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islamicfajr
10-10-2006, 11:43 PM






A Religion of Terror؟



A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques . Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.

Jihad

The word jihad sends shivers down the spines of many Westerners. They readily equate this term with violence and oppression. However, it must be said that the meaning of jihad, as a 'holy war', is something which is totally foreign and not from Islam. If anything, such a description belongs more so to Christianity and its adherents. It was terms like this which were used to justify the slaughter and pillage of towns and cities during the crusades by the Christians. By simply looking into the sources of Islam, one is able to know that the true meaning of jihad is to strive/make effort in the way of Allah. Thus striving in the way of Allah can be both peaceful and physical. The Prophet Muhammed (saws) said:

"The best jihad is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic"

In the Qur'an, Allah also says:

"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (the Qur'an)" (Surah Al-Furqan 25:52)

By controlling and fighting against ones desires, the Muslims can then also physically exert themselves in the path of Allah. It is this physical or combative jihad which receives so much criticism. Because of the sheer ignorance of this type of jihad Islam is regarded as terror, and Muslims are regarded as terrorists. However, the very purpose of this physical jihad is to raise the word of Allah uppermost. By doing this, it liberates and emancipates all those who are crying out for freedom all over the world. If the likes of the pacifists of this world had their way, then the world would indeed be full of anarchy and mischief. The combative jihad seeks to correct this as Allah says in the Qur'an:
"And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would be full of mischief. But Allah is full of bounty to the worlds"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:251)

Such would be the corruption on this Earth if there had never been a combative jihad that Allah says:

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"
(Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

This combative jihad being both defensive and offensive, is something which is commanded by Allah upon the Muslims. Through this command the oppressed and weak are rescued from the tyranny of the world:
"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

Anyone who knows the early history of Islam, will know that all those nations and empires which came under the fold of Islam were indeed previously oppressed. When the companions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) went out for the offensive jihad against the Egyptians, the Persians and the Romans, we find that the people did not resist against them at all. Rather, they accepted Islam on such a scale, that it is inconceivable that the jihad of Islam could be anything other then a liberation for these people; a liberation from centuries of tyranny. In fact, with the Byzantine Egyptians and the people of Spain, the Muslims were even beckoned to come and liberate these lands from the oppression of their kings. This is the glorious track record of the Muslim jihad. Compare this with the brutal track record of warfare in the Western world over the centuries. From the crusades against the Muslims to the days of colonial warfare, the Western world has killed, destroyed and plundered everything which has come in its way. Even today this merciless killing goes on by the Western nations. While claiming to be about world peace and security, Western nations are ready to bomb innocent civilians at the drop of a hat. The classic example of this is the recent bombings of Sudan and Afghanistan. Whilst claiming that Sudan and Afghanistan were havens for Islamic terrorists, the bombings of these two nations could not have come at a better time for the American president Bill Clinton. The destruction of innocent lives which were a result of these bombings clearly seem to have been an attempt by Clinton to avert attention away from his sexual misdemeanours; something which he so often gets caught up in. Without doubt this was the reason for such terror from the American military upon innocent people. This is the same American military which claims to enter the worlds trouble spots under the guise of being peace keepers. But
"… when it is said to them; 'Make not mischief on the Earth', they say; 'We are only peace makers'. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)

The hypocrisy of the West is indeed astounding.

By looking at the rules and regulations of this combative jihad it will be clear to any sincere person that this is indeed the religion of truth. When fighting an unjust enemy, no matter how unjust they are, it is forbidden by Islam that their retreating forces are mutilated, tortured or slaughtered. The treacherous violation of treaties and carrying out assassinations after a cease fire, are also prohibited. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

Not transgressing the limits means not to kill women and children, for the Messenger of Allah (saws) "forbade the killing of women and children" . Not transgressing the limits means that the elderly, the sick, monks, worshippers and hired labourers are not attacked. Not transgressing the limits means not killing animals wantonly, burning crops and vegetation, polluting waters and destroying homes, monasteries, churches and synagogues:

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8)

After reading such passages from the Qur'an and knowing about what Islam commands and prohibits in jihad, the rules of warfare are given a new meaning; a meaning of justice. How sad it is then, that whilst Islam is condemned for striking terror into the hearts of the people, the likes of the Serbs, the Indian army in Kashmir and the Israeli soldiers in Palestine are left untarnished for the atrocities they have committed in the name of warfare.

So what about suicide bombing, is this too a part of jihad in Allah's path? From what has already been stated above, it can be deduced that this is not from the religion. However, unfortunately many Muslims have taken suicide bombing as being a virtuous act by which one receives reward. This could not be further from the truth. The Prophet (saws) said: "Those who go to extremes are destroyed" . Suicide bombing is undoubtedly an extremity which has reached the ranks of the Muslims. In the rules of warfare, we find no sanction for such an act from the behaviour and words of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) and his companions. Unfortunately, today (some misguided) Muslims believe that such acts are paving the way for an Islamic revival and a return to the rule of Islam's glorious law. However, we fail to bear in mind that the Prophet (saws) said:
"Do not be delighted by the action of anyone, until you see how he ends up"

So, for example what is the end of a suicide bomber in Palestine?, a leg here, an arm there. Massive retaliation by the Israeli's in the West Bank and Gaza. More Muslims killed and persecuted. How can we be delighted with such an end? What really hammers the final nail in the coffin of this act, is that it is suicide; something which is clearly forbidden in Islam. The Messenger of Allah (saws) said:

"He who kills himself with anything, Allah will torment him with that in the fire of Hell"

Some are under the misconception that by killing oneself for an Islamic cause, one commits an act which deserves Paradise. Once when a man killed himself, the Prophet (saws) said: "He is a dweller of the Fire". When the people were surprised at this, the Prophet (saws) said:

"A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dweller of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the Fire"


"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)

Thus, all other types of extremities such as hostage taking, hijacking and planting bombs in public places, are clearly forbidden in Islam.

The Media

By going through the teachings of Islam, it is clear that such a religion has only come to benefit mankind - not to destroy it. So why is there so much hatred for this noble religion in the West? The answer is simple, the media. It is the Jewish influenced media of the West which has portrayed Islam to be something that it is not. During the 70's and 80's when the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) were carrying out daring highjacks on the worlds airways, the media in the West portrayed it as being Islamic. When the Shi'ite suicide bombers of the 80's were causing so much havoc in the Lebanon and in the Gulf region, the media in the West portrayed it as a part of Islam. However, it is known by the heads of the media that the likes of the PLO were not an Islamic organisation, and that according to Islam, Shi'ites are outside the fold of Islam . Yet such facts are never portrayed by a media which seeks to cover the truth of this religion. A number of years ago, when the Oklahoma City bomb went off, a headline in one of the newspapers, 'Today' , summed up this attitude. With a picture of a fire fighter holding a dead child in his arms, the headline read: "In The Name of Islam" Time has of course proven that this bigoted assumption was incorrect, as Timothy McVeigh, a right wing radical now faces the death penalty for the crime . Likewise the bombs which went off in the Paris metro in 1995, were also blamed on Muslim fanatics. It has now emerged that the Algerian secret service who having routinely bribed many European journalists and MPs, were actually behind it. The desire to throw a veil over Islam is immense by these people:

"They intend to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will complete His light even though the disbelievers hate (it)"
(Surah As-Saff 61:8)

Whilst trying to destroy Islam through this instrument of the media, the Jews clearly try to portray an image of themselves as being the oppressed people. Every year, we are reminded as to how many Jews perished under the Nazis in World War II. We are made to feel sorry for these same people who have gone on to commit so many crimes upon the Palestinian people. Some may say that this is a racist and biased viewpoint. But we say; If this media was not run and orchestrated by the Jews and was truly neutral, then why are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, two former Israeli prime ministers, not held aloft as being terrorists? Anyone who knows about the history of the Palestinian occupation will tell you that these two men were members of the Stern Gang and Irgun, two notorious Jewish terror groups who killed many innocent people . If this media was truly impartial, then why does it not tell about the extent of the Israeli bombardment and illegal occupation of Southern Lebanon and its people? And if this media really had nothing against the religion of Allah, then why does it not inform the people that every day hundreds are entering the religion of Islam? Such things will never be highlighted in the Western media, simply because to do so would be against their very interests.

With such immense pressure against it, it is indeed a blessing from Allah that Islam goes from strength to strength. It continues to grow faster then any other religion in the Western world, conquering the hearts and minds of thousands. All this should not even surprise us though, for Allah has promised us that this religion will prevail:

"It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it victorious over all other religions, even though the disbelievers detest it"
(Surah As-Saff 61:9)

It is a must that humanity comes towards the religion of Islam. Without it, we will continue to slip down the road of inequity and darkness. With it we can establish a society of justice and peace. Religion of terror? ... no. The way forward? ... yes.

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)






<wasalam>
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Ulysses
10-10-2006, 11:55 PM
One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people.
Unfortunately, that minority makes itself quite visible, and it has done a very good job of establishing itself as the "representative" of Islam, even if that is untrue.

I would think you would be most upset with this minority within your ranks, and not with the West for its slow and patient years of enduring the acts of provocation by that minority?

I would put the question to you Sir/Madam, how are you going to ELIMINATE that minority from your society(s)? If you do not have a viable plan, or if you and your congregations do not have a viable plan, then things will most likely get considerably worse before they get better.
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Hijrah
10-10-2006, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
Unfortunately, that minority makes itself quite visible, and it has done a very good job of establishing itself as the "representative" of Islam, even if that is untrue.

I would think you would be most upset with this minority within your ranks, and not with the West for its slow and patient years of enduring the acts of provocation by that minority?

I would put the question to you Sir/Madam, how are you going to ELIMINATE that minority from your society(s)? If you do not have a viable plan, or if you and your congregations do not have a viable plan, then things will most likely get considerably worse before they get better.
Unfortunately we can't do the same either to another minority, rather the majority that get involved with things such as sex, drugs and other stuff of the like here in the West. Such is the state.
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
Unfortunately we can't do the same either to another minority, rather the majority that get involved with things such as sex, drugs and other stuff of the like here in the West. Such is the state.
Indeed, the anti-social segments of any society are always difficult to "eliminate" as I put it. But then the actions of those who abuse substances, who participate in gratuitous sex, and who otherwise engage in wanton behaviors which are less regulated in secular socieites, do not form themselves into collectives in order to maximize the power of their negative impacts on the larger social collective. It is difficult to imagine any tragedy comparable to this being carried out by dissolute Western drug addicts, or sex-puppies

http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html
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Ulysses
10-11-2006, 12:05 AM
Whilst trying to destroy Islam through this instrument of the media, the Jews clearly try to portray an image of themselves as being the oppressed people. Every year, we are reminded as to how many Jews perished under the Nazis in World War II. We are made to feel sorry for these same people who have gone on to commit so many crimes upon the Palestinian people. Some may say that this is a racist and biased viewpoint.
Are you truly afraid that anyone is trying to destroy your religion?

Is it not contradictory that in the very next paragraph you claim that Islam is "going from victory to victory" "growing fast" and "conquering hearts and minds?" Is it only my strange Buddhist Hong Kong view which leads me to see this as being internally contradictory?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-11-2006, 12:11 AM
Its not contradictory. People can try to destroy and they have been since day 1. But we believe they will never be successful. Whatever be the state of the Muslims, Islam itself will remain and never change.
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Ulysses
10-12-2006, 06:20 PM
My friend, a couple of quotes from Marcus Aurelius

How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.
Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius
Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.

I don't see that happening, just look around the world. Even the passive people continuously are attacked. [from both sides]



Peace.
Reply

Hisbul_Aziz
10-12-2006, 07:49 PM
Shukran For the article it realy makes a brother think :?
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Cherub
10-14-2006, 06:35 PM
I would like to point out that it's not actually non-Muslims that make the connection with Islam but the terrorists that do so.
Also we can often see that these groups state there intentions as establishing a Islamic state.
And so consider themselves acting in the name of Islam against what they consider oppression.

The issue of killing woman and children is also a curious one.
Many Muslims seem to believe this is absolutely forbidden.
Yet there are hadith in the collections of bukhari and the like that show the prophet allowing this if circumstances demanded it.

The night raid hadith is an example of this where the Muslims attacked a non-Muslim camp at night and the Muslims asked Muhammed if it was bad if woman and children got killed because of it.
And he simply said "they are from them".
And so allowed to the attack to take place.
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*noor
10-14-2006, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
Unfortunately, that minority makes itself quite visible, and it has done a very good job of establishing itself as the "representative" of Islam, even if that is untrue.
what do you mean minority??
Islam is the second largest religion worldwide and at this rate, it will be the largest sooner than we all think
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*noor
10-14-2006, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
The issue of killing woman and children is also a curious one.
Many Muslims seem to believe this is absolutely forbidden.
Yet there are hadith in the collections of bukhari and the like that show the prophet allowing this if circumstances demanded it.
I've never seen such a hadith. Feel free to post one with the source and link.
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Cherub
10-14-2006, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *noor
I've never seen such a hadith. Feel free to post one with the source and link.
I will look it up for you.
Here

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen....html#019.4321
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*noor
10-14-2006, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
And how exactly have you interpreted it?
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- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub

You noticed the title above the actual hadith?:


Chapter 9: PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE



Peace.
Reply

Cherub
10-14-2006, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
You noticed the title above the actual hadith?:


Chapter 9: PERMISSIBILITY OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THE NIGHT RAIDS, PROVIDED IT IS NOT DELIBERATE



Peace.
Exactly they only see it as a unfortunate consequence of waging war in order to establish a Islamic state.
The objective is not to kill woman and children , the objective is to stop what they consider oppression and to establish a Islamic state.
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- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 07:16 PM
Hi Cherub.


Earlier on, in post #10 - you said:


The night raid hadith is an example of this where the Muslims attacked a non-Muslim camp at night and the Muslims asked Muhammed if it was bad if woman and children got killed because of it.
And he simply said "they are from them".
And so allowed to the attack to take place.

Do you think that war is supposed to be friendly, where one side tell's the opposition when their going to attack? If the enemies camped near the muslim's, don't you feel that they could do the attack at any moment too?

So what should someone do in that situation? The simple answer is, you fight to defend yourself, before the enemy attack's you first.


If the context of the hadith is how you explained it, then if a person is in a similar situation - they have to fight back, even if it's in the dark - which mean's that it may lead to the killing of women and children.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

Hijrah
10-14-2006, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I would like to point out that it's not actually non-Muslims that make the connection with Islam but the terrorists that do so.
Also we can often see that these groups state there intentions as establishing a Islamic state.
And so consider themselves acting in the name of Islam against what they consider oppression.
LOL, yes flying planes into buildings is really an effective way of conquering, rather it gets the Islamic countries occupied...
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Fishman
10-14-2006, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
LOL, yes flying planes into buildings is really an effective way of conquering, rather it gets the Islamic countries occupied...
:sl:
Exactly. Attacking civilians intentionally is stratigically useless unless you have nukes or something.
:w:
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Cherub
10-14-2006, 07:27 PM
I would also like to add something else, most scholars who agree with the tactic of suicide bombings , say that this is not suicide.
Because the objective is to kill the enemy not to kill one self.
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*noor
10-14-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I would also like to add something else, most scholars who agree with the tactic of suicide bombings , say that this is not suicide.
Because the objective is to kill the enemy not to kill one self.
yes but these bombings which I personally don't call suicide bombings are a means of self defense.

i think its wrong to do it in a place where its only civilians

i find it right to do it targeting tanks and the fighters
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Fishman
10-14-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I would also like to add something else, most scholars who agree with the tactic of suicide bombings , say that this is not suicide.
Because the objective is to kill the enemy not to kill one self.
:sl:
The objective of terrorist suicide bombings is to kill innocent people intentionally, which is forbidden. Attacking armies via this means is a different matter, which I will not go into.
:w:
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Cherub
10-14-2006, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *noor
yes but these bombings which I personally don't call suicide bombings are a means of self defense.

i think its wrong to do it in a place where its only civilians

i find it right to do it targeting tanks and the fighters
Of course but when these terrorists target civilians , they consider them enemy combatants because they pay and support the armies and governments which cause what they consider oppression.

