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snakelegs
10-09-2006, 05:47 AM
i wonder how wide spread this viewpoint is in the muslim world

"the ayatollah has said "we believe people have grown tired of political religion and they want to return to traditional religion."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061008...ligionpolitics

Iran arrests controversial cleric and followers

TEHRAN (AFP) - Iran has arrested a controversial cleric and some of his followers who advocate separating religion and politics, a taboo in Islamic Iran, after clashes with police, the student ISNA agency said.

Hundreds of supporters of Ayatollah Mohammad Kazemeini Borujerdi had gathered on Saturday around his house in Tehran to protest the arrest of a number of the Shiite cleric's followers and restrictions imposed on him, press reports said.

"The ones behind Saturday's unrest were arrested. All including, Mr Borujerdi, have been handed over to judiciary officials," said a security official in Tehran governor's office, identified only by his last name, Roshan.

Roshan said the police had previously sought to contain these "sectarian elements" but yesterday "they were carrying Molotov cocktails, knives, swords and clubs to confront the police."

"They even (for a time) took members of the force hostage and threw acid on policemen and vandalized public property," he said, adding "calm has been restored" in the crowded neighborhood in downtown Tehran.

A report in reformist Hambastegi daily said the Special Court for Clergy had recently tried to arrest Borujerdi but faced by resistance by his supporters.

Questioning a pillar of the Islamic republic, the ayatollah has said "we believe people have grown tired of political religion and they want to return to traditional religion.

"The objective of my followers and me is in defending traditional religion," the semi-official ILNA news agency quoted the ayatollah as saying.

But the deputy head of Tehran police, Commander Nasser Shabani, accused the ayatollah of claiming to be the representative of the Shiites' "hidden" twelfth Imam, Mahdi, and misinterpreting religion.

"A person has gathered some naive people around to pledge donations and have their wishes come true, which is a sheer lie and distortion of religion," he told ILNA.

The protesters were reportedly shouting slogans such as "religious freedom is our right" and "freedom is our undeniable right", and carried banners that said "we are ready to be martyred to defend traditional religion".

His aims breach a taboo in Islamic Iran -- a theocracy in which the all-powerful supreme leader is a cleric chosen by a top Shiite clerical assembly.

A large number of key positions in Iran are taken by clerics, such as the head of the judiciary and members of the non-elected watchdog body, the Guardians Council, which vets all legislation and candidates for public office.
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Keltoi
10-09-2006, 04:23 PM
This is one of the reasons I will never support a theocracy of any kind.
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therebbe
10-09-2006, 09:25 PM
The protesters were reportedly shouting slogans such as "religious freedom is our right" and "freedom is our undeniable right", and carried banners that said "we are ready to be martyred to defend traditional religion".
Could get ugly.
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Muezzin
10-10-2006, 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
Could get ugly.
Or could just be freedom of speech in action.

Protesters don't necessarily intend to carry out every one of their slogans.
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Zulkiflim
10-10-2006, 08:46 AM
Salaam,

Islam has laws for everything,even politics.

To break it into 2 is not Islamic.

Consider,the life of the Prophet,he was the leader of the muslim world and met with leaders to form treatise and judgement.

To deny this is terrible.

The moderate muslim attack again.
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Joe98
10-10-2006, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Islam has laws for everything,even politics.

To break it into 2 is not Islamic.

Then do not live in a place that separates the 2!
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Muezzin
10-10-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Then do not live in a place that separates the 2!
How does that contribute to the discussion at hand?
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wilberhum
10-10-2006, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is one of the reasons I will never support a theocracy of any kind.
This and hundreds of other reasons is why I will never support a theocracy of any kind.
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therebbe
10-10-2006, 08:03 PM
The moderate muslim attack again.
I don't think you understand. This guy is very observant in Islam. He just wishes to seperate Political Islam which ends up becoming corrupt, and greed for powerful leaders from religious Islam.
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Hawa
10-10-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
I don't think you understand. This guy is very observant in Islam. He just wishes to seperate Political Islam which ends up becoming corrupt, and greed for powerful leaders from religious Islam.
Greed is synonymous with most leaders be they religious or not, I would much rather live in an Islamic state (inshallah one day..) than to live in a "democracy"
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therebbe
10-10-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Hawa
Greed is synonymous with most leaders be they religious or not, I would much rather live in an Islamic state (inshallah one day..) than to live in a "democracy"
Until the "Islamic State" decides to not do what you or the majority want. Then you will want to have a leader you choose.
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Hawa
10-10-2006, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by therebbe
Until the "Islamic State" decides to not do what you or the majority want. Then you will want to have a leader you choose.

the Islamic state doesnt "do" what it's people want, rather it carries out the will of Allah. The laws of the Almighty are nothing short of perfect, laws that are very practical in this day and age.
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wilberhum
10-10-2006, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Hawa
the Islamic state doesnt "do" what it's people want, rather it carries out the will of Allah. The laws of the Almighty are nothing short of perfect, laws that are very practical in this day and age.
But it will be ruled by men. There is no question about there imperfections.

