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Ulysses
10-10-2006, 10:44 PM
Greetings to all. I was led here by a member of your faith who indicated that I might find reasonable and moderate Islamic views being espoused. I am eager to see for myself.

First of all, I would like to have a custom avatar. Here is the image I would like to use. I could not find how to create a custom avatar.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8180/ulyssesjd8.jpg]Ulysses

I have had a look at the site rules, and as a non-Muslim, I am wondering if I am actually welcome here, given that what I might have to say might not be in line with one or two of the stated site rules. I seek clarification and edification on this matter from the site members, administrators, moderators, owners.

15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.
I do not follow a "faith." I have chosen Buddhist as my way of life, for the simple reason that Vipassana Buddhism is the best approximation of my spiritiual, cosmological, and philosophical views which I have encountered in my lifelong survey of the fundamental ethos comprising each of the major world religions. I will not promote Islam, on this site or anywhere else. I have no need or desire to attack Islam, but I also have no desire to see it spread. I have no desire to see any religion attacked, or promoted. I would prefer to see awareness, knowledge, and critical thinking promoted personally. At times, this may involve what a devout Muslim would interprete as being "promoting" a belief sysmte other than Islam, be it a religion, or other worldview.

So, according to the purpose of this site, am I already at odds with the rules by the very nature of my relationship to the stated purpose of the site? Have the founders of this site stopped to consider that having a rule that no religion other than Islam will be promoted constitutes a fundamentally Islamocentric, and some might argue, unacceptably partisan position to take in a globalized world in which Islam only comprises some 20% of humanity?

I look forward to discussing this matter with you all.

As a newcomer to your site, one who brings an alternative perspective to that of a follower of Muhammed, I would propose that you eliminate, or at least change this rule so as to more appropriately reflect a tolerant, pluralistic stance, as is only fitting in the age of modernity.

If you really want to promote the spread of awareness and understanding to non-Muslims about your worldview, then stating that it is against the rules to promote anything but your worldview during discourse with the other will result in one net effect: the elimination of discourse, and the homogenization of all participants to comprise only believers. It would seem to me to be shame and indeed misleading to state that the purpose of the site is to promote understanding when a rule exists that nothing except Islam can be promoted on the site. Am I being unfair in reaching this conclusion?

16. No attacks against Islam in any form will be tolerated on this discussion board. This includes, but is not limited to attacks on the Qur'an, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), his family and companions, or any other prophets in Islam, or Islamic scholars, past or present. While some may complain that there is "freedom of speech" please remember this is a privately owned discussion board which was created and is maintained to serve the purpose of promoting Islam. What is allowed in speech is determined by the Admin and not the member.
I have some similar questions and discomforts with respect to this rule. What exactly constitutes an attack? Was the set of questions and suggestions I posed above about a culturally relativistic view an attack? If so, then your rules for discourse with non-Muslims have already eliminated the possibility of discourse with non-Muslims.

I would respectfully submit that, these two previous rules need to be reconsidered if the true purpose of this site is to promote understanding, mutual friendship, peace, and coexistence, and not instead to simply prosletyze and sooth the psyches of the Muslim community.

18. Do not say "Islam says X" unless your position is based upon sound evidence - which means the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Always cite your sources. If quoting the Qur'an, give soorah (chapter) and ayah (verse) number. For ahadeeth, you must the name of the collection, volume/book number and hadeeth number. Unless you quoting from an agreed-upon authenthic collection (i.e. Bukharee, Muslim) you must also provide authenthic information.
Again, I have to say that, this rule seems to place all rational and critical discourse about your religion out of reach, by invalidating any claims about Islamic actions, words or behaviors unless those phenomenae can be verified through reference to your Koranic scriptures. If I interprete this rule correctly, it means that, I am only allowed to make observations about the behavior of Islamic persons, social trends in Islamic societies, or values, movements, and historical events in Islamic societies if I can show that these events are verified by things written in Islamic scriptures? So if I quote let us say, Saddam Hussein, who is a secular Muslim, or Amadinejad (the leader of Iran) who is a devout Shia Muslim, but I cannot show how what they have done or said is representative of the words in your Koran, then those quotes are invalidated? This last rule is a bit confusing, so I look forward to having it clarified.
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Ulysses
10-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Ah, I see now a bit more about the structure of this site. I am not allowed to post in many forums until I have been sanctioned by a moderator. Well it seems fairly predictable then, that me, my avatar, and my questions will be summarily excommunicated from this site?