Take for example the bombings in Madrid and London.
Also they consider Muslims who live in the West to be like them.
Because they also pay taxes and the like.
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Fishman
10-14-2006, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
Of course but when these terrorists target civilians , they consider them enemy combatants because they pay and support the armies and governments which cause what they consider oppression.

Take for example the bombings in Madrid and London.
Also they consider Muslims who live in the West to be like them.
Because they also pay taxes and the like.
:sl:
Westerners can't help pay taxes. It's not their fault that they are supporting the armies.
:w:
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*noor
10-14-2006, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
Of course but when these terrorists target civilians , they consider them enemy combatants because they pay and support the armies and governments which cause what they consider oppression.

Take for example the bombings in Madrid and London.
Also they consider Muslims who live in the West to be like them.
Because they also pay taxes and the like.
who said that was correct?
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Cherub
10-14-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *noor
who said that was correct?
I think they take it from the Qu'ran or hadith.
I recall there being a verse which says something like
if one lives with the non believers he is one of them.
Also there is a clear order in the Qu'ran that one is obligated to wage Jihad if and when the Islamic state is under attack.
They consider you like the people that stayed behind in Medina when Muhammed marched out for some battle with the Romans.
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- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I think they take it from the Qu'ran or hadith.
I recall there being a verse which says something like
if one lives with the non believers he is one of them.

The hadeeth “I have nothing to do with every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen” may be interpreted as referring to those who cannot practise their religion openly in the place where they settle, and those who are able to practise their religion openly are not included in this hadeeth.


http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...g%20mushrikeen


Also there is a clear order in the Qu'ran that one is obligated to wage Jihad if and when the Islamic state is under attack.

We don't have an islamic state anywhere in the world today.


They consider you like the people that stayed behind in Medina when Muhammed marched out for some battle with the Romans.

It was an obligation upon the believer's at that time to make hijrah to Medinah, because there was an islamic state. We don't have one.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace. :)
Reply

Cherub
10-14-2006, 08:02 PM
The real question i think everyone should ask himself is in what way can we stop this bloodshed from happening?
It's like you have two choices.

1. You destroy Islam, totally and completely.
2. You allow the establishment in all current and former Muslim lands of Taliban like states.

But the question at 2 is will that actually stop these people from fighting non-Muslims and Muslim and extending what they consider the only just and proper way to live?
I think we can safely say no it would not stop them because Islam is meant to rule the entire earth.
So even if you do not consider Islam a religion of terror, and do not agree with a Taliban like form of Islam.
They sure do, and thats if i may say so a frightful thing indeed.
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- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 08:15 PM
Muslim's class the introducing of democracy a form of terror because first of all, the muslim's are seeing their own family member's being killed - so that they can 'enjoy' democracy.


Secondly, the people in the west are actually realising that their voice isn't being heard by the 'democratic' governments - because whenever they do any form of rally to stop the war, the government chooses to ignore them and go against the public anyway, even though - this is what democracy's supposed to be.


Thirdly, muslim's love islaam and they choose to follow it because the law within islaam is just, for all people. You can read about how islaam gave freedom to the people who were oppressed, how islaam break's the barrier between the rich and the poor etc. whereas this is the norm in society today, even though not all people realise this.


Islamic History
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


I really hope you look into that, because it explain's how when islamic law was implemented within a nation - prosperity and justice was widespread.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
Reply

Hijrah
10-14-2006, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I think we can safely say no it would not stop them because Islam is meant to rule the entire earth.
There are different views on what you are talking about here

http://www.islamonline.net/english/C...rticle02.shtml

This article addresses that...I think you should read it...

as far as what you are saying concerning Suicide Bombing, a particular scholar that supports what is going on in Palestine, that is the same scholar that wrote what is in the link.
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Fishman
10-14-2006, 08:20 PM
:sl:
It is hypocritical to force democracy on people. This does not mean that I disagree with democracy, it just means that I don't like the 'If you don't come to democracy, democracy will come to you!' approach.
:w:
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Hijrah
10-14-2006, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Muslim's class the introducing of democracy a form of terror because first of all, the muslim's are seeing their own family member's being killed - so that they can 'enjoy' democracy.


Secondly, the people in the west are actually realising that their voice isn't being heard by the 'democratic' governments - because whenever they do any form of rally to stop the war, the government chooses to ignore them and go against the public anyway, even though - this is what democracy's supposed to be.


Thirdly, muslim's love islaam and they choose to follow it because the law within islaam is just, for all people. You can read about how islaam gave freedom to the people who were oppressed, how islaam break's the barrier between the rich and the poor etc. whereas this is the norm in society today, even though not all people realise this.


Islamic History
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


I really hope you look into that, because it explain's how when islamic law was implemented within a nation - prosperity and justice was widespread.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
:sl:
could you post that article on here, load islam isn't working for me. But I think I might have read that article, very good articles on that site masha'allah
Reply

*noor
10-14-2006, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
It is hypocritical to force democracy on people. This does not mean that I disagree with democracy, it just means that I don't like the 'If you don't come to democracy, democracy will come to you!' approach.
:w:
yeah who is "so and so" to decide what's right for another group of people??
Reply

Cherub
10-14-2006, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Muslim's class the introducing of democracy a form of terror because first of all, the muslim's are seeing their own family member's being killed - so that they can 'enjoy' democracy.


Secondly, the people in the west are actually realising that their voice isn't being heard by the 'democratic' governments - because whenever they do any form of rally to stop the war, the government chooses to ignore them and go against the public anyway, even though - this is what democracy's supposed to be.


Thirdly, muslim's love islaam and they choose to follow it because the law within islaam is just, for all people. You can read about how islaam gave freedom to the people who were oppressed, how islaam break's the barrier between the rich and the poor etc. whereas this is the norm in society today, even though not all people realise this.


Islamic History
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


I really hope you look into that, because it explain's how when islamic law was implemented within a nation - prosperity and justice was widespread.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
I wonder if this is true why Islamic lands stopped being governed according to these perfect laws?
And why you have such a diverse interpretation?
Isn't it more like a utopian idea that one can establish such a state?
Something that like communism is nice in theory but in practise does not work?
Reply

- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 08:23 PM
:wasalamex


subhan Allaah.. sorry bro - it's not working for me either now. will post later inshaAllaah, once it start's working :)


:salamext:
Reply

- Qatada -
10-14-2006, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub
I wonder if this is true why Islamic lands stopped being governed according to these perfect laws?

That's because the people stopped obeying Allaah, and gave up on them law's due to the hunger of this world. How many time's has a nation fallen, due to the fact that the leader became corrupt?


And why you have such a diverse interpretation?

Of what exactly?


Isn't it more like a utopian idea that one can establish such a state?
Something that like communism is nice in theory but in practise does not work?
These state's actually lasted for a really long time, so their not just theory - but were actually put into practise, and succeeded. Once that link above start's working, you'll realise that insha'Allaah (God willing.)



Peace.
Reply

Cherub
10-14-2006, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
That's because the people stopped obeying Allaah, and gave up on them law's due to the hunger of this world. How many time's has a nation fallen, due to the fact that the leader became corrupt?
How does Islam deal with a corrupt leader?


Of what exactly?
Of what constitutes a Islamic state. Clearly Muslims have different views on this. Let alone the Shia / Sunni thing.


These state's actually lasted for a really long time, so their not just theory - but were actually put into practise, and succeeded. Once that link above start's working, you'll realise that insha'Allaah (God willing.)



Peace.[/QUOTE]

Yes but how then did they stop to be? You can't say something was succesful unless it survives to this day.
Corrupt leaders is why democracy is a good thing.
Because you can choose to remove a leader who does not behave properly.
Reply

Woodrow
10-14-2006, 09:35 PM
Democracy is a very poor form of government. But, it appears to be the only one that will work when the population is composed of people of varying religious beliefs.

I belief Islamic Law is the best form of government, however people who are not Muslim will not accept or abide by it. In my way of seeing things I believe democracy is the only government that will cause the least amount of harm to both Muslims and non-Muslim. Or perhaps I should say equal levels of harm.

So far I have not found any major restriction for me to practice Islam here in the USA. I may not like all the things that are permitted, but that does not prevent me from being Muslim. Actually a Muslim here could live in an all Islamic community and have little or no contact with non-Muslims if they so desired.
Reply

Fishman
10-15-2006, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cherub

Yes but how then did they stop to be? You can't say something was succesful unless it survives to this day.
:sl:
Utter rubbish. There are loads of successful things that have not survived to this day. Dinosaurs, the Roman Empire, the Aztecs, passenger pigeons...
:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-15-2006, 03:19 PM
:sl:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#29
Misquoted Narration #8
When asked about the possibility of women and children of the polytheists being exposed to danger during a night raid, the Prophet Muhammad said, "They are from them."
Before addressing the specific narration in question, let us first emphasize the fact that Islam prohibits the killing of women and children.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A woman was found killed in one of these battles, so the Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children. (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Ibn `Abbas says: The Messenger of Allah, when dispatching his troops, would tell them, " ..Do not behave treacherously, nor misappropriate war-booty, nor mutilate [those whom you kill], nor kill children, nor the people in cloisters." (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Another narration records that he said, "…Do not kill a woman, nor a child, nor an old-aged man’ (Sharh as-Sunnah Al-Baghawî)

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abî Dawûd)

And again, "Do not kill a child, nor a woman, nor an old man, nor obliterate a stream, nor cut a tree…" (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)

The strict conditions that Islam has laid out in the event of warfare are referred to in the verse:
2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
The companions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) continued to abide by these conditions in all the military campaigns they undertook after his death. The first caliph, Abu Bakr, advised his military commander:
"I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."
(Muwatta Mâlik)
Having established that Islam forbids the killing of women and children and all devastation during war, the narration concerning the night raid may now be examined. In this narration the Prophet Muhammad was asked about the potential injuries which may unintentionally befall non-combatants during a night raid. The narration is as follows:
Narated By As-Sab bin Jaththama : The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the polytheist warriors at night with the possibility of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them." (Sahîh Bukhârî)
In other words, the Prophet (peace be upon him) acknowleged the unfortunate yet inescapable possibility of what is today referred to as "collateral damage". In military campaigns, women and children are never to be targeted and their deaths are to be avoided at all costs. Nevertheless, it remains a fact that such deaths do occur as an unintentionally during the fighting. As Shaykh Abdullah Al-Manî'î writes concerning the narration in question:
Those who are not generally engaged in fighting – like women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and others who do not participate in the fighting – are not to be killed. The Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibited this. His prohibition of the killing of women and children is clearly related by Ibn `Umar in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3015) and Sahîh Muslim (1744).

The only exception to this is where such people participate directly in the fighting or are so intermixed with the fighters that it is impossible to separate them from those who are fighting. This exception is indicated by the hadîth of al-Sa`b b. Jathâmah. The Prophet (peace be upon him) was asked about the women and children of the polytheists who were among them and who would be injured if the enemy was attacked. He said: “They are of them.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3021) and Sahîh Muslim (1475)]

In short, non-Muslims living in Muslim lands, those who are under covenant, and those with whom we have peace cannot be attacked. As for those who are at war with us, the combatants may be fought and killed. Those who are not combatants cannot be killed or targeted for killing. The only way that they can be killed is as an unintentional consequence of fighting against the enemy combatants.

Indeed, the hadîth in question actually shows us that the general rule is not to kill non-combatants, even when they are present on the battlefield. The only exception is when the non-combatants are so mixed in with the fighters in the theatre of combat that it is impossible to fight against the combatants without the possibility of some non-combatants inadvertently being killed. This is only out of dire necessity.

Ibn Hajar writes in his commentary on this hadîth in Fath al-Bârî (6/146):

His statement “They are of them” means that they are construed as such under those circumstances. It does not mean that it is permissible to deliberately target them.

It is a matter of agreement among scholars that a person’s unbelief is not reason for that person to be killed. There is considerable evidence for this. Aside from the Prophet’s prohibition of killing non-combatants, we have where Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

And Allah knows best.
Imâm Abu Zakariyyah An-Nawawî (d. 1300CE) explains that this may occur during a night raid because one's ability to see is impaired by the dark (Sharh Sahîh Muslim 2790). This does not negate the fact that such unfortunate accidents remain just as abhorrent.
Reply

justahumane
10-15-2006, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Democracy is a very poor form of government. But, it appears to be the only one that will work when the population is composed of people of varying religious beliefs.

I belief Islamic Law is the best form of government, however people who are not Muslim will not accept or abide by it. In my way of seeing things I believe democracy is the only government that will cause the least amount of harm to both Muslims and non-Muslim. Or perhaps I should say equal levels of harm.

So far I have not found any major restriction for me to practice Islam here in the USA. I may not like all the things that are permitted, but that does not prevent me from being Muslim. Actually a Muslim here could live in an all Islamic community and have little or no contact with non-Muslims if they so desired.

Good to know ur views about democratic governments. I disagree.

Ur belief regarding Islamic laws is obvious, and permit me to add that not even non-muslims but muslims dont seem to agree with Islamic laws. All muslims states in the world are perfect example of it.

I appreciate muslim's double speak regarding Islamic laws, which other community can make so much noise about something which they dont believe in themselves.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-15-2006, 05:56 PM
Hmmm...since when was it only Muslims? For everytime someone brings this up im always going to bring up the Crusades and what not. So before u bring this up, know that I will bring that up. No one else is exactly innocent. So i think you are the biggest hypocrite. "It might sound offensive" :rolleyes: but its true.
Reply

Hijrah
10-15-2006, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Good to know ur views about democratic governments. I disagree.

Ur belief regarding Islamic laws is obvious, and permit me to add that not even non-muslims but muslims dont seem to agree with Islamic laws. All muslims states in the world are perfect example of it.

I appreciate muslim's double speak regarding Islamic laws, which other community can make so much noise about something which they dont believe in themselves. It may sound offensive, but in my views muslims are undoubtedly the biggest bunch of hypocrites considering the fact how shamelessly they disobey ALLAH and at the same time miss no chance to create a drama in the name of holy quran. Indeed something unimaginable.
yes, muslim states that aren't even Muslim States..
Reply

dougmusr
10-16-2006, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Hmmm...since when was it only Muslims? For everytime someone brings this up im always going to bring up the Crusades and what not. So before u bring this up, know that I will bring that up. No one else is exactly innocent. So i think you are the biggest hypocrite. "It might sound offensive" :rolleyes: but its true.
I'm no expert on the crusades, but weren't they in response to a Muslim action?

In the 7th cent., Jerusalem was taken by the caliph Umar. Pilgrimages (see pilgrim) were not cut off at first, but early in the 11th cent. the Fatimid caliph Hakim began to persecute the Christians and despoiled the Holy Sepulcher. Persecution abated after his death (1021), but relations remained strained and became more so when Jerusalem passed (1071) from the comparatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks, who in the same year defeated the Byzantine emperor Romanus IV at Manzikert.
Reply

Quran_Studies
10-16-2006, 12:37 AM
I'm no expert on the crusades, but weren't they in response to a Muslim action?
Biggest logical fallacy of the day.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-16-2006, 01:47 AM
I'm no expert on the crusades, but weren't they in response to a Muslim action?
Ummm it wasn't.
lol funny how u cut out half the history starting with what someone did wrong. Your quite good at twisting. You deserve an award :) Would u like one?
Reply

Ulysses
10-16-2006, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I don't see that happening, just look around the world. Even the passive people continuously are attacked. [from both sides]
Peace.
Dear friend,
I'm imagining based on the simple message you convey, that you are deeply saddened, as am I, at the carnage, continuing, seemingly unabated. Like myself, you are no doubt "in the middle," and as you put it, "passive."

Though I myself have the capacity to respond quite vigorously when provoked, it is my nature to remain "passive," and pacifistic until there is no other option.

It seems that reasonable, calm, compassionate, and loving folks like you and me are caught in a catch-22. It is my only hope that my role, whether it is through communication or action, will contribute in some small way to eventual sustainable peace and mutual coexistence for Islam and non-Islam, a prospect which seems so unlikely in the current context in which Sunni and Shia kidnap, torture, and murder one another with impunity.
Reply

justahumane
10-16-2006, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Hmmm...since when was it only Muslims? For everytime someone brings this up im always going to bring up the Crusades and what not. So before u bring this up, know that I will bring that up. No one else is exactly innocent. So i think you are the biggest hypocrite. "It might sound offensive" :rolleyes: but its true.
No sister, it hasnt sounded least offensive to me, reps to U for being so personal and blunt.