Your perfect state will be anything but.
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therebbe
10-10-2006, 10:05 PM
the Islamic state doesnt "do" what it's people want, rather it carries out the will of Allah.
I wasn't aware there was a single country that 100% of its people shared the exact same belief in G-d. There isn't even a 100% Islamic unanimous its seems with different factions who argue over interpretation.
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InToTheRain
10-10-2006, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
But it will be ruled by men. There is no question about there imperfections.
The law is perfect as it is by Allah(SWT) but the people who implement in muslim countries are unfortunatley corrupt.

BUT there can never be true justice in a secular state because the laws are not Just even though the people may be. Its fundementally flawed, how can you expect people with all their imperfections to make a system which is Just?

I would love an Islamic state with a Khalif which adheres to the teachings of Islam.
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therebbe
10-10-2006, 11:58 PM
BUT there can never be true justice in a secular state because the laws are not Just even though the people may be.
They are not justice to your moral standards, but they may be justice to others. Just like Islamic law may not be justice to me...
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InToTheRain
10-11-2006, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
They are not justice to your moral standards, but they may be justice to others. Just like Islamic law may not be justice to me...
you only see it as justice so long as it benefits you, just like the people who make up your laws and then it changes according to the whims of the next person. Why should a man with imperfections comparable to mine be able to decide whats right and wrong for me?
Bottom line is only God has the knowledge to take into consideration every possible detail and make a system perfectly Just. Just like when a machine breaks, the manufacture knows how to best deal with it, the manufacturer provides manuals etc to deal with it. Similiarly our lord who created us knows how to best deal with problems we face. YES it can be Harsh, but bieng harsh doesn't make it unjust.

Choosing to obey the laws of our creator who is perfect and omnipotent VS a man with similiar limits to mine? I choose God.
You may choose differently, whatever rocks your boat I guess.
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therebbe
10-11-2006, 12:28 AM
you only see it as justice so long as it benefits you, just like the people who make up your laws and then it changes according to the whims of the next person.
Yet does Muslim justice benefit a non-Muslim? In your eyes yes... in my eyes no. I believe Jewish justice will benefit all, but I am practical enough to not say all should live under it in any country.

Bottom line is only God has the knowledge to take into consideration every possible detail and make a system perfectly Just.
You haven't accepted that a good portion of the world does not share your belief in G-d.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-11-2006, 12:35 AM
Gods law is meant to be justice for all. Humans are not flawless. Those who want a true Islamic state will create one like it used to be. Its one of the reasons why the Islamic Civilization flourished and became global. Nowadays no one is too safe in any country. Everyone in the higher authority, as ive seen, are corrupt to their people. They arent even completely following the Qur'an and Sunnah.
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by Hawa
the Islamic state doesnt "do" what it's people want, rather it carries out the will of Allah. The laws of the Almighty are nothing short of perfect, laws that are very practical in this day and age.
I am sorry to point it out, but you have misused the term "Islamic State" in your sentence above. You imply that there is ONE Islamic State, when in fact there are many. Sunni dominated Ba'athist Iraq was an Islamic State. ****** ruled Saudi Arabia is an Islami state. Shia governed Iran is an Islamic State, and Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Egypt are all, also Islamic states, each with their own particular flavor and personal interpretations of the will of the Almighty. Which nationalism do you propose is THE state of Allah?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-11-2006, 12:38 AM
If they were all "Islamic States" it would be like the Islamic Civilization. There is NO country like that. So dont call it an Islamic State.
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by therebbe
You haven't accepted that a good portion of the world does not share your belief in G-d.
Not just a "good portion" but the majority.

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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:40 AM
This is interesting. The word Wa Ha Bi is not allowed on this site? Why is that?
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Those who want a true Islamic state will create one like it used to be
Could you be more specific about when and where this putative Islamic paradise existed? Was it after the Caliphs split and formed the warring Shia Sunni sects? Or was it during Muhammeds life when he conquered vast tracts of territory? Perhaps your interpretation of that conquering is that it was for the best, and that the society it brought to the subjugated was a utopia, but then we have the sticky problem of the fact that, that utopia did not live to remain a united Islam even past Mohammeds death, leading to the modern day Sunni and Shia split which is accounting for so much slaughter in Iraq, and the antipathy of Al Qaeda for the Saudi regime.

