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islamicfajr
10-10-2006, 01:05 AM
The True Message of Jesus Christ

Auther: Dr. Bilal Philips



Content:

Introduction

Chapter One: The Scriptures

Authentic Manuscripts

Contradictions

Chapter Two: The Person

A Man

"Evidence"For Jesus Divinity

Chapter Three: The Message

Chapter Four: The Way

Conclusion

Bibliography



CHAPTER TWO: JESUS, THE PERSON



As has been shown in the previous chapter, the Biblical scriptures, both New and Old Testaments, are unreliable sources and cannot, therefore, be used as an authentic means of knowing the truth about the man called Jesus Christ or about his mission and message. However, a close examination of these scriptures in the light of Qur’aanic verses will reveal some of the truths about Jesus that have survived in the Bible.



A Messenger

Throughout the Qur‘aan, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a Messenger of God. In Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus as follows:

{ وَإِذْ قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ يَابِنِي إِسْرآئِيلَ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللهِ إِلَيْكُمْ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ مِنَ التَّوْراةِ }

“And [remember] when Jesus, son of Mary, said: ‘O Children of Israel, I am the messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah [which came] before me.”



There are many verses in the New Testament supporting the messengership / prophethood of Jesus. The following are only a few: In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: “And the crowds said, ‘This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.’ ” In Mark, 6:4, it is stated that Jesus referred to himself as a prophet: “And Jesus said to them, ‘A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.’ ” In the following verses, Jesus is referred to as having been sent as a messenger is sent. In Matthew 10:40, Jesus was purported to have said: “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” In John 17:3, Jesus is also quoted as saying: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” [1]


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A Man

The Qur’aanic revelation not only affirms Jesus’ prophethood, but it also clearly denies Jesus’ divinity. In Chapter al-Maa’idah, (5): 75, God points out that Jesus ate food, which is a human act, obviously not befitting to God.

{ مَا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انْظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ اْلآيَاتِ تُمَّ انْظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ}

“The Messiah, Son of Mary, was no more than a messenger and many messengers passed away before him. His mother was exceedingly truthful, and they both ate food. See how I have made the signs clear for them, yet see how they are deluded.”



There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which also deny Jesus’ divinity.

For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, [2] and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.

In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.

Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

There are also verses in the Qur‘aan which confirm Prophet Muhammad’s humanity, in order to prevent his followers from elevating him to a divine or semi-divine status, as was done to Prophet Jesus. For example, in Chapter al-Kahf (18):110, Allaah instructs the Prophet Muhammad (e) to inform all who hear his message:

{ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَنَاْ بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَا إلَـهُكُمْ إِلهٌ وَاحِدٌ }



“Say: ‘Indeed, I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your God is only one God.’ ”



In Chapter al-A‘raaf (7):187, Allaah also directed Prophet Muhammad (e) to acknowledge that the time of the Judgement is known only to God.

{يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ السَّاعَةِ أَيَّانَ مُرْسَاهَا قُلْ إِنَّمَا عِلْمُهَا عِنْدَ رَبَّي لاَ يُجَلِّيهَا لِوَقْتِهَآ إِلاَّ هُوَ }

“They ask you about the Final Hour: 'When will its apointed time be?’ Say: ‘Knowledge of it is with my Lord. None can reveal its time besides Him.’ ”



In the Gospel according to Mark 13:31-32, Jesus is also reported to have denied having knowledge of when the final hour of this world would be, saying: “Heaven and the earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away, but of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in the heaven nor the Son but the Father.” One of the attributes of God is omniscience, knowledge of all things. Therefore, his denial of knowledge of the Day of Judgement is also a denial of divinity, for one who does not know the time of the final hour cannot possibly be God .[3]



An Immaculate Conception

The Qur‘aan confirms the Biblical story of Jesus’ virgin birth. However, in the Qur‘aanic account of Jesus’ birth, Mary was an unmarried maiden whose life was dedicated to the worship of God by her mother. While she was worshipping in a place of religious seclusion, angels came and informed her of her impending pregnancy.

{ إِذْ قَالَتِ الْملآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيْحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيا وَ اْلآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبينَ}



“When the angels said: ‘O Mary, indeed Allaah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He will be honored in this world and the next and will be of those close to Allaah.’ ” Qur’aan, (3):45



{ قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ }

“She said: ‘O my Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?’ He said: ‘Even so—Allaah creates what He wishes. When He decrees something, He only has to say to it: “Be!” and it is.’ ” Qur’aan, (3):47



However, the Qur’aan clarifies that Jesus’ virgin birth did not change the state of his humanity. His creation was like the creation of Aadam, who had neither father nor mother.



{ إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِنْدَ اللهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِنْ تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُنْ فَيَكُونُ }

“Surely, the example of Jesus, in Allaah’s sight, is like that of Aadam. He created him from dust and said: ‘Be!’ and he was.” Qur’aan, (3):59



The Miracles

The Qur‘aanic account of Jesus’ ministry confirms most[4] of his miracles mentioned in the Bible and identifies some not mentioned in the Bible. For example, the Qur‘aan informs that Jesus was a messenger of God from his birth, and his first miracle was speaking as a child in the cradle. After Mary had given birth to Jesus, people accused her of fornication. Instead of responding to their accusations, she pointed to her newly born child:



{ فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مِنْ كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا}

“[When] she pointed to him, they asked, ‘How can we talk to a child in the cradle?’ He [Jesus] said: ‘Indeed, I am a servant of Allaah. He gave me the scripture and made me a prophet.’ ”

Qur’aan, (19):29-30



Among his other miracles of bringing the dead back to life, healing lepers, and making the blind see, the Qur‘aan records another miracle not mentioned in the Bible. Prophet Jesus fashioned birds out of clay, blew on them and they flew away, living birds. But the point which is emphasized throughout the Qur‘aan is that whenever Jesus performed a miracle, he informed the people that it was by God’s permission. He made it clear to his followers that he was not doing the miracles by himself, in the same way that the earlier Prophets made it clear to those around them.

Unfortunately, those who claim divinity for Jesus, usually hold up his miracles as evidence. However, other prophets were recorded to have done the same or similar miracles in the Old Testament.


Jesus fed 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes.
Elisha fed 100 people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (II Kings 4:44)

Jesus healed lepers.
Elisha cured Naaman the leper (II Kings 5:14).

Jesus caused the blind to see.
Elisha caused the blind to see (II Kings 6:17&20).

Jesus raised the dead.
Elijah did the same (I Kings 17:22). So did Elisha (II Kings 4:34). Even Elisha’s bones could restore the dead (II Kings 13:21).

Jesus walked on water.
Moses and his people crossed the dead sea (Exodus 14:22).


There are also texts in the New Testament which confirm that Jesus did not act on his own. Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing...” and in Luke 11:20, as saying, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.” In Acts 2:22, Paul writes: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know...”
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islamicfajr
10-10-2006, 01:06 AM
“Evidence” for Jesus’ Divinity

There are a number of verses which have been interpreted by the Catholic and Protestant Churches as evidence for the Divinity of Jesus Christ. However, on close examination of these verses, it becomes evident that, either their wordings are ambiguous, leaving them open to a number of different interpretations, or they are additions not found in the early manuscripts of the Bible. The following are some of the most commonly quoted arguments.



1. The Alpha and Omega

In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: “The Lord God says: ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’ ” With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.



2. The Pre-existence of Christ

Another verse commonly used to support the divinity of Jesus is John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.’ ” This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth. The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ 5 Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”

Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23 Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27 When he established the heavens, I was there.”

According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21 You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

In the Qur‘aan, Chapter al-A‘raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world.



{ وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قَالُوا بَلَى شَهِدْنَا أَنْ تَقُولُواْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَذَا غَافِلِينَ }

“When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: ‘We were unaware of this.’ ”



Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.



3. The Son of God

Another of the evidences used for Jesus’ divinity is the application of the title “Son of God” to Jesus. However, there are numerous places in the Old Testament where this title has been given to others.

God called Israel (Prophet Jacob) His “son” when He instructed Prophet Moses to go to Pharaoh in Exodus 4:22-23, “22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Israel is my first-born son, 23 and I say to you, ‘Let my son go that he may serve me.’ ” [5]

In 2nd Samuel 8:13-14, God calls Prophet Solomon His son, “13 He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.”

God promised to make Prophet David His son in Psalms 89:26-27: “26 He shall cry unto me, ‘Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation,’ 27 Also I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth.” [6]

Angels are referred to as “sons of God” in The Book of Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.” [7]

In the New Testament, there are many references to “sons of God” other than Jesus. For example, when the author of the Gospel according to Luke listed Jesus’ ancestors back to Adam, he wrote: “The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.” [8]

Some claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only begotten [9] Son of God, while the others are merely “sons of God”. However, God is recorded as saying to Prophet David, in Psalms 2:7, “I will tell the decree of the Lord: He said to me, ‘You are my son, today I have begotten you.’ ”

It should also be noted that nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus actually call himself “Son of God”. [10] Instead, he is recorded to have repeatedly called himself “Son of man” (e.g. Luke 9:22) innumerable times. And in Luke 4:41, he actually rejected being called “Son of God”: “And demons also came out of many, crying, ‘You are the Son of God!’ But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.”

Since the Hebrews believed that God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense, it is obvious that the expression “son of God” merely meant to them “Servant of God”; one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God, as a son is to a father. Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, “son of God” signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. [11] When the Church cast aside its Hebrew foundations, it adopted the pagan concept of “son of God”, which was entirely different from the Hebrew usage .[12]

Consequently, the use of the term “son of God” should only be understood from the Semitic symbolic sense of a “servant of God”, and not in the pagan sense of a literal offspring of God. In the four Gospels, Jesus is recorded as saying: “Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”[13]

Likewise, Jesus’ use of the term abba, “dear father”, should be understood similarly. There is a dispute among New Testament scholars as to precisely what abba meant in Jesus’ time and also as to how widely it was in use by other Jewish sects of that era.

James Barr has recently argued forcefully that it did not have the specially intimate sense that has so often been attributed to it, but that it simply meant “father”.[14] To think of God as “our heavenly Father” was by no means new, for in the Lord’s prayer he is reported to have taught his disciples to address God in this same familiar way.



4. One with God

Those who claim that Jesus was God, hold that he was not a separate god, but one and the same God incarnate. They draw support for this belief from verse 30 of the Gospel according to John, chapter 10, in which Jesus is reported to have said, “I and the Father are one.” Out of context, this verse does imply Jesus’ divinity. However, when the Jews accused him of claiming divinity, based on that statement, “Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are gods?”[15]-[16] He clarified for them, with a scriptural example well known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to himself or to other human beings.

Further evidence is drawn from verses ten and eleven of the Gospel according to John, chapter 14, where people asked Jesus to show them the Father, and he was supposed to have said: “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.”

These phrases would imply Jesus’ divinity, if the remainder of the same Gospel is ignored. However, nine verses later, in John 14:20, Jesus is also recorded as saying to his disciples, “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.” Thus, if Jesus’ statement “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” means that he is God, then so were his disciples. This symbolic statement means oneness of purpose and not oneness of essence. The symbolic interpretation is further emphasized in John 17:20-21, wherein Jesus said, “20 I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou has sent me.”[17]


5. “He Accepted Worship”

It is argued that since Jesus is reported to have accepted the worship of some of his followers, he must have been God. However, a closer examination of the texts indicates both a case of dubious translation, as well as misinterpretation. The term “worship” can be found in the King James Version and The Revised Standard Version accounts of the three wise men who came from the east. They were reported in Matthew 2:2, to have said, “Where is the baby born to be the king of the Jews? We saw his star when it came up in the east, and we have come to worship him.”[18] However, in The New American Bible (Catholic Press, 1970), the text reads: “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We observed his star at its rising and have come to pay him homage.”