Well perhaps my comments about muslims being hypocrite agitated U and rightly so, but that wasnt personal comment at all sister, it has a valid reason behind it, I m gonna explain to U.

I can bet that muslims themselves have killed more muslims rather than non-muslims. Crusade happened, and stopped, may ALLAH punish crusaders till eternity in hell. but killing of muslims by muslims is still in progress, its time that present time killing should be stopped and than crusade should be discuessed. Coz I feel that we cant change history and only take few lessons from it. I hope U dont agree with it.

Let a news of alleged insult of holy quran by any non-muslim break out, U will see whole muslims Ummah on the roads, shouting their heart out, as if they are deeply hurt and in anger. But ask them to follow the laws of the book they recite, parrot, and make drama out of it........they will simply look the other way. Isnt this action amounts to hypocricy to U?

I bet U wont find a pork shop in any muslim nation, but U can find pleanty of banks paying interest to their muslim customers. isnt this amount to hypocricy? All being done under proctection of muslim government.

There is much more to emphasize my POV, but I feel this suffice, if not, than plz ask for further reasons why I term muslims as biggest bunch of hypocrites. Let me make it clear that not all but majority of muslims are like this, so its nothing personal and benifit of doubt is given to each and everyone.

Thanks.
Reply

Hijrah
10-16-2006, 10:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I'm no expert on the crusades, but weren't they in response to a Muslim action?

In the 7th cent., Jerusalem was taken by the caliph Umar. Pilgrimages (see pilgrim) were not cut off at first, but early in the 11th cent. the Fatimid caliph Hakim began to persecute the Christians and despoiled the Holy Sepulcher. Persecution abated after his death (1021), but relations remained strained and became more so when Jerusalem passed (1071) from the comparatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks, who in the same year defeated the Byzantine emperor Romanus IV at Manzikert.
Jews were being killed in Germany and Poland on there way to Jerusalem before even a drop of Muslim blood was spilled in the Crusades. The Muslims let the Jews and Christian worship there. I think you should see the Islamic History link provided by fi-sabilillah and see this:

http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=111
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-16-2006, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
No sister, it hasnt sounded least offensive to me, reps to U for being so personal and blunt.

Well perhaps my comments about muslims being hypocrite agitated U and rightly so, but that wasnt personal comment at all sister, it has a valid reason behind it, I m gonna explain to U.

I can bet that muslims themselves have killed more muslims rather than non-muslims. Crusade happened, and stopped, may ALLAH punish crusaders till eternity in hell. but killing of muslims by muslims is still in progress, its time that present time killing should be stopped and than crusade should be discuessed. Coz I feel that we cant change history and only take few lessons from it. I hope U dont agree with it.

Let a news of alleged insult of holy quran by any non-muslim break out, U will see whole muslims Ummah on the roads, shouting their heart out, as if they are deeply hurt and in anger. But ask them to follow the laws of the book they recite, parrot, and make drama out of it........they will simply look the other way. Isnt this action amounts to hypocricy to U?

I bet U wont find a pork shop in any muslim nation, but U can find pleanty of banks paying interest to their muslim customers. isnt this amount to hypocricy? All being done under proctection of muslim government.

There is much more to emphasize my POV, but I feel this suffice, if not, than plz ask for further reasons why I term muslims as biggest bunch of hypocrites. Let me make it clear that not all but majority of muslims are like this, so its nothing personal and benifit of doubt is given to each and everyone.

Thanks.
Personal or not, u "generalized." The way u said it referred to every Muslim. Please dont expect me to sit and let ur comments fly under my nose. I respect everyone, but i wont let someone make a comment about all Muslims instead of the few and let it pass. My reason is just as valid as yours. If i wanted too i could have generalized that all hindus are racist and hate Muslims, but I wont cuz i dont know that. So next time, chose your words wisely and be clear as what u want to say.

Peace
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-16-2006, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dougmusr
I'm no expert on the crusades, but weren't they in response to a Muslim action?

In the 7th cent., Jerusalem was taken by the caliph Umar. Pilgrimages (see pilgrim) were not cut off at first, but early in the 11th cent. the Fatimid caliph Hakim began to persecute the Christians and despoiled the Holy Sepulcher. Persecution abated after his death (1021), but relations remained strained and became more so when Jerusalem passed (1071) from the comparatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks, who in the same year defeated the Byzantine emperor Romanus IV at Manzikert.

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...amic%20history

Islamic history


Refutation to 'The Real History of the Crusades'
By : kadafi (www.islamicboard.com)

All praise is due to Allah, and Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon His Final Messenger, his pure family, his noble Companions, and all those who follow them with righteousness until the Day of Judgment.
The historical distortion perpetrated on historical thinking by Thomas F. Madden is not a new fallacious concept introduced by contemporary Christian revisionists but has been prevalent since the emergence of Islam on world stage. For many centuries, the Christian historians and orientalists directly promulgated lies and fabrications about Islam in order to instil prejudice against the Muslims. And yet in the modern age, Christian fundamentalist historians still continue to carry the flag and propagate indirectly their revisionist theories regarding Islam. A summarised article of Thomas F. Madden's book entitled A Concise History of the Crusades has been published attempting to debunk the old-aged “misconceptions” of the Crusades. He chronologically discusses the major events of the initial Crusade until the 5th Crusade. I will Insha’Allah (God-willing) address the deceptive methods riddled in his article. He writes:
Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword.
Here, Thomas F. Madden asserts and attempts to justify that medieval Christians were defending themselves from the Muslim “aggression”. Furthermore, he also allegedly states that Islam was born in a war giving the reader the impression that the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the early Muslim community provoked the war between the Arab pagans and the Muslims. This is far from the truth. Prophet Muhammad peacefully proclaimed the Message of the One True God and gained many followers. These early Muslims consisted of sons and brothers of the richest men in Makkah and also included slaves and the poor. As a result of their firm belief in Allah (God in Arabic), they were subjected to persecution. The Quraish (Arab tribe) restricted the people from buying or selling anything to the Muslims. They imposed economic and social boycott on them. They even prohibited Makkans from entering into marriages with them. Since Makkah was the land of the trade, the early Muslims couldn’t endure this hardship. Consequently, the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) send the Muslims to Abyssinia where a just Christian king ruled. The Quraish soon discovered the place that they emigrated to and thus send one of their tribesmen to the court of Najashi in order to ask the king to hand over the Muslims. Ja’far, who was one of the Muslims, was permitted to refute the accusations of the Quraish. He said:
"O King of Abyssinia! We worshipped idols in the past and let our lives be consumed by fun and sport. To inflict cruelty upon the weak and the poor was our pastime. We were wrapped in abysmal darkness when Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)" bin Abdullah was born among us. He led us to righteousness and instructed us to shun idolatry. He called us to Allah Almighty. He showed us to be merciful and told us to abstain from evil and shelter the weak and poor".
"O King, we were a people steeped in ignorance, worshipping idols, eating un-sacrificed carrion, committing abominations, and harming the weak without reason until Allah sent us a Messenger from out of our midst, one whose lineage we knew well. His veracity, worthiness of trust and his integrity was also known to us. He called us unto Allah, that we should testify to His Oneness and worship Him and renounce what we and our fathers had worshipped in the way of stones and idols; and he commanded us to speak truly, to fulfil our promises, to respect the ties of kinship and the rights of our neighbours, and to refrain from crimes and from bloodshed. So we worship Allah alone, setting naught beside Him, counting as forbidden what He hath forbidden and as licit what He hath allowed. Our people turned against us, and have persecuted us to make us forsake our religion and revert from the worship of Allah to the worship of idols.
"We believed him, but O King! these, who have come to arrest us are idol-worshippers. They worship idols of stone and wood, inflict barbarism upon the weak. These people have persecuted, pelted and injured our Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)".
The above quote indisputably proves that the early Muslims where rather peaceful servants of God who only promoted peace and only defended themselves from the pagan aggressions. Thomas F. Madden then further claims that the expansion of Islam was only achieved through the use of the sword. Not only was this myth prevalent in the Frankish Europe, but it is still prevalent in the present age in the minds of many Christians. The well known author, James Michener, writes:
No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience.[1]
This misconception is also addressed by K. S. Ramakrishna Rao who writes:
My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.[2]
And Lawrence E. Browne who states:
Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.[3]
Professor Arnold Thomas addresses this widely-held belief in one of his books. He writes:
To give any account of these campaigns is beyond the scope of the present work, but it is important to show that Muhammad, when he found himself at the head of a band of armed followers, was not transformed at once, as some would have us believe, from a peaceful preacher into a fanatic, sword in hand, forcing his religion on whomsoever he could.[4]
The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity states:
Christianity has largely misunderstood the nature of Islamic militancy. The fiction that Islam was preached by the sword and Christianity by the lamb and the dove appeared early in Christian writings and still exercises a powerful influence upon the popular perception of Islam. Christian polemicists were quick to contrast the idealized life of Christ with that of Muhammad and his followers, ‘who ceased not to go forth in battle and rapine, to smite with the sword, to seize the little ones, and ravish wives and maidens’.[5]
So in the light of the above mentioned evidence, was the mean of the Muslim expansion always the sword? Ira Zepp Jr, who is another Non-Muslim author, answers the aforementioned question:
It is unfortunate that Islam has been stereotyped as the 'religion of the sword' or that Islam was 'spread by the sword.' The historical reality is that the expansion of Islam was usually by persuasion and not by military power. In any case, Islam cannot be forced on anyone; if profession of the shahadah [i.e. the declaration of Islam] is forced on someone, it is not true Islam.[6]
Thomas F. Madden further writes:
But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.
Thomas here conceals the status of Byzantine Empire and the corruption that was predominately during that period. The Muslims never introduced the expansion for the sake of grabbing lands but they conquered the other nations so that they could free the oppressed inhabitants of the Byzantine Empire and exterminate the ignorance and promote free-thinking. And once they conquered these nations, they never imposed their beliefs on the inhabitants since it contradicts the principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion. Edward Gibbon who is regarded by many as the best contemporary historian comments on the Islamic expansion by describing it as:
one of the most memorable revolutions which has impressed a new and lasting character on the nations of the globe.[7]
Dr. Lebon stated:
"The early Muslim conquests might have blurred their common sense and made them commit the sorts of oppression which conquerors usually commit, and thus ill-treat the subdued and compel them to embrace the Faith they wanted to spread all over the globe. Had they done so, all nations, which were still not under their control, might have turned against them, and they might have suffered what had befallen the Crusaders in their conquest of Syria lately. However, the early Caliphs, who enjoyed a rare ingenuity which was unavailable to the propagandists of new faiths, realized that laws and religion cannot be imposed by force. Hence they were remarkably kind in the way they treated the peoples ofSyria, Egypt, Spain and every other country they subdued, leaving them to practise their laws and regulations and beliefs and imposing only a small Jizya in return for their protection and keeping peace among them. In truth, nations have never known merciful and tolerant conquerors like the Muslims."[8]
He further adds,
"The mercy and tolerance of the conquerors were among the reasons for the spread of their conquests and for the nations' adoptions of their Faith and regulations and language, which became deeply rooted, resisted all sorts of attack and remained even after the disappearance of the Arabs' control on the world stage, though historians deny the fact. Egypt is the most evident proof of this. It adopted what the Arabs had brought over, and reserved it. Conquerors before the Arabs -- the Persians, Greeks and Byzantines -- could not overthrow the ancient Pharaoh civilization and impose what they had brought instead.[9]
This is also evidently in the statement of Count de Castri. He writes:
"The spread of Islam and the submission to its authority seem to have another reason in the continents of Asia and North Africa. It was the despotism of Constantinople which exercised extreme tyranny, and the injustice of rulers was too much for people to bear...[10]
So thus, it was due the abundance of good in medieval Christendom that opened the doors of Islamic Expansion. This also resulted to a mass conversion to Islam under no coercion
Professors Thomas Arnold again comments that:
"This misinterpretation of the Muslim wars of conquest has arisen from the assumption that wars waged for the extension of Muslim domination over the lands of the unbelievers implied that the aim in view was their conversion."[11]
One example to note is the conquest of Spain. In 711 CE, an oppressed Christian chief named Julian went to Musa ibn Nusair, the governor of North Africa, with a plea for help against the tyrannical Christian Visigoth ruler of Spain, Roderick. Musa responded by sending the young general Tariq bin Ziyad with an army of 7000 troops, burned their fleets, and defeated the 30,000 Visigoths. One of his remarkable speech was after burning his fleet -- "The sea is behind you, and the enemy is ahead of you, and you have no escape but the truth and patience." A new atmosphere of toleration began for the Jews. The Muslims had few men and needed help in every city they conquered to maintain their rule. The Jews helped the Muslims because they represented an opportunity to free themselves from the Visigoths. The Christians and Jews were liberated in Al-Andalusia. The Syrians welcomed the Muslims as their liberators since they liberated from their religious trouble and also relieved them of the burdensome taxes that that were placed on their backs. They praised the Muslims by announcing publically, “Praise be to God, who delivered us from the unjust Byzantines and put us under the rule of the Muslims”. A great amount of them converted to the Islamic faith. This liberation goes in accordance with the Quranic verse:
And why should you not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Yourside one who will protect; and raise for us from Your side one who will help!') (An-Nisaa' 4:75).