We shall see I suppose.

Now let me see if I can find any place other than my introduction thread in which my words will be allowed to be viewed by others before having been sanctioned by the powers that regulate this site (whomever they may be!?! :rollseyes )
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-10-2006, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
Ah, I see now a bit more about the structure of this site. I am not allowed to post in many forums until I have been sanctioned by a moderator. Well it seems fairly predictable then, that me, my avatar, and my questions will be summarily excommunicated from this site?

We shall see I suppose.

Now let me see if I can find any place other than my introduction thread in which my words will be allowed to be viewed by others before having been sanctioned by the powers that regulate this site (whomever they may be!?! :rollseyes )
Welcome to the Forums.

That is a precaution that is taken because of incidents that have occured in the past. As soon as your post is reviewed it will be allowed to go through without anything being changed. This pre-cautionary step is only on a few forums, Discover Islam, Link Exchange etc.

Also, you will reach full membership abilities when you hit 50 posts. :)

Regards.
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Ulysses
10-10-2006, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed
Welcome to the Forums.

That is a precaution that is taken because of incidents that have occured in the past. As soon as your post is reviewed it will be allowed to go through without anything being changed. This pre-cautionary step is only on a few forums, Discover Islam, Link Exchange etc.

Also, you will reach full membership abilities when you hit 50 posts. :)

Regards.
Thank you Ahmed. It is a pleasure.
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Ulysses
10-10-2006, 11:32 PM
Hmmm, I'm not seeing a way to edit posts, else I would add this additional part to that last post. Perhaps that is a function that will be added later when I have attained full status.

In any event, Ahmed, I should have asked you, do you have any responses to the questions I posed about the site rules being ethnocentric and open to a mono-listic interpretation?
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therebbe
10-11-2006, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
Hmmm, I'm not seeing a way to edit posts, else I would add this additional part to that last post. Perhaps that is a function that will be added later when I have attained full status.

In any event, Ahmed, I should have asked you, do you have any responses to the questions I posed about the site rules being ethnocentric and open to a mono-listic interpretation?
When you reach fifty posts you will have the ability to edit messages and send personal messages to other members. Currently you can only receive them.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-11-2006, 12:18 AM
Heyyy welcome to LI.
Hope it will remain very beneficial for you :)
Peace
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Muhammad
10-11-2006, 12:42 AM
Greetings Ulysses,

Welcome to the forum; it is a pleasure to have you on board. Thank you for taking the time to read our rules.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
First of all, I would like to have a custom avatar. Here is the image I would like to use. I could not find how to create a custom avatar.
I think limited members are able to use custom avatars, so all you need to do is go to your UserCP, click on 'Edit Avatar' along the left sidebar, and select the option 'Use Custom Avatar', where you can put the link of your desired choice.

It would seem to me to be shame and indeed misleading to state that the purpose of the site is to promote understanding when a rule exists that nothing except Islam can be promoted on the site. Am I being unfair in reaching this conclusion?
Yes, I believe that you have reached in inaccurate conclusion and I hope to explain why.

We welcome people of all faiths and backgrounds on this site. Regardless of the percentage of Muslims with regards to the global population, this forum aims to teach people about the message of Islam, that is, according to our two fundamental sources: the Qur'an and Prophetic teachings (Sunnah). It is therefore our right to guide the direction of the forum towards one that will help us achieve this goal, otherwise it would no longer be an Islamic forum but rather a multi-disciplinary one.