In The Revised Standard Version, John 9:37-38,: “37 Jesus said to him, ‘You have seen him, and it is he who speaks to you.’ 38 He said, ‘Lord, I believe’; and he worshipped him.”[19] However, in The American Bible, the scholarly translators added a footnote which read:

9:38 This verse, omitted in important MSS [manuscripts], may be an addition for a baptismal liturgy.

This verse is not found in important ancient manuscripts containing this Gospel. It is probably a later addition made by Church scribes for use in baptismal services.

Furthermore, as a renowned authority on the Bible and its original language, George M. Lamsa, explained, “The Aramaic word sagad, worship, also means to bend or to kneel down. Easterners in greeting each other generally bowed the head or bent down.
[20] ...‘He worshipped him’ does not imply that he worshipped Jesus as one worshipped God. Such an act would have been regarded as sacrilegious and a breach of the First Commandment in the eyes of the Jews, and the man might have been stoned. But he knelt before him in token of homage and gratitude.”[21]

The final scripture, the Qur’aan, clarifies the issue of worshipping or not worshipping Jesus, by quoting a conversation which will take place between Jesus and God on the Day of Judgement. Allaah states in Chapter al-Maa’idah, (5):116-7:



{وَإِذْ قَالَ اللهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ ءَأَنْتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِنْ دُونِ اللهِ ... مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَآ أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللهَ ربّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ... }

“When Allaah will say: ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell people: “Worship me and my mother as two gods instead of Allaah?” ’...[Jesus will say]: ‘I only told them what You commanded me to say: “Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord ...” ”



6. “In the beginning was the Word”

Perhaps the most commonly quoted ‘evidence’ for Jesus’ divinity is John 1:1&14, “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth...” However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. Consequently, these verses do not constitute evidence for Jesus’ divinity, especially considering the doubts held by Christian scholars about the Fourth Gospel. The Bible scholars who authored The Five Gospels said: “The two pictures painted by John and the synoptic gospels (i.e., the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & Luke) cannot both be historically accurate.
[22]...The words attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel are the creation of the evangelist for the most part, and reflect the developed language of John’s Christian community.”[23]

The Greek term used by the anonymous author of the Fourth Gospel for “word” is logos.[24] In doing so, the author identifies Jesus with the pagan logos of Greek philosophy, who was the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.[25]

The idea of the logos in Greek thought may be traced back at least to the 6th-century-BC philosopher, Heracleitus, who proposed that there was a logos in the cosmic process analogous to the reasoning power in man. Later, the Stoics [90] defined the logos as an active, rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality.[27] The Greek-speaking Jewish philosopher, Judaeus Philo of Alexandria (15 BC - 45 CE), taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can comprehend God.[28] The writings of Philo were preserved and cherished by the Church, and provided the inspiration for a sophisticated Christian philosophical theology. He departed from Platonic thought regarding the logos (Word) and called it “the first-begotten Son of God”.[29]

The identification of Jesus with the logos, was further developed in the early Church as a result of attempts made by early Christian theologians and apologists to express the Christian faith in terms that would be intelligible to the Hellenistic world. Moreover, it was to impress their hearers with the view that Christianity was superior to, or heir to, all that was best in pagan philosophy. Thus, in their apologies and polemical works, the early Christian Fathers stated that Christ was the preexistent logos.[30]

The Greek word for ‘God’ used in the phrase “and the Word was with God,” is the definite form hotheos, meaning ‘The God’. However, in the second phrase “and the Word was God”, the Greek word used for ‘God’ is the indefinite form tontheos, which means ‘a god’.[31] Consequently, John 1:1, should more accurately be translated, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Therefore, if the Word was a ‘god’ in the literal sense, it would mean that there were two Gods and not one. However, in Biblical language, the term ‘god’ is used metaphorically to indicate power. For example, Paul referred to the devil as “god” in 2nd Corinthians 4:4, “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.” Moses is also referred to as “god” in Exodus 7:1, “And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.”[32]
Ancient Thoughts

There was serious conflict between the Pauline and the Jerusalem interpretations of Jesus and his message. This conflict, after simmering for years, finally led to a complete break, by which the Pauline Christian Church was founded, comprising, in effect, a new religion, separated from Judaism. On the other hand, the Jerusalem Nazarenes did not sever their links with Judaism, but regarded themselves essentially as practicing Jews, loyal to the Torah, who also believed in Jesus, a human Messiah figure.[33]

When the Jewish insurrection was crushed by the Romans and their Temple destroyed in 70 CE, the Jewish Christians were scattered, and their power and influence as the Mother Church and center of the Jesus movement was ended.[34] The Pauline Christian movement, which up until 66 CE had been struggling to survive against the strong disapproval of Jerusalem, now began to make headway.

The Jerusalem Church, under the leadership of James, originally known as Nazarenes, later came to be known by the derogatory nickname Ebionites (Hebrew evyonium, “poor men”), which some Nazarenes adopted with pride as a reminder of Jesus’ saying, “Blessed are the poor.” After the ascendency of Graeco-Roman Church, the Nazarenes became despised as heretics, due to their rejection of the doctrines of Paul.[35]

According to the ancient Church historian, Irenaeus (c. 185 CE), the Ebionites believed in one God, the Creator, taught that Jesus was the Messiah, used only the Gospel According to Matthew, and rejected Paul as an apostate from the Jewish Law.[36]

Ebionites were known to still exist in the 4th century. Some had left Palestine and settled in Transjordan and Syria and were later known to be in Asia Minor, Egypt and Rome.[37]

Monarchianism,[38] a Gentile Christian movement which developed during the 2nd and 3rd centuries continued to represent the “extreme” monotheistic view of the Ebionites. It held that Christ was a man, miraculously conceived, but was only ‘Son of God’ due to being filled with divine wisdom and power. This view was taught at Rome about the end of the 2nd century by Theodotus, who was excommunicated by Pope Victor, and taught somewhat later by Artemon, who was excommunicated by Pope Zephyrinus. About 260 CE it was again taught by Paul of Samosata,[39] the bishop of Antioch in Syria, who openly preached that Jesus was a man through whom God spoke his Word (Logos), and he vigorously affirmed the absolute unity of God.

Between 263 and 268 at least three church councils were held at Antioch to debate Paul’s orthodoxy. The third condemned his doctrine and deposed him. However, Paul enjoyed the patronage of Zenobia, queen of Palmyra, to whom Antioch was then subject, and it was not until 272 when the emperor Aurelian defeated Zenobia that the actual deposition was carried out.[40]

In the late third and early fourth centuries, Arius (b. c. 250, Libya - d. 336 CE), a presbyter of Alexandria, Egypt, also taught the finite nature of Christ and the absolute oneness of God, which attracted a large following, until he was declared a heretic by the council of Nicaea in May 325 CE. During the council, he refused to sign the formula of faith stating that Christ was of the same divine nature as God. However, influential support from colleagues in Asia Minor and from Constantia, the emperor Constantine’s daughter, succeeded in effecting Arius’ return from exile and his readmission into the church.[41] The movement which he was supposed to have begun, but which was in fact an extension of Jerusalem Nazarene/Jewish Christian belief, came to be known as Arianism and constituted the greatest internal threat to the Pauline Christian orthodoxy’s belief in Jesus’ divinity.

From 337 to 350 CE, the emperor in the West, Constans, was sympathetic to the orthodox Christians, and Constantius II, sympathetic to the Arians, was Emperor in the East. Arian influence was so great that at a church council held in Antioch (341 CE), an affirmation of faith was issued which omitted the clause that Jesus had the “same divine nature as God”. In 350 CE Constantius II became sole ruler of the empire, and under his leadership the Nicene party (orthodox Christians) was largely crushed. After Constantius the Second’s death in 361 CE, the orthodox Christian majority in the West consolidated its position. However, the defense of absolute monotheism and the suppression of orthodox Christian trinitarian beliefs continued in the East under the Arian emperor Valens (364-383 CE). It was not until Emperor Theodosius I (379-395 CE) took up the defense of orthodoxy that Arianism was finally crushed. The unitarian beliefs of Arius, however, continued among some of the Germanic tribes up until the end of the 7th century.[42]



Modern Thoughts

Today, there are many modern scholars in Christianity who hold that Jesus Christ was not God. In 1977, a group of seven biblical scholars, including leading Anglican theologians and other New Testament scholars, published a book called The Myth of God Incarnate, which caused a great uproar in the General Synod of the Church of England. In the preface, the editor, John Hick, wrote the following: “The writers of this book are convinced that another major theological development is called for in this last part of the twentieth century. The need arises from growing knowledge of Christian origins, and involves a recognition that Jesus was (as he is presented in Acts 2.21) ‘a man approved by God’ for a special role within the divine purpose, and that the later conception of him as God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity living a human life, is a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us.”[43]

There is a broad agreement among New Testament scholars that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to deity that later Christian thought was to make for him; he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate [in the flesh].[44] The late Archbishop Michael Ramsey, who was himself a New Testament scholar, wrote that “Jesus did not claim deity for himself.”[45] His contemporary, the New Testament scholar C.F.D. Moule, said that, “Any case for a ‘high’ Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.”[46]

In a major study of the origins of the doctrine of the incarnation, James Dunn, who affirms orthodox Christology, concludes that “there was no real evidence in the earliest Jesus tradition of what could fairly be called a consciousness of divinity.”[47] Again, Brian Hebblethwaite, a staunch upholder of the traditional Nicene-Calcedonian Christology, acknowledges that “it is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus.”[48] Hebblethwaite and Dunn, and other scholars like them who still believe in Jesus’ divinity, argue instead that Jesus did not know he was God incarnate. This only became known after his resurrection.

Most famous among the Church of England bishops, who doubt Jesus’ divinity, is the outspoken Reverend Professor David Jenkins, the Bishop of Durham in England, who openly states that Jesus was not God. [49]

The following article, which appeared in The Daily News some years ago, clearly indicates the degree to which there are doubts among the clergy regarding Jesus’ divinity.
Reply

islamicfajr
10-10-2006, 01:07 AM
Shock survey

Of Anglican bishops




LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today.

The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.


Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.

The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.



“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

=======================================


CHAPTER THREE:

THE MESSAGE



The second issue, ‘The Message of Jesus’, is perhaps the most important point to consider. For, if Jesus was not God incarnate, but a prophet of God, the message which he brought from God is the essence of his mission.



Submission

The foundation of Jesus’ message was submission to the will of God, because that is the foundation of the religion which God prescribed for man since the beginning of time. God says in Chapter Aal ‘Imraan, the third chapter of the Qur‘aan, verse 19:



إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِنْدَ اللهِ اْلإِسْلاَمُ

“Truly, the religion in the sight of Allaah is Islaam [submission].”



In Arabic, submission to God’s will is expressed by the word ‘Islaam’. In the Gospel according to Matthew 7:22, Jesus is quoted as saying: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.” In this statement, Jesus places emphasis on “the will of the Father”, submission of the human will to the will of God. In John 5:30, it is narrated that Jesus also said: “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”




The Law

The “will of God” is contained in the divinely revealed laws which the prophets taught their followers. Consequently, obedience to divine law is the foundation of worship. The Qur’aan affirms the need for obedience to the divinely revealed laws in chapter al-Maa’idah, verse 44.



إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا ... وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ


“Indeed, I did reveal the Torah in which was guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted to God’s will, judged (the Jews) ... and whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed is a disbeliever,”



Jesus was also reported in the Gospel according to Matthew 19:16-17, to have made obedience to the divine laws the key to paradise: “16 Now behold, one came and said to him,“Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So he said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”[50] Also in Matthew 5:19, Jesus Christ was reported to have insisted on strict obedience to the commandments saying, “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Divine law represents guidance for humankind in all walks of life. It defines right and wrong for them and offers human beings a complete system governing all of their affairs. The Creator alone knows best what is beneficial for His creation and what is not. Thus, the divine laws command and prohibit various acts and substances to protect the human spirit, the human body, and human society from harm. In order for human beings to fulfil their potential by living righteous lives, they need to worship God through obedience to His commandments.[51]

This was the religion conveyed in the message of Jesus; submission to the will of the one true God by obedience to His commandments. Jesus stressed to his followers that his mission did not cancel the laws received by Prophet Moses. As the prophets who came after Moses maintained the law, so did Jesus. Chapter al-Maa’idah, verse 46 of the Qur’aan indicates that Jesus confirmed the Laws of the Torah in his message.



وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ اْلإِنْجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَةِ

“And in their footsteps, I sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him, and I gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Torah that had come before it,”

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated: “17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the [way of] the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” However, Paul, who claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, systematically cancelled the laws. In his letter to the Romans, chapter 7:6, he stated, “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.”



Unitarianism

Jesus came as a prophet calling people to worship God alone, as the prophets before him did. God says in chapter an-Nahl (16):36, of the Qur‘aan:



وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ

“Surely, I[52] have sent to every nation a messenger (saying): ‘Worship Allaah and avoid false gods.”



In Luke 3:8, the Devil asks Jesus to worship him, promising him the authority and glory of all of the kingdoms of this world, “And Jesus answered him, ‘It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’ ” Thus, the essence of the message of Jesus was that only God deserves to be worshipped and that the worship of anyone or anything besides God or along with God is false. Jesus not only called people to this message but he also practically demonstrated it for them by bowing down in prayer and worshipping God himself. In Mark 14:32, it states: “And they went to a place which was called Gethsemane; and he [Jesus] said to his disciples, ‘Sit here, while I pray.’ ” And in Luke 5:16, “But he withdrew to the wilderness and prayed.”

Jesus called them to worship the one true God who is unique in His qualities. God does not have the attributes of His creation, nor does any creature share any of His attributes. In Matthew 19:16-17, when the man called Prophet Jesus ‘good’, saying, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Prophet Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.” He denied the attribution of ‘infinite goodness’ or ‘perfect goodness’ to himself, and affirmed that this attribute belongs to Allaah alone.

The vast majority of Christians today pray to Jesus, claiming that he is God. The Philosophers among them claim that they are not worshipping Jesus the man, but God who was manifest in Jesus the man. This is also the rationale of pagans who bow down in worship to idols. When a pagan philosopher is asked why he worships an idol which was made by human hands, he replies that he is not really worshipping the idol. Furthermore, he may claim that the idol is only a focal point for the presence of God, and thereby claim to be worshipping God who is manifest in the idol, and not the physical idol itself. There is little or no difference between that explanation and the answer given by Christians for worshipping Jesus. The origin of this deviation lies in the false belief that God is present in His creation. Such a belief justifies the worship of God’s creation.

Jesus’ message, which urged mankind to worship one God alone, became distorted after his departure. Later followers, beginning with Paul, turned that pure and simple message into a complicated trinitarian philosophy which justified the worship of Jesus, and then the worship of Jesus’ mother, Mary,[53] the angels [54] and the saints. Catholics have a long list of saints to whom they turn in times of need. If something is lost, Saint Anthony of Thebes is prayed to in order to help find it.[55] St. Jude Thaddaeus is the patron saint of the impossible and is prayed to for intercession in incurable illnesses, unlikely marriages or the like. [56] The patron saint of travelers was Saint Christopher, to whom travelers used to pray for protection up until 1969, when he was officially struck off the list of saints by papal decree, after it was confirmed that he was fictitious. [57] Although he was officially crossed off the list of saints, there are many Catholics around the world today who are still praying to St. Christopher.

Worshipping ‘saints’ contradicts and corrupts the worship of One God; and it is in vain, because neither the living nor the dead can answer the prayers of mankind. The worship of God should not be shared with His creation in any way, shape or form. In this regard, Allaah said the following in Chapter al-A ‘raaf (7):194:



إِنَّ الَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللهِ عِبَادٌ أَمْثَالُكُمْ

“Surely, those whom you call on in prayer besides Allaah are slaves like yourselves.”



This was the message of Jesus Christ and all the prophets before him. It was also the message of the last prophet, Muhammad—may peace and blessings be upon all of them. Thus, if a Muslim or a person who calls himself a Muslim prays to a saint, he has stepped out of the bounds of Islaam. Islaam is not merely a belief, wherein one is only required to state that he or she believes that there is no God worthy of worship but Allaah and that Muhammad was the last of the messengers, in order to attain paradise. This declaration of faith allows one who declares it to enter the doors of Islaam, but there are many acts which may contradict this declaration and expel the doer from Islaam as quickly as he or she came in. The most serious of those acts is praying to other than God.

Muslim not “Mohammedan”

Since Jesus’ religion, and that of all of the earlier prophets, was the religion of submission to God, known in Arabic as Islaam, his true followers should be called submitters to God, known in Arabic as Muslims. In Islaam, prayer is considered an act of worship. Prophet Muhammad (e) was reported to have said, “Supplication is an act of worship.”[58] Consequently, Muslims do not accept being called Mohammedans, as followers of Christ are called Christians and followers of Buddha are called Buddhists. Christians worship Christ and Buddhists worship Buddha. The term Mohammedans implies that Muslims worship Muhammad, which is not the case at all. In the Qur‘aan, God chose the name Muslim for all who truly follow the prophets. The name Muslim in Arabic means “one who submits to the will of God.”



هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَذَا

“...It is He who named you Muslims both before and in this [scripture, the Qur’aan].” Qur’aan, (22):78



Consequently, the essence of Jesus’ message was that man should worship God alone. He should not be worshipped through his creation in any way. Consequently, His image cannot be painted, carved or drawn. He is beyond human comprehension.
Reply

islamicfajr
10-10-2006, 01:08 AM
Images
Jesus did not condone the pagan practice of making images of God. He upheld the prohibition mentioned in the Torah, Exodus 20 verse 4: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” Consequently, the use of religious images, called icons,[59] was firmly opposed by the early generation of Christian scholars. However, in time, the Greek and Roman tradition of image-making and portraying God in human form eventually won out. The prohibition is to prevent the eventual deterioration of worship of God into the worship of His creation. Once a human being makes a picture in his or her mind of God, the person is, in fact, trying to make God like His creation, because the human mind can only picture the things which it has seen, and God can not be seen in this life.

Christians with a tradition of worshipping through images often question how God can be worshipped without visualizing Him. God should be worshipped based on the knowledge of His attributes which He revealed in authentic scripture. For example, Allaah describes Himself in the Qur’aan as being All-Merciful, so His worshippers should reflect on God’s many mercies and give thanks to God for them. They should also contemplate on the nature of His mercy to them and show mercy to other human beings. Likewise, Allaah refers to Himself as being Oft-Forgiving, so His worshippers should turn to Him in repentance and not give up hope when they commit sins. They should also appreciate God’s forgiveness by being forgiving to other human beings.



Prophesy
Part of Prophet Jesus’ message was to inform his followers of the prophet who would come after him. As John the Baptist heralded the coming of Jesus Christ, Jesus in turn heralded the coming of the last of the prophets of God, Muhammad. In the Qur’aan, Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus’ prophesy about Muhammad (e).



وَإِذْ قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ إِنِي رَسُولُ اللهِ إِلَيْكُمْ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ مِنَ التَّوْراةِ وَمُبَشِّرًا بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِي مِنْ بَعْدِي اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ ..

“(Remember) when Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger coming after me, whose name will be Ahmad.[60]”



There are also some references in the Gospels which seem to refer to the coming of Prophet Muhammad—may God’s peace and blessings be on all the prophets. In the Gospel according to John 14:16, Jesus is quoted as saying, “And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,[61] to be with you for ever.”

Christian laymen usually interpret the “Counselor” mentioned in John 14:16 as the Holy Spirit.[62] However, the phrase “another Counselor” implies that it will be someone else like Jesus and not the Holy Spirit,[63] especially considering John 16:7, in which Jesus is reported to have said, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” The term “Counselor” could not be referring to the Holy Spirit here, because—according to the Gospels—the Holy Spirit was already present in the world prior to Jesus’ birth,[64] as well as during his ministry.[65] This verse implies that the “Counselor” had not already come.

Jesus’ declaration that the prophet-counselor “will be with you forever,” could be interpreted to mean that there would be no need for additional prophets to succeed this Counselor. He would be the last of the Prophets of God, whose message would be preserved until the end of the world.[66]
Jesus’ foretelling the coming of Muhammad— may God’s peace be upon both of them—confirmed the prophesies about Prophet Muhammad (e) in the Torah. In Deuteronomy 18:18 & 19, it is written that the Lord said to Moses, “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren [67]; and I will put my words in his mouth [68], and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name [69], I myself will require it of him.” In Isaiah 42, Isaiah prophesies about a chosen “Servant of the Lord” whose prophetic mission would be to all mankind, unlike the Hebrew prophets whose missions were limited to Israel. “1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the nations... 4 He will not fail or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law...11 Let the desert and its cities lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar inhabits.” This particular servant of the Lord is the only one identified with Kedar, [70] the Arabs.[71]




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] See also, John 4:34, 5:30, 7:16 & 28, 11:42, 13:16, 14:24.

[2] Jesus here rejects being called ‘perfectly good’, because perfection belongs only to God. He was ‘good’, but, being the “Son of man”(Mat. 19:29)—as he liked to call himself—he was capable of error.

[3] It should be noted that, in spite of the Qur’aanic warnings and other statements of Prophet Muhammad himself, some Muslims have elevated him to semi-divine status by directing their prayers to or through him.

[4] The Biblical story of Jesus turning water into wine (John 2:1-10) is conspicuously absent from the Qur’aan.

[5] See also, Hosea 1:10, of the King James Version.

[6] In the Revised Standard Version, it states: “And I will make him the first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.” See also Jeremiah 31:9, “...for I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my first-born.”

[7] See also, Job 2:1 and 38:4-7. Other references to sons of God can also be found in Genesis 6:2, Deuteronomy 14:1 and Hosea 1:10.

[8] Luke 3:38.

[9] The term “begotten” in Old English meant ‘to be fathered by’ and it was used to distinguish between Jesus, who was supposed to be the literal son of God, from the figurative use of the term ‘son’ for God’s “created sons”.

[10] In the New Testament Book of Acts, there are several outlines of speeches of the early disciples of Jesus, speeches which date from the year 33 CE, almost forty years before the Four Gospels were written. In one of these discourses, Jesus is referred to specifically as andra apo tou theou: “a man from God.” (Acts 2:22). Not once do these early confessions of faith use the expression wios tou theou: “Son of God”, but they do speak several times of Jesus as God’s servant and prophet (Acts 3:13, 22, 23, 26). The significance of these speeches is that they accurately reflect the original belief and terminology of the disciples, before the belief and terminology were evolved under the influence of Roman religion and Greek philosophy. They reflect a tradition which is older than that used by the Four Gospels, in which Jesus is not invested with godship or divine sonship. (Bible Studies From a Muslim Perspective, p. 12).

[11] See Acts 14:11-13. In the city of Lystra (Turkey), Paul and Barnabas preached, and the pagan peoples claimed that they were gods incarnate. They called Barnabas the Roman god Zeus, and Paul the Roman god Hermes.