The First Crusade
The First Crusade was launched by Pope Urban II by announcing that Muslim forces were taking over Christian nations. He further prepared the Christians to bring back the lands under the Christian by retaliate a Crusade against the Muslims. The Pope attempted to deceive the masses that they were fighting for a good cause but only a handful responded to his call whilst joined the ranks to pillage and plunder, or to escape their feudal lords. Professor of History, Joel T. Rosenthal, contributed an article at Encarta Encyclopaedia stating:
They knew little about the Byzantine Empire or its religion, Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Few Crusaders understood or had much sympathy for the Eastern Orthodox religion, which did not recognize the pope, used the Greek language rather than Latin, and had very different forms of art and architecture. They knew even less about Islam or Muslim life. For some the First Crusade became an excuse to unleash savage attacks in the name of Christianity on Jewish communities along the Rhine.[12]
But Thomas negates this significant detail and persists on praising the so-called chivalry knights which reveals his psychological mechanism, namely denial to affirm the true nature of the crusaders.
He then cites quotations of another revisionist named Jonathan Riley-Smith who is known for his islamophobic works. Riley-Smith argues that “crusading” was understood as “an act of love” but according to the ‘The Catholic Encyclopedia’, the crusading was understood as:
wars undertaken in pursuance of a vow, and directed against infidels, i.e. against Mohammedans, pagans, heretics, or those under the ban of excommunication.[13]
Thomas also concealed the speech by Pope Urban II who started the first Crusade by calling for colonization of the Muslim world:
For you must hasten to carry aid to your brethren dwelling in the East, who need your help, which they have often asked. For the Turks, a Persian people, have attacked them I exhort you with earnest prayer - not I, but God - that, as heralds of Christ, you urge men by frequent exhortation, men of all ranks, knights as well as foot soldiers, rich as well as poor, to hasten to exterminate this vile race from the lands of your brethren Christ commands it. And if those who set out thither should lose their lives on the way by land, or in crossing the sea, or in fighting the pagans, their sins shall be remitted. Oh what a disgrace, if a race so despised, base, and the instrument of demons, should so overcome a people endowed with faith in the all-powerful God, and resplendent with the name of Christ. Let those who have been accustomed to make private war against the faithful carry on to a successful issue a war against the infidels. Let those who for a long time have been robbers now become soldiers of Christ. Let those who fought against brothers and relatives now fight against these barbarians. Let them zealously undertake the journey under the guidance of the Lord.[14]
Compare this with the claim of Thomas who asserted:
It was the Crusaders’ task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion.
It is quite an essential detail to leave out the genocide preached by Pope Urban II. Especially if it discredits the whole argument that the Crusades were acts of righteousness. When these “righteous” Crusaders arrived at Jerusalem, they had no mercy on the inhabitants, whether Muslims, Jews or their Christian brethren. Philip Schaff writes:
The scenes of carnage which followed belong to the many dark pages of Jerusalem's history and showed how, in the quality of mercy, the crusading knight was far below the ideal of Christian perfection. The streets were choked with the bodies of the slain. The Jews were burnt with their synagogues.... As if to enhance the spectacle of pitiless barbarity, Saracen (i.e. Muslims) prisoners were forced to clear the streets of the dead bodies and blood to save the city from pestilence. "They wept and transported the dead bodies out of Jerusalem," is the heartless statement of Robert the Monk. ... "They cut down with the sword," said William [archbishop] of Tyre, "every one whom they found in Jerusalem, and spared no one. The victors were covered with blood from head to foot." In the next breath, speaking of the devotion of the Crusaders, the archbishop adds, "It was a most affecting sight which filled the heart with holy joy to see the people tread the holy places in the fervor of an excellent devotion."[15]
This horrendous description automatically refutes the claim that most Muslims were spared. They did not stop at the Muslims but advanced further by exterminating the Jews and the Orient Christians who lived peacefully under the Muslim rule. They took the Muslim women as captives and raped them. Philip Schaff further writes:
The illegitimate offspring of the Crusaders by Moslem women, called pullani, were a degenerate race, marked by avarice, faithlessness, and debauchery.[16]
In Daimbert's comments in the Official Summary of the 1st Crusade, he notes that many crusaders boasted how they rode in the blood of their enemies, whether they were children or women:
And, if you desire to know what was done about the enemy whom we found there, know that in the portico of Solomon and his Temple, our men rode in the blood of the Saracens (i.e. Muslims) up to the knees of the horses.[17]
One witness observed:
...there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes, and after that "happily and crying for joy" our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude.
In the words of The Archbishop of Tyre, he wrote:
It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished.[18]
Havoc was wreaked in the city. Philip Schaff notes:
The Christian occupation of Palestine did not bring with it a reign of peace. The kingdom was torn by the bitter intrigues of barons and ecclesiastics, while it was being constantly threatened from without. The inner strife was the chief source of weakness.[19]
Encyclopaedia of Britannica states:
The great Muslim sanctuaries became Christian churches, and in 1149 the Church of the Holy Sepulchre as it exists today was consecrated. Muslims and Jews were barred from living in the city.[20]
So thus in the light of the above cited evidence, Muslims and Jews were barred from living in the city. Their intolerant policies alienated the local populace. One of the sons of Islam recaptured Jerusalem and announcing that the Jews are allowed to return and live peacefully under the rule of the Muslims. The German-Jewish historian of the Nineteenth Century, Heinrich Graetz stated that the Sultan, opened the whole kingdom to the persecuted Jews, so they came to it, seeking security and finding justice.[21] The Spanish poet Yehuda al-Harizi, who was in Jerusalem in 1207 CE, described the significance for the Jews of the recovery of Jerusalem by Saladin :
God aroused the spirit of the prince of the Ishmaelites [Saladin], a prudent and courageous man, who came with his entire army, besieged Jerusalem, took it and had it proclaimed throughout the country that he would receive and accept the entire race of Ephraim, wherever they came from. And so we came from all comers of the world to take up residence here. We now live here in the shadow of peace.[22]
The British Historian Karen Armstrong said regarding the capture of Jerusalem:
On 2 October 1187 Saladin and his army entered Jerusalem as conquerors and for the next 800 years Jerusalem would remain a Muslim city... Saladin kept his word, and conquered the city according to the highest Islamic ideals. He did not take revenge for the 1099 massacre, as the Koran advised (16:127), and now that hostilities had ceased he ended the killing (2:193-194). Not a single Christian was killed and there was no plunder. The ransoms were deliberately very low...[23]
P.H. Newby stated:
The Crusades were fascinated by a Muslim leader who possessed virtues they assumed were Christian. To them to his Muslim contemporaries and to us, it still remains remarkable that in times as harsh and bloody as these a man of great power should have been so little corrupted by it."[24]

The Second Crusade
The second crusade was initiated by Bernard of Clairvaux in direct reply to the Seljuk Muslims who liberated the the town of Edessa. Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade, “The Christian glorifies in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified”. [25]
The Seljuk Muslims saved the whole Islamic domains from total extinction in regard to the wholesale slaughter propagated by the crusaders of populations in Maarat Al-Numan, Antioch and Jerusalem. When they (i.e. Crusaders) conquered the town of Tanis in the Nile delta, they literally slaughtered the inhabitants who happened to be the Coptic Christians. Even their brethren couldn’t escape their spree of murder and rapine. More atrocities were commited against the Jews in Mainz, Worms, Cologne, Speyer and Strasburg. The collapse of the second Crusade caused a deep dismay. They attempted to attack Damascus but due the lack of trust between their allies, it failed dramatically. Their wholesale atrocities continues to prove why the Crusades are noted as one of the most egregious wars

The Third Crusade
Before the advent of the third Crusade, Jerusalem was liberated by Saladin who restored peace to the Holy Land and allowing the persecuted Jews to return. Richard and Philip besieged the Muslim city Acre and the city surrendered in 1191. Richard imprisoned the Muslim soldiers alongside with their wives and children and announced a prisoner exchange. A failure of communications in the negotiations resulted in Richard ordering the executions of 3000 Muslim soldiers and their wives and children in front of Saladin and his army. This ferocious act committed by Richard reveals how below the Christian rulers were in comparison with the ideal Christian character.

The Spanish Inquisition
Thomas once again conceals the Spanish Inquisition which primary target were the Jews and the Muslims. They were coercively, and insincerely, converted to Christianity. It does not come as a suprise since Christianity gained most of its followers through forced conversions. Compton's Concise Encyclopaedia states:
This was a quasi-ecclesiastical tribunal established in 1478 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella primarily to examine converted Jews, and later converted Muslims, and punish those who were insincere in the conversion.... The Spanish Inquisition was much harsher than the medieval Inquisition and the death penalty was more often exacted, sometimes in mass autos-da-fe. It judged cases of bigamy, seduction, usury, and other crimes, and was active in Spain and her colonies. Estimates of its victims vary widely, ranging from less than 4,000 to more than 30,000 during its existence...[26]
Encyclopaedia Britannica, states:
The Inquisition's secret procedures, its eagerness to accept denunciations, its use of torture, the absence of counsel for the accused, the lack of any right to confront hostile witnesses, and the practice of confiscating the property of those who were condemned and sharing it between the Inquisition, the crown, and the accusers—all this inspired great terror, as indeed it was meant to do.[27]
The only sole reason why the Muslims surrendered peacefully was due the fact that the Christian officials made a binding treaty with the Muslims which is also known as the ‘treaty of 1492’. In that treaty, the Christian officials promised religious tolerance to the Muslims and the Jews. It was an attempt to win religious tolerance for all the Muslims and Jews left in Spain. Since the Muslims were no longer the rulers of Andalusia, they hoped at least that they would be permitted to worship their Lord, The One God, in the manner presented by the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). However, in 1499 CE, Ximenes initiated a campaign to coerce the Muslims of Southern Muslim Spain to Christianity. P. de Gayangos writes:
As a result of his endeavours, it is reported that on 8th December 1499 about three thousand Moors were baptized by him and a leading mosque in Granada was converted into a church. 'Converts' were encouraged to surrender their Islamic books, several thousands of which were destroyed by Ximenes in a public bonfire. A few rare books on medicine were kept aside for the University of Alcala.[28]
The Muslims were dragged through the streets of the Muslim quarter for rejecting to adopt the Christian faith. Consequently, the Muslim initiated a riot protesting that the treaty was not honoured. P. de Gayangos further writes:
Ximenes immediately denounced the uprising as a rebellion, and claimed that by this the Moors had forfeited all their rights under the terms of capitulation. They should therefore be given the choice between baptism and expulsion. The government agreed with his arguments, and Ximenes then began the mass baptism of the population of Granada, most of whom preferred this fate to the more hazardous one of deportation to Africa. The speed with which the baptisms were carried out meant that there was no time in which to instruct the Moors in the fundamentals of their new religion, so that inevitably most of the new converts became Christian only in name.[29]
Additionally, it has been estimated that at least 50,000 Muslims were forced to convert in the mass baptism of Granada by Ximenes. A small amount of Jews and Muslims were deported to North-Africa. The tolerance of the Muslims for the Jews never decreased, so they aided the Jews in the progress of the deportation. In spite of the circumstances, a new Golden Age flourished in North-Africa. In Andarax, mosques were blown up with gun-powder and at Belfique, all the Muslim men were put to the sword whilst the women were taken as slaves. The Muslim children were separated from their parents and handed over to the Church in order to be brought up as Catholics. The Arabic books including the Glorious Qur’an were collected and burnt. H. Kamen writes:
Since the majority of Muslims had been 'converted', the offer of emigration was an empty one, and the 'legal equality' granted by Ferdinand was but a mockery of the terms of the Treaty of Granada which he had so blatantly permitted to be broken. Behind the words of conciliation and peace, the general intention of the Church to eliminate the practice of Islam was unmistakable, and now that the Muslims of southern Andalusia, or the Moriscos as they were called, were within the jurisdiction of the Spanish Inquisition, the Inquisitors embarked on the task of detecting 'relapsed heretics' and secret Muslims. The communities of Muslims which had survived the suppression of the rebellion, or reformed after it, were repeatedly harassed by the Inquisitors.[30]
Thomas writes:
The ancient faith of Christianity, with its respect for women and antipathy toward slavery, not only survived but flourished.
On the contrary, Christianity advocated the support of slavery. The Encyclopaedia of Britannica states:
Judaic and Islamic canonical texts refer frequently to slavery and treat it as a natural condition that might befall anyone. But they view it as a condition that should be gotten over quickly. Islamic practice was based on the assumption that the outsider rapidly became an insider and consequently had to be manumitted after six years. New Testament Christianity, on the other hand, had no prescriptions that slaves be manumitted. Canon law sanctioned slavery. This was attributable at least partially to Christianity's primary focus on spiritual values and salvation after death rather than on temporal conditions and the present life. Under such a regime it mattered little whether someone was a slave or a free person while living on earth.[31]
In regard to how women are viewed in the Christian tradition, Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem produced an authentic comparison of the treatment of women between the Christian and Islamic tradition.

Conclusions
It is quite clear that the nature of this article is based on wishful thinking rather than concrete evidence. A thorough analysis of every evidence pertained to the Crusades would conclude that the Crusades were a colonial venture motivated by greed, lack of opportunity in Frankish Europe and territorial expansion. Thomas attempts to justify the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent people during the Crusades by basing his opinions on fictitious evidence. It is time for the Christian revisionist historians to step out of denial and acknowledge that Christians are not on a moral high ground. And Allah knows best!

References
[1] James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, p. 68-70.
[2] Mohammed the Prophet of Islam, Riyadh 1989-p.4
[3] Lawrence W. Browne, The Prospects of Islam, London, 1944, p.14
[4] T.W. Arnold, The Spread of Islam in the World, p.34
[5] John McManners (Ed.), The Oxford Illustrated History of Christianity, Oxford University Press, 1992, p.174
[6] Ira Zepp Jr., A Muslim Primer (1992), Wakefield Editions, US, p. 134
[7] Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
[8] Dr. Gustav LeBon, Civilization of the Arabs, p.30
[9] Ibid, p.30
[10] Count de Castri, Islam: Impressions and Studies
[11] T.W. Arnold, The Spread of Islam in the World, p.52
[12] Joel T. Rosenthal, Encarta
[13] Catholic Encyclopaedia
[14] August C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eye Witnesses and Participants, (Gloucester, Massachusetts: Peter Smith, 1958)
[15] History of the Christian Church, by Philip Schaff, Volume V, Chapter 7
[16] Ibid
[17] In Krey, op. cit., 275.
[18] F. Turner, Beyond Geography (New York, 1980)
[19] History of the Christian Church, by Philip Schaff, Volume V, Chapter 7
[20] Encyclopaedia of Britannica
[21] Graetz in his Geschichte der Juden [History of the Jews], vol. 11, published in 1853
[22] F. E. Peters, Jerusalem, p. 363.
[23] Karen Armstrong, Holy War, p. 185
[24] Newby, P. H. Saladin in his Time, 1992. Dorset Press, New York.
[25] Haught, Holy Horrors: p26
[26] Compton's Concise Encyclopedia, Inquisition
[27] Encyclopædia Britannica
[28] P de Gayangos, "Muhammadan Dynasties in Spain," Vol. II.
[29] Ibid
[30] H. Kamen, "The Spanish Inquisition."
[31] Encyclopaedia Britannica
Reply

~Stranger~
10-16-2006, 06:35 PM
No sister, it hasnt sounded least offensive to me, reps to U for being so personal and blunt.

Well perhaps my comments about muslims being hypocrite agitated U and rightly so, but that wasnt personal comment at all sister, it has a valid reason behind it, I m gonna explain to U.

I can bet that muslims themselves have killed more muslims rather than non-muslims. Crusade happened, and stopped, may ALLAH punish crusaders till eternity in hell. but killing of muslims by muslims is still in progress, its time that present time killing should be stopped and than crusade should be discuessed. Coz I feel that we cant change history and only take few lessons from it. I hope U dont agree with it.

Let a news of alleged insult of holy quran by any non-muslim break out, U will see whole muslims Ummah on the roads, shouting their heart out, as if they are deeply hurt and in anger. But ask them to follow the laws of the book they recite, parrot, and make drama out of it........they will simply look the other way. Isnt this action amounts to hypocricy to U?

I bet U wont find a pork shop in any muslim nation, but U can find pleanty of banks paying interest to their muslim customers. isnt this amount to hypocricy? All being done under proctection of muslim government.

There is much more to emphasize my POV, but I feel this suffice, if not, than plz ask for further reasons why I term muslims as biggest bunch of hypocrites. Let me make it clear that not all but majority of muslims are like this, so its nothing personal and benifit of doubt is given to each and everyone.

Thanks.
talking about offensive posts huh??

yes there r so called muslims like that (and that why i hate males) some muslim touch quran only to remove the dust of it .......

but i assure u its not the case here. u will find many brothers and sisters asking and looking for banks who dont deal with interest

there r muslim who murder other muslims but (as u probably know) there s a certain (and harsh for the non muslims hearts) for them- beheading. we even have so called muslim gays but is it islamic??

u have 7,460 muslims here but do u see any murderer here?? (if there r any- plz raise ur hand and be prepared for beheading).

u have indeed showed ur ignorance and stupidity thank u very much

my advice to u is.............
next time u want to talk about islam- just do ur homeworks and dont make a fool of urself in public.

i pity u
Reply

Ulysses
10-17-2006, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Stranger~
u have indeed showed ur ignorance and stupidity thank u very much

my advice to u is.............
next time u want to talk about islam- just do ur homeworks and dont make a fool of urself in public.
Such patience, moderation, humility, and compassion are breathtaking to behold.

I have one question about the Crusades that I would like to address to all readers of this thread.

Have you ever met anyone who personally suffered in the Crusades? Have you ever met anyone whose mother, or father, or even grandmother or grandfather suffered in the Crusades.

Given that the last Crusade happened, what, 300 years ago, my questions are of course rhetorical, but my purpose is simple. My point is that, as long as history is used as a reference for legitimizing vindictive violence, any event, no matter how long ago, will serve as a basis for violence. Such an unwillingness to reconcile, and such a strong insistence on punishing people for the behavior of their long dead ancestors is not only archaic, but unjust in terms of contemporary international law.

http://www.ipu.org/conf-e/110/110-1.htm
Reply

جوري
10-17-2006, 10:57 PM
Sure we have met lots of people who have suffered from the crusades and continue to suffer today......... Stickinh Muslims into prison camps for no reason and holding them on no charges (Guantanamo ), When waging war against covered up Muslim women and passing laws enforcing nakedness and degeneration of thought as the norm ...... when killing and maiming and torturing people in chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine, Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan for crimes committed by your Govt. to establish its dreams of world domination in the name of the Christian Bush who is deluded somehow that Jesus was a white Republican..... we call it a crusade........ all all them folk are Muslims last I checked... ..... please don't come here and speak of how tolerant the West has been against a minority of people......... I think the West has been pushing so far.... everyone even moderates are just about ready to explode........want to speak of international laws being broken, look at how many Generva convention laws being challenged and ignored by the U.S, your whole new plethora of legislative changes are rendering Americans themselves into criminals..... really man broaden your horizon a little... where do you live? in a bubble with a few pseudo-intellects who share your view and can attest to it? This reminds me of your 70% of the population are anti-Islamic head cover, for which you seem to have missed the point entirely........... so we'll walk you through it in one last time ..........
1-1.4 billion Muslims... surely can't be anti head cover
2-2 billion xtian if they were to follow their book it would be incumbent upon them to sport the same head cover... "The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head."
3-15 million Jews who again must cover by religious law and usually do........
4- A billion Hindu, I am not sure what their opinion is on the matter... the two hindus I do know are semi-conservative in their dress.
so in which cluster pf people did you get your fecund little consensus from.....hypocrites anonymous ???????
Nothing is as dangerous as little knowledge.......