In my worldview, to be subjugated to believe a specific set of prescriptive things and ordered to follow a highly specified set of behaviors without being allowed to rationally consider the benefits, costs, and possible variations can never constitute a utopia because it is an affront to the basic human faculty of reason and self-determination.
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:49 AM
[QUOTE=WnbSlveOfAllah;515417] Choosing to obey the laws of our creator who is perfect and omnipotent VS a man with similiar limits to mine? I choose God. QUOTE]

Why does it have to be obey entity-X versus obey entity-Y. Why not think for yourself, engage in rational discourse with your fellow humans, and come to a consensus with them about what is best for all of you?
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therebbe
10-11-2006, 01:21 AM
Gods law is meant to be justice for all.
But that is your interpretation of G-d's law. I have a different one. Therefore is it fair that I must be subject to yours?
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InToTheRain
10-11-2006, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
Why does it have to be obey entity-X versus obey entity-Y. Why not think for yourself, engage in rational discourse with your fellow humans, and come to a consensus with them about what is best for all of you?
Errr...Maybe because entitiy X is better the y,z,a,q,w,sd,,s,d,fs,df,....

It is laws for all of mankind, not just muslims.

You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.

Islam alone constitutes a complete, all-embracing, comprehensive way of life where the individual versus his society and material versus the spiritual are balanced into a perfect harmony. The laws of Islam are called the Shariah that provides an infallible Guidance of all aspects of individual and collective life. The Shariah embraces religious ritual, personal character, morals, intimate habits, family relationships, social and economic affairs, administration, rights and duties of citizens, judicial system, laws of war and peace and international relations. These injunctions enable the faithful to distinguish between what is good and evil, what is beneficial and harmful, what is useful or injurious, what are the virtues we must cultivate and encourage and what we must avoid; the sphere of our personal freedom and its limitations and what methods we must adopt to establish a genuine Islamic community. Islam teaches that unaided intellect and personal experience alone are unreliable and defective guides which can never discover sound ethical values. The purpose of ethical endeavour in Islam is to seek the pleasure of God. In Islam, morality is absolute and unchanging because its laws are instituted by God and not by man. The true Muslim does not change with the changing times but forces the times to conform to his standards.

As you can see it covers everything and is very practicle unlike laws by other religions or systems. If you study Islamic history there where many instances where Non-muslims lived in harmony with muslims in an Islamic state and they were flourishing, it started in year 638 and ended with the Ottoman empire in 1917. Even though internal conflicts occured before 1917, we can also see from its longetivity that it is very practicle.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-11-2006, 05:14 PM
No one is telling u to like our rules. S*** why do u have to twist everything?
Good God grow up and get a life...
I never said that, so its u thinking it.
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Muezzin
10-11-2006, 07:57 PM
Um, yeah. Can we get back to the topic now?
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Ulysses
10-12-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
Errr...Maybe because entitiy X is better the y,z,a,q,w,sd,,s,d,fs,df,....

It is laws for all of mankind, not just muslims.

You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.[shortened to safe space]
My apologies if what I have to say on this matter is disturbing to any of you as Muslims. In my ideal, all we humans shall one day live in a peaceful world, in which all worldviews which are not antagonistic, supremacist, or otherwise mutually incompatible with others or disruptive to the greater good will live in peaceful and mutualistic coexistence. This would linclude Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, and all the other religions that do not define themselves in terms of their intrinsic superiority relative to any others.

Believing that you, your culture, your beliefs, or your way of life is intrinsically superior is I am afraid, a form of ethnic supremacism which will inevitably lead to antagonism, and conflict.

http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/ethno.htm

The recognition that tolerance, and mutual respect are a critical part of a healthy modern society was one of the central philosophical developments of the European Renaissance and Reformation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Spinoza

Unfortunately, it was only following the harsh lessons of the crusades, the inquisition, and the interminable sectarian wars that plagued Europe in the Middle Ages that the philosophical seeds of the Reformation were planted. I fear that those seeds either have yet to be planted in Islamic soils, else the young seedlings are being fervently tramped down.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-12-2006, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ulysses
The recognition that tolerance, and mutual respect are a critical part of a healthy modern society was one of the central philosophical developments of the European Renaissance and Reformation.
Where did this Renaissance come from? The East, the Islamic Civilization, along with contributions of many civilizations.
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wilberhum
10-12-2006, 06:28 PM
Believing that you, your culture, your beliefs, or your way of life is intrinsically superior is I am afraid, a form of ethnic supremacism which will inevitably lead to antagonism, and conflict.
I just love it when some one presents such great points of wisdom.
This statement is a keeper and I'm sure there will be a number of opportunities to use it.