[12] Bible Studies from a Muslim Perspective, p. 15.

[13] Matthew 5:9.

[14] Journal of Theological Studies, vol. 39 and Theology, vol. 91, no. 741.

[15] Jesus is quoting Psalms 82:6 “I have said, ‘Ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the Most High.’ ”

[16] John 10:34.

[17] See also John 17:11.

[18] See also, Matthew 2:8.

[19] See also Matthew 28:9, “And behold, Jesus met them and said, ‘Hail!’ And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshipped him.”

[20] See, for example, I Samuel 25:23, “When Abigail saw David, she made haste, and alighted from the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed to the ground.

[21] Gospel Light, (1936 ed.), p. 353, quoted in Jesus, p. 21.

[22] The Gospel of John differs so radically from the other three Gospels (the Synoptic Gospels) that its authenticity is in doubt. For example:

The Synoptic Gospels // The Gospel of John

Jesus’ public ministry lasts one year // Jesus’ public ministry lasts for three years
Jesus speaks in brief one-liners and parables // Jesus speaks in lengthy philosophic discourses
Jesus has little to say about himself // Jesus reflects extensively on his mission and his person
Casting out money changers from the temple is the last event of his earthly mission // Casting out money changers from the temple is the first incident of his mission
Jesus defends the causes of the poor and the oppressed // Jesus has little or nothing to say about the poor and oppressed

Jesus is an exorcist // Jesus performs no exorcisms

Jesus is crucified on 15 Nisan // Jesus is crucified on 14 Nisan, the day of the Jewish passover sacrifice



[23] The Five Gospels, p. 10.

[24] Its plural is logoi and it also means “reason” or “plan”.

[25] The concept defined by the term logos is also found in Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems. (The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 7, p. 440).

[26] Stoics were philosophers who followed the teacings of the thinker Zeno of Citicum (4th-3rd century BC).

[27] They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe.

[28] According to Philo and the Middle Platonists, philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of the 4th-century-BC Greek master philosopher Plato, the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind. (The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 7, p. 440).

[29] The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 9, p. 386.

[30] Ibid., vol. 7, p. 440.

[31] Christ in Islam, pp.40-1.

[32] This is according to the King James Version and the Authorized Version. In the Revised Standard Version, the translation of this verse is rendered, “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘See, I make you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.”

[33] The Myth-maker, p. 172.

[34] Seventy years later a Christian Church was reconstituted in Jerusalem, after the city had been devastated by the Romans for a second time and rebuilt as a Gentile city called Aelia Capitolina. This new Christian Church had no continuity with the early ‘Jerusalem Church’ led by James. Its members were Gentiles, as Eusebius testifies, and its doctrines were those of Pauline Christianity. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, III. v. 2-3, quoted in The Myth-maker, p. 174).

[35] The Myth-maker, p. 175.

[36] The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 4, p. 344.

[37] Ibid., vol. 4, p. 344.

[38] Also known as Dynamic or Adoptionist Monarchianism.

[39] The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 8, p. 244.

[40] The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 9, p. 208.

[41] Ibid., vol. 1, pp. 556-7.

[42] The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 1, pp. 549-50.

[43] The Myth of God Incarnate, p. ix.

[44] The Metaphor of God Incarnate, pp. 27-8.

[45] Jesus and the Living Past, p. 39.

[46] The Origin of Christology, p. 136.

[47] Christology in the Making, p. 60.

[48] The Incarnation, p. 74.

[49] The Economist, April 1, 1989, vol. 311, no. 7596, p. 19.

[50] King James Version and The Authorized Version.

[51] The Purpose of Creation, pp. 42-3.

[52] Literally “we”, known as the “royal we” or the “majestic we”, refers to Allaah.

[53] Called Saint Mary, she became an object of veneration in the Christian Church since the apostolic age. She was given the title theotokos, meaning “God-bearer” or “mother of God” in the 3rd or 4th century. Popular devotion to Mary—in the form of feasts, devotional services, and the rosary—has played a tremendously important role in the lives of Roman Catholics and the Orthodox. (The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 7. pp. 897-8 and vol. 16, pp. 278-9).

[54] The angels, Michael, Gabriel and Raphael were made saints and the religious celebration known as Michaelmas (called, “the Feast of St. Michael and All Saints” by the Anglicans) was dedicated to them on the 29th of September by the Western churches, and 8th of November by the Eastern Orthodox Church. The cult of St. Michael began in the Eastern Church in the 4th century CE. Because of St. Michael’s traditional position as leader of the heavenly armies, veneration of all angels was eventually incorporated into his cult. (The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 8, p. 95). He became the patron saint of soldiers.

[55] The World Book Encyclopedia, vol. 1, p. 509.

[56] The World Book Encyclopedia, vol. 11, p. 146.

[57] Ibid., vol. 3, p. 417.

[58] Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 1, p. 387, no. 1474.

[59] The Iconoclastic Controversy was a dispute over the use of religious images (icons) in the Byzantine Empire during the 8th and 9th centuries. The Iconoclasts (those who rejected images) objected to icon worship for several reasons, including the Old Testament prohibition against images in the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:4) and the possibility of idolatry. The defenders of icon worship insisted on the symbolic nature of images and on the dignity of created matter.

In the early church, the making and veneration of portraits of Christ and the saints were consistently opposed. The use of icons, nevertheless, steadily gained in popularity, especially in the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire. Toward the end of the 6th century CE and in the 7th, icons became the object of an officially encouraged cult, often implying a superstitious belief in their animation. Opposition to such practices became particularly strong in Asia Minor. In 726, the Byzantine emperor Leo III took a public stand against icons and by 730 their use was officially prohibited. This led to the persecution of icon worshippers that reached great severity in the reign of Leo’s successor, Constantine V (741-775 CE).

In 787, however, the empress Irene convoked the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea, at which Iconoclasm was condemned and the use of images was reestablished. The Iconoclasts regained power in 814 after Leo V’s accession, and the use of icons was again forbidden at a council (815 CE). The second Iconoclast period ended with the death of the emperor Theophilus in 842. In 843 his widow finally restored icon veneration, an event still celebrated in the Eastern Orthodox Church as the Feast of Orthodoxy. (The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, vol. 6, p. 237)

[60] “Ahmad” like “Muhammad” is a derivative from the Arabic root hamd meaning “praise; thanks”. Prophet Muhammad (e) was also known by this name.

[61] The Greek word paraclete is translated as “Comforter” in the King James Version, and as “Advocate” and “Helper” in other translations. Parakletos means one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises another from deep concern for the other’s welfare. (Beacon Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 168).

[62] See John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...” However, in 1st John 4:1, the term “Spirit” is used to refer to a prophet, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

[63] In English, “another” may mean “one more of the same kind” or “one more of a different kind.” The Greek text of the New Testament uses the word allon, which is the masculine accusative form of allos: “another of the same kind”. The Greek word for “another of a different kind” is heteros, but the New Testament does not use this word in John 14:16. (Jesus, a Prophet of Islam, pp. 15-6).

[64] John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb (Luke 1:15); Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41); John’s father, Zacharias, was also filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke:1:67).

[65] The Holy Spirit was on Simeon (Luke 2:26) and it descended in the shape of a dove on Jesus (Luke 3:22).

[66] Jesus, A Prophet of Islam, p. 13.

[67] The brethren of the Jews—who are themselves descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac—are the Arabs, descendants of Isaac’s brother Ishmael.

[68] The Qur’aan literally means “the recital”. Prophet Muhammad (e) taught that the Qur’aan was the words of God. His own explanations and instructions are referred to as hadeeth.

[69] Each of the 114 chapters of the Qur’aan begins with the prayer: “In the name of Allaah, the Beneficient, the Most Merciful,” except one, chapter 9.

[70] Ishmael’s descendants came to be known as Arabs, a term which, in Hebrew, meant those who inhabited the ‘arabah or desert (Dictionary of the Bible, p. 47). The most prominently mentioned of Ishmael’s twelve sons is Qaydar (Kedar in Hebrew). In some Bible verses Qaydar is synonymous with Arabs in general (Jeremiah 2:10; Ezekiel 27:21; Isaiah 60:7; Song of Solomon 1:5).

[71] Jesus, A Prophet of Islam, p. 11.



THE END

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marwen
10-29-2011, 08:05 AM
Very beneficial thread.

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YieldedOne
11-04-2011, 01:32 PM
A Whispered Voice from the Past Says...

The Core Message of Jesus as God's Prophet and Messenger:
Human beings are to express singular worship of and submission to the One Uncreated Creator by a) thanksgiving, adoration and glorification to the Creator and b) works of loving-kindness and compassion to others and ourselves. In this, we are also to consecrate ourselves and be holy, compassionate, merciful, and loving because our Creator is holy, compassionate, merciful and loving.
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Burninglight
01-21-2012, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr
Further evidence is drawn from verses ten and eleven of the Gospel according to John, chapter 14, where people asked Jesus to show them the Father, and he was supposed to have said: “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.”
I don't believe it was ten of the eleven just from memory it was just Philip, but you left out the part where when he was asked Jesus to show the father, He told Philip, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know me?" Please note that the Scriptures are replete with Jesus calling God His father and the the Father calling Jesus His son from heaven in an audible voice. Yes, many are called the sons of God including those who are Christians (But as many as recieved Him to them gave He the power to become the sons of God), but the Bible makes it clear that he is the unique son of God, and those that have Him (the son) have life, and those that don't, they have the wrath of God abiding on them. The Bible speaks of David being His son of God forever, because of Jesus being the fullifillment of it as being his descendant. Read Isaiah 53. It too points to Jesus.
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Ramadhan
01-21-2012, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't believe it was ten of the eleven just from memory it was just Philip, but you left out the part where when he was asked to show the father, He told Philip, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know me?" Please note that the Scriptures are replete with Jesua calling God His father and the the Father calling Jesus His son from heaven in an audible voice. Yes, many are called the sons of God including those who are Christians (But as many as recience Him to them gave He the power to become the sons of God), but the Bible makes it clear that he is the unique son of God. and those that have Him have life, and those that don't, they have the wrath of God abiding on them. the Bible speaks of David being His son of God forever, because of Jesus being the fullifillment of it as being his descendant. Read Isaiah 53. It too points to Jesus.
Finally, a christian who DIRECTLY claimed that God has a son.

Thank you for your forthcoming.