This does not mean, however, that we are intolerant of other people's opinions and beliefs; on the contrary, we welcome interfaith dialogue as you will note from our Comparitive Religion forum, where all kinds of religions have been discussed and non-Muslims have even created threads to educate Muslims about their own religions. See for example:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...wered-jew.html?
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...istianity.html?

As a result, and as far as I am aware, we have rarely had a case where someone has violated the rule in question. I think the only thing forbidden by the rule is someone using the forum for their own personal gains, where neither discussion nor understanding are hoped to be achieved. We are not forcing anyone to accept Islam, and we welcome questions and discussions about it from all people (though bear in mind that we do not claim to be scholars).

I hope it is quite clear then, that there is no such thing as "elimination of discourse" on this forum; the case is quite the contrary. Critical thinking, awareness and knowledge - as you mentioned - are always promoted.




What exactly constitutes an attack? Was the set of questions and suggestions I posed above about a culturally relativistic view an attack?
I think once you take a look around the forum and begin to participate in threads, you will soon gain an understanding of what our rules imply. I did not view the above as an attack on Islam, since an attack includes defaming and abusing its teachings. Our FAQ reads:
If the entire body of rules were to be summed up in one word, it would be: respect. Respect for Islam, respect for fellow members and respect for the community as an entity. Remember, a little common sense goes a long way.
If I interprete this rule correctly, it means that, I am only allowed to make observations about the behavior of Islamic persons, social trends in Islamic societies, or values, movements, and historical events in Islamic societies if I can show that these events are verified by things written in Islamic scriptures? So if I quote let us say, Saddam Hussein, who is a secular Muslim, or Amadinejad (the leader of Iran) who is a devout Shia Muslim, but I cannot show how what they have done or said is representative of the words in your Koran, then those quotes are invalidated? This last rule is a bit confusing, so I look forward to having it clarified.
Using 'unIslamic' behaviours such as those of terrorism and violence to represent Islam would be spreading lies about it. For this reason, we do not tolerate promotion of such ideas and concepts (for more details, you may wish to refer to the rules pertaining to posting in the World Affairs section: http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...s-section.html ). I don't think the rule prevents you from having your own opinions and observations of such people as those quoted above, but rather it is saying that for a teaching to be claimed as one from Islam, there needs to be sound evidence and not conjecture.

I hope this has helped to clarify your concerns. Again, perhaps the best way to understand how we operate is to have a read through some of the content in the Comparitive Religion/World Affairs sections and see how other people have been using the forum.

Thank you for your concern regarding our rules and have a pleasant stay :)

Peace.

P.S. For a list of the restrictions of limited members, please see:
http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/limi...imited_mem_ber
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 01:19 AM
Thank you so much for the detailed and edifying clarification to my questions Muhammad. Your interpretations are quite pleasing. With these matters clarified more fully, I look forward to many beneficial dialogues on the site.
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The Ruler
10-11-2006, 10:44 AM
:sl:

:welcome:...enjoy ur stay!! :) :)

:w:
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duskiness
10-11-2006, 10:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
I have had a look at the site rules, and as a non-Muslim, I am wondering if I am actually welcome here, given that what I might have to say might not be in line with one or two of the stated site rules.
Namaste Ulysses. :)
now you should feel welcomed ;) LI forum has it's local "dhimmis", usually found on Comperative religion and World Affairs. We have Sikhs, Buddhists (Tremble), Atheists/agnostics and Christians.
oh...i've noticed you made your way to comperative religions". so see you there! :)
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~Stranger~
10-11-2006, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
הקוראן לא נכון
do u have proof??
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Khayal
10-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Hi

:welcome: to the Forum



.
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Najiullah
10-15-2006, 07:27 PM
WELCOME TO THE FORUM
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