naturally of course LOL)
so i dunno what ive been saying =D
People are smart and can be smart enough to lie is my point.
I cant decide, unless i found out for myself is also my point.
Reply

guyabano
10-17-2006, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
nope but im not a stupid fool to fall into useless lies :okay:
sure, and you don't believe in stupid conspiracys about the west, like 9/11 was fake, holocaust didn't exist... and so on !

Somehow you remember me another woman here on the forum , same behaviour, same arguments, same comments ! hmmmmm :?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 05:48 PM
Lol you guys are retarded. im talking about people lying. Stop bringing in irrelevant things.
Good God! ok my point of all this is that im not denying anything which "occured."
Im saying i cant trust people giving me the reason or the perpetrators behind it.
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wilberhum
10-17-2006, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Lol you guys are retarded. im talking about people lying. Stop bringing in irrelevant things.
Good God! i can trust the holocaust, but i dont trust 9/11...
holocaust there was more legit proof
How many thousands of pages of evidence, how many vidos, how many confessions do you need?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 05:57 PM
How many times do liars get away in court and the innocent gets injustice?
The liars or ones with more cash can get fake evidence. A lot wouldnt u agree? This is nuthing compared to that. He always speaking Arabic, how do i know the person translating isnt lying? These are my views, if u dont like it, deal wit it. Im not even saying urs is wrong. Its how i see things.
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 07:28 PM
Its how i see things.
Maybe you should take off your "Faith Blinders".
Reply

- Qatada -
10-17-2006, 07:32 PM
Maybe you should open your eyes. Have you not heard about propaganda? Or do you think that people don't do that no more? Do you actually believe that everything you see is the absolute truth?


If you love your freedom, then realise that you'll lose it one day anyway. And that's when you die. Every soul will taste death. And it might be sooner than you expect.
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 07:34 PM
Oh no, not another OBL didn't do nothing guy.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-17-2006, 07:39 PM
I don't even know what happened, and you know what? Allaah command's me to actually verify what i hear, instead of just believing any guy that tell's me that some next man did it.


O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. (Qur'an 49:6)



If you feel it happened, fair enough. If we believe it never happened, fair enough too. If we believe what we believe, it's freedom of thought alhamdulillah.


Trust me, if you feel that this is the only life you've got - make use of it by doing something good, the past is the past, don't dwell on it too much. And realise that if the Creator can make us once out of nothing, it's easy for Him to bring us back to life again.



Peace.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Maybe you should take off your "Faith Blinders".
LOL oh yea, mines open enuff. At least I'm looking through all possibilities and your looking at just one.
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
LOL oh yea, mines open enuff. At least I'm looking through all possibilities and your looking at just one.
Looking through all the possibilities?
Have you checked out the Extraterrestrial invasion theory? :giggling:

Can you name any serious organization or county that questions what happened on 9/11?

Even the Saudi Government recognizes that most of the people involved came from SA.

If you can’t see that, I can’t help. (No one else can either)
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 11:07 PM
Lol ur going in circles. theres no point is talking to you considering you have a problem with me having my views. I dont even like the Saudi government or any government, so dont throw that at me. It wont work:okay:
Reply

wilberhum
10-17-2006, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Lol ur going in circles. theres no point is talking to you considering you have a problem with me having my views. I dont even like the Saudi government or any government, so dont throw that at me. It wont work:okay:
I think Guantanamo is a shame for the US.
Guess I will just not believe it. :giggling: :giggling:

You surly conceder that a logical conclusion. :hiding: :hiding:
Oh well, I'm done. There is no help for self-imposed ignorance. :rant:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-17-2006, 11:24 PM
Lol too bad there was proof. Your missing the point. But i guess it jus doesnt sit in ur head.
Oh well, I'm done. There is no help for self-imposed ignorance.
I know right, i feel sorry for u....maybe :giggling:
Im done too.
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Keltoi
10-18-2006, 01:05 AM
I think we must all consider the possibility that George Bush made a deal with the Garganauts, an ancient race of humanoids from the Xarxes Nebula...somewhere outside the Milky Way, to zap some American airliners and by remote guidance crash them into the World Trade Center. It must be considered. It is a possibility.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-18-2006, 01:21 AM
You guys are pathetic. Dont complain when someone attacks your views. Im getting sick and tired of the double standards.
Reply

Keltoi
10-18-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
You guys are pathetic. Dont complain when someone attacks your views. Im getting sick and tired of the double standards.
You are obviously entitled to your view, and my intention was not to "attack" you. However, by denying Al-Qaeda killed 3,000 people and instead pointing to some kind of conspiracy to frame poor OBL is an insult to the innocent victims of this man's deranged ideology. If you don't want to "backbite" a fellow Muslim that is of course your right. You believe there isn't enough "evidence" that OBL was behind 9-11...okay. Perhaps you should use this same criteria in throwing out accusations of a CIA cover-up and an inside job. I apologize if it seems I am attacking you, because that isn't my intention.
Reply

Muezzin
10-18-2006, 09:46 AM



Stop it, please, everyone.
Reply

Arwa
10-30-2006, 05:19 PM
Shelved Muhammad opera to return

Director Kirsten Harms defended the cancellation
A Mozart opera cancelled for fears of protests over depicting the beheading of Muhammad is go ahead in Berlin.
The Deutsche Oper in the German capital said the production of Idomeneo will be staged after it received a new security assessment from the police.

Four performances of the opera were dropped in September after the risks of staging it were deemed "incalculable".

The decision, taken in the wake of the Danish Muhammad cartoons row, sparked a debate about free speech in Germany.

German Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble called the decision crazy and Chancellor Angela Merkel warned against "self-censorship out of fear".

'No concrete danger'

On Thursday, the police told the opera company that its staff faced "no concrete danger" if the performances went ahead, and would discuss any possible security measures ahead of the performances.

Deutsche Opera issued a statement saying it "had begun without delay the relevant preparations for reviving the opera".

The production contains a scene in which the severed heads of Muhammad, Bhudda, Jesus and Greek sea god Poseidon are presented by the king.

It was an addition by director Hans Neuenfels, who said it was a protest against organised religion.

Kirsten Harms, director of the opera house, refused to go ahead with the production after security officials warned of possible risks.

"We know the consequences of the conflict over the [Muhammad] caricatures," the opera company said in a statement.

Protests around the world erupted last year after the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published cartoons which depicted Muhammad as a terrorist.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6091624.stm

what disgusting piece of rubbish these people are. yuck
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-30-2006, 11:06 PM
It doesn't matter anymore. They dont respect their own figures, let alone who they consider their God, why should we expect them to appreciate our beloved Prophet(pbuh)? It's kinda of obvious.
Reply

Arwa
10-30-2006, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
It doesn't matter anymore. They dont respect their own figures, let alone who they consider their God, why should we expect them to appreciate our beloved Prophet(pbuh)? It's kinda of obvious.
Yeah, okay. But how can we just sit back and watch our beloved prophet peace be upon him be disrespected? :cry: :cry:
Reply

wilberhum
10-30-2006, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Makkiyah
Yeah, okay. But how can we just sit back and watch our beloved prophet peace be upon him be disrespected? :cry: :cry:
Tolerance
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-30-2006, 11:23 PM
I know sis, but Allah teaches us to be patient. The Prophet(pbuh) had it worse yet he was very much patient, even with his(pbuh) enemies. We know what we consider to be the truth, that should only make u stronger and let everyone know about our beautiful deen. Take it as an advantage to let people know :)
Reply

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