So it is clear that christianity is polytheistic.
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Burninglight
01-24-2012, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr
Jesus called them to worship the one true God who is unique in His qualities. God does not have the attributes of His creation, nor does any creature share any of His attributes. In Matthew 19:16-17, when the man called Prophet Jesus ‘good’, saying, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Prophet Jesus replied, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.” He denied the attribution of ‘infinite goodness’ or ‘perfect goodness’ to himself, and affirmed that this attribute belongs to Allaah alone.
Jesus was speaking to him rhetorically. Since only God is good, he wanted the man to know that he was calling Jesus God or equal to God as his son. jesus said he Father is in Heaven and God said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please" Jesus, said that voice came not for His sake but for yours. I admit it isn't easy to understand how jesu can be deity but even the disciples had problems with Jesus' sayings. Philip said, "Show us the father and we'll be satisfied." Jesus said, "How long have I been with you and you still don't know ME; he that has seen me has seen the Father so why do you ask me show me the father" He also clarifies "Know ye not that I and my father are one" I am a Christian; I am monotheistic; to say I am not is a grave insult. Go is one just as Jesus said. But it is written that "he that has the son has life, and he that doesn't have the son, does not have life, but the wrath of God abides of him"
format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr
In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated: “17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the [way of] the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” However, Paul, who claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, systematically cancelled the laws. In his letter to the Romans, chapter 7:6, he stated, “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.”
Jesus is the one that chose Paul to clarify His will forever. Paul IMO, was the last greatest apostle that ever lived. He was right to say we are now dead to the law. Jesus fufilled the law in His death. When we are baptized we identify with Christ in his death and we are raised in newness of life. Now when we love God with all our heart mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourself, we too fufill all the law and the prophets. Jesu has set us free from the law of sin and death. It is the law that proves we are sinners. No one has ever been able to keep the law of God prefectly. That is why it is written for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Even Isaiah 53 states "all we like sheep have gone astray" and the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through nad only through Jesus. Christians believe that we must meet God on his terms not ours
format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr
The term Mohammedans implies that Muslims worship Muhammad, which is not the case at all. In the Qur‘aan, God chose the name Muslim for all who truly follow the prophets. The name Muslim in Arabic means “one who submits to the will of God.”
You don't call yourself that but you must mention Muhammad's name to be part of Islam or you can't be a Muslim; so what you deny in words, you do in action. You are not convincing in this area
PBUY
:)
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Burninglight
01-24-2012, 03:01 AM
By that I am not saying you worship a prophet; I just mean you must associate Muhammad's name with Allah or you cannot be a Muslim. I had some typo I meant to say God is one
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Burninglight
01-24-2012, 03:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamicfajr
There are many verses in the New Testament supporting the messengership / prophethood of Jesus. The following are only a few: In Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: “And the crowds said, ‘This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.’ ” In Mark, 6:4, it is stated that Jesus referred to himself as a prophet: “And Jesus said to them, ‘A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.’ ” In the following verses, Jesus is referred to as having been sent as a messenger is sent. In Matthew 10:40, Jesus was purported to have said: “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” In John 17:3, Jesus is also quoted as saying: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” [1]
Jesus doesn't ever deny deity; in fact in this verse He is associating Himself with the only true God by saying to know the only true god and Jesus Christ whom He sent. He sent Jesus not as a messenger but as the message. That is why Jesus said, "No man can come to the father (God) except through me... I am the door... I am the truth, life and the way" Please note He didn;t say I show the way and truth; He sai I am the way and truth. Jesus holds the monopoly on all that is called God as pretains to our salvation according to the Bible! Please don't try to make the Bible say what you want
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Ramadhan
01-24-2012, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
By that I am not saying you worship a prophet; I just mean you must associate Muhammad's name with Allah or you cannot be a Muslim. I had some typo I meant to say God is one
What kind of logic is this?

Are you using the same type of logic that make you believe 3 = 1?
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MustafaMc
01-24-2012, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
By that I am not saying you worship a prophet; I just mean you must associate Muhammad's name with Allah or you cannot be a Muslim. I had some typo I meant to say God is one
No, we don't worship Muhammad (saaws). The testimony of faith declares the Oneness of Allah (swt) and it acknowledges the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). To declare the Oneness of Allah (swt) is the heaviest of deeds. The part of the declaration recognizing the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws) means we accept him as the pattern for how we should live our lives. To eat with the right hand instead of the left is a small example of how Muslims follow the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws).
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Danah
01-24-2012, 02:31 PM
I read that book one year ago and I must admit that it was one of the best books I have ever read. I recommend everyone (Muslims and non-Muslims) to read it, it gets you to the point directly without going into the small details that you don't need to know.
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Burninglight
01-24-2012, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
What kind of logic is this?

Are you using the same type of logic that make you believe 3 = 1?
Tell me what is logical about God always was or being outside of time and able to see the past, present and future all at the same time? Hmm, if you need math, how about 3/3 = 1

:statisfie:statisfie:statisfie
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Burninglight
01-24-2012, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
No, we don't worship Muhammad (saaws). The testimony of faith declares the Oneness of Allah (swt) and it acknowledges the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws). To declare the Oneness of Allah (swt) is the heaviest of deeds. The part of the declaration recognizing the prophethood of Muhammad (saaws) means we accept him as the pattern for how we should live our lives. To eat with the right hand instead of the left is a small example of how Muslims follow the Sunnah of Muhammad (saaws).
Where did I say that you worship Muhammad? the oneness of God acknowledges the prophethood of Jesus. That means that we accept Him as the pattern for how we should live our lives; morever, we follow Him as the pattern for our salvation, but whether we eat with our right or left hand is insignificant as long as you wash your hands before preparing my food. But Jesus said it is not what goes in a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of his mouth!
+o(
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MustafaMc
01-25-2012, 06:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Where did I say that you worship Muhammad? the oneness of God acknowledges the prophethood of Jesus. That means that we accept Him as the pattern for how we should live our lives; morever, we follow Him as the pattern for our salvation, but whether we eat with our right or left hand is insignificant as long as you wash your hands before preparing my food. But Jesus said it is not what goes in a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of his mouth!
+o(
Your statement, "You don't call yourself that (Mohammedan) but you must mention Muhammad's name to be part of Islam or you can't be a Muslim; so what you deny in words, you do in action. You are not convincing in this area" led me to believe that you didn't really believe we don't worship Muhammad (saaws). I am just clarifying the point.

I agree with the rest of your post from a Christian perspective to follow Jesus (as) means to use his life as a pattern for your own. Perhaps we Muslims are a bit too legalistic in our approach to implementing Islam into our lives and don't apply the humanitarian and charitable aspect of Muhammad's (saaws) example as much as we should. I respect the Christian attempt to immitate the example of Jesus (as) as in the parable of the Good Samaritan, but quite honestly only a tiny fraction of what he actually spoke (Injeel) and how he lived has been preserved over time. In contrast, we know so much more about Muhammad's (saaws) life and we believe every letter he spoke of revealed word (Quran) has been preserved.
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Burninglight
02-01-2012, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Finally, a christian who DIRECTLY claimed that God has a son.

Thank you for your forthcoming.

So it is clear that christianity is polytheistic.
How can that be if all Christians believe there is one God? The worship of saints and statues is Catholic. All Biblical Christians don't believe in the worship of any graven image. God is the one that said, "This my beloved Son..." God didn't say "begotten son" He said Beloved Son, and that we should listen to Jesus His Son. We do not call Jesus a partner of God; We call Him the Son of God; He is the author and finisher of our faith.
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MustafaMc
02-02-2012, 12:54 AM
Please, see this post.(edit)
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Hamza Asadullah
02-02-2012, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
How can that be if all Christians believe there is one God? The worship of saints and statues is Catholic. All Biblical Christians don't believe in the worship of any graven image.
So in your eyes are Catholics deviants? Do you deem them as out of the fold of Christianity for their beliefs?

How much percentage of Christianity do "Biblical Christians" make up?
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Hamza Asadullah
02-02-2012, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
God is the one that said, "This my beloved Son..." God didn't say "begotten son" He said Beloved Son, and that we should listen to Jesus His Son. We do not call Jesus a partner of God; We call Him the Son of God; He is the author and finisher of our faith.
The son and the father. That is two Gods not one. If Jesus was the son then he must have a mother who is the mother of God (Mary). That is three Gods not one. There is no such thing as two or three in one. This illogical fallacy does not work. This is also the main reason why so many Christians are leaving your religion each day and even you know in the back of your mind that this just does not make any sense. How long will you ignore these doubts for? Surely they will continue to plague your mind. Open your mind and heart to the truth:

And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and it behooves not the All-merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three'. Refrain. better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him — that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, God suffices for a guardian.

The Messiah will not disdain to be a servant of God, neither the angels who are close to Him. Whosoever disdains to serve Him and waxes proud. He will assuredly muster them to Him, all of them.

As for the believers, who do deeds of righteousness, He will pay them their rewards in full, and He will give them more, of His bounty; as for them who disdain and wax proud, them He will punish with a severe punishment, and they shall not find for them, apart from God, a friend or helper. (4:171-3)
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Burninglight
02-02-2012, 05:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
The son and the father. That is two Gods not one. If Jesus was the son then he must have a mother who is the mother of God (Mary).
Well, that is what the Catholics have done; they made Mary the mother of God, but that is not what the Bible teaches. What the Bible teaches is the way it is for us Christians.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
That is three Gods not one. There is no such thing as two or three in one. This illogical fallacy does not work.
The Bible does not teach us there are three gods. It states that God is one. Jesus doesn't say "I am God worship me" but He does allude to His deity. The Bible states that Jesus is the Word of God. God's word is not His partner or another god any more than my word is my partner or two of me. The Bible states that God is Spirit, It also teaches us that God is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit. He is one. The Lord our God is one. Why God has chosen to make His word and Holiness distinct persons I don't know or understand. No Christian knows the answer and they will look silly trying to explain just like it would be difficult for you to explain how God always was or how He never had a beginning or end or how he can see the past, present and the future at the same time. Athiest will same the same as you "This illogical fallacy does not work" but they would be wrong just as you are now, because what is not possible with man is possible with God.
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Amigo
02-04-2012, 09:29 AM
Everyone expect a father from every fellow man. In fact, everyone expect a father from every man than they expect arms/legs/head on every body. So everyone knows that son-father are more one than the body and its composing parts.
Catholic Faith is just more honest. Samething for motherhood. Everyone knows that mothers don't create, yet some people pretend that 'mother of God' means 'creator of God'. Again, a question of honesty.
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Predator
02-04-2012, 09:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Well, that is what the Catholics have done; they made Mary the mother of God, but that is not what the Bible teaches. What the Bible teaches is the way it is for us Christians.
The Bible does not teach us there are three gods. It states that God is one. Jesus doesn't say "I am God worship me" but He does allude to His deity. The Bible states that Jesus is the Word of God. God's word is not His partner or another god any more than my word is my partner or two of me. The Bible states that God is Spirit, It also teaches us that God is Holy; therefore He is the Holy Spirit. He is one. The Lord our God is one. Why God has chosen to make His word and Holiness distinct persons I don't know or understand. No Christian knows the answer and they will look silly trying to explain just like it would be difficult for you to explain how God always was or how He never had a beginning or end or how he can see the past, present and the future at the same time. Athiest will same the same as you "This illogical fallacy does not work" but they would be wrong just as you are now, because what is not possible with man is possible with God.


Your bible says this:

John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Notice how the Father is being referred to as THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Thus, we are required to restate the formulation of the Trinity as follows:


- The Father is the only true God.
- The Son is truly God.
- The Holy Spirit is truly God.


This is logically impossible. How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well?

If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. Similarly, if we say that the Father is the ONLY true God then we can't say that anyone else (i.e. Son and Holy Spirit) is God as well.

It would also be ludicrous for someone to reformulate the Trinity as follows:

- The Father is the only true God.
- The Son is the only true God.
- The Holy Spirit is the only true God.


Since it would be necessary for atleast two of the above three statements to be false. It is not possible for any one of the persons (Father, Son or Holy Spirit) to be the ONLY true God at the same time when the other two are God as well.

Thus, in light of John 17:3 we see that the concept of Trinity is logically incoherent.

Sure, you Christians can redefine the Trinity in a way that it could be make sense, but the problem with this would be that their understanding of the Trinity is not scripturally based. It would only be the product of your human thoughts. However, in light of the Bible with it being authoritative to most Christians we can safely say that the Trinity is logically incoherent. It is not simply a matter of it being beyond our logic, but AGAINST our logic. If it is AGAINST our logic then that means that it is a false belief.

Muslims, thank Allah Almighty that you are blessed to be following a rational religion - ISLAM
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Burninglight
02-05-2012, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So in your eyes are Catholics deviants? Do you deem them as out of the fold of Christianity for their beliefs?