I have said many times that the concept of superiority is the easiest sell in the world and is the source of most of our conflicts.
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therebbe
10-12-2006, 06:30 PM
You can't compare the laws provided by God through Islam to any other system or way of life. It is flawless because the laws are based on the guidance of a flawless bieng and no other religion (such as christianity, judaism) or way of life has laws which covers all aspects of an individuals life from birth to death.
Untrue. Judaism covers every aspect of someones life. Judaism is a way of life, and holds much strciter diatary laws many say then Islam. Judaism also requires prayer 3 times or 4 times a day, and 5 times on many days.

Judaism and the way of life Jews have followed has been around much longer than Islamic law.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-12-2006, 06:34 PM
Well according to us Muslims, all the prophets came with the same message since day one. Also that Islam has been around always.
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therebbe
10-12-2006, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Well according to us Muslims, all the prophets came with the same message since day one. Also that Islam has been around always.
Well are views differ on that then. My view is that the Torah has been the undeniable truth since Mt. Sinai and G-d says in it he will never give new laws or add or subtract from his word, and your view is it (the torah) is corrupted. Therefore, we have to agree to disagree.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-12-2006, 06:38 PM
Wow. Ya Allah! and u complain that people are bashing u or ur faith. How hypocritical. Tell me one time I have called ur views or ur faith corrupted? I may think it but im not stupid enuff to say it. Why? Because I have manners. You say u respect yet u call my views corrupted, meanwhile my comment was neutral not taking anyones side in particular. So why the double standards?
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therebbe
10-12-2006, 06:40 PM
Tell me one time I have called ur views or ur faith corrupted?
I didn't call our views corrupted.

I stated that the basic Jewish belief is that the Torah is G-d's word.

The Basic Muslims belief is that the Quran is G-d's word and the Torah was corrupted.

Therefore we have to agree to disagree.

No disprespect. Just explaining that we obviously will never agree on if Moses was Jewish or Muslim.

Remember, I said your view is that the Torah (my view) is corrupted. Since I have been led to believe that the Quran states the Torah was corrupted. I did not say "your view is corrupted" refering to Islamic belief as corrupt as you might have thought.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-12-2006, 06:41 PM
My view is that the Torah has been the undeniable truth since Mt. Sinai and G-d says in it he will never give new laws or add or subtract from his word, and your view is it is corrupted.
Then I guess u might want to rephrase. People will think otherwise if you aren't careful.
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therebbe
10-12-2006, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Then I guess u might want to rephrase. People will think otherwise if you aren't careful.
I wrote in parenthasis (Torah) to show what I meant. I see now the statement looked confusing
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Ulysses
10-16-2006, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Where did this Renaissance come from? The East, the Islamic Civilization, along with contributions of many civilizations.
An interesting hypothesis has been considered which accounts for the apparent discrepancies of history. Consider, in 700 AD, the Islamic Caliphs were rising, growing, effervescent and promising, while Rome was in decline, on the defensive, and corrupt. Within a few hundred years, Spain and all of northern Africa had become the dominion of the followers of Muhammed (sorry can't remember exact dates), and the greater Caliphate of Islam in fact CONTINUED! to spread throughout remote parts of north Africa, into the near East (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Malaysia) through the period which is known as Medieval History by Europeans. If there is a Golden Age for Islam it must have been at some point during this period, perhaps during Saladins' reign in (born 1137) reign 1165 to death at 1193. When a fair number of defeats against Crusaders were achieved, and at the same time, a fair number of reconciliations, and concessions that eased tensions between Islam and West were promoted.

According to the hypothesis, it is neither Islam, nor Euro influences which account for the lack fo follow through on the deeds of Saladin after his death, but rather two factors (a) a high prevalence of animosity for the 'other' in both groups in question, which naturally leads to antagonistic and hostile views by common folks in both groups and (b) a lack of appreciate in Christian leaders and groups for the significance and piety and holy decor of events followiing on the demise of Saladidn. In short, Muslims were universally mourning and contemplative, and had Europeans had the insight to approach the Muslim brothers with rhetoric of sympathy, understanding and respect during this phase, so much of the next several hundred years might have played out differentlyl.
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ManchesterFolk
10-16-2006, 06:48 PM
Interesting post.
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Ulysses
10-17-2006, 08:49 PM
The point being: a sense of superiority, or fear of other will naturally lead to hostility and conflict.
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