Brace yourself for a man-made apocalyptical event to hasten the coming of the WASP Christ......

on this note...... I would like to call it quits and go into a Sabbatical of prostration these last few days of Ramadan
peace to all........ and Eid Mubarak to my fellow Muslims
May Allah yatqabal sya'mana wa syamkoum Insha'Allah......
Reply

justahumane
10-18-2006, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Personal or not, u "generalized." The way u said it referred to every Muslim. Please dont expect me to sit and let ur comments fly under my nose. I respect everyone, but i wont let someone make a comment about all Muslims instead of the few and let it pass. My reason is just as valid as yours. If i wanted too i could have generalized that all hindus are racist and hate Muslims, but I wont cuz i dont know that. So next time, chose your words wisely and be clear as what u want to say.

Peace
Well sister sorry if my words gave u a feeling of generalization. My comments were not for each and every muslim. Rather I wanted and still want to restrict my comment for majority of muslims today. If U think that I m wrong, than plz ask, I will try to prove and if I cant, than I will tender my sincere apology for my comments.

Permit me to repeat that ur personal remarks didnt offend me at all, rather I was comfortable and happy with them.

I hope this time I m clear with my message, not all muslims, no way, but a majority of them are like what i said.

BTW I would have appreciated if U had refuted the arguments I made to support my POV. But hope U are looking the other way.
Reply

justahumane
10-18-2006, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Stranger~
talking about offensive posts huh??

yes there r so called muslims like that (and that why i hate males) some muslim touch quran only to remove the dust of it .......

but i assure u its not the case here. u will find many brothers and sisters asking and looking for banks who dont deal with interest

there r muslim who murder other muslims but (as u probably know) there s a certain (and harsh for the non muslims hearts) for them- beheading. we even have so called muslim gays but is it islamic??

u have 7,460 muslims here but do u see any murderer here?? (if there r any- plz raise ur hand and be prepared for beheading).

u have indeed showed ur ignorance and stupidity thank u very much

my advice to u is.............
next time u want to talk about islam- just do ur homeworks and dont make a fool of urself in public.

i pity u

No sister I was not talking about any offensive post. And there was none too. Where u got this idea from? May I know?

I know that there are many brothrs and sisters who hate earning dirty money of interest. But sadly they form very very small group of this large muslim world. And offcourse I was not talking about them but for a majority of those who are happy dealing with interest and that too shamelessly.

BTW Sister, U have admitted that u hate males, is this Islamic? Is even hatered Islamic? I will be looking forward for ur kind answer.

Well do u doubt on my accusation that muslims have killed more muslims rather than non-muslims? if Yes than plz ask, Inshallah I will try to convince U.

there r muslim who murder other muslims but (as u probably know) there s a certain (and harsh for the non muslims hearts) for them- beheading. we even have so called muslim gays but is it islamic??

u have 7,460 muslims here but do u see any murderer here?? (if there r any- plz raise ur hand and be prepared for beheading).

I have been regularly trying to emphasize that a major portion of muslims that we see today are munafiqeen/hypocrites. and Hypocricy is not Islamic I believe.

And whats relevence of ur intelligent comment regarding beheading here? Most probably U want to terrorize a stupid. LOL.

Thanks for ur advice sister, but I dont think that I m ready to listen, I will go the way I was, coz I feel that I m saying whats the truth.

I wish that U had come up with certain views why I showed my stupitidy/ignorance/made fool of myself in public comments. And no, I dont say that its an offensive post. Rather I m giving reps to U in return, plz check it out. And no need to thank me for that, U have already done that for my ignorance and stupidity, thats already enough.:happy:

Thanks.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
10-18-2006, 04:26 PM
I appreciate your words justahumane :) InshAllah we can have more understanding :)

Salaam Alaikum
Reply

Bittersteel
10-18-2006, 04:39 PM
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
Reply

justahumane
10-19-2006, 08:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I appreciate your words justahumane :) InshAllah we can have more understanding :)

Salaam Alaikum

InshaAllah Sis. Thanks.
Reply

~Stranger~
10-20-2006, 07:05 PM
I have been regularly trying to emphasize that a major portion of muslims that we see today are munafiqeen/hypocrites.
and Hypocricy is not Islamic I believe.
Let a news of alleged insult of holy quran by any non-muslim break out, U will see whole muslims Ummah on the roads, shouting their heart out, as if they are deeply hurt and in anger. But ask them to follow the laws of the book they recite, parrot, and make drama out of it........they will simply look the other way. Isnt this action amounts to hypocricy to U?
this is exactly why i hate males
read my post and (try to) understand what i mean (although i doubt that very much)

but as ull probably notice in my post- i believe that REAL muslim men who follow the whole Quran and not just the parts that allow them to marry 4 women (something they love very much): these r the real muslims not ppl who claim to be so

so its not very wise (and intelligent) of u to say "muslims" but rather call them in their real names

whats relevence of ur intelligent comment regarding beheading here?
i was talking about muslims killing other muslims and said that islam doesnt tolerate such action if done intentionaly and there is a special punushment for ppl who do it- beheading (now u didnt need a genius to get that did u?? )

muslims themselves have killed more muslims rather than non-muslims.
show ur proof and give specific info about: where and when and why??

but the bollom line is- do u think these actions (if they really happened) r islamic?? or just done by ppl who claim to be muslims??

i assure u there r "muslim" rapists but is it wise to say "muslims rape... etc etc"

ill answer in ur place- NO!!!!
Reply

justahumane
10-21-2006, 09:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Stranger~
this is exactly why i hate males
read my post and (try to) understand what i mean (although i doubt that very much)

but as ull probably notice in my post- i believe that REAL muslim men who follow the whole Quran and not just the parts that allow them to marry 4 women (something they love very much): these r the real muslims not ppl who claim to be so

so its not very wise (and intelligent) of u to say "muslims" but rather call them in their real names

i was talking about muslims killing other muslims and said that islam doesnt tolerate such action if done intentionaly and there is a special punushment for ppl who do it- beheading (now u didnt need a genius to get that did u?? )

show ur proof and give specific info about: where and when and why??

but the bollom line is- do u think these actions (if they really happened) r islamic?? or just done by ppl who claim to be muslims??

i assure u there r "muslim" rapists but is it wise to say "muslims rape... etc etc"

ill answer in ur place- NO!!!!
Well Sister I read ur post and tried to understand the logic behind ur hatred for men. I dont know that what to say, I have all the sympathies with U,and ur twin out there. But its not at all fair to say that U hate men. The world will be a very tough place to live in if all men would be like what U think of them.

And I think that its hatred inside U which stops U to read any particular post written by a man in proper context. Where I said that any action which I m quoting here done by muslims are Islamic? Even whre I used the word Islam in this thread and pointed my finger at the religion? If u feel that I did, than plz let me know, if u cant,than its okay.

BTW U didnt answer my specific question, is ur action hating men is Islamic? is hatred Islamic?

Well I think that U know about Killing of muslims by muslims in Darfur, I hope U know about gassing of kurds by ppls of Saddam, I hope U know about massacre of muslims in erstwhile East Bengal (Now Bangla Desh) by muslim army, I hope U know about hazara massacre by talibaans. If U dont than plz ask for links, though I m not very good in this job of providing links,but InshAllah I will work overtime to lead U to truth.

To conclude I will request U to get rid of sack of hatred U are bearing on ur shoulder, not all men are alike, just like not all muslims/kuffar are alike.

I m short of time right now, otherwise there is so much to respond to U. but there is always next time InshAllah.

Peace
Reply

raushan
11-05-2006, 09:21 AM
Q. How can a religion such as Islam expect to thrive when it espouses jihad and revenge and all of the things that most of the other religions of the world would deem to be the work of the ‘devil’? Did the perpetrators of the recent terrorist acts expect the praise of Allah at the end of their journey, after having killed so many people? Perhaps the rest of the world should become as tolerant of Islam, as Islam is to the rest of the world.

(Danny ; dano)

Q. The Quran does not describe a peaceful, tolerant religion. The terrorists are not disobeying the holy book. They are following it to the letter. The Quran tells us: “not to make friendship with Jews and Christians” (5:51), “kill the disbelievers wherever we find them” (2:191), “murder them and treat them harshly” (9:123), “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” (9:5). The Quran demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises “If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them” (8:65). This is the bulk of the Quran. You are welcome to counter with a handful of verses like: “There is no compulsion in religion,”, and “To you, your religion; to me mine.”

But for every friendly remark like that, there are 10 calls for killing of Pagans, Jews, and Infidels, and vivid descriptions of how they will suffer in hell (boiling water poured over their heads, clothes cut from fire, etc). Can any reasonable person conclude that the Quran encourages freedom, tolerance, and equal treatment of our brothers?

Don’t get me wrong, the Christians’ Bible has the same proportion of good to bad. Jesus has benefited from 2000 years of good public relations, without a doubt. Let’s stop pretending that any of these “holy books” contain the secret for living a peaceful co-existence and recognise what is the universal truth in the practice of all ethical systems: we, as humans, have the ability to recognise good and evil, and it has nothing to do with what is written in the ancient tomes of wisdom. If all the people of the world were to follow the teachings of the ancient Prophets of their choice ‘to the letter’, we would have a non-stop world-wide holy war.

(Smith)


A. Islam could not have reached through the dormant stage of the past centuries to re-emerge once again as the fastest growing religion on earth today without its concept of Jihad. Yes, it would not have thrived if the Jihad was what you think it is and what some terrorist organisations proclaim. Assuming as you believe that the recent terrorist acts in USA were the work of so-called Muslims or Jihadis, it is obvious that this has driven millions of neutral non-Muslims away from Islam. Yet Jihad is a pious pillar of Islam which has always been attracting millions of human beings to embrace Islam. Let me explain in brief the Islamic concept of war and peace.

The Quran speaks of lifting arms in strictly two situations.

In the first situation, the permission is granted to defend themselves when in a Muslim state, they are attacked by those who had already driven Muslims out of their country for the specific reason that they professed and worshipped one God. Remember, it does not allow a Muslim majority province of a non-Muslim majority country to revolt and demand a separate Muslim state. If Muslims are oppressed in a non-Muslim majority country for their religion (not for social or political conflicts), they are advised to migrate to a Muslim state, instead of taking to arms. But if an independent Muslim state is attacked by an enemy of Islam for their religion, then Quran permits them to defend. See the following order of the Quran.

“Permission (to take up arms) is hereby given to those who are attacked because they have been wronged. Allah has power to grant them victory: those who have been unjustly driven from their homes, only because they said: ‘Our Lord is Allah...”. (22:39-40)

The second situation is when Islam orders an attack instead of a defensive war. When a group of people are oppressed in a country and they are crying for help, Islam orders its followers to go out to fight the oppressor. The relevant order is as under:

“And why should you not fight for the cause of Allah, and for the oppressed men, women and children who say, ‘Deliver us Lord, from this city of wrongdoers, send forth to us a guardian from your presence ; send to us one that will help us” (4:75)

When the believers are attacked, they are given permission to defend, but it has been emphatically made clear that justice should not be a casualty even while fighting. As soon as the attackers pledge to keep away from sedition, the believers are ordered to stop fighting.

“Fight for the sake of Allah those who fight against you but do not transgress. Allah does not love the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. The sedition is worse than carnage. But do not fight them within the precincts of the sacred Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Fight against them until sedition is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight not except the oppressors” (2:190-93)

The above verses contain one of the verses objected to by Mr. Smith. The act of a self- proclaimed protector of human rights cannot match the balanced teaching of the holy Book you so much despise. In its every above mentioned phrase, there is a check. “...Do not transgress... Allah does not love the transgressors... Do not fight them near the Mosque unless they attack you... If they desist, know that Allah is forgiving, Merciful... But if they desist, fight not except the oppressors...”. Mr. Smith has taken out the sentences from in-between to prove the cruelty of the teachings of the holy Book. Similar is the case of other verses that are quoted out of context. Please consider that these instructions are not the instruction for normal peace times. These are the war time instructions when war is imposed upon the believers. Quran instructs that the war is not declared on every unbeliever. Even during the war with the unbelievers, distinction has to be made in case of those who have treaties with the believers. Treaties have to be honoured. Even with those who impose war upon the believers, instructions are given for a respite from war in the four sacred months.

“Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers, except those who have fully honoured their treaties with you and aided none against you. With these, keep faith until their treaties have run their term. Allah loves the righteous. When the sacred months are over, slay the unbelievers (who are fighting you) wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way. Allah is Forgiving Merciful. (9:4-5)

Above is another of the objected upon (9:5) verse, but in proper context it becomes altogether different from what was projected. To understand the implication of another verse 8:65, that is objected to, you have to read the context from 8:61. The instruction here is to accept a peace proposal even if there is fear of deception from the enemy. Allah gives assurance that if you do so and the enemy deceives in the garb of peace, He will help them against great odds. See the following:

“If they incline to peace, make peace with them and put your trust in Allah. Surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing. Should they seek to deceive you, Allah is all sufficient for you... (In that case) rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, you shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred they shall rout a thousand...” (8:61-65) Unless the fighting is imposed upon them, the believers are told to keep away from war even if there is a probability of treachery in the garb of their offer of peace. Can the so-called human ethics of the present Super power match with this?

“If they (the attackers) incline towards peace, make peace with them and put your trust in Allah. Surely He is Hearing, the Knowing. Should they seek to deceive you (do not reject peace on that probability, for) Allah is All-Sufficient for you...” (6:61-62) “...if they keep away from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, Allah bids you not to harm them”. (4:90)

“If from those who ascribe partners to Allah even one person (during the war) seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah and then (even if he does not embrace Islam), deliver him to his place of safety, for they are men ignorant (from the reality of Islam)”. (9:6)

Qur’an asks the believers not to lose the sense of justice even for the enemies.

“O believers, be dutiful to Allah and bearers of just witness. Do not allow your hatred for other men to turn you away from justice. Deal justly ; justice is nearer to true piety...” (5:8)

Regarding the charge of teaching not to make non-Muslim friends, the short instruction in 5:51 above quoted by Mr. Smith, is governed by the following two verses:

“Let believers not make friends with unbelievers against the (just) interests of the believers...” (2:28)

“Allah does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither made war on your religion nor driven you from your homes or abetted others to do so. Allah loves the equitable. But He forbids you to make friends with those who have fought against you on account of your religion and driven you from your homes or abetted others to do so. Those who make friends with them are wrongdoers”. (60:8-9)

Remember again, the above verses are relevant only when there is war imposed upon the believers. The general instruction for all times whether it is peace time or war is given in the following verse:

“...Cooperate with every one (whether he is a non-Muslim) in what is good and pious and do not cooperate with anyone (even if he is called a Muslim) in sin and transgression...” (5:2) Br. Kevin Smith has probably read somewhere the translation of verses of the Quran taken out of context. He is absolutely misinformed that such verses outnumber the message of peace. In fact, in between the verses concerning war, there always is the directive of restraint and conciliation. The conduct of the Prophet () is a historical testimony to the teaching of the Quran.