How much percentage of Christianity do "Biblical Christians" make up?
I was once Catholic. Of course Catholics are considered as part of the percentage of Christianity, but they have adopted a lot of paganism, and therefore corruption has snuck in, but they are trying to reform. I would say IMO, 40-50% of Christanity is made up Catholics and 30-40% protestant and 20-25% Christian cults. So I would say there is only 10% Biblical Christians that were like Jesus' disciples. Bascially true Christianity or Christians are way out numbered by true Muslims.
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Burninglight
02-07-2012, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Predator
This is logically impossible. How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well?

If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. Similarly, if we say that the Father is the ONLY true God then we can't say that anyone else (i.e. Son and Holy Spirit) is God as well.

It would also be ludicrous for someone to reformulate the Trinity as follows:

- The Father is the only true God.
- The Son is the only true God.
- The Holy Spirit is the only true God.
Show me where it says that in the Bible. You can't; can you? You haven't heard me say that either. So, aren't you barking up the wrong tree addressing me with this comment? The Bible doesn't say Jesus is the father and the father is Jesus the Son. But the Bible does say God is Spirit; and since we all agree that God is Holy; we conclude that God is the Holy Spirit. That is only one God. Jesus, one can agrue is the only true word of God from a Biblical perspective. But no where does the Bible state there are 3 gods. Jesus said. "... the Lord our God is one." I will stick to that.

Please don't associate unto to me anything I haven't said or that is not explicitly written in the Bible concerning God. I don't know anything more than what is stated in the Script concerning this mystery. If you say the Bible explaination of God is not logical, well, I would agree, but nothing about God's deity is logical to me such as His power to know everything is not logical or to make a universe that has no end and to create life from dust and clay or light and fire. So please don't play the logic card with us Christians and try to see the Bible through our eyes like I am trying to see the Quran through yours to understand.

Evidence of who Jesus is is stated in His words!
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Hamza Asadullah
02-07-2012, 10:31 PM
Tell us Burning light where Jesus "explicitly" states in the Bible that he is the son of God?
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Burninglight
02-07-2012, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Tell us Burning light where Jesus "explicitly" states in the Bible that he is the son of God?
He does not! But God "explicitly" calls Him His son from heaven in an audible voice in front of witnesses and Jesus implicity states He is God's son. I hope that answers your question
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Burninglight
02-07-2012, 10:47 PM
I notice that my rep power is hurting. Oh, well, all my life I have never been popular
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Hamza Asadullah
02-08-2012, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Tell us Burning light where Jesus "explicitly" states in the Bible that he is the son of God?
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
He does not!
Thank you that has answered my question and you are absolutely correct GOD and Jesus do NOT state ANYWHERE that Jesus was the son of God. You accuse Catholics of that which you yourself are guilty of committing which is clear paganism. If such a concept was true then WHY has NO Prophet ever mentioned of it? Why would God never mention such a "fundamental" concept? Why would Jesus himself not mention such a thing?

The simple fact is that this "fundamental" concept has no basis and no proof in the Bible because it is just not mentioned ANYWHERE, so how can you blindly believe such a concept? Imagine if you took your case to court to try and prove such a concept, the judge and jury would laugh at you. There is no foundations for such a concept in the words of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus.

Open your eyes. How long will you be able to ignore this for? It will continue eating away at you. You only have one life. Then find the truth. Open your heart to Islam. Look into the Qur'an and you will find the light of truth therein.
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Thank you that has answered my question and you are absolutely correct GOD and Jesus do NOT state ANYWHERE that Jesus was the son of God. You accuse Catholics of that which you yourself are guilty of committing which is clear paganism.
I am glad you agree, but did you read all of what I said? You seem to have missed the part where I said that God called Jesus His son explicitly.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
The simple fact is that this "fundamental" concept has no basis and no proof in the Bible because it is just not mentioned ANYWHERE, so how can you blindly believe such a concept? Imagine if you took your case to court to try and prove such a concept, the judge and jury would laugh at you. There is no foundations for such a concept in the words of ANY Prophet, God or Jesus.
You need to go back and read what I wrote. I can back up what I said with Scriptures.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Open your eyes. How long will you be able to ignore this for? It will continue eating away at you. You only have none life. Then find the truth. Open your heart to Islam. Look into the Qur'an and you will find the light of truth therein.
I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to Biblical knowledge
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 03:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Jesus said. "... the Lord our God is one." I will stick to that.
So, according to this verse, jesus is not God.

am I correct?
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-08-2012, 04:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I am glad you agree, but did you read all of what I said? You seem to have missed the part where I said that God called Jesus His son explicitly. You need to go back and read what I wrote. I can back up what I said with Scriptures.
Yes and in the Hebrew Bible, God called other prophets His sons too. This is because in the Hebrew tradition, this term was used in the metaphoric sense only. Therefore, literal translation of this term may have actually led to the misinterpretation of the reality of Jesus and other teachings in Christianity. According to many narrations, Jesus himself called himself a ‘son of man’ rather than ‘son of God’ (Bible, Luke 9:22) and rebuked those who called him so (Bible, Luke: 4:41).

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I appreciate your zeal, but it is not according to Biblical knowledge
Nor is anything that you said backed up by the original teachings of Jesus and God himself. You do not have any solid foundations for your baseless assertions regarding Jesus being the son of God for BHebrew Scholars have confirmed that Jesus was only referred to as a Prophet. Even the Dideche confirmed this.

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” (Revelation 19:10). - Proving he was a Prophet and NOT GOD!


How long will you continue trying to fool yourself? Clearly what you believe is not consistant with the teachings of Jesus or God but that of Paul. How will you continue to reconcile the fact that you know in the back of your mind that God cannot have a partner and this is confirmed by the EXPLICIT words of Jesus and God himself:

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:1-3).

Deuteronomy chapter 6 verses 4 and 5:

"Hear, O Israel! the Lord our God, the Lord alone. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength."

Matthew chapter 4 verse 10 it reads:

Jesus said to him:

"Go away Satan! for it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve only Him'."

Serve ONLY HIM, not serve his "alleged" son.


"But you shall destory their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God)..." (Exodus 34:13-14).

This will keep eating away at you my friend until you accept the truth. Ho long will you keep denying the truth when it is staring you in the face?
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-08-2012, 04:08 AM
Reject Paul the liar for the Bible proves that you must reject such people who claimed to have dreamt of that which ascribes partners to God:

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods' - which you have not known - 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you." (Deuteronomy 13:1-11).
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-08-2012, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

So, according to this verse, jesus is not God.

am I correct?
He has confirmed by his own words that Jesus CANNOT be God alongside God himself. There is no such thing as 2 in 1. How can such a thing exist when it is not supported by ANY teaching of any Prophet, nor was it ever taught by Jesus and nor was it ever taught by God.
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 06:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Reject Paul the liar for the Bible proves that you must reject such people who claimed to have dreamt of that which ascribes partners to God:

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods' - which you have not known - 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you." (Deuteronomy 13:1-11).
I don't know if you realize this, but Christians respect Paul as much as Muslim do Muhammad. Paul does not say there is more than one God. He knows God is one!
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Nor is anything that you said backed up by the original teachings of Jesus and God himself. You do not have any solid foundations for your baseless assertions regarding Jesus being the son of God for BHebrew Scholars have confirmed that Jesus was only referred to as a Prophet. Even the Dideche confirmed this.

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” (Revelation 19:10). - Proving he was a Prophet and NOT GOD!
You quote that out of context. And the angel said[b] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[c] with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

It wasn't Jesus telling him not to worship Him; it was an angel. You won't find Jesus telling anyone that. In fact, he never stopped anyone that fell at his feet!
Reply

Burninglight
02-08-2012, 06:19 AM
good night
Reply

Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't know if you realize this, but Christians respect Paul as much as Muslim do Muhammad.
Finally!

Muslims respect Muhammad (saw) because he was prophet of God, so now you are admitting that christians regard paul as a prophet.

Good!

we are starting from a good base.

Now, Paul taught these principles of christianity that was NEVER taught by Jesus (pbuh) or by ANY previous prophets (pbut):

Trinity
Salvation
Blood atonement
Baptism

So, are you trying to follow actual Jesus (pbuh) teaching which is to worship One God, forgiveness given by God without any price to pay, or are you following paul's teaching of a three-in-one god, salvation, god's blood to pay for human sins etc.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus. the trail that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:2 where Paul was found to be a heretic and was expelled.

Paul also fails the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Paul teaches people away from the need for "keeping God laws" any more.
Yeshua "Jesus" passes the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Jesus primary ministry doctrine is for everyone to always keep the commandments of God. This is also a major theme throughout the Bible for everyone to always keep the commandments of God.
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Hamza Asadullah
02-08-2012, 11:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You quote that out of context. And the angel said[b] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[c] with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

It wasn't Jesus telling him not to worship Him; it was an angel. You won't find Jesus telling anyone that. In fact, he never stopped anyone that fell at his feet!
I never said that particular statement was Jesus. But clearly he confirms tge testimony of Jesus to be that of Prophecy NOT that of a deity or partner of God.

Clearly Jesus DID stop others from worshipping other than God. Why are you sd o eager to worship a man who spent his whole life trying to stop others from.worshipping other than God?

Why have you chosen to ignore all the other verses in my post which prove that Jesus and God himself taught NEVER to ascribe partners with God but to ONLY worship ONE God?
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MustafaMc
02-08-2012, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I don't know if you realize this, but Christians respect Paul as much as Muslim do Muhammad.
Yes, and choose to believe either the gospel that Paul received by direct revelation and that he preached to the Gentiles or the Quran that Muhammad (saaws) received through the Angel Gabriel and to reject the other as false. I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws) and you admitted that you and all Christians follow Paul. That was an exceedingly brave and honest statement!
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
The book of James was written for the trial of Paul at the church of Ephesus. the trail that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:2 where Paul was found to be a heretic and was expelled.

Paul also fails the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Paul teaches people away from the need for "keeping God laws" any more.
Yeshua "Jesus" passes the testing of a true prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 13:1-10. Jesus primary ministry doctrine is for everyone to always keep the commandments of God. This is also a major theme throughout the Bible for everyone to always keep the commandments of God.
What a horrible thought. I have never heard of such a thing. The church of Ephesus? The trinity Paul taught? How can you say such a thing? Where is you source for this serious comment of yours? Paul was a great prophet apostle. All he did was point to Christ Jesus. Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Nor is anything that you said backed up by the original teachings of Jesus and God himself. You do not have any solid foundations for your baseless assertions regarding Jesus being the son of God for BHebrew Scholars have confirmed that Jesus was only referred to as a Prophet. Even the Dideche confirmed this.

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'” (Revelation 19:10). - Proving he was a Prophet and NOT GOD!


How long will you continue trying to fool yourself?
How I am I fooling myself?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
I never said that particular statement was Jesus. But clearly he confirms tge testimony of Jesus to be that of Prophecy NOT that of a deity or partner of God.
Yes, you did. You meant to imply exactly that using that verse above. Anyone can see that. Why deny it? When someone has the testimony of Jesus , they are worshipping God, because they have the spirit of prophecy. That is what the angel is saying. All prophecy is fufilled in Jesus. that is the crux of the verse.
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Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What a horrible thought. I have never heard of such a thing. The church of Ephesus? The trinity Paul taught? How can you say such a thing? Where is you source for this serious comment of yours? Paul was a great prophet apostle. All he did was point to Christ Jesus. Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.
who appointed Paul as apostle?

In fact, paul was the false prophet, according to Jesus (pbuh):

Matt.24:23. “At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christ’s and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and MIRACLES to deceive even the elect (disciplines) - if that were possible. 25. See, I have told you ahead of time (told YOU, disciplines, as a warning). 26. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' (Paul’s "Jesus revelation" on road to Damascus) do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' ("Jesus-revelation" in prison) do not believe it (Paul "prophesied" for example about persecutions of Christians in future, that were already reality and so not prophecy at all, and even claimed to be wittness to resurrection of Jesus, so God soon killed him as He promised to do in Deut.18:20-22 for ALL false prophets)….28. Wherever the corpse is (new religion), there the vultures will gather (satan strikes).”

paul claimed to have done signs and miracles:

2.Corinth.12:12. “When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many SIGNS and wonders and MIRACLES among you.”

Paul did not pulled the bible together, in fact, he was opposed to the teachings of Jesus (pbuh), when Jesus commanded to keep all commandments, paul said to do away with the commandments. paulk was even opposed by the apostles.
Also, half of NT are the words of paul, while less than 18% of NT is direct saying and action of jesus (pbuh), so yes, you take the words of paul as more important than Jesus (pbuh).

We have again and again provided you with direct statements by jesus that he is not God, but you decide to interpret some vague statements that are interpreted by paul in his epistles that jesus was god who came down to earth to die.
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

So, according to this verse, jesus is not God.

am I correct?
According to that verse God is ONE. I never said on this forum that Jesus is God. I only say what I know that God said or what the Bible says about Jesus. Jesus never said I am God, but he made some strong claims about Himself that was enough to have the Jews think he was claiming equality with God and to accuse Him of blasphemey and to stone Him. You must come to you own conclusion. Iam not going explicitly state something that the Bible doesn't do. But I can tell you the Bible prophecied that a son is given and the govenment shall be on His shoulder and he will be called Mighty God... and much more. Everyone will be judged based on how they see Jesus. I can tell you the Bible unequivocally states that he died and rose and He is called the son of God. If you are asking me if I believe this? the answer is yes, but I never stated that Jesus is God the father. But Jesus did tell Philip "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" Everyone has to come to thier own conclusions about what to do with Jesus /Yeshua in their lives.
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Ramadhan
02-08-2012, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
According to that verse God is ONE. I never said on this forum that Jesus is God
So Jesus is not God.

Good.

Then why do you worship Jesus if you believe he is not God?

in Bible, God (swt) has repeatedly commanded to ONLY worship GOD (swt).
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Burninglight
02-08-2012, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
So Jesus is not God.

Good.

Then why do you worship Jesus if you believe he is not God?

in Bible, God (swt) has repeatedly commanded to ONLY worship GOD (swt).
Hold on there. I feel like you are trying to trap me. I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either! The angels are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus
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Ramadhan
02-09-2012, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Hold on there. I feel like you are trying to trap me.
why do I have to trap you?
You are trapping yourself in your own imagination.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either!
So what are you saying here?
Is Jesus God or not?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
The angels are higher than humans and they were commanded to worship Jesus
What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.
I use Scripture when someone challenges what I say. Angels prostrating before Adam is in the Quran not the Bible. So you cannot question me based on something you believe. So you admit that angels were commanded to worship Adam judging from your question. So why do you have such a hard time with worshipping the last Adam (Jesus)?? You might tell me that you should only worship and serve Allah. If that is true why were angels commanded to worship Allah's creation in the Quran?
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
why do I have to trap you?
You are trapping yourself in your own imagination.
uhmm
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Originally Posted by Burninglight
I didn't say Jesus was God and Jesus didn't say He was God, but he doesn't deny deity either!
So what are you saying here?
Is Jesus God or not?
You must come to your own conclusion and not ask me that which I have no right to say to you, but I can tell you He is the Son of God. I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him. I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?

lol, maybe you should ask Richard Burnish ;D
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Tyrion
02-09-2012, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him. I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?
Are the scriptures really clear on that matter? Are the scriptures even trustworthy when it comes to this? I don't think so. Don't believe the Bible just because the Bible says to believe in it. Faith without reason is blind... Blind faith is dangerous.
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Ramadhan
02-09-2012, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I use Scripture when someone challenges what I say.
Then quote the verses where people and angels worship Jesus (pbuh) as you christians are worshiping him

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Angels prostrating before Adam is in the Quran not the Bible. So you cannot question me based on something you believe. So you admit that angels were commanded to worship Adam judging from your question.
Did I say that angels worship Adam (pbuh)?

Please do not twist your words, I am sure a "true biblical christian" would NEVER twist anyone's words.

I said angels were told to prostrate to adam (pbuh).

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
So why do you have such a hard time with worshipping the last Adam (Jesus)??
Before you accuse me of twisting your words, let me ask you:
does this mean you believe that Jesus is the last Adam?

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You might tell me that you should only worship and serve Allah. If that is true why were angels commanded to worship Allah's creation in the Quran?
You are making false statements about Islam AGAIN.
Please show me Qur'an verses where Allah told angels to worship Allah's creation?
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Ramadhan
02-09-2012, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
You must come to your own conclusion and not ask me that which I have no right to say to you, but I can tell you He is the Son of God
And I have shown you that according to bible, God has plenty of sons.

so you claim you have no right to answer this question: "is jesus god"?

As you keep claiming to go back to the scripture, then please tell me which biblical verses that tell you that you cannot answer the question whether jesus is god or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I can tell you that the Scriptures say we must honor the son the same as the father for if we don't, we don't honor the father that sent Him.
Can you please tell us the whole passage why Jesus said that?
does the scriptures tell you to worship jesus as you worship God?
Please give evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I have come to my conclusion of who Jesus is to me, but I cannot speak for you by answering your question that is designed to trap me, but who is really being trapped here by their imagination?
Why would I need to trap you?
You claim to have the truth, but why do you keep secret your truth?

in Islam, we are open to ALL questions, we do not shy away from questions. In fact, before someone wants to revert to Islam, we encourage them to ask as many questions as they want, just ask any reverts in this forum.

But it seems in christianity there are questions that are not allowed to be asked or to be answered.
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Ramadhan
02-09-2012, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Paul pulls the Bible together and makes it make sense.
Not true. the bible versions that exist today went thorugh hundreds of years of editing, and the primary source was council of nicea in the FOURTH century who decided which types of gospels that conformed the traditional pagan belief of latin society and it was constantine who burned, detroyed and exterminated hundreds of gospels and true followers of jesus (pbuh) who did not conform to their twisted belief.

even today bible is still undergoing editing process, evidenced by thosands and thousands of different bibles.

apparently you prefer the words of men rather than words of god (swt).
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 05:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Are the scriptures really clear on that matter? Are the scriptures even trustworthy when it comes to this? I don't think so. Don't believe the Bible just because the Bible says to believe in it. Faith without reason is blind... Blind faith is dangerous
It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Not true. the bible versions that exist today went thorugh hundreds of years of editing, and the primary source was council of nicea in the FOURTH century who decided which types of gospels that conformed the traditional pagan belief of latin society and it was constantine who burned, detroyed and exterminated hundreds of gospels and true followers of jesus (pbuh) who did not conform to their twisted belief.

even today bible is still undergoing editing process, evidenced by thosands and thousands of different bibles.

apparently you prefer the words of men rather than words of god (swt).
What do you believe of what Jesus said in the Bible?
Reply

Burninglight
02-09-2012, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
What do you mean by "angels are higher than humans"?
Angels were also commanded by God (swt) to prostrate to Adam (pbuh).
So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?

You know, for a self proclaimed "true biblical christian", you rarely use scriptural verses in these discussions.
It doesn't say you should worship Adam in the Quran, but you implied it unequivocally in your question to me. You show by your question that you understood prostrate to mean worship. Here are your words in the question as referring to the word prostrate: "So shouldn't you worship Adam (pbuh) as well?" I have twisted nothing friend. You seem to be doing enough of it for the both of us. Does it not say in the Quran that Angels were also commanded by God to prostrate to Adam? It doesn't say that in the Bible! If it is not in the Quran then were did you get that from?
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Tyrion
02-09-2012, 06:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.
Faith should be based in some sort of reason... It seems to me that you're admitting to blindly believing in Christianity. If that's the case, then there's really no point in anyone pursuing discussion with you.

Peace
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 06:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Faith should be based in some sort of reason... It seems to me that you're admitting to blindly believing in Christianity. If that's the case, then there's really no point in anyone pursuing discussion with you.

Peace
Of course there is a reason, but we don't put our faith in human reason. We put it in God. It is not logical that God cannot keep His word preserved in heaven forever like he promised in the Bible. Man's power to corrupt is not greater than God's power to preserve His word. Based on this reason, I have put all my faith in the Scripture that came before. I have faith that God is able to keep His word by preserving it! And that word speaks of Jesus being God's son who died and rose for the salvation of my soul. I have faith in that. If you call that blind faith and no point to discuss with me, that is your choice.
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MustafaMc
02-09-2012, 10:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
It depends on who you put your faith in. If someone can reason it out than, he doesn't need faith. Faith is the substance ot the things hoped for and evidence of the things not seen. Travelling by God's grace through faith is better that a known path. To me, I have faith in Christ's work on the cross. I have put all my eggs in that one basket! I haven't seen anything top that yet.
All religions by their very nature are based on faith. I put my faith in One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal and that He revealed the Quran and the Islamic way of life to Muhammad (saaws). I believe that I obey Allah (swt) when I follow a sunnah of Muhammad (saaws). I trust the Quran when it promise Gardens of Paradise to those who believe and do good deeds. You put your faith in an event that I believe never happened - a myth which is an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution - and in a doctrine that was not taught by Jesus (as).
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MustafaMc
02-09-2012, 10:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

Faith should be based in some sort of reason... It seems to me that you're admitting to blindly believing in Christianity. If that's the case, then there's really no point in anyone pursuing discussion with you.

Peace
Assalamu alaikum, of course he continues to blindly believe in Christianity and the many false things about Islam and Muslims that he came here believing from the start despite many convincing arguments to the contrary. Though they have ears, they do not hear. Though they have eyes, they do not see.
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Hamza Asadullah
02-09-2012, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
Of course there is a reason, but we don't put our faith in human reason. We put it in God. It is not logical that God cannot keep His word preserved in heaven forever like he promised in the Bible. Man's power to corrupt is not greater than God's power to preserve His word. Based on this reason, I have put all my faith in the Scripture that came before. I have faith that God is able to keep His word by preserving it! And that word speaks of Jesus being God's son who died and rose for the salvation of my soul. I have faith in that. If you call that blind faith and no point to discuss with me, that is your choice.
If you claim to want to put your faith in the words of God and Jesus then why do you put more faith and weight in the words and teachings of Paul than in the words and teachings of God and Jesus?

I asked you earlier on to prove that Jesus is the son of God in the "explicit" words of God and Jesus because if this is such a fundamental concept then surely Jesus and God would have mentioned it "just once at least". But you confirmed they havent! We ALL know they havent.

So why do you not put your trust in the words of God and Jesus like you have stated? Why do you disregard their words and teachings for that of Paul who NEVER even met Jesus. Your contradicting yourself. Trust in the words of God and DENOUNCE this utter blasphemy which you know is eating away at you deep down.
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Ramadhan
02-09-2012, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What do you believe of what Jesus said in the Bible?
Please do not change the subject and turned it around.