In the course of war, the Prophet () enforced a code of conduct for the believers. “No women, no children, no old men and no labourers would be killed if they were not involved in direct combat even if they were on the battlefield to help the enemy ranks indirectly”.The Prophet () adhered to the above code of war and peace in his life. He had to migrate with his followers to Madinah, away from his home town Makkah, leaving all their belongings back. All the three major conflicts with the Makkans took place when they attacked on Madinah. Eight years after the migration, he marched towards Madinah to fight because the Makkans had killed his allies against a treaty made 2 1/2 years back and the oppressed allies appealed for his help. History has never witnessed such a show of compassion by a conqueror. In those 8 years, he had become so strong that the Makkans did not dare to fight him. When he was entering into Makkah with his army, his head bowed in thankfulness to God, a senior commander announced, “Today is the day of revenge”. The Prophet’s face turned red with anger and he ordered to strip the commander off the honour of bearing the flag. Then he declared, “Today is the day of compassion”. When the victorious army entered the city without resistance, he proclaimed general amnesty for all those who had tormented him and his followers for 13 years. He did not even claim the homes and belongings of his own and his followers.

Islam is not intolerant. It is the message of peace for the mankind. Jesus Christ was an esteemed prophet of Islam and a messenger of peace as were the other prophets mentioned in Old Testament. You have not read Qur’an and what you find revolting in the Bible is because of distortions and interpolations in the events therein.

We, as humans, can never show the ability to recognise good and evil without adhering to and following what you call is written in the ancient tomes of wisdom. The human rights record of USSR and China and the much tainted record of USA in Vietnam and 22 other countries since world war II testifies to it. You talk about the danger of world war because of tomes of wisdom while the world has already witnessed two world wars by the mighty wise European nations because they were wiser than the ancient tomes of wisdom. The world can only become a universal brotherhood if it heeds to the balanced teaching of the Prophets. Let no terrorist, by exploiting scriptures deceive you.

Islam is not Intolerant
by S. Abdullah Tariq
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 09:36 AM
In regards to how many in the west view islam as a religion of terror, it is understandable why the connection would be made. many westerners do not know any muslims, in fact many have never met any muslims. So they live their (somewhat sheltered) lives until one day they see on tv a masked man cuttting a westerners head off with a knife, while his buddies shout "Allah akbar!" So now they start paying attention to the tv images, and they see car bombs, planes flying into buildings, bus bombings, suicide bombs, gunmen, all representing groups with names like 'Islamic Jihad'.
If you are one of these people that has not ever met a muslim, what would you think?
Reply

Muezzin
11-05-2006, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
In regards to how many in the west view islam as a religion of terror, it is understandable why the connection would be made. many westerners do not know any muslims, in fact many have never met any muslims. So they live their (somewhat sheltered) lives until one day they see on tv a masked man cuttting a westerners head off with a knife, while his buddies shout "Allah akbar!" So now they start paying attention to the tv images, and they see car bombs, planes flying into buildings, bus bombings, suicide bombs, gunmen, all representing groups with names like 'Islamic Jihad'.
If you are one of these people that has not ever met a muslim, what would you think?
I've never met a baseball player. When one flew a plane into the side of a building in New York a couple of weeks ago, I didn't automatically assume that all baseball players are crap pilots.
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I've never met a baseball player. When one flew a plane into the side of a building in New York a couple of weeks ago, I didn't automatically assume that all baseball players are crap pilots.
Come now Muezzin, I have come to expect more thoughtful answers from you.
I am not saying it is right or wrong, just basic human behavior. We make judgements based on the facts we recieve, and most people don't realize that they should dig a little deeper. I believe your answer was an attempt to mislead us. Obviously most of us are not going to make any assumptions about baseball players, but we are talking about a very different scenario. And the perception by those that don't understand what a muslim is (ie. all muslims are arabs, right?), right or wrong, is what they have been lead to believe. They have nothing else to go on, without making an effort to learn.

I don't think it is honest to say that you don't at least understand why these people think this way. Look at the way that many people in muslim countries view americans for example. Many have been lead to believe that it is a mass orgy of wealth an immorality filled with sinners. I have been to america, it is something different than that, there are many different kinds of people there.

IF you are someone that would find out all the facts first, then bravo, you are an exception.

(actually I would assume most baseball players are crap pilots, I don't think that many ever have flown a plane, have they?)
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-05-2006, 06:06 PM
I don't think islam is a religion of terror, but i do think that killing gays like some muslims want is just disgusting. and killing apostales is bad. and killing thieves is bad. yes, they may be "sins" but to kill them for it? WOW. i don't see why apostales and gays should be punished, and thieves just need a little rehab.. but not death!

otherwise then the punishments of shar'iah, islam isn't all that bad. it could use a reform [like reform judaism] and i'm sure that will happen sooner or later.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-05-2006, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
I don't think islam is a religion of terror, but i do think that killing gays like some muslims want is just disgusting. and killing apostales is bad. and killing thieves is bad. yes, they may be "sins" but to kill them for it? WOW. i don't see why apostales and gays should be punished, and thieves just need a little rehab.. but not death!

otherwise then the punishments of shar'iah, islam isn't all that bad. it could use a reform [like reform judaism] and i'm sure that will happen sooner or later.

Hi thirdwatch. :)



"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)


Also, if you believe God punished the people of Lot (peace be upon him.) then realise that you don't have the same authority as God, and you should also not like that act.


And no, islaam is a perfect religion. People may try to distort it, but that will never happen because Allaah Almighty has perfected this religion and chosen to preserve it till the day of judgement.



Peace.
Reply

Rou
11-05-2006, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ulysses
Unfortunately, that minority makes itself quite visible, and it has done a very good job of establishing itself as the "representative" of Islam, even if that is untrue.

I would think you would be most upset with this minority within your ranks, and not with the West for its slow and patient years of enduring the acts of provocation by that minority?

I would put the question to you Sir/Madam, how are you going to ELIMINATE that minority from your society(s)? If you do not have a viable plan, or if you and your congregations do not have a viable plan, then things will most likely get considerably worse before they get better.

Incorrect the media makes them very visble and the gulible follow suit...

How many bearded muslims have blown up planes? or trains???

i will tell you none...

yet in the airports it is those with beards and religous books that get picked on and stared at!?

how many times have muslims attacked the west!? and then look at how man times the west has ended up in the middle east with an intrest all of its own!??

wake up things are not the way they are seen...its called media control the amount of muslims suffering under western armies is way higher than the amount of westerners harmed by any muslim...
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
Incorrect the media makes them very visble and the gulible follow suit...

How many bearded muslims have blown up planes? or trains???

i will tell you none...

yet in the airports it is those with beards and religous books that get picked on and stared at!?

how many times have muslims attacked the west!? and then look at how man times the west has ended up in the middle east with an intrest all of its own!??

wake up things are not the way they are seen...its called media control the amount of muslims suffering under western armies is way higher than the amount of westerners harmed by any muslim...
People make a connection between muslims and terrorism. They also make a (justified) connection between bearded men with religious books dressed with eastern clothing and muslims. It is natural that if they make these two connections seperately that they will tie them together. The whole beard thing is a non-issue. People don't care about the beard, it is the connection with muslim and terrorism that they are focusing on. I can't tell you how many bearded muslims have blown things up, but I can mention a few where muslims have blown things up.

I don't quite understand the problem you are having with this. If a person blows something/someone up and a muslim group claims responsibility, what's the problem with acknowledging that? It is only the truth.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-05-2006, 07:59 PM
Hi Gary.


The difference is that the guy walking in the street with a beard isn't the one who blew so and so place up. It was another guy. Therefore the people shouldn't blame him for what another guy did - the same way i shouldn't blame another irish man because of what someone from the IRA did.



Peace.
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi Gary.


The difference is that the guy walking in the street with a beard isn't the one who blew so and so place up. It was another guy. Therefore the people shouldn't blame him for what another guy did - the same way i shouldn't blame another irish man because of what someone from the IRA did.



Peace.
I agree.
At the same time, we must recognize where our danger comes from. Take a wasp for example. For the most part, on a midsummer day the vaste majority of wasps that buzz near you do not sting you. Yet inevitably, there is eventually one wasp that does, or has. I know that most will not, and so I don't freak out when one is near me. But I do keep an eye on it. Why? I have no way of knowing the difference between the wasp that is prone to stinging and the vaste majority that won't unless provoked.
I also keep a close eye on mean looking white guys with bald heads and lots of tattoos. Mean looking black guys with gang symbols tattoed on them. Big dogs with studded collars that don't wag their tails. And cars that drive too fast on the road.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-05-2006, 08:19 PM
Thats true gary, but when you look at these guys - you should judge them according to their beliefs right? So because their all part of a violent gang - it's good to avoid them.

Similarly, when you see a guy with a beard - try to look at his beliefs too - he's keeping a beard because he may be a practising muslim. And kindness is a sign of a practising muslim, therefore you should also look at his beliefs to realise that he isn't what the media portrays him as.


That's common sense isn't it? :)



Peace.
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 08:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Thats true gary, but when you look at these guys - you should judge them according to their beliefs right? So because their all part of a violent gang - it's good to avoid them.

Similarly, when you see a guy with a beard - try to look at his beliefs too - he's keeping a beard because he may be a practising muslim. And kindness is a sign of a practising muslim, therefore you should also look at his beliefs to realise that he isn't what the media portrays him as.


That's common sense isn't it? :)



Peace.

Yes, it is. Only there is more than that to consider. Using the wasp analogy again, the wasp has no beliefs. It has only one thing as a focus. Whatever is for the betterment of the colony. Gather food, defend, etc. I can pick any wasp, and it is not going to fly up and sting me. Yet I watch it. I let it be, but I still watch. It's focus has nothing to do with stinging me, but for my own protection I watch it.

There is another thing. True or not, many nonmuslims believe that there is at least a small portion of the muslim community that decieves nonmuslims to lull us into a sense of security, to take advantage of this at a later date. This may very well be not true, but it is not possible for you to prove this me. You may be unaware of it (not in the loop yourself), and so you deny it out of ignorance. You may be aware of it, and deny it as part of the deception. Or it may simply be not true. I don't know that it is true or not true, but just as a precaution, I watch.
Having said that, we do know that muslim men that seemed like ordinary citizens have bombed western targets.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-05-2006, 08:44 PM
But that can be said about anyone can't it? The media plays a big impact on the people to make them feel this way, and their successful alot of the time.


Anyway, i got nothing else to say because this has happened to the previous prophets and messengers of Allaah, they bring the message - and because the super-powers of that time don't want the people to accept it, they throw false accusations so the people fear being close to them to understand their faith.

Why is this? It's because they fear that if the people realise the truth of the worship of the one true God - the Creator of everyone of us, the super-powers will lose their authority. However, if someone is sincere - they will take risks to find out the truth, and Allaah Almighty will guide the sincere ones.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace. :)
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Thank's for the discussion.
Reply

Rou
11-05-2006, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
People make a connection between muslims and terrorism. They also make a (justified) connection between bearded men with religious books dressed with eastern clothing and muslims. It is natural that if they make these two connections seperately that they will tie them together. The whole beard thing is a non-issue. People don't care about the beard, it is the connection with muslim and terrorism that they are focusing on. I can't tell you how many bearded muslims have blown things up, but I can mention a few where muslims have blown things up.

I don't quite understand the problem you are having with this. If a person blows something/someone up and a muslim group claims responsibility, what's the problem with acknowledging that? It is only the truth.
Well you talked with Fi_Sabilillah sems like you agreed to disagree fair enough i would say no diffrent in plain there are things the media shows that are used to spread fear of something that is not exactly the way it seems and the people who know no better follow like sheep...

this being the case does not make it true...

majority of muslims are peacful yet beacuse the media concentrate on the bad ones the world follow like sheep.


also what the media does not state is there is a diffrence between terrorists who come over to another land to attack and those in there own land fighting they are massivly diffrent for the two acts that harmed innocents are terorisem indeed and quite sick...

however a man in his land fighting against what he see's as occupying forces is somewhat diffrent yet majority of the west think the world is packed full of muslim terrorists?

its misconception by the people and exagerated by the media and created by the goverment..

no doubt you may wish to disagree fairenough..that is your opinion and you are entitled to it...

:w:
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
no doubt you may wish to disagree fairenough..that is your opinion and you are entitled to it...
Actually I don't disagree with parts of your statement. A man fighting against occupying forces is not what I would define as a terrorist. A man detonating a car bomb in an Iraqi market, or fire bombing an Afghan school is a terrorist. The problem is not whether or not Islam supports this (assuming it does not), but that some muslims do.
Reply

GARY
11-06-2006, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Yes, it is. Only there is more than that to consider. Using the wasp analogy again, the wasp has no beliefs. It has only one thing as a focus. Whatever is for the betterment of the colony. Gather food, defend, etc. I can pick any wasp, and it is not going to fly up and sting me. Yet I watch it. I let it be, but I still watch. It's focus has nothing to do with stinging me, but for my own protection I watch it.

There is another thing. True or not, many nonmuslims believe that there is at least a small portion of the muslim community that decieves nonmuslims to lull us into a sense of security, to take advantage of this at a later date. This may very well be not true, but it is not possible for you to prove this me. You may be unaware of it (not in the loop yourself), and so you deny it out of ignorance. You may be aware of it, and deny it as part of the deception. Or it may simply be not true. I don't know that it is true or not true, but just as a precaution, I watch.
Having said that, we do know that muslim men that seemed like ordinary citizens have bombed western targets.
The part in bold is something that I wonder about. Why do any of you as muslims feel (assuming for the moment that it isn't true) that nonmuslims would think this? Where does this suspicion originate?
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
The part in bold is something that I wonder about. Why do any of you as muslims feel (assuming for the moment that it isn't true) that nonmuslims would think this? Where does this suspicion originate?
I used to go into some anti-islam rooms and this is all they talked about, Islam slowly taking over unless they stopped it.

It was amazing to watch, how they each took turn on the mic, 'guys islam is gonna take over if we dont put an end to it' and similar stuff, there was this one woman who always quoted some asian or malasian or someone's prmie minister and how he said something about 'Infiltrate, populate...' and something and she was like 'see this is what they are doing'
Reply

GARY
11-06-2006, 03:43 AM
There seems to be some very specific details though about the quran teaching that it is ok to decieve nonmuslims in order to gain the advantage.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:45 AM
Hi, Gary

format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
There seems to be some very specific details though about the quran teaching that it is ok to decieve nonmuslims in order to gain the advantage.
Please show me, where we are allowed to lie to non muslims in every day things in order to gain advantage.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Hi, Gary



Please show me, where we are allowed to lie to non muslims in every day things in order to gain advantage.
The wording of your request is interesting. First, in the absence of a denial, I must assume that you agree on some issues at least, it is allowed. Second, these things always seem to be open to interpretation. One muslim tells me it is only in instances of this, while another will say "no, it also includes that".

Anyway, you are more aware I am sure, of the verses in the quran that talk about this. And I am still slow at finding things in the quran. But if you are serious, I will find the verses in question, if you really want me point them out for you.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 04:03 AM
Hi Gary,
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
The wording of your request is interesting. First, in the absence of a denial, I must assume that you agree on some issues at least, it is allowed. Second, these things always seem to be open to interpretation. One muslim tells me it is only in instances of this, while another will say "no, it also includes that".

Anyway, you are more aware I am sure, of the verses in the quran that talk about this. And I am still slow at finding things in the quran. But if you are serious, I will find the verses in question, if you really want me point them out for you.
I didn't take a stance of whether I agree or disagree, I'm just curious as to what verses you meant so that I may take a look at them and read about things, the interpretation thing, well thats something that people can discuss after seeing these verses, or maybe you can open a thread, askin why such differences happen, why some people say you have to raed about this bit in the background and what verses does it aplpy to, so that you may gain better understanding.

Also, I am a learner, a new muslim so am afraid I might not have verses at my fingertips, anyhow, I would be happy to see them when you find them, a word of advise, when you state things, try and have the bak up ready because Islam and Muslims are strict on those things. Anyhow, as for me, take your time :)

Eesa.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Hi Gary,


I didn't take a stance of whether I agree or disagree, I'm just curious as to what verses you meant so that I may take a look at them and read about things, the interpretation thing, well thats something that people can discuss after seeing these verses, or maybe you can open a thread, askin why such differences happen, why some people say you have to raed about this bit in the background and what verses does it aplpy to, so that you may gain better understanding.

Also, I am a learner, a new muslim so am afraid I might not have verses at my fingertips, anyhow, I would be happy to see them when you find them, a word of advise, when you state things, try and have the bak up ready because Islam and Muslims are strict on those things. Anyhow, as for me, take your time :)

Eesa.
I'll dig 'em out. I have to go for a bit (someone in my non-internet real-world is calling me right now).
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thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi thirdwatch. :)


Also, if you believe God punished the people of Lot (peace be upon him.) then realise that you don't have the same authority as God, and you should also not like that act.