If you have the truth as you claim, surely you can address all my points and questions.
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
If you claim to want to put your faith in the words of God and Jesus then why do you put more faith and weight in the words and teachings of Paul than in the words and teachings of God and Jesus?
For me not to listen to Paul, that would be like you not listening to Muhammad. Doesn't the Quran say to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
I asked you earlier on to prove that Jesus is the son of God in the "explicit" words of God and Jesus because if this is such a fundamental concept then surely Jesus and God would have mentioned it "just once at least". But you confirmed they havent! We ALL know they havent.
I have quoted what God said in the Bible. In an audible voice, God said Jesus was His son. I gave you proof. Have you not heard, have you not seen, has it not enter your heart that God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him." Who do you think God was talking about if not Jesus? How much more explicit of a statement can there be?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So why do you not put your trust in the words of God and Jesus like you have stated? Why do you disregard their words and teachings for that of Paul who NEVER even met Jesus. Your contradicting yourself. Trust in the words of God and DENOUNCE this utter blasphemy which you know is eating away at you deep down.
I do listen to God, and I don't disregard the prophets words. Saul was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damacus when the Lord knocked Him off his high horse. Jesus said, "Why do you persecute me Saul?" Saul said, "Who are you Lord?" Jesus said, "I AM Jesus whom you persecute!" Well, maybe he didn't see Jesus, but he certainly heard and felt His power! Or he did see Jesus as a bright light that blinded him.

I have heard a testimony of a Muslim that had a similar experience as Paul, and he converted to Chrisitanity as a result. The last thing Paul wanted was to be a Chrisitan; that is what makes Paul's testimony so powerful.
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Burninglight
02-09-2012, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Assalamu alaikum, of course he continues to blindly believe in Christianity and the many false things about Islam and Muslims that he came here believing from the start despite many convincing arguments to the contrary. Though they have ears, they do not hear. Though they have eyes, they do not see.
What false things do I believe. Plz spell them out, because hopefully if I believed something false, and it had been proved to me as false; then, I don't believe that anymore. Why would I want to believe something false about Islam. If I wanted that, I wouldn't be here. You say I follow Christianity blindly. Well that sword is double edged and cuts both ways friend. And that verse you quoted is from the Bible, and i agree with it. Since you are quoting Scripture have you looked at Gal. 3: 1-10?
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Ramadhan
02-10-2012, 12:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
What false things do I believe. Plz spell them out, because hopefully if I believed something false,
Did you actually read what all of us have written here?

1. as br. MustafaMC said, you believe many false things about Islam and muslim and you keep on writing them, and I keep on refuting them with evidence.
Are you denying this now? I can copy and paste my previous posts and your previous posts you know.

2. Other members and I have given you countless biblical verses as well as simple logic and yet you choose to ignore. If you deny this, I can point you to many posts that I and others have made where you chose not to address many of the points.
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Ramadhan
02-10-2012, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
For me not to listen to Paul, that would be like you not listening to Muhammad. Doesn't the Quran say to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"
God commanded us to obey Muhammad (saw)

Paul commanded you to obey him.

So, to you, Paul = God.

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever commanded you to obey Paul?
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-10-2012, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
For me not to listen to Paul, that would be like you not listening to Muhammad. Doesn't the Quran say to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah? Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ"
God commanded us to follow the way of the Prophet (Peace be upon him). But can you quote for me where in the Bible God commanded you and Christians to follow Paul?


format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I have quoted what God said in the Bible. In an audible voice, God said Jesus was His son. I gave you proof. Have you not heard, have you not seen, has it not enter your heart that God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him." Who do you think God was talking about if not Jesus? How much more explicit of a statement can there be?
Proof? I asked you for the explicit words of God. DIRECT REVELATION. NOT from the words of random men who Biblical scholars even admit to not knowing for sure their true identities nor when they were writen. Take such false evidence to court and they would laugh at you.

Also let us look at how many sons God has in the Bible. Psalms 2:7 says "The Lord has said to me,you are my son, today I have begotten you".

Are we talking about Jesus Christ?

NO! We’re talking about David.

The doctrine of Jesus being begotten not made, is not just Jesus Christ was begotten not made, but he was the only Begotten son of God. How can you have Jesus Christ be the only begotten son of God when we have David many generations before being told he was the only begotten son of God?

The bible has sons by the tons. You forgot to mention that didnt you? MANY passages speak of the sons of Gods, and the children of God. Sons of God were known as metaphorical issues and not a literal one. But you seem to take Jesus being the son of God literally but not when others are called sons, daughteres and children of God. The Jews saw themselves as the children of God. Sons and daughters of God. That was the status they conceived for themselves. This was a metaphorical issue and not a literal one, so why is it ONLY literal with Jesus?

What about David the only begotten son of God? What about Jesus being the son of David? But i thought he was the son of God? No wait up there is now a conflict between David and God on who fathered Jesus. Come on you cant be serious!

format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
I do listen to God, and I don't disregard the prophets words. Saul was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damacus when the Lord knocked Him off his high horse. Jesus said, "Why do you persecute me Saul?" Saul said, "Who are you Lord?" Jesus said, "I AM Jesus whom you persecute!" Well, maybe he didn't see Jesus, but he certainly heard and felt His power! Or he did see Jesus as a bright light that blinded him.


If you claim to listen to God then WHERE has he commanded you to obey Paul? Where has Jesus commanded you to obey Paul? Show us all please............

I have heard a testimony of a Muslim that had a similar experience as Paul, and he converted to Chrisitanity as a result. The last thing Paul wanted was to be a Chrisitan; that is what makes Paul's testimony so powerful.
Yes you may give me the testimony of one or two Muslims who have turned to Christianity i don't doubt that. But i can give you THOUSANDS of testimonys FROM Christians who accepted Islam. So let us not play the convert game because there is NO doubt that countless more Christians are denouncing their religion and accepting Islam than the other way around.
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Burninglight
02-10-2012, 07:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
So let us not play the convert game because there is NO doubt that countless more Christians are denouncing their religion and accepting Islam than the other way around.
It depends on what type of Christian they are
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Burninglight
02-10-2012, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Psalms 2:7 says "The Lord has said to me,you are my son, today I have begotten you".

Are we talking about Jesus Christ?

NO! We’re talking about David.

The doctrine of Jesus being begotten not made, is not just Jesus Christ was begotten not made, but he was the only Begotten son of God. How can you have Jesus Christ be the only begotten son of God when we have David many generations before being told he was the only begotten son of God?

The bible has sons by the tons.
It sound like you are quoting Deedat. Yes, Abraham has sons by the tons and so dose God., but Israel being the only begotten finds it fufillment in Jesus, but begotten might not be the best translation. Beloved son is better. God said of Jesus this is my bleoved son in whom I am well pleased. God said that of no other prophet; other prophets have fallen short of being prefect but not Jesus. He was the only one without sin. He was the only prefect lamb without spot or wringle.
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MustafaMc
02-10-2012, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
The bible has sons by the tons. You forgot to mention that didnt you? MANY passages speak of the sons of Gods, and the children of God. Sons of God were known as metaphorical issues and not a literal one. But you seem to take Jesus being the son of God literally but not when others are called sons, daughteres and children of God. The Jews saw themselves as the children of God. Sons and daughters of God. That was the status they conceived for themselves. This was a metaphorical issue and not a literal one, so why is it ONLY literal with Jesus?
Just like my argument about Muslims not being exclusively responsible for 9/11 and that Jesus taught forgiveness of sins not the doctrine of atonement made up by Paul and other founders of Christianity, this person is incapable or unwilling to seeing what we see. Of course we see the title, 'son of God' metaphorically and not literally. No Christian can explain to you in what sense of the word that Jesus was the 'Son of God' implying a difference from others being the 'sons of God' and that he was literally God with us. Contrast the Christian view toward Jesus who they see is the 'Word of God' and our view toward the Quran that we believe is the literal Word of Allah (swt). Even though we respect and honor the Quran as Allah's uncreated Word, neither I nor any Muslim who I know worships the Quran as 'Allah with us' along with Allah (swt).
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Burninglight
02-10-2012, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
this person is incapable or unwilling to seeing what we see. Of course we see the title, 'son of God' metaphorically and not literally.
If you are referring to me, I do see perfectly how you see "son of God." I know that even Muslims leaders have no problems seeing Jesus as the son of God metaporically or in the general sense that all are son's of God. Please don't patronize me in the eyes of others. It is not that I am unwilling to see. I am not any more unwilling to see than a Muslims is unwilling to believe that Jesus died and rose again. So your comments are really unfair about "This person" If you were once a Christians in the true sense of the word, you should have known this.
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Ramadhan
02-11-2012, 06:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
If you are referring to me, I do see perfectly how you see "son of God." I know that even Muslims leaders have no problems seeing Jesus as the son of God metaporically or in the general sense that all are son's of God. Please don't patronize me in the eyes of others. It is not that I am unwilling to see. I am not any more unwilling to see than a Muslims is unwilling to believe that Jesus died and rose again. So your comments are really unfair about "This person" If you were once a Christians in the true sense of the word, you should have known this.
You keep throwing lies in this forum.

please refer to my previous posts.
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Hamza Asadullah
02-11-2012, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
If you are referring to me, I do see perfectly how you see "son of God." I know that even Muslims leaders have no problems seeing Jesus as the son of God metaporically or in the general sense that all are son's of God. Please don't patronize me in the eyes of others. It is not that I am unwilling to see. I am not any more unwilling to see than a Muslims is unwilling to believe that Jesus died and rose again. So your comments are really unfair about "This person" If you were once a Christians in the true sense of the word, you should have known this.
The difference is that our beliefs as Muslims are FULLY 100% backed up by the Qur'an which is 100% divine revelation DIRECTLY from God. Where as you "allege" that your beliefs are backed up by the Bible but how much of the Bible is 100% divine revelation directly from God? Certainly NOT the new Testament. The new testament according to its own translators and theologians, were:

Written by mysterious men.
Written by an unknown number of men.
Written in unknown places.
Written in unknown dates.

Paul never even met Jesus Christ in person while the latter was on earth. How could you trust a false account of his when he claimed that Jesus appeared to him while he was on his was to Damascus after the alleged "crucifixion" of whom you claim was God.

NONE of the disciples, even in the false writings attributed to them, ever claimed that their writings were inspired or Divine.

The Bible's own theologians even admit that the bible contains "fictions", its original manuscripts "had been lost", and contains "fairy tails and fables".

And, it is also an indisputable fact that the Bible:

Is filled with ample contradictions, man's alterations, corruption, and false scientific absurdities.

Is written in third-party narrations, which is why we find in all of the gospels' titles "This gospel according to....", and countless verses that speak about the disciples and about their activities in third-party narrations which proves that the books and gospels were certainly not written by them.

This also means that much gossips and exaggerations and fabrications were made up and inserted into the books and gospels. So even if, for instance, some people back then thought that Jesus was crucified, they in reality never actually saw it. It could very well be that they've only heard about it from a neighboring town and believed it. There are certainly in the books and gospels:

Too much gossips.

Too wide of date gaps by the decades between when the supposed event took place and when it was actually written, by hand, in the corrupt gospels.

Too many unknown people wrote the stories.

Too many Prophecies in the Old Testament that promise that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will be saved from the crucifixion.

Too many mistranslations and desperate misinterpretations in Isaiah 53 and elsewhere.

This also means that the books and gospels were definitely NOT inspired by GOD Almighty. Paul, again, even admits that he had his delusions and doubts.

So now based on what objective grounds should we reject the claim about the Bible's New Testament's accounts being mostly false and fabricated by men? Take such evidence to court and they would laugh at you.

The fact is that the "fundamentals" of your faith are written in books which were written by mysterious men. Written by an unknown number of men. Written in unknown places. Written in unknown dates. How could God nor Jesus NEVER talk about the fundamentals?

Why would the fundamentals of your faith such as the divinity of Jesus, the trinity, the blood atonement of Christ and others not even be spoken about by God or Jesus even once?

How long will you remain in this state of deep sleep? When will you finally open your eyes to the truth?

I pray God leads you to the truth. Ameen
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Burninglight
02-12-2012, 12:22 AM
sigh
:exhausted
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