And no, islaam is a perfect religion. People may try to distort it, but that will never happen because Allaah Almighty has perfected this religion and chosen to preserve it till the day of judgement.



Peace.

you had quoted verses from the old testament. only sorry sister, but christians don't use the laws of the old testament. so your case is invalid lol. plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.
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جوري
11-06-2006, 05:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
I'll dig 'em out. I have to go for a bit (someone in my non-internet real-world is calling me right now).
Greetings Gary
I am eagerly awaiting those verses as well... so please do hurry back with them....... it is good to back such a heavy claim with evidence rather than leave it open and dancing verbally around it!
peace!
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Rou
11-06-2006, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Actually I don't disagree with parts of your statement. A man fighting against occupying forces is not what I would define as a terrorist. A man detonating a car bomb in an Iraqi market, or fire bombing an Afghan school is a terrorist. The problem is not whether or not Islam supports this (assuming it does not), but that some muslims do.
that makes no sense? to be a muslim you have to follow islam? so.....??

and again to fire bomb innocents if that is you intent is not islamic therefore not to be blamed on the religon?

i have heard of many small groups of men in america who have raped women should we blame that on the religon!? that would make no sense?
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Rou
11-06-2006, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
There seems to be some very specific details though about the quran teaching that it is ok to decieve nonmuslims in order to gain the advantage.
It does not state to deceive unbeleivers expect in war against evil doers...

as a strategy of war not a tool of misconception nor does it state anywhere to lie to unbeleivers about islam that is against all that is islamic...
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 06:19 PM
Hi, and Hope you are well,

I will hopefully just insert my view, not to take over from my Brother Fi_sabililah but rather to just put my input, and when he comes back he may choose to put his own. You replied,

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
you had quoted verses from the old testament. only sorry sister, but christians don't use the laws of the old testament. so your case is invalid lol. plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.
Fi_Sabilillah, was replying to your statement in which you said:

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
I don't think islam is a religion of terror, but i do think that killing gays like some muslims want is just disgusting. and killing apostales is bad. and killing thieves is bad. yes, they may be "sins" but to kill them for it? WOW. i don't see why apostales and gays should be punished, and thieves just need a little rehab.. but not death!

otherwise then the punishments of shar'iah, islam isn't all that bad. it could use a reform [like reform judaism] and i'm sure that will happen sooner or later.
The point of Brother Fi_Sabilillah's post was to show you taht the thing you claimed to be 'disgusting' and 'bad' are actually, also found in a book alot of Christians tend to see as Holy or a such, a book which has captured the words of G-d of previous.

Fi_Sabilillah, I think, and I am positive that you, as you claimed, "but christians don't use the laws of the old testament" do not follow such laws, but to label the punishments in Islam for homosexuality and 'conversion' as 'bad' and 'disgusting' while those same punishments are found on the pages of a book you claim has succesfully captured the Words of G-d is quite hypocritical. I ask you, although you don't follow the laws now, for you claim to be 'under grace' do you believe that when G-d in the Old Testament, provided those laws, that G-d had therefore, instructed His people to act in a bad, and disguisting manner?

That is the whole raeson, I think behind the posting of those verses.

Also, you stated:

plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.
Rather, it is not the slamming of other religions that is the purpose, the only reason, I would use the bible in this scenario is because you as a christian hold that to be a truthful account of G-d throught history and G-d's message to us, thus if I bring you an act or commandent which you condemn in Islam, and show it to you in on the pages of your Scripture, it would cause you to rethink.

You see, Islam is able to stand on it's own 'two feet' it does not need to have anything else to be compared against, but rather, for the sake of simplicity, since you are a christian, it was easier to bring a paralel between the religions.

I hope that is clear, if not please escuse me and point me to my mistakes :)

And I hope Brother Fi_Sabilillah continous to contribute to this beautiful thread, well in my opinion. :)

Peace be upon Jesus son of Mary, and may he be immune from any lies attributed to him.

Eesa. :)
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GARY
11-06-2006, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
It does not state to deceive unbeleivers expect in war against evil doers...

as a strategy of war not a tool of misconception nor does it state anywhere to lie to unbeleivers about islam that is against all that is islamic...
Right, and the interpretation issue comes into play right there. Many muslims interpret daily life (especially after 9-11) as being at war. So in daily life it is ok to smile and pretend to be friends, because it is war. Telling lies to the enemy is ok. That is of course, assuming that this whole "waiting to attack" scenario is true. As stated before, we as nonmuslims have no way to know for sure. And it is not unlikely that at least some are doing this. We have seen it already in past attacks.
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Rou
11-06-2006, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Right, and the interpretation issue comes into play right there. Many muslims interpret daily life (especially after 9-11) as being at war. So in daily life it is ok to smile and pretend to be friends, because it is war. Telling lies to the enemy is ok. That is of course, assuming that this whole "waiting to attack" scenario is true. As stated before, we as nonmuslims have no way to know for sure. And it is not unlikely that at least some are doing this. We have seen it already in past attacks.
have you now? care to state?

and second no the type of lying YOU are reffering to is not advocated in the quran you may bring what vereses you will i will clairfy them for you but you are incorrect in your thought on this matter
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GARY
11-06-2006, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
have you now? care to state?

and second no the type of lying YOU are reffering to is not advocated in the quran you may bring what vereses you will i will clairfy them for you but you are incorrect in your thought on this matter
Wouldn't that be an exercise in futility? I have had these discussions before, and you could be lying, as part of the deception already mentioned. You could present me with very convincing evidence, but it may be just that you are very good at the deception. I have no way of knowing.
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Rou
11-06-2006, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Wouldn't that be an exercise in futility? I have had these discussions before, and you could be lying, as part of the deception already mentioned. You could present me with very convincing evidence, but it may be just that you are very good at the deception. I have no way of knowing.
HAHAH :giggling:

oh my g-d whatever bye...

(uhmm just a statment before i go lol you know when you think people are lying about there facts you have two choices? research or just ignore no need to be afraid lo!?)

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes
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- Qatada -
11-06-2006, 09:07 PM
Gary, you say that us muslims can use deception. If that's true, you're supposed to backup your claim with evidence from authentic islamic sources.


Second - if you think that we're the ones who are using deception, realise that people who don't use religion to direct them in their life - they can easily use deception too. They may use it even more than someone from a faithgroup because these people don't have a system to govern their way of life as a whole.

Therefore that argument is weak, and the same finger can be pointed at anyone.



Peace.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
HAHAH :giggling:

oh my g-d whatever bye...

(uhmm just a statment before i go lol you know when you think people are lying about there facts you have two choices? research or just ignore no need to be afraid lo!?)

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes
Afraid? No, not really. I have nothing to fear even if it is true.

Ps "Couldnt find the verse's huh?" :rollseyes
No, I didn't bother to look. It just is not important to me.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Gary, you say that us muslims can use deception. If that's true, you're supposed to backup your claim with evidence from authentic islamic sources.


Second - if you think that we're the ones who are using deception, realise that people who don't use religion to direct them in their life - they can easily use deception too. They may use it even more than someone from a faithgroup because these people don't have a system to govern their way of life as a whole.

Therefore that argument is weak, and the same finger can be pointed at anyone.


Peace.
I would not be very useful to stumble through the quran finding verses that you are already aware of, just so you can interprete them in a politically correct manner, while I point out the other way to interpret the same verse. It is not like I am making you aware of something for the first time. You are fully aware I am sure that there is a level of mistrust/paranoia that exists in the nonmuslim world. I merely stated that it exists, and have no interest in proving whether it is true or not, I simply am not concerned. True or not, I have nothing to fear. I just don't care.
As for your point about other people using deception, I agree. I never stated that others don't decieve. But you are comparing to those without religion.
As members of a faith, you are supposed to try to stay on higher moral ground. To attempt to justify things by comparing to them is in itself a weak point.
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جوري
11-06-2006, 09:33 PM
No... none of us who read the Quran daily in the mother tongue are aware of such a verse or verses... so please make an honest effort to show us the verse(s)... again instead of dancing around it... can't build high towers without foundation or pillars... and by the same token you can't make an argument on a hypothetical verse.... So I challenge you to find it! and I will offer every already out there translation for it links included and nothing of my own words, or anything in the way of political correctness!
Peace
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- Qatada -
11-06-2006, 09:34 PM
I think what you're referring to is the idea of deception in the context of fighting against the enemy in battle. Muslims are allowed to use deception then, and i don't know of any other circumstances. If you think i'm lying to you, then that's upto you because i can simply say the same.

I can compare this idea of deception (in the battlefield) to how non muslims are, because combat is done by both sides. And if one is honest to the enemy - then that can bring loss and put the muslims in danger. Therefore it is permissible within them circumstances.



Muslims have high morals compared to any other faith, and these morals were introduced over 1420 years ago, yet these are still more advanced than the immorality we see in todays society.

Justifying things by comparing is done to show the contrast between X and Y, it explains how one is better than the other, and it explains its benefits compared to the others disadvantages.



It's easy to say that a certain religion says so and so, then blaming that party without introducing evidence in the first place. Any sane person will ask you for evidence for your claim, so please try doing that next time insha'Allaah.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I think what you're referring to is the idea of deception in the context of fighting against the enemy in battle. Muslims are allowed to use deception then, and i don't know of any other circumstances. If you think i'm lying to you, then that's upto you because i can simply say the same.
I don't actually think anyone is lying to me. I simply acknowledge the possibility. I am not really concerned one way or the other. And yes, you are right. I could also be lying to you. I could be setting you up right now (see the black van parked out on the street?). It is possible. What do you think?

format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Muslims have high morals compared to any other faith,
Wrong. The moral code of muslims is no higher than others. This time you are making the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

True, these days it seems that many from other faiths are losing their morality, but that is a personal choice, and they are just more open about it than muslims. Muslims just hide it more.

Example: A few years ago, I lived in a different part of the world, and worked at a factory. At this factory, the workforce was divided about equally between muslims and others. I had the opportunity to get to know many muslims. I met some really wonderful people, and some real jerks (I am sure one guy really was a terrorist).

What I found interesting was the atmosphere of oppression that they placed on each other. When they were together they behaved much differently then when I was alone with them.

Some would speak of lustful things and pornography, but say "don't tell the others". Some would eat food with me that they were not allowed to eat, "don't tell the others." Some would drink beer and other alcohol, "don't tell the others".

I did not tell the others. But it was so silly, each one was doing things that they didn't want the others to know about. If they were not living in this oppressive manner and were just honest, they would realize that they were all really quite the same. Nobody is perfect. We all sin.

Anyway, so no. Muslims do not have higher morals. They just hide things more.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-06-2006, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Afraid? No, not really. I have nothing to fear even if it is true.

No, I didn't bother to look. It just is not important to me.
In other words...ignorance :giggling:
Don't say things when u cant back it up. If you chose to, bring evidence, not a bunch of rambling words without base.
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جوري
11-06-2006, 10:25 PM
sure they have higher morals... all you have to do is look at the crusades and how Muslims dealt with the POW compared to the enemy... salah Adeen Alayoubi's war manners were exemplary... instead of butchering them he let them go........ compare that to an enemy that was said to be swimming in Muslim blood... Please read a little history from a non-political point of view... you'll see under the Muslim empires how well the enemies were treated.... I believe bros Ansar had a pretty amazing post here about it... and I think fi and others could probably locate it with more dexterity than I......... You want to speak of deception even to very close in modern day... look at how England used to go into towns assuming peaceful means only to torch villages... and open fire on peace demonstrators.... colonized half the world to steal their wealth... rather than inmpart enlightenment
-- sry you had a poor experience with a "hundred or two" but that hardly speaks for Islam or the 1.4 billion Muslims... it only speaks of your experience which for all intensive purposes probably has two sides......... I have known Muslims who know nothing of Islam short of how to spell it since it is on their birth certificate... that hardly should speak for islam......
Peace
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Hijrah
11-06-2006, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
you had quoted verses from the old testament. only sorry sister, but christians don't use the laws of the old testament. so your case is invalid lol. plus i don't see the significans in slamming down other religions to make yours seem not bad or something.
Yet Jesus himself said in the NT that he had come to fulfill the old laws, not abolish them
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GARY
11-06-2006, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
sure they have higher morals... all you have to do is look at the crusades and how Muslims dealt with the POW compared to the enemy... salah Adeen Alayoubi's war manners were exemplary... instead of butchering them he let them go........ compare that to an enemy that was said to be swimming in Muslim blood... Please read a little history from a non-political point of view... Peace
Without giving too much information about myself (I choose not to), I can only assure you that I am aware of both history and current events, and have always made a point of trying to find the truth behind the bias. I would also like to assure you, that the same way that I come to this muslim forum asking the hard questions, I also grind on other groups/religions. I am fair, in a 'not patronizing to anyone' kind of way.
So, having said that. Where should I read my history from? Islamic texts? Jewish texts? Texts written by european scholars? Or american scholars? Perhaps I should not forget the point of view of those in asia and throughout the pacific rim.
We must always read between the lines.
Muslim recorded history speaks of muslim honor and integrity. This of course conflicts with other records of muslim massacres. Don't ask for sources, it is pointless. you will claim that the sources are biased, and I will agree. So are the muslim sources, it is just the world we live in. Let it be enough to say that the sources on both sides will have different accounts of what happened. It is up to the reader to seek both and try to decide where the truth lies, which is usually somewhere between both accounts.

........ You want to speak of deception even to very close in modern day... look at how England used to...
Once again, I will say, I never said noone else uses deception. All of mankind does. Always has, likely always will.
But why is it such a common defense on this forum when faced with an ugly truth, to say "Oh yeah? well look at that guy! What about him!?"
What about him? We are talking about you right now. We can get to him later.
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جوري
11-06-2006, 11:10 PM
You are not presenting me with any truth?.... I too can assure you!........ I am well aware what goes on in the world and I am well aware of what happens in the name of Islam by Muslims...

--Books I have learned from given that I am an American were text books curriculum mandated by the schools and colleges I attended..... and I think they relayed a picture "history chanel" type without the inflammatory anecdotes that we are all so accustomed to on the news... Tons of socities and civilizations had their rise and fall, had their good and evil... Hopefully the bigger picture should be more telling than the actions of a few?

I always find however that you start with a scathing comment and don't care to carry it all the way... such as with the verse from the Quran or now with the "don't bother"... if we are here to learn from one another with no ulterior motives then what is the point if you don't back up what you are saying... in the very least as an awakening for fellow Muslims of what others think of their behavior so they can improve....

personally....I don't feel accused of anything by virtue of being a Muslim, In fact I am grateful and proud to be one.... Nothing on the news or stated by another human being will make me feel bad about that... as I am Muslim by choice!... I believe I am a good person and a contributing member to society... I try to do my best in accordance with my moral compass which I base from religious teachings... I have friends from all denominations and I haven't heard a complaint yet... on occasion there will be a constructive critisicm, never in the way of religion... which I do appreciate to help better my person! .... but I don't see why I should be on trial or judged somehow or any other person here or in the world by virtue of being a Muslim? Also, I don't see how people who can only speculate on the primary sources of Islam should have their views revered as the new fecund manifesto.... Unless you were there to witness... or have a primary source (recorded history book)... everything else around it is speculative with a dash of opinion which is surely driven by something... zeal or hatred it is all the same......... There are multiple sides to every story and someone as learned as you surely must know the more variables you add to a formula the more complicated.....
peace Gary
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GARY
11-06-2006, 11:51 PM
PurestAmbrosia,
Excellent post. Intelligent and thought-provoking, just the way I like it. (I admit my own fall short of this - sigh.) I have little to comment on as your post says enough.

This point I would like to discuss.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
.....don't care to carry it all the way... such as with the verse from the Quran or now with the "don't bother"...
If you would really like me to point out some historical texts that state that muslims have committed atrocities in war I will. I was not attempting to be evasive, I merely found it pointless to provide sources that you will obviously disagree with, only to have you claim my source is biased. You and I have access to the internet, and can google up anything to support our statements. We both know that most sources are biased.

I know you still want me to give you something, so I will point out "The Massacres of the Khilafah" by Walter Short. It is an examination of massacres committed by muslims during the Ottoman Caliphate. It speaks of muslim forces slaughtering, plundering, and enslaving multitudes of Christians.

Do you want more?
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جوري
11-07-2006, 12:22 AM
Not many people liked the ottomans including Muslims themselves (Syria, Egypt) lost some of their best not to mention they were stripped of their own armies so when came time for British invasion, they were rendered helpless, against the brits the ottomans themselves sold to foreign invaders.

I have read a great deal many awful things they have done... Muslims as well suffered under their reign... you might be surprised that even though sadam seems a murderer by all standards Iraqis have suffered worse on the hands of their rulers. (Al-Hajaj) being one the worst...however some of the best ages of enlightenment happened under Muslim rule and not all ottomans were bad... I think if there were an ottoman empire today the Muslim world wouldn't be in the state that it is in.... even the undefeated Peter the Great had to retreat to the ottomans........

As for massacres of the khilafaha it seems shady to me... I haven't read it to judge it... but it doesn't spark my interest just by virtue of it being a non-primary source.... and not because I want an Islamic source but there are tons of books popping up nowadays and their interest is very apparent to me. their mantra is pushing for an Armageddon If it weren't recorded in history then I don't care really for someone speculating based on something he read. A Mr. short hardly seems like a qualified name unless he were omnipotent and witnessed all from 1400 years ago first hand... In fact I challenge him to come up with something original that wasn't based on an Islamic source or heresy from secondary sources whose soul benefit is to see the fall of Islam... there were tons of missionaries and popes(urbane) whose soul purpose was to conjure up lies and pass them as truth, and for obvious reasons... the same reasons by the way that lead them to pop a thousand websites trying to find error in the Quran... ... I have already read about the khalifs including some bad ones (mawya) being a cunning one himself wasn't much liked even amongst Muslims....... and I am well aware of what they have done... it doesn't surprise me one bit everyone trying to jump on the band wagon of how awful the Muslims are or were.... in fact you can say it is expected......
I can't say the above two sources are very supportive no... to each his own? everyone will eventually seek what fosters their train of thoughts.... which reminds me of a story I once read... two young men came to a scholar after having gone on a trip to Lebanon... the scholar asked the first... son how was your trip... the young man stated... it was awful... fll of lewedness, full of prostitues, full of debuachery and immorality....... and the scholar said ( you are right my son Lebanon is indeed full of all those things....
the second young man begged to differ... he stated he found people to be kind. hospitable, a school and a library on every corner, and virtous people... the scholar again stated... son you are right... Lebanon is indeed full of decency and kindness and knowledge to be sought.... both the young man looked at him with astonishment... How can we both be right? one asked... Scholar stated... each of you found what you were seeking......... and with that I bid you good night........

peace!
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GARY
11-07-2006, 01:09 AM
*sigh* Just the reaction I mentioned, that is why I didn't want to bother. Although there is a shred of common ground between what I was trying to say and this last post of yours - which is encouraging - the fact remains that whatever source I might provide, something will be wrong with it. I could have mention the works of Thomas F. Madden, that would have been too "crusaderish". Had I dug something up written by *insert name here* it would have been too ....*insert reason here* .....
It as I was trying to say, why bother?
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جوري
11-07-2006, 01:31 AM
If you wanted to read a book about Byzantine art would you read a book written by Robin Cormack or by Ahmed deedat?
If you wanted to attend a lecture about the life and works of Rothko would you attend the Walters or the Cairo Museum?
If you wanted to learn of Judaism would you attend a synagogue or a Mosque?
If you wanted to see an original Georgia O'keefe would you attend the Metropolitan Museum or the metropolitan opera?
If you wanted to learn of Nuclear Medicine in Tropical and Infectious Diseases would you start with a purchase of a genetics book?
if we are too predictable would you still frequent this forum or take your efforts else where, with like minds and where it will be better appreciated?

Once you answer between you and yourself at least a few of the above truthfully then we can proceed... otherwise you are right... I don't know?....why do you bother?
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GARY
11-07-2006, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
If you wanted to read a book about Byzantine art would you read a book written by Robin Cormack or by Ahmed deedat?
If you wanted to attend a lecture about the life and works of Rothko would you attend the Walters or the Cairo Museum?
If you wanted to learn of Judaism would you attend a synagogue or a Mosque?
If you wanted to see an original Georgia O'keefe would you attend the Metropolitan Museum or the metropolitan opera?
If you wanted to learn of Nuclear Medicine in Tropical and Infectious Diseases would you start with a purchase of a genetics book?
if we are too predictable would you still frequent this forum or take your efforts else where, with like minds and where it will be better appreciated?

Once you answer between you and yourself at least a few of the above truthfully then we can proceed... otherwise you are right... I don't know?....why do you bother?
I read your post and at the risk of being rude, I must say, that after all the reasonable and intelligent conversation you have engaged in, that is a pile of self-righteous nonsense.
I challenge you, if it is so easy, to present even one source that we can both agree upon. It is an unlikely feat.
I would have thought that you were enlightened enough to realize that your examples of topics and subsequent choices of source information are a question of one's own perspective. In other words, I could have asked the same questions. But out of respect for what I thought was an obvious mutual understanding that biased sources and one's own perspective are key issues in any such discussion, I avoided asking such nonsense of you. In a nutshell, what I purposely avoided asking you, is precisely what you asked me. That is to realize that my perspective is the right one, and you must accept my point of view as such before we can make any progress.

Nonsense. I have had many good conversations where we both benefitted while understanding that we didn't see things the same way.

One point;
if we are too predictable would you still frequent this forum or take your efforts else where, with like minds and where it will be better appreciated?
The point why I am here should be obvious. I am making an attempt to get past the one-sided views of the immediate world around me, and see things from a different perspective. And yes, I will ask some difficult questions. I have found that some muslims are very intolerant to people like me asking questions. I have tried to beat around the bush before, but was still met with hostility. So I don't bother anymore I just get to the point and ask what I want to know.
I have found many muslims to be intolerant to the idea that they might be wrong in any aspect of their thinking, no matter how small the detail.
So, having said that, many exchanges that could have been mutually beneficial, ended up only benefitting me. The other person involved missed the chance to learn. Which is of course fine by me, but it is a little frustrating at times.
Reply

جوري
11-07-2006, 03:07 AM
I don't think I have offered you any books to read? short of an honest query... if you wanted to get the most distilled understanding of those whom according to you needing to get " past the one-sided views of the immediate world around" you... which sources would you choose? those that support western mantra? or those with a first hand account? --You seem to think or at least I am getting the notion that you think we do nothing but sing the praises of our khalifs even though according to some very "scholarly" people they were blood thirsty murders....

I believe in the justice that existed in the early Muslim empires... the Justice that enabled a woman to take to court the 2nd khalif (Omar Ibn Ilkhtab) for supposedly causing her a spontaneous abortion, and winning charges against him for unmediated (2nd degree murder).... Simply for stating when he walked he had a presence and took her by surprise that she lost her baby....

The same system where the 4th Khalif Ali RA...was robbed by a Jew, and couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a judge that it was in fact his sword and not stolen and so was awarded to the robber--- who though I digress converted to Islam from the dignity with which he was treated.... Does Mr. Short mention any of this in his book about the khalifs? I admit I am ignorant as to what is in it ... but I am not ignorant of the events that took place.... I don't know why you'd get the notion that Islamic books would describe folks untruthfully, disguising the truth or sugar coating it?... but a Mr. Thomas or a MR. Short's book wouldn't?

Does Mr Short mention how pre Islam female infanticide was common to that region and triabal? and that the Khalif Omar Ibn Ilkhtab RA had burried a daughter alive.... and that when he recatned he would cry remembering how she would wipe the sand from his beard while he was digging her grave? Does Mr. Short give you a humanistic picture of their lives bad or good?.... or were they all just blood thirsy pillagers? Does he mention at all what Arabia was like pre-ISlam and what the muslim empires did for the region, including such places as Egypt who would have easily fallen to foreign invaders as was the norm throughout the entire history of Egypt?

I know a great deal of westerners think we are just driven toward Islam like controlled sheep because we are born into it and are brain washed to think a certain way.... but it isn't the truth... if it were, there would be no reason holding those of us who live in the west back from being whatever we wanted to be moreover there wouldn't be so many of us Willingly and freely converting... and another surprising fact is that 4 out of every 5 converts are women... if Islam were as opressive toward women why would a great deal of reasonably intelligent human beings hang on to what seems to others like rotten principals or walk toward it freely? We are not all the country oafs they paint us and neither is Islam...

were there less than stellar people in the history of the Muslim world... You bet... Islam isn't responsible for how the Mongols who became Muslim perceive ISlam, as the Muslim world in and of itself fell to Mongolian conquest......... please just think a little about the reason to such books... far be it from me to tell you what to read... but consider the source if you wanted an unbiased view....

Lastly, I don't think two people in the same family share the same views or have an identical feelings or experience.......let alone the diverse muslims from all over.... Omar Ibn Ilkhtab and Abu Baker RA were as different in nature as can be... one very gentle and mellow, the other very avant-garde and stern... both pillars for the muslim world in spite of their differences ......
well I said my two cents
peace!
Reply

GARY
11-07-2006, 03:19 AM
Without getting into the whole biased source discussion again, do you agree that muslim forces in history are guilty of at least "some" atrocities, or totally disagree altogether?
Western recorded history is wrong, and muslim scholars got it 100% right? Or a somewhat more realistic view that it is likely somewhere in between?
Reply

جوري
11-07-2006, 03:27 AM
if you would read above you'd find your answer........
Mongols were pillagers they invaded the Muslim world... they became Muslim... they carried some of their practices... same goes for the Turks (old habits die hard?).... I will not blame Islam for the actions of some Muslims who find it to shake their old ways... given that even Muslims suffered on their hands..... I don't know any Muslim scholar or historian that would disagree with the said sentences......... I like specific incidents though... not conjured up lies.......
I don't know any sane human that can classify others as all bad or all good for all time... unless they were edging upon bipolar and exhibited other symptoms of splitting?........ I can't believe what you are asking sometimes......
Reply

Woodrow
11-07-2006, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Without getting into the whole biased source discussion again, do you agree that muslim forces in history are guilty of at least "some" atrocities, or totally disagree altogether?
Western recorded history is wrong, and muslim scholars got it 100% right? Or a somewhat more realistic view that it is likely somewhere in between?
A difficult concept to understand. There have been throughout history people who called themselves Muslim, but did not follow Islam.

"do you agree that muslim forces in history are guilty "

I will agree that some forces in history called themselves Muslim, but that did not mean they acted as Muslims.
Reply

جوري
11-07-2006, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A difficult concept to understand. There have been throughout history people who called themselves Muslim, but did not follow Islam.

"do you agree that muslim forces in history are guilty "

I will agree that some forces in history called themselves Muslim, but that did not mean they acted as Muslims.
:sl:
Very well said..... I have already stated above... of the actions of Mongols and Turks... the presence of the former devestated the Abbasaid empire....... yet they later converted........ Why should we be responsible for their lack of understanding of war ethics or Islam?... or have the entire people be labeled since it is a free for all?
:w:
Reply

GARY
11-07-2006, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
........ I can't believe what you are asking sometimes......
What do you think I am asking?
A more important question might be, why am I asking it?
I ask such a thing because so many people on this forum deal in absolutes. "The crusaders were 100% bad. Muslim armies always were good to the people they conquered. Etc..." I ask you to see where your thinking lies. You say you can't believe what I am asking, but I don't know you. We have never met and I know nothing about you. So the only way to find out is to ask. Your previous posts carried a hint of what your thinking was, but the answer was lost in the semantics and technicalities of our discussion. I wanted clarification. That is why I ask what I ask.
Reply

GARY
11-07-2006, 03:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A difficult concept to understand. There have been throughout history people who called themselves Muslim, but did not follow Islam.

"do you agree that muslim forces in history are guilty "

I will agree that some forces in history called themselves Muslim, but that did not mean they acted as Muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
:sl:
Very well said..... I have already stated above... of the actions of Mongols and Turks... the presence of the former devestated the Abbasaid empire....... yet they later converted........ Why should we be responsible for their lack of understanding of war ethics or Islam?... or have the entire people be labeled since it is a free for all?
:w:
These are not things that have eluded me. The points made here are obvious. It still sidesteps the real question of do you believe that muslim forces never behaved improperly. I don't mean people that thought they were muslim but were not, I mean bonified, most of the time well behaving, muslims. Do you feel they never committed atrocities?
Reply

جوري
11-07-2006, 03:54 AM
well I hope amidst my semantics you got your answers
atrocities were recorded by Muslims as well... Turks used to take some people to the town center and stuff them after they had killed them to make an example out of.... Iraq had its share of tyrants... what they have done to the people is unspeakable... it is also Unislamic......

I hope for your sake and on any forum you visit that you consider the age and the level of education of those who correspond with you... else you will form a very obtuse view... There are people here as young as 13... although I have met with some very wise 13 year olds I don't think a person articulates the same way at 13 the way they do at 25... and well, knowledge is something we are all ever in its quest....

peace
Reply

جوري
11-07-2006, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
These are not things that have eluded me. The points made here are obvious. It still sidesteps the real question of do you believe that muslim forces never behaved improperly. I don't mean people that thought they were muslim but were not, I mean bonified, most of the time well behaving, muslims. Do you feel they never committed atrocities?
That is a difficult question....
1- to commit an atrocity or torture is truly unislamic ... there is a Hadith about those who never even smell heaven... and it is men who use torture methods to hurts others....... and the second part of the hadith is about women who were see through garments......

so you can see why we easily conclude that those who do aren't muslim even if they think they are.... most of us believe that the egyptian president or syrian one or most arabic ones who open torture methods on people aren't Muslim.... but we can't label them as such because ultimately we believe it is up to God to declare who is a Muslim and who isn't....it becomes encumbent upon men to overthrow such people.... but they can't... the greatest form of Jihad then is a word spoken against them......

are these people bonifide Muslims? they tend to think they are? they look like they go to mosques with the people? they sit in the middle out of fear of being shot... but we will all return to God anyway and they will have to answer for their ills...
peace
Reply

GARY
11-07-2006, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I hope for your sake and on any forum you visit that you consider the age and the level of education of those who correspond with you... else you will form a very obtuse view... There are people here as young as 13... although I have met with some very wise 13 year olds I don't think a person articulates the same way at 13 the way they do at 25... peace
Thank you for reminding me of this. For a while I didn't realize how young some members here were. And even since, I often forget. It certainly changes one's view on a discussion when you realize that the person you have just spoke for an hour with is a child. (LOL! It has been humbling a time or two.)
Reply

GARY
11-07-2006, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Wouldn't that be an exercise in futility? I have had these discussions before, and you could be lying, as part of the deception already mentioned. You could present me with very convincing evidence, but it may be just that you are very good at the deception. I have no way of knowing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Rou
HAHAH :giggling:

oh my g-d whatever bye...
I know, you are right. If there was any plot, the people in charge would certainly not trust you with that kind of information.
Reply

Rou
11-07-2006, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I think what you're referring to is the idea of deception in the context of fighting against the enemy in battle. Muslims are allowed to use deception then, and i don't know of any other circumstances. If you think i'm lying to you, then that's upto you because i can simply say the same.

I can compare this idea of deception (in the battlefield) to how non muslims are, because combat is done by both sides. And if one is honest to the enemy - then that can bring loss and put the muslims in danger. Therefore it is permissible within them circumstances.



Muslims have high morals compared to any other faith, and these morals were introduced over 1420 years ago, yet these are still more advanced than the immorality we see in todays society.

Justifying things by comparing is done to show the contrast between X and Y, it explains how one is better than the other, and it explains its benefits compared to the others disadvantages.



It's easy to say that a certain religion says so and so, then blaming that party without introducing evidence in the first place. Any sane person will ask you for evidence for your claim, so please try doing that next time insha'Allaah.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

A good reply but brother there are people who are genuinly lost and others who wish to stay lost and dont want to as would be "bother" to even know the facts they prefer the lie so they keep it wether it is fact or not i personally have no time for people like that and say that we as muslimsshould try are best to explain however not waste our time where it is not needed eg to those who are in blatent denial